ve
STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL
FOR USE OF NATIONAL EXECUTIVE COUNCIL OFFICERS ONLY
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NATIONAL FEDERATION OF SUB-POSTMASTERS
REPORT OF A MEETING
OF THE
NATIONAL EXECUTIVE COUNCIL
held on
18, 19 & 20 OCTOBER 1999
at
THE ABBEY HOTEL, MALVERN
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AGENDA
OCTOBER 1999
A/t_ REPORTS AND RESOLUTIONS of the
Executive Council Meeting held on 21, 22, 23 and 24 March 1999
Special Executive Council Meeting held on 16 May 1999
Post Conference Meeting held on 19 May 1999
Executive Council Meeting held on the 21, 22 and 23 June 1999
A/2) MATTERS ARISING FROM THE REPORTS
A/3, REPORT OF THE NEGOTIATING COMMITTEE
The following reports refer:- NC/POCL 17.8.99 [PAY 99]
POST OFFICE GROUP
1. Post Office Board
(a) Board iceccc ttt itteiee PO BD
(b) Shaping up for Competitive Success .....0..0..cee PO BD 03 !
2. Government Affairs
The Post Office Inquiry - Trade and Industry Committee .... PO PZ
3 Post Office Counters
(a) Post Office Counters Board .......ccceccee en ceeerseseese PO PC 02 NR
(b) Organisation Development .............. cosetttttesetesteeees PO PC 03
1
Revised 15.10.1999
* indicates alteration or addition to previously circulated Agenda
Off-Shore Islands
(a)
(b)
(c)
GUePNsey oo. cece cece cece cee ress neeesestsetisrteensnsonees vee
Isle of Man...
JOPSCY .oecceecsereeeseieee
POST OFFICE COUNTERS LIMITED
5.
Commercial
Euro Programme
Euro Programme and Europeanm Monetary Union...
Human Resources
(a)
(b)
Transactional Knowledge Review...
HRSAPs
Mailwork
Mailwork Review .........005
Network
(a)
(b)
(c)
(a)
(e)
Network Forums .
Consultation on Network Issues ......0..cececceeeeeereeee
Counter Automation - BA/POCL o.ccccceieeee
Cash Services National Meeting ..... veccsesecaeenteees
Shortage of £20 Notes....0...000055
Stock Services. cee fone
~ Secure Stock Quarterly Meeting
- Revised Stockholding Policy for Outlets
- Internal Logistics Review
2
«PC EU 01 NR
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O1GY NR
O1IM NR
OLY NR
..PC CM NR
..PC HR 04 NR
PC HR 06
...PC MP 04
.PCNWOI NR
PC NW 02 NR
PC NW 06 01
PC NW 09 03
...PC NW 0903 NR
PC NW 09 06
Revised 15.10.1999
* indicates alteration or addition to previously circulated Agenda
Security
(a) POCL/NESP Meetings
(b) Regional Security Forums ....
(c) Equipment....
- Security Improvements (1S!S)
- Access Doors
- Anti-intruder Alarm Grants
- Trial of Remote Alarm Signalling
(d) Trauma Care Programme..............
(e) Bravery Awards .......
Product Range 00.0. eee
Quality
Guide to the Disability Discrimination Act (DDA)............
Subpostmasters Contract
(a) Standards at Post Offices...
(b) Introductory Payment..
(c) Loss of Office (Compensation Agreement)
{d) PayPoint
{e) Counter Losses and Gains Policy........
(f) NIPOC visscccssssecesssssssssessevansssasenenseee
Subpostmasters Pay
(a) Pay Review...
- Identifying costs of running an office
(b) Pay Claim 1999
(c) Payment Rates .......
- Bill Payment
3
PC NW 11 01
«PC NW 1101
.PC NW 11 02
..PC NW 11 03
PC NW 11 07
PC PR
-PC QY 01
PC SC 03
PC SC 04
PC SC 12
»-PC SC 2101
PC SC 27
«PC SC 28
... PC SP
PC SP/1999
PC SP Ol
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NR
NR
NR
NR
NR
NR
NR
NR
NR
NR
Revised 15.10.1999
* indicates alteration or addition to previously circulated Agenda
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- RPP Parcels - Annually Revised Offices
20.
21
22.
23.
(d) New/Changed Products
POCL CLIENTS
Benefits Agency
PENSIONS .....ccceseeeeceececseesesteseenteees
British Broadcasting
TV Licencing ...........--
British Gas .......
British Telecom
BT Global Calling Cards ............
Electricity Boards .
Foreign Exchange ...........
Girobank
(a) Giro Business Deposits...........
(b) Winter Fuel Payments..
(c) Corporate Deposits «1.2.0.0...
UMsUrance oo. cee ee
Local Authorities ...0..0...000.
Lotteries
National Lottery ..........5.
PC SP 02 08
.CL BA 03
CL BC 03
CL BG
..CL BT 05
..CL EB
CL FX
.CL GB 08 07
.CL GB 08 12
.CL GB 08 15
CLIN
.CLLA
..CL LO 01
NR
NR
NR
NR
NR
NR
NR
Revised 15.10.1999
* indicates alteration or addition to previously circulated Agenda
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- Prize Payments
- Post Office/Camelot Lottery Bid
- Satellite Sites
25. Mobile Communications
Pre-Pay Vouchers v.00... doe tetectestestetenieneeiaressteseene CL MC 02 NR
26. National Savings
(a) NFSP/DNS meeting ......0..cccccccceseereenesresstesteerees CL NS O1
(b) Marketing... so cca eeseeesessesseeseascasestanersssseeseenes CL NS 03 NR
(c) ISAs - Crossed Warrants .....0.ccccccccesceeeteteteeteeeee CL NS 07 08
(d) Pensioners’ Guaranteed Income Bonds....................€L NS 08 04
27. Passport Agency
Issue of Passports...... foes cestecescteeees see CL PAO} I
28. Personal Banking
Personal Banking Services ......0..0.00cce eee CL PB NR i
29. Payment Collection Services oo... cece een eee CL PC NR
30. Parcelforce
Residential Delivery Trial i botetieteetectectenenevees CL PF 05 02
31. Royal Mail
(a) Format Based Pricing .... «CL RM 04 NR
(b) Millennium Moments en cottsaeiesee CL RM 05 06
(c) Royal Mail International see CL RM 06 NR
- Tariff Changes
5
Revised 15.10.1999
* indicates alteration or addition to previously circulated Agenda
33,
34,
35
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DVLA
Motor Vehicle Licences .CL VL0402 NR
- Proposed Changes
- Graduated Vehicle Excise Licence
- Motor Vehicle Licences - Northern Ireland
Water Authorities 00... voceetetstitiitetenies CL WA NR
Conference Resolutions 1999
99/RBI(F)........ Resolution 20 of 1999
99/RB1(Q)....... Payment for certificates of posting
Product payments
.. Training sessions National Minimum Wage
Recovery of loss of assigned office
.. Pay for double payment days
.. Automation payments policy
.. Payment for selling Postal Orders
... Payment for promoting products
Review of holiday, sickness substitution allowance agreement
99/23... ..sccs.s... Higher share of contract prices
99/RB2(E)........ New disciplinary guidelines
99/25,26,27...... Greater commercial freedom
99/3 bo ccscceses Recruitment scale - MSPOs
99/32. eeccscssses. Appeals procedure
99/34... Extended hours of business trial
99/35... Extension of hours outside core hours
99/37... 3 months termination of contract, extend to 6, where no loss of
funds
99/RB4(E). _ Subpostmasters callout to alarm without police support
99/47. _ Security improvements by POCL, agreed time scale
99/48. NACOS approved security engineers
99/49. Unified repair package for approved schemes
99/50, Losses during Cashco deliveries
99/51. ...Cashco deliveries outside normal hours:
A/4 SPARE HEADING
6
Revised 15.10.1999
* indicates alteration or addition to previously circulated Agenda
AIS
1.
(a)
(b)
(c)
(d)
(e)
SUB-COMMITTEE REPORTS
A) PUBLICITY AND DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEE
REPORT PREVIOUS MEETINGS
P&DMEETING = 26/27 July 1999
- 23/24 August 1999
FEDERATION MEMBERSHIP
FEDERATION ANNUAL CONFERENCE
Annual Conference - 2000 Eastbourne 15-17 May
Annual Conference - 2001 Llandudno 14-16 May
MEMBERSHIP
Membership Recruitment
Training Branch Secretaries
FEDERATION PUBLICATIONS
“The Subpostmaster™
Subpostimasters’ Handbook
FEDERATION PROMOTION & PUBLICITY
Sub Post Office Exhibition NEC 9-10 October 1999
Federation Posters
Caring for Customers Campaign
FEDERATION PUBLIC RELATIONS
CONFERENCE RESOLUTIONS 1999
FUTURE DATES & VENUES OF EC MEETINGS
January 2000 Sunday 9 - Tuesday 1) January
March 2000 Sunday 19- Wednesday 22 March
June 2000 Monday 19 - Wednesday 2] June
October 2000 Monday 16 - Wednesday 18 October
ANY OTHER MATTERS
7
* indicates alteration or addition to previously circulated Agenda
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FM AC
FM AC 2000
FM AC 2001
FM MS
FM MS 03
FM MS 04
FM PB I
FM PB OL i
FM PB 02
FM PP
FM PP OL
FM PP 02
FM PP 04 i
FM PR
Kensington Moat House
TBC
TBC
TBC
Revised 15.10.1999
Al6
A/T
As
B) FEDERATION TRUSTEES REPORT
C) BOARD OF BENEVOLENCE REPORT
D) CENTENARY CHARITIES
SPECIAL MATTERS
A) MEMBERSHIP
(i) Membership Statistics .........-c0
(ii) Propaganda Reports...
B) FINANCE
(i) Treasurer’s Report
(ji) Management Accounts 30.6.99
(ii) I Composite Branch Return...
C) JOURNAL
(i) Editor’s Report
D) TRADING
(i) Insurance o....c.cccceessc cetera
CONFERENCE RESOLUTIONS PRIOR 1999
CONFERENCE RESOLUTIONS 1999
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‘I
.. FMR 04
.. FM 0G 05 ¢
.FLAC 02
. . FLAC 02
. FECO 03
coe .. FM PB O1
. FLES 02
99/65... Purchase of stamps on account from sub post offices
99/72... .... Issue of game licences
99/77 oes aoe Savings account for small savers
QTE soos cecccescessseessess-. Opening of personal bank accounts
99/79... Redesign of new Savings Bank account opening forms
99/82... .... Access to the full range of Royal Mail’s products
99/83 oooccscssssssssseseveeeee Negotiate higher level of compensation payable for insured
services
8
Revised 15.10.1999
* indicates alteration or addition to previously circulated Agenda
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A/9_ MOTIONS TO THE EXECUTIVE COUNCIL
Peter Walsh:
That in view of recent events, there should be a review of the cycle and frequency of
Executive Council Meetings.
A/10) DEPARTMENTAL CORRESPONDENCE
(A) FOR DISCUSSION
POST OFFICE COUNTERS LIMITED
Human Resources
) Annual Survey of NFSP Representation/ i
Consultation Arrangement ........00.cccceeeeesecseeseee PC HR O1 i
Network
2 (a) Weekly Summary of Stock Issue and
Reconciliation..........0.... cevteiesietreseneetieanee PC NW 08 01
(b) Change to Standard Issue for Motor Vehicle {
Licence PC NW 09 06 ]
SubPostmaster’s Contract
3. Christmas and New Year Arrangements 1999/2000............. PC SC 05 01
POCL CLIENTS
Foreign Exchange
4 (a) Bureau De Change ooo. ceeceieereeee CL FX 01
- Take off Tuesday promotion
{b) Bureau De Change Pre-Order......... boevtesttee CL FX 02
- Take off Tuesday promotion
- Acceptance of Debit/Credit Cards
9
Revised 15.10.1999
eration or addition to previously circulated Agenda
* indicates a
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Girobank
5. Winter Fuel Payments 1999/2000 ..... : .. CL GB 08 12
Inland Revenue
6. Working Family Tax Credit (WFTC)
and Disable Persons Tax Credit (DPTC).... .- CL IR OL
Royal Mail
7 Campaign to Halt Underpayment ......0..0..ces cee CL RM 05 05
DVLA ¢
8 Photocard Driving Licence Applications - trial......0.0.......CL VL 04 03
AAO (B) FORINFORMATION
Commercial
1 Market Research ...........-+ vost eereessnitsssricssssstnatansessresees PC CM 02
Network
2. Helpline Update:. PC NW 10 C
Quality
Disability Discrimination Act Research ........ sete PC QY O1
we
Sub-Postmasters Contract
4. Centralising Quality of Performance for
Agency Client Data ..... bocteeiesiseteseusrenesssensseesseencsueeseneenes PC SC 06
10
Revised 15.10.1999
* indicates alteration or addition to previously circulated Agenda
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POCL CLIENTS
Benefits Agency I
5. Liaison Meeting with POCL Benefits Distribution Team......CL BA 01
Foreign Exchange I
6. Bureau De Change Pre-Order...... dreciessienneteeresseaenns CL FX 02
- Take off Tuesday promotion
National Lottery
7. Millennium Dome Ticket Sales... OL LO 04
8. National Savings
Interest Rate Charges ...... fone wn coun CL NS
9. Passport Agency
Passport Extensions... cee litte CL PAO]
Parcelforce I
10. (a) Royal Mail and ParcelForce WorldWide
Tariff changes... 0c ccs CL PF 04 i
Royal Mail
It. (a) Recorded Label..... cotteeteteceeee cece CL RM 05 02
(b) Millennium Stamps - Market Research...... ve CL RM 05 05
(c) Changes to the Re-Direction Services .CL RM 05 07
(d) Changes to International Tariff October 1999 CL RM 06 01
YW
Revised 15.10.1999
* indicates alteration or addition 10 previously circulated Agenda
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6
A/I1_ REPORT ON CENTRAL APPEALS
A/12) GENERAL SECRETARY'S REPORT
Employment Tribunal - Mrs Elizabeth Bain
NFSP Representation/Consultation Arrangements
A/13,) NFSP TRADING LIMITED
A/14. EXECUTIVE OFFICER'S REPORTS
AMIS. MATTERS RECEIVED TOO LATE FOR INCLUSION ON AGENDA
AN6 ANY OTHER BUSINESS
Revised 15.10.1999
* indicates alteration or addition to previously circulated Agenda
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REPORT OF A MEETING OF THE
NATIONAL EXECUTIVE COUNCIL
held on 18, 19 and 20 October 1999
at the ABBEY HOTEL, MALVERN
Present: Mrs J Kendall National President and Chairman
Mr N Bradbrook Mrs P Jervis
Mr J E M Burford Mr C Jones
Mr A R Butlin Miss C A Lindon
Mr M Challinor Mr D F Marshall
Mr M Darvill Mr H Morgan-Jones
Mr R Edmondson Mr J Peberdy
Mr B ingham Mrs S Reeves \
Mr J Jannetta Mr P Walsh I
Mrs P M Jenkins Mr J Willshaw I
In attendance: Mr C Baker General Secretary
Mr K Davis Assistant General Secretary
Mr P Heasman Assistant General Secretary
THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT welcomed everyone to the meeting and took
the opportunity to especially welcome MRS REEVES to her first Executive
Council meeting, expressing that she was sure to be an asset to the
Executive Council as she is known to be forthright in her opinions, A
welcome was also extended to MR BRADBROOK. THE NATIONAL
PRESIDENT though expressed that no doubt all the Executive Officers were
shocked and saddened to find out that MR ABERNETHY was no longer a
member of the Executive Council. He has been wonderful in Northern
Ireland. THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT informed the Council that MR AND
MRS ABERNETHY had been invited to attend dinner on Tuesday in their
honour and she hoped everyone would attend. THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT
had received a letter from MRS LINDON offering her apologies but she would
have to return home Tuesday evening as she could not find cover for her at
the post office. Everyone no doubt would understand her situation.
THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT advised the Council of some papers that
required a reference to be amended or moving to another part of the agenda
and that MR PEBERDY would report on some items even though they were
marked No Report.
MR EDMONDSON referred to Tom Coleman's letter dated 27 September
41999 which was circulated to the Executive Council under A12 on the 29
September. This letter made clear that POCL did not want the Executive
Council to get involved with the organisational changes within POCL and MR
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1989 Pace I
EDMONDSON asked if the Officers wanted to say anything before Mr Main’s
presentation.
A/1. REPORTS AND RESOLUTIONS
Executive Council Meeting held on 21, 22, 23, 24 March 1999.
Special Executive Council Meeting held on 16 May 1999.
Post Conference Meeting held on 19 May 1999.
Executive Council Meeting held on the 21, 22 and 23 June 1999
These reports were approved and signed as circulated.
A/2 MATTERS ARISING FROM THE REPORTS
There are few minor amendments to be made to the Minutes of the Executive
Council Meeting held on 21, 22 and 23 June 1999 MR BUTLIN requested
that the paragraph relating to Post Haste be re-written to refiect that he was
not talking about an incident but it was something that he heard about.
On page 40 of the Conference Report change “to” to “from” with respect to
the binding of the report.
On page 19 under the section entitled “Trauma Care Programme change
“Regional Secretary” to “Regional Security”.
THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT handed over to MR PEBERDY to report on the
A3 section of the agenda.
AI3. REPORTS OF MEETINGS OF THE NEGOTIATING
COMMITTEE
MR PEBERDY explained that the Negotiating Committee had tried to build in
changes to the way that the report was given to the Executive Council. He
would not report on items marked with NR (No Report) uniess information had
been received after the agenda was circulated but the Executive Officers
could raise any queries.
1 POST OFFICE GROUP
4(a) Board PO BD
MR PEBERDY explained that SCS at Board level are continuing to move and
the main work has been on the White Paper. A new 5 year strategic pian has
had to be re-written for Government due to the changes in the Horizon
platform. The GENERAL SECRETARY meets with the Corporate Board so
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 2
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he is kept up to date with the strategic direction. The GENERAL
SECRETARY'S report follows later.
4(b) Shaping up for Competitive Success PO BD 03
Newsbrief circulations have advised us that cash handling and logistics and ACTION
distribution have been moved. Security has aiso been separated and will be
dealt with at Corporate level. The GENERAL SECRETARY continued with
the report. A booklet entitled Post Office Network - an introduction was
circulated and the structure on page 6 reviewed. However, the GENERAL
SECRETARY pointed out that an article in the October edition of the Courier
differed. This will be looked into.
Stuart Sweetman heads up Network Banking and Post Office Network.
Customer Management appears under Network Banking and this is very
important to us. Post Office Network is one more delivery channel and will be
marketed as that. The business units will all have their targets. The
GENERAL SECRETARY has raised the Federation's concerns with John
Roberts but he has been assured that this new structure is only branding
We are asking not only for a formal interface with Stuart Sweetman and BL
but also an interface informally or formally with Richard Dykes and Kevin
Williams’ new business unit as a body. When cash was with the Counters
Business we were able to stop the trial, but if it was under another Group
Director's silo they will consider the impact on the network. Discussions are
being held with other unions as well as on our own,
MR INGHAM said that it appeared that SSL had quite an input and asked if
this booklet was aimed at subpostmasters. The GENERAL SECRETARY
explained that it wasn’t and was aimed at POCL staff. Some of them will lose
their jobs and some will be moved. They will be affected before
subpogtmasters. The GENERAL SECRETARY also confirmed that SSL are
not subscribers to PayPoint and are in fact an internal competitor so there is I
a concern.
MR BRADBROOK pointed out that that we will all have targets to meet and
the Directors will be looking after their own jobs. There are three items,
profit, longer hours and pressure to sell and POCL will set targets. MR
PEBERDY said that he understood what MR BRADBROOK was saying
Everyone will be looking to make profits so it is essential that we get the
consultation rates right and that issues which are currently fragile within the
network are addressed.
To conclude this item on the agenda MR PEBERDY referred to Newsbrief
99/73 which was circulated on the subject of security. There is a new Head
of Security and various territorial people. The last meeting had to be
cancelled due to the changes in personnel so we are keen to get a meeting
arranged as soon as possible. There is one concern that the new Territorial
Security Manager has expressed a desire to continue with Regional Security
Forums.
