POL00066740
POL00066740
Transcribed by Take Note®
www.takenote.co
File name: Khayyam ISHAQ - POLTD-1011-0186 Khayyam Ishaq Tape 1 of 2 Tape
No.071404.mp3
Audio quality: Good
Moderator questions in Bold, Respondents in Regular text.
KEY: Unable to decipher = (inaudible + timecode), Phonetic spelling = (ph +
timecode), Missed word = (mw + timecode), Talking over each other = (talking over each
other + timecode).
(TC: 00:00:00)
Stephen Bradshaw: This interview is being tape recorded. My name is Stephen Bradshaw, I'm the
officer of Post Office Limited security team, employed to investigate possible criminal offences. My
colleague is-
(TC: 00:00:15)
Kevin Ryan: Kevin Ryan
(TC: 00:00:15)
Stephen Bradshaw: And will you please state your full name and date of birth?
(TC: 00:00:18) ne
Khayyam Ishaq: Khayyam Ishaq:
(TC: 00:00:22)
Stephen Bradshaw: Also present is-,
(TC: 00:00:24)
Mr Patel: Mr Patel, solicitor from Dewsbury (ph 00.25).
(TC: 00:00:28)
Stephen Bradshaw: The date is the 27th of September 2011. The time is 11:10. And this interview
is being conducted in the training room at Bradford south-, Bradford south delivery office. We
must ask you some questions about the audit shortage at, at Birkenshaw Post Office. And at the end
of the interview I will hand you a note to explain and what will happen to the tapes. Do you have
any objections to the interview being tape recorded?
1727
POL00066740
POL00066740
Transcribed by Take Note®
www.takenote.co
(TC: 00:00:53)
Khayyam Ishaq: (inaudible 00.58) No.
(TC: 00:00:57)
Stephen Bradshaw: Okay, first of all we just have to fill in a couple of forms. That form there, this
document explains your legal rights, it's important that you read and understand it. So, can you
just fill in the date for me please Mr Ishaq. Yeah. And the time is 11:11, And because you're
suspected of having committed a criminal offence which may result in a criminal prosecution, I
must inform you that you do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence if you do not
mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be
given in evidence. Do you understand-
(TC: 00:01:30)
Mr Patel: Can I-, can I just interject? I know you mentioned criminal offence, (mw 01.33) maybe a bit
more specific as to the alleged criminal offence?
(TC: 00:01:39)
Stephen Bradshaw: Again, the-, that decision of (inaudible 01.44) fraud.
(TC: 00:01:45)
Mr Patel: What, what kind of fraud?
(TC: 00:01:47)
Stephen Bradshaw: Fraud because of-, it could be a abusive of position, because err from the first
interview it was um, an audit shortage was shown where there was a discrepancy in the stock held
and balances are being produced, so false accounting may come into, into play. But also as, as
previously explained, we're here to find out the facts. And it's reported to our legal services and
they will decide on any, any, err, criminal charges. Okay, do you understand the caution? And can
you just indicate there that you understand the, the caution? Okay, I must also inform you that
you're not under arrest, you're free to leave if you wish. If you do remain you have the right to legal
representation advice, including the right to speak with a solicitor in private, either in person or on
the telephone or in writing. You got Mr Patel here with you. Um and also you're entitled to read the
Police Criminal Evidence Act 1984 codes of practice if you wish. And the code sets our your legal
rights and rules covered in the conduct of this interview, and that’s that book over there. There's
just a bit more for you to fill in there. Have you read one to four above? Just indicate your reply
there. And the next one is do you understand one to four above? Okay. And the next one is split,
split up.
Err, you've got Mr Patel with you so you um, would be-, I wish to speak with a solicitor as soon as
practical. Okay. And can you just sign and print your name and sign and date it for me there at the
bottom? Forget that part one, doesn't qualify because you brought Mr Patel with you. Okay, can
2727
POL00066740
POL00066740
Transcribed by Take Note®
www.takenote.co
you just print your name for me please? Okay, thank you. Mr Ishaq has been given his legal rights.
Now it's the next form, another form, this is a Royal Mail employee's right to a friend as an
interview or search. In this one, Royal Mail Group have agreed with the unions that Royal Mail
Group of Post Office Limited branch staff when interviewed by an investigator may have a friend
present at the interview search. Any friend invited to attend Royal Mail Group interview or search
must be at least eighteen years of age and not already involved in inquiry. He or she must be a
Royal Mail Group employee or Post Office Limited branch staff, it may be the local union rep
representative, or other official of a recognised union for the grade. The right to a friend is
additional to, to your right to seek legal advice. And also, if there is a search of your home address
it's probably err, well, sorry, this, this won't take part today, so it's basically number one and two.
