POL00044633
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Summary of Tape
Recorded Interview
Person Janet Louise SKINNER (JS) Exhibit No:
Interviewed Number of pages: 16
Place of Bransholme Police Station
Interview Hull Signature of
interviewing officer
Date of 15* June 2006
Interview
Time 14.12 hours Time 14.56
commenced concluded
Duration of 44 minutes Tape 043367
interview reference no
Interviewing Diane MATTHEWS (DM)
Officer(s) Stephen BRADSHAW (SB)
Other persons
present
Tape Person Text
counter I speaking
times
0.00 SB Recautioned
Legal rights CS001 resigned at 14.13 hours
JS You asked if there was still shortages and there was still
shortages in Katherine Ayres stock unit
DM When was that
JS December. That shortage was there all the time she was
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on sick
DM How much was it for was that the £1,400
JS Yes
DM Was that shown in the accounts
JS Yes
3.49 DM On this one from November to December you have got a
gain of £178
DM So there is no shortage declared
JS Yeah I know because I didn’t declare it. She was paying it
back at £10 a week then she would, in the safe at work
there was a white Lisahally bag and in that bag it
contained Katherines pieces of paper with all her
shortages on. What she added up, when she paid it off
she put a tick on it and add the money in it. Now that bag
has gone. Now I have searched the office for it the other
day and I cannot find that bag and that had all the bits of
paper in when she had been ticking off money or when
she had been putting money back into the bag or when
she had been taking it back out of the bag. So if her son
walks up to the counter and said mam can you lend me
£20, she was giving him the £20 but what I didn’t know
was she was knocking it off the piece of paper cos I found
this bag the other month and I tried to find it the other day
and I couldn't find it.
DM She had accepted that the shortage for one reason or
another was in her stock and she agreed to pay it back at
£10 whatever a week
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JS Yes
DM That money was going in a Lisahally bag in the safe along
with some form of a record what was paid back
JS Yes
DM Right, that £1,400 when did that, when did she have that
loss
5.24 JS Not last November, the November of the year before
DM So November 2004
JS Yes
DM So from November 2004, when you were on weekly cash
accounts, have you shown that £1,400
JS No
5.37 DM What have you been doing with that £1,400
JS She was just adding it as if she had it there
DM She was adding it
JS Yes
DM Was that under your instructions to do that
JS Well I said to her she had to clear it and she said I haven’t
got it. So she said can I just add it onto my cash and I
said yes but it needs to be cleared because if I get an
audit, its going be my who gets into trouble not you and
then Theresa balanced £494 short but I shown that
shortage because it seemed a lot not to shown so I
shown that.
5.57 DM Why did £498 seem a lot not to show but £1,400 wasnt
JS Because she had only been in for 1 day
DM Who had
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JS Theresa
DM But you only have to serve for 10 minutes and you can
make a mistake
JS Its just that they asked me to show it show the shortage to
see if an error notice came back for it
DM Who asked you to show it
JS Theresa did
DM What was different between that one and the £1,400
JS Because it was a mistake that she had made over a
couple of weeks
6.38 DM Do you believe that was a mistake or do you believe it a
loan of money
JS I don’t believe it was a mistake
DM So you think she loaned some money
JS Yes because she was too easy to take the £10 here and
put the £10 back
DM Did you ask her if she had taken the money
JS Yes
DM And what did she say
6.58 JS Im not that sort of person and cried
DM So did you give her any authority to borrow £1,400
JS No
DM But if this is going back to November 2004, as you have
indicated with the £7,500 in January you said that you
spread that between the £10 and £20
JS Yes
DM And to cover the loss not to show it in your account and
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here we have got a £1,400 that is being covered up in the
same way is that correct
SB Yes
DM If that is being covered up by Katherine Ayres is she
working under your instructions to do that until she pays
until the £1,400 in that Lisahally bag and to put it back in
JS Yes
DM Did you know that was wrong
JS Yes I did
DM And that to falsifying an accounting document like Steve
said earlier is a criminal offence
7.54 JS Well I dint know but
DM And we have already discussed the reason for the balance
and how you deal with your losses and gains
8.06 JS Yeah I know but she just expected me to pay it back
DM But if you cant pay it back we do have procedures in place
for you to contact somebody. Did you contact somebody
over the £1,400
JS No.