EXECUTIVE COUNCHL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 3
During the course of the meeting THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT welcomed Mr
John Main, currently the General Manager of the Eastern Territory who gave
a presentation to clarify POCL’s new network structure now entitled Post
Office Network Unit and offered some suggestions of consultation. The main
points were:
Mr Main said that this was not at a final structural state yet and any
arrangements are interim for the time being. PONU wanted to take the
Federation’s views into account. To be successful the unit depended
very much on it being more market and customer facing than in the
past. The market facing will be supported from the service delivery
elements so customers and clients will know they are dealing with the
Post Office. One point of contact will be through the Corporate Client
marketing facing unit. There will be sixteen business units, 17 if Group
Headquarters is included. The PONU comprises 90-92% of what was
POCL with the commercial team broadly being what has been
removed. The old organisation will actually be merged into the new
one over a period of months and this will mean a reduction in
headcount
The PONU purpose statement includes:
© to understand and development commercial relationships in order to
make itself UK’s No I choice for the important business of everyday
life
* to continue to deal direct with customers
« reducing unit costs and improving quality of service
regulator - requirements around the Post Office network therefore
have obligation in maintaining a nationwide network of post offices.
The Executive Council of the Post Office has two tasks: setting/
deploying direction and managing the direction of performance. The
EC is the only body which can set purposes and goals. The rollout of
Horizon is a number one Group priority as well as number one in the
Unit.
Stuart Sweetman will have a responsibility to the Post Office Board and
goals have to be agreed.
Operations will be responsible for negotiating subpostmasters’ pay
Mr Main assured the Council that no individual Business Unit can
compromise the Group and say they can provide business cheaper by
not using POC
In answering MR PEBERDY’s concerns of Government Gateway in
essence having gone to SSL, Mr Main explained the POC’s vision has
not altered the drive to put Government business through POC. The
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fact that it has been moved to another unit should not affect it. POC
recognises that if business is lost through ACT then to sustain a
network of post offices we have to find new business.
Mr Main confirmed that the major shareholder are the subpostmasters.
Mr Main advised that new business units will be having launch events.
These will lay down the new principles, accountability, achieving
performance, advertising, consistency conformance. The three General
Managers of the Territories are committed to this. When the policies
are established they will be deployed. Mr Main advised there would be
Service Level Agreements in a number of areas
With respect to reaching targets Mr Main advised that subpostmasters
would have to held responsible if these are not achieved. This has to
apply at al] levels, sub post offices and Crown offices. However he said }
not to assume that subpostmasters who don’t achieve will be sacked.
They will be helped which is no different to how the business is run
now. Mr Main confirmed that the reduction in headcount will only be
from the employed workforce.
In reply to the GENERAL SECRETARY ’s question Mr Main advised
that Network Transformation will mean as commercial pressures forces
changes a policy will be prepared incorporating these changes:
Horizon, Security, ISIS will fall within this area
Mr Main responded to MR DAVIS’ question with respect to who we
make contact with by saying that we should talk to Mike Granville to
work out the detail, Mr Main suspected that we go to the individual
who has good knowledge of the issue. He confirmed that they have
brought in people with a lot of knowledge, experience and background
Mr Main moved on to the Territories. He confirmed that the key role
in supporting the network was the Head of Operations Support who
would be the principle point of contact for Federation officials for the
future. He advised that for day to day issues that is the key role. Carol
Prizler is General Manager for the West Territory, Jerry Daley for the
North and they would be announcing the appointment for the East
Territory in a week. He explained that POCL wanted some stability in
the new organisation and some people automatically flowed through in
the retail line. In the territorial terms they are heads of retail network
and there was no flow through for the other jobs. Recruitment was
done on paper based interviews.
In response to MR DAVIS" question Mr Main could not give any
guarantees that the loop would not affect delivery but the processes put
in place would make it less likely for it to happen. If there was a
disagreement then the matter could be escalated to the Managing
Director.
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1899 Pace 3
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The GENERAL SECRETARY asked if Mr Main could see a potential
dilemma between the good for the individual business and the
Corporate good but the response was not too often and there will be
occasions when the business unit could benefit. It was also asked if
there was a possibility that Group could earn more money by moving
cash if not moved through POC. The answer was yes but a decision
could be reversed so it could be in the favour of subpostmasters. POC
want to do some tracking on the view of the post office franchise,
franchise being used in the widest terms
Mr Main confirmed that Dave Miller will be discussing the external sale
of stamps with his fellow Managing Directors.
Concerns were still expressed about the targets that will be imposed
upon subpostmasters without them having agreed to them and the
territories will be run with a strong focus on performance. Mr Main
explained that the targets imposed are dictated or driven by commercial (
pressures to get a contract. These would then be passed through the
organisation. However sales targets are different. The measurement
systems are not watertight and there is more work needed in this area
The QPA has improved considerably but it is still not where it should
be. Mr Main advised that pressure will be kept up so mistakes are not
made.
Mr Main continued with an explanation that an interim has been done
on the final territorial boundaries. They are common geographical
boundaries based on post code areas. Completion of the HORN and
RNM areas was not possible by the 27 September so HORNs have
been kept as they are but should be in place within 12-18 months. The
final boundaries will depend on the Horizon rollout and retail line
review. This is suspected to be 2001. Mr Main stressed that there is a
commitment from them to the Post Office group to complete the final ¢
boundaries.
Mr Main moved on to the proposed consultation arrangements.
Branch Secretaries would have a formal contact with the RNMs.
District Committees (Federation definition) would have a formal
interface with the Head of Operations Support but there is a need to
discuss how frequent. Executive Officers would have an informal
interface with the Heads of Retail Network The Secretariat
(Federation to determine) would have a formal interface with the
Agency and Network Transformation Team and an informal interface
with Sales and Service General Manager and other Post Office
Business Units. It was agreed that Mr Main would have further
discussions with respect to the above and respond
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pact 6
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MR BUTLIN asked how the Appeals Procedure would fit in the new
structure and Mr Main said that there was no answer as yet and he
would come back to talk. MR INGHAM asked Mr Main to consider
the more serious offences when the Head of Retail would more than
likely be involved in the decision the RNM makes, Mr Main said he
would take this away. MR DARVILL pointed out that at the moment
if a subpostmaster has an appeal he has the right to go to the Regional
General Manager and asked where would he go in the future. Mr Main
said he didn’t know and for the time being it would have to be the
Territoria! General Manager.
MR DARVILL pointed out that the Executive Officers now have an
informal arrangement with HORNS and that there was an additional
line manager in the structure. Mr Main advised that the whole of the
retail line structure was under review and would be moving to the new
organisation anyway. He said that HORN were still accountable for the
performance of the RNM
MR EDMONDSON asked if having had an informal meeting between
the Executive Council and an RNM would there still be an ability to
have decisions changed and Mr Main replied yes) MR JANNETTA
brought to Mr Main’s attention that under the present system the
Executive Council has a formal interface with Regional General I
Managers. The new proposals make no provision for that at all. He
asked Mr Main if that meant that the new territorial managers don’t
want to talk to the Executive Council. Mr Main explained that the new
organisation is different and contact should be at national rather than i
territorial level. The appropriate point of contact ought to be the Head i
of Retail Network. This will be different in Scotland as the North,
North West would have the expertise for the issue.
THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT asked if the informality was more a
discussion over the telephone or monitored meetings and Mr Main
replied it would still be in the form of meetings.
Mr Main confirmed that if there are any disagreement with the
interpretation of discussions with the HORN then to go to the General
Manager.
Mr Main was not able to advise how the Federation would interface
with security and logistics and said that security is not part of the
territorial team. He agreed to look into this. He also advised that form
stock is now a separate business unit.
MR PEBERDY expressed concern that tom Coleman’s letter inferred
that the Business wanted less interface with the Federation but Mr
Main reassured that was not the case and it was in everyone’s interest
to work closer together. He said he would welcome a response to the
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 7
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proposal. There is no suggestion that anyone is going to refuse or not
want to talk to the Federation. The Federation will want to talk with
Dave Miller from time to time and this will happen
Mr Main confirmed that overall one of the benefits of SCS would be a
total saving of circa £4-5 million a year due to a reduction in headcount
of 25-30% in support rather than front line service and accommodation
savings in the longer term.
In the short term Mr Main said in response to the GENERAL
SECRETARY’s question that the subpostmaster won't notice much
difference. They will notice a clearer and sharper performance over
time. By removing a chunk of the overheads will be a benefit to all
POCL believes that a clearer focus on customers and clients will attract
new business which has got to be good.
In response to MR JANNETTA's question Mr Main advised that this
new organisation will probably have a life of 2-4 years depending on C
outside changes. He said that we should expect any organisation in a
competitive market to change every 4-5 years.
MR PEBERDY asked if there was a service level between the business
units and the Territorial General Managers and Mr Main said their role
will be to deploy, The formal interface is between customer and
network, He is optimistic about the way the new organisation is
settling down and doesn’t get the impression that anyone is against
their cause.
MR INGHAM asked for more facts so subpostmasters are able to give
a good service to their customers. Mr Main said that they are
committed to give one day a week in the customer facing environment
There is a customer slot on the monthly agenda for feedback, They
realise they require first hand experience so they can understand the
problems
aN
Mr Main was unable to comment on what the size of the network
would be in the future because it is not known what the future holds in
terms of business. We will have to wait and see what the Regulator
says and it is not known what impact ACT will have on the business.
Some work has already been done with lan McCartney on what might
happen with ACT
MR WALSH advised Mr Main that there are perhaps 2 HORNs who
are not performing so well on accountability and budgetary and are less
successful in appeals. Mr Main said that this would be totally
unacceptable
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MR MORGAN-JONES asked what would be the business line of
approach on supply of posters and materials to promote that particular
product and Mr Main confirmed that there were still teams in place.
MR BRADBROOK suggested POCL look at asking Government for a
subsidy but Mr Main dismissed this idea. He said that business levels
are not declining at a rate of knots and the BA is going gradually while
other work is coming in, hopefully with banking in the future. He said
that Government’s aim was to have less outlets but if we can help them
by providing a front line service there is a lot of opportunity. POCL
probably won’t become a bank unless Government want to pay them to
do it.
Report ends.
THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT thanked Mr Main for his presentation
which she said was very interesting and the Executive Council looked
forward to seeing the results of a consistent approach. j
A hard copy of Mr Main’s presentation has been circulated to the Executive
Council
The outcome from the above presentation was that the Federation will be
putting its own requirements to the Post Office in due course and Federation
Headquarters were instructed to proceed along that line.
2 GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS PO PZ
The Post Office Inquiry - Trade and Industry Committee i
THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT wished to take matters relating to Horizon, i
Federation Campaign and Government's White Paper as they exist at the i
moment. I
MR PEBERDY first dealt with the White Paper and advised that the written
and oral evidence given to the Select Committee has come to fruition. The
evidence Martin O'Neill has given and put to Government is a clear indication
of blame on the Benefits Agency for failure. Martin O'Neill also made a
suggestion that Government had done a u-turn on the monopoly of stamps
and a Regulator should be put in place. This would be important to all of us
and we have received a promise that we will have an interface with the
Regulatory Committee. This body will have input when an office is
established or closed. The Opposition held a two hour debate on the Post
I
I
I
1
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 9 I
Office and some very valuable information came out of it. Many MPs heard
facts they didn’t know. Federation Headquarters must be praised for the hard
work they have done on briefing the MPs. Martin O’Neill also addressed the
fragility of the network and made specific reference to the fact that this was
due in part to the withdrawal of the Benefits Payment Card. He finished with
saying the Government must consider to pay to support the network which, as
MR PEBERDY said, are wonderful words.
MR PEBERDY continued with Horizon. He has heard criticisms that
information is not being fed back by written reports. At the first meeting held
in June 1999 the group were sworn to secrecy because they are party to a
great deal of information about the Post Office, including facts and figures.
Just before the change of Minister MR PEBERDY and the GENERAL
SECRETARY were pushing that members deserved to know but this didn't
materialise. After the reshuffle of Government, Alan Johnson has taken over
from lan McCartney. He was the General Secretary of the CWU and Derek
Hodgson was his assistant. The Policy and Innovation Unit has been set up
and they will make sure we get our message across. The PIU is good for the
network and good for Government. They have copies of the Select
Committee Reports which is very important. The Federation are fully
involved at two levels. There are likely to be weekly meetings, the Horizon
Working Group (HWG) meet monthly and a sub group will meet between
those meetings. MR PEBERDY advised that there is another issue with the
Benefits Agency. Not only are they not paying for it and then walked away
but they want to test the system for six months. Alistair Darling is not
agreeable to this. The Minister has got to get all the Secretaries of State
together. There was one more point MR PEBERDY wanted to share. Derek
Hodgson, the General Secretary of the CWU asked the Minister if Matthew
Paynton could be a link person for sending out correspondence. We have
been given assurance that correspondence would be sent direct to the
Federation and not through CWU. Derek Hodgson is not the unofficially
appointed Chairman from the Union side.
THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT asked if there were questions on what had
been said so far.
MR BRADBROOK pointed out that the BA, POCL and ICL have caused the
trouble and it was obvious POCL didn’t want the Federation to get too close.
The BA wanted a cheaper system. The subpostmasters investment is at
stake and if they lose 30% of their business then POCL will lose business.
The are shaping up for competitiveness. MR BRADBROOK continued with
the issue of bar coding which would save money for the Post Office, Benefits
Agency and Government. The bar code could give all the information
required including whether to pay or not, or pay and retain the book. He
stressed how the fraud cannot be spotted and the system has got to be
changed or we are going to lose the business. MR BRADBROOK went on to
say that the GENERAL SECRETARY is doing the Post Office's dirty work
He visits them to fight for the subpostmaster and works very hard
EXECUTIVE COUNCK. MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 10
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Government are dictating to the Post Office’s terms. He asked for the
GENERAL SECRETARY to go in and fight for the subpostmasters’ rights.
THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT asked the GENERAL SECRETARY to respond.
The GENERAL SECRETARY said we are not talking about PayPoint here but
£8-9 million. The negotiations would have gone wrong as the BA identified
tightly to be the villains. ICL are free from blame because they under-
estimated the size of the task. POCL are to blame because they were naive
and allowed ICL to write the contract. To some extent the Federation must
share some of that blame. There will now be a national audit office who will
investigate the £8-9 million and a public hearing will be held.
The GENERAL SECRETARY shared MR BRADBROOK's comments with
respect to bar coding. The BA could put everything on the bar code but they
are not cooperating. Great effort is being made at the HWG meetings to try I
to pursuade them but the Post Office is also working just as hard to make it
work, THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT added that even though POCL are
hanging the hat on the Federation it doesn’t mean that they aren’t supporting
us.
MR DARVILL expressed concern in the rumours that he has heard that POCL
still haven't signed up for Horizon. He asked if it was going ahead and if not
we would be in deep trouble. MR PEBERDY advised that Dave Miller had
confirmed at the Horizon meeting in the north east that the contract should
have been signed and £68m paid on the 10 August. This didn’t happen
because things weren't right. The HWG was told at their meeting on 11
October of the problems still being experienced such as training, system
instability, screen freezing, data integrity, HelpDesk. ICL have been pushed
to get it operating to a sufficient level. £68m wil! be paid on 24 October and
950 offices will be working with 1600-1800 by 7 November. It really is
happening. Government have been told that automation of the network will
be complete by 2001 and they will not allow this slip. £80m has to be paid
just after Christmas. The contract has been signed and accepted though
there is a recourse on certain items, failure to pay being one of them
MRS LINDON thought the Executive Council would like to know that Edwina
Parcelle is still campaigning on behalf of the Federation even though she is
now retired.
Moving on to the Federation Campaign MR PEBERDY advised that the
Liberal Democrats are very sympathetic to our cause. He felt that if we
manage to continue to get the support and get the public on our side we
should be able to overturn Government's decision on ACT. MR PEBERDY
handed over to the GENERAL SECRETARY to continue with the report.
The GENERAL SECRETARY updated the Executive Council with Phase 1 of
the Campaign. It was decided at the June Executive Council Meeting to
lobby Members of Parliament and stroke the customer. This is having an
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace I]
impact. Businessmen are going into MP surgeries and the feedback has
been staggering. This phase will carry on. A 2-page document has
been/will be produced which can be left with the MP and there is going to be
a reference included in the Queen’s Speech which is due around the 19
November, Now the MPs are back from the summer recess it is essential to
remind them again before the Queen’s Speech.
Phase 2 of the Campaign would be a rally of 1000’s of subpostmasters
descending on London for the reading of the Post Office Bill. The report on
Horizon from the Select Committee recommended that it could be forgotten
and the debate of the Select Committee on the White Paper suggested a link
between Horizon and the fragility of the network. There is an opportunity now
to come in with the BA comments and an intention to have an amendment to
the Post Office Bill with respect to the Benefits Payment Card. This doesn't
mean compulsory ACT will follow.
Phase 3 would be a full ACT Campaign but we don’t want to tip our hand too
soon. We don't want petitions or branches of subpostmasters getting
together and the GENERAL SECRETARY strongly advised that any pressure
from Branches to do something must be dissuaded. We must still be seen as
very concerned subpostmasters and the next step is to lobby your Members
of Parliament and leave something with them. Alan Johnson is different to
lan McCartney and will steer us to the direction where we are going.
MR MARSHALL asked whether we should be discussing the Campaign with
the membership but the GENERAL SECRETARY replied that at this stage he
did not think we should and believes it should just involve Federation
Headquarters and the Executive Officers
MR JANNETTA asked if there had been any feedback from the document
which had been sent to Branch Secretaries and advised that he was aware
that one Branch Secretary had done nothing with it. He also expressed
concern over the rally of subpostmasters at Westminster because it was
expensive for the organisation before. In his opinion it was not cost effective.
Green cards were given to the MPs but they didn’t respond. We have got to
be sure of its merit before we decide to do it. THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT
did not agree with MR JANNETTA’s comments and said that the previous
attempt had been effective.
In response to MR JANNETTA's question regarding feedback the GENERAL
SECRETARY advised that none had been received but it was essential we
did and it was up to the Executive Officers to ensure the Branches deliver
and feedback to themselves. He reiterated that the previous rally was very
effective and overturned proposals meaning that pension and allowance
books have been enjoyed for 20 years. The feedback that has been received
has been extremely valuable and successful and urged the GENERAL
SECRETARY urged the Officers to keep it up. There was one
disappointment however. One Member of Parliament has sent a letter to all
his subpostmasters in his constituencey and not one has replied. This MP is
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 12
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very upset with us. The people concerned have been informed and will make
contact with him as he will now need to be warmed up again. We must keep
pressing and we must know who has been visited and who sympathises with
us or not. Those who resist will build up a resistance and we don’t want that.
MR BUTLIN responded to the GENERAL SECRETARY by saying that he
thinks it is a mistake to approach the Members of Parliament. He believes we
need to educate the MPs rather than individuai subpostmasters make contact
with them. They do not know what we are paid. MR BUTLIN also did not
agree with holding a raily in London. His concerns were how would we get
1000 subpostmasters to London, who would pay them to go, who would cover
the office, He said that there are reai activists in Branches but there were not
many of them left. MR DARVILL responded by saying that we have done it
before and we would get them there. The MPs congratulated us on the
organisation and the way we conducted ourselves in-house, The vast
majority of MPs received the green cards and were happy to talk. MRS
KENDALL suggested that POCL may assist by closing post offices for the day
so that 18,000 subpostmasters can go. MR WILLSHAW said there had been
a meeting with MPs. It was successful and a subpostmaster stayed on to talk
to Dr Cable MP. He believes we need to stroke them as much as '
subpostmasters.
The GENERAL SECRETARY continued by saying that their agenda will be
different to our. All politics is local and anything that helps them to get
elected is good. The Lib Dems want to embarrass the Government. The
answer is not compulsory ACT, the answer is smart card. If action is taken
too soon we will close down the opportunity or at best change the decision
that has already been made. It is important to get into their manifestos then it
will be a campaign issue not just to embarrass Government. If we do our job
right it will be a non event.
