STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL
FOR USE OF NATIONAL EXECUTIVE COUNCIL OFFICERS ONLY
NATIONAL FEDERATION OF SUB-POSTMASTERS
REPORT OF A MEETING
of the
NEGOTIATING COMMITTEE
held on
10th June 1999
at
THE REGENCY HOTEL
LONDON
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I
REPORT OF A MEETING OF THE NEGOTIATING COMMITTEE
held on the 10th June 1999
at The Regency Hotel, London.
Present: Mr M Burford
Mr M Challinor
Mr C Jones
Mrs J Kendall
Mr J Peberdy Chairman
In Attendance: Mr C Baker General Secretary
Mr K Davis Assistant General Secretary.
THE CHAIRMAN greeted all those present and thanked members for his
election to Chairman. A warm welcome was extended to the two new
committee members Mr Jones and Mr Challinor. The Chairman expressed
the hope that the Committee would continue to be progressive during what
promised to be a difficult year ahead.
A) REPORTS OF MEETINGS
Due to delays caused by conference, elections, staff changes and other
factors, the outputs from the NC meeting held 25th/26th February 1999 had
not yet been circulated to the Executive Council. It was now felt preferable to
wait for the next NC. meeting, during which matters would be brought up to
date.
B) MATTERS ARISING
Two amendments were made under Section 14(d) of the minutes. Under the
second paragraph, first line, the question marks were deleted and the word
“client” changed to “clients”. The third paragraph under this section,
commencing “COLIN ....” was deleted entirely. After the amendments had
been made, it was agreed the notes of the meeting held on 25th/26th
February were a true record and were signed by the Chairman.
1. POST OFFICE BOARD POBD.
The GENERAL SECRETARY stated that this section should be kept
“corporate” and that any other matters would be discussed under
Section 3 (a) and (b).
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a)
Shaping for Competitive Success
The GENERAL SECRETARY informed the meeting that he was very
sceptical about the aims of this project. During his address at
Conference, Neville Bain had reinforced the points covering the major
reorganisation which will maximise the Post Office’s performance and
determine future commercial success. The GENERAL SECRETARY
expressed the view that some conflict of interest may exist between
Business Units and Corporate Units as a result of the reorganisation
and, if it came to it, the Corporation interests would inevitably take
priority. He was unhappy with this situation and it would be closely
monitored,
NFSP has been promised close liaison with the programme.
Consultation will take place, not only with the Managing Directors in
our silo but also with their Business Units. The next meeting is
tomorrow (11th June). In the light of the special Executive Council
meeting, also scheduled for that day, the meeting would proceed
without the attendance of the General Secretary who will have a one-
to-one later to bring him up to date.
MR BURFORD asked whether the General Secretary envisaged more
meetings with Business Units. Confirmation of this was confidently
given, with the added comment that the meetings would involve more
people than had been previously.
The structure of the Shaping for Competitive Success project should
enable NFSP to consult corporate wide. Discussion/consultation with
Stuart Sweetman will form a separate set of discussions. Day to day
dealings with Post Office Counters Ltd will be through the POCL
Network Business Unit and will not change dramatically.
MR BURFORD suggested that with so many more business units to
deal with the NFSP’s influence may be diluted but the GENERAL
SECRETARY and MR PEBERDY indicated that the opposite effect
could be achieved if handled skilfully. Currently discussions were in
progress with P.O. Corporate Board establishing how NFSP will
interface with Counters Business Units. Talks have taken place with
John Roberts at Corporate Level, Stuart Sweetman - Silo, and POCL.
To date talks are progressing with the right people on the right subjects
considering how this consultation is to be structured. NFSP will
continue their diligence and keep up the pressure.
Some concern was expressed that it is no longer a profit and loss
network and is likely to become a series of delivery channels. NFSP
will continue to fight until there is clearer indication which direction the
Corporate status is moving. In spite of what is anticipated there will be
a special agenda for Accounts Business.
