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Interview Notes
Sue Muddeman SM
Interview Type I Conduct Interviewer
Inte - Alison Hall AH
by
Note Taker
Introduction / Purpose:
To give reasons why SM should not be considering the termination of
her contract for services following a letter dated 24" September to AH in
which it was put that SM was considering terminating the contract for
services on the grounds of a loss revealed at the audit of £14,023.37p
added to which was a transaction correction making it £14,842.37p,
failure to make good losses at the branch and increasing the amounts of
cash on hand. This being in breach of Contract for Services Section 12
Paragraph 4 and Section Paragraph 12.
1 AH _ I actually think a lot of the money has gone onto the, we’ve been
having problems with the scratch cards. I seem to have been
getting a lot of transaction corrections which is on here, this is all
the transactions for the last year. We've gone through 18
months of scratch card remming in slips and scratch card
activation slips to try and find this, I know it’s not gone over 18
months but we’ve just gone back 18 months to try and get
everything correct. Every time I seem to get one of these
transaction corrections for the scratch cards I had to change my
figures on the stock. I'll give you an example this was after I
came back off holiday in August I had another one waiting for
me. The £5 scratch cards the system said I had 59 and I had 56
‘cos this is when I physical count them myself what I have got
remmed in and activated in the container.
2 SM __ Was this when you were doing a branch trading when you were
counting them?
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3 AH _ Yeah the system said on the £2 ones that I had 133 but actually I
only had 52 on hand and the £1 ones the system said I had 753
when actually I had 387 what was activated in the 10 block thing
what we've got so that made it a minus £528 difference from the
beginning so that was just one of them but every time I’ve had to
do these transactions I’ve had to lose money every time. I know
I shouldn't have let it go on that long but I have been told also
now that I have been doing it wrong which I didn’t know and over
the last 6 to 8 weeks obviously now I know I’ve been doing it
properly where before I was getting some packs out of the safe
putting them in my drawer and they was actually remmed into
the system and then I'd take the pack and activate it and then
that was fine because I knew it was remmed into the system but
apparently I’ve been doing it the wrong way so after the holidays
when I spoke to somebody Rebecca at Post Office Limited with
lottery she says that you don’t rem them in you activate them
first and then rem them in so this is what I’ve been doing now
this is what has been going on and also that’s the correct way
which I didn’t know so that’s what’s been really going on and this
is, the scratch card sales and Post Office paid and receipts from
29" of the 5" 09 up to the 21* of the 8", that’s like the periods
and what we’ve activated in and paid into the system which I’ve
_actually brought ‘em all but you know they’re all into.
4 SM _ Right ok.
5 AH _ But Chris Knight said that really I shouldn't hand them over but I
really want somebody to look at all these if possible because
that’s everything what I’ve done.
6 SM __ So what are you thinking has happened I mean 14,000 is a lot of
money.
7 AH Yeah I was really surprised, I knew it, I’m not surprised sorry I
knew it was that and it’s been going on and I just didn’t know
what to do. I was scared to ask to help to be honest so.
8 SM _ Ok let’s start right back from the beginning then when it started
_ok. So when did it actually start that you knew you’d got a loss?
9 AH __ I think it was like end of last year beginning of the year.
10 _SM__ Sosort of about December, January?
11. AH __ Yeah yeah.
12, SM___ Ok and so how did it start what happened can you remember?
13. AH __ Wellit started with the, I think these are the list of the transaction
corrections what I’ve received.
14 SM _ Soit started with transactional corrections?
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15 AH Yeah and every time I had to, you see every time I balanced a
monthly balance I make sure that they were exactly right the
figures.
16 SM___So you counted the stock?
17. _ AH __ Physically counted the stock what were in the.
18 SM _ Atthe end of each month?
19 AH _ Inthe, I can’t even think of what they’re called the containers
what we sell them from.
20 SM _ Yeah in the dispensers?
21. AH _ And obviously the remmed in ones what I had in the drawer
_because they were all on the system.
22 SM __ So you counted all your scratch cards at the end of each month?
23 AH Well l used to count them on a Wednesday morning when I
balanced or sometimes even before that I used to count them
keep a check on them every week.
24 SM__ So when you’re balancing, you did it every week?
25 AH _ Yeah tried to keep an eye on them every week and then make
sure I physically counted them when I did the monthly balance to
_make sure but there always seemed to be wrong.
26 SM _ So from your perspective then you counted your scratch cards
and it seemed to balance with what the Horizon was saying?
27 AH __ Notalways no I always had to.
28 SM _ Almost nothing major is that what you’re saying?
29 AH _ Well there were some what, I mean this was just an example
from before but before it’s been higher. I don’t understand what.
30 SM _— So what do you think has been happening with the scratch
_cards?
