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2 HENRY STAUNTON: (audio begins) ... Change anything that
3 requires the government civil servant where we get
4 whistle-blowed and whatever, whatever. So you can -- it
5 is a massive, massive problem here in terms of trying
6 to -- at least you've got training going much better
7 now, things are moving in certain directions. But it's
8 a handful and, I've got to say, I've chaired some
9 companies, a lot of companies, very successfully but
10 this one's -- this one's a bit of a nightmare. But we
11 could have got through it but it needed UKGI to be on
12 side and I didn't feel they were on side for a moment.
13 And I'm sure that UKGI was talking to the journalist.
14 That's what they did before, not actually sorting out
15 the business.
16 KEMI BADENOCH: I know. I'm sorry to hear that but why
17 didn't you get in touch with me?
18 HENRY STAUNTON: Because I had an inkling only last week
19 with the Chairman and Chief Executive UKGI and was I was
20 going to tell them all this. I know it's UKGI but
21 I never met you, you see, and it's just -- but it's
22 I've chaired so many companies you would not
23 believe. I'm working on this business 60 hours a week,
24 whereas I can take Swiss, despite -- I chose Swiss as an
25 international company where the share price more than
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quadrupled and I could do that on 15 hours a week. This
is four times the time. You just wouldn't know the half
of it, Secretary of State.
KEMI BADENOCH: I do know, I do know. This is what --
this is what the world is like today within the public
sector. What I did find out of the ordinary was that of
all of the arm's length bodies that I'm responsible for,
the Post Office was the one where I never heard from you
directly. You know, the CMA, UCES(?), the British
Business Banks, the chairs of all of these organisations
would reach out to my office fairly frequently. And
Kevin Hollinrake did manage the relationship very well,
but there didn't seem to be any interest in doing much
more. So you and I haven't had a chance to build up a
relationship which would have probably been more helpful
at the moment the scenario turned from difficult to
crisis.
I've been given a very, very high level overview
of the government's issue that has led to the advice
given to me about the decisions which I now have taken,
but I want to make sure that you have had a chance to
make your views known as well. But, given where we are
and what I've just said, what would you like to see
happen now?
HENRY STAUNTON: Right. So what we need to do is actually
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I think -- it's a tery difficult one with regard to the
CEO, who's very unstable and actually I said to
Lorna we need to have an adult conversation with him to
say, look, stay through the inquiry and we'll treat you
as a good leaver -- nail him down for 12 months. Well,
of course, she says, oh, well, in this government it's
very difficult to offer good leaver status. If we have
a crisis, it's not a big deal; he might get an extra
100,000 that he wouldn't get if he wasn't a good leaver
but at least we nail him down for a year and the money he
would get for good leaver status actually seems to be
more important to him than actually the sums involved.
So I think we need to nail the chief exec down.
We must do something about -- we must make this
organisation more postmaster-centric. I said we need to
have an oversight committee chaired jointly by the two
postmaster directors, we need to introduce a third
postmaster director, so the message will get out to the
network post the Post Office is changing. And, trust
me, at the moment it is terrible the view of the
Post Office out in the network. So have a third
postmaster.
We're really then, Secretary of State, starting
this journey towards de-mutualisation. We're not to say
that, but that's what you need to do. The SiD process,
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it's six for two. "Hever mind what Lorna thinks and the
fact that we've gone outside. The fact is when the
facts change, you change your decision. We need to have
an internal policy -- if you met Darfoor you'd recognise
this is a class act which ought to be asked so we can --
I can quite see why everyone's got there. And the fact
that we started out on a public journey -- it was a
different world two months ago. I mean, we were just --
you know,it's just been horrific the last four weeks. We
need to get on the front foot and I think that
postmaster-centric does that for you.
There's this feeling within the business -- Richard
Taylor said all the postmasters are on the take and
they're all guilty as charged, we wrote to the Lord
Chancellor sating that was our view, and that would be
Peters & Peters’s. That’s not my view and I don't think
it's the view of the majority of the board but I think
that UKGI and people sending that letter with (unclear) --
it was a very --it was actually contrary to what the
government ministers were trying to do and in fact you'd
be surprised the sort of things your civil servants say
about ministers.
So it's a mess. But the fact is "you are guilty
as charged, postmasters are on the take" it's got to
change and we need a massive cultural shift in this
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organisation to dé“that. And most of the directors are
on side and the UKGI director is not. She couldn't --
she couldn't run a bath, let alone run a company. We've
got a big problem there. We need to take some very
tough business-like decisions in terms of culture to
change it. And when we talk about culture, as Nick
said, Lorna thinks it would just be a crusade for female
diversity. It's not that. It goes to the heart of how
we operate Post Office, this cultural shift. It's
enormous what we need to do but I think it's possible.
But I don't think it's -- you know, we need to
have Andrew as the SID. The Chairman would put it
through. I think you need to change the UKGI directors
and just get to the core. And it's a battle that's
winnable but, by God, it's going to be a battle.
