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6 Consignia
Summary Record of Tape Recorded Interview
LISA MARGARET BRENNAN
Exhibit No:
[Number of pages
Signature of interviewing
officer producing exhi
ibit
Person Interviewed
Interview room at Huyton Delivery Office
Place of Interview
13 June 2002
Date of Interview
Time commenced
Interviewing Officer(:
Other persons present
1010 Hours
42 Minutes
Duration of interview
Time concluded 1052 Hours
Tape reference no 047855
s) Stephen Bradshaw Anthony Frank Gardner
t Stephen Owens (CWU Representative)
Tape
counter
times
Person
speaking
Text
0.00 SB
cso1s
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Introductions made and caution issued. The caution was explained to Ms
Brennan. Legal rights explained and the presence of Legal representation was
Declined. Form CS001 signed, timed and dated. The offer of a friend was
accepted and Steve Owens (CWU Representative) attended. Form CS003 was
signed, timed and dated.
Ms Brennan explained that she has been employed by the post office for
approximately 13 years. She has worked at various post offices and been a
permanent member of staff at Huyton for 7 years. She went on to explain that she
performed the full range of counter duties. Ms Brennan attended work on a
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday and she worked a total of 30 hours
per week. She also attended on the occasional Saturday. Ms Brennan also worked
on Friday 31 May 2002, but could not remember the last time she went on annual
leave.
Consignia ple is registered in England and Wales. Registered number 4138203. Registered office: 148 Old Street London ECIV 9HQ.
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Summary Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person
Counter Speaking Text
Times
9.00 It was explained to Ms Brennan why we were at the office. She was asked to
explain how she would pay out a pension and allowance voucher. She
demonstrated that she had the knowledge to pay out correctly and she could
explain the procedure when rectifying any mistakes. She would not clarify if she
paid out the amount of money indicated on the horizon system or the amount on
the voucher.
12.00 AG I think what Steve is saying in the first instance is let’s say you’ve got a pension
at £50 and you mis-key the amount so it reads £250 on the screen, would you pay
out the £250?
LB I don’t know, maybe, maybe not, I don’t know, it depends if I notice it. It’s that
fast and that busy in here, it depends if you notice it.
AG So what you’re saying that it’s quite possible that if you’ve accepted a pension
docket or an allowance docket ...
LB If I haven’t noticed it yeh.
AG You would pay out 200 and odd pounds too much.
LB Yeh.
Ms Brennan was asked how many times did she think that might happen? She
replied that she didn’t have any idea. She was then asked what would she of a
clerk that was making mistakes of £100 or £200 per week.
LB They were crap. Well not too much crap, I don’t know. If you’re saying it’s me,
I don’t know. You’re not gonna say I’m crap, I thought I was doing my job all
right.
13.00 AG So if it was you it wouldn’t be because you’re crap?
LB I don’t know.
AG But if it was anyone else it would be because they’re crap?
LB No, it wouldn’t.
14.00 Ms Brennan was asked how often did she prepare her pensions and allowance
vouchers for checking. She replied everyday if it’s not busy. She went on to
explain that she put them in a draw. The check she performed was to count the
CSOISA
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Summary Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person
Counter Speaking Text
Times
number of vouchers, then check if they tallied with the number on the horizon
print off. Ms Brennan was then asked what the effect on her balance would be, if
she paid out the correct amount of money, but the wrong amount had been entered
on the horizon system. She understood that her balance would show a surplus.
She also said that her balancing record was OK. The office uses the MUTE stock
system, She explained that B stock was allocated to her and she would keep this
stock until the Branch Manager changed them.
16.00 SB How did you balance last week?
LB Dunno.
SB Yesterday.
LB Yesterday, oh. A couple of quid out.
SB How do you think your pensions were?
LB Before you just took them away.
SB To save messing around we'll go straight to the pensions. There’s the pensions
that you’ve done on the 6" June.
LB Right.
SB Which was last Thursday. It’s the group 5 we’re concerned with.
LB Yeh.
SB Would you like to count, tell me how many group 5 vouchers there are.
LB Tcan’t count it. 11.
17.00 SB As there’s only a few would you like to just check them against what you’ve
declared.
LB It’s not right. That one’s not right.
AG Which one are you referring to there?
LB 26.60
SB It’s £26.30 and what’ the amount that’s been declared?
LB £226.30.
SB And that belongs to B stock.
LB Yeh.
CSOISA
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Summary Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person
Counter Speaking Text
Times
SB Have you got any explanation for that?
LB No.
AG You say you've been in B stock but do you have a date stamp which is ...
LB Is B stock as well.
18.00 AG So B stock date stamp stays with the stock.
LB No.
