POL00166599
POL00166599
a,
i
ROYAL MAIL - CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape
Recorded Interview
Person Interviewed
(WQ) WILLIAM JOHN QUARM Number of pages:
Place of Interview PAIBLE POST OFFICE
Production No:
Signature of interviewing
officer producing summary
Date of Interview 7.8.08
Time commenced 10.50 Time concluded 11.34
Duration of interview 44 MINUTES. Tape referenceno 071081
Interviewing Officer(s) (RG) RAYMOND GRANT (RD) ROBERT DAILY
Other persons present (JB) JOHNATHAN BISSET (WM) WILLIAM MACDONALD
Tape Person Text
I counter speaking
I times
RG This interview is being tape recorded my name is Raymond Grant, my colleague
is Robert Daily and Johnathan Bisset we're Officers of Post Office Limited
Investigation team it’s our job to investigate possible criminal offences against the
business. Also present is yourself?
WwaQ Bill Quarm.
RG And
WM William McDonald
) RG The date is the 7" August 2008 the time according to my watch is 10.50 hours.
i This interview is being conducted in Paible
I waQ Post Office.
RG Post Office and I want to explain, ask you some questions about the accounting
j irregularities which were discovered during the audit do you understand what I’m
I talking about now?
WQ Yes I do.
RG Yeah ok. At the end of the interview I will give you a notice explaining what
happens to the tapes do you have any objection to the interview being tape
recorded?
waQ No.
1.03 RG I mentioned my colleague Johnathan Bisset he’s here on a training capacity do
you have any objection to him remaining?
GS016 (Scotland)
Version 5.0 05.07
Royal Mail is» trading name of Royal Mal Group pl. Registered number 4138203, Registered in England and Wales. Registered ofie: 148 Old Street, LONDON, ECIV SHQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
10
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
1.10 WwaQ No I don’t.
RG Ok thank you. Would you please state your full name?
waQ William John Quarm.
RG My name is Raymond Grant and also present is?
RD Robert Daily.
JB Johnathan Bisset.
WM William MacDonald.
RG During this interview you can have a friend present if you wish any friend whom
you nominate must be at over the age of 18 and not involved in the enquiry.
They should be a Post Office Limited employee I understand because of the
nature of where we are on a Heberdian Island that might not be easy to get our
hands on and I'm quite happy to have your friend William MacDonald happy to
be here as a friend yeah?
I wQ Right.
RG Ok so the next part is I've got a form here which needs to be completed with
regard to your friend being here and if you could just read that first part you don’t
I have to read it out but if you could read that and then just complete the section
below. Now have you read and understood that?
waQ Yeah.
I RG Could you just complete this section below here please? Let's see if we can get
you something for you to lean on. I make the time 10.53. Now William if you
could read the bottom half of that form there and if you could just complete that
section for me. The time 54 now. If you could just put William’s name in there
just in that gap there. That's excellent thank you very much. William Quarm has
read and signed form 003 and his friend William MacDonald has completed the
lower half of that form. William I've got to advise you that I consider you to be a
suspect in a criminal offence. You're going to asked questions about the
accounting irregularities discovered during the audit which was held here at
Paible Post Office some 3 weeks ago. You're not bound to answer of these
questions but any, if you do so your answers will be, may be noted will be tape
recorded and may be used in evidence do you understand that?
WwQ Yes I do.
5.32 RG First of all a bit about your experience how long have you been Postmaster at
Paible Post Office?
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Mailis a trading name of Royal Mail Group ple. Registered umber 4138203. Registered in England and Wales. Registered office: 148 Old Steet, LONDON, BCIV 9HQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
if
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
5.37 WwaQ 14 year.
RG 14 year and when you commenced employment or your contract
(Telephone rings). Do you want to get that?
RG When you commenced your contract for services at Paible Post Office did you
receive any training?
WwQ No.
RG No how did you learn about how to perform the roll of Sub Postmaster at Paible?
WwQ We had a girl employed here at the time.
RG Right so although you were Postmaster you didn’t have any hands on running?
waQ Not to start with no.
RG Right you had somebody actually employed to do it right ok and from there then
when that person I take it that person has finished?
wa Yeah.
RG Did you then take over the running of the Post Office?
wQ Yeah.
RG Did you learn from here then?
WQ Yeah but I covered her all her holidays and I covered every Saturday, Saturday
morning.
RG Ok so but she was the person who prepared balances did the daily reports and
things like that you would fill in?
WwQ Yeah.
RG Is that my understanding?
WwQ Yes.
RG Ok did you then, following that then did you receive any formal training from the
Post Office?
WQ On the Horizon system?
RG When the new Horizon computer system in what form did that training take?
wa I was trained to be a trainer.
RG Ok.
WQ I was taken down to Dunfermline.
RG Ok down at the Crown Office at Dunfermline?
waQ Yeah.
RG They've got a training suite there.
7.14 wa Yeah.
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Mails a tading name of Royal Mail Group ple. Registered number 4138203, Registered in England and Wales. Reystered office: 148 Old Street, LONDON, EC1V 9HQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
rue
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
7.12 RG Yeah and how long did that training last?
WQ 4 days I think.
RG Right so. You were taken down there given some formal training of how the
system operated?
waQ Mm
RG How confident when you came away from that that you were able to perform that
roll as training other people?
WQ (Laughs) not very because there was then a gap between the training and.
RG The equipment being installed?
waQ Yeah.
RG Right ok right. Did you then receive any further training you know on the
development or was it something you've just been able to pick up when you go
along?
wQ Only where there was training work for that.
RG Ok have you ever found the need to use the helpdesk at all when you know if
there's a transaction with which you're not familiar?
wQ Oh yes.
RG Yeah so you know that facility is there?
wQ Yeah.
RG Ok given that Horizon’s been in now 4 years, 3 years.
waQ 4 I think.
RG 4 years, how would you rate your hands on experience of Horizon now?
waQ Well it’s changing all the time so.
RG Yes it’s evolving yeah absolutely we're getting a new one coming yeah. So
there’s new products new processes new everything but do you feel confident
about working these processes. On a sale of 1 to 10 how would you rate your
knowledge of the Horizon system?
WQ Well the whole Horizon system probably quite a low figure because we only have
certain.
RG Products.
wQ Products which sell here.
RG Yeah ok ok. But with those products that you sell from this office how would you
rate that then?
9.05 WQ Well happy enough with that.
GSOTEA (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Mails a tading name of Royal Mail Group ple. Registered number 4138203, Registered in England and Wales, Registered office: 148 Old Stree, LONDON, ECIV 9HQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
ROYAL MAIL - CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
9.06 RG Working knowledge yeah.
wa Yes.
RG Yeah confident?
WwQ Yeah.
RG Ok the hours of the Paible Post Office are what? What hours of opening do you
have here?
wQ 9 to half past 5 Monday to Friday, sorry Monday, Tuesday, Thursday Friday with a
lunch break at 1.
RG Right you don’t open Wednesday?
WwQ Wednesday morning 9 to 12.
I RG And Saturday?
I wa 9 to 12.
I RG Ok right so it’s a 6 day week office are you here every day?
WwaQ Yes.
RG Yeah so who else, does anybody else work in Paible Post Office?
wQ Yeah I employed Sheila Acford part time.
RG Right and how many hours did Sheila work?
Wa Well we changed it round from time to time she was on afternoons.
RG Right so it was kind of, she would be flexi in the cover if you didn’t need her you
would say “I’m not needing you today” is that the way?
WQ No well she worked Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday afternoons.
i ) RG On your busier days ah?
I wa Mm
/ RG Right and when balances needed to be done perhaps would she be here?
I WwaQ No not on a Wednesday.
RG No ok so Sheila’s experience as a counter assistant did she take part in any of the
weekly or daily reportings?
wa No.
RG No so you would do them?
wQ Yes.
RG Ok. The Post Office is sited at the far end of your retail outlet yeah, is this area of
the Post Office alarmed separate from the Post Office, separate from the shop
waQ Alarmed?