So, the fist one, have you read-, have you read and understood, understood one, one and two above?
Right, and do you require a friend?
(TC: 00:05:05)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah.
(TC: 00:05:05)
Stephen Bradshaw: No. No, Mr Patel is your legal representative. Do you friend, a friend in
addition? So, the answer would be no. And if you can just sign, print your name again for me and
sign and date it, and the time is 11:15. Okay, that’s the formalities over (inaudible 05.36). Okay,
Mr Ishaq, you were previously interviewed on the 7th of April, and as explained at that time the,
the file was put together and sent off to our legal services, um, for their advice. The advice has come
back and (inaudible 05.50) and spoke with your, um, your clerk, Mr Lequat, on the 24th of June
and a statement was taken. Um, the, the purpose of this interview is just to clarify some points of
what you said in the first interview, to what Mr Lequat has said, um, business duties etc. (inaudible
06.11). Okay. Um in the first interview you, you stated that you both completed the branch trading
statements and the cash declarations. Is, is that still correct?
(TC: 00:06:20)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah.
(TC: 00:06:21)
Stephen Bradshaw: Right, so you're-, what you're saying is that Mr Lequat also took part in doing
a cash declarations of a night? And (inaudible 06.32) even though Mr Lequat said that he did not
do any cash declarations, you're saying that, that is untrue.
(TC: 00:06:39)
Khayyam Ishaq: He counted the cash.
(TC: 00:06:39)
3727
POL00066740
POL00066740
Transcribed by Take Note®
www.takenote.co
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah.
(TC: 00:06:39)
Khayyam Ishaq: And then obviously we used to write it on a piece of paper.
(TC: 00:06:42)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah.
(TC: 00:06:42)
Khayyam Ishaq: How much cash there was.
(TC: 00:06:43)
Stephen Bradshaw: Right. So, he, he counted the cash?
(TC: 00:06:45)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah.
(TC: 00:06:46)
Stephen Bradshaw: Who actually inputted the cash declaration onto the Horizon screen?
(TC: 00:06:53)
Khayyam Ishaq: Sometimes he did, sometimes I did.
(TC: 00:06:54)
Stephen Bradshaw: Right. So, so, what you're saying is, he, he's saying, because he says so, is that,
his sole responsibility was, other than serving customers, but I accept that he probably has assisted
at some time with the balance?
(TC: 00:07:06)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah.
(TC: 00:07:06)
Stephen Bradshaw: Okay. You said-, you also said that um-, you gave us his hours of attendance.
What, what, what time does the shop open?
4727
POL00066740
POL00066740
Transcribed by Take Note®
www.takenote.co
(TC: 00:07:18)
Khayyam Ishaq: Err, half six.
(TC: 00:07:18)
Stephen Bradshaw: Half six. And the Post Office opened at nine o'clock, (inaudible 07.22) half past
five.
(TC: 00:07:21)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah.
(TC: 00:07:23)
Stephen Bradshaw: And I don’t think the Post Office closed for lunch did it?
(TC: 00:07:27)
Khayyam Ishaq: It doesn't, no.
(TC: 00:07:27)
Stephen Bradshaw: And then the shop's open all the way through?
(TC: 00:07:29)
Khayyam Ishaq: To half five, yeah.
(TC: 00:07:29)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah. And then you close the shop when the Post Office is closed?
(TC: 00:07:33)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah.
(TC: 00:07:34)
Stephen Bradshaw: Okay. Let me see it's correct. I think you said you normally open the shop,
yeah?
(TC: 00:07:40)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah.
5/27
Transcribed by Take Note®
www.takenote.co
POL00066740
POL00066740
(TC: 00:07:40)
Stephen Bradshaw: At about half six.
(TC: 00:07:40)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah.
(TC: 00:07:40)
Stephen Bradshaw: Did you open the shop by yourself?
(TC: 00:07:43)
Khayyam Ishaq: No, sometimes he was-, he's with me.
(TC: 00:07:46)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah.
(TC: 00:07:47)
Khayyam Ishaq: Um, because he doesn't have a lift to come in.
(TC: 00:07:49)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah.