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b) I Top Management Programme.
It was suggested that this item be discharged from the Agenda. As a
GS circular had recently been circulated to the Executive Council, it
was agreed that they would be consulted.
ACTION
2. GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS PO PZ.
The GENERAL SECRETARY had been invited to give written and
verbal facts on Horizon to the Department of Trade and Industry.
(Verbal Friday 11th June, written Monday 14th June).
A white paper was expected at the end of June but, as this is heavily
influenced by Horizon, it is not now expected until middle of July. The
Horizon debate will take top priority.
3. POST OFFICE COUNTERS
a) Post Office Counters Board. POPC 02.
As a result of the recent reorganisation, there are new personnel on
the Post Office Board. Four new positions are due to be filled the
following day. When the Post Office Board is completed, NFSP’s
relationship will resume. .
b) Organisation Development PO PC 03.
Not every Executive Office has seen the John Main Newsbrief. The
GENERAL SECRETARY undertook to find out overnight what POCL’s
plans were for the regions. Special meetings are being arranged to
appraise regions of the developments in reorganisation. The Scottish
area appears to have been involved throughout, although other
regions have not been so fortunate. A meeting for the North East is
expected to be on the 8th July.
John Main has promised to involve the Federation at all levels and
THE GENERAL SECRETARY will be invited to a further meeting when
there is more information available.
There will be three territories (Bristol, St Albans and Glasgow) with
territorial managers working from home. Each territory will have a
small central head office which supports the various functions. An
interim map will be circulated in due course together with a letter from
John Main outlining the planned regional structure. The GENERAL
SECRETARY undertook to provide copies of the map to the Executive
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Council meeting the following day. The letter had not yet been made
public, because some jobs were in jeopardy and those concerned
would be advised first. Conjecture and/or discussion with existing
POCL staff was impracticable as some of the people the Federation
presently deals with may not be included in the reorganisation. On
completion of the new structure the Federation will be advised in detail
of personnel and their operational responsibilities. Most importantly
the Federation involvement will be at every level and its input will be an
integral ingredient of the new organisation.
Irrelevant I
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Irrelevant
b) Transactional Knowledge Review PC HR 04.
Where subpostmasters have been unable to attend meetings,
subpostmaster are visited at their offices by prior arrangement.
However, it was generally felt that the meetings were a waste of time
with second rate presentations from Retail Network Managers who are
not trained to “train”. Some information given was actually factually
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wrong. Kathryn Cooke of POCL has requested subpostmasters’
opinion of the seminars. It was generally agreed that if and when this
project is rolled out, it must be kept under strict control.
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Counter Automation - BA/POCL, PC NW 06 01.
THE GENERAL SECRETARY confirmed that closure payment for
ISIS/Horizon would be half.a day. This has been confirmed by Mike
Granville, POCL and an Agency Communiqué has been issued.
A tiered approach is likely be taken with regard to those postmasters
who require financial assistance for the automation. There may be a
discretionary fund for subpostmasters who have serious problems.
The Benefits Payment card project has, effectively, stopped for the
time being. This information is not yet “out” in the regions, but has
almost certainly circulated by word of mouth, THE GENERAL
SECRETARY had been in communication with Stephen Byers the
Trade & Industry Secretary and understands that an alternative project
will be outlined shortly. There have been a number of press releases
from the DTI and POCL and an announcement will be made by the
Government early next week.
On the 27th May Stephen Byers had written to every member of
parliament and Peter Bottomly MP wants the Federations views. The
Federation will be closely involved in future arrangements and with the
Horizon Working Group. The Federation will be involved every step of
the way and this is very important. Our voice is being heard and acted
upon. (This was a high powered meeting under Chairmanship of lan
McCartney the Minister).