10.53 RG Alarmed yeah?
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Malis a trading name of Royal Mail Group ple. Registered number 4138203, Registered in England and Wales. Registered office: 148 Old Street, LONDON, ECIV 9HQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
10.54 WwQ Yes.
RG Yeah so nobody could get in here if they didn’t know the alarm system is that the
way it works?
WwQ Yeah.
RG So do you have an alarm in your shop?
waQ No
RG No so it’s only the Post Office area that's alarmed?
WwQ Yeah.
RG Would Sheila know the code to get into the Post Office area?
waQ No.
RG No right would she have access to it does she have a set of keys for instance?
WwQ A key for that door yes.
RG She has a key for the door, would she have a key for the safe?
WwaQ No.
RG No where would, how many sets of keys do you have?
wa 2.
RG 2 sets of keys?
waQ Yeah.
RG So you have 1 working set and one elsewhere?
wQ Yeah.
RG I don’t need to know where they are right now it’s just so you've got 2 sets of keys
you keep one for yourself, Sheila's got a key for the Post Office outer security door
but not for the safes.
WwaQ Well when she’s working she would have the safe key.
RG Right ok. Does anybody else ever come behind the counter in the secure area of
the Post Office?
wQ No.
RG No
WwQ Apart from maintenance people or.
RG Visitors or contractors?
wa Yeah
RG Do you have a visitors book here at all?
waQ Because we had, not when that door was open.
12.10 RG This one?
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Mailis a trading name of Royal Mail Group ple. Registered number 4138203, Registered in England and Wales, Registered office: 148 Old Street, LONDON, ECIV 9HQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
12.11 WwQ Yeah.
RG Right.
WwQ And the back office system for the shop was, is in there.
RG Right into your retail outlet office?
wa Yes.
RG Yes ok.
WQ And that door was sealed off, the one that we're using now.
RG Ok.
WwQ So I've changed that, I changed that over on Saturday.
RG Right ok right what was that because of the fact that the Post Office is currently
closed?
WwQ Well they offered Sheila it now
RG Yeah I believe so I believe so. I think there’s a trainer coming up next week to
show her round I'm not sure. I just know the hotel that we're staying in last night
there’s somebody booked in for next week. So we have nature of duties of
yourself then you had sole responsibility for doing the daily reports for sending
away the, if you got a cheque in you would send the cheques away if you got giro
banks deposit you would send the deposit slips away is that correct?
waQ Yeah
RG On, you're required by the Post Office to produce a 4 weekly or 5 weekly
depending on which month branch trading statement. In-between times it's
optional whether you do a weekly balance do you actually do a weekly balance?
waQ Yeah.
RG Yeah ok. Did you find that helpful if you were trying to find mistakes or something
like that?
waQ Yes.
RG Yeah ok so when it comes to a branch trading statement who physically counts the
cash on hand?
WwQ I would.
RG Yeah ok whose responsibility was it for counting the stock would that be yourself
as well?
WQ Yes.
13.54 RG On a daily basis you're required to do a cash declaration whose responsibility for
that who would do that?
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Mails trading name of Royal Mail Group ple. Registered number 4138203, Registered in England and Wales, Registered office: 148 Old Street, LONDON, ECL 94Q
POL00166599
POL00166599
16
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
14.06 waQ Mostly me.
RG Mostly yourself at what time of day would you do that?
wa Between 5 and half past.
RG Would you ever ask Sheila to do a cash declaration?
wQ She did some yeah.
RG Right and would she actually input the figures into Horizon or would she just count
the cash and leave it for you to do how would it, what would be the process?
waQ She made a list.
RG She would make a list.
WQ Aye.
RG Don't try to cover up for her, I'm aware that you're being a bit hesitant with your
answers which makes me think that you’re guarding something and I’m just
thinking she’s not going to be in trouble if you have instructed her to do it you know
to count the cash and input the figures, she wouldn't end up in trouble if it's an
instruction from yourself do you understand where I’m coming from?
wQ (inaudible)
RG OK so we then get back would Sheila count the cash and put the figures into
Horizon?
wQ She does sometimes, on some occasions.
RG Yeah ok right so when it comes to the branch trading statement did Sheila ever
count the cash when you were doing a branch trading statement?
WwaQ No.
RG No that was always yourself?
wa mm.
RG Ok. Horizon requires you to have a unique user name and my understanding
yours would be WQU001 is that right?
WwQ Yeah
RG Do you have any other user names on the system?
WwQ Sheila’s got hers.
RG Sheila would have her own yeah?
wa Yeah
RG Yeah and you have a password?
WQ Yes.
15.56 RG Yeah would Sheila know your password?
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Mail is ating name of Royal Mail Group ple. Registered number 4138203, Registered in England and Wales. Registered office: 148 Old Street, LONDON, ECIV 9HQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking ,
times
15.58 WQ Not normally but sometimes if ones up the shop the other one’s.
RG Ok right so if you were logged on what you're saying to me I think is that if you
were logged onto the system Sheila would just come in and serve behind using
yours would that be correct?
WwQ It happened on occasions.
RG Yeah yeah but not regular?
wQ Not regular.
RG And it was for convenience sake rather than any other?
WwQ Yes that’s right.
RG Would you know Sheila's password?
WQ Sometimes I'd go and ask her if I needed it.
RG Similar circumstances yeah.
WwaQ Yes.
RG As in when?
WwQ Well if she was serving somebody up the shop and there’s a customer waiting to
be served here.
RG The important thing about and I’m just going to bring this to your attention is that
because we now have on-line banking and finance products the Financial Services
Authority require us to have unique passwords and unique user names so that we
can provide a robust audit trail. What your demonstrating to me is wasn’t as
robust here would that be a correct understanding?
WwQ Well yes on.
RG On occasion?
wa On occasion.
RG On occasion yeah. Ok anything up to now?
RD When Sheila did the cash declarations did you give her any specific instructions
when doing cash declarations?
wQ No.
RG Going on then to what happened at the audit, the audit team discovered a
shortage which has been declared to me as, excuse me a second £40,277.76p do
you agree with the audit findings, were you here when the audit took place?
waQ Oh well I was around yeah.
18.02 RG Yeah and did the auditors ask you do you agree their findings did you disagree
with what they discovered?
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Mail isa trading name of Royal Mail Group pl. Registered number 4138203, Registered in England and Wales, Registered office: 148 Old Stree, LONDON, ECIV SHQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
18.13 waQ Well I told them that I wasn’t happy because I was sure there was an error way
back in January February the ATM.
RG Right ok.
WQ Set up.
RG Right when did you get your ATM in?
WQ Several years ago.
RG Was it and you've had it a couple of years right ‘cos some offices are just getting
them now you see that's why I was asking. Now what do you suspect the error
with the ATM was then?
WwQ I can’t remember the details now. I worked out that there should have been a
I difference and I showed it on the, on the.
RG The branch trading statements?
wa Aye for a while and then somebody phoned me up and said why are you carrying
that?
RD How much was the difference?
wQ I don’t remember now.
RG Did you say January this year?
waQ January February.
RD Right ok. Where were you showing it on the branch trading statement?
RG Was it in the suspense account? It must be February ‘cos that's the one we don't
have. I've got January and I’ve got March and there's nothing on those on the
suspense account?
RD What did we do with that paperwork Raymond did you put it back?
RG No it’s there.
I RD (inaudible)
RG There was nothing I saw
RD But did you not see suspense account but, the suspense account
RG Yeah but it should still show on here though.
RD But I was thinking for period 11
RG Alright ok
RD For the 20" of the 2°.
RG For the purpose of the tape we're just going to go through a box of documents. It'll
be
20.32 RD February you said
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Mails a trading name of Royal Mail Group ple, Registered number 4138203, Registered in England and Wales, Registered office: 148 OW Stret, LONDON, BCIV SHQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
20.33 RG It's aye period 11 so it'll be 44 to 48 and that's 49.
RD 48 I don’t have 48
RG It's ok Robert it’s ok just leave it there.