31 AH _ She says when the transaction correction comes through when I
accept it it higher them up for some reason it higher the stock
levels which I don’t understand I admit to that I just don’t
understand how it works so to get it exactly right I had to make
sure that I got them to what I had you know what I’m selling ‘cos
I keep.
32 SM _— Ok don’t worry so when you get a TC in yeah transaction
correction in it highers the stock and then you have to adjust the
stock which creates the cash loss which you then put the money
in yeah?
33. AH _ Yeah.
34 SM _ So that’s what happens?
35 AH Yeah
36 SM _ Oksowhen you're started to get these transaction corrections in
has that been happening since December?
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37 AH _ Yeah! seem to have quite a few I think some on these days I
mean I don’t know if all these are, this goes back to the 6" of the
6h.
38 SM _— Ok they’re not big amounts are they so when you're put your
transaction correction in yeah and then you say you adjusted
your stock levels yeah that created a loss yeah?
39 AH ___ Yeah and that’ what keeps adding up.
40 SM _ And that’s what you keep.
41. AH ___ That’s what I kept adding up to get this.
42 SM _ So you kept adding the loss up on these?
43 AH __ Yeah.
44 SM _ Okonscratch cards and then what were you doing with the
loss?
45 AH _ Welll was falsifying my money which I admit to as well.
46 SM _ So you increased your cash amounts?
47 AH _ Yeah which I know I shouldn't have done but I was, I don’t know
why I didn’t ask for help earlier when it first started I don’t know I
don’t know why I did but. I can run the Post Office I really can
_(AH becomes upset)
48 SM _ Do you want a cup of tea or anything?
49 AH _ No. I've hada phone call just last week from, sorry Ann Heath
from Chesterfield rung me last week from the lottery team and
she rung me and I wrote this down that on the 3 September she
said something about I’ve got a 960 stock credit on scratch cards
and then she mentioned 22" July I've got a £75 credit in the
sales and on 25" August a £28 debit which is in the prizes which
is something I must have forgot to put on on the prizes and also
she’s told me as well that I’ve got another £800 stock credit to
my account but obviously ‘cos I can’t do anything about it ‘cos
I’m not in.
50 SM __ Ok it would go into the account and it will be deducted off the
final amount. So when did she say those credits were from what
date?
51 AH __ Welll think she says they are mine she says because.
52. S No I’m not saying they’re not yours but what dates is she talking
about?
53. AH Well she just mentioned 3 September, 22"? July and 25"
August but she didn’t say a day for that £800 stock but she says
that it's obviously before the people took over from after the
audit.
54 SM _ Okwecan have a look at that so they’re credits?
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55 AH Yeah and I did request the audit myself after speaking to Glenys
and she put me in touch with a lady and I wanted an audit myself
even before they came and did the on-line Horizon before a lady
came and obviously got in touch because of the amount what
was losing and I did talk to her about it then she rung her
Manager and obviously this is when they all started the ball
rolling sort of thing but I did request I think it was about a week
or 10 days before the change over that I would like an audit at
my office so that’s when I, ‘cos after that and after when I came
back off holiday I just looked at it and I just thought right this is
_ time to get this sorted.
56 SM __ Sowhen was you on holiday?
57 AH _ The first two weeks in August and when I came back I had this
other one.
58 SM __ So what made you decide to do it now and not before
59 AH _ Because it was just getting out of control and I just couldn’t cope
any more and I should have asked for help earlier and I didn’t, I
just, I’m ashamed of myself I really am I’ve let everybody down.
60 SM __ So what do you think has happened with these scratch cards?
61 AH _ Nothing I’ve been doing it correct and I thought I’d been doing it
correct but I think, I want somebody to have a look at the
receipts and the remmings in what I’ve done to try and tally it all
up because I actually think that some of the money is there I
mean some of the money what you get odd little ones for
cheques you know like your green giros you get transaction
corrections for green giros and sometimes you know if they've
lost one or I know one of them was for £57 and one of them was
for something else on a green giro but I have found one at the
moment ‘cos we’ve been looking through everything I have
found a green giro for £137 which I can remember I got a
transaction ‘cos it was missing you know so that was like a
minus against my office but I’ve actually found that so that’s
going to be sent off ‘cos we’ve been looking at some other stuff
last night and I’m going to send that off and obviously see if I can
get a credit for that ‘cos that was a missing giro but I just don't.
62 SM _— Sowhen you got the TC’s through let me just try and understand
what you did, so when you got the TC’s through yeah what were
you thinking what was going through your head?
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63. AH _ Ijust thought Oh God not another one. I just kept thinking why
but also as well I’ve been told that since these Newrose people
have been in my office I’ve been talking to the lady who’s been
there she says when you balance on a Wednesday night which I
just used to balance on a Wednesday night and that was it you
know but she says that you can’t roll over until the figures from
Wednesday have gone in but I didn’t know that I’d been doing
this all this time so.