MR BURFORD returned to MR JANNETTA's comments with respect to the
Branch Secretaries sitting on things. This gives reason for concern. He
advised that there are no subpostmasters in Scotland approaching MPs.
Individual businessmen receive sympathy from them so we have got to make
certain the Branch Secretaries get this message across.
In response to MRS JENKINS question the GENERAL SECRETARY
confirmed that a briefing pack was sent from Shoreham to Branch
Secretaries. In her opinion MRS JENKINS thinks a lot of subpostmasters
would be afraid to approach an MP and wouldn't know what to say. The
GENERAL SECRETARY explained that it is a slow burning campaign which
has been carefully orchestrated but it is time to turn it up. He acknowledged
MRS JENKINS point.
MR PEBERDY agreed with everything that had been said and it the Executive
Councit’s responsibility. We are elected. We have got to find out what
Branch Secretaries have done as a number one priority. There is some good
work filtering back. He went on to share what Alan Johnson had said.
EXECUTIVE COUNCK. MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 13
Government have suddenly realised that 50% of the network is under threat,
subpostmasters are concerned so they have got to find out more. He
concluded that he hoped the Executive Council will go away to deliver. THE
NATIONAL PRESIDENT acknowledge MRS JERVIS’ concerns about a brief
for the Branch Secretaries and said that a good one should be produced and
provide the Branch Secretaries with as many as they require.
MR MARSHALL advised the Council that a meeting had been held with the
advertising/PR agency John Walter Thompson who are the largest in the
world. They have dealt with Boots, Kelloggs, Shell, Post Office Counters for
example. They work very quickly and were very interested. Following
discussions on all types of campaigns they have come up with the idea of
posters, postcards (24 million) and a pension book cover (5 million) with a
calendar on the inside front cover. Samples of these were circulated. The
idea is to have 6 different posters so they can run on month by month, the
postcard includes a message on the back and can be taken away and it is
hoped that the cover for the pension book will be out before Christmas so
they can be given away. The campaign is due to start on the 29 November
and the posters will appear in the SubPostmaster journal.
MR MORGAN-JONES expressed his concerns on the cost of using JWT. He
suggested talking to the Post Office which would be a good thing if they
joined us. The GENERAL SECRETARY explained that they cannot be seen
to be helping in any way and they will remain {ike that for the time being. The
issue of distributing the postcards was discussed and the GENERAL
SECRETARY advised that we will see if we can get the postage of the
postcards free. It is a question of balance. The yellow in the logo is staying
at no extra cost. The important thing is that the postcards go out.
Subpostmasters need to be seen to be proactive. The right postcard needs
to be given out to the poster being displayed. MR EDMONDSON expressed
his concerns on whether the support would be there for distributing these
postcards. MR BUTLIN expressed his amazement that he had heard nothing
about this campaign until now and felt that something in writing should have
been circulated. He was not impressed and did not appreciate receiving a
knee jerk. He congratulated the P&D on the amount of work that had been
done but was concerned that there could be a considerable cost involved.
MR PEBERDY responded by saying that MR BUTLIN was once a member of
the Committee and this campaign has happened very quickly. The
GENERAL SECRETARY tried to assure MR BUTLIN and everyone else that
it was a small number of people involved. It was a thought out campaign and
it was felt a very necessary one. We are looking for devices for sub-
postmasters to talk to their customers. One question that the House of
Commons has asked is what were we doing to help ourselves. There was no
knee jerk but now were in a position to discuss it altogether.
MR JANNETTA suggested that the distribution of the postcards should
involve the branches, Branch Committees and motivate the Branch
Secretaries. They could pay the postage themselves. They could be told
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 14
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that it cost a fortune to produce these and now they can do their bit. MR
JONES said that they would have to go out on the same day and not every
branch could be trusted to do this. He suggested utilising Branch money with
Trustee reserves to get the job done. In his opinion central distribution was
essential.
MR WALSH believed that on the first hand the distribution has to be done by
everyone. If the Branch Secretaries aren't motivated whose fault was that.
He said it would have been nice to see the posters etc on a screen so
everyone could have enjoyed them at the same time.
in MRS LINDON’s opinion she thought it was essential to involve the
Branches and they must do it. Any that can’t be distributed can be posted out
of Branch funds. She thought this was a good opportunity for telling them
that these cost a vast amount of money to produce. It is time to regenerate
the Federation. We have had trouble on holding back members from doing
something. This will generate interest and perhaps is the road we should go
down.
MR JONES did not agree and thought this issue was too important to us as
an exercise to regenerate Branches. A lot has been tried and it hasn't i
happened in the past. He reiterated that we do need a central distribution. {
MR BUTLIN advised that he couldn't imagine the south west region going out.
He said you wouldn't get Branch Secretaries to see ten members in one day.
{t would be difficult in the south west but it has got to be done correctly and
professionally. He suggested that we may have to employ a distribution
company.
MR EDMONDSON thought there would be difficulties with displaying the !
posters as there can be very limited space to put them up. He would like
POPOS to be removed. MR WALSH said that as we don't receive an income
from POPOS he will cover it up with the posters i
MRS JERVIS said that if necessary the posters would go on her windows.
She would make an attractive display and customers would know about them.
She was, however, concerned about the cost. She offered to give up her own
time to distribute and, if necessary, come to Shoreham. She felt it was I
important to involve the Branch Secretaries. She has heard time and time
again that they are thrilled wnen someone from the Fed visits them
THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT asked the P&D Committee what was their
intention to find out exactly how many pension book covers etc were required
for members and non members as well. MR MARSHALL advised that an
estimated average of 250 postcards would be required per office and an
average of 300 pension books covers. If it is decided that they should be
delivered to Branch Secretaries they can determine requirements. It has
been discussed and suggested to select a Region eg the Midlands to identify
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 15
a rough correlation of the number of books required. This route could be
taken.
MR WILLSHAW asked how the cost of the campaign was going to be met.
The GENERAL SECRETARY responded that we will receive a bill from JWT
and on the face of it we will take a look at a proper billing exercise.
MRS REEVES agreed that we have got to activate membership and that
everything possible has been suggested to Branch Secretaries but it has
happened. She felt the same would happen if the distribution of these items
was left to them. Also the end of November is the busiest time of the year
with Winter Fuel Payments and she did not think we can ask the membership
and Branch Secretaries to undertake this. In her opinion a more professional
approach is required
MR JONES was concerned about the logistics of distributing 24 million
postcards. MRS LINDON said that we are talking about the future of the
network and the investment every subpostmaster has made and the very
distinct possibility of businesses being devalued. If we can’t get this
message home to Branch Secretaries and Committee members we may as
well pack our bags. She thought the Branch Secretaries were being under-
estimated
MR PEBERDY agreed that it is a huge logistical problem. He suggested that
Shoreham provide a sample letter and we direct it. We need to be advised of
the dates when these items are available and a decision is required to move
this campaign forward.
MR DARVILL pointed out that there will a lot of paper involved and could
weigh 1%-2 tonnes per Region
MR MARSHALL concluded that there is a very divided opinion on this issue
and the P&D Committee needed to obtain costings for delivery and provide
more guidance. He highlighted the confidentiality and asked the Council to
honour that.
MR CHALLINOR said that 30% of subpostmasters would not see the
campaign and asked if the material would be delivered to all subpostmasters
and not just members. MR JANNETTA supported this and said that the
campaign could be used as a recruitment drive. The last campaign brought a
lot of new members. The GENERAL SECRETARY advised that this had
been discussed with JWT and it was thought to be good idea for a certain
amount of material to reach non members. It was suggested to give them
one and if more was required they could then sign up to be a member. MR
BUTLIN fully endorsed the GENERAL SECRETARY’s comments and said it
was an ideal opportunity for branches or committees to deliver and talk to non
members and show them what we are doing for the whole network.
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MR MARSHALL advised that as far as non members were concerned it was
intended to put details of the campaign in the journal with one folder and
include a membership form. MRS LINDON advised that the P&D would have
to move quickly to make the November issue.
As already mentioned above it was agreed that MR MARSHALL would
provide costings Tuesday morning.
3. POST OFFICE COUNTERS
3(a) Post Office Counters Board POPC 02
There was no correspondence on this item and nothing to report.
3(b) Organisation and Development PO PC 03
THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT asked for any response to Mr Main’s report.
MR MORGAN-JONES said that it was what Mr Main hadn't said that was
important. We had heard what we expected to hear. He was very concerned
about where the Executive Council fit in with negotiations. With regards to
security if POCL have a policy where they want to introduce it nationally and
we have a problem which is not at national level who do we turn to. Do we go
back to security or territory. We don’t know what the security officers are
responsible for and the majority are investigation officers now. Mr Main didn't
know. He expanded on Tom Coleman’s letter which we were told to
disregard. Now we have to wait for him to come back with a response on
other items.
THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT said that the presentation covered the whole
business not just subpostmasters. She believed that Mr Main tried to be
frank and open
MR PEBERDY pointed out that Mr Main said that the Head of Operations
Support was extremely important and would deal with security, HRSAPs,
Comms. In MR PEBERDY’s opinion he sees the Head of Operations Support
equalling Commercial Development Managers and the Horizon Liaison
Manager who are people the Federation want to interface with. MR
PEBERDY said that it is up to us to go back to POCL to tell them who we
want to interface with. MR PEBERDY suggested that Headquarters prepare
a paper and circulate to the Executive Council for them to make any
comments, agree and return to Headquarters. Headquarters can then make
our demands on POCL. THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT pointed out that Mr
Main did say it was a proposal. MR JANNETTA felt that we have got to go to
them now and there can be no compromise.
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MR BRADBROOK stressed that we must have an independent arbitrator.
The system is corrupted in his opinion. The reshaping of the management
team will work all the way down and put pressure on subpostmasters to sell
It is not always their fault when the sales go down. The eventual outcome is
the threat of termination of contract.
THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT pointed out that we were supposed to be
debating what we should be doing and saying to POCL. Mr Main says the
Post Office will be for the network so let's give them a chance.
MR JANNETTA said that clarification is needed and it would appear that the
appeals system works different in the south east. THE NATIONAL
PRESIDENT acknowledged that this had been heard.
The GENERAL SECRETARY suggested that the Executive Council now
allow Headquarters to prepare a paper for their interaction. He did, however,
share the comment on subsidy from Government because of what the Select
Committee had said in their report about the possibility of getting money from ¢
them. \
MR PEBERDY's proposal as mentioned above was agreed to take forward ACTION
with none against.
4. OFFSHORE ISLANDS
4(a) Guernsey Ol GY
There was no correspondence on this item and nothing to report.
4(b) Isle of Man OlIM
There was no correspondence on this item and nothing to report.
4(c) Jersey Ol JY
There was no correspondence on this item and nothing to report.
POST OFFICE COUNTERS LIMITED
5. COMMERCIAL PC CM
There was no correspondence on this item and nothing to report
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 18
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6. EURO PROGRAMME PC EU 01
There was no correspondence on this item and nothing to report.
7. HUMAN RESOURCES
7(a) Transactional Knowledge Review PC HR 04
MR PEBERDY asked the Executive Council for permission to discharge this
item as it has moved on. It has been looked at, trialled and is now out there
Subpostmasters have been invited to do product knowledge events. It is no
longer necessary to negotiate. MR DARVILL mentioned that he understood
we were trying to seek payment for attendance to meetings. THE NATIONAL
PRESIDENT advised that it could always be brought back if required. It was
agreed to discharge this item.
7(b) HRSAPS PC HR 06
MR PEBERDY advised, as everyone was aware, that the new system has
been a complete failure. The Negotiating Committee visited Salford on 19
August and tried to put certain things in place. A letter was circulated on the I
45 October by MR DAVIS, We have now got to wait and see. It has been
noticed that the deductions for the Benevolent Fund are not being made. The
pay advices are showing that some have been paid and others not. MR
PEBERDY said it was the intention of the Negotiating Committee to make
another visit to Salford in November to see how they are progressing. They
requested 3 months to sort the problems out. We have requested a Service
Level Agreement from them. Tne design of some new forms is being worked
on and we want to be involved in this
MR EDMONDSON, MR MORGAN-JONES and MRS JERVIS all expressed
their concerns about inefficiencies and lack of service from HRSAPs I
MR DAVIS advised that subpostmasters are still facing 2 or 3 problems each j
week. He is looking into individual cases but if they are moved to the top of i
the fist it means someone else is pushed down. MR DAVIS is also concerned
that the Post Office are telling us to sort it out and avoiding their own
responsibilities. We will continue to pursue and keep the pressure on. No
output has been received from the August visit.
MRS JENKINS asked if we are still receiving a monthly payment from the
Post Office from membership. MR EDMONDSON was able to respond that
we are receiving a regular payment and it is accurate. He has been advised
that the mandates have been actioned but the preparation of reports to be
sent to Headquarters is difficult.
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 19
8. MAILWORK PC MP 04
MR PEBERDY reported that a Mailwork Forum was held in August and we
engaged with the Business to sort out the payment on vans. It would appear
that we are still waiting for information from Royal Mail. Another meeting is
required. We think the matter is resolved and then we hear that it hasn't
happened. In some cases we have not heard from subpostmasters who are
resolved. A complaint has been logged with Mike Granville and his team.
There is still a mystery as to where £5 million is. MR PEBERDY offered
congratulations to MR WILLSHAW for he work around the Ashford area. The
scheme in Doncaster has also been stopped and those subpostmasters
retained. © THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT pointed out that papers have not
been received. Outputs were not received from the meeting held in August.
9. NETWORK
9(a) Network Forums PC NW01
MR PEBERDY reported that a meeting had been held with Alan Barry and
Mike Granville to discuss stocks. There is a desire to return to the conditions
of appointment issue. Standards are being set but they need to be
formalised.
MR PEBERDY advised that an RNM in Leicester has been given the job of
reviewing the network. She would actually be doing a trial between South
Wales and South West and the Midlands. This was very new information.
She had to sign a declaration of secrecy but this would be ripped up if it
doesn’t happen. MR PEBERDY told of an incident with a post office which
was put up for sale but stopped as it wasn’t cleared by the RIB. Then twice
the assigned office payment was offered as compensation but the
subpostmistress was told she couldn't talk to anyone. It followed that there
were a couple of similar incidents.
A meeting will be arranged for the Negotiating Committee to discuss network
issues with the Post Office
MR MORGAN-JONES expressed his concern as to where the money will be
coming from for the Discretionary Fund. He hoped subpostmasters would not
be asked to take 1% out of their increment and said he would not be
surprised if the Post Office would go down that line. He said he found it
disgraceful that someone purchases a post office, improves it but then there
is no business for it. That is bad management. How can you represent a
member who made a bad business decision in the beginning. This is a worry.
THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT responded by saying that MR PEBERDY didn't
say the Federation or Discretionary Fund would be part of this deal. It would
only come up if a subpostmaster doesn't have the right to sell. 1% is not
actually paid. It is a national amount. MR PEBERDY confirmed there was no
mention of Discretionary Fund. The Council should be aware that POCL
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 20
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might be looking at various methods of shrinking the network. He suggested
that nothing should be mentioned for the time being and Executive Officers
would be kept informed.
MR DARVILL said that we have got to face the fact that the network is too
large to sustain but asked if we are going to investigate or do something so
we are in a position to defend
MR PEBERDY responded by saying that the HORNS are in a dilemma. they
are telling Government that the network is to be protected and the Regulator
will be requesting the reasons why it should be reduced. On the other hand
the network can’t sustain itself. There may be a day when we need to do
something with different money. The Discretionary Fund is near its limit.
The GENERAL SECRETARY said that we are fighting a campaign to retain
the network but there is a private. agenda and the Post Office has a similar
one. They would have to prove the network is too big. The rural network
could be someone else’s problem but it is our problem at the moment. The
pay system robs Peter to pay Paul but Europe may come in to help. Those
are private agendas. A meaningful meeting has not been held with the Post
Office yet. As far as the urban network is concerned it was a different
problem with a different solution. Maybe this argument may not be a bad way
of making two post offices into one if both parties agree. We want to get I
involved in that but it won't involve the Discretionary Fund. Government have
said they will maintain a nationwide network of post offices so we don’t want I
to go to the Regulator and say that we want to reduce it. We want banks and f
building societies to use it I
MR EDMONDSON asked if anything had been done with respect to MSPO I
membership. MR PEBERDY said the Negotiating Committee had been asked I
to come up with a wish list of negotiations to include in the pay claim and one I
of those items would be MSPOs I
The GENERAL SECRETARY advised that he has met with Fourbouys (who
are now with Martins) and Alldays who haven't paid membership since May '
4999. He had received a categoric assurance from Alldays that they would
resume their membership back from May when it expired but the cheque had
not been received as yet. Fourbouys had given a commitment that they
would consider and if they come in it would be for Martins as well. We are
still waiting for a response. A lot of effort has gone into chasing them.
9(b) Consultation on Network Issues PC NW 02
There was no report for this item and had already been covered.
9(c) Counter Automation - BA/POCL PN NW 06 01
Most of this discussion had already been covered under PO PZ. MR
PEBERDY said but there was cause for some concern with bar coding books
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 21
and Horizon printing Girobank forms. The Post Office and ICL have gone to
independent assessors to check the bar coding and a report was expected
last week, The rollout will stop on 7 November when everything will be
reassessed. The reports should be provided at the Horizon Working Group
meetings. The Negotiating Committee have received draft proposals to deal
with the offices which can't be solved.
THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT advised that the Post Office and BA have been
into an office in Newcastle for a week and found no problems with the bar
code.
MR MARSHALL showed the Council the gift received from Bruce McNiven
sent to 300 offices, subpostmasters and assistants thanking them for their
time and effort. He understood that many have been sent back. MR
MARSHALL asked what would be checked in the 2 month break. There are
still concerns about balancing which is taking far too long, is not user friendly
and is too complicated a system to adopt. The focus groups decided with
Bruce McNiven have not happened and now he has been moved Hopefully
they will be happening again but there are lots of things still not working.
MR BUTLIN pointed out that the south west area was going to be the last for
Horizon to be installed. However bar coding is not a problem in this area. He
hoped the 2 month break would be used to rectify the problem and said there
is no reason why Horizon can’t balance at closing.
MR EDMONDSON advised that the Minutes of the north east meeting which
were 10 pages long had been circulated. Some of the offices had been
included in the trial. A questionnaire had been sent to all these offices. At
the end of the meeting the attendees were asked if they would like Horizon
scrapped. Everyone agreed to stick with it but hault and reintroduce it right.
Complaints were received on balancing and training though some trainers
were excellent. After having received training some subpostmasters did not
feel competent to do a balance. He explained that one subpostmaster ended
up with a breakdown through the stress and pressure and many were very
distressed. MR EDMONDSON went on to say thal we have got to back
Horizon because we want it to happen but asked are we being fair to
subpostmasters. He felt that we have got to go back to the Post Office and
get them to get things right before national rollout.
The GENERAL SECRETARY responded saying that the difficulties are
known and there are a number of issues. The modifications required are
costing an additional £13m and will be marketed as a success for the
Federation. He went on to say that in spite of the pressure lan McCartney
put on Dave Miller, lan McCartney was of the view that Horizon had to make
the deadlines. Alan Johnson has a different view. When Dave Miller asked
him if he wanted Horizon to rollout he said no, not until it has been improved.
Different training and software was essential. We can claim credit that the
programme was brought forward to stop at 7 November. The review will
answer questions to everything and we will be involved as users. ff it is still
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 22
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not right in January it won't rollout any further. £60 million has changed
hands but that's not all. The next payment is meant to be £85 million but they
will be holding back £5 million as too many things are still wrong with it.
These 2 months are very important and it is essential the deadline of 2001 is
met. 1600 post offices will have been automated by 7 November.
MR DARVILL brought attention to the fact that allocation of equipment was
given before a survey was done and it was found that the printer had to go
into the footwell. This meant that staff could not sit down and had to craw! on
the floor to use the printer. MR JANNETTA thought we were being
shortsighted with respect to the ceiling of £4 million for office modification.