RD 48's missing.
RG So the ATM then approximately what value can you remember what the value was
of the problem with the ATM?
waQ It was around 6, £700.
RG Right ‘cos I notice just from looking at your branch trading statements you keep
about £2,000 in the ATM on up or down?
wa Yeah.
RG Yeah so was that the whole amount of money from the ATM that the problem was
was it a certain amount of money? So you reckon that figure of £40,277 should be
slightly lower because of this problem?
Wa Yeah.
RG But we haven't been able to identify what the problem was?
waQ No.
RG Right ok and someone phoned you you said that you were holding it in the
suspense account and they said you shouldn't be holding it there?
WwQ Mm.
RG And did they ask you to remove it from there?
WwQ Yes.
RG Did they talk through the process of how to do that or did you know that?
WQ No.
RG No ok. And what did you actually do to resolve the problem with that then?
WwQ I must have showed that I was paying that money in.
RG Right ok so what, the way you're describing to me is that you're telling the Horizon
system that you've put that £700 in and then removed it from the suspense
account would that be correct?
waQ Yeah.
RG So the audit team were in they've come out with a figure of £40,277.76p here's
your opportunity to tell me how that came about? I’m not trying to trick you here
but you did write a letter into the Contracts Manager which I'm sure you are aware
is that a copy of the letter?
23.45 wQ Yes.
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Mailis a trading name of Royel Mail Group pe. Registered number 4138203, Registered in England and Wales. Registered ole: 148 Old Steet, LONDON, ECLV SHQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
0
ROYAL MAIL - CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
23.46 RG Do you want to have a quick read of that?
WwQ Yeah to keep going on the expectation I was going to get this bank loan which the
bank already approved I was moving money about.
RG Ok right.
RD Sorry Raymond for the benefit of the tape could you just confirm what it said in the
letter.
RG Yeah sure well basically it’s a letter from Mr. W. J. Quarm Bayhead Shop Paible
Post Office it's dated 28" July 2008 it's addressed to Brian Trotter Contracts
Manager and it’s a reference that how the shortage at Paible Post Office came
about. It’s a fairly lengthy letter I won't read it all out but it says that Mr. Quarm has
used Post Office money to supplement his retail business on the premise that he
had an agreed loan with the bank yeah and that was, the agreed loan in the bank
was also in conjunction with the sale of some property is that correct?
waQ Yeah.
I RG Would that be an accurate summary of what's in this letter?
I wa Yeah.
I RG Ok. From that, when did you start taking or using Post Office money for your own
use in the retail side when would that have kicked in. In your letter you mentioned
Autumn last year.
wQ Autumn's when I recognised that I could have a problem.
RG Right ok.
) wQ But it was after, after the I approached the bank.
I RG Ok so you approached the bank and the bank says yeah in principle.
I wa Subject to that.
RG What size of loan were you looking to get from the bank?
wQ 20,000.
RG Ok and that was to tide you over?
WQ Mm.
RG Over winter period or?
WwQ Well it was February onward.
RG Ok and what was it that you promised the bank that would allow them to give you
that money or was it for the pretext on the sale of some property that you had?
WwQ Yeah.
26.30 RG And what was the value of that property?
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Mai is a trading name of Royal Mail Group ple. Registered number 4138203, Registered in England and Wales, Registered office: 148 Old Street, LONDON, ECIV 9HQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
val
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
26.32 wa 50,000.
RG 50,000?
WwQ Yeah.
RG So you were selling a property at 50,000 the bank was lending you 20 on the
pretext that they would get your money back once your property was sold.
WwQ Yeah.
RG Is that the way it works yeah? Ok so the loan never came through it never came
through and it never came through so what was it you actually did to use Post
Office money I mean did you physically take it from the Post Office or did you start
paying bills with the Post Office or just generally how did you go about using the
Post Office money so that I mean we're now at the stage where the audit team's
results were £40,000 short. Was it a case that you needed to take 40,000 or did
you take or is it on a weekly basis where you've used Post Office money to pay
bills?
WwQ I's hard to describe what I did. I was transferring money on a weekly basis to the
Alliance and Leicester account.
RG Right you have an Alliance and Leicester account?
wQ Yeah.
RG And so is that a business account?
WQ Yeah.
RG Right so you've an Alliance and Leicester business account and is it a case that
you would put the money into the account but not actually put the money in the till
is that?
WQ I was putting the money in on a daily basis because that's the, because of the cash
flow.
RG Right ok.
WQ I was putting the sum through but that doesn’t explain it.
RG So well it would if you were putting a transaction into an Alliance and Leicester
account but then not physically putting money into the till.
WQ I was putting
RG Oh you were putting money into the till?
waQ Yes.
RG Right ok.
29.06 RD Is this your daily shop takings you were putting into your Alliance and Leicester
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Maiti a trading name of Royal Mail Group po. Registered number 4138203. Registered in England and Wales, Registered office: 148 Old Street, LONDON, ECIV 9HQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
business account?
29.10 WwQ Some of it.
RD Some of it.
RG So let me see if I can get this then, that, if you were putting the transaction through
your Alliance and Leicester account and then putting the money in the till there
wouldn't be a shortage.
waQ That's what I'm saying it doesn’t answer the question.
RD Your retail business when did it start was it last autumn what date what month just
to confirm?
RG Well we don’t know yet it’s around last autumn.
RD Right but last autumn you started having problems with your retail business what
was the problems with the retail business?
WQ Well first of all I put it down to suddenly the price of, the cost price of groceries was
shooting up and I wasn't catching it at the time to mark up but then I addressed
that one and sat down on a daily basis as invoices came in and marked everything
up through the computer system.
RD Ok
RG Were you then struggling to pay the invoices?
wa Yeah.
RG So how did you then pay those invoices?
wQ Quite often late (inaudible) the pressure on.
RG Right and where did you get the money from to pay those invoices?
WQ Well there was money coming in on a daily basis.
RD Ok and Post Office money was there ever used to pay invoices?
waQ Well it must have been or we wouldn't have this situation.
RD Do you ever remember taking money out of the Post Office to pay an invoice?
WwQ Not consciously no
RD Not consciously.
WQ No.
RG Sorry It's remiss of me in your letter you said that you'd a series of strokes.
WwaQ Yeah.
RG And your memory wasn't as good as it perhaps should have been around that time
is that around that same time?
31.18 WwaQ Yes.
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
‘Royal Malis a trading name of Royal Mail Group ple. Registered number 4138203, Registered in England and Wales, Registered office: 148 Old Street, LONDON, ECIV 9HQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
ROYAL MAIL - CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
31.19 RG I should have asked you this right from the very start are you ok to be interviewed
today, do you feel?
WaQ I have taken my pills.
RG Right ok. If you feel unwell at all at any time during the interview or you need to
take medication then you know don't let this interview hold you back.
WQ I'll just show you what I take in a day.
RG Right ok.
RD Right do you need water just now to take?
waQ No I’m not taking at the moment.
RG Ok is that the full day's worth?
waQ Yes.
RG Ok right. There's a selection there.
RD I can’t see but it sounds a lot.
wQ 13.
I RG And that’s obviously prescribed medication from your GP?
I WQ Yes.
I RD Do you require to take any medication just now?
I wa Vl do it after it’s alright.
RD Because if you need to take it just now we'd rather you take it, don’t put it off just
because of an interview.
RG Yeah yeah.
) WM Do you want a glass of water?
RG Yeah. For the purposes of the tape Mr. MacDonald's leaving the room to go and
get a glass of water.
RD It's just if you need to take them don't put them off just now for us just.
waQ I normally take ‘em about 9 o'clock.
RD Well we'll not ask you any questions until Willie comes back.
Inaudible
RD For the purpose of the tape William MacDonald's just re-entered the room
RG The time is 10.22, 11.22.
wQ That's one for tonight.