64 SM _ Sorry try and explain that to me again what figures from
Wednesday?
65 AH _ Right you know right my shop opens half past six on a morning
_while half past nine?
66 Ss You mean your lottery figures is that what you’re talking about?
67 AH _ Yeah so my lottery figures wasn’t going in while Thursday
morning but apparently they should have been part of the
balance on Wednesday so I should have been.
68 SM __ Okdid you have 2 stock units?
69 AH_ Nolnever did.
70 SM __ You didn’t have a lottery stock unit?
71. AH_ Noldidn'’t.
72 SM _ Okso you're saying that, but that would have created a
_ transactional correction ‘cos it would have, it just would have?
73 AH _ Idon't know it always seemed to be after a balance that I got
these.
74 SM __ Ok but from the scratch card perspective ok you should have
what the machine says that’s what should happen yeah so
you've got your scratch cards you’ve got 100 scratch cards it
should say 100 scratch cards in your Horizon in your system ok.
If you get a TC through that says you were short 50 scratch
cards or whatever yeah I don’t know how they word it or
whatever and so you put that TC in that would tell you then
you've got 150 scratch cards on Horizon but actually you’ve only
got 100 so you adjust your stock figure which would then give
you £50 or whatever it was shortage yeah so that’s how that
works it’s a round about thing. Scratch cards sales who sells
scratch cards in your branch?
75 AH Well it’s in the shop part so I sell them, my full time member of
staff Barbara she sells them and then we've got 2 part timers
Donna and.
76 SM __ Okso there’s a few people that actually.
77 AH _ I've got Barbara, Sarah, Donna I did have 5 members of staff but
one’s left and then but it’s just the, but Sarah has only been with
me for about I’d say about 6 to 8 weeks so Sarah's not really.
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78 SM __ Sarah wasn’t there when all this was happening ok.
79 AH _ Itwas Donna and Barbara.
80 SM _ Okso Donna and Barbara and the one that’s left?
81. AH _ Yeah.
82 SM _ And when did the one leave?
83 AH _ She left well probably about 6 to 8 weeks ago ‘cos Sarah took
_over I don't.
84 SM _Alll’m asking, I’m not saying anything all I’m saying is that
you've got members of staff there. When you counted your
scratch cards and since this has been going on it’s been going
_on for a long time yeah?
85 AH _ Yeah.
86 SM _ Have you done anything about checking staff?
87 AH _ Icheck it every day.
88 SM _ Checking staff. You check it every day you check what every
day?
89 AH __ I check the lottery every day.
90 SM _ Socheck what on the lottery every day?
91 AH _ Well when obviously I’ve got a system for like when the scratch
cards finish you know like you sell them every day ‘cos
sometimes I might sell 50 and sometimes I might sell 150 it just
depends so I’ve got a, I should have brought a piece with me to
show you actually but I haven't. It’s like just an A4 piece of
paper and it’s dated like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,
Thursday so it’s Mondays is what I start with so at the end of the
night when I close the shop up I write down what it’s finished at
and then the next column is how much I’ve sold that day.
92 SM _ Is that scratch cards?
93 AH __ Yeah scratch cards just the scratch cards.
94 SM __ Sodo you physically count them every day then?
95 AH _ Not every day no it’s just what’s on the you know obviously the
number what's pulling out I just check the numbers.
96 SM _ So the number on the machine?
95 AH The number on the scratch cards as you're pulling them out
yeah.
96 SM __ Do you, when you put it into your retail till is that where it goes
would you have a separate till?
97 AH _ Noit gets separate we keep the lottery separate and we keep
the Post Office pay station separate.
98 SM _ Okso you have a separate till?
99 AH __ Well it's a box it’s like a safe box but.
100 SM __ Buta separate till?
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Yeah.
Ok so for your lottery and, is it on-line lottery or is it just scratch
cards?
_It's the lottery as well.
On-line ok. I thought it was I was just checking just to make
sure. Ok so you keep a separate box where staff are meant to
put that money into?
The lottery money yeah.
Ok so when you count that money up how often do you do that?
I count it every morning, usually I’m opening up every morning
so I check it all through.
- Ok and when you check that through then what do you compare
it to?
The figures what it should be on the.
_On your tally?
Well yeah but I don’t think I’ve got one here actually it tells you.
_Ok so you use the figure that comes off the system?
Yeah we did have them in here actually yeah it’s like, for
example that’s how I put them into the system so on that day
that’s how many I’ve sold of each one.
Ok and those figures have come from?
It's, well my piece of paper my A4 paper with the scratch cards
and the top bit’s the National Lottery that comes off a slip of
paper like this every day.
Ok so the lottery the instants yeah that comes off your
_calculations on your piece of paper?
My Aé4 piece of paper yeah and the National Lottery you go into
the reports.
The National Lottery's off the system isn’t it.