AG You keep the ..
LB I’m just B date stamp.
AG So if you were in a different stock you'd still use B date stamp?
LB Yeh.
AG Do you understand what I’m saying?
LB Yeh.
AG You float around the counter don’t you so if you’re in B stock ..
LB Very rare I do ... not very rare I don’t, I don’t float around.
SB [I'll now show you, this is SB4, print out SB4, that shows the amount of £226.30
being paid out at 14:28. That’s the user code there, whose user code is that.
LB That’s me, that’s my code.
SB Would you like to just repeat that code for me.
LB LBROOI.
SB So would you be on duty at 14:28 on Thursday?
LB Yeh.
SB And do you have an explanation of why £226.30 has been paid out?
LB No.
SB And your stock was only £2 out.
19.00 LB £2 out. I’ve give it away.
SB You've give it away.
LB Thaven’t got it.
SB OK. Do you think this has happened on any other occasions?
LB Yes, ‘cos you’ve come for discrepancies.
CSOISA
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Summary Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person
Counter Speaking Text
Times
SB That’s a discrepancy.
LB Yeh.
SB Do you think it’s happened on any other occasions?
LB Not that I know of, no.
AG Just to clarify that then Lisa, what you’re saying is that someone with the child
benefit book which has the referen } with a docket payable on the
3" June has come in last Thursday. The value of the docket is £26.30, you’ve
keyed in the wrong amount by £200 and you’ve paid this woman £226.30 instead
of £26.30, is that what you’re saying?
LB I must have done, yeh.
AG You're saying you paid £226.30.
LB I must have done, I didn’t know, I haven’t got it
SB Can you just have a look through your pensions again, it’s the group 5s for the
23" May 2000 and would you like to just check your group Ss. Take your time.
LB No. 100.
21.00 AG Just explain what’s happened there then Lisa.
LB One’s wrong by 100 again.
AG Just tell us which one it is.
LB £15.75.
AG And that’s been fed it as what?
LB £115.75.
SB How do you know it’s the £15.75 that’s been fed in wrong?
LB Cos there’s 9 and there’s 10, I’ve just gone to the back and there isn’t one there.
an amount either.
SB Have you physically counted the £15.75s.
LB Yeh, I’ve just done it there.
22.00 SB OK. On that day here’s a copy of the print out, the Horizon log, the SB6. Can
you just explain there, the user code again ...
LB Same again, it’s mine, LBROOI.
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Tape
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25.00
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Summary Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Person
Speaking
SB
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AG
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Text
At what time in the ...
Quarter to 10.
OK. Is there any explanation of why ..
No.
That’s now 2 mistakes and you say ..?.
It was explained to Ms Brennan that in the case of child benefit, the amounts are
static because the payments reflect the number of children. But I the case of
retirement pensions or sickness benefit, the amount varies depending on the
person. It was then re-iterated that a child benefit payment of £15.75 had been in
putted as £115.75 and one for £26.30 had been inputted as £226.30
£26.30 fed in as £226.30 you’ve fed in 115 and 226. Now that’s obviously a
different payee because it’s a different amount. Steve’ll show you a couple more
examples I think.
Can you just sign the bottom of that to say that you’ve seen it. And that one as
well. Just a couple more. Sign the bottom.. the top of that. OK. The last
example we’ve just shown you, I’m now gonna show you part of the transaction
log that was run off at quarter past 6 on the 5" for that one for the 23“. And you
see the highlighted bits, that’ll be known as SB7. There’s the £115.75 that’d
been claimed at 9:42 but also what else has been paid out at the same time?
Invalidity benefit. What do you mean?
Well, that’s all part of the same transaction so you haven’t just paid the child
benefit out at that time, a group 14 pension has also been paid out.
Right.
You see what we’re getting at, it wasn’t just a one transaction when you’ve been
busy and you might have double pressed the key, you’ve actually keyed in 2
different ones haven’t you, 2 different groups, pensions and that’s the amount you
paid out ‘cos if you add them 2 together...
It comes to that.
It comes to that amount.
Consignia ple is registered in England and Wales. Registered number 4138203. Registered office: 148 Old Street London ECIV 9HQ.
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Summary Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person
Counter Speaking Text
Times
LB Right.
SB So we’ve now got a slight variation of what we’ve been speaking about of just
paying out I voucher, we’re now paying out 2 vouchers and still coming across
mistakes. Could there be any explanation?
LB No.
27.00 SB And that was the 31 of May. Again do you think there’s anything wrong with
the pensions that day?
LB Oh God, don’t tell me there are.