35.12 RG Ok that’s fine right. It's important that you understand that if you don’t feel well or
you feel the need to get extra medication or anything that you indicate to us as
early as possible and we'll stop the interview at that point and we'll go ‘cos you're
GSO15A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Malis a trading name of Royal Mail Group ple. Registered number 4138203. Registered in England and Wales, Registered office: 148 Old Street, LONDON, ECIV 9HQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
>)
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
more important than what we're dealing here with today alright.
35.34 WwQ Ok then.
RG Just so you understand that we're not here to oppress you in any way. So right
let's get back where were we. You were putting, what you said was that you were
putting transactions through your Alliance and Leicester business account but you
were putting the money into the till. What did you use your Alliance and Leicester
business account for?
WwQ To pay one main supplier.
RG Right and is that a company a specific company?
wQ Yeah.
RG Who are they?
wQ Lovetts Limited.
RG Are they a local?
WQ A local Cash & Carry.
RG A local Cash & Carry right so you had an account with them and anything that you
bought from the shop would more than likely be bought through them?
WwQ Mm
RG And they hit you with a monthly bill?
WwaQ Yeah.
RG Right ok.
WwQ No weekly.
RG Weekly bill so if you go to Cash & Carry get your goods they would send you a bill
you would pay it from this Alliance and Leicester business account?
WwaQ Yeah.
36.43 RG Right now if you were putting the money in the till that wouldn’t explain the
shortage so we then come back to the auditors found of £40,000 shortage and we
haven't really explained how that came about yet. I was understanding that what
you were saying about the Alliance and Leicester account if you had been putting it
in and then not putting money in the till then your Post Office money would be
I short but if you were actually putting it in the till Post Office till that is then there is
I no shortage but we have, we've still got this shortage unexplained. If we get back
I to your letter it says “I recognise last autumn that my shop business required a
I cash injection to get going and to that end I initiated the sale of some property.
Delays, there was delays in that coming through” and then you go onto the next
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Mails trading name of Royal Mail Group
ple, Registered number 4138203, Registered in England and Wales, Registered offie: 148 Old Street, LONDON, ECIV 9HQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
vX
9)
€
ROYAL MAIL —- CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
paragraph “I had no right to use Post Office money to prop up my business’.
Could you explain what you mean by using Post Office money to prop up your
business?
38.21 WQ Well I think it was just moving money, money around.
RG I understand what you mean by moving money around but we need to be more
specific than that. What money are we talking about are we talking about money
from the Post Office if it was money from the Post Office where did we move it to
do you know?
WQ Well it must have been to my account, shop account.
RG Ok so are we talking about the same Alliance and Leicester account business
I account?
waQ Well I've got 2 accounts with the Alliance and Leicester.
RG You've got 2 accounts?
WQ And I've got a Royal Bank as well.
RG So how would we go about moving it into the second account that we're talking
about now how would you physically do that? Is it also an Alliance and Leicester
account?
waQ The Royal Bank.
RG The Royal Bank but we don’t have online banking here for Royal Bank yeah
waQ Yes.
' RG Do we?
WQ Online.
RG Online banking here I mean.
RD In the Post Office
i RG In the Post Office?
WwQ No.
RG No so how would it go from the Post Office to the Royal Bank? Would you
physically take a lump sum of cash and deposit in the Royal Bank account?
waQ I must have done.
RG And if you did that how often would you do that and how much at a time?
wQ I couldn't be specific with that.
RD The Royal Bank of Scotland account is that a personal account?
WQ No it's a business account.
40.16 RD A business account as well?
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Melis a trading name of Royal Mail Group ple. Registered number 4138203. Registered in England and Wales. Registered office: 148 Old Steet, LONDON, ECV SHQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
Je
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
40.17 WwQ Mm.
RD What's the name of the business account for the Royal Bank of Scotland?
WQ Well it’s in the name of my wife and myself.
RD Right so it's just under your names?
WwQ W J&A Quarm.
RD WwW?
WwQ J&A. Quarm.
) RD And what do you pay out of that business account?
WQ All the sort of direct debits and allsorts of charges and.
RD What kind of direct debits sorry?
wa Pardon?
Rd What kind of direct debits?
WQ Suppliers and eh.
RG Do you pay heating. lighting?
waQ Yeah.
RG Telephone.
RD Domestic?
wa Yeah.
RG Council charge?. All those sort of things?
WQ All those sort of things.
RG And you said that you must have taken the money to the Royal Bank, you can’t be
’ more specific than that?
wQ No.
RG Would anybody else have taken it other than yourself and deposited it into the
Royal Bank?
WwQ No.
RG No so if anybody had deposited into the Royal Bank it would have been yourself?
waQ Yeah.
RG Ok you wouldn't have asked, sorry what's her name again?
wQ Sheila.
RG Sheila, you wouldn’t have asked Sheila to go to the bank and deposit some money
for you?
wQ No.
41.48 RG What about your wife would you ever ask your wife to go and deposit money into
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
royal Mil isa trading nae of Royal Mail Group ple. Registered number 4138203, Reseed in England and Wales, Registered office: 148 Ol Street, LONDON, ECV HQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
rey
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
the bank and we're talking about the money that belongs to the Post Office here?
42.02 WQ Well she would bank for me but she would, she would really accept what I gave to
her.
RG Right so if you gave her £3,000, I'm just picking a figure here, £3,000 she would
just accept that that's profits of the business?
waQ mm.
RG And she would go and bank it?
wQ No profits but takings.
' RG Takings yeah well yeah yeah sorry absolutely. Right sorry Robert.
RD Do you remember well have you ever physically taken money out of the Post
Office till for taking to the Royal Bank of Scotland?
WQ We don’t have such a thing as a till.
RD Well ok Post Office money I mean (inaudible) sits in the boxes.
Wa I should explain at the end of the day Post Office money was checked here and
then my tills come up here and were checked here so.
RG Right right.
wQ My till drawers were (inaudible)
RG Ok.
RD Did you know how much it actually took on a weekly basis to run your shop or your
business, how much money you should be taking in to keep it solvent?
! Wa Very roughly yes.
RD How much was that about?
wQ Couldn't give you a figure.
RD Just approximate figure?
I WwaQ Couldn't give you an exact figure.
RD I'm not looking for exact figure just an approximate figure in the region of what?
WwQ Well 10,000.
1 RD 10,000 a week?
wa Yeah.
RD Right and at the end of the week if the takings were short were you using Post
Office money to top that up?
waQ No it wasn't done like that.
RD It wasn’t done like that?
44.13 wQ No.
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Mail is a trading name of Royal Mail Group pl. Registered number 4138203, Registered in England and Wales. Registered office: 148 Old Stret, LONDON, ECIV 9HQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
a
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
44.14 RD No. You see what we're just trying to figure out or get to the bottom of what
actually was the Post Office money used for. We know it's to keep the business
afloat but we're trying to find out how you did that, we're not trying to trip you up
we're just trying to get to find out the facts of how you physically used the Post
Office money and did you put it into your bank (beep beep) sorry did you put it into
your bank account or did you actually physically use that money to pay suppliers in
cash?
WQ No there was never any paying of cash.
' RD What about your Cash & Carry is it Roberts Limited?
wQ Lovetts.
RD Lovetts, Lovetts Limited, how did you pay them?
WQ By cheque.
RD By cheque right so you had to make sure there was enough in the account to pay
them by cheque. Did you put Post Office money into the account to ensure that
cheque wouldn't bounce to cover the value of the cheque?
WQ No what I tried to do is put £700 of cash per day into the Alliance and Leicester
RD Right and were your shop takings falling below that level for you?
waQ Not normally no.
RD Not normally. Ok so if you were getting £700 per day takings to pay Lovetts how
have we come in to get into this situation?
RG Did you move the money from, once the money was in the Alliance and Leicester
) account did you then move it into the Royal Bank account from there?