And it goes off the system and that tells you how many lottery’s
you've done and what prizes you’ve paid out.
_Ok and then you transfer that, those figures to?
_ Into the Horizon system yeah.
TO Horizon system ok. Now does your figures ‘cos I haven't
seen an instant dispenser so bear with me, well I’ve seen one
but I haven't seen, you’re talking about it calculates it are you?
When you pull the scratch card out what happens?
No you just tear it off and.
_Right so how do you know how many are left in the dispenser?
Because you can tell on the, say if it. Well there’s 160 ona
pound one so Say if I’ve sold 25 that will say, that would be 25 so
_ then you know how many’s left on.
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126 SM _ So your system would say 20 pulling it off it says 25 gone.
127 AH _ It’s hard to explain.
128 SM _ I'll have to go and have a look at one.
129 AH _ Yeah it’s like they’re all in separate obviously pound ones and
then so they're all in there and you put the, like if it’s the pound
ones 159 will be at the back shoved at the front and then number
0 which it starts on is at the front.
130 SM _— Ohright so ok so your numbers are there so they’re numbered?
131. AH Yeah so your numbers are there yeah they’re all numbered so
then you obviously start at 0 so if I sold 10 then would be
number 10 then what you, so then you know that there’s 149 left
sort of thing in there that’s how I count them.
132 SM __ Iunderstand, does anybody have, so your scratch cards are
numbered so you know what numbers are coming off so you
keep your record every day of the numbers that should be there
ok and your TC’s have been scratch cards is that what you’re
saying to me?
133. AH _ Alot of them have yeah.
134 SM _ Yeah ok so obviously there’s been a discrepancy there
somewhere?
135 AH _ Yeah.
136 SM __ Rightso if you've got your records do your records always tally
up with the amount of money you have got in your box so if say
let's say your records say you’ve sold 10 £5 have you always got
_£50 in your box?
137 AH Sometimes I have where there’s been a couple of pound when
it's very busy you know.
138 SM _ Yeah you can get mixed up?
139 AH You can get mixed up if it goes in pay station in till but I've
_always, I’ve put money in you know to compensate that.
140 SM __ Ok but then you balance it up ok.
141. AH _ And at the moment the staff because of all this what’s gone on
now, all the staff what’s working that day, if there’s a loss with
the lottery at the end of the night and the pay station then
whoever’s worked that day so if it's me, Barbara and Sarah we
have to put the money in whatever's missing because I think
that’s, instead of me just putting it in then that’s how we've tried
_to resolve things now because I don’t want any more.
142 SM _ Okdid you ever, ok when you got the TC’s through did you ever
think back to who’s been working during that period?
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Well I know I trust them completely ‘cos I wouldn’t have them
working in the shop otherwise and Barbara’s actually my cousin
she’s a relative is Barbara and she’s worked for me for 3 1% year
now?
Ok so we don’t think there’s anything going there, from what I’m
hearing yeah, let me just go through this with you right so we’ve
got dispensers with stock in yeah, if this is what’s happening
obviously. We've got dispensers with stock in, we’re tallying it
up every night and we’re putting the figures through so that
sounds like it’s balancing but we’re getting transactional
corrections through?
Yeah it seemed after I'd done a balance it were.
- So does all these transactional corrections amount up to
£14,000 or is there an issue somewhere else?
I think well I think majority is, I want them to be looked at if
possible so I’ve been told that I’ve to keep them too because
obviously it’s my evidence against this case but if I have to
photocopy every single one then I would because I want
somebody at Chesterfield what probably knows a bit more than
what I do, this is the proof that I’ve put them into the system and
I've remmed them in the system after you know I’m not.
Have you checked these against those ‘cos this is what Camelot
said and this is what’s been put in writing so have you checked
that against them?
_ We've been going through it and yeah ‘cos we've been looking.
_Ok and anything come up?
I’m not sure actually it's Richard who’s been doing it ‘cos I think
this is what he’s put he’s got then this off of this and off of all
these in here.
But there’s not a lot of difference is there in that and that so what
you're saying is then this is what's activated this is what’s been
paid in and that’s the difference?
Yeah but we want them to be double checked if possible we
want these, to me these is more the proof in here but I just want
to say that I have not touched a penny of Post Office’s money.
Ok who works in the Post Office just yourself or?
_ Kimberley Langley and Marjory Higgins who only does one day.
Ok and your account, and you obviously yeah
_ Yeah so obviously I work in there as well.
So Marjory works one day?
_Yeah.
What does Kimberley do?
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161 AH She does Monday, Tuesday and Thursdays.
162 SM_ And what day does Marjory do?
163 AH — Just Tuesdays.
164 SM __ Tuesday and yourself then is there the rest of the time?
165 AH Yeah.
166 SM __ Ok. Isit 2 position?
167 AH __ Yeah.
168 SM __ Rightso when you’ve, do you do your cash declaration?
169 AH_ Yes.
170 SM _ What do you do when you do your cash declaration talk me
through your cash dec?