During the previous week, JOHN PEBERDY and THE GENERAL
SECRETARY met with Stephen Byers, Secretary of State, put a series
of questions before the Minister, and received assurances/responses
as follows:-
i) What is ACT at Post Offices. Will people be forced to
have bank accounts?.
There will be a system in place which enables cash payments
for people who currently have order books. Those now using
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BACS cannot currently use the Post Office so the choice will
widen. The new platform will enable the Post Office to deal with
banks.
ii) If this is the only game in town, will the Government
commit the Benefits Agency to staying with the Post Office until
(a) the new system.is in place, and (b) contracts have been
signed by the banks?
This will be the objective. We will not walk away from the
network. Reference was made to the “Group” which must make
things work and pointed out that the Federation is part of that
Group on equal terms.
iii) If claimants are forced to have bank accounts, who will
be responsible for bank charges?. What about people who will
not remember pin numbers and those who are on Income
Support?
This is a working group issue. The appropriate agencies must
be brought to the discussion table. The working group will have
the control. How the “cannot/will nots” are dealt with is the
goup’s responsibility. The Post Office has always played a
social role.
iv) How will the banks cope with 100m new transactions
when they are currently paring down their own networks, Do
they want this type of client? What other networks are
envisaged and what will be left for the Post Office to do with
cash banking, ATM and telephone banking?
The White Paper gives a clear commitment to using automation
and to get work into Post Offices. More government work
through Post Offices is envisaged which will more than
compensate for the loss. The intention is to modernise
government and the Post Office could gain work from other
government departments.
THE GENERAL SECRETARY said that the Minister had not revealed
everything contained in the White Paper, but the important thing is that
as equal representatives on the working party we would have access
to all the information. There was a strong message that the White
Paper contains clear commitments about more than compensating for
loss-of work.
JOHN PEBERDY stated that the trial had failed miserably. Any
compensation would apply to all Post Offices. The envisaged size and
shape of the network was not yet clear, so it was not yet possible to
prophesy what is in store for subpostmasters.
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v) Is there a difference in the debate we are having about
Post Office Counters and the future size of the network. Will
any downsizing be compensated?
This is a Working Group issue, but we will not walk away from
the network.
THE GENERAL SECRETARY said that they just do not understand
what they have done and have not grasped all the implications
involved in withdrawing benefits from Post Offices.
It was ‘pointed out by both THE GENERAL SECRETARY and JOHN
PEBERDY that it was up to POCL and us to ensure the right
environment is created for any extra government business to be
carried out. The network would be needed for this business. Strong
efforts were made by THE GENERAL SECRETARY and JOHN
PEBERDY to draw the minister into revealing how it was envisaged
government was to be modemised but to no avail. However, repeated
assurance was given that they “would not walk away from the
network’,
CYRIL JONES commented it appeared Post Offices were required to
assist in the modernisation of government, but not the Benefits
Agency. Why do postmasters have to lose half of their business?
THE GENERAL SECRETARY pointed out that the work was not being
taken away, it would have been lost anyway in 2005 when the Benefits
Agency contract with POCL ended. Post Offices had been on the brink
of having nothing but with the Federations participation, the new
working party could ensure that inevitable changes .would be
maximised in postmasters’ favour.
vi) What does the future hold for subpostmasters? What
hope can you give them for the future when they are faced with
losing 30% of their livelihood. ?
This is a debate we need to have when we see the White
Paper. By the end of June we should know what that is. While
it is still in the air we will still be told “wait for the White Paper’.
It was generally agreed that if Post Offices were allowed to disappear
there would be a public outcry. There would always be an element of
the public who would want to draw benefits in cash..
MIKE BURFORD indicated that he was still concerned that a great
deal of work would be lost to subpostmasters and the network would
have to reduce. He felt that government were escaping their
responsibility.