He would like the ceiling to be raised. MR PEBERDY offered a word of
caution on this point. MR BRADBROOK pointed out that Tesco and
Sainsbury for example would not put up with the problems subpostmasters
are experiencing with bar codes and said that for a company which is making
millions of pounds POCL is not up to scratch
THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT asked if there was any discussion required
The GENERAL SECRETARY raised the issue about Health and Safety and I
screens as there were a number of people who are concerned. He reminded I
the Council that a booklet was issued to every subpostmaster some time ago I
An extract on the Horizon equipment does fall under the display screen I
regulations but does not apply at present because the operator does not use
the equipment enough to be certified as a user. This has been accepted by
the CWU and CMA
MR EDMONDSON advised that it could be worthwhile for subpostmasters to
acquire a copy of the Health and Safety Act. He gave an example of a
subpostmaster quoting from it when equipment was being installed and the
engineer decided to back down.
Q9(d) Cash Services National Meeting PC NW 0s
MR PEBERDY reported that a circulation has already been sent out.
Meetings have been held with the new Cash and Distribution Unit and two I
figures have been offered to the Negotiating Committee for payment on
Christmas and the Millennium. MR CHALLINOR had prepared a slide
presentation but unfortunately THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT had to move the
meeting ahead. She apologised to MR CHALLINOR for going to the troubie
of preparing the presentation and not having the time to view the
presentation. .
MR PEBERDY went on to say that there are huge concerns by all banks and
cash providers of what is going to happen over the length of time, the
potential fears of the Millennium Bug and running out of money.
Guesstimates have been made of £8 billion being required. The Post Office
have expressed their concerns that BA are going to issue Winter Fuel
Payments over two separate periods. The first stage is from 8 November
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 23
when 1% million cheques of £100 will be issued and the second stage of 5%
million cheques, % of £50 and % of £100 will be issued on the 22 November.
The payments will be issued over our counters. Along with that will be the
£10 Christmas bonus being issued on 6 December and the winter fuel
cheques will be cashed around the same time. Therefore, the Business have
decided that they will not be making additional funding this year without
subposimasters ordering it to cover the £10 bonus payments. The
Negotiating Committee have seen the draft instruction and have made some
alterations. Advance payments of pensions and allowances will be made as
follows:
Christmas Eve - due 17 December
27 December - due 20 December
28 December - due 21 December
31 December (Bank Holiday) - due 29 December
3 January (Bank Holiday) - due 29 December
Even though ffices in Scotland will be open on 4 January, the BA have
insisted that benefits due that day are to be paid on 29 December. Preorder
coins for delivery in certain weeks and £2 coins week commencing 6
December. Each individual office will also receive a letter advising them of
the proposed funding arrangements and will be requested to amend if
necessary. The problem will be offices not having enough space. We have
spoken to Security and Audits. They realise there will be a problem and they
have said they won't hold the subpostmaster responsible.
Concern was expressed from MR JANNETTA, MR BRADBROOK, MR
EDMONDSON and MR MORGAN-JONES with respect to automatic
defunding after the holidays, the Post Office appearing to think they know
more than subpostmasters, the possibility of too much money being supplied
and how they worked out their figures.
MR DAVIS was able to assure the Council that subpostmasters have the
opportunity to change what the Post Office suggest. He advised that a very
important message to report back to members was to contact Cash
Management. He confirmed that POC had based their planning on industry
standards which involved all the banks who have been tracking customer
requirements. Additional notes were being printed purely for the Millennium
and they were quite happy to over fund so subpostmasters had more money
rather than the reverse. Secure carriers have the same problem. POCL had
been receptive to what the Federation have been saying, particularly on
security which was the most vulnerable. He advised that the Federation had
had input into the letter dated 25 October which would be sent to RMNs
Although not totally happy because of the massive funds offices would be
holding given the criteria it was the best possible. MR DAVIS was pleased
with the level of consultation. MR BUTLIN congratulated Headquarters for
having some input into this issue. MR JANNETTA asked if subpostmasters
could be contacted before defunding. MR PEBERDY said that this would be
taken back to POC.
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THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT said that the agenda had to moved along and
MR JANNETTA requested that the discussion be consistent with other
subjects.
Qe) Shortage of £20 notes PC NW 09 03
There was no correspondence on this item and nothing to report.
Qf) Stock Services PC NW 09 06 I
Secure Stock Quarterly Meeting I
MR PEBERDY reported that quarterly meetings have been held at Hemel
Hempstead. The output from the meeting on 2 September has been
circulated. The next meeting is scheduled for 26 October at Hemel
Hempstead to discuss Christmas arrangements and the revised stockholding
policy for outlets. A letter from MR DAVIS dated 11 October 1999 to Dermot
Martin had also been circulated with respect to the internal logistics review
where we brought to their attention the problems that we are experiencing.
MR DARVILL pointed out that a lot of errors were happening due to the
design of the order form, for example if 10 sheets of stamps were ordered
and only 10 stamps were received. There was no emergency delivery now
and Roya! Mail can’t handle the numbers of special! delivery out of Hemel. In
MR DARVILL's opinion as more orders go to Hemel the problem will worsen
and will return to having to wait for two weeks to receive stock.
MR PEBERDY advised that Hemel are now presorting the special delivery
items because of that problem and it is understood that problem is now cured.
If that is not the case then the issue will be raised again
THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT asked for any problems to be directed to MR
DAVIS. She asked for no more discussion on this matter.
MR JANNETTA continued to advised that it now takes 20 minutes to prepare
an order. When Hemel receives it they can’t read it. They don’t return a
copy with the order so it can’t be checked. He does not understand how this
ordering system was accepted by the Federation but if it can’t be changed :
then he insisted that a copy must be returned I
MRS REEVES raised a question about stores. Was the faxable preprinted
form from Swindon sti!l happening. Was it known how long the trial at North I
Thames & East Anglia was going on for. She had expected to see an item
reported at the last meeting and asked when it was discussed within the
Executive Council, This issue has not been reported before or at this
meeting.
EXECUT:VE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 28
In MR BUTLIN’s opinion the Federation should not have agreed to the trial in
the first place as more work was required and there had been no agreement
on the pay claim.
MR PEBERDY explained that the computer checks the value and will pick up
any errors. A disk is currently being trialled and enquiries will be made at the
next meeting as to the status. MR DAVIS advised that the current system in
use at Hemel cannot cope with anything different and cannot be changed yet.
MR JANNETTA found it unbelievable that that their system couldn't cope with
ordering stock by number and stressed that we must tell them that we need
this. THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT reminded everyone that the Federation
represents all members and that the Negotiating Committee would no doubt
make their feelings more strongly than MR JANNETTA had.
In response to MRS REEVES question MR PEBERDY advised that there was
a card produced to order by fax but it was too thick. He understands that an
alternative was being worked on so it could be faxable. MR DAVIS
understood this had been produced. He will check with Dermot Martin at
their forthcoming meeting.
Revised Stockholding Policy for Outlets
MR PEBERDY reported that a paper had been circulated on 6 July 1999
requesting comments by 15 July. On the basis that the trial was for 2 months
as agreed the Post Office were adamant to push ahead with itI MRS
REEVES pointed out that there may have been a difference of words. The
paper had asked for a minimum of 2 months for the trial which she felt had
left it rather open ended. MR DAVIS could not advise the results of the paper
ballot as he hadn't got the papers with him but he could give categoric
assurance that the results was that the trial could go ahead and he pointed
out that the letter sets out our terms for the trial. The trial must be evaluated
in January 2000 and POC have said that they will not rollout the policy until
the trial has been property evaluated and the Negotiating Committee would
not want to agree to rollout if the success criteria was not achieved. We have
asked them to record all enquiries on the trial on their own helpline
MR WILLSHAW asked how many people responded and what was the
response. He said there have been no other meetings to discuss this and it
was a very serious subject
MR DAVIS responded that if there was a suggestion that the papers were
being used to avoid a decision or discussion that was not the case. He
thought the majority probably did not reply but he would always act on replies
received.
MR EDMONDSON pointed out that the Washington stores would cease to
exist on 25 October but nothing had been received. He wondered if that was
exceptional or should they have been received. MR PEBERDY advised that
a letter was sent to Dermot Martin on 11 October requesting a date as there
EXECUTIVE COUKCI. MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 26
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had been no confirmation on this. No response had been received. THE
NATIONAL PRESIDENT said that the matter would be taken up.
10 SECURITY
10(a) POCL/NFSP Meetings PC NW 1101
There was no correspondence on this item and nothing to report.
10(b) Regional Security Forums PC NW 11 01
MR PEBERDY advised that correspondence had been circulated on 18
October with respect to Tim Wheeler's departure and other staff changes. A
meeting with Tony Marsh, Head of Security is being sought. Although
security is being brought back into the Centre there are signals that there is
going to be Regiona! Security Forums. With THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT’s I
permission it proposed that Mike Wood be invited to next year’s conference
He is a friend of the Federation and has done a great deal for
subpostmasters. This proposal was agreed.
MR BRADFORD made a point that at a Regional Security Forum in the south
east they did not like criticism and gave 5 minutes to attendees
10(c) Equipment PC NW 11 02
Access Doors
Some time ago MR DARVILL had suggested to the Council that it be put to
the security people to move the door locks up and so it wasn’t so easy for
people to get their hand through a gap but this suggestion has not been
taken up.
MR BUTLIN had previously asked in June whal the situation was if someone
wanted to buy Screen 2000 on a joint basis. He had been told this was still
available but the security people in the region have advised there is no
budget. He asked that this be taken up with Territory.
MR BRADBROOK stressed that more Screen 2000 would make the problem
worse. The door has to be sorted out first and requested that someone listen
and strive to solve the problem. THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT acknowledge
that the problem had been heard.
Anti-intruder Alarm Grants
MR JANNETTA asked where the claim for annual maintenance grant was to
be sent now and it was confirmed that they be sent to HRSAPs
MRS LINDON advised that the new Screen 2000 parcel interchange unit is
easily kicked in and requires looking into.
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The GENERAL SECRETARY responded to these issues. With respect to the
access doors this issue had been raised with security and now will have to be
teaddressed. The old agreement of 55/45 is still in place for Screen 2000
payments but there is no budget for it at the moment. The GENERAL
SECRETARY confirmed that the matter of the transfer unit will be raised with
POCL.
MR BRADBROOK expressed his concern with respect to the amount of
money that will be held in the post office for Christmas and the security issue
with the doors. He asked that it be made clear at the security meetings that
we do not want the RNMs coming in and saying how much the subpostmaster
has to pay following a robbery
MR CHALLINOR advised that the HR Service Centre are not doing annual
maintenance grants and the Regional Security Team are still doing them. MR
DAVIS confirmed that following the meeting on the 19th POCL were asked
the question and were told that the anti intruder alarm grants had gone back
to security for processing and to be advised. This still hasn't been cleared as C
far as MR DAVIS knows
10(e) Trauma Care Programme PC NW 11 03
There was no correspondence on this item and nothing to report.
11, PRODUCT RANGE PC PR
MR PEBERDY requested that this be discharged from the agenda as there
was nothing to report and this item has been included in bill payment issues.
12, QUALITY PC QY 01
MR PEBERDY believed that POC should be congratulated on this item.
Disablement & Disability Act was the main focus of their stand at the
Exhibition, they have issued a CD and the seminar was very good and they ¢
are supporting subpostmasters with it. Our concerns have been flagged up
to them and it has been agreed in discussions of the Losses and Gains Policy
that these issues will be addressed. They are doing a good job.
13. SUBPOSTMASTERS’ CONTRACT
It was THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT's intention to discuss Mrs Bain and all
items relating to the National Minimum Wage etc. Correspondence has been
received from the Low Pay Unit. All of this was discussed
The GENERAL SECRETARY advised that the letter from the Low Pay Unit
has been faxed to the solicitors, Clifford Chance. THE NATIONAL
PRESIDENT, MR PEBERDY and the GENERAL SECRETARY met with them
and they are considering the implications of Mrs Bain's case on
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 28
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subpostmasters generally, An interim verbal report has been received. The
Low Pay Unit are supporters of the case in the sense that one subpostmaster
has been actively engaged with them. They have made some fairly sweeping
statements which are a little disturbing. The GENERAL SECRETARY
explained that the Low Pay Unit is a charity which does some good work and
act for the low paid. The letter was reviewed and the Federation needs to
take much caution with the sweeping statements with respect to hours of
attendance and set hours. The letter does recognise the difficulty of the
Federation to preserve the freedom of subpostmasters and understands the
dilemma as the offices vary considerably.
The privileged information is that Clifford Chance have said that the Bain’s
case looks almost certain to win. {f the Post Office challenge it the Post
Office will go down. This is a product of extreme facts in the Bain’s case. I
She works 37.5 hrs for that much money. There are 280-300 other I
subpostmasters in that category who are full time but earn the minimum
payment. The subpostmasters employed by Fourbouys, Alidays, Martins etc
would not be within the legislation as they are employed by someone else.
The other subpostmasters vary considerably in the way the office is operated
so each case would be different and would have to be considered on the
merit of that one case. The solicitor has suggested the Post Office might
want to test this and suggest if possible we try to do it together to select tiers
of different types of subpostmaster and test the contract to see whether or not i
they qualify. The timeframe could be 2 to 3 years and end up in the House of I
Lords. You could be entitled up to the National Minimum Wage even if you
give no time to the business. The Working Time Regulations would also
mean that a subpostmaster would be entitled to 4 weeks holiday. This is why
each subpostmaster would have to be judged on its merit. The solicitors are i
also reviewing the removal of staff and non staff costs. The implications for
the network judged by the hours being divided by the net pay would mean
many more subpostmasters not receiving the National Minimum Wage if the
costs can be renewed. However, the Working Time Regulations could still
apply and there is an issue how the Post Office would deal with providing
cover for 4 weeks holiday. The implications for the network are there to be
seen. The solicitors have also said that the Post Office can change or revise I
the contract unilaterally. The Post Office is considering their position. The I
working assumption is that the Post Office will appeal. The solicitor says that i
the Post Office is in a very difficult situation and it will be up to them and
individual subpostmaster to prove that they are in business on their own
account and have a portfolio of interests like a grocery shop and a post office.
Therefore you might get outside of the definition of worker. But if a
subpostmaster is within the definition of worker and the Working Time
Regulations apply then the costs of running the network would significantly
increase and therefore a network review would be much more rapid than
currently envisaged.
MR BRADBROOK pointed out that the Post Office is in a very difficult
position because the Government won the election on National Minimum
Wage and it would be difficult for a department such as the Post Office not to
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 29
agree to pay. He does not think we should get involved. With respect to the
4 weeks holiday MR BRADBROOK thought that this should be paid the same
way as POCL pay their staff and subpostmasters could be much better off
with the work being done for us. The press will pick this up and he is sure
that we can fuel the press to get a good write up for ourselves.
MR JANNETTA pointed out that the letter from Mrs Bain dated 19 April
requesting financial assistance was not circulated until after the case was
heard with the GENERAL SECRETARY'’s response. He pointed out that the
Federation, especially in Scotland, got a lot of flack from the press because
they picked up on the fact that we did not pay her bill to go to the Industrial
Tribunal. In his opinion the Federation will be in more trouble if we don't
support her with financial assistance for the next stage. He made the point
that the Federation can’t influence the decisions now but if she wins this will
affect all those subpostmasters that are in the same category as her and if we
don't support her the Federation will end up with a lot of egg on our face.
MR BRADBROOK replied that if we support one case then we would have to
support all the others. This could cost thousands The legislation has only
been in for 6 months brought in by the Labour Government and it is being
challenged by an individual.
MR WALSH agreed that Mrs Bain should be supported by the Federation but
for the right reasons only.
In MR BUTLIN’s opinion a decision has got to be made one way or the other.
We can't give her moral support and not financial support and vice versa
But when he has explained his own personal opinion at meetings the
members have understood where the Federation are coming from. MR
BUTLIN does not want to be an employee. This will mean that the Post
Office will cut hours. He believes that more lega! advice is required before a
decision is made and would like to see more information and comments from
Post Office Counters. What happens if they win the appeal.
THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT reiterated that the decision was not that Mrs
Bain was an employee but that she was a worker. If the Post Office does not
appeal then it will go to a Meritive Case who would decide how much award
would be given to her and arrears if any should be paid and the Act only
came into force in April 1999.
MR JONES agreed that we are not in a position to make a decision today
He reminded the Council that Federation's policy has always been not to
provide legal support. If we supported one case we would have to support
others. He personally would also like to see legal opinions
MR BRADBROOK reiterated that we should not get involved with this
particular case as we didn't start it. We can provide support by talking but
not financial, There would be further implications and the Post Office could
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 30
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say that perhaps there is something wrong with the contract. He believes we
should take a step back and leave it to the Post Office to take the flack.
THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT pointed out the wider implications because we
have an opinion that it rolls over to Working Time Regulations
MR PEBERDY said there are two distinct issues. We have got to wait for
advice a see how it sits with the ramifications of everyone eise’s contract.
We could find we are addressing something that doesn't suite all
subpostmasters. The Post Office have only got 42 days from 23 September
to decide to show their hand. We would need to know how much this case
would cost and how long it would take. The solicitors have warned that the
costs could end up in the House of Lords. He said that it is the Federation's
job and there may be letters prepared at Headquarters that the Council are
not aware of.
Tne GENERAL SECRETARY responded that there have been many
applications for financial assistance and not one had been successful so far
at a Tribunal. The decision was made to continue the policy set by the
Executive Council. If Mrs Bain had lost this discussion would not have
happened. Others have not been debated because they were kicked out.
We must await the solicitors’ opinion and wait to see if the Post Office appeal.
MR PEBERDY said that Mrs Bain’s latest will be circulated to the Executive
Council with a copy of the Judgement for deliberation and response to Mrs
Bain.
THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT asked for any requests. MR EDMONDSON
proposed that the GENERAL SECRETARY replied to Mrs Bain saying that
after due consideration the Executive Council had decided that at the present
time the Federation was not in a position to offer any financial assistance.
The position would be reviewed as information comes forward.
MR BUTLIN preferred that it be said that it has always been the policy of the
Federation not to provide financial assistance in legal cases and expressed
that his view remain unchanged.
These proposals were not seconded.
MR JANNETTA responded that it has always been the policy of the
Federation to support members in litigation. But in this case the first hurdle
has been won. The Tribunal were now taking on the Post Office. This
member has asked for representation and he could not see how the
Federation could refuse to support her.
MR WALSH said that he was happy to second MR EDMONDSON's proposal
MR DARVILL reminded the Council that financial assistance had been
offered in Northern Ireland so it could not be said that the Federation's policy
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was not to support a member. He agreed with the GENERAL SECRETARY
that we haven't got the full story yet. Mrs Bain may not need financial
assistance. He agreed that we wait and see what the outcome is.
MR WALSH sympathised with MR JANNETTA but felt that we should show
some sympathy towards Mrs Bain. However, if it is ano win no pay situation
why should we supply finance.
The GENERAL SECRETARY pointed out that Mrs Bain’s second letter was
not asking for money but support. If the Post Office do not appeal then Mrs
Bain and the other 280 subpostmasters would get the National Minimum
Wage. But there could be another Employment Tribunal the very next day in
a different category and we would not have control of the situation. This is in
the hands of the legal people and we are recipients of what's going to happen
whether we supported Mrs Bain or not. We need to understand the
implications of Mrs Bain’s case for every subpostmaster. This could be the
Pandora's box that closes the network therefore the GENERAL SECRETARY
advocated no action yet la
MR BURFORD endorsed everything the GENERAL SECRETARY said even
though this case was within his region. He advised that he had addressed 3
branch meetings and when he explained the situation they endorsed what the
Federation had done. He reminded the Council that Mrs Bain became a
Cash Account office which made her revisit what she was doing and being
paid, Peter Abraham was very supportive and advised that we were very
cautious and make sure we acquire all the information required and was very
supportive of what the GENERAL SECRETARY had done and said so far.
