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From: Mike Granville[/O=MMS/OU=EXCHANGE ADMINISTRATIVE GROUP
(FYDIBOHF23SPDLT)/CN=RECIPIENTS/CN=MIKE.GRANVILLEF9CC547D-14F 1-4BFB-AE89-
5C28E92235C3]
Sent: Tue 08/02/2011 12:23:24 PM (UTC)
To:
Subject: Inside Out programme on BBC South last night
For your information, further to my recent e-mails.
The BBC ran the piece relating to Horizon on the Regional Inside Out programme last night. It ended up as a 10
minute element of the 30 minute programme — and you can see it on the i player (link below)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/bOO0ycv9s/Inside_ Out South 07 02 2011/
I've also included below the transcript of the relevant element of the programme. It used part of our statement (but not
all of it).
David Simpson informs me that there has been no further press pick up of the programme.
In terms of next steps on this issue (for example the threatened civil legal challenge by Shoosmiths that was
mentioned in the programme), I'll liaise with Kevin Gilliland, Susan Crichton and Mike Young.
Thanks
Mike
Mike Granville
Head of Regulation Strategy
Post Office Ltd
_='I 1st Floor, Banner Street Wing, 148 Old Street, LONDON EC1V 9H1Q
FALSE ACCOUNTING
Programme : INSIDE OUT SOUTH
Station : BBC 1 SOUTH (OXFORD
Date : 07/02/11
Time : 19:28
Duration : 09 MINUTES 53 SECONDS
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JOHN CUTHILL: Presenter
First, as lawyers prepare for a civil action against the Post Office on behalf of
village sub-postmasters, we've been talking to people across the South accused of
cooking the books - but they swear they’ve done nothing wrong. So, what's up behind the
counters of our post offices? Nick Wallace reports.
NICK WALLACE: Reporter
This Surrey post office has a new sub-postmaster. The last one, Sima Misra, is behind
bars, convicted of false accounting and stealing £74,000. Sima and her husband Davinda
maintain she didn’t steal the money, but that inexplicable errors in her post office
accounts made it look as if she had.
DAVINDA MISRA: Husband of Sub-Postmistress
I feel ashamed of this country, they put innocent into prison. I am a good citizen, my
wife only good citizen, we are good people, she’s everything for me. To put her into
prison.. you giving whole family into prison. [sic]
NICK WALLACE:
What have you told your son about where your wife is?
DAVINDA
She’s in
NICK WALLACE:
Sima’s case is far from isolated. We’ve come across dozens of examples similar to this:
postmasters who feel they’ve been victims of a serious injustice. They say they were
just trying to serve their community, but when things started going inexplicably wrong,
the Post Office have pointed the finger of blame firmly at them.
There are plenty of services you can get from a post office nowadays, it’s not just
about buying stamps - you can get your tax disc, you can pay your bills online, get your
lottery ticket. But all the transactions that take place behind this glass over here
are automatically recorded at a centrally located database, and at the end of the day
what the centrally located database says you have must match what's in the tills behind
the glass.
Sub-postmasters, under their contracts, are personally liable for shortfalls. Jo
Hamilton knows this only too well. She used to run this post office in Hampshire; now
the Post Office counter has been removed and she’s only left with the village shop.
Her troubles began when her post office computer terminal showed the money in her till
didn’t seem to match her takings.
JO HAMILTON: Former Sub-Postmistress, South Warnborough
I got to the end of the week, on a weekly balance, and I was £2,000 down. So I rang the
helpdesk and they told me to do this, this and this, and the number actually doubled
right in front of my eyes in the space of three minutes. The upshot was that I had to
repay the £4,000 which I didn’t have, so they took it out of my wages.
NICK WALLACE:
To Jo’s horror, the accounting discrepancies continued to pile up. She says she hoped
it was just a computer glitch that would correct itself.
JO HAMILTON:
I always thought one day some electronic wizardry would happen and that it would put
itself right. But it didn’t. I mean, there were nights, and people will bear me out
there were nights I just sat there sobbing because I just didn’t know what to do, how to
get out of the mess. I had no idea that this was happening to other people, I thought I
was the only one, and I just felt absolutely terrified.
NICK WALLACE:
Jo's mistake was not to challenge the computer’s figures, but to sign them off believing
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they were wrong. By doing that, she was telling the Post Office everything was fine,
when it wasn’t - which amounts to false accounting. Eventually, when the losses reached
£36,000, she called in the Post Office auditors, and the decision was taken to prosecute
her. Jo, who says she’s never even had a parking ticket, found herself in court.
ROCH GARRARD: Village Resident
The court case was amazing, because we all trooped down to the Crown Court for the
hearing and the judge sort of.. ‘Look, what’s going on here?’ And it was quite clear
that nobody there for a moment had thought that Jo had taken any money. But she had to
plead guilty to false accounting for saying the money was there when it wasn’t. But
there was no explanation from the Post Office as to what had happened to this money.
They didn’t prosecute her for stealing the money, they just prosecuted her for not
accounting for the money properly.
NICK WALLACE:
But that unaccounted-for money had to be paid back - somehow.