(TC: 00:07:49)
Khayyam Ishaq: So, he used to come in and sit on the shop side.
(TC: 00:07:52)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah. Is that every day, or, or just occasionally?
(TC: 00:07:56)
Khayyam Ishaq: I think since he started, err, he didn't used to come in later on.
(TC: 00:08:01)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah.
(TC: 00:08:03)
Khayyam Ishaq: Um, and then I think circumstances-, his circumstances changed and he started coming
6/27
POL00066740
POL00066740
Transcribed by Take Note®
www.takenote.co
in. I don’t know exactly why.
(TC: 00:08:08)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah. And ‘cause you said in the first interview that his hours of attendance
were ten o'clock at the Post Office 'til four o'clock. And you used to do nine 'til ten. And then for
the shop for four o'clock to half past five 'til it closed. Is that still the case?
(TC: 00:08:23)
Khayyam Ishaq: His hours-, the hours-, core hours were between ten and four.
(TC: 00:08:28)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah.
(TC: 00:08:28)
Khayyam Ishaq: But they were flexible. We did slide-, he did slide them himself.
(TC: 00:08:32)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah. Again, what he said to us is that he worked Monday to Friday, nine 'til
half five every day.
(TC: 00:08:40)
Khayyam Ishaq: That was up to him. If he wants-, his core hours was set.
(TC: 00:08:43)
Stephen Bradshaw: Right.
(TC: 00:08:44)
Khayyam Ishaq: He-, obviously, if you can imagine, it's a business, we set them core hours that they're
gonna have to work. Err, beyond that if he wants to work, that was offered to him at the time.
(TC: 00:08:53)
Stephen Bradshaw: Right. Have you got any records to show whether he come in before ten o'clock
and worked after four o'clock?
(TC: 00:09:02)
Khayyam Ishaq: We didn't have a, a time sheet. (inaudible 09.05) Can I have a?
7127
POL00066740
POL00066740
Transcribed by Take Note®
www.takenote.co
(TC: 00:09:06)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah.
(TC: 00:09:06)
Khayyam Ishaq: Thank you.
(TC: 00:09:09)
Mr Patel: He didn't-, he didn't have a form of clocking in?
(TC: 00:09:09)
Khayyam Ishaq: No.
(TC: 00:09:09)
Mr Patel: No.
(TC: 00:09:09)
Khayyam Ishaq: No.
(TC: 00:09:10)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah. So, so you, you couldn’t find a record where he would sign in to sort of-
(TC: 00:09:14)
Khayyam Ishaq: No.
(TC: 00:09:14)
Stephen Bradshaw: No. How was he paid for this-, these extra hours? Did you pay him, or?
(TC: 00:09:18)
Khayyam Ishaq: Err, in his wage.
(TC: 00:09:19)
Stephen Bradshaw: In his wage?
8/27
POL00066740
POL00066740
Transcribed by Take Note®
www.takenote.co
(TC: 00:09:19)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah.
(TC: 00:09:20)
Stephen Bradshaw: So, there could be a record somewhere because on his wage slips would show-,
if his core hours is ten 'til four, which is six hours, it would show on his wage slip the extra hours he
will have done. Like, if he worked nine 'til half past five, if he worked one weekend he just worked
ten 'til four, he'd be working five days a week, six days-, six hours a day, 30 hours. But if he worked
nine 'til half five, which is what? Eight and half hours? Yeah, eight and half hours, which would be
42 and half hours a week. Would that reflect in any wage slips?
(TC: 00:09:56)
Khayyam Ishaq: Um, I don't think so because it was time in lieu and stuff like that was given to him. (TC
00:10:00)
(TC: 00:10:00)
Stephen Bradshaw: Right, so-
(TC: 00:10:00)
Khayyam Ishaq: And, you know, added onto his holidays and stuff like that.
(TC: 00:10:03)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah. So, it was time in lieu, so it would not (mw 10.04). So, there'd be no
paper record to show that-
(TC: 00:10:07)
Khayyam Ishaq: There's no, there's no money involved in that.
(TC: 00:10:09)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah. Is there any paper record for the time in lieu to give back (talking over
each other 10.11)?
(TC: 00:10:10)
Khayyam Ishaq: No, no. Because every year obviously he, he did-, I don’t know if he wrote it down or
not, I asked him to write it down.
(TC: 00:10:18)
9727
POL00066740
POL00066740
Transcribed by Take Note®
www.takenote.co
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah.