DM Lets just go to this £1,400, when did Katherine Ayres go off
sick
8.28 JS June 2005
DM So from Nov 04 to June 05 was £1,400
JS Still outstanding
DM Still being added
JS Yes
DM When she went off sick in June, is she paid when she is off
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sick
JS Paid Statuary sick pay
DM Not full pay. Was she full time
JS At the time she was doing 31 hours now she is doing 25,
26
DM So on 31 hours how much would she earn
JS £130
DM When she was being off sick was any money being added
to the Lisahally bag
JS No, she didn’t come near the office
SB discusses the repayment of money into the Lisahally
bag.
SB Katherine Ayres couldn't pay it back all in one go, she was
paying back so much each week £10 or £20
14.15 JS Yes
SB She was inflating the cash on your instructions
JS Yes
SB To cover the shortage
JS Yes
SB This £10 or £20 was going in the bag
JS Yes
SB She went sick in June
JS Yes
SB 7 months later which is 28 weeks. So even allowing for
taking a bit back there is £200. What happened to that
£200 she had paid back
15.04 JS There was nothing in the bag
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SB So what I just cant work out is you have got somebody
paying money back to you because your responsible at the
end of the day its your cash out of your pocket that should
of made that loss good
JS Yes
SB She is paying you back £10 a week , £20 a week
JS She was paying it back to herself
SB You have got £1,400, so in November 05 sorry November
04 you have got £1,400 that hadn’t been paid back. When
did you make that good
JS It hasn't
SB So it hasn’t has it
JS No
15.45 SB So between November 04 and June 05 how long was she
off for
JS She came back Christmas week. She came back as her
sick pay ran out
SB Discussion over sick payment takes place
SB What losses occurred between November 04 and June 05
when she was off
JS Not a great deal
SB So she had £1,400 then nothing done between that time
JS They just balanced themselves off up and down
SB But nothing major
JS No
SB There is £1,400 November, Then Nov 04 to June 05 ok.
June 05 to Dec 05 what were the balances like
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JS Still not too bad
SB Not too bad because the person you mistrusted was still off
so was ok then. Then between Dec 05 and May 06 you
have a discrepancy of give or take a little bit of £59,000
17.46 JS Yes
SB £1,400 each and every account since November 04 till you
found your first loss in January 06 is covered, that has been
inflated
JS Yes
SB So for over 12 months you have inflated your cash and
falsified documents
JS Yes
SB So the £7,500 wasn’t £7,500 going missing in January was
it as you already had £1,400 and whatever other ones you
hadn't bothered telling us about that you have had a loss
between November 04 and Jan 06 isnt it
17.58 JS Yes
SB I don’t think you have made any losses good
JS Yes I have
SB When was the last time you made a loss good
JS I don’t know
SB How much was it for
JS I cant remember
SB Was it during last year
JS Yes
Discussion on losses takes place
SB By your own admission you have not made your shortages
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good £1,400 has been outstanding since Nov 04
JS But it wasn’t my outstanding shortage
SB Sorry, who is the subpostmisstress, who is responsible for
making the losses good
20.39 JS That is the only thing that im bothered about. You can
investigate me as much as you want I don’t care I have got
nothing to hide you can search my house you can rip it
apart you can do the same with my bank account for the
past 5 years I have nothing to hide what so ever. The only
thing that bothers me is the fact that somebody going to be
held responsible for that and that someone is me
DM And why is it going to be you
JS Because it should have been my responsibility and it
should have been something I dealt with in the beginning
and I know that and that goes through my head every day.
And if I could answer for that sort of money I would answer.