JO HAMILTON:
I had to remortgage the house and we borrowed £30,000 on that, and the village lent me
£3,000 and gave me £3,000 to make up the other £6,000, for which I'm very grateful.
NICK WALLACE:
Jo is not alone. Other sub-postmasters have got together and have formed a campaign
group, and in the next few weeks lawyers representing 55 of them plan to take the first
steps in launching a civil action against the Post Office.
So, Amanda, how big is this?
AMANDA GLOVER: Solicitor
Well, we're told at the moment that the clients we’ve got are, to some extent, the tip
of the iceberg. We’ve got 55 people that have already come forward, we’re told there
are more. We’re waiting very much to see what the final figure actually is.
NICK WALLACE:
All of the people you’re representing, is there one thing that keeps coming up in your
discussions with them?
AMANDA GLOVER:
They all seem to be saying that the system has caused them problems, but what...
NICK WALLACE:
The computer system?
AMANDA GLOVER:
the computer system. What we’ve found then when we’ve been talking to these
individuals is that there’s a number of issues for some people when you drill down -
they’ve had problems with training, they’ve had problems with support of the system - so
there are a number of factors, but it all seems to come down to what ultimately is
stored in the computer system.
NICK WALLACE:
And you, presumably, wouldn’t do this unless you were absolutely certain that they have
a case?
AMANDA GLOVER:
Yeah, yeah. I think once you’ve met these individuals, what you do find is they’re all
very good citizens, they all come with the same story - they wanted to be part of the
community. They’re very believable and when you’ve got such numbers, it has to be more
than coincidence that this is happening to such a large number right across the country.
NICK WALLACE:
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One of those people is David Bristow. Soon after he bought his post office and village
shop, he says his computer terminal began throwing up accounting losses. He called in
the Post Office auditors. He says they found that some of the errors were down to him
pressing the wrong buttons. But £42,000 of losses couldn’t be explained. He says he
was told he was no longer fit to be the sub-postmaster.
Dave, what’s it like being here rather than out the back in the post office serving your
customers?
DAVID BRISTOW: Former Sub-Postmaster, Odiham
I was suspended and it’s just been left like that. Although we’ve asked the Post Office
many, many times for information, they haven’t been forthcoming, and so I’m just
suspended.
NICK WALLACE:
Can you say honestly, on the record, that you never took any of that money?
DAVID BRISTOW:
Yes.
NICK WALLACE:
You haven't been going on any holidays abroad that we don’t know about?
DAVID BRISTOW:
No, no, no - there was a discrepancy that is unexplained. The Post Office do not know..
how or when or why the discrepancy occurred. They have their records which say there is
a discrepancy, but I can categorically say I’ve taken nothing.
NICK WALLACE:
For more than two years David has been in limbo, running the village shop with someone
else running the Post Office counter for him. But at any time, the Post Office could
close it down.
As far as the Post Office are concerned, the only way this can be resolved is for you to
pay them £42,000 which they say you owe.
DAVID BRISTOW:
Yeah, yeah. If I paid £42,000 to them, they probably.. well, just take it and that would
be the end of it. But I.. I didn’t take any money. I haven’t.. it’s a paper error, it’s
a computer problem, or somebody, somewhere, has not processed the information correctly
and they can’t find it.
NICK WALLACE:
So this is it, the computer system which so many postmasters see as the root of all
their accounting problems. We asked the Post Office a simple question: is there
anything wrong with it? And they gave us this statement:
POST OFFICE STATEMENT:
“The Horizon Computer System is absolutely accurate and reliable and has operated
successfully in over 11,000 branches for more than 10 years. It has been fully and
robustly tested and meets the relevant banking industry standards.”
NICK WALLACE:
While Jo Hamilton pleaded guilty to false accounting, she says she’s never understood
what was supposed to have happened to the missing cash.
JO HAMILTON:
Nobody seems to be able to explain it properly, and the Post Office never have to
provide evidence that you’ve had any money - it’s awful. If you're a law-abiding
citizen and all of a sudden you find yourself in this situation, it’s terrifying.
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JAMES ARBUTHNOT MP: Hampshire North East
I am actually very concerned about this because there are a lot of cases which seem to
be cropping up all round the country. The Post Office has been, I think, pretty hard-
nosed in the way that they have taken these cases to court. Now that’s pretty tough for
these people who have been faced with a new computer system, which they’ve been
struggling to master, and I think they need to think again and be more sympathetic.
NICK WALLACE:
But the Post Office say sub-postmasters are supported. They’re given full training,
including on-site supervision, and have access to a dedicated helpline.
There may well be dishonest sub-postmasters, just as you come across dishonest people in
all walks of life, and of course the Post Office have every right to go after law-
breakers. It says it deals with the transactions of 20 million people who visit its
branches every week and has a duty to protect all the money in its care. But some of
those who are accused of false accounting insist they never stole a penny, but were let
down by the system and didn’t get the support they needed.
Meanwhile, as Davinda waits for his wife Sima Misra to finish her 15-month prison
sentence, he faces another crisis. When she’s released, they’re going to have to figure
out how to pay back the £74,000 Sima was found guilty of stealing.
JOHN CUTHILL:
And we'll keep you posted on that story.
Ak ek ke