MR BURFORD believed we were on the right course
MR PEBERDY in his opinion believed another holding letter was required
saying the Executive Council have debated the issue and feel that sufficient
facts having taken further legal advice themselves on the implications for the
network as a whole are not yet in a position to fully quantify your request.
The Executive Council also ask her what she means by “prepared to take this
into the next stage as a Federation representing us should the hearing vote in ¢
my favour’. This kind of letter does not close the door :
MRS LINDON asked for guidance on whether anything should be published
in the journal. She asked to put on record her thanks to the GENERAL
SECRETARY for his guidance and Kate Davis for the splendid job she did
researching and providing answers. But now they being criticised and letters
are coming in protesting because they are not published. This was due to
lack of room. MRS LINDON asked if they should be published or ignored.
The GENERAL SECRETARY asked to avoid publishing letters until we are in
a better position after receiving legal opinion. MR JONES asked if that meant
not publishing any letters on the subject or just our opinion. The GENERAL
SECRETARY responded that the letters was entirely up to MRS LINDON.
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13(a) Standards at Post Offices PC SC 03
There was nothing to report
13(b) Introductory Payment PC SC 04
There was nothing to report.
13(c) Loss of Office (Compensation Agreement) PC SC 12
There was nothing to report.
13(d) PayPoint PC SC 2101
There was nothing to report.
13(e) Counter Losses and Gains Policy PC SC 27
There was nothing to report.
13(f) NIPOC PC SC 28
There was nothing to report.
14. SUBPOSTMASTERS’ PAY
14(a) Pay Review PC SP i
: Identifying Costs of Running an Office
There was nothing to report.
14(b) Pay Claim 1999 PC SP/1999
MR PEBERDY commenced his report by saying that hopefully the Executive
Council had been kept up to date with the correspondence. The members
have been kept informed through Branch Secretaries Circulars and reports in
the journal. Following discussions with Dave Miller a letter has now been
sent to Stuart Sweetman requesting a meeting with the Corporate Board. He
hoped support from the Council was forthcoming so far. Subpostmasters are
struggling more than ever. The Business has got a responsibility. It is the
view of the Negotiating Committee that the offer of under 2% is not
acceptable and subpostmasters are not expecting this to be accepted. No
complaints have been received. It is felt that our demand to see the
Corporate Board will make those aware who move the budget around that not
enough is being directed to subpostmasters if they want the network to
remain. However MR PEBERDY warned that Board of the Post Office does
not negotiate but it is hoped we will get there. It is not known who the Board
will see, the whole of the Negotiating Committee or the GENERAL
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999. Pace 33
SECRETARY on his own. MR PEBERDY requested that any input from the
Executive Council be put in writing to him anything else they can think of.
MRS REEVES asked if the Hartley McMaster survey had gone out identifying
the costs of running a post office. MR PEBERDY advised that to our
knowledge it hadn't but Mike Granville has said that it is ready. The format
has been agreed but the time has got to be right.
MR BRADBROOK pointed out that as far as London is concerned the
Negotiating Committee had their full support. He said that we have a high
profile with the GENERAL SECRETARY negotiating with Government
Ministers. He said to let it run, there was no hurry and subpostmasters do not
want to accept the pay offer as it is. But there was a worry that it might be
imposed. He asked the GENERAL SECRETARY if he could be enlightened
with respect to introductory payment and the contract. He understands that
the introductory payment can be negotiated out and removed provided there
was a change in the contract. The GENERAL SECRETARY advised that it
could be included in the claim as a string but POC might not accept that as
they do make money out of it but we do have a policy. MR BRADBROOK
reminded the Council that Alex Docherty had asked to change the contract to
a 5 year contract, and as a thought, if this had been accepted we would have
been in the position to decide what should be removed.
MR BUTLIN advised that members do not appear to have a view on the pay
issue when asked. He agreed with adding strings and wanted self inking
date stamps to be included as there was a concern about limited space on
the counters due to the Horizon equipment.
14(c) Payment Rates PC SP 01
- Bill Payment
The Negotiating Committee met with Paul Harris on 1 October. The outputs
were only received on Friday and would be circulated to the Council. Paul
Harris was told that things were happening which required our input. A list of
schemes and rates would be provided prior to any change was made. The
gas agreement ends in April 2000 and the negotiation on the split on the
payment to subpostmasters has to be agreed and we get up to a 40% share.
They have been asked to break down the categories into the old and new
payment rates. However they are into renegotiations with BT and BBC on
their contracts. MR PEBERDY advised that POC business unit are about to
engage in negotiations with BT and BBC and we will be closely involved once
they have progressed further. There is a concern if they decide to use bar
codes on bills which is one option or use the savings card instead of stamps.
Research will be done by ourselves.
MR DARVILL advised he had seen a an article in a North London paper that
Campden Council are changing from a Giro inpaying scheme to a plastic card
because there were 45 PayPoint offices within the area and this would help to
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alleviate some of the queues in post offices. It would also save £168,000 in
admin costs because the post office had put their rate up. He believes that
the Post Office is pricing subpostmasters out.
MR PEBERDY confirmed that Girobank are trying to get out of it and a
number of Councils are receiving ietters advising that the voucher scheme
will not continue. MR PEBERDY suggested that when speaking to local MPs
and Councillors to ask them why they are trying to stop this scheme. MR
PEBERDY asked MR DARVILL to provide the Negotiating Committee with the
example of the BT bill received by the post office.
MR MORGAN-JONES advised that BT bills have been advocating the use of
plastic cards in recently delivered bills so we will see a reduction in the
savings stamp system.
MR EDMONDSON made the point that the cost of the plastic card scheme is
very excessive. MR JANNETTA advised that Girobank are charging Councils
50% more than for the voucher scheme, so why are they paying us less
There are added extras which most Councils don’t want.
MISS LINDON advised that sales of savings stamps are diminishing quite
rapidly but the bar code doesn’t save time as it doesn’t work and you still
have to input. This could be included in the negotiations. The saving in time
isn’t there and is affecting quality in service. THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT
said that Horizon would alleviate part of that problem but understood the
problem currently.
The GENERAL SECRETARY responded that we will insist an opening of the
books for prices. These are the rules of engagement which they have agreed
to do again. As far as BT negotiations concerned PO don’t get paid for
stamps by BT as part of the global settlement they are therefore not making
anything on savings stamps. The GENERAL SECRETARY advised that the
issuing of cards would be part of the negotiations. Also the utility bills are
being driven down by the regulators but we would see what we can get for
these so it is unlikely that we will manage to increase the pay. The
GENERAL SECRETARY congratulated those offices who are doing
MANWEB. It is working and is successful.
- RPP Parcels - Annually Revised Offices
MR PEBERDY reported that we are still trying to sort out monthly revised
offices and the question of arrears. We are still waiting to receive proposals
for the method of annually revised offices but we want to clear the monthly
ones first.
14(d) New/Changed Products PC SP 02 08
MR DARVILL asked if there is any news on the amount being offered on the
£5 coin. He said that the savings are not being passed onto us. MR DAVIS
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advised that currently the payment is 3.9p per coin sold and there is an
agreement to increase this by the movement in pay each year. POC have
refused to tell us how much they are getting. The cost of distribution and cost
of return of coins is very high and they are under contract to the Bank of
England. MR DARVILL replied that the Post Office were trying to encourage
more coins to be sold throughout the network and disputed the cost of
distribution. Royal Mint deliver direct to some of the CRUs. If coins are
returned to the CRU and reissued they get another 35p so if it is not a lot of
money why is the Post Office pushing so hard. THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT
closed this matter and said an attempt would be made to get 34p.
MISS LINDON raised an incident where a subpostmaster had not received
payment for the £5 coin and when he contacted HRSAPs was told that
subpostmasiers had to request payment. This issue has been addressed in
the GENERAL SECRETARY’s letter:
15 BENEFITS AGENCY
Pensions CL BA 03 (
MR BRADBROOK raised issues with respect to the cameras. The film cannot
be passed on to the Benefits Agency and fraudsters are caught on film.
When this issue is raised at the House of Commons it looks bad on the Post
Office. Our job is to catch these fraudsters and save our money. The Post
Office sits on the film or throw them away. The cameras are meant for fraud
and attacks. MR BRADBROOK'’s second point is that subpostmasters are
being suspended when the dockets are found in the tin and they go back
through the dockets. MR BRADBROOK would like these issues addressed
with POCL.
The GENERAL SECRETARY thought the camera issue had been resolved.
They were meant for attacks and were never designed for fraud. The only
issue was £30 for developing the film. This issue will be readdressed with
Security, On the second issue the GENERAL SECRETARY thanked MR
BRADBROOK for contacting him about sending benefit books to Alistair ,
Darling. This might have inspired Mr Darling to take more work away from
the post office. But MR DAVIS and the GENERAL SECRETARY could not
spot the fraud and this issue will also be raised.
16 BRITISH BROADCASTING
TV Licencing CL BC 03
MR PEBERDY reported that since the agenda was formed there has been a
letter circulated dated 30 September to Dave Miller because we received a
copy of a statement with the PayPoint logo on the bottom of it. A response is
awaited from Dave Miller, The bill is sent out by Revenue Management
Services Limited and they reserve the right to include details of alternative
methods of payment.
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17 BRITISH GAS CL BG
There was nothing to report.
18 BRITISH TELECOM
BT Global Callina Cards CL BT 05
MR PEBERDY reported that these cards are being sold mainly in bureau on
demand offices and we are still trying to get a payment for it. At the moment
sales are low but once the Post Office have established volume of sales we {
shall receive an offer which the Negotiating Committee will consider and put I
to the Executive Council. I
I
MR JANNETTA had already communicated to MR DAVIS the problem with
BT bills accepted after cut off on Day ‘A’ on and asked if there was any
progress. MR DAVIS responded that the issue MR JANNETTA is enquiring
about is where a QPA error is issued for Day ‘C’ receipt for a bill that was
accepted 2 days earlier. MR DAVIS has written to Mike Granville and is
awaiting a response
19 ELECTRICITY BOARD CLEB
There was nothing to report.
20 FOREIGN EXCHANGE CLFX
There was nothing to report
21. GIROBANK
20(a) Giro Business Deposits CL GB 01
There was nothing to report.
20(b) Winter Fuel Payments CL GB 08 12
MR PEBERDY reported that POC an offer has been circulated. The
Negotiating Committee have discussed this and gone back to the Post Office.
We are hopeful of moving those rates slightly. MR PEBERDY asked for the
Council's permission for the Negotiating Committee to continue with its efforts
to increase the payment to subpostmasters.
MR MORGAN-JONES asked for clarification on pensions and allowances
MR PEBERDY said it was based on those people who were likely to be true
recipients of winter fuel payments but this would be checked, so in essence
not group 5.
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MR JANNETTA advised that advertising from the BA has been through Spar,
newsagents etc but not post offices and this was presumably because the oy
Post Office want to be paid to distribute leaflets. If this is the case can it be !
investigated how the BA distributed these leaflets. The opportunity has been
lost to give this information to our customers and we may lose some of them.
MR WALSH presented one of the booklets. He explained that it is in Londis
stores with PayPoint next to it. Giro cheques and payable orders are
mentioned in it and he wondered if this was a new way that the BA was going
to distribute the winter fuel payments
MR BUTLIN advised this was investigated in the south west and PayPoint
had signed a contract with the BA to distribute MR EDMONDSON advised
that there had been a problem in Newcastle with people cashing green Giros
but then told the DSS that they had never had them. The problem had been
taken up directly with the DSS.
MR PEBERDY requested that any information that the Council manage to get €
about the leaflets be passed to Shoreham. It could have been investigated
and might have some relevance on the payment. MR JANNETTA had only
received his information on Friday.
it was unanimously AGREED to seek an improved payment for the work. DECISION
20(c) Corporate Deposits CL GB 08 15
There was nothing to report.
22 INSURANCE CLIN
There was nothing to report.
23. LOCAL AUTHORITIES CLLA ¢
There was nothing to report.
24 LOTTERIES
National Lottery CLLO O01
MR PEBERDY reported that we have been in communication with the
business for some while. An offer is imminent for payment on prize
payments. A meeting is required to discuss other issues for exampie
reimbursement of electricity costs for those offices which have got satellites
but not in receipt for the rental for the satellite
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Concern was expressed about the Helpline cutting off and crashing and MR
PEBERDY pointed out that it was a BT message on a BT phone system in
relation to the new licence to operate the lottery. MR PEBERDY reiterated
that the Post Office Corporate Board will only pay £20m if Camelot are the
successful bidder. It is not a payment being made out of Post Office Network.
The Post Office have said that the network will be available to the successful
bidder which is 4 smart move.
25 MOBILE COMMUNICATIONS CL MC
There was nothing to report.
26 NATIONAL SAVINGS
26(a) NFSP/DNS Meeting CLNS 01
The Negotiating Committee met with National Savings. They are under Peter
Bareau the new Director and are keen to move back towards the Post Office.
It is good to meet a client and we were able to let them know that the reason
the Post Office has moved away from them is because they have moved
away from us. They are paying the Post Office an element for displaying
leaflets. NS want to move away from transaction based payments but it
would appear that the PO want to keep this. NS were told that
subpostmasters would be incentivised if the leaflets on display earned them
money. The new Commercial Director, Chris Mocksy, was keen to look into
this. A new product is coming out on the 29 October which is a Fixed Rate
Savings Bond. It would be available over post office counters with inpayment
system by Girobank. The Post Office want payment to be the same as the
Giro system and they will also pay the ad valorem on it. Likely payment will
be 18.63p per transaction plus ad valorem.
MR MORGAN-JONES was delighted to see the NS was moving towards the
post office again and said it was down to Peter Bareau. He had no hesitation
in proposing that we accept the payment for that work.
The application form for this transaction is very simple, just like a Premium
Bond.
The proposal was seconded and carried
26(b) Marketing CL NS 03
There was nothing to report.
26(c) ISAs - Crossed Warrants CL NS 07 08
MR PEBERDY advised that there a new Fixed Rate Savings Certificate out
Again if there was a method of displaying these leaflets and subpostmasters
would receive some payment they would do it. There is a payment offer of
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 39
28.6p for ISAs - Crossed Warrants. The Negotiating Committee recommend
acceptance subject to any increase resulting from 1999 pay settlement being
applied.
This payment was accepted.
26(d) Pensioners’ Guaranteed Income Bonds CL NS 08 04
This item has been transferred from A10 as it contained an offer of payment
of 18.63p. The Negotiating Committee recommend acceptance, subject to
any increase resulting from the 1999 pay settlement being applied.
This payment was accepted and moved.
27 PASSPORT AGENCY CL PAO1
Information had been circulated with respect to the emergency situation. It
was agreed to discharge this item from the agenda though the reference will
remain on file.
28 PERSONAL BANKING
Personal Banking Services CL PB
MR PEBERDY and the GENERAL SECRETARY have received paperwork on
automatic teller machines. The Post Office are actively trying to get into
outlets, post offices and various places. There may be some urgent
discussions required with the Negotiating Committee. It is known that
multiples are looking at this.
The GENERAL SECRETARY advised that the intention is to install 3000
machines which they want to get in within 13/14 months into a more
convenient store post office which is open after hours. Discussions are
required to talk about a percentage rate. More information will be advised
when known.
MR MARSHALL advised that the Post Office are already surveying certain
post offices. MRS JERVIS expressed her concerns about CashCard's
marketing of ATMs. They are charging retailers £100 per week to have these
machines and there is a concern that subpostmasters will be taken in. The
GENERAL SECRETARY advised to warn them away from this for the time
being.
29 PAYMENT COLLECTION SERVICES CL PC
It was agreed to discharge this item.
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30 PARCELFORCE
30(a) Residential Delivery Trial CL PF 05 02
This was a trial of home shopping items. A higher payment is being pursued
on the basis that more work is involved than for normal P739 work. THE
NATIONAL PRESIDENT advised that the trial ceased on 15 October to be
brought back with national rollout according to the Post Office. MR WALSH
said if that is the case he hoped the 17.9p would be increased and Mailwork
offices would be included within the payment because they are not currently
paid for P739s.
34 ROYAL MAIL
31(a) Format Based Pricing CL RM 04
There was nothing to report.
31(b) Millennium Moments CL RM 05 06 i
The original offer for this work was 16p but the Negotiating Committee went
back and asked for £1.50. Each Millennium Moment costs £12.99. The offer !
has been increased to 18p. The Negotiating Committee wished to reject this
offer. MR BUTLIN reported that a lot of work is involved in filling out the
forms required and subpostmasters should be paid £1
The proposal to go back and try for an increase was agreed.
31(c) Royal Mail International CL RM 06 I
Tariff Changes :
I
1
It was agreed to discharge this item. I
32 UTILITIES CL UT
It was agreed to discharge this item
33. DVLA
Motor Vehicle Licences CL VL 04 02
- Proposed Changes
- Graduated Vehicle Excise Licence
The Post Office has been advised of our dissatisfaction. The Post Office
advised that the counter operation and client satisfaction was successful but
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 41
there were difficulties with client settlement and the resolution of errors. The
important thing is that the client is satisfied
- Motor Vehicle Licences - Northern Ireland
As of Monday 18 October this will be available in a total of 64 post offices in
Northern Ireland with plans to add another 2 in the New Year. It has been
deemed as a success and post offices now have 36% share of the market.
Error rates are low and operational aspects working well. There is hope for
further work. We will re-engage with POCL in negotiating the rates which are
currently interim at 32p.
MR PEBERDY advised that the Negotiating Committee are very aware of the
Courier article about DVLA. Although the Post Office have secured a longer
term contract they are committed to look to new methods which could include
the internet. Bar coded reminders are being used in Northern Ireland for car
tax. We will endeavour to get the payment up to the manual payment that
exists.
MR BRADBROOK advised that laser printed cover notes are being used
which are acceptable by DVLA in Swansea. MR DAVIS responded that this
has been raised with POCL and the instructions that exist already of not
accepting anything except the document still applies. It is not acceptable in
post offices and the client won't make it acceptable at the moment. this is
being pursued. If confirmation is received then we will take it back to POC
and DVLA.
34. WATER AUTHORITIES CL WA
It was agreed to discharge this item.
35 ORGANISATIONS
POUNC FM 00
Due to the contents of the White Paper POUNC are in the process of
changing personnel and a first meeting is awaited
36 CONFERENCE RESOLUTIONS PRIOR TO 1999
A schedule has been circulated to the Executive Council this year from
Headquarters. Mike Granville visited Shoreham to go through this. It was
thought the chart was a much better way to circulate the information rather
than a fot of correspondence. THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT asked if anyone
had any comments to raise on the chart. There were none.
MR PEBERDY moved A3.
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A/5. SUB COMMITTEE REPORTS
A) REPORT OF PUBLICITY & DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEE
MEETINGS.
MR MARSHALL, Chairman of the Publicity & Development Committee, gave
his report as follows:
1. FEDERATION MEMBERSHIP.
1(a) FEDERATION ANNUAL CONFERENCE
Conference 1999, Scarborough. FM AC 1999
MR MARSHALL's, opened his address by reporting that a discount of £1,350
(almost 6%) had been negotiated with the Royal Hotel. There are some last
loose ends to be tidied up with regard to the videos and the correct tape from {
Savilles required copying, but that was all.
Due to the staffing situation at Shoreham there had been some delay in
production of the Conference Report. However, copies had now been
circulated. As soon as the various comments and amendments received from
Officers have been incorporated into the report, it would be transmitted to the
printers
Conference 2000, Eastbourne. FM AC 2000
The matter of sponsorship had been given serious and considerable thought
at various P&D meetings. An offer of £5,000 for the Tuesday night event has
been received from Eagle Star although this offer is conditional upon the
Federation accepting a reconstruction of our agreement with them. This
matter will be addressed later in this meeting. Last year’s sponsor of the
Cocktail Reception, Nationwide, who originally indicated interest for this year
are, unfortunately, reviewing their marketing spend and have declined to offer
sponsorship again this year. It may be possible to revisit this in a later year,
but not this year.