WwQ No.
RD Raymond can we change the tapes over just now then we'll continue that
question?
RG Ok
RD Yeah ‘cos we've only got a minute left.
RG Ok. The tapes are about to finish I need to continue the interview but prior to doing
that could I ask you to read out the master tape seal for me the number at the top?
wQ 071081.
RG And if you could just sign.
RD Above your name.
RG Above your name.
46.33 RD Just in here.
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Malis a trading name of Royal Mil Group ple. Registered number 4138203. Registered in England and Wales, Registered office: 148 Old Street, LONDON, ECIV 9HQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
om)
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
46.42 RG And William If you could sign below your name yeah.
RD Yes just in there.
RD Thank you. What's the time Raymond?
RG The time is 11.34.
47.06 RD Switch off tapes.
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Malis a trading name of Royal Mail Group ple, Registered number 4138203, Registered in England and Wales, Registered office: 148 Old Street, LONDON, ECIV SHQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
By
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
4.11 WQ Oh shop money.
RG So it was always shop money?
wQ Yeah.
RG So you were putting £700 into the Alliance and Leicester business account.
When I asked you earlier did you put Post Office, how did you take, how did you
get the money. Let's go back 2 stages, the auditors discovered that there was
£40,000 missing now for it to be missing it either never existed in the first place
or you have physically removed it from the office and used it for other purposes.
wa Yeah.
RG And if that’s what you’ve done then we need to be more specific in your answers
of where and how that money left the Post Office area. If it was moved into an
account then we need to know the name of that account, if it was moved to pay
I bills then we need to know what bills were paid. If it was moved into or physically
taken from the Post Office and deposited in another bank somewhere we need
to know that element of it because to just say that you moved the money around
is not really sufficient an answer do you understand where I’m coming from?
I wQ Mm.
I RG ‘Cos we need to know. Ifit's a case that you’re not wanting to say I took the
I money and I took it there it’s too late for that do you understand?
I waQ Yeah.
I RG Because we need to know we need to get to the bottom of it yeah.
I ) WwQ Well I obviously used Post Office money.
I RG Yeah in your letter you say that you had no right to use Post Office money to
prop up my business so in real terms you're saying that you have done. What
we want to know is what it was you did with it to prop up your business, how did
you go about it and what was the nature of how you did it?
WQ Well I either didn’t put, didn’t put £700 always into the.
I RG Right so perhaps if it was £500 came form the shop you would up that to 7?
wQ Well as far as the Alliance and Leicester account was concerned I was required
I to pay about £4,200 a week.
I RG Right ok and you made sure that that happened?
I wQ Yeah.
I RG By inflating the amount of cash that you were putting in?
3.53 WwQ It must have been.
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Mailis a trading name of Royal Mail Group ple. Registered number 4138203, Repstred in England and Wales, Registered office: 148 Old Street, LONDON, ECIV SHQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
“Gt
gt
ROYAL MAIL - CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
3.54 RG Yeah ok so in effect that money didn’t exist then but by you depositing it into your
Alliance and Leicester account you made it exist does that explain?
WwQ Aye more or less.
RG And from that Alliance and Leicester account you paid your Lovett Wholesalers
yes?
waQ Yeah.
RG Ok. The Royal bank account then that we were talking about did you ever do the
same with that then, did you, we don't have the online banking for Royal Bank at
the Post Office so how would you put money into that account then, would you
physically take the money from the Post Office and go to the bank and bank it?
WwQ Well no the money going to the Royal Bank would be shop takings.
RG The shop takings?
wQ Yeah.
RG If we've got £10,000 a week shop takings right and you were struggling to put
4,200 into the Alliance and Leicester how does that add up. If you didn’t have
4,200 to put into the Alliance and Leicester account are you with me?
wQ Mm.
RG If you didn’t have that you were saying that you were?
WQ The plan was to put £700 a day.
RG Right ok and over the 6 days.
WQ Yeah.
RG That would be your 4,200?
wa Yeah.
RG Right ok I get that element of it but if you weren't achieving that how would you
then get money, if there wasn’t enough to do that where did you ever get the
money from to put into the Royal Bank, where did that money come from
because if you didn’t have enough takings to put into the Alliance and Leicester
to cover the 4,200 then how would you, how were you able to have surplus cash
that you could go along to the Royal Bank?
WQ Well the Royal Bank money was going in various ways, a lot of people pay by
credit card and that was going directly into the bank.
RG Right now I’m getting there I'm understanding where you're coming from ok.
WwQ Cheques would be sent.
6.10 RG Right so cheques would go to the Royal Bank?
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Mails a trading name of Royal Mail Group ple, Registered number 4138203, Registered in England and Wales. Registered office: 148 Old Street, LONDON, ECIV 9HQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
4}
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
6.12 wQ Yeah.
RG Cheques for your retail business?
wa Yes.
RG Yes so they would go into the Royal Bank account?
waQ Yes.
RG Ok.
RD So have the cheques and credit card receipts been going to the Royal Bank
yeah?
waQ Mm.
RD Did you ever put cash into the Royal Bank?
WwQ Oh yes.
RD Cash as well where would the cash come from?
wa The shop.
RD The shop it was always shop cash not Post Office money? Did you ever put
Post Office?
WQ Well yes.
RD We're just trying to get an explanation why you were £40,000 short?
WQ Yes it was (inaudible) it was between the Alliance and Leicester and there could
have been cash.
RD Right from the Post Office going into the Royal Bank to cover the domestic bills
as well?
waQ Mm.
RD We're not trying to put words into your mouth we're just trying to find out because
if that’s not what's happened, that’s not happened because it’s not much point
you telling us that just for the sake of making us go away we do need to know
what the actual truth is here and I know it sounds we're putting a lot of questions
to you but it's trying to jog your memory into what has actually happened here. It
is important that we get to know before we leave here we know exactly what has
happened because otherwise we've got to come away back up again and speak
to you again and it’s probably better for yourself if you can get this over and done
with today. So we've got, if we can just maybe go through what is your average
daily takings in the shop?
WQ It's, give a bit of seasonal, somewhere about 1,500.
8.11 RD 1,500 is that a mixture of cash cheques and credit card payments?
GSO015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Mails a trading name of Royal Mail Group
ple, Registered number 4138203. Registered in England and Wales. Registered ofice; 148 Old Strect, LONDON, ECIV 9HQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
sud
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
8.16 wQ Yes.
RD So it's a mixture of it?
Wa Mm.
RG Now you say it’s seasonal when's the season really?
WQ High season would be May to, May to August.
RD So when you hit the low season round about September last year is that when
you started having problems?
WwQ Yeah.
RD Is that the first season you've ever had problems?
WwQ No we've always had problems.
RD Always had problems and in seasons before?
wQ But it’s got worse.
RD So it’s got worse over the years?
I wa Yeah.
RD And last year was particularly bad?
wQ Mm.
RD So your £1,500 over the high season what does that drop to in the low season?
WQ It can be as low as 12.
RD 1,200?
waQ Well I've seen it lower but.
RD Yeah. Ok so you're taking in 1,500 that’s over 6 days is that right? That's over 6
days you don’t work a Sunday is that correct?
wQ No.
RG Right so that’s about £9,000 you're taking in a week.
I wa Well as I say it varies.
I RD Aye
WwQ You're trying to put me down to days.
RG No we're trying just to average figures obviously it can be more it can be less.
WaQ Yeah but we would get a mid supplies mid week like meat vegetables things like
that so there's bigger turnover Wednesdays Thursdays than there is Monday?
RD Yeah well I’m just trying to do weekly figures and then that. So assuming they
I come in with the meat etc do you have to pay them there and then?
I WwQ No no pay them after.
10.11 RD No does that come from Lovett the meat?
I GSO015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Mails a trading name of Royal Mal Group ple. Registered number 4138203, Registered in England and Wales. Registered office: 148 Old Street, LONDON, ECIV 9HQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
10.13 waQ No.