SB Well on that, if I show you SB8 and SB9 which is a print off of the transaction
log, shows a group 7 for £250.60 that isn’t there and the transaction log shows
the same, paid out.
LB And it’s not there?
SB But we’ve now suddenly .... £500, now we’re getting a bit away from just being
genuine mistakes now aren’t we.
LB I think it’s a mistake.
SB You're losing 2 or 300 pound a week.
LB I’m not doing the job very good.
30.00 SB And that’s on a day that you’re not normally in. We’re now, you know, £500 and
we’ve only gone back a few weeks. We’re only talking 2 or 3 weeks and I believe
you were on leave the other week. You were on leave the other week?
LB I don’t when I was on leave. I’ve had leave, I’m not ..
SB I’ve had it confirmed by your boss that you’ve been on leave and there were no
discrepancies that week.
LB I can’t believe it
SB So you admit that you’re making the discrepancies then?
LB Well I obviously have, haven’t I? It’s me who’s logged on.
31.00 SB But don’t you think a clerk with 13 years experience, it’s a bit ... No, there’s an
explanation. I’ll show you this ... it’s a print out .. you know the pensions go
through Lisahally to be checked and sealed up and off in the pouch, well week 42
CSOISA
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Consignia ple is registered in England and Wales. Registered number 4138203. Registered office: 148 Old Street London ECIV 9HQ.
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Summary Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person
Counter Speaking Text
Times
of the last cash account year 01/02, Lisahally have checked them and the group
13, one order value £35.05 has been claimed as £135.05. That was down to B
stock, B date stamp, you were using B date stamp. Again the following week,
group 13, £76.95 has been claimed as £176.95 and again B date stamp. You see
where we’re going.
LB Yeh. I haven’t got it.
32.00 SB Do you think somebody else is using your code?
LB No, no one can, no. I work fast, I’m not thinking but I work fast, try and get
through the queue as quick as I can. The pressure’s on and I try and work as fast
as I can.
35.00 SB I’m not saying that all your customers are honest ...
LB I'd say half and half would come back. Am I losing it any other time during the
day?
SB No. It’s all on the pensions. All down to B date stamp
LB Yeh.
AG We've got a choice of 2 things haven’t we Lisa, either you’re totally incompetent
and you’re costing the Post Office 3 or 4 hundred pounds a week and therefore
we can’t afford to keep you...
LB Don’t sack me.
AG Or you’re fiddling the pensions deliberately and you’re pocketing the money.
LB No, I haven’t got it, I haven’t got it, I haven’t.
AG Someone’s got it.
LB Thaven’t got it.
36.00 AG All these customers being paid out too much, not one of them says at the time. If
I was due for £25.60 or £26.30, whatever the amount is, and you gave me £125, I
would say why are you giving me all that and I’m damn sure that you know as a
reasonable counter clerk, you know that to pay out on the screen for a docket
that’s worth £25 means you’ve made a mistake.
LB Yeh.
CSOISA
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Consignia ple is registered in England and Wales. Registered number 4138203. Registered office: 148 Old Street London ECIV 9HQ.
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Summary Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person
Counter Speaking Text
Times
AG Well this has been going on since... what’s the date of this, January of this year
so it took you 6 months and if it’s £200 a week.
LB It’s a lot of money.
AG How much is that?
LB A lot of money.
SB It equates to about £5000.
LB I haven’t got it.
37.00 Ms Brennan explained her financial and personnel circumstances.
40.00 SB So you actually earn a little bit more than £180. OK. If we just go off this, not
that you’re saying that these are all mistakes, carelessness .. isn’t it a bit strange
that they’re just happening in the pensions and not in your other work?
LB Like in what?
SB Well your giros have not been proved to be wrong, your savings bank has not
been proved to be wrong. It’s only pensions that have proved to be wrong by
£100 or £200 at a time.
LB Dunno.
AG No one else is making mistakes like you.
LB They don’t work as fast as me. I’ve been working dead fast.
AG I used to work fast on the counter. You’re talking maybe over £1000 here in just
a few weeks.
LB I haven’t got nothing new, I haven’t got fridges and freezers and whatever else
have you, I’ve got nothing.
AG What other problems have you got then?
42.00 LB Nothing.
The tape was coming to an end. Ms Brennan signed master tape seal 047855 and
the tape was switched off at 1052 hours.
CSOISA
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Consignia ple is registered in England and Wales. Registered number 4138203. Registered office: 148 Old Street London ECIV 9HQ.
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6 Consignia
Summary Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person
Counter Speaking Text
Times
CSOISA
Version 2.0 03/01
Consignia ple is registered in England and Wales. Registered number 4138203. Registered office: 148 Old Street London ECIV 9HQ.