Other organisations have shown definite interest including Girobank, and the
Co-operative Bank. However, all trading partners have been circulated with a
small brochure, listing the various aspects for which sponsorship is sought.
Offers of sponsorship will, of course, be looked at carefully before anything is
finalised.
Girobank have specifically requested to be advised of the cost of the Monday
night entertainment and are enthusiastic about idea of a race night, although
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 43
it is accepted that the approval of the Executive Council is required before
anything can be concluded.
A variety of social events had been considered by the P & D Committee.
Attendance for the traditional coach trips and been dropping in recent years
and, in some cases, would prevent people from attending other events taking
place or leave little time to prepare. Questionnaires submitted by delegates
indicated that enthusiasm for civic sponsored events appeared to be waning
and it was felt by the P & D Committee that changes could be made to the
traditional nature of some social events.
Race Night. There was a great deal of debate as to whether a suggested
‘race night’ was an acceptable form of entertainment for an established
organisation such as the Federation. While it was accepted that such
entertainment could be well run and was often used to raise money for
charity, some members would not find the gambling aspect of such an
evening agreeable. It was also pointed out that the long gaps between races
did not satisfactorily ‘fill out’ an evening and that many people may well
consider it dull. While change was not in itself a bad thing this type of
change was not generally felt to be favourable. Serious concern was
expressed by many officers as to whether a race night was the type of
evening Subpostmasters would be willing to support. It was felt by some
Executive Officers that the traditions and dignity of the Federation would be
considerably devalued. However, when a vote was taken it was agreed that
the race night should go ahead.
Following the comments received from a number of Executive Officers MR
MARSHALL requested that they offer some suggestions themselves and let
the P & D Committee know what other kinds of entertainment they would like
Tuesday Evening. This evening is being sponsored by Eagle Star and Ray
McVay and his band will provide the music for dancing. Eagle Star are happy
to leave the choice of cabaret to us and are confident that our choice will be
acceptable to them as sponsors.
Karioke. Another recommendation was to stage a Karioke night on the
Wednesday evening, perhaps at a venue outside the hotel. This event would
be properly controiled by a compare with no pressure on anyone to take part.
MR INGHAM suggested that the Karioke could be supported by an artiste
who would perform solos and fill in the flat spots, and MR EDMONDSON
suggested that the Karioke could be coupled with something else, perhaps
taking the entertainment outside the hotel.
MR HEASMAN advised the Council that discussion had taken place about
where such an event should be held. The hotel did have facilities which
could be used but the Committee felt that a more convenient venue may be
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more popular. Enquiries are being made for a multi-purpose, multi-use,
venue.
A number of the Council were reluctant to support Karioke, in particular MR
EDMONDSON and MR BUTLIN. MR EDMONDSON was also concerned
about moving Wednesday evening's entertainment out of the hotel. He
remarked that Conference often goes on longer than normal and may delay
dinner and evening preparations. If personnel have to go outside the hotel
as well as deal with reduced preparation time, they may decide not to bother
and functions do not receive full support
After an enquiry from MR BRADBROOK, MR MARSHALL confirmed there
would be no difference in the charge for room hire, in or outside the hotel for
the Karioke function.
A vote, for or against the Karioke on the Wednesday of Conference 2000,
was taken and resulted in a majority vote against
Coach Trips. Amongst ideas contributed by members a coach trip to
France was suggested. It would probably take place on the Monday from
8.00am to approximately 8.00pm and would cost between £15-£20. At the I
moment is just an idea.
It was pointed out by MR EDMONDSON that many people coming to
Conference like to be there for the start and it gives an opening boost to see
a full gallery. If people elect to go to France on the first day of Conference,
the level of support at the opening of Conference may diminish. MR
EDMONDSON felt that Monday was the wrong day to choose for a day trip
MRS REEVES feit that too much may be crammed into the time available.
For example, the support for evening events is likely to be lower after the day
trip to France as people will be tired. MR JANNETTA agreed with MRS
REEVES and MR EDMONDSON
Having clarified for the meeting that the coach trip would only be available to I
wives and families of delegates and not members who were required to
attend Conference, MRS KENDALL asked for a vote on a Monday trip to
France. This proposal was carried by majority THE GENERAL
SECRETARY did remark that in view of the current anti-French feeling, this
trip may not prove a prudent move, but it was generally felt that the situation
should be reviewed nearer the time.
Other coach trips which had also been suggested were a Sunday afternoon
trip to Beachy Head and Alfriston from 2.00pm to 5.30pm and a trip on
Tuesday afternoon through "1066 country”, also from 2.00pm to 5.30pm. It
was felt that the Tuesday trip should be kept reasonably brief in order to give
people time to prepare for the evening function with Ray McVey.
EXECUT VE COUNC!L MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 45
Name Badges Sponsorship was being sought for the conference name
badges. MR MARSHALL asked the Executive Council for their views on the
format for the badges. For example, whether or not the sponsor's name
should appear along the bottom of the badges. Following his enquiry MR
PEBERDY was assured that the Federation's logo and name would appear
on the badges. MR MORGAN-JONES expressed the view that some
members may not necessarily like to see a sponsor's name on the badges
MR BUTLIN proposed that a sample of the badge be provided for Executive
Officers’ consideration before any decision is reached. This was seconded
by MR MORGAN-JONES and carried unanimously.
Presidential Car. Continuing with his report, MR MARSHALL advised that
Nissan had agreed to provide a car for use by the President during
Conference. It was also hoped that Eagle Star would provide free insurance
Two volunteers, JOHN WILLSHAW and PETER WALSH, had come forward
to drive the Presidential car wnenever necessary during the week.
There were a number of issues which Executive Officers raised in connection
with the use of the car and the volunteer drivers. The car itself was quite
smali, although this would be economical. While the volunteer drivers should
be commended for their offer, they were asked if they had seriously and
deeply considered the matter and understood the onerous task and huge
responsibility their offer entailed. There were also insurance implications in
the plan, especially when the car was carrying visitors, and the element of
tiredness after a long day at Conference should to be heeded. MR WALSH
confirmed that both he and MR WILLSHAW were completely willing to make
this contribution to the savings on Conference expenses
THE GENERAL SECRETARY pointed out that they could find themselves
compromised with the logistics of Conference, particularly on the Wednesday
when there would be a great deal of ‘to-ing and fro-ing’ between the
Conference venue and Headquarters hotel. MR BUTLIN agreed that the
willingness to give their time and energy in a bid to save money was
admirable but he felt that a chauffeur driven car was more desirable and
would project a more dignified image of the Federation.
After further discussion had taken place, MR BUTLIN’s proposal not to accept
the Nissan and hire a professional chauffeur driven car was seconded by MR
JANNETTA and carried by majority.
Conference Video. Avcom have been selected to provide the
Conference Video at a cost of £2.000. The Co-op Bank were considering
sponsoring this.
Electronic Voting MR MARSHALL advised the Executive Council
that the question of electronic voting had been addressed and discarded as
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 46
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too expensive. One quotation states £13,500 and, although the other two
quotations have not yet been received, figures of this magnitude were
completely out of the question.
HQ Hotel. MR HEASMAN assured MR BUTLIN that the Hydro Hotel
was no further from the Conference Centre that the Royal was from the Spa
iast year. He also confirmed that they had contacted the Hotel again in an
attempted to clear the confusion regarding rates quoted to MR BURFORD
and those quoted to P&D for Conference. The rates quoted to MR
BURFORD were, apparently, provisional figures and based on 1998 rates.
MR HEASMAN continued that the rate is, in fact. £60 per person per night,
which includes dinner, bed and breakfast. MRS KENDALL asked if this figure
included single occupancy of a double room and was advised that the rate for
this was £75.00
So far as the rate charged for partners accompanying Executive Officers, MR
HEASMAN indicated that he would leave that to the Federation's Treasurer,
Finance Manager and General Secretary to decide an appropriate rate.
Following a number of questions regarding the quality and service at the
hotel, MR HEASMAN confirmed that he had only heard good reports about
the hotel. It was family run, the food was good and it had an excellent local
reputation. He was expecting to attend a function there in the near future and
would be able to report back on the quality of facilities. i
Broaching the subject of extra rooms, MR EDMONDSON asked MR
HEASMAN what the situation is. MR HEASMAN advised that there were two
organisations at the hotel at the same time, ourselves and a Bridge Group.
Our booking requirements currently totalled 37 rooms and there were
precious few other rooms available
Car parking does not present a problem as besides a car park provided, there
is plenty of on-street parking available which is considered safe.
Conference 2001 _- Llanduddno. FM AC 2001
Three hotels had been visited with a view to arranging accommodation for
Conference 2001 in Llanduddno. These were the Imperial, St Georges and
the Empire. St Georges was not very good. Despite the fact that they were
aware of the reason for the visit, service was poor and the group were most
disappointed and the Imperial hotel did not appear to be interested in doing
business with the group.
MR EDMONDSON expressed puzzlement at the fal! in standards at St
Georges and indicated that he was quite impressed last time. He wondered
why standards and fallen so much. MR MARSHALL believed it was lack of
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 47
trained staff who displayed a “couldn't care jess” attitude. Considering the
staff were aware of the reason for their visit no real effort was made. He and
MR HEASMAN were not impressed and would not recommend it.
Although the Empire hotel is much smalier (we could take it over completely)
the group were made most welcome and the service and facilities seemed
much better. The P&D Committee strongly recommend this hotel for
Conference 2001. It is situated just off the front on the far side of Llanduddno
with a short walk to the Conference Centre.
It was agreed that the P&D Committee should investigate further, negotiate
rates with the Empire Hotel for Conference 2001 and make a provisional
booking.
Training of Branch Secretaries. FMMS 04
Proposals for the training of Branch Secretaries had already been circulated
with an indication of the preferred programme. It was felt that the programme
deserved full support and MR PEBERDY pointed out that the onus was on
the Executive Officers to make sure Branch Secretaries received proper
training. Acceptance of this will also satisfy the 97/98 Conference Motion.
After it was decided that the suggested programme would be adopted for the
training of Branch Secretaries, MR MARSHALL requested feedback from
Executive Offices of how the training programmes were working around the
various regions. In this respect, the P&D Committee could review and
improve the scheme in the light of any comments or practical hints provided
by Executive Offices. MR BAKER also undertook to contact Peter Abrahams
in connection with this training
2(b) MEMBERSHIP FM MS
Following on from the last P& D Meeting, MRS JENKINS had requested to
visit Shoreham in order to observe how Membership was dealt with. An
arrangement was made but, she was disappointed to learn during a
telephone call on another matter, that Lisa Saunders would not be at HQ on
the day of her visit. In the event she was made most welcome and Andrew
Watts was able to take her through anything she needed to know. The
results of her enquiry were deeply disturbing. There was no information from
HRSAPS regarding new members since June 1999. The membership
programme in HQ’s computer is not currently doing the job required and
although Miller Technology are still working on the problems, resolution does
not yet seem to be at hand. MRS JENKINS told the Committee that the
Membership Programme at Shoreham needs updating and HRSAPS must
been chased for up to date information. ROY EDMONDSON has confirmed
that some money is coming in from HRSAPS but, at the present time, there is
no knowledge of what it represents.
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 48
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DECISION
DECISIC y
om
MR CHALLINOR remarked that he had visited Shoreham approximately two
years ago and it did not sound as though any progress had been made with
the Membership System since then. MR CHALLINOR and MR MARSHALL
both questioned whether the problems can be resolved and what is presently
being done to overcome the difficulties.
MR BURFORD advised that it was the intention of the Federation Trustees to
visit Shoreham the following week to investigate the problems in fine detail
and to find a way forward.
So far as HRSAPS is concerned, THE GENERAL SECRETARY advised the
meeting that had promised to send a disk giving the up to date membership
position at the End of September. He had reported this to the Federation
Trustees at their earlier meeting, but said there had since been a suspicion
that this disk holds only the end of June figures and does not update anything
to September. If this were the case the hole in the middle, end June to the
present, would not be recoverable. In any event the format on the disk is
Excel (a very basic universal programme) and the computer system at
Federation HQ is unable to access it! HRSAPS would be requested to
provide a disk with a format that could be used at HQ so that the information
could be obtained
It is essential that the problems with the membership system are resolved at
the earliest possible time. Membership cards are now ready to be put on the
system. The intention is the review the card every three years. Annual
renewals and those paying by Direct Debit would be reviewed every year.
However, progress on this is being thwarted at every turn because we are
relying on POCL for the information we require.
Federation Trustees have interviewed another systems company who are
willing and able to replace the existing system, but a complete change at this
point is an enormous decision. There is a huge amount of good and hard
work being done by the Membership Office. New members’ mandates are
arriving at Shoreham but what cannot be established is when, or whether,
HRSAPS have commenced collecting the money. How the true position can
be established has not yet been resolved.
MR PEBERDY confirmed that HQ needs a system which could is compatible
with our outside contacts so that fax attachments and disks can be accessed
successfully. He advised the meeting that none of the suggested equipment
or upgrades were nearly as expensive as one might first think. He also
stated that the Federation should receive membership deductions dating from
the date of the mandate and not from the time HR Service Centre started to
deduct the money from Subpostmasters.
It was pointed out by MR JANNETTA that it might be a good idea to consult
the UCW and CMA to ascertain whether their subscriptions are were paid
correctly. The current position being suffered by the Federation is totally
unacceptable.
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 49
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A good deal of discussion took place regarding the inadequacies of the
present computer system, but it was understood that conservation of funds
was important and, at the moment, the upgrade appeared to provide all the
attributes necessary. However, Federation Trustees would examine the
current position with the system and the financial implications, and obtain
further quotations to cover all the perceived system requirements at HQ. It
was agreed that the Trustees would review and discuss requirements and
report back with their recommendations
MR MARSHALL reminded Executive Officers that a previous Executive
Council meeting had given leave for the P&D Committee to investigate the
charges for a professional sales organisation to set about the task of selling
Federation Membership. Their system was based on persistence, similar to
that adopted in Northern Ireland, with repetitive contact by telephone and by
letter. Marot's suggested one-off charge is £50 for the higher and £40 for the
lower fee membership which equates to the Federation surrendering most of
the first year’s membership fee gains would be made in years 2, 3 and 4,
ongoing. MR MARSHALL continued that the way forward now is to agree this
in principle. For anybody to work a system like this quality information is
required and, heeding the current situation with HR Service Centre, we will
not be able to fulfil this as well as we might like. If the idea is agreed in
principle, some progress could be made but nothing confirmed until further
information is available.
The legality under data protection was questioned by MR MORGAN-JONES,
who also remarked that he would be interested to see how the proposal
would work on a ‘no win no fee’ basis. In pointing out that the Federation are
having little success with encouraging new members MR MORGAN-JONES
suggested Marot might.
As some Subpostmasters were not aware of the benefits of being members,
MR BUTLIN pointed out the need for a "parrot pack”. He queried who would
prepare the script for Marot to use and who is going to list the advantages
and benefits membership offers. MR INGHAM felt that the Federation had
nothing to lose and everything to gain from further investigation of this
venture. He suggested that the P&D Committee should be relied on to sort
out all the problems and proceed with the project.
MR PEBERDY’s reservations were that Marot would attack this issue with
their high pressure sales force and in some way damage the Federation's
image. Close attention must be paid to the methods used and the tone of the
campaign. MR EDMONDSON expressed his concern that once the Branch
Secretaries learned of this outside campaign for members, the motivation at
Branch level may be diminished, and he hoped a combination of the two
would succeed. A good deal of further discussion covering this issue took
place, with Committee Member expressing concerns about sales methods,
wording of ‘scripts’ and the advantages/disadvantages of using an outside
operator for sourcing new membership. Some present held the view that the
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Federation had an obligation to process this matter themselves and that
officers should go out into the regions and motivate people
Moving ahead with this project was the important thing, and MR MARSHALL DECISION
reassured the Executive Council that Christopher Marot himself was handling [action I
it. He suggested that when all the appropriate information was available,
scripts would be prepared and a trial could take place. There was unanimous
agreement from the Council that the project should be moved ahead and
more detailed information obtained.
2(c) FEDERATION PUBLICATIONS
Subpostmasters’ Handbook. FM PB 02
Due to the reorganisation of the Post Office and the resultant changes, it
would not be possible to publish the handbook as planned. MR MARSHALL
suggested that it is retained in its present form and updated as soon as the
new information is available. It was suggested that, in the interim period, a
Branch Secretaries’ Circular be issued with amendments to Rules and any
other basic changes. it was suggested that a Branch Secretaries’ Circular be FACTION
issued with all information required to keep them up to date and to bring out
the Handbook as soon as the fine details of the new Post Office organisation
are to hand. This course of action was agreed unanimously.
2(d) FEDERATION PROMOTION & PUBLICITY
Sub Post Office Exhibition FM PP 01
The Exhibition was reported as a huge success with the Federation's stand
receiving 2% thousand visitors, 78 people took part in the Treasure Hunt and
the winner will be announced in the next edition of the Journal
MR BUTLIN offered his congratulations for a successful venture, and asked
what the financiai position is and how the Federation currently stood with Pan
Presentations. It was confirmed that Pan Presentations’ back liability to the
Federation was completely clear and only the recent exhibition was now
outstanding. A ‘egal document had been suggested by Paul Webster which
would protect the Federation if ne experienced future difficulties. He had
provided a letter which would give the Federation leave to take over the
exhibition should he fail. MR HEASMAN assured the committee that while
the Federation would not wish to take responsibility for the exhibition, they
would want the right to decide which company should have the responsibility
of running the exhibition, The letter would be passed to the Federation’s
legal advisors for their examination:
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 51
MRS KENDALL congratulated the Executive Officers who attended the
Federation stand and thanked them for their long hours and hard work. She
said they had done a magnificent job and should be weil applauded.
At this juncture, MR INGHAM excused himself from the meeting to attend to
important business matters. He announced that he hoped to exchange
contracts on his premises the following day, and would then be tendering his
resignation as an Executive Officer at the January 2000 EC meeting.
Caring for the Customer Campaign. FM PP 04
Posters
MR MARSHALL continued his address by advising the Executive Council that
the posters for the “Stroking the Customer” campaign, and the “Did you
Know?” cards had all gone out on time. 80 re-orders had been received.
MR PEBERDY commented that a number of visitors to the exhibition stand
had expressed the view that the A4 posters might have achieved better
impact if sized A3. However, MR MARSHALL responded that it was a
question of cost and the fact that all the Post Office posters were sized A4.
Mr Marshall went on to say that the P&D Committee would be revisiting this,
with a view to using the Journal to distribute A3 posters as a centrefold
With regard to the suggested J Walter Thompson campaign, THE GENERAL
SECRETARY advised that, although the budget allowed was quite generous,
the costs of distributing posters and cards etc., was quite phenomenal.
Paper for the posters alone would cost about £60,000 exclusive of printing
and photography. The postage involved would also be inordinately
expensive. A meeting was being arranged with J Walter Thompson to
explore where compromises could be made and costs reduced.
3. CONFERENCE RESOLUTIONS.
Work has begun on the Conference Resolutions. {in connection with
Resolution 99/94 which dealt with the time taken by Executive Officers
responding to a motion, investigations carried out by MR HEASMAN
indicated that the average time was 2% minutes. Asked by MR BUTLER if
the Ayes had been included as well as the Oppose, MR HEASMAN confirmed
that the Ayes had not been included in his calculations.
99/98 Resolution concerned the organisation of fringe meetings outside
conference hours. The P&D Committee believed it may be acceptable to
have Branch Secretaries’ meetings, say, at lunchtimes, beginning at next
year's conference. It really depended what the members want. THE
GENERAL SECRETARY stressed that the motion requested the Executive
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Council to consider and report back on the introduction of fringe meetings I
He was be alarmed to find people being invited to address Conference. THE
GENERAL SECRETARY’s second concern was that the correspondence had
not originated from Federation Headquarters and if this escalates HQ will not
know what is going on and who is writing to who. Agreement must be
reached on an appropriate way to proceed and it was generally agreed that I
such correspondence should be dealt with centrally under the Headquarters I
banner.
