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FOR USE OF NATIONAL EXECUTIVE COUNCIL OFFICERS ONLY
NATIONAL FEDERATION OF SUBPOSTMASTERS
BRIEF NOTES OF A
BRIEFING & DISCUSSION MEETING OF THE
NATIONAL EXECUTIVE COUNCIL
held on 1
Tuesday, 3 September
at
JURY’S HOTEL
ISLINGTON, LONDON
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PLEASE NOTE
Items that are totally confidential and not to be discussed
outside of the Executive Council have been ‘boxed’ and
shaded in pink (as is this note).
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© Nationa! Federation of SuoPostmasters Strictly Private & Confidential
. Sale would be an IPO (Initial Public Offering) to the public. .
. Many including the CWU were trying to stop the sale but a € ;
successful outcome would be difficult.
e Even if POL was reintegrated into RMG, NT would have to
happen.
. Campaign would be to make members and the public
realise the NFSP had massive worries about the
privatisation of RMG as the Government had not delivered
work.
. The network would need to change massively regardless
of any campaign.
. It would probably be the last campaign the NFSP had
such huge leverage on as membership was declining
dramatically due to NT. More and more multiples were
owning post offices.
e Postcards would be provided to all post offices (both
members and non-members) with the exception of the Co .
Op (at their request). ©
. NFSP members ran about 6,800 branches, but without
outreaches the number reduced to 6,100.
e Projections were that in the next 3-4 months, membership
would fall to around 5,900 (less than half the network).
. As time was of the essence, request that the EC
discussed and chose which of the three designs provided
should be adopted for the postcard campaign.
. There followed very lengthy discussion where various I
concerns were aired.
° Made clear that members should be encouraged to ‘give it
their all’ and visit their MP’s face to face.
. Some members had already visited their MP’s and had
sent in letters they had received. Members and EO’s
should go either in groups or as individuals to meet their
MP as soon as possible. i
. The economic climate was awful with 25% of shops { € :
anticipated to close in the next 3-4 years, with the largest
number of victims being newsagents.
. The postcard would not just be about privatisation so
would still be applicable even if the privatisation went
ahead.
. Felt that members of the public with savings may see an
opportunity to get a better return from RMG shares than
they got from their banks/building socieites.
° Crucial the campaign remained within the EC until
launched or there was a possibility the government could
outflank the NFSP.
e Various views were expressed that the sale was so far
advanced, it would be impossible to stop it.
. Clarified that boxes on the postcards would be pre-ticked
(error made on the proofs provided by the designers). j
Executive Counci’ 2rie‘ing anc Discussion 3 Sertemder 2013 Page 2 of 13
Win or lose, the campaign had to take place to put a
marker down as the Government had failed to deliver new
work and had put the future of POL in jeopardy.
The chances of totally stopping the privatisation were slim
at best. Various concerns on timing were expressed,
however it was explained that it would not have been
possible to launch the campaign sooner, and it was now
being rolled out as fast as possible.
Following some criticism it was made clear that the NFSP
was not finished as an organisation and could still make a
difference.
The EC's views on an invitation made to the General
Secretary to speak at a CWU fringe meeting were sought.
Following discussion, it was seen as appropriate as long
as it was on the NFSP’s terms, not the CWU's.
The NFSP would be holding fringe meetings at all the
party political conferences with the assistance of the
Fabian Society.
The NFSP was only one of many opposing the
privatisation of RMG, it did not stand alone in it's
opposition.
DAVID MILNER proposed “That the NFSP mount a
postcard campaign as soon as possible to protect it’s
members’ income.” The motion was duly seconded and
won at vote after lengthy discussion.
A postcard design (with amendments) was selected.
NFSP should take some credit as it was getting numerous
mentions during debates in Parliament. The
organisation's views were well known to MP's, but
personal, face to face, meetings would be crucial.
NETWORK TRANSFORMATION
Made very clear to the EC that the details to be divulged
should under no circumstances be repeated in any form
to anyone outside the room.
NFSP team comprised of five members - George
Thomson, Marilyn Stoddart, David Milner, Mervyn Jones
and lan Park - all of whom had signed an NDA.
No meetings held for the previous 3-4 weeks as it had
been made clear to POL that no discussions would take
place until a solution to the mails segregation issue were
agreed. Last meeting had actually taken place on 24 July.
Chair of the NC reported that the government wanted NT
to be mandatory for those leaving.