RD No it comes from another supplier?
WQ Mm.
RD Right ok. So you've got Lovetts you've got to give is that £700 a day
approximately?
waQ Mm
RD Whose the other supplier for the meat?
WQ Sorry.
RD The other supplier, who supplies your meat?
waQ Munro's.
RD Munro’s so Lovetts is £4,200 a week how much do you have to pay Munro's a
week?
wa About £300.00.
RD £300.00
WQ That's paid monthly.
RD Is that paid monthly £1,200 monthly?
WwQ Mm.
RD What other supplies have you got you pay weekly?
WQ Weekly papers.
RD Who delivers your papers or who do you pay for them?
WaQ John Menzies.
RD John Menzies how much are they a week?
wQ Between 5 and £600.
RD Ok and anybody else?
WQ There's Press & Journal but they're about £50.00 a week.
RD Anyone else you can think of?
RG Lemonade milk.
RD Where do you get your milk from?
WQ Lovetts.
RD Lovetts is that all your juices and other suppliers do you get that from there?
WwQ No there’s another supplier Grill Burger.
RD Grill Burger.
WQ They're about 6, £700 a week.
12.01 RD What do they supply?
GS015A (Scotiand)
Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Malis a trading name of Royal Mail Group ple. Registered number 4138203. Registered in England and Wales, Registered office: 148 Old Stet, LONDON, ECIV 9HQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
one
?
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
12.03 wa Chilled food, lemonade, crisps some food.
RD So they're about £600 a week as well?
WQ Mm.
RD What about staff wages how much do you pay Sheila?
RG It's more, to do with the Post Office or are you talking shop here?
RG Shop do you pay her for the shop and the Post Office?
WwQ Sheila was on the, as I said she was on part time half time of whatever I actually
changed her over in the week all this happened she was going to go full time.
RG Was she?
waQ Mm.
RD What was she before?
wa What was she?
RD Yeah was she part time before hand?
wa Yes.
RD How much do you pay her a week?
wa Her take home was around about ;GRO;
RD GRO I Any other outgoings what about your direct debits were they monthly or
weekly?
WQ They were various ones.
RD For the shop how much, what's the council tax for the shop?
waQ 12, 1,300, 12, 1,300.
RD Is that for the month?
WwQ No year.
RD Year I was going to say roughly. So did you pay that?
WQ Monthly.
RD Monthly so it’s about £100 a week eh £100 a month?
wQ Mm.
RG What about your electricity for the shop?
WwQ That was very high it was about 1,500 a month.
RD 1,500 a month. What about the gas any gas?
WwQ No.
RD No, telephone?
WwQ Well we have 3 lines the Post Office one’s negligible ‘cos it was just the.
14.14 RD Yeah.
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Mai is a trading name of Royal Mail Group ple. Registered number 4138203, Registered in England and Wales, Registered office: 148 Old Street, LONDON, ECIY HQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
¥l
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
14.15 waQ But the other 2 were about £50 a month.
RD 50 a month.
WwQ It’s the ATM line and the (inaudible)
RD Do you pay for the ATM line?
wa Pardon?
RD Do you pay the ATM line?
wQ Yeah.
RD Any other bills, any other bills you actually pay.
RG Do you own the property?
WwQ No.
RG Right so you got rent?
WQ Mm, 650, 625 sorry.
Rd 625 who actually owns the property?
wQ The Estate, North Uist Estate
RG North Uist Estate. Any other bills that you can think of?
WQ Well the other wages.
RD Other wages who else wages?
wQ That would be another £400 a week that's including National Insurance.
RD What about yourself do you get a wage a week?
WwaQ No I haven't taken a wage out of the business I've been paying my pension in it
RD That's about it. So you've got over £8,000 a week really or a month sorry I take
that back they're weekly aren't they. So see that in wages is that excluding
Sheila or including Sheila?
WQ Excluding.
RG Excluding so you've about [GRO} weekly, B month in wages?
wa Yes.
RD Yeah. I'm just trying to add this up here. So there’s about £24,000 £25,000 a
month would that be fair to say in outgoings?
WwaQ I couldn't agree without sitting down and looking at it all.
RD Yeah looking at it all, well I was thinking Lovetts is 4,200 a week is that right so
they're about 16,800 every 4 weeks, Munro is 1,200 a month, your Menzies bill’s
between 5 and 600 so if we say 2,000 a month, P & J’s about £200 a month, Grill
Burger actually.
17.48 RG That's weekly.
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Malis a trading name of Royal Mail Group ple. Registered mumier 4138203, Registered in England and Wales, Registered office: 148 Old Stee, LONDON, ECIV HQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
a
y
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
17.50 RD Ah ha 600 I missed them out altogether 2,400.
WwQ And there's a fruit and veg company as well.
RD Fruit and veg who are they?
wa Williamson.
RD Williamson what are they a week?
WQ About 400.
RD 400. Right so Grill Burgers about 2,400 a month your wages are about 2,000 a
month, Williams's 1,600 a month, your council tax £100 monthly, electricity’s
} 4,500 monthly
wa Mm.
I RD And BT’s £50 and rent’s 625 is that a week or a month?
wa BT?
I RD No the rent is that 625 a month?
I wa Yeah.
RD A month so about £28,500 roughly and what, how much do you take in each?
RG What do you reckon about 10,000 a week.
RD 410,000 so 40,000 so that gives you about £12,500 to play with. Do you have any
bank loans or anything?
WQ Oh yes.
I RD Yeah. Who's that with?
WwQ Royal Bank and Bank of Scotland.
RD What's the Royal Bank loan?
wQ That's an overdraft.
RD An overdraft. What's the Bank of Scotland? The Bank of Scotland is that a
loan?
I WQ Yes I think about £1,000 a month repayment.
I RD What was the loan for?
I WQ Just paying off other bills.
RD Right how much did you take out?
WQ I'd have to look it up.
RD Do you know when you took it out, how long ago was it you took it out?
WwaQ 4 or 5 years ago.
RD 4 or 5 years how long was it over?
20.33 WQ It’s one of these silly what you call it preference account.
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Mail is a trading name of Royal Mail Group,
ple, Registered number 4138203. Registered in England and Wales. Registered office: 148 Old Street, LONDON, EC1V SHQ
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
POL00166599
POL00166599
bal
%
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
20.38 RD Preference account?
waQ Yeah they allow you so much up to a certain level.
RD Right so you're just constantly paying £1,000 a month with that?
wa Yeah.
RD Right.
wa In fact I think it's a bit more.
RD What about a mortgage do you have a mortgage on your house?
wa Yeah.
RD How much is that?
wa That's 1,200 a month.
RD What's the property valued at?
wa What the house?
RD Yeah.
wQ Round about £200,000.00
RD And how long’s your mortgage over?
WQ It’s got about another 3 years to go.
RD 3 years to go. Who's that with?
wQ Royal Bank.
RD What other properties do you have?
wQ Pardon?
RD What other properties do you have?
WwQ Just land.
RD Land where's that?
WQ Beside the house.
RD Sorry?
WQ By the, side the house.
RD Oh beside the house. Is that, how much is that worth?
WwQ Well there’s 2 plots on the market at the moment at 50,000, 55,000 each.
RD So they're on the market anyway?
WwQ Yeah.
RD Do you have any other properties?
WwaQ Yeah there's about another 80,000.
RD What's that?
22.18 WwQ 2 building areas and an agricultural crop.
GSO16A (Scotland)
Royal Mails a trading name of Royal Mail Group
Version 5.0 05/07
ple. Registered number 4138203. Registered in England and Wales, Registered office: 148 Old Steet, LONDON, ECIY SHQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
ROYAL MAIL - CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
22.6 RG 2 building areas, what do you mean is that 2 houses?
wa No it's.
RD Oh it can be built on?
wQ Yeah.
RD 2 building areas and agricultural.
RG How much equity do you have in your house, do you know the difference of the
value of the house with what you're still due to the bank?