MR WILLSHAW said he had written to ACR and CPRE to ask if they would i
be prepared to speak, but fully accepted the procedure laid down. He did not !
feel that any relationships had been damaged by his action, but apologised if
he stepped on any toes. The response from his contacts would come through
him directly to the Executive Council.
MR MORGAN-JONES supported THE GENERAL SECRETARY’s view that
Executive Officers should not write out inviting people to Conference.
Invitations should be issued by Federation Headquarters on a national basis
MRS KENDALL drew the attention of the meeting to the actual Conference
Motion we instructed the Executive Council to report back next year with
recommendations. After earlier discussions with THE GENERAL
SECRETARY, MR MARSHALL felt that it had been resolved, and asked the
Executive Council whether they preferred to start branch meetings this year
or respond to the motion only.
MR MORGAN-HONES felt that answering the motion, as put to Conference,
was the most important thing. He suggested that the response should say
“consideration has been given and we are pleased to tell you that fringe
meetings are acceptable”, and see how members want to take this further.
THE GENERAL SECRETARY queried whether the meetings would be
arranged by the Executive Council, whether rooms would need to be
arranged, and whether literature would need to be supplied. MR
BRADBROOK was of the opinion that as Conference was controlied by the I
Executive Council through the Federation, approval for any fringe meetings at I
Conference should aiso be approved by the Executive Council. He continued i
by saying that Conference is for members, and if members want to arrange I
fringe meetings they should be free to do so with the Executive Council's co- i
operation. MR MORGAN-JONES felt that “fringe meeting” was a undefined
term and questioned whether the meetings would be of use to the Federation
as a whole. He felt that if some of the people could be persuaded to speak at
fringe meetings it could be extremely helpful and might assist the
Subpostmasters’ fight for the future.
A proposal was put by MR MORGAN-JONES that branch meetings should be
permitted at next year's Conference and seconded by MR BRADBROOK.
MR BUTLIN suggested an amendment to restrict the meetings at first to
Branch Secretaries and ask them what they and their members want. MR
WILLSHAW however, believed that the motion was put forward just to test
EXECUTIVE COUNCK MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 53
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whether fringe meetings were available. Reaction to the reality of meetings
would need to be sought and he suggested a meeting with the P&D
Committee and Branch Secretaries first. This was considered to be
acceptable and was agreed unanimously.
I
I
4, FUTURE DATES & VENUES OF EC MEETINGS.
MR MARSHALL advised Council members that the Abbey Hotel had been
extremely slow to respond to the Federation’s request for our usual
accommodation for the March 2000 Executive Council meeting. After taking
so long to reply they have informed us that they have accepted another
booking and cannot, therefore, fulfil our requirements.
A provision booking has been made with West Mead Hotel in Birmingham as
an alternative. MRS JENKINS and MRS JERVIS have both visited the West
Mead and found it acceptable and other Council members may already be
familiar with it.
o>~
A general discussion took place with regard to the prevailing deterioration of
standards at the Abbey Hotel. Apart from dropping standards of service, the
fact that the Federation had patronised the hotel regularly for more than 25
years appears not to be significant to the present owners. For the present
visit, use of the function room had been charged at £150 for the evening,
whereas in the past this had been provided free, balanced out by the extra
income received by the hotel from the bar.
The Publicity & Development Committee had been looking at other hoteis
with a view to changing altogether and excommunicating The Abbey. It was
generally felt that after so many years business with the Federation The
Abbey management should have had the courtesy to advise us they were
considering another booking at a time we usually book
Discussion took place on the benefits/advantages of finding a new venue for DECISION
Executive Council meetings, and it was decided that the P & D Committee be action.
empowered to investigate and trial other hotels. .
5. OTHER MATTERS.
5(a) TRAINING FOR BRANCH SECRETARIES. FN NS 04
Proceeding with his report MR MARSHALL reminded the Council that some
long time ago media training for Council members was discussed, PAUL
HEASMAN confirmed this was referred from an Executive Council meeting in
June 1996. The recommendation at that time was that the General
Secretary, Assistant General Secretaries, Chairman of the Negotiating
E COUCH, MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 54
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Committee and Chairman of the P&D Committee should receive media
training. As it was close to the elections for Executive Officers it was
expected that the aforementioned training would be followed by similar
training for all those elected to the Executive Council.
The P&D Committee were now looking to update this and has ascertained
that the current cost is £1,400 plus VAT and plus mileage at 32p per mile. In
addition a cameraman and interviewer for half a day would amount to an
extra £150, MR MARSHALL asked the Council whether they wished to
proceed with the trial. He clarified the content of the trial by advising the
Council officers that usually an interview was undertaken, then the tape
replayed while pointing out all the defects. Then the interview was re-done,
incorporating the improvements made, including dress, stance, presentation
etc.
MR CYRIL JONES asked if professional training companies had been
considered as an alternative to Tim Cobb carrying out the training. MR
MARSHALL confirmed that no other company had been contemplated as Tim
Cobb was the most cost effective.
A proposal that the provision of training and costs be looked into further was
agreed.
5(b) CHARITY DONATION
£1,600 had been donated by branches prior to the Centenary Appeal. This DECISION i
was as a direct result of John Brennan's announcement in 1993. It was felt I
inappropriate to donate it to the Macmilian/Childrens’ Hospital Fund as that
was not the purpose for which it was given. However, no alternative has
been decided and nothing has yet been done with it. It had been suggested
that the least controversial route would be to transfer the money to the
Federation's Benevolent Fund and that this would require the Executive
Council’s agreement. MR PEBERDY remarked that this was a wonderful
gesture and asked if the money had, specifically, to go to a charity or whether
it could be put back into Federation funds to replace the losses of £98,000
incurred during the Centenary celebrations
MRS JERVIS offered her opinion that the money was intended to go to some
kind of charity. MR PEBERDY then suggested that Mr Brennan be contacted
for his preference. This recommendation was seconded by MR BUTLIN. MR
BAKER added, (very tongue in cheek), that if the money went into the
Benevolent Fund and contributed to the cost of computer equipment for Head
Office, the money would still be going to a charity! In spite of the jocularity, it
was decided that Mr Brennan's choice would be sought with regard to the
final destination of the money.
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 55
5(c) HELPLINE
MR EDMONDSON recalled that since June a paper had been received from
Central Personal Register Services quoting a new, increased contract price.
This was identified as being under reference A/5 - FM MS 06 - Federation
Helpline.
There was a great deal of discussion regarding the Helpline and its perceived
benefits. Some Executive Officers had grave reservations about this service
and suggested it be closed down. Others preferred to ascertain the level of
use first. If use is low then the help proves costly. It was also pointed out
that the Helpline is offered as a Membership benefit. It was accepted that
some good advice is given by the Helpline but that more and more enquiries
are being referred back to Federation Headquarters. At the outset, other
Helpline services were considered, but were too costly and it was felt that
perhaps negotiation with Mr Abrahams may prove profitable. A number of
Executive Officers felt that the Federation could not do without the Helpline
as there will always be some enquiries. it was felt that Mr Abrahams may be
making a mountain out of a molehill with regard to the volume of enquiries
handled.
The Executive Council agreed that THE GENERAL SECRETARY should
negotiate with Peter Abrahams and report back to them, or take whatever
action is necessary to relieve the pressure.
THE GENERAL SECRETARY confirmed that comparisons between helplines
had already been made and the present arrangement was the most cost
effective. He proposed that Mr Abranams be invited to Federation HQ to talk
about the issues of concern and the proposed increase in fee. The meeting
agreed that this course of action would be preferable.
B) FEDERATION TRUSTEES REPORT
Standing to present his first report as Chairman to the Federation Trustees,
MR MIKE BURFORD recorded as follows:-
The Federation Trustees meeting on Sunday evening had been chaired by
THE GENERAL SECRETARY, as a new Chairman needed to be elected
following the resignation of Mr Abernethy.
The first item on the agenda for the meeting was the election of a
replacement Chairman and, following the appropriate vote, it was agreed that
MR MIKE BURFORD be elected Chairman of the Federation Trustees.
Prior to proceeding to the main agenda, the Trustees placed on record their
sincere thanks for the many years of loyal and valuable service that Mr
Abernethy had given, both to the Federation and to the Trustees. His
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DECISION
ACTION
DECISION
PETE -
ACTION
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thoughtful guidance as Chairman of the Federation Trustees was very much
respected and appreciated.
MR BURFORD continued by reporting that the Minutes of the meeting of
Federation Trustees held on the 21st June 1999 were approved and
accepted at the meeting, with no matters arising.
Property.
THE GENERAL SECRETARY had reported to the Trustees on property
matters, in particular the situation with regard to the membership system.
Steady progress was being made with regard to Miller Technology. The
ISDN lines had now been instailed at Shoreham and a router would be
delivered in the very near future. The installation of this equipment will
enable Miller to work on the Federation’s system from their own office in
London, ensuring that work proceeds more quickly and problems rectified i
more promptly. I
Membership Card.
THE GENERAL SECRETARY had also been able to report to the Trustees
that work was well advanced on a new membership card that would be
reissued to everybody and then to new members as they join. The intention
is that the card will have a 3-year life, but with annual members continuing to
be reviewed on an annual basis.
MR HEASMAN had reported that he had attended a meeting with Eagle
Star/Zurich on Thursday last, when the possibility of their advertising on the
membership card was discussed. This would be in the same mode as their
advertisement on the previously issued membership card.
Membership System
It was also reported by THE GENERAL SECRETARY that the problems being
experienced with HR Service Centre in Manchester were also affecting the
membership records held at Shoreham. No new figures had been received
from them since June 1999. HR Service Centre had agreed to provide a
‘snapshot’ of the October figures, but were unable to promise any recovery of
the gap between June 99 and October 99.
Headquarters’ Computers
Progress on the proposals to upgrade the entire computer system at
Shoreham were also reported to the Trustees, but MR BURFORD advised
the Executive Council that further quotations were still awaited. The Trustees
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 pace 57
would be reviewing the matter further during their visit to Shoreham later this
month.
Headquarters’ Telephone System.
MR BURFORD continued his address by advising Executive Officers of THE
GENERAL SECRETARY'S further report to the Trustees that the telephone
system at Shoreham was now more than ten years old and needed replacing.
It lacked a number of modern time/cost saving features more modern systems
have incorporated and, in any case the system itself did not have the capacity
to cope with the vast traffic of calls which now run in and out of Headquarters
ona daily basis.
Headquarters’ Redecoration.
With the exception of one room all the redecoration at Shoreham had been
completed. The Federation Trustees intended to inspect the work during
their visit later in the month
Treasurers’ Report
The Treasurer to the Trustees, MR ROY EDMONDSON, had reported to the
meeting that financial matters were reasonably steady with no unexpected
events having occurred. However, MR EDMONDSON had expressed
considerable concern with the situation had HR Service Centre because,
without reliable information on membership levels and subscriptions, it was
not possible to budget accurately. However, he was optimistic that a break-
even position would be achieved by the end of the year.
Investment Portfolio.
Federation Trustees had been advised by the Broker not to change the
portfolio at this time. The Trustees had accepted the advice given.
Insurance.
The Trustees had reviewed aspects of the Federation Insurance policies and
recommend no increase in the Public Liability cover for community offices.
This decision had been reached, principally, in the light that no claim had
ever beer made on this policy.
However, in the light of rising costs for medical attention, transportation etc.,
the Trustees did agree to increase the insurance cover for Executive Officers
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 58
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and Secretariat to provide for payments of up to £400 per week (currently
£300) and capital benefits of £150,000 (currently £125,000).
It was also agreed that Insurance cover on Evelyn House should be reviewed
and new valuations would be obtained
Vacancy for Trustee. !
One final item of business for the Federation Trustees was to advise the I
Executive Council of the vacancy for a trustee, following the departure of Mr i
Abernethy
Both MR WALSH and MR BUTLIN were nominated as Trustees and,
following a vote from Executive Officers, MR WALSH was appointed as the
new Federation Trustee.
MR BURFORD moved the report of the Federation Trustees and the report DECISION}
was accepted.
MR PEBERDY brought to the attention of the Executive Council that,
following his election as Chairman to the Federation Trustees, MR
BURFORD would automatically become a member of the General Purposes
Committee.
C) BOARD OF BENEVOLENCE REPORT.
MRS REEVES, the North Thames & East Anglia delegate had been
welcomed to her first meeting replacing Mr Burrows.
MR PEBERDY, advised that a paper had been studied and discussion had
taken place on the advice received from the broker on the Portfolio of
Investments. Investments of £102,000 from the Portfolio had been sold and
reinvestments made amounting to £96,000. £6,000 was being held on
interest by our brokers for the next transactions. No further movement was
recommended at the present time
The Trustees did consider the cash being held in bank accounts and had
decided to move £25,000 from the Girobank High Interest Account (holding
£92,017.92 at 7th October) into the NSB Treasurer's Account which attracts a
higher interest.
At a previous meeting of the Board of Benevolence it had been suggested
that the Benchmarks should be increased. This matter had been studied
carefully and the Board had decided that the benchmarks should be
increased from £73.50 to £75.00 for a single person, from £120.50 to £125.00
for a married couple and from £22.50 to £25.00 for each dependent child
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 59
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the amounts from £80 per adult and £50 for each dependent child had been
The Christmas Gift figures had also been reappraised and a decision to raise
reached.
Total grants of £5.103,00 had been allocated to 18 cases and the en bloc list
for the 9 weeks to January totalled £3,582.00.
It was reported that the Board of Benevolence were not currently receiving
subs from HR Service Centre and subs were not being printed out on pay
slips. MR PEBERDY suggested that Post Office Counters (who appear to
have made the error) be requested to write to each Subpostmaster sending a
Board of Benevolence Donation form. This could have the effect of
encouraging new members as well as revitalising existing donors.
MR PEBERDY continued is address by saying that he and THE GENERAL
SECRETARY had recently attended the Association of Charities Annual
Dinner but had not found it as useful as they had hoped
Before closing MR PEBERDY expressed his wish to place on record his, and ¢
the Board of Benevolence's, sincere appreciation and thanks for the many
years of loyalty and hard work Israel Abernethy had given to the Board, and
the care with which his deliberations had been taken.
In moving the report of the Board of Benevolence, MR PEBERDY sought DECISION
ratification from the Executive Council for the decisions taken by the Board in OT
respect of the Investment Portfolio, the increase in benchmark levels and the
increase in Christmas gift amounts. The Report was moved and the
decisions ratified by the Council.
D) CENTENARY CHARITIES.
It was agreed that this item be discharged from the Agenda
A/6. SPECIAL MATTERS
A) MEMBERSHIP
(i) Membership Statistics. FIMR 04
THE GENERAL SECRETARY expressed the view that this subject had
been given a full airing under AS and that there was not much else that
could be added. Therefore, no discussion under this heading took
place.
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 60
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(ii) Propaganda Reports. FM OG 05
Concern over the North West North Wales Regional Report was
expressed by MR PEBERDY particularly where the report says “many
grass roots subpostmasters seem to feel that the Fed is unable to
defend their interests. They have a perception that the Fed allows the
Post Office to ride roughshod over them. Until we find some means of
effectively disabusing them of this impression, apathy will persist and
membership will continue to decline”.
MR MORGAN JONES pointed out that while it was always difficult to
comment on what someone else has written, he did not feel that the
views expressed were a generality. He believed that this disillusioned
view was due to one specific Retail Network Manager in one particular
area where there was a grave situation currently under investigation.
MR MORGAN JONES agreed to take this away and make further
enquiries. MRS KENDALL submitted, and it was agreed, that Mr
McMahon be written to on behalf of the Executive Council asking how
these ideas are manifesting themselves and requesting his ideas on
ways to disabuse these damaging views.
B) FINANCE AND TREASURER’S REPORT
(I) Treasurer's Report. FI AC 02
MR EDMONDSON presented his report as follows
Conference 99.
Initially the contribution for Wives’ accommodation of £65 was reduced
to £60. Because of the poor service a decision was taken later not to
charge more than £45 a night. Since that time, MR HEASMAN had
agreed a reduction in the hotel's bill of £1,350 and it is now suggested
that the charge for wives’ accommodation be settled £40. As most of
these had not yet been billed, it would present few problems. Those
who had already paid will receive a refund cheque in due course.
Continuing, MR EDMONDSON advised that there nad been the normal
expenses in running the Federation since the last meeting in June. There
had been extra expenses for staff recruitment along with legal expenses for
legal advice connected with the Tribunal,
It was hopeful that there would be sufficient funds for the Federation to be in
surplus by the 31st December 1999. However, HR Services was still a
problem and the accounts could not be properly balanced until they had
sorted out the problems with subscriptions. In the meantime, HR Services
would continue to be pursued for proper figures reconciliation of the figures
EXECUTIVE COUNCi. MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 61
(ii) Management Accounts to end Sept 99.
The notes attached to these are extremely comprehensive. There is
nothing which is not covered by these notes. MR EDMONDSON told
the Council that he and the other Federation Trustees were meeting
with the Broker next week to ensure that the Federation's portfolio is
working to the best of its potential
(iii) Composite Branch Reports
MRS JENKINS asked if all the composite branch reports had now
been received. The last letter from PHILIP BLOOR and indicated that
Barnstaple’s was still outstanding. MR EDMONDSON was unabie to
confirm this without checking, but as accounts had been prepared he
assumed that this was now in.
In any event, MR EDMONDSON was very optimistic about the year end
results and requested his report be moved. This was agreed
C) JOURNAL
MR PEBERDY said that having heard the report MISS LONDON had read to
us, he was saddened to see the comments at the end of the report which
gave her resignation as Editor, He did not want MISS LINDON to leave the
meeting today with the impression that the Executive Council had been
critical of her in any way. MR PEBERDY asked MISS LONDON if the two
things contained in the report were a flow-through of each other. Was MISS
LINDON withdrawing as Editor because of the criticism she felt she had
received from the Executive Council or was it that she just did not want to do
it any more. MISS LINDON response indicated that she though it had been
accepted as it was. What occurred at the June meeting was the catalyst
which made her reconsider her own involvement. She felt that due to
pressure of work and other outside pressures she was unable to meet her
own standards for the improvement of the journal. MISS LINDON accepted
that she should have produced a report for the last meeting but, having
returned from holiday the day before the meeting there had not been
sufficient time. MISS LINDON said she was not happy to continue to “get by
on a wing and a prayer” and it was in the Federation's best interests that
someone else is considered. She had quite made up her mind not to seek re-
election in May. This would give ample time to look about in the Regions for
her successor.
MR PEBERDY expressed his disappointment at MISS LINDON’s decision
and hastened to assure MISS LINDON that no criticism was intended. He
promised that everyone in the room understood the pressures and demands
made on Officers. The Journal has been considerably improved under MISS
LINDON’s editorship and appreciation and thanks were offered to MISS
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 62
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LINDON for all the work she has done. MR PEBERDY was extremely sorry
that MISS LINDON had made up her mind so strongly.
MR BUTLIN allied himself to MR PEBERDY's comments, and felt that his
remarks reflected the feelings of the other Executive Officers. MISS
LINDON's integrity and honesty were beyond reproach. MR BUTLIN thanked
MISS LINDON for all her help and advice and said he personally was very
sorry indeed to see MISS LINDON relinquish her post as Editor. She would
be very sadly missed.
MR JANNETTA recalled that MISS LINDON was in the ‘chair’ we he joined
the Executive Council and he was extremely said to see her go. He also
revealed that he hoped that MISS LINDON would reconsider her decision
and wished her very good luck
MRS KENDALL took responsibility for the remarks made bringing about MISS
LINDON’s decision to resign, and expressed her deep regret. She felt her
comments were fair at the time as a written report is expected at each
meeting. However, no offence was meant and she was extremely sorry for
the pain caused.
MISS LINDON requested the report be moved and the Executive Council DECISION!
agreed.
D) TRADING
(i) New terms for the continuation of the Eagle Star/Zurich Insurance j
Scheme.
MR HEASMAN informed the meeting that it has been his intention to go
through the two circulated papers in detail but, in the interest of saving time,
he would refer mainly to the second paper which was circulated on the 15th
October where certain suggestions were made on page three MR 1
HEASMAN’s recommendation was that the Federation’s relationship with
Eagle Star/Zurich was maintained and that the profit share option be
accepted. In addition, he suggested accrual instalments rather than a lump
sum up front for the payments for pension and investments commission.