Government, POL and NFSP to work together to make the
process crystal clear.
Slight query over the assertion that there would be some
gaps created in the network and an extension would be
required to fill the gaps with new outlets.
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[DECISION
POL had discussed with the NFSP what the scheme may
look like, however it was again clarified that no decisions
would be made without the approval of the EC and a
Special Conference.
Proposal, so far, for Local conversions was 24 months
CTP plus 24 months of products no longer transacted,
plus up to £10,000 of investment, and to allow those
offices to keep their CTP until the end of 2015/16, giving
them time to adjust.
POL believed there was already a compelling offer for
Mains conversions so were offering no new money. It
would remain as a £10,000 lump sum and investment
money. The number of Mains would be reduced from the
original 4,000 to only 2,700.
Wanted plan for the new network to be in place by
2015/16 even if some of the actual conversions took a bit
longer.
Desktop exercise would be undertaken to look at the
parameters to see which offices would be Locals and
which Mains, Teams would go out without talking to the
subpostmaster. POL had no idea in most cases what
individual offices looked like. Teams would get a feel for
the way offices were run and of the private side.
The visit would be made in terms of whether there was a
viable future for the business.
Further visits would be made to talk to the subpostmaster.
There would be some offices which should close, but were
believed to be in a strategic position.
Last shops in the village (LSIV) would be designated
community offices (meaning ‘stay as you are’). No
discussions yet on how that would work for offices that are
already unviable. Discussions would need to take place
on that issue.
Some will be expected to leave but there will be
subpostmasters who think they can survive with little or no
retail. They would be a sticking point and a difficult area.
They would need to take on some retail or move to
premises with a retail offering.
Due to the reduction in the number of Mains to 2,700,
some who previously believed they would convert to a
Mains would be told they will be a Local or would leave.
There will be an Appeals Process and this will be agreed
in the coming months.
NFSP team would like the offer to be 26 months
compensation and would consider a mandatory process
for exiters.
Sticking points was it was envisaged to be up until
2015/16, and was effectively a mandatory exercise making
it extremely difficult to get passed by a Special
Conference.
Subpostmasters would realise there was a timescale.
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lf the NFSP accepted compulsory conversions it would be
difficult to get through.
Also discussed those converted to Locals who had a lot of
compensation money (24 months CTP, plus personal
incentives plus investment money from POL). If they
wanted them to ‘do up’ the private side of the business,
they could be allowed to bring forward all the payments
and receive them up front.
That could be substantial sums to be spent on updating
their offices. Query from POL was if they saw the post
office as being unlikely to survive as a stand alone
business and would need a thriving retail to survive.
Without it to support the post office business, it would be
unlikely to be able to carry on.
The NFSP needed to identify a means of improving the
Mains offer as it was not a compelling offer regardless of
POL’s view.
Some of them could keep their CTP to improve the
incentive payment, however there was no agreement and
needed to be discussed further.
There was a lot still to thrash out.
Briefing paper would be issued for the October EC
meeting. There would be a full briefing paper issued to
members prior to any Special Conference.
The Commercial & Network Director then reported that NT
in it's current form had hit the buffers and people were not
signing up.
They knew they would lose their CTP.
Projections used by FCA’s would be from October to
September.
Felt the decision making process within POL was all over
the place.
NFSP obligation was to it's members and their welfare.
It was kinder for those without a future to tell them the
situation, and increase the offer of compensation to 24
months, getting them to take the money rather than to
keep them hoping things would get better.
The Government had not delivered. POL had not
delivered. The NFSP had not always delivered. Crucial to
be honest and tell members.
POL’s business plan had more holes than a Swiss
cheese, anticipating £250 million from financial services.
Typically 8 products a week were being sold in a whole
sales area and POL wanted to grow it to £250 million a
year. POL will not tell the Government it could not be
achieved and subpostmasters would suffer yet again.
The NFSP didn't manage the company and there were
some things that could be changed and others that
couldn't.
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Obligation was to get the best deal possible for members.
Currently much being done for those leaving, but more
needed to be done for those staying.
Looked at rates for Mains. Reduction in Mains by around
1,500. There were less losers on high end Mains. Bottom
rung tracked. Projections provided by Field Change team
would be checked by Richard Jackson.
Smokescreens set up to make it difficult to make the right
decision as they didn't care if spms were worse off.