(TC: 00:10:18)
Khayyam Ishaq: And then remind me. But he used to take, um, half a day off, you know, during the
week. Err, 'I'm going at this time.’ And then we just let him go because obviously we knew he'd worked
those hours.
(TC: 00:10:28)
Stephen Bradshaw: Right. So, Mr Lequat kept a record of what hours (talking over each other
10.31).
(TC: 00:10:31)
Khayyam Ishaq: (talking over each other 10.32), I don’t know.
(TC: 00:10:32)
Stephen Bradshaw: And you took his word, that if he come to you and said, 'I'm owed four hours'-
(TC: 00:10:36)
Khayyam Ishaq: If, if he came to me and said he, he was owed five hours, then that would be err given to
him.
(TC: 00:10:43)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah, okay. You'd also said in your first interview that you never shared any
passwords. Okay. Like he-
(TC: 00:10:49)
Khayyam Ishaq: That’s true.
(TC: 00:10:49)
Stephen Bradshaw: He didn't know yours and you didn't know his, right? Is that still the case? Did
you not know his password?
(TC: 00:10:54)
Khayyam Ishaq: (talking over each other 10.54). No.
(TC: 00:10:55)
10/27
POL00066740
POL00066740
Transcribed by Take Note®
www.takenote.co
Stephen Bradshaw: ‘cause Mr Lequat says to us that initially, which is the, the normal way of
setting up the, the system.
(TC: 00:11:01)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah.
(TC: 00:11:01)
Stephen Bradshaw: You would give um, you would put Mr Lequat on the system wouldn't it?
Then he'd be prompted to change his password?
(TC: 00:11:08)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah. After that I don’t know.
(TC: 00:11:12)
Stephen Bradshaw: Right. Well, what he's saying to us is that, um, he changed his password when
he was prompted, and then he told you on every occasion what his new password was ‘cause that,
that was what he was-, he thought he had to do. Is that the case?
(TC: 00:11:28)
Khayyam Ishaq: No.
(TC: 00:11:28)
Stephen Bradshaw: Right. So, what you're saying is, you would have-, he's never come to you with
a password?
(TC: 00:11:28)
Khayyam Ishaq: No.
(TC: 00:11:28)
Stephen Bradshaw: All right.
(TC: 00:11:28)
Khayyam Ishaq: Still-, I mean to this day we don’t know. But I originally set them up. And then that's it,
it's their job to remember it.
(TC: 00:11:37)
11727
POL00066740
POL00066740
Transcribed by Take Note®
www.takenote.co
Stephen Bradshaw: Okay. Previous, again, on part of the, the first interview you said, like when
you used to do a balance, you, you'd only really balanced on a-, on a monthly basis, right? Did you
do anything on a weekly basis? Did your balance roll it over into the next period? ‘cause it's broken
up into balance period one, two, three and four.
(TC: 00:11:58)
Khayyam Ishaq: Mmm.
(TC: 00:11:58)
Stephen Bradshaw: Did you roll from balance period one to two? Into three into four and then
produce your branch trading statements at the end?
(TC: 00:12:05)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah. We did.
(TC: 00:12:06)
Stephen Bradshaw: Right, so you done it on a weekly basis rather than on, on the monthly basis?
(TC: 00:12:11)
Khayyam Ishaq: I think every, every week we did it.
(TC: 00:12:15)
Kevin Ryan: Did you do it every Wednesday as opposed to once a month? So, every Wednesday did you
do a balance and roll it over?
(TC: 00:12:24)
Khayyam Ishaq: I think we did a, a balance for the cash and for what we assumed was there.
(TC: 00:12:30)
Stephen Bradshaw: Mmm.
(TC: 00:12:30)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah. I think we-,
(TC: 00:12:31)
Kevin Ryan: And you done that on a-,
12727
POL00066740
POL00066740
Transcribed by Take Note®
www.takenote.co
(TC: 00:12:32)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah, I did.
(TC: 00:12:33)
Stephen Bradshaw: (talking over each other 12.33) Mr Lequat said that it was on a weekly basis. I
know we-, and it might just been a bit of confusion because a, a branch trading statement is only
produced once a month,
(TC: 00:12:42)
Khayyam Ishaq: Once a month, yeah.
(TC: 00:12:42)
Stephen Bradshaw: And that whether, you know, that’s where you're saying-
(TC: 00:12:43)
Khayyam Ishaq: I think we did.