KEMI BADENOCH: It certainly is and there is so much
that needs to be done and I'm very sorry that your
tenure with the organisation has ended up this way.
I know that the events of the last four weeks must have
been particularly difficult not just for you but the
whole organisation, you know, and I will go so far as to
say traumatic. But the complaints which we have
received are serious enough, I'm afraid, Henry -- they
are serious enough for us to have to intervene in this
way. I don't know how we would want to frame it within
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the press so that we can make sure that it isn't
something particularly awful. If you would like some
time to come up with a frame of words about ending your
tenure and the conversation --
HENRY STAUNTON: Well, I would -- I would like it drafted by
someone outside UKGI who's a true BIS. Obviously I have
a reputation built up over 50 years, Secretary of State,
and (unclear) successful chairmanship so I don’t want it
-- I was rung up by your people to say will I take the
job on. I didn't go applying for it but it's time to put
something back. So, you know, I felt strongly -- that's
the reason I took it. I'm not doing it for the pay.
So I'm very jealous of my reputation, so I think
you need to understand that and I would legally
challenge any comments made in that regard. So I think
it just needs to be -- a lot has happened and we're
looking to -- I don't know. I said what needs to be
done at Post Office and I think you can understand my
passion for how it could have been sorted, it won't and
how it won't -- why it may not get sorted and that's the
most important thing.
But in terms of my leaving, I think -- I don't
think you need to say a lot, really. "Henry's standing
down". Why do you -- you don't need to give a reason.
I don't need to give a reason.
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1 KEMI BADENOCH: Well, Ah ven the amount of media
2 scrutiny, I think it will be better for us to give
3 reasons and come up with a form of words that work,
4 otherwise it will just be speculation and so on that
5 will drive it.
6 If I could ask -- I've got my Private Secretary on
7 the line. If I could ask for your personal contact
8 details, I will get the office to draft a press release
9 which you can have a look at and it should reflect the
10 conversation that we've just had and hopefully we can
11 swiftly before there's any sort of announcement in the
12 papers.
13 HENRY STAUNTON: Well, I think if there's anything on
14 whether this is on whistle-blowing, I would
15 contest it hugely.
16 KEMI BADENOCH: Okay, that is understood. I will need
17 to make sure that --
18 HENRY STAUNTON: My reputation is very important to me, as I
19 say, over many companies. And I was asked to come and
20 do this. I did it -- I brought it back as the best
21 I can. I just -- I'm beginning to repeat myself.
22 If you hand me over, I will do it and let's hope that
23 it's a wording that you're happy with and I'm happy
24 with. It shouldn't be difficult. It should be quite
25 straightforward. Please keep it straight and simple.
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And there will pe Brough -- there will be enough crisis
in the Post Office in the next two weeks and this will
be just a small item in a footnote in due course.
KEMI BADENOCH: Right. Let me just speak to my Private
Secretary who should be on the line. Megan, are you
there? Or Anne? It doesn't sound like -- oh, I think
they can hear but they can't speak.
What I will do is I will take your contact details
myself because they will be able to log that. What is
the fastest way to reach you? Is it on your mobile?
HENRY STAUNTON: A mobile, which you've got, I think. Shall
I give it to you? It's
KEMI BADENOCH:
HENRY STAUNTON:
KEMI BADENOCH: And what is the
email address that we can send something to you fairly
quickly?
HENRY STAUNTON
“I All right. We shall --
HENRY STAUNTON: -- therefore, I won't turn up to the board
meeting on Monday or Tuesday.
KEMI BADENOCH: Yes, that is correct.
HENRY STAUNTON: Fine.
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1 KEMI BADENOCH: I'm sovty but that will need to be the
2 case given the conversation we’ve had and what I suspect
3 the media are going to be doing. And if it's any
4 consolation at all, I doubt it will be, but I'm very
5 angry about the fact that this has been leaked without us
6 doing this properly and --
7 HENRY STAUNTON: Appalling. Appalling.
8 KEMI BADENOCH: It is appalling and I have noted what
9 you have said about UKGI. I do think that they have
10 been part of the problem and that is the next step.
11 HENRY STAUNTON: I don't want to bombard you, that is the
12 view of most of the board. I had a meeting -- when
13 I said I've got a meeting with the Chairman and Chief
14 Executive UKGI, I said for governance purposes I've
15 never held a meeting just with the directors that aren't
16 on UKGI but to give me a view on what was said and this
17 is then taken very badly by Lorna but actually it's good
18 governance. And they just said you've got to tell them
19 straight. We support your strategy, give us the tools,
20 and we can do the job was the sort of summary of it. So
21 there's some serious work to be done in terms of the
22 UKGI situation.
23 KEMI BADENOCH: Well, let's see where we can get to
24 going forward. But I'm very sorry to have to make this
25 call, Henry, and I really wish you well.
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HENRY STAUNTON: that “S” okay. Stuff happens.
you, Secretary of State.
KEMI BADENOCH: Thank you. Take care.
HENRY STAUNTON: Thank you, bye-bye.
KEMI BADENOCH: Bye-bye.
Okay,
thank
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