171, AH _ Well obviously I count the money up and I’ve obviously been
_falsifying accounts.
172 SM __ Ok but generally you count the cash do you physically count the
cash?
173. AH__ Yes! do yeah.
174 SM __ So you count everything?
175 AH Yeah we check all the, well we check every, we’re one of these
branches what get a lot of change paid into ‘cos one of ladies
she’s got an amusement you know and we've to check hers all
time ‘cos it just gets a bit then when people then come in with TV
you know with £1’s so we seem to get a lot of change but we
have got a system where we know how much is, you know we
can’t sometimes always fit it in the safe but it is secured in the
secure area.
173 SM__ Ok so you count your cash and stock and you declare that?
174 AH _ Yeah.
175 SM __ Do you have a look whether it’s balancing or not on a daily
_basis?
176 AH __ Yeah we know.
177 SM _— You check your button and?
178 AH Yeah we know it’s not yeah.
179 SM _ Okso you check that daily ok. So that would have shown on a
daily basis that it’s not balancing?
180 AH _ Yeah.
181. SM = Ok now has that, well I would imagine it has but you can answer
me on this one, the 14,000 yeah has this been gradual over
_ since December?
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182 AH _ I think it’s just before Christmas and then I didn’t, but I seem to
have more this year. It just seems every time, sometimes when I
switch the computer on I just think ‘cos I know it’s going to be
lottery again and I just think why are they keep sending me
these.
183. SM _ Okno that’s TC’s let’s just think about the sort of balancing
aspect ok so when you've done your cash dec obviously you
keep talking about lottery so do you definitely think that’s where
_this issue is that it can’t be anywhere else?
184 AH I knowIl’ve had some other transaction corrections with other
things but I think a lot of it is down to lottery because every time I
seem to balance I get a letter saying that it’s not right and then I
get another transaction correction and I just think, I don’t know
it’s just got all on top of me and this is when I've finally realised
that I needed your help.
185 SM_ Right ok did you have some training for lottery in February?
186 AH __ In February, no it were.
187 SM __ Anintervention visit did somebody come and see you?
188 AH No somebody came, he were here when I actually did my
training 6 year ago, I just can’t think of his name I just know he
lives in Mirfield and he came and I was showing him how, ‘cos I
just read the book and what I thought was the right way actually
remming them in first and then activate them but obviously it
wasn't it was the wrong way but I showed him, I can remember
showing him saying ‘cos when he came that day he were only
here for about an hour and I told him I were putting things in he
says oh yeah that seems to be fine and that was it and you know
I didn’t get anything else so I’ve actually done it myself by, but
obviously I haven’t been doing it properly.
189 SM _ Okso you think the issue is due to remming them in and then
_activating them?
190 AH _ Yeah.
192 SM _ Iwill have to check that because I don’t know the answer to that
but I wouldn’t have thought it would have made any difference
but again.
193 AH But I'd like to also know as well that they said that when they did
the audit that there was some £400 on stock which I'd like to
know about because I'd only balanced the week before and I
don’t know what the stock is and could I get.
194 SM __ Sowhere the error is on the stock?
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Yeah ‘cos I don’t understand that so that made that up to £400
which I didn’t know about, I don’t know what they’ve done
obviously ‘cos I haven't been in since but I’d like to know what. I
think he said it were.
I’ve got the audit here somewhere.
Yeah he said something yeah bout 446.03 but I don’t know,
understand.
Right so you don’t understand what it is?
I don’t know what that is.
_ Ok well I'll get that confirmed.
And the also the audit man says as well about the saying that I
haven't sent some of the scratch cards back as well which I’ve
got, that’s a letter to say that I have sent them back, he was
saying that I haven’t sent some back and I have proof of that that
I did. It’s like I say I only balanced the week before and I didn’t
have £400 in stock issues. I don’t know if it was summat to do
with the stamps or something what they've seen and they've
took them out or if I’ve missed something on the stamps line I
don’t know.
Ok well what I’ll do is I'll verify that and I can get back to you with
that. Ok right so from December then up ‘til the time of
suspension this has built up to £14,000?
Yes.
Yeah and you feel that is all in the scratch cards am I hearing
you right or do you feel that there’s some maybe?
Well if they’re going to look at it I'd like to look I don’t know into, I
mean I've give Chris Knight the staff members telephone
numbers and details and I think he’s going to talk to them but.
Ok right but you’ve been hiding well been falsifying the accounts
to?
I have yeah and I admit that and I shouldn't have done. I just!
_ don’t know I was scared.
What was scaring you what was it that you were scared of?
Because I knew I’d been in for this trouble and I haven’t touched
a penny I haven't (AH begins to cry).