(TC: 00:12:46)
Stephen Bradshaw: Monthly. But on a weekly basis you wouldn't know what, what the state of
affairs was within the Post Office. So, when you balance the-, count the cash on a Wednesday.
(TC: 00:12:54)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah.
(TC: 00:12:54)
Stephen Bradshaw: If you're out it would tell you you're out? And so on each week 'til you
produced the, the statement.
(TC: 00:13:00)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah.
(TC: 00:13:00)
Stephen Bradshaw: So, you produced it on the weekly balance. Err, again, Mr Lequat sort of said
he helped on a couple of occasions which is basically what you're sort of saying. Was he there 'til
the end? Had you completed the full balance, whether it be weekly or monthly, with Mr Lequat at
13727
POL00066740
POL00066740
Transcribed by Take Note®
www.takenote.co
the end when, when the final figure was reached?
(TC: 00:13:20)
Khayyam Ishaq: Sometimes he would be there, sometimes he'd leave a bit earlier. You know, we'd start
the balance, he'd do the cash count, and then sometimes he' d walk-, he's say like, 'I'm going.’ And I-, and I
say to him, 'Okay, you go, I'll finish off.' And sometimes he used to stay ' til right ' til the end.
(TC: 00:13:36)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah. So, it's a-, it's a bit of a mixture from him. Yeah.
(TC: 00:13:36)
Khayyam Ishaq: It, it was up to him.
(TC: 00:13:38)
Stephen Bradshaw: (talking over each other 13.38).
(TC: 00:13:38)
Khayyam Ishaq: I mean, because I was showing him how to do the balances as well.
(TC: 00:13:41)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah.
(TC: 00:13:42)
Khayyam Ishaq: It was in his interest to stay back and learn how to do the balance.
(TC: 00:13:45)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah. Okay. It’s only that, ‘cause what our understand from him is that he
was never present when a final, final figure was reached. It's a, a slight contradiction of being at the
end.
(TC: 00:13:56)
Khayyam Ishaq: Unless he wasn't looking at the screen, he was there.
(TC: 00:13:58)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah. So,-, but what you're saying, there has been occasions when you, you've
reached your final figure for the balance that the clerk was there in the-, in the-, in the office.
14727
POL00066740
POL00066740
Transcribed by Take Note®
www.takenote.co
(TC: 00:14:05)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah.
(TC: 00:14:07)
Stephen Bradshaw: Okay. Right, and the first interview when you, you were speaking about the
few balances of the large amounts, you said that when you-, when you reached the first one, which I
think is the S-, the SB8, the one for £4211.21 which was shown as being short. The explanation you
give was that when-, you'd already completed the balance and it come up, and then you found some
cash in the drawer.
(TC: 00:14:36)
Khayyam Ishaq: On the side.
(TC: 00:14:36)
Stephen Bradshaw: On the side, yeah. Not, not in the drawer, it was on the side?
(TC: 00:14:39)
Khayyam Ishaq: I think it was on the side.
(TC: 00:14:39)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah. Okay. Again, I, I, I-, my understanding was that-, the interview said in
the drawer. But either on the drawer or on the side. And you said that that was the cash that you'd
never counted.
(TC: 00:14:51)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah. Because we'd started the balance process.
(TC: 00:14:53)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah.
(TC: 00:14:55)
Khayyam Ishaq: And he'd forgot to include that cash. And then he goes, 'I forgot to do it.'
(TC: 00:14:58)
Stephen Bradshaw: Right. And then you completed the balance process and you-, this £4211 out.
18/27
POL00066740
POL00066740
Transcribed by Take Note®
www.takenote.co
And you-, and you hadn't counted the cash. But what you'd done is put the cash in, right? So, the
4200 short on the account, put the cash in, and then that, that would straighten the balance-, the,
the accounts right for the-, for the next trading period, wouldn’t it? Because you'd put the money
in? Okay. Now, is that still the case?
(TC: 00:15:30)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah.
(TC: 00:15:30)
Stephen Bradshaw: Because he told that he, he was never told of any discrepancy, and he did-, and
he wasn't told that he'd forgotten to count any cash.
(TC: 00:15:40)
Khayyam Ishaq: I think, um, he forgets most things that you tell him.
(TC: 00:15:42)
Stephen Bradshaw: Right, so-
(TC: 00:15:43)
Khayyam Ishaq: If you tell him what day, you know, today is, he'd probably forget that.