WQ Due about 30,000.
RG So you've got an outstanding mortgage of 30 the house is worth 200,000 so you've
got £170,000 equity?
WQ Yeah yeah roughly yeah and there's the 2 plots.
RG Ah what on top of that?
waQ Yeah.
RD Yeah ok. Do you have any cars at all?
WwQ Yeah.
RD Yeah how many cars do you have?
WwQ 2.
RD 2 what kind of cars are they, I know it sounds a bit, because it's a financial
investigation.
wQ A Toyota Avensis.
RD What about the other one?
WwQ Honda what is it they call it?
RG Is it a Jeep type?
waQ Yeah
RG CRV?
WwQ Yes.
RD CRV are they, are you paying them up or are they bought?
WwQ The Toyota's paid up.
RD Yeah how much you got on the Honda?
WaQ £380 a month.
RD Have you got much longer to pay for that?
WwQ Ayear.
RD Is that a 5 year deal?
24.23 wQ 4 year.
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Maiti a trading name of Royal Mail Group ple. Registered number 4138203. Registered in England and Wales, Registered office: 148 Old Street, LONDON, ECL SHQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
24.23 RD 4 years.
WaQ No it's a3 year sorry. They were both bought 2™ hand.
RD Sorry?
WwQ They were both bought second hand.
RD Second hand yeah ok.
RD Is that you done with that one?
RD So there’s only about another 1200 £1500 on there at the month.
RG What happened to that thing you did for me?
RD (inaudible)
RG Having had a look at your branch trading statements for the Post Office over the
period that we've been able to ascertain where, one missing which is period 11
which is February this year yeah. Having had a look at your accounts this is a
basic breakdown and I'll just explain the schedule to you. This is the period, yeah
period 1 and it said that you had that amount of cash on hand this is from your
branch trading statements yeah and that was the balance figure yeah and then it
said there that it was 36p short right. We go onto the next one it's £729 short, the
next one it’s £53.45 short, £1.63, £16.57, £174.00, £33.94, £1314.00 short, £1706
short, £1688 short, then we go onto £3,366.00 short, £9,000 short and then
£4,768.99p short. Now when I look at the branch trading statements for each of
those and if I can just pick the latest one which is the bottom one on the list yeah
which is for period 2 dated 30" April to the 29" May 08 is that your signature that’s
on there?
wQ Yeah.
RG Yeah and do you accept that this branch trading statement would have been
produced by you and any figures that are on this would have been input to the
Horizon system by you?
wQ Yes.
RG Ok I'm just going to show you the schedule compares with what I said. It's
35992.34 which is what I've written down there right and it says there's a shortage
of £4,760, £4,768.99p there yeah.
WwQ Mm.
RG And it then says that you resolved that.
WaQ Mm.
28.15 RG By the same amount yes.
GS016A (Scotland)
Version 5.0 05/07
oyel Mails trading name of Royal Mail Group ple. Registered number 4138203, Reistered in England and Wales, Registered ofc: 148 04 Street, LONDON, BCLY HQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
28.16 WQ Mm.
RG So what this means to me is that you were short when you declared this balance,
it's not a false balance you're declaring a false figure yeah?
wQ Yeah.
RG You're declaring what was actually on hand but then what you're saying to the
Horizon system that you're making that good is that correct?
waQ Yeah.
RG Did you in fact put that money in to make the shortage good?
wa No there’s a bank loan to do that.
RG There was, is that what this bank loan that you were waiting on for?
I WwQ Yes.
RG Right, right. Now if you're saying that you made that good, the following day your
balance would be back to zero?
wa Yeah.
RG Yeah so each one of these figures on my schedule and if we start from where the
figures increase slightly in number, are we saying that that was short and you were
waiting for the bank loan from that period of time ‘cos that kind of ties in with what
you were saying earlier on about autumn?
WQ Yes.
RG Yeah?
WwQ Yeah.
RG So that £1314.85p for period 8 wasn't physically put back into the Post Office is
that correct?
WwQ I can't remember whether particularly that one was or not.
RG Right. If I go onto the next one then £1,700?
WQ But that’s.
RG That's how you would account for it?
waQ Yes.
I RG So you were actually declaring the shortages but then saying I've made this good?
WwQ Mm.
RG Whereas in fact you might not have?
WQ No.
RG Or you more than likely have not?
29.59 wa That's right.
GSO015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Mail is tradiog name of Royal Mail Group pe. Repstered number 4138203, Registered in England and Wales. Registered office: 148 Oli Street, LONDON, FCI 9HQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
30.00 RG Is that correct?
wQ Yeah.
RG So each one of these is not a roll over figure it’s a fresh figure is that correct?
Because if you say that you've made it good in fact you haven't made it good it
would still be short.
WQ Yes.
RG Or is that a roll over figure? I’m just trying to get your understanding and my
understanding. My understanding is it would be a roll over figure and the reason
for that is that although you have said you've made it good, when you actually
come to balance you won't, you won't have you'll still be short ‘cos unless you re-
declared your cash the next day, if you make it good you have to re-declare your
cash the next day with the amended figure so the next week you should be
showing a surplus and I don’t see that on your branch trading statements so the
assumption I'm making then that this is a rolling figure do you understand what I’m
on?
WwQ Yeah.
RG Yeah.
wa Yeah.
RG Ok so by, what you've done is you've declared your cash on hand figure. Now if
we stick with this, the latest one I’ve got which is for period 2 it says here that you
have cash on hand £35,992.34p. Would you physically have had that amount of
cash on hand?
WQ No.
RG No is it because you've used some of the money from the Post Office to support
your business?
WwaQ No when you point out that that's exactly what it was it's the accumulation of these.
RG Ok right but what, the figure that's there did you physically have that cash here in
the office?
WwQ No.
RG When you entered the numbers into the Horizon system? No?
wQ No.
RG The answer to that you’re saying quite definitely no because you're looking at it
with a puzzled look?
32.15 wa Yeah.
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Mail is a trading name of Royal Mail Group pl. Registered number 4138203. Registered in England and Wales. Registered office: 148 Old Street, LONDON, ECIV 9HQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
32.16 RG Ok and again I'm not here to trip you up right ok and I’m just, I just need to know
that was that money there?
WwaQ No it was the expected money from the.
RG Ok. N
wa From.
RG Right so all of that £39,000 wasn’t there. How do you know how much you were
short by, how do you know how much extra you had to inflate that to get to these
figures and I've got a further question on that same thing, if you knew that all that
money wasn’t there why didn’t you just make this figure zero? ‘Cos if you had
inflated that figure by that amount yeah
waQ Mm.
RG Then this figure here wouldn't show at all it would be zero if you had put that
amount and added it onto there ‘cos if you've already added something on here to
get to this state in the balance, do you understand what I mean?
wQ I don't really
RG Right ok if you've got, if I can be quite graphic with it?
WwQ No that is, would be what the expected figure which would be in the?
RG In the Horizon?
wa In the trial balance.
RG Right ok.
WwQ Am I right?
RG No well no that's what you've told the system you've got. You've input the amount
of value say that’s the contents of your Post Office and I'm showing my wallet, if
you've got that and that's what you're putting into the system right?
wQ Yeah.
RG That's what that figure is there. If you've said that I've got £1 ,000 in here and there
is only 500 then it's £1,000 that shows do you, are you with me?
waQ Mm.
RG Even although there's only 500 in here right?
WwQ Mm. ;
RG I don't think you're picking me up, you're nodding but I'm looking at your face and
I'm puzzling you. What I’m trying to explain to you is that that figure there is,
comes from what you put into the system, you tell the system what you've got.
34.44 WQ You don't the system tells you what it thinks you've got.
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Mai is a trading name of Royal Mail Group ple, Registered number 4138203. Registered in England and Wales, Registered office: 148 Old Street, LONDON, ECIV 9HQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
34.47 RG Yeah but then if you then put in another figure which is different from that this is
where this figure comes in, it says you're short by that amount?
waQ Yes.