Ok ok so you felt that you couldn’t tell us there was an issue?
Yeah I don’t know why because I was trying to sort it myself.
So what was you trying to do?
Well every spare minute I was going through all paperwork to try
and find it.
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214 SM = Okso what did you think, you talked about scratch cards I’m
trying to sort of get to the bottom of this obviously so was there
any major time when there was a big rise in this, how did it come
about, how much was it per month was it different amount was
it?
215 AH _ Itwas different amounts in I mean I can remember once on, it
said that I had £1332 in £1 scratch cards and I didn’t I had like
bloody 400 or summat so that made a big difference, if I'd have
put it down to that then that would have made a right difference
and I just and I did put it down and that’s when it starts adding
up. I just didn’t know what to do I just, I was trying to find by
going through all the bookwork you know every, every bloody
night I was doing it, sorry for swearing. I’ve learnt a lot in this
last 4 weeks that you are here to help me and I should have
asked and I’ve learned a lot off these people what's running it
because they've put like Kim’s been put she was working the
first week and then she’s been poorly has Kim who works for me
and she’s put hers on a, she’s put her on, they've put them onto
like separate obviously stock units which I could never, well I
never did that but if I get her back I would do that because then if
there’s something wrong with Kim or Marjory if Kim or Marjory’s
done summat wrong then they'll have to put the money in and if
I've done summat wrong then you know I would put the, if I could
just start again borrow and start from afresh with extra training or
anything but I don’t want to lose my job ‘cos I don’t know the
future of the Post Office then ‘cos we rely on that money for my
wage so it’s just. If somebody checks all these for me and if they
can come to a figure I'll pay every single penny back I will I’m not
a thief I do not pinch money from anybody I’ve never ever took
any money I’ve never been in trouble with anything from the law
or anything and I will pay it back and I can run the office, I can do
_ it, [just needed help and.
216 SM _— So have you had an experience in the past where you know
we've, you know you said you were scared to tell us or scared to
_ Say anything?
217 AH Nol don't know why I was scared I don’t know why, I was just
trying to sort it myself and I was trying to save money to put in
and make it so it was right and then I’ve just been silly I have, I’m
ashamed of myself. My family’s, I’ve upset everybody by doing
this ‘cos I’ve ruined everybody's life, sorry.
218 SM _ You're not part of the Federation are you?
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219 AH _ No. If you read that letter that’s what me and Richard’s done to
the Post Office since we went there. We've increased sales an
we've extended it twice and.
220 SM__ Do you want drink?
221 AH _ No.
222 SM _ So if you've had lottery since 2007 when did it start going
wrong?
223 AH _ It only seems to be in the last 10 to 12 months it seems to be
going.
224 SM __ Soitseems to have been about the last year or so yeah?
225 AH __ Yeah.
226 SM__ Okso prior to that it was working ok?
227 AH Yeah! seemed to be fine with it before I don’t know it just
seemed to be.
228 SM _ Ok were there any changes in that time so if you go back to
_where are we now October.
229 AH When I first started I’ve had some different staff.
230 SM __ Ok what Post Office and?
231 AH Both Post Office well there has been a change in the shop and a
change in the Post Office actually. Kim’s worked for me for I
think it’s nearly 3 year now has Kim and Marjory’s worked there
_ since day 1 since we took over.
232 SM __ Ok but the Post Office pretty sort of, staff would have been there
_ for a while?
233 AH Well there’s 2 Sue used to be there and Elaine I used to have
Elaine and Sue but they left a while ago.
234 SM _ OkIImean obviously all this will be taken into account when I
look through everything that’s been said today.
235 AH _ Sorry about all this.
236 SM _ That’s ok. So you've applied for another branch haven't you?
237. AH Yeah.
238 SM_ And?
239 AH We gotit.
240 SM _ Ok now you knew you'd got problems at Hightown at that time
yeah?
241 AH Yeah which I thought! could be sorting it to be honest.
242 SM _— So how did you think you were going to sort it, if you hadn’t
sorted it to that time how did you think you were going to be able
_to sort it?
243 AH __ ‘Cos I was trying to find it every spare minute.
244 SM __ But if you hadn’t found it since January up ‘til, I don’t know when
you went for your interview I don’t know what time that was?
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I think it was March.
Oh it was March was it so it was a while ago ok.
It’s ‘cos I’ve had problems with the building.
Yeah ok so that was March time you went for your interview
here?
[think I sat in this room.
_Right ok so that was a while ago right.