(TC: 00:15:47)
Stephen Bradshaw: Right. So, so that's not the case for, for that one SB shortage then, you're,
you're saying that he, he come to you?
(TC: 00:15:51)
Khayyam Ishaq: Well we were both in the office.
(TC: 00:15:55)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah.
(TC: 00:15:55)
Khayyam Ishaq: It's not a big office, you've seen the office size.
(TC: 00:15:58)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah.
16/27
POL00066740
POL00066740
Transcribed by Take Note®
www.takenote.co
(TC: 00:15:58)
Khayyam Ishaq: And he was stood there, and he goes, ' Oh, err, I forgot this one.' And I went, ' You've
already started it so there's nothing more I can do. You just put it back into the safe.’ And just that’s what
he did.
(TC: 00:16:08)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah. So-
(TC: 00:16:10)
Khayyam Ishaq: I think err if, if he forgot to mention that, he might' ve forgot.
(TC: 00:16:13)
Stephen Bradshaw: Okay. So, you're saying that that's-, the cash was there, he, he knows about it.
(TC: 00:16:18)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah.
(TC: 00:16:18)
Stephen Bradshaw: And so-
(TC: 00:16:21)
Khayyam Ishaq: Unless he's forgot.
(TC: 00:16:21)
Stephen Bradshaw: Okay. And then the following month for trading period eight, which is S, SP9
was another shortage of £3,658.13. Now, we know that on a normal way of working that this
wouldn't be exactly down to (inaudible 16.34), based on what you said previously. Now, on that one
you said exactly the same thing, that he'd forgot to count the cash again.
(TC: 00:16:42)
Khayyam Ishaq: I was teaching him how to do the balance.
(TC: 00:16:42)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah.
17727
POL00066740
POL00066740
Transcribed by Take Note®
www.takenote.co
(TC: 00:16:43)
Khayyam Ishaq: And how to count, count the cash and put the cash into the system. Now, he kept-, for
those two balances, he did forget to do that, you know, he left the cash there. Once, you know, once he's
left it on the side, the other one he's left it in the drawer.
(TC: 00:16:59)
Stephen Bradshaw: So, what you're saying is that Mr Lequat has, um, mistaken that he didn't
know the cash was there on both these occasions?
(TC: 00:17:07)
Khayyam Ishaq: I think so.
(TC: 00:17:07)
Stephen Bradshaw: And that’s why these are the two occasions when you'd never contacted
Chesterfield, because when you said you'd always got in touch with Chesterfield when you had a
loss.
(TC: 00:17:16)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah.
(TC: 00:17:16)
Stephen Bradshaw: And we-, I think in the first interview we recovered some of the losses that we
show, that was, um, was settled essentially. But we couldn't get these two (inaudible 17.27). So,
you're saying that the reason you didn't contact Chesterfield for these ones is because the cash was
on the side?
(TC: 00:17:32)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah, the cash was there.
(TC: 00:17:33)
Stephen Bradshaw: And it's still the case that in TP, TP8, the 3658, all the money was found and
put in?
(TC: 00:17:41)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah.
(TC: 00:17:41)
18/27
POL00066740
POL00066740
Transcribed by Take Note®
www.takenote.co
Stephen Bradshaw: And the same with TP742, and it's not a rule of a loss from one month to
another?
(TC: 00:17:46)
Khayyam Ishaq: (inaudible 17.46).
(TC: 00:17:46)
Stephen Bradshaw: Okay. Just finally now, um, you said to us that you never physically counted
the cash or stock when you received a remittance. Right, you used to populate the figures in that
when you received the remittance, if you had, we'll keep it quite simple terms, if you had £1000 in
the safe and received five, you'd cross out one and make that six.
(TC: 00:18:12)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah.
(TC: 00:18:12)
Stephen Bradshaw: And then if you give 1000 out, you cross out six and make five, and so on.
Right. Is that still the case? Did you-, still the case that you'd physically counted-
(TC: 00:18:20)
Mr Patel: Can you just (inaudible 18.20) me the question, I think you're making a lot of statements. Are
you asking him, has he-, has he ever physically counted?
(TC: 00:18:27)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah. Yeah, in, in, in the first-, in the first interview you, you told us that, that
you didn't physically count the cash when it come in from the Post Office ‘cause you took as being
right. What you done is populated the figures. I was giving you an example that if you had £1,000 in
the safe and received £5000 cash, you put the £5000 in the safe and made the, the £1,000 from your
populated figures on the-, on the sheet into six.