RG Yeah so what I’m trying to get is how do you know that that was what you had on
that day?
WwQ ‘Cos the system tells you that.
RG Right ok. Have you got they figures, no. That particular report was done on the 29"
May. This here is a schedule of what you actually declared on the 29" May which
was Thursday right sorry you did your balance on a Wednesday would that be
correct?
WwQ Mm.
RG Right so you did the balance on the Wednesday, you told the system that that's
what you had 34,000 the prediction was 28,000 so it's therefore telling you that
you've got that short yeah?
wa Yeah.
RG Now that’s the figure that’s shown here but in your terms what you've got is, what
you've declared doesn’t match up with what you had on hand do you understand
when you, you go into Horizon it says how many £20 notes have you got?
wa Yes yes.
RG And you say right I've got 100 right so automatically Horizon says 100 x 20 has got
£2,000 here right, how many tenners have you got, when you tell the system what
you've got when you're doing your cash declaration you tell the system what you've
got right. What you'll see there on these printouts is that on a Friday it says you've
got 5,000 on a Saturday you've 6,000. 7,000 now you get 30,000 in, £32,000 in
and it automatically goes up to 39,000 right. The next day that’s what you declared
you had but then the next day it goes down to £5,500. Do you see where I’m at
these figures are telling me what, how much money's been sent to you and how
much money you've sent away from here.
waQ Be about 32,000.
RG Well according to that you got a remittance in.
wQ For 32,000?
RG That's what it says there
WwQ Never.
37.33 RG Never?
GSO015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Malis a trading name of Royal Mal Group ple. Registered number 4138203. Registered in England and Wales, Registered office: 148 Old Street, LONDON, ECIY 9HQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
Lo
ye
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
37.34 wQ Never.
RG That's what the system’s telling me.
wQ Never.
RG (inaudible)
WQ The biggest remittance we ever had in was 7, 7.
RG 7,000?
waQ Aye.
RG Well these are system derived figures. If you don’t do a cash declaration and the
system automatically assumes things right so if you're doing your cash declaration
on a daily basis right you've done it there you've done it there you've done it there
and done it there and done it there that’s gone up from 1,600 because you've had
aremittance in of 9.
Wa Never had a remittance in of 9.
RG Well that’s what the system's telling me there.
wa No never. When was that?
RG That was in April.
wa No never. What date in April?
RG It says the 7”.
WQ Pardon?
RG 7”
wQ Would that be when it was sent out?
RG It's hard to tell from this schedule. That's usually the figure it gives.
WwQ 2,500 and 1,500
RG £4,000 so it came in on the 9" then?
wQ Yeah.
RG So that's the £4,000 on the 9”.
WaQ Ah ha.
39.57 RG 2,400 so this is your deliveries, this is, I'm looking at the wrong column. It's my
fault. My fault entirely I do apologise I'm looking at the wrong column I was looking
at this figure, this figure here this is the one that you've been getting delivered
75544 yeah that was me, it can happen, itcan happen. That was my, I beg your
pardon but thanks for correcting me. Right so in reality what we've got is we've
got, we've got your branch trading statements which are showing that you on this
period 2 that you'd £35,982.34. I'm trying to establish whether you physically had
GSO15A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royel Malis trading name of Royal Mail Group pe. Registered murber 4138203, Regstered in England and Wales, Repistered ofc: 148 OW Stree, LONDON, ECLY 2H0
POL00166599
POL00166599
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
that cash on hand here or whether you'd.
40.56 waQ No I've told you
RG Yeah right.
wa But it was expectation of getting this.
RG Right so this figure is an inflated figure?
waQ Yeah.
RG Inflated by yourself?
wQ Yes.
RG So that it shows less of a shortage is that correct?
Wa Yes.
RG Because you were expecting this bank loan at any time. If that bank loan had
kicked in you would have physically had that money here?
waQ Yes.
RG Yeah.
WwQ Yes.
RG Right ok so this in fact is a false document yeah? It’s in real terms it's not factually
correct.
WwQ That's right.
RG Because it does say here ‘I certify that the content of this balancing and trading
statement is an accurate reflection of the cash and stock on hand at this branch’.
wa I've said from the beginning and I’ve said it in that letter that it was expectational in
that loan.
RG But what I’m just trying to be clear is that this is a false accounting document
simply because you're certifying that it's an accurate reflection of the cash and
what you've just told me just now isn't fact not an accurate declaration?
WQ Well! think we knew that from the start.
RG 1 know but I just have to be specific with it ‘cos this is just one document. How
many of these others are also false accounting documents if we go back to
autumn are you keeping them in order?
RD Yeah.
RG I mean that’s for period 2 if I show you period 1 and I ask you the same questions,
is that a true reflection of what the true balance figure was in your office on that
day and your answer would be what for period 1.
42.40 RD What was the figure cash in hand?
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Malis a trading name of Royal Mail Group ple. Registered number 4138203, Registered in England and Wales, Registered office: 48 Old Street, LONDON, ECIV HQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
ROYAL MAIL —- CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
42.42 RG The cash in hand figure is 17,239?
wa It would.
RG It would be?
WQ That would be a wrong figure.
RG Awrong figure?
wa Yeah.
RG Ok.
RD Can I ask that figure on period 1 what was the balance in the figure there
Raymond?
RG Period 1 17,000.
RD Yeah
RG You've got it
RD Right Period 1 you had 17 you've declared your cash at 17,239.78 and that is up
until the 30" April 2008 and for period 2 the cash in hand declared is 35,992.34 up
to the 29" of the 5" 2008 that's a difference of £18,000.
WQ I know, I know this is the bit I couldn’t understand it
RD Yeah may in that period 2 there's an £18,000 difference physically on there the
sheets.
RG It said £21,000 in the rems. Where is the period
WaQ Cash
RG Yeah, in that month, in that period. This column here. The deliveries
RD These been booked in?
RG They must have been. They have to be book in if it's £40,000 short.
RD ‘Cos they get scanned in don’t they. Do you scan your remittances in?
WwQ No.
RG It would only show on the system if it's been scanned.
(beep beep)
RG So that’s why the figure has gone up by that amount of money. The amount of
cash on hand figure.
WQ I know that particular £7,000 somebody phoned me up from the.
RG The cash handling, the cash management yeah.
wQ And said you should send why are you not sending your money in.
45.15 RG That's where that column is. You should have been sending us 7,000 instead of
us sending you 7?
GS015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Mail isa trading name of Royal Mail Group ple, Registered number 4138203. Registered in England and Wales, Registered office: 148 Old Street, LONDON, ECIV 9HQ
POL00166599
POL00166599
ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
45.20 WQ Yeah and I said well you just sent me £5,000. “Well will you please send money
next week” “yes” the next thing another £7,000 arrived.
RG It's automatic it's a Horizon produced figure. People don’t make decisions I'm
going to send you 5, it's an automatic cash management system.
WwQ But why if they were wanting £7,000 did they send me £7,000?
I RG Is the system I don’t know I can’t explain. So what we've got and the tapes have
I just beeped here and I’m conscious that we're dragging on a wee bit here.
RD (inaudible)
RG What I need to do is what you've told me I’m going to provide clarity as I explained
to you before the interview started we may need to go to your house or if you can
produce for me the bank account records for the bank accounts that you’ve
mentioned already the Alliance and Leicester business account, the Bank of
Scotland loan account the Royal Bank of Scotland loan account I need to see
these to say, to show me and give me some sort of proof of what you're telling me
is in fact true that you applied for a loan from the bank last autumn. If you've got
any correspondence relating to that, the amount of loan that you have and what
you're
47.06 Tape ends abruptly.
GSO015A (Scotland) Version 5.0 05/07
Royal Mali a trading namve of Royal Mail Group ple, Registered number 4138203, Registered in England and Wales, Registered office: 148 Old Street, LONDON, EC1Y 9HQ