It was pointed out that because of financial regulations, the authority to
introduce people to the scheme was vested in MR HEASMAN personally and
he would need to resign that position with Eagle Star and accept a similar
position with Allied Dunbar,
It was confirmed by MR HEASMAN that Zurich Insurance and Eagle Star
have joined together to become Zurich Financial Services but that they had
decided to market the Home and House policies under the name Eagle Star.
Most of the people there used to work for Zurich and cross discounts would
apply
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 63
MR PEBERDY asked whether it was perceived that the new arrangement
would generate the same commission as the old arrangement, and MR
HEASMAN suggested that commission could be significantly better.
After further discussion, it was decided that the Federation would remain with
Eagle Star/Zurich.
The options available for the payment of commission are:-
(I) Receive fiat rate for the amount overall.
(ii) Slightly lower rate but built-in growth & profit shire.
The second option was accepted.
Under the financial regulations an unqualified financial advisor and can only
work for one company at a time and can only introduce one company’s
products. MR HEASMAN will therefore resign from Eagle Star and join Allied
Dunbar, and that commission be paid to the Federation using the accrual
method
A/7 CONFERENCE RESOLUTIONS PRIOR 1999
No report. None notified. THE GENERAL SECRETARY confirmed that a
schedule had been circulated. It is understood that the Conference
Resolutions are being correlated in Gavrelie House with the action they
intend to take. A reply from Post Office Counters is awaited
A/8. CONFERENCE RESOLUTIONS 1999
No report.
A/9 MOTIONS TO THE EXECUTIVE COUNCIL
MR WALSH read his deposition to the Council as follows:-
Madam President:
Thank you for allowing me to put this motion to the Executive
Council. The motion states “In view of recent events, there
should be a review of the cycle and frequency of Executive
Council Meetings’.
I have felt that the calendar of EC meetings has not been
entirely understandable to the uninitiated but, as my first year on
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the Executive has gone on, it has become slightly more
reasoned as to their timing, if not their content. However, the
events over the last few weeks have highlighted to me the
difficulties posed by such a long gap between the June and
October meetings.
The structure of our meetings is such that a large proportion of
the time is taken up with historical items that do little to further
the cause of our members and, consequently, drastically reduce
the amount of time available for such positive action.
Madam President, the reason I initially feit I ought to put this
motion was not for the best of motives. I originally wanted to put
the motion forward because I was cross. Yes, it's had to believe
that I am able to have such emotions, but I wasn't just cross I
from a personal point of view. The recent brickbats that have {
been thrown at the Federation with regard to the Minimum
Wage Tribunal and Working Times Directives, and apparent
lack of action to keep the Benefits Agency work, made me
VERY cross. - not just personally but for the whole of this
Executive Council and for everyone at Shoreham. There is a
need for us as an Executive to be more proactive in the way we
deal with situations like the Working Time Directive and
Industrial Tribunal cases. The system of modern
communications now means that the rumours and malicious
stories can be spread rapidly and we are not in 4 position to
refute them.
My anger lies with the frustration that the majority of us have
been unable to express any views to the whole of this Council or
have the opportunity to hear the opinions of the others in debate ;
around this table. This cannot be in the best interests of the I
members of our Federation. I
To use an analogy from the second greatest game, we seem to
have an overworked back four that have to soak up constant
attacks from the opposition, and our midfield and strikers rarely
see the ball and do not have the opportunity to break out from
defence to score against the run of play. We should give
ourselves increased opportunities to improve the teamwork,
especially as away goals often count double. The only real way
to improve teamwork is to have the team together more often so
they are in better formation to deal with opposition forwards.
We shouldn't always be on the defensive.
The EC meeting in January takes place some 8 weeks before
the March one. That in turn is approximately 8 weeks from the
next gathering of the EC at Conference. 5 weeks later, the mid-
June meeting takes place - so in the first 25 weeks of the year
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 65
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there are three opportunities for the Executive to congregate.
The October meeting is scheduled in week 42 of the year which
is more than double the time gap than between the earlier
meetings of the year. This means that in the first 25 weeks of
the year we meet three times and in the last 27 weeks of the
year we meet once. This to me does not seem to be the most
sensible utilisation of available time.
Let's look at the pay negotiations - how many times have you as
an Executive known the pay details to have been sorted out
before June? How many times have the Christmas
arrangements been debated in the October meeting and its
been too late to input anything?
! would like to quote the General Secretary from his Monday
dissertation:
“There have been White Water rapids since June ..........". ¢
Why is it that we have not met until October?
We all need the opportunity to obtain as much information as we
can and to listen to reasoned discussion around that
information. Shoreham needs us all to be as well informed as
themselves and also to have the chance to hear such
discussions. We cannot help them without this and vice versa,
so up to date detail is vital to such discussion and older data
therefore reduces the effectiveness of the decision making
process. It is essential that we are much more proactive and
that is not possible with the schedule of meeting we have at
present
I understand that the orange paper could easily cause some
difficulties with democracy. The idea that “Silence is assent’, I .
find quite unacceptable. There are many reasons why replies €
are not able to be given to orange papers and this could lead to :
a potentially undemocratic decision. For instance, with a
straight Yes or No situation, if six members respond in the
negative the Ayes would than win by default as “Silence is
assent’. Greater frequency of meetings would improve the
democratic process and reduce the need for orange papers to
be circulated. This is unfair on Shoreham and puts them under
unnecessary pressure.
We must show a professional front to the whole world and any
management of any organisation is certainly not at its best when
the decision process is so fragmented. I do not believe any
board of directors would still be in place after they explained to
their shareholders that the board meetings would take place on
EXECUTIVE COUlCiL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 66
the basis of three meetings in the first six months and one in the
last six months. They would, quite justifiably in my opinion,
question their ability to manage the company in such a manner.
1am more than aware of the cost implications of a better based
meeting programme, but this could be alleviated somewhat with
better use of the available time. Less historical input to
meetings would be beneficial and make it a reasonably simple
matter of taking a day from two other meetings and turning
these into an additional meeting. This would slightly increase
the travelling costs but this would be offset by reduced
accommodation costs and even more so if we utilised weekend
special rates. If some Sub Committee meetings were aligned
and added to the extended programme of EC meetings, it would
positively impact on their costs too. The largest COST cut
would in fact be the increased benefit to the membership as a
whole.
I am sure, having listened to many different views from around
this table, several people have some very valid suggestions on
possible changes to these Council meetings that would be of
value, and I am sure these views could be incorporated in such
a review that is now being requested. It is essential that this
review is carried out with urgency and action taken at the
earliest opportunity - in fact before next year’s programme is
finalised.
Tradition is a vital part of any organisation, but it must not be the
reason to hold up progress, so we must not lose the opportunity
to improve the management of this Federation. It is so
important that apart from doing things right, that we are seen to
do so. Madam President, I comment this motion to this Council
and ask you all for your support and approve this review now.
MR WILLSHAW rose to second MR WALSH'S MOTION
It was pointed out by MR PEBERDY that attempts had been made in the past
to alter the timing of Executive Council meetings. He asked who would the
review be vested in, should the motion be successful. MR PEBERDY said he
had personally found that files speak volumes. Perhaps a different method
would achieve greater communication and time better spent. Possibly the
June meeting could be moved to July.
MR WALSH responded to MR PEBERDY by saying that tne experts we
already have the P & D Committee would be more than adequate to take on
the review.
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MRS KENDALL agreed that it was a long time from June to October and
during that time there had been only one request to call a special meeting.
Only seven Executive Officers are required to request 2 special meeting but
in the time mentioned no-one else has asked and no apparent interest has I
been shown in calling any additional meetings in that time. MRS KENDALL
went on to say that even considering the situation which has arisen during
this summer when a barrage of requests could have been expected, given the
circumstances flying around, no request had been received for an additional
meeting, except from MR EDMONDSON
Support was given to MRS KENDALL’S words by THE GENERAL
SECRETARY who went on to say that officers at Shoreham had felt isolated,
with so much criticism being bandied about by all and sundry. Membership of
the Federation is projected as a benefit, but some members don't believe
they are receiving any benefit. Getting information about current situations
across to the members has to be far more important than having meetings
and talking amongst ourselves. Having a July meeting, instead of June,
might be an excellent idea, but having more meetings is not always the
answer.
oa
MR CYRIL JONES pointed out that the Executive Council was the strategic
head of the organisation and should be looking at the prime issues of the
day. He felt this was not always done and that the Officers had, perhaps,
been remiss in not calling a special meeting to address specific important
matters. He also felt that this matter should be taken very seriously, that
meetings should be more regular and advocated very strongly in favour of a
review of current practice. He believed there must be many ways
improvements can be made to the cycle and frequency of Executive Council
meetings
While MR EDMONDS agreed with the principle of looking at the present
schedule, he was not sure that having more meetings was the answer.. He
went on to remind Officers that talking about historical matters and recalling
previous experiences acted as an aide to planning for the future. No Officer
should be shy of picking up the telephone if there is an issue to address. €
present cycle and frequency of the Executive Council meetings would be
undertaken.
It was further agreed that the General Purposes Committee would be the
i
group to undertake the review.
It was also decided that the General Purposes Committee should second any
member of the Executive Council or Officer at Shoreham on to the reviewing
committee if the need arose.
After a little further discussion, it was unanimously agreed that a review of the
ON
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 68
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A10 DEPARTMENTAL CORRESPONDENCE
A10(A) FOR DISCUSSION
POST OFFICE COUNTERS LTD
HUMAN RESOURCES
1. Annual Survey of NFSP Representation/Consultation PC HR 01
Arrangements
This item should not have been on the Agenda and should have been
removed following John Main’s presentation at the last meeting
NETWORK
2(a) Weekly Summary of Stock and PC NW08 01 '
Reconciliation. i
This subject has been changed to A3. The letter dated 6th October
1999 is a long answer to Kevin Davis’ earlier letter. MR PEBERDY
said there were one or two items which needed digging into and we
should ask for subpostmasters to check what they are being paid for
completion of this form. MR DAVIS had raised this briefly at a Bill
Payment meeting. Although the letter was a good, comprehensive
reply, he was not at all happy with the response. The new forms do i
not have a ‘carry forward’ figure from the previous week’s accounting I
and subpostmasters cannot reconcile. The system in situ at I
Chesterfield fails because local schemes forms are not being I
reconciled and clients were becoming upset at not getting settlement i
The system will now do all this reasonably quickly, but the old forms I
are not compatible with the new system. However, now the I
subpostmaster has to write in details such as type of ticket, number
and price by manual entry on the form.
It was pointed out that the Manchester area has 12 tickets and only 10
lines on the form. It is quite obvious that the form. has not been
designed by someone who uses it at the counter. MR DAVIS has been
assured that the matter has been raised with Paul Harris and it will
now be looked at again. In the meantime the present forms are
extremely unsatisfactory.
MR MORGAN JONES confirmed the situation in Manchester and
explained that there were a further 9 tickets for Greater Manchester
buses. Some subpostmasters were being admonished for not using
the new form and some forms have been destroyed. MR MORGAN
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999, Pace 69
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JONES was not currently using these forms as they caused too much
work and felt he would not do so unti! the form had been modified. He
pointed out that the form had never been presented to Federation
Headquarters in consultation, and it had never been reviewed prior to
introduction.
MR EDMONDSON pointed out that a number of subpostmasters only
sell a small number of these tickets and therefore do not have such
long and large entries to make. Some have returned their stock of
forms saying they do not make enough money out of the work to
warrant completion of the new form and its incumbent problems. i
MR JANNETTA mentioned that he uses the forms to enter the ‘Meals !
on Wheels’ vouchers and he writes the carry forward figure on the
under copy for his own use which makes the job easier.
2(b) Change to Standard Issue for PC NW 09 06
Motor Vehicle Licence
vom
No discussion took place on this item
SUBPOSTMASTERS’ CONTRACT.
3. Christmas & New Year Arrangements. PC SC 05 01
Opinion is that enough subpostmasters have volunteered to open on
the 28th December, that it will not be necessary to request other
offices to open. There may be pockets in the country where there are
insufficient volunteers, but this is not thought to be the case at present.
It is also thought that Post Office Counters are considering payment to
subpostmasters who have volunteered to open. MR PEBERDY was
reasonably confident that the payment would be £5.36 per hour
van
Suggestions had been made by some subpostmasters that the
opening hours for 28th December be changed. Some offices only
wanted half-hour lunch. MR DAVIS reported that as soon as the
availability of volunteers was know to POCL there would be a
statement regarding the opening hours
FOREIGN EXCHANGE.
4(a) Bureau de Change - Take off Tuesday CL FX 01.
Campaign.
No discussion on this item.
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 70
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GIROBANK.
5. Winter Fuel Payments CL GB 08 12
No discussion on this item.
INLAND REVENUE.
6. Working Family Tax Credit (WFTC) and
Disabled Persons Tax Credit (DPTC). CLIR 01.
MR JANNETTA asked if these credits will be paid by employers (i.e. a [action I
Subpostmaster), He highlighted the fact that some subpostmasters [acron J
are bound to have staff who will qualify for one or other of the credits
payable through wages but may not be able to claim for the payment of
this. MR JANNETTA was assured that it was the Federation's
intention to make representation to the Inland Revenue on the outlay
of expenditure and time taken for doing the work as this could cause
serious financial difficulties. MR JANNETTA continued by saying he
believed this particular credit was not covered by the arrangements
whereby allowances are funded by the Government. A letter from
Philip Bloor to the Government was requested to bring this matter into i
tine.
As the payment of this credit works in the same way as Statutory
Maternity Pay probably the same rules will apply but MR DAVIS said
the answer was no known when locked at from the point of view of
subpostmasters as employers. MR PEBERDY commented that when
current negotiations with POCL and the Benefits Agency get further
down the road, this is another aspect which can be used within the
tranch of work which will be lost to subpostmasters.
ROYAL MAIL
7. Campaign to Halt Underpayment. CL RM 05 05
No discussion on this item.
DVLA
8 Photocard Driving Licence CL VL 04 03
Applications Trial.
No discussion on this item
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 71]
A10(B) FOR INFORMATION
COMMERCIAL
1. Market Research. PC CM 02
No discussion on this item.
NETWORK
2 Helpline Update PC NW 10
No discussion on this item.
QUALITY
3. Disability Discrimination Act Research. PC QY 01.
No discussion under this heading.
SUB-POSTMASTERS’ CONTRACT.
4. Centralising Quality of Performance for
Agency Client Data. PC SC 06.
No discussion under this heading.
BENEFITS AGENCY
5. Liaison Meeting with POCL Benefits Distribution Team
No discussion under this heading.
FOREIGN EXCHANGE
6 Bureau de Change Pre-Order -
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CL BA 01.
Take off Tuesday Promotion. CL FX 02
No discussion under this heading
NATIONAL LOTTERY
7. Millennium Dome Ticket Sales. CLLO 04.
No discussion under this heading.
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999
Pace 72
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NATIONAL SAVINGS
8. Interest Rate Charges. CLNS
No discussion under this heading.
PASSPORT AGENCY I
9 Passport Extensions CL PAO1.
No discussion under this heading.
PARCELFORCE
10(a) Royal Mai! and ParcelForce WorldWide Tariff Changes. CL PF 04, :
10(b) DPI Labels CL PF 05 I
i
ROYAL MAIL /
I
11(a) Recorded Label. CL RM 05 02 I
No discussion under this heading.
11(b) Millennium Stamps - Market Research CL RM 05 05.
No discussion under this heading.
11(c) Changes to the Re-Direction Service. CL RM 05 07.
It was reported that there is likely to be trouble with this. It is not being
done over the telephone, it is all being done over the counter. Strict
and stringent controls were being executed in an attempt to combat
massive fraud. It was agreed that this must be raised with Royal Mail
and Post Office Counters on behalf of all subpostmasters. MR
BURFORD raised the question of QPA errors. Old papers should be
handed in and the new forms must be used. Stores have no new
forms at the moment and are upset and angry. There are bound to be
a high number of QPA errors found. MR PEBERDY suggested that an
emergency cascade would be the best way of dealing with this
problem. MR DAVIS advised that he had already taken this matter up
with Post Office Counters and would continue to pursue.
With regard to Posie Haste, THE GENERAL SECRETARY advised
that Mike Granville of POCL had assured him there would be
transitional relieve to help subpostmasters overcome this change.
There is nothing that can be done to stop competition from Europe.
EXECUTIVE COUNCK MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 73
11(d) Changes to International Tariff October 1999. CL RM 06 01.
No discussion under this heading.
A141. REPORT ON CENTRAL APPEALS
No report under this heading.
A12 GENERAL SECRETARY’S REPORT.
Matters normally discussed under this heading were examined under other
headings.
The letter from Mark Baker had been reviewed and advice taken, Several
Executive Officers had also received letters from Mark Baker, including MRS
KENDALL addressed to The National President. MRS KENDALL had not
responded because of the earlier decision to respond collectively. In view of
the content of Mark Baker's letter a number of Executive Officers had wanted
an individual letter sent to Mrs Baines. It was felt that this could be done in a
form of words which would not be against the policy of the Executive Council.
THE GENERAL SECRETARY indicated that the matter was completely in the
Executive Council's hands but felt the response could indicate that the matter
is being reviewed by our solicitors and we would reply when we have their
response. THE GENERAL SECRETARY believed the issue should be kept
in context and that whatever action is taken it cannot stop Mark Baker.
However, the Federation is a together and focused organisation and Mark
Baker must not be allowed to get in the way.
The circulated letter from Kate Davis referring to the Central Personnel
Register Services and temporarily suspended subpostmasters, was referred
to by MR PEBERDY. He understood from the correspondence that the CPR
will take on those staff and at the same time will take on the rent payment of
the suspended subpostmaster. He pointed out that Post Office Counters
currently get away with paying 80% of the existing subpostmaster's
remuneration. At first read, MR PEBERDY felt that this could solve the
situation and was worth looking at more closely. The final paragraph of Mrs
Davis’ letter to the Executive Council stated “If you are interested in pursuing
this proposal, further work can then commence”. Following a number of
comments from officers present, it was unanimously decided that further work
on this project should go ahead
However, MR MORGAN JONES stated that he had been approached by
Peter Abrahams of CPRS and that the level of concern was genuine There
is a need to discuss matters with Mr Abrahams and get him absolutely tied
down to no cost.
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 1999 Pace 74
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DECISION
ACTION I
(
A/13 NFSP TRADING LIMITED
It had been previously decided at a meeting of the Trading Company that the
commercial element of the Federation should be under one banner and it was
proposed to the Executive Council that NFSP Trading Ltd become a dormant
company. This would be finalised by the 31st December 1999 and all
remaining funds transferred to the Federation itself. This proposal was
accepted and carried
MR HEASMAN reported the income for the Trading Company since the last
meeting as £10,119 and the bank account currently holds approximately
£17,5000. From this the loan made by the Federation to set up the company
can be paid off. It is anticipated that by the end of 1999 there will be a profit
situation. Liability to Customs and Excise is £1,500. There were no
questions on the report which was moved
A/14 EXECUTIVE OFFICERS’ REPORTS.
No discussion under this heading
A/15 MATTERS RECEIVED TOO LATE FOR INCLUSION ON
AGENDA.
No discussion under this heading
A/16 ANY OTHER BUSINESS
No discussion under this heading
MRS REEVES stood to thank her colleagues, THE GENERAL SECRETARY
and everyone at Shoreham for the welcome and patient help she had
received. MRS REEVES said she had learned a great deal from everyone
She also commended the way the Agenda had been held together by MRS
KENDALL while remaining fair and firm and offered MRS KENDALL her own
thanks and that of her colleagues
MRS KENDALL wished everyone a safe journey home, a Happy Christmas
and a wonderful “millennium moment”
Cinpy Duke / MARIAN JONES i :
DECEMBER 1999 H i
C1. MEET. - OCTOBER 1998 Pase 75
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