THE GENERAL SECRETARY assured those present that a Regulator
would be appointed, who would determine the size and shape of the
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network, Federation representatives would have direct access to the
Regulator and if paring down the network was inevitable we would
strive to obtain maximum compensation. The Federation will have
equal standing with the other members of the working party and if we
are unable to stop events we must ensure we are match fit to secure
best possible terms.
vil) How much are Government putting in? £480m leaves a
shortfall. What if automation is not completed by 2001? What if
£480m is not enough? What further funding will be available to
make it work?
It is impossible to forecast what they are going to do in three
years’ time. There was no other answer to the question other
than, again, “we will not walk away from the network”.
THE GENERAL SECRETARY said we cannot fault that answer.
However, he and JOHN PEBERDY had made it very clear to the iq
Minister that the Federation were very annoyed about the withdrawal
proposals and the Federation would not be gagged.
viii) Will the outsourcing of the Benefits Agency contract to an
American Company reduce the government's control over its
activities.
This has no bearing whatsoever on what the government is
doing. Government will be able to control it.
JOHN PEBERDY stated that any system would have to take account
of frequency of payments. This side of things would be dealt with in
the detail of the arrangements. The DTI cannot control this. It will be a
commercial relationship between the Post Office and the banks.
It was presumed that powers would be granted for the Post Office to ¢
deliver social banking although it was doubtful that the Post Office will
function in the same way, due to opposition from competitors.
ix) ff has been stated that OBCS has made savings of
£100m. Why can't the benefit books remain in use as they are?
The Benefits Agency have wanted ACT since 1980 and would
have continued to fight for it until they succeeded. The BA
intended to move entirely to ACT at the end of their contract in
2005, even if the original Horizon project had gone ahead as
planned.
THE GENERAL SECRETARY and JOHN PEBERDY advised the
committee that they had gone to the meeting with the preconceived
idea that attempts would be made to “buy them off’ and placate them
with platitudes. However, it appears that government are worried
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about the extent of the Federations influence and it is our intention to
keep them worried. The Federation has a substantial role in the
Working Group and will be in a prime position to have as much
influence as possible. The Minister is under no illusion that the
Federation intends to bide its time and see what is to be delivered
before taking any further action.
Correspondence from lan McCartney, Stuart Sweetman and Alistair
Darling had been received and circulated.
The trial of the benefit card will cease on 19th June 1999.
The next meeting of the Horizon Working Group will be on Tuesday,
22nd June.
The Contract between POCL and ICL has to be signed by 16th July
1999 .
Extensive discussion continued regarding possible schemes for
replacing the Benefits Card, but plans would emerge as the
Federation’s participation in the Working Group progressed. However,
making ACT work for Post Offices is the main issue. Order books will
only be issued until 2003 by which time Post Offices are anticipated to
have the same capabilities as any bank or building society. The
Working Group will ensure that the priority of Benefits Agency
payments at Post Offices is not reversed until the proper date.
JEAN KENDALL pointed out that at some time this Committee (ora
representative) would have to speak to someone on the automation
programme about the financial outlay subpostmasters in the trial have
already incurred. One postmaster in particular had incurred £340 in
extra staff costs alone.
Some subpostmasters have had enormous difficulties balancing up
and finishing their cash accounts, even to the point of still struggling to
finish on Friday nights.
Tomorrow's special Executive Council meeting, which is being
attended for a short time by Stuart Sweetman and David Miller, is
crucial to finding out what has gone wrong with the Horizon
programme. ICL Pathway/POCL say its not the system.
Details of further developments and in depth information are awaited
following the next meeting of the Working Party on 22nd June.
Irrelevant —
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PC SC 27.
There has been no further correspondence on this matter. Our
recommendations were placed before POCL at a liaison meeting on
the 12th March 1999. Their response is still awaited.
Irrelevant
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THE CHAIRMAN closed the meeting at 6.00pm with apologies for the length
of the Agenda and thanking Committee members for their indulgence.
Further meetings with POCL would be arranged as soon as possible to clear
all the items which remained outstanding.
mj
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