I know that I can prove I haven't stolen any money. I aint a
thief
21.00 SB How do we know you haven't stolen that money
JS I know I haven't. I can sleep at night knowing I haven't
SB We have got £59,000 shortage in your accounts. You have
offered no explanation as to where that moneys gone. You
have got a £1,400 loss, everything is hunky dory for 12
months
JS No it isn’t hunky dory, I couldn’t force the woman to pay the
money that she didn’t have cos that’s all it is I couldn't force
her she didn’t have the money all she kept saying was she
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didn’t have the money
SB But you rewarded her by giving her the keys to come into
the office
JS Yeah I know only because the customers were complaining
that I was arriving at work late
DM Let me just. We have to start off with £7,500 and see how
we get to £59,000 because we need to know
JS I don’t know how it got to £59,000
22.28 DM So you say it went to £9,500
JS It just kept going up
DM You were in branch trading and you say you only declare
your cash once a month
JS Yes
DM So if that’s January, £7,500 and February £9,500 what was
March
JS It just kept going up
22.41 DM Well it’s like Steve has said it’s £50,000 March, April May in
3 cash accounts £50,000 its like £18,000 a month
JS Yeah I know
DM When you realise these figures were getting out of control
what did you do
JS Started throwing up, just felt physically sick
DM But what did you do in terms of
JS Look I know I am , that I have to take responsibility, the
only thing that I will take ,I will take responsibility for my
own negligence for not doing anything about it but I will not
take responsibility for the safe
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DM It's like we explained, we are here to find the truth, we are
here to find the facts of what has gone on at an office that
has lost nearly £60,000 in 5 months
JS Yeah I know
DM It's an awful lot of money
JS It’s a flippin hell of a lot of money
DM And that’s what we are after finding out, now we are asking
you the question have you stolen the £60,000
JS No
DM Right, what’s happened to it
23.33 JS If I had an answer I would tell you
DM Why do you think it’s Katherine Ayres. Do you think
Katherine Ayres has taken £60,000. If you haven’t taken it
somebody has. Would you agree with that
JS Yes
DM Somebody has taken £60,000
JS Somebody has taken the money. Money does not and I tell
you how I feel. I feel like I have been putting the money in
the safe and someone has been taking it out of the back.
That’s how I feel
DM What have you done to stop that happening
24.10 JS Nothing
DM Right would you agree that some of the responsibility for
the money going, although you haven't stolen it you have
done nothing to stop it either
JS I know
DM And the person you deem responsible you have given keys
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too. They have got the run of the office. There is nothing
stopping them from coming in taking £20,000 then running
back home and putting it in there house, there only across
the road.
JS Its like anybody friend and everybody says don’t trust
anybody. The only two people I do trust are Theresa
Holmes and Colleen Kates and it’s purely because I took
them for 2 other offices. We have worked together before
DM Why didn’t you let them have the keys
JS Because Colleen was on the sick
DM And what about the other girl
JS Theresa didn’t work the hours for opening, she only works
16 hours
DM If it was me, this was my office and I was seeing money
walk out of that safe and you haven't got a clue, in my mind
I know ive not taken it so they have got to be, money just
doesn’t disappear there has got to be a reason and the first
thing I would do is get the keys of her
25.32 JS I didn’t mind coming here or coming without anyone with
me or come here without a solicitor because I know that I
didn’t physically take that money. This is why I don’t mind
being here, I know that I am not a thief
DM But where is it
25.41 JS I really don’t know
DM Because who do you think is now responsible for paying it
back
JS It's going to be me innit. Its me who responsible for it, but I
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have to prove the fact that I haven’t got that money
DM But what evidence have you got to say Katherine’s had it
JS I haven't, I haven’t got any evidence for anybody
DM Has Katherine spent an awful lot of money lately
JS I don’t Know because she was off sick but the only thing
she said to me in December when she came back she
needed to earn over £100 because she had no money
because she had been on sick. Now 4 weeks she came in
and gave me £500 to take off her £1,400 shortage
JS I put it back into the cash
JS talks about where the white bag in
SB When they were on individual stocks how did they get the
money
JS I transferred it in and out
SB So you transferred the money in and out and you kept
control of the cash at the time in the individual stocks.
JS Yes
SB You now go onto one stock unit, the shared stock unit,
what about the money
27.33 JS They each, just in the safe, if they need it they get it.
SB So why are you changing all your procedures
JS Because I was short staffed. When Katherine went off sick
and Theresa was on holiday I basically worked that office
on my own so I had to take on somebody else but couldn't
train them to put them on an individual stock unit
SB You have changed the system completely and suddenly
lost £60,000 so how do we know you haven't stolen the
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money
JS You don't
SB Have you got something against Katherine
JS No
SB Because its her name that has kept repeated about all this
money going
JS No its because its always been mistakes that shes made
SB So was the safe door always open
JS No they just put the key in turn the lock and unlock it
30.46 SB And where were you
JS Depends if I was there or not. I only work half day Mon,
Tues Wed and Thurs. I was off Friday and Saturday
SB So you really didn’t work very much did you. You were
basically a Part Time Subpostmisstress
31.40 JS No you cant really say that did you
SB Well half day Mon Tues Wed Thurs, with Fri Sat off
JS Pay someone to work it for me
SB Have you paid someone as an officer in charge
JS No you employ clerks to serve the customers and do what
they want behind. So you have got no control what so ever
within that Post Office. You don’t know what goes on so for
all this it could have been Katherine you were hardly there.
