Agenda for meeting re Post Office cases
17.00, 25 March 2013
Room N, Portcullis House
17.00
17.05
17.35
18.00
Welcome — James Arbuthnot
Second Sight — Ian Henderson, Ron Warmington
Update on investigations — process followed, rationale for
procedure, preliminary findings
MPs Q&A
Close
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Note
Attending
MP's offices
James Arbuthnot
Kevin Barron
Jonathan Djanogly
George Freeman
Andrew George
David Jones
Oliver Letwin
Jonathan Lord
Andrew Tyrie
Mike Wood
John Woodcock
Second Sight - lan Henderson, Ron Warmington
Alliance for Justice for SubPostmasters (JSFA) — Alan Bates, Kay Linnell
Shoosmiths solicitors - Tadge Channer, Rose Donoghue
1. James Arbuthnot welcome
When issue arose last July, all hoped it would be concluded by Christmas. This
Clearly not the case.
Meeting is update on progress
Conducted under the Chatham House Rule — outcome must not be prejudiced, cases
still live and issue extremely important
Post Office role
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investigations continue to be funded by the Post Office (PO)
Chairman, Alice Perkins, has been straightforward and open throughout
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o Attached letter sets out the current Post Office position, which is that it has
not been given the opportunity to offer any comment on investigations,
which are in any case not concluded as yet
o We must not prejudice result
Media — bad idea for any press releases to issue from the current meeting
o Will be opportunity in future for media to be informed, but not yet
Shoosmiths — kept the issue alive when there was little interest in it
Alan Bates — from the Alliance, focal point for the population of SubPostmasters
(SPM)
Kay Linnell — forensic accountant, acting as second pair of eyes to Second Sight, on
behalf of the Alliance
Second Sight — seriously experienced investigators
Second Sight briefing
49 live cases being investigated: 29 come through MP's offices, 20 from the JSFA
Each case
© investigators first seek file from the PO
can be up to 1500 documents per case
documents are indexed
SubPostmaster contacted and interviewed
Data combined with interview notes comprise the file
File goes to PO for verification
o Conclusions reached
Cases taking much longer than anticipated, as data is more complicated to compile
and analyse than anticipated, and necessary agreement between PO and JSFA
reached and published only in December 2012 - January 2013
Cases still at evidence-gathering stage
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Mike Wood MP
o how many cases seem to indicate that there are Horizon glitches?
o how many cases have been put to the PO?
Second Sight
o No cases put before the PO yet, as still at evidence-gathering stage
o No cases examined thus far appear to indicate theft
o Some cases from MP offices are too historically old to enable examination —
can’t go back more than 7 years and find meaningful data that would prove
anything one way or another
co JSFA has presented very good, current cases, and particularly those which
appear to have something to do with Horizon
o Investigators in continuing dialogue with PO
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o Once a case reaches a point where all information and data has been
assessed, then PO will receive the case file — this process is required by
agreement between JSFA and PO, and is properly evidence-based
¢ Kevin Barron MP
o How are relations with the PO?
e Second Sight
o Everyone wants to reach conclusions swiftly — in no-one’s interest to drag
this out
o Negotiated use of PO ‘model office’ so that investigators can replicate PO
processes
co Stories in many cases are largely identical, leading to common themes (NOT
preliminary findings) that can be presented (see Second Sight briefing note)
o Every document at the PO is potentially available to Second Sight
¢ Alan Bates
o Worrying that PO modus operandi seems to be to move to prosecution first
rather than investigate each case
© Still many individuals who are genuinely frightened to return to work and
highly sceptical of PO still - message from PO therefore is that it does not
really care
e Kay Linnell
o PO procedure should not be to sign off file for prosecution until cases have
been investigated
o False accounting charge is presented before individual can rebut it
e Second Sight
o PO contract with SubPostmaster does state that the SPM is responsible for
any losses, so some of the problem here is contractual
o Current investigations are the best chance available to get to the bottom of
the problem
¢ James Arbuthnot MP
o There will be a process by which the funding for the investigations will end
and where the PO can answer to the cases presented to it
o MPs will eventually be able to see if a constituent has been disadvantaged
o Chairman’s letter — Ms Perkins has promised that the PO will respond to
investigations
o Have to support Second Sight’s proposal to fast-track some cases and get a
result
o Looking towards summer for another meeting — is this feasible?
¢ Second Sight
o Yes, but once again may only be an interim report
o Have discussed funding with PO, and clear that PO wants to get this issue
solved
© Looking for glitches in Horizon very carefully
« Mike Wood MP
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o Are we convinced that the response from the PO will not be ‘minimal number
of discovered glitches in Horizon doesn’t tell us anything’?
Second Sight
o PO mantra ‘nothing wrong with Horizon’ therefore a single glitch found and
proved will make the PO look at the system again
Kevin Barron MP
o If Horizon glitch proven, then surely this opens possibility of judicial appeal
Second Sight
o Each case assessed on own merits
© Too dangerous to generalise about any
co If evidence of glitches found, Second Sight presents this, and it is up to
lawyers to decide what to do
James Arbuthnot MP
o Clear that if this is the result, then there will be lots of different cases to
consider
o Upto MPs to persuade PO not to dicker at the margins and confront what
needs to be confronted
o Look forward to a meeting in a few months’ time
Meeting closed at 6pm