I don’t want to close the Post Office down ‘cos I know how much
my people it will affect but we've got to take these figures into
consideration. (indistinct) people have been waiting for 2 % year
to get their Post Office back and I’ve actually, well I’ve been
saying to my partner one of the staff who’s been helping who
works for Newrose I'd like to actually talk to her about you know
offering her the job to help me run Hightown and Robert Town
‘cos I know she can do it she’s very good at what she does and
I'm quite impressed with her and she’s really good with
customers so I'd like to ‘cos I know she has said a few things
about Newrose how ‘cos I know she lives near the Robert Town
branch and I know that somebody will be obviously with
experience of balancing and everything ‘cos I would share
myself between both Robert Town and Hightown ‘cos I know
you've to do so much in each and I'd like maybe to offer her a
position ‘cos she’s really good.
Ok I don’t think I’ve got anything else to add is there anything
_else you want to say?
That I haven’t took a penny I really haven't, I haven’t touched
any money at all I wouldn't dare, I’m ashamed of what I’ve done.
Not ashamed, ashamed that I’ve let it go on so long without
asking for help. If I’d have known all this about doing, you know
the remming in properly and stuff and activating then all this
might not have happened, it might not have got to this blooming
stage.
So do you feel then, I don’t know what I’m hearing from you with
this, do you feel that that’s where the issue’s happened, I’m not
sure what you’re saying here?
_I don’t know I just don’t know I just.
I mean I'll go back and ask the question of whether it makes any
difference at all which I don’t think it does but I’ll certainly ask the
_ question.
What's that sorry?
The remming in and the activating ‘cos that’s what you’re saying
isn't it?
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259 AH WellI just, is there anybody who could come and look through all
this, is there anybody who can help with this, can I get any
further assistance with it. Could somebody come through and
go through it with me and I’ve got everything there to prove that
I’ve done it and.
260 SM _ We wouldn't do that, you’ve got your stuff there to go through. I
mean we'd look at the sort of figures that we’ve got which are
what's gone in and what Horizon’s got.
261 AH _ Soifl, ‘cos we've asked for help off Camelot itself you know like
a security man and he can’t give us any information you know
‘cos we wanted to go back to every scratch card we've activated
on that system which we've got it all but can we go sit down then
and go through every activation to see how many scratch cards
we've activated since day one to see if it, I don’t know what to do
any more my mind’s just like mushed.
262 SM _ So you're convinced that this is scratch cards ‘cos will the TC’s
_amount to £14,000?
263 AH _ I don't know ‘cos I’ve, every time I’ve done a balance I’ve put
them down to what the system says I have or put them,
obviously counted them physically and I’ve put it down and every
time it were never up it always down it were always minus. I
mean that’s just one.
264 SM __ That will be when your TC goes in?
265 AH _ Yeah.
266 SM _— So every month you’re having TC’s coming is that what you're
_saying?
267 AH _ No but before I balanced I were putting them down to what they
should, what I was holding which is the correct holding what I
was holding and it were never right it were never and I should
have asked for help, I should have said right come on I need
help with this. Why is it always saying that Horizon says I’ve got
this many but I’ve actually got that many and it always, I think
there were just a few occasions where I might have had a few
more than what I should have done and but why don’t it. I don’t
know. I just want my job back I just want to save my job. It’s just
brought so much stress on everybody. I don’t know what else to
say ‘cos I just don’t know what. Unless I physically go through
all them and find everything what we’ve done then but if
nobody’s going to look at them how can, it proves that I’ve been
remming them in and activating them and how many I’ve got but
every time I balanced or every time before I balance I checked
them.
268 SM _ Sowhen you said that you keep these A4 sheets yeah?
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269 AH _ Yeah.
270 SM __ Soare you saying to me on these A4 sheets that they always
_balanced with what stock you’d got?
271 AH __ No because that’s just, that wasn’t the, that’s nowt to do with
how many were in the system that’s just to do with how many we
sell daily just to make sure it’s right.
272 SM _ Oksoif you started off with 200 scratch cards yeah at the
beginning of the week and you’d counted them so you knew
that’s what you’d got ok?
273, AH Yeah.
274 SM _ Monday you sell 3 yeah so that gives you 197 yeah, Tuesday
you sell 20 so that leaves you with 177 yeah and so on yeah so
during the week we’ve sold 120 for the rest of the week ok so in
theory you should have?
275 AH __ Should have 80 left.
276 SM __ 57 left.
277 AH __ 57 sorry.
278 SM __ Ok that’s simple yeah so we start off with this amount we’ve got
this amount left?
279 AH Yeah.
280 SM _ Sodo you on a Wednesday let's say we started this on the
Wednesday when we’d balanced so Thursday morning that’s
what we’d got so Wednesday night we've got that many left so
_do you physically count them then?
281 AH On the Wednesday or the?
282 SM _ On the Wednesday?
283 AH I count them on the Wednesday morning before we start
_ business.
284 SM __ So Wednesday morning you would count them?
285 AH To make sure they were right and then I'd have a look on, I’d go
to like the adjust stock screen and see what it says and I’d put
them to what they was and it always, it was always wrong.
286 SM Oksoona Wednesday morning then you would count your
_ Stock?