(TC: 00:18:50)
Mr Patel: Mmm.
(TC: 00:18:50)
Stephen Bradshaw: And then when you took cash out to put onto the, the counter drawer to save,
you would then decrease that populated figure by the amount you've given out. Is that still the
case?
19/27
POL00066740
POL00066740
Transcribed by Take Note®
www.takenote.co
(TC: 00:19:02)
Khayyam Ishaq: (inaudible 19.03).
(TC: 00:19:01)
Mr Patel: (inaudible 19.05). Right, I think-
(TC: 00:19:09)
Khayyam Ishaq: (inaudible 19.10). Sorry.
(TC: 00:19:12)
Mr Patel: Yeah. I think what he's saying, he, he did count the cash that was received.
(TC: 00:19:18)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah.
(TC: 00:19:18)
Mr Patel: But it's the stock he was on about.
(TC: 00:19:19)
Stephen Bradshaw: Okay. Right so-,
(TC: 00:19:21)
Mr Patel: (inaudible 19.22).
(TC: 00:19:22)
Stephen Bradshaw: Right. So, when the cash come in you counted the, the cash, so you would
count the bundles and then count the individual notes?
(TC: 00:19:28)
Khayyam Ishaq: Not always.
(TC: 00:19:31)
Stephen Bradshaw: Not always?
(TC: 00:19:31)
20/27
Transcribed by Take Note®
www.takenote.co
POL00066740
POL00066740
Khayyam Ishaq: Not always. We did count it on occasions.
(TC: 00:19:33)
Stephen Bradshaw: Mmm.
(TC: 00:19:33)
Khayyam Ishaq: We would count it and then put it away.
(TC: 00:19:34)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah. More often or less often than not? You know, you know.
(TC: 00:19:39)
Khayyam Ishaq: I think because we were counting it weekly we counted the cash anyway.
(TC: 00:19:41)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah.
(TC: 00:19:41)
Khayyam Ishaq: So, the cash-, the cash was counted.
(TC: 00:19:43)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah. So, all the cash was actually physically counted?
(TC: 00:19:45)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah.
(TC: 00:19:46)
Stephen Bradshaw: Sort of thing.
(TC: 00:19:46)
Khayyam Ishaq: When it was in bundles it wasn't counted.
(TC: 00:19:48)
Stephen Bradshaw: And what-,
21/27
POL00066740
POL00066740
Transcribed by Take Note®
www.takenote.co
(TC: 00:19:49)
Khayyam Ishaq: Lose, lose obviously it's counted.
(TC: 00:19:49)
Stephen Bradshaw: And what you're saying is you never counted this stock?
(TC: 00:19:52)
Khayyam Ishaq: No.
(TC: 00:19:52)
Stephen Bradshaw: Right. So, again, Mr Lequat was, you know, was on the understanding that
you physically counted the cash in stock. But what you're saying he's mistaken again, that you
only-, you only physically counted the cash-
(TC: 00:20:01)
Khayyam Ishaq: (TC 00:20:00) I think when the-, when the cash came in and the remittance came in he
was never there.
(TC: 00:20:05)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah.
(TC: 00:20:06)
Khayyam Ishaq: Um, maybe he was there on occasions.
(TC: 00:20:08)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah.
(TC: 00:20:09)
Khayyam Ishaq: But he never saw what was happening.
(TC: 00:20:11)
Stephen Bradshaw: Right, so he didn't-
(TC: 00:20:11)
Khayyam Ishaq: So he can't clarify that.
22127
POL00066740
POL00066740
Transcribed by Take Note®
www.takenote.co
(TC: 00:20:12)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah, okay. No, that’s fine. And then finally, cash out to the safe. When you
were bringing-, of a morning, who, who got the cash in stock out?
(TC: 00:20:25)
Khayyam Ishaq: Um, because he's-, his role's progressed as well as we’ve gone on, um, we did-, I
originally set him up on the-, we didn't used to take out the bulks, you know, cash.
(TC: 00:20:38)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah.
(TC: 00:20:39)
Khayyam Ishaq: We used to store whatever was in the hoppers and in the small little tub that we had to
run the counter.
(TC: 00:20:44)
Stephen Bradshaw: Hmm.
(TC: 00:20:44)
Khayyam Ishaq: That’s what would be put out on a morning.
(TC: 00:20:46)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah. So, so when-, so initially you would take that out and put it in?
