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Alan Johnson MP
Minister for Competitiveness
David Higlett Esq Pm Department ¢ of
Private Secretary to Jeff Rooker MP 11 Ni ide and Industry
Department of Social Security NOV yyy 1 Victoria Street
Richmond House ot eT
79 Whitehall
London SW1A 2NS Pee
DTT Enquiies
A wovertbor (C14 0171 215 3000
Fax number
Deos Dewid) . Orit 2s 0s
HORIZON WORKING GROUP I
My Minister was grateful to your Minister for attending today’s meeting of the Horizon
Working Group. My Minister also apologises to yours for the misunderstanding about the
purpose of the meeting.
The purpose of this letter is to confirm discussions at this afternoon’s meeting.
Present:-
Jeff Rooker MP DSS
Alan JohnsonMP = DTI
David Sibbick DTI
Simon Lancaster PS/Mr Johnson
Dave Higlett PS/Mr Rooker
Colin Baker ..,. NESP.
John Peberdy NFSP
Stuart Sweetman POCL
Basil Larkins POCL
Terry Deegan CMA
Tony Harris CMA
Roger Darlington CWU
Tony Kearns CWU
Matthew Payton CWU
Discussions:-
Mr Johnson said that the Group had several deep concerns about the migration to ACT, both
before 2003 and after 2003. He invited Mr Rooker to speak to the Group.
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Mr Rooker said that he was still catching up with his brief, having been appointed in the July
reshuffle. He had had a meeting with officials from PIU last week and had expressed to them
his commitment to the success of the network and the PIU study. He is very clear in his own
mind that BA have a contract with POCL and they will honour it. However, it must be
appreciated by the Group that ACT is becoming an increasingly popular option, with
approximately 54% of new child benefit recipients opting for it, and 49% of pensioners. These
high figures have been achieved without the DSS deliberately marketing ACT.as an option.
Mr Rooker stressed that it is Government policy to maintain the Post Office network and,
although the DSS has got a big interest, he is 2 Government Minister before he is a
Departmental Minister and he will ensure his Department honours his Government’s broader
committment. He accepts that not all recipients will opt for ACT. The BA make 1 million
urgent payments a year (ie social fund payments) and it would not be possible for the BA to I
make these payments if people dist have a bank account. He has stressed all of these points
to Charles Clarke, the Minister responsible for the PIU study, and left him in no doubt as to
his strength of feeling.
Mr Johnson said that BA have given an undertaking not to encourage people to transfer to
ACT before 2003. However, there is still i) no agreement on OBCS and ii) no agreement on
floor payments. 1
Colin Baker said that BA have a contract with POCL not to encourage people to migrate to
ACT prior to 2003. However, he has seen new forms which BA have apparently been sending
out since at least October 1999 (copies circulated) clearly encouraging recipients to switch to
ACT. Mr Baker queried the consistency of this with the strong commitments made by various
senior Government Ministers in the House and, more particularly, at Select Committees. Mr
Baker’s members are extremely unhappy and are approaching him in increasing numbers about
this, demanding urgent explanations. Mr Baker is inclined to see Martin O’Neill, the
Opposition and the Liberal Democrats to complain about the Government’s inconsistent
stance. He said that Subpostmasters everywhere had been hanging on to the committments
made in the House and that it was absolutely vital that these committments were kept.
Mr Rooker said that he does not deal with child benefit but that his reading of the form was
that this was designed to force those people who, extraordinarily, demand to receive their
child benefit weekly, when the normal procedure is to receive it monthly. Mr Johnson said that
there was an issue around periodicity. The problem here is that BA appear to be encouraging
migration in advance of 2003. Mr Rooker said that he would take the child benefit claim back
to his Department and have it investigated as a matter of urgency. He said that he had to stress
however that this form is only going to child benefit recipients who are requesting weekly
payments, not child benefit recipients en masse. Mr Baker commented that the number on this
particular form led him to conclude that perhaps as many as 10,000 of them had been sent out.
Mr Johnson said that these forms were indicative of the problems being encountered with BA.
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Mr Johnson said that we need to resolve the issue of floor payments as well. Mr Sweetman
said that there had been some progress but that we were still not quite there.
Mr Sweetman said that, back in early Summer, when they were finalising the Horizon deal
with ICL and the Secretary of State at the DTI, they had been led to understand that a
migration plan (covering both pre-2003 and post-2003) would be prepared by BA by July
1999, This has not been received and they are anxious to get more detail. They want to work
in close partnership with Government but they are finding it difficult without a clear migration
plan. Mr Rooker said that he would be very surprised if his Department, having committed to
producing a plan, had failed to do so. .
In respect of the Agenda item concerning a presentation, Mr Rooker said that his Department
were not aware of any commitment to provide such a presentation at this meeting, but Mr
Rooker would want another meeting where he could properly discuss these important issues.
He would ensure his diary could accomodate an early meeting.
After Mr Rooker had left, the joint submission to the PIU was discussed. Mr Johnson said that
officials would circulate a version, if possible, before the end of this week. Mr Johnson said he
would contact all members of the Working Group with BA’s explanation of the child benefit
form.
Yours sincerely
Simon Lancaster
Private Secretary to Alan Johnson MP, Minister for Competitiveness.
Department of Trade and industry