287 AH _ Yeah.
288 SM _ Ok and that would be what you'd start with for the following
week, would you recount them on the Thursday?
289 AH No.
290 SM_ Noso you would start with that figure for the following week?
291 AH = Yeah but I’d adjust it, it tell me, you know if, like that if it told me
if that’s what I had.
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292 SM _ No yeah ok. Sol’m just trying to get, just bear with me on your
sheet on your A4 sheet yeah so we’ve sold all those we've got
57 left on Wednesday morning ok hypothetical obviously. You
then go along to your Horizon and have a look at that and see
what the Horizon says you’ve got ok but during that week you’ve
had 2 TC’s come through it’s all hypothetical and it meant that
you needed to adjust your stock by 20?
293 AH _ Yeah.
294 SM _ So that would have inflated Horizon to 77?
295 AH Yeah.
296 SM __ So then you’d adjust it back to 57 which is the stock you say
you've got and that would leave you with £20 short?
297 AH ___ Yeah but obviously the figures were higher than that.
298 SM _ Yeah no hypothetically that’s how it should work yeah ok so what
did you do with any sales that happened on Wednesday?
299 AH _ I put them through on the Thursday morning which now I know I
should have put them through on the, I shouldn’t have rolled
over until them figures were in on the Wednesday because it
were part of that stock balance and not this new one which I
_didn’t know that’s summat else I’ve learned.
300 SM _ Ok but it shouldn’t cause a major difference ok so right ok so
from Wednesday morning whatever time you did your check
yeah any sales after that would go in on Thursday on the
_following week’s balance?
301 AH __ Yeah but then that’s when I seemed to get a TC.
302 SM _ That’s when you'd get your TC.
303 AH Oraletter through saying that I haven't done it right because but
obviously they’d add up as well because I was putting them
through, it should have been on that monthly balance and not
this one.
304 SM __ Soit wouldn't balance on the two yeah on the two weeks ok right
ok so I understand that but that’s not going to make a massive
_difference is it ok?
305 AH Wellit’s like if I sold, I mean sometimes on a Wednesday when
it's actually the lottery night I can sell quite a few I mean
sometimes I can sell 200 stock scratch cards in that day maybe
more it just depends you know what, obviously the figures are in
there what we sell a week and stuff and you know if. I mean if.
306 SM _ Oksowhen you talk about shortages yeah so when you balance
you've got a shortage?
307 AH _ Yeah.
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308 SM Ok how did you keep a record of where that shortage was
occurring, ‘cos you said you increased the cash levels yeah?
309 AH Just well I just kept it at side on a piece of scrap paper.
310 SM _— So you wrote it on a piece of paper so you knew where you were
ok?
311. AH __ Yeah.
312 SM __ Soif you were previous month 2,000 short yeah and then this
month you were say 5,000 short yeah which would increase it to
7, were you always 5,000 short on, was there always TC tallying
it up with the shortage that was occurring, do you understand
what I’m saying?
313 AH No.
314 SM __ So if you'd got £5,000 shortage yeah how did your TC’s balance
with that?
315 AH No because I wasn’t, obviously I might have been a bit out on
stamps or something or stamps might have increased I just.
316 SM _ Okso the shortage didn’t always balance with your TC’s?
317 AH No.
318 SM Ok! don't think I’ve got a lot else I need to ask you at this
moment in time. I'll go and I'll ask the question on the rem in
and activated yeah and your £400 stock and I'll get back to you
on that ok. Any further questions I have I’ll come back to you
with otherwise what happens now is that I will look at what
you've put forward, I will look at documentation from scratch
cards etc and make a decision on what evidence I’ve got ok. If
the decision is to terminate the contract you do have the right to
appeal against that decision ok. It will all be in a letter that I
send to you so you have the right to appeal against that, it will be
heard by somebody totally independent to the case that hasn't
seen the case ok. If it’s reinstatement that’s what it says you
know and then obviously we would talk about that ok so do you
understand where we're going with this?
319 AH Yeah is it going to be another 4 week process or?
320 SM _ No this sort of process once I’ve got the evidence if it’s going to
take longer than a week I will ring you alright but obviously it
shouldn't take that sort of length of time. If you think of anything
else in the meantime you can contact me via the helpline or have
_you got Chris’ number?
321 AH _ I’ve got Chris’ card yeah ‘cos I think he’s going to be talking, ‘cos
obviously I had a Solicitor when I was present with Chris and
‘cos I’ve give him all my bank account details and stuff and the
Solicitor sent me a letter saying that obviously he’d been
speaking to Chris again and could you look into this with Anne.
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322 SM _ Oh yes of course yeah I’ve got that written down. Ok anything
else you'd like to say?
323. AH ___NoI'm just sorry for all the trouble I’ve caused.
Meeting ended.
Interview notes received and agreed
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