(TC: 00:20:51)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah.
(TC: 00:20:51)
Stephen Bradshaw: And what you say, when you progressed his training and being ready.
(TC: 00:20:54)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah. He used to do it.
(TC: 00:20:55)
Stephen Bradshaw: He, he used to get it out?
23/27
POL00066740
POL00066740
Transcribed by Take Note®
www.takenote.co
(TC: 00:20:57)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah.
(TC: 00:20:57)
Stephen Bradshaw: Okay. So, again, you, you put-, you take your money out the safe and put it in
the tub that you use on the counter. When that money was getting low or running out.
(TC: 00:21:07)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah.
(TC: 00:21:07)
Stephen Bradshaw: Or run out, who would replenish the money on the counter?
(TC: 00:21:10)
Khayyam Ishaq: Either he would or I would.
(TC: 00:21:11)
Stephen Bradshaw: Right. So, is it the same thing? Initially you would take the money out of the
safe, put it in the tub.
(TC: 00:21:17)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah
(TC: 00:21:17)
Stephen Bradshaw: And then as he progressed he would then be left to be able to get it sorted it
and out.
(TC: 00:21:21)
Khayyam Ishaq: Yeah.
(TC: 00:21:23)
Stephen Bradshaw: Okay. I’ve got no further questions.
(TC: 00:21:24)
Kevin Ryan: No, no, that’s fine.
24127
POL00066740
POL00066740
Transcribed by Take Note®
www.takenote.co
(TC: 00:21:26)
Stephen Bradshaw: That’s it. Anything else you want to add or say?
(TC: 00:21:31)
Mr Patel: (inaudible 21.33) yes, no further questions whatsoever.
(TC: 00:21:36)
Stephen Bradshaw: Okay. Where's paper (inaudible 21.41). That's, that's the note just explaining
what happens to the tapes. Um, if you can just repeat that number for me please?
(TC: 00:21:56)
Khayyam Ishaq: 071404.
(TC: 00:21:59)
Stephen Bradshaw: Okay. And then can you sign your-, sign above your, your name for me?
(TC: 00:22:07)
Khayyam Ishaq: Then here?
(TC: 00:22:07)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah. Did you want to (inaudible 22.15)?
(TC: 00:22:15)
Mr Patel: Yeah, (inaudible 22.16).
(TC: 00:22:16)
Stephen Bradshaw: Thanks Mr Patel. Okay, just before we switch off the tapes, is there anything
you wish to add, clarify or say anything?
(TC: 00:22:35)
Mr Patel: (inaudible 22.35).
(TC: 00:22:35)
Stephen Bradshaw: Can I just ask you one question, something about the, the repayments of the
outstanding? Is you were speaking to a potentially new buyer, have you spoke to them since we last
spoke?
25/27
POL00066740
POL00066740
Transcribed by Take Note®
www.takenote.co
(TC: 00:22:45)
Khayyam Ishaq: Discussions are ongoing with the-, with the new buyer, yeah.
(TC: 00:22:50)
Stephen Bradshaw: Okay. And again, um, we asked I think at the first time was-, because (mw
22.53) had different solicitor is dealing with the conveyancing about this um-
(TC: 00:22:57)
Khayyam Ishaq: Well, we had a problem because he wanted to use the same solicitor 'cause he comes
from the same area.
(TC: 00:23:00)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah.
(TC: 00:23:00)
Khayyam Ishaq: So, we had to change solicitors.
(TC: 00:23:02)
Stephen Bradshaw: Yeah. Have you-
(TC: 00:23:03)
Khayyam Ishaq: Err, (inaudible 23.05). I think it'll either be Mr Musah or it might be the, err, other
solicitor.
(TC: 00:23:10)
Stephen Bradshaw: Right.
(TC: 00:23:09)
Khayyam Ishaq: That, that sends a letter out.
(TC: 00:23:13)
Stephen Bradshaw: Right. Okay. ‘cause it's that letter of undertaking what we-, what we were
talking about to-, just to show that the money's outstanding, ‘cause which you're obliged to-
26/27
POL00066740
POL00066740
Transcribed by Take Note®
www.takenote.co
(TC: 00:23:18)
Khayyam Ishaq: That, that's in process.
(TC: 00:23:21)
Stephen Bradshaw: Under the terms of your contract. Okay. There's nothing else? The time is now
11:33. Switching off the tapes. (Silence 23.27-33.58).
27/27