You turned up late by your own admission
32.57 JS Yeah
SB And you went home early, half day, you didn’t do a full day
JS No
SB What time did you leave
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JS 2
SB So you were hardly there were you
JS No
DM Who did your ONCH each night
JS We didn’t do the ONCH
DM talks about visit with Diane Hoyles
DM Does any of the staff know what is going on
JS Yes sort off
DM What do you mean by sort of
34.05 JS Well ive told . They know what is going on because the
Office is closed
DM But before that, before Diane and Julia came to your office,
was any of the other people there aware that there was a
shortage in the office that was being accounted for
JS Not that I know of no.
DM On the last branch trading statement trading statement 2
which is DM4 this covers the period 26" April to 25" May. I
will just show you that. First of all is that your signature
JS Yes
DM £151.99 short so this was last week. Did you put the
cheque in for that
JS I put cash in for it
DM So cash has gone in for it
JS Yes
35.56 DM So when Steve said when was the last time you made a
shortage good it would have been 25/5 because you have
put that money back
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JS Yes
DM Do you mind just reading out the cash on hand figure for
me there
JS £65,045.85
DM Is that a true account of what cash was in your office last
week
JS No
DM Why isn't it
JS Because the money was short
DM How much by
JS £40,000
DM So it was £40,000 short last Wednesday and between
Wednesday and Tuesday of which you were only open
Thursday Friday and half day Saturday there is another
£20,000 gone. Did you keep a running total of how much
short your office was
36.38 JS (Quiet)
DM So that’s in CC stock
JS Yes
DM So you declared the cash in CC £40,253.85 short
JS Yes
DM And that was the amount of the shortage within your office
JS Yes
SB When was your remittance delivered
JS Thursday afternoon
DM If I got your trading statements, I have got trading
statements TP9 and TP2 so if I look here on C there is
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£3,664.01 declared, is that a shortage that has been
38.26 JS No that was there apart from the £1,400.
DM So the £1,400 is being overclaimed in the CC stock and
that is part of the £3,664
JS Yes
DM So if I go back and get your trading statements that figure
in CC is going to be what losses you were rolling
JS JS
SB And that has happened since November 04
JS Yes
DM Just to clarify what we have got here. Since November 04
up until the present time that you were subpostmisstress at
North Bransholme each and every week or every month
since you have been on branch trading your cash has been
inflated by an amount of money in order to not show the
losses within your office
JS Yes
39.50 DM And not to alert that there was a problem in your office is
that fair
JS Hide the problem yes
DM You knew it was wrong to do that. You knew it was wrong
to declare cash that you didn’t have in your office
JS Yes
SB This £40,000 it only leaves £25,000 . How much do you
normally get in in your rem
JS Oh not a great deal to be honest it is usually change
SB So on a Thursday what notes would you have got in
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JS It depends £3000 or £4000
SB That leaves you with £28,000, cos you have got £40,000
inflated of which another £19,000 which leaves you with
£9000 which if memory serves correctly they found £10,000
give or take a bit
40.46 JS Do you know whats bothering me more I can remember a
few months back, I cant remember which cash account it
was but I can remember remming back £30,000
DM Have you had requests to send money back
JS Yes
DM Have you just ignored them because you didn’t have any
JS No I have sent money back
DM Well because you have £60,000 that isn’t there you are so
far over target
41.32 JS Yeah I know
DM That they are asking you for money to be sent back
possibly large amounts substantial amounts of money
JS Yeah cos now it seems as if like less in
DM Did you realise you were getting quite close to the bone to
not having money
JS Yes
DM What would have done if you would have had none
JS Well when Julia and Diane came in on Tuesday and said
they wanted to do a check I told them, I basically told them
because it needs to be sorted out
DM That’s why obviously you are here today
JS Yeah it is. I do want it to be sorted out
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Master Tape Seal 043367 signed
Tape ended at 14.56
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