On the new ‘son of NT’, it was all very well making it
compulsory. What would happen if a spm was told he had
no future but no one was willing to take it on? Others will
have been told they could become a Main but would be
told the options were either become a Local or leave.
On the subject of ill health, some members are very ill.
Current NT system causes added stress, and in some
cases it has taken 18 months for POL to do nothing if the
new appointee fails the interview or changes their mind.
There has to be a better way involving the NFSP properly
at the highest level.
There followed some lengthy discussion and comment.
Not all information could be shared due to the NDA. The
EC had received a full update.
Convinced the NFSP could achieve between 24 and 26
months for those compulsorily closed down, and there
would be in the region of 3,500 such cases including 1,700
volunteers.
There would be people who had been told they would be
Mains being told now they would be a Local with 7-800
being forced to leave against their wishes.
The network would change with or without the support of
the NFSP.
On the subject of Locals, many spms were planning to
stay as they were for a long as they could. There would
be compulsion for exiters but no compulsion for
conversions.
They would only currently get 18 months CTP plus lost
products. NFSP want it to be a minimum of one year
salary. So for an office on a £50k salary currently of which
£12k was CTP they would get £18k currently. Want them
to receive £50k and believe that is achievable. Some
waiting right to the end of the programme to keep their
CTP as long as possible. Want fixed pay guaranteed for 3
years.
Hence on a £50k office they would receive £36k (3 years
fixed pay) plus £50k = £86k up front.
NFSP had not allowed it to be a totally compulsory
programme. Any compulsion would be for those exiting.
Believed there was no choice but to accept a degree of
compulsion for exiters.
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. There would be criticism, as it will be one of the most
contentious decisions ever made by the NFSP. It would
be very difficult.
° Debate would continue at the October EC meeting. If a
spm is running a post office on a middle salary between
£40 and £70k with little retail, the market determines one
way or the other they will struggle to survive going
forward. Not a nice fact but it was a fact.
° NFSP had tried its best to get a new future for POL but the
Government had let everyone down. There were issues
with doing nothing. Were the NFSP better saying to
someone on a £50k salary that the best that can be done
due to the situation is £120k to move on and do either
something else or buy into a post office on the new model.
Could let then run for 5 years and see their income fall to
£20k then with only 18 months on the table.
. After 2017 there was no more money. In 5 years that
person may have a business no one wants to buy, with a
falling salary and a government not prepared to put money
in. No one would take pleasure in telling them, it was sad
but true.
° Lengthy discussion followed with many reservations
expressed.
° There was no firm proposal to put as yet, but again
clarified that any decisions would be made by the NC, the
EC, and by the members at a Special Conference.
. General feeling was that many spms would be happy to
leave if offered 26 months compensation.
. Further meetings would be held with POL to discuss the
various issues that required clarification, particularly in
cases where a spm had been told they were to go but no
replacement could be found.
. Concerns expressed that POL and their FCA’s had no
knowledge of retail and were in no position to judge a
spms private business.
° Further discussions would take place at the October EC
meeting.
MAIL SEGREGATION
° POL had capitulated. Proposed letter (with possibility for
amendment) circulated.
e Any payment would be backdated. If a spm was earning
£15 a month prior to the action they would receive 6 x £15
in back pay.
. Further work was being undertaken by Keith Richards and
David Milner with POL on a robust payment system going
forward.
° £2.2 million a year would go back into spms pay.
° An orange paper vote would take place for the EC.
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© Nationai Federation of SuaPostmasters Strictly Private & Confidential
. Convinced that currently POL would not go above the .
£2.2 million. ¢
° Agreement had only been reached because the NFSP
refused to discuss NT until the issue was settled.
. POL Board were not happy at public criticism of bonuses
ete.
. Made clear that industrial action would only ever happen
as an exception, it should not be viewed as the norm.
. There followed discussion and various views were aired.
. Clarified that some spms were being paid but were not
segregating mail. It would be tightened up, with those
failing having their payment removed until such time as
their segregation was satisfactory when it would be
reinstated.
. Also clarified that segregation would be a contractual
requirement unless limited space made it a health and
safety issue. It had to be remembered that RM were
POL’s largest customer by far and contributed most to € ;
spm pay. It was RM that required segregation.
. Any measurement system used to judge spms had to be
robust, and failures should be explained to individuals.
. The whole issue needed to be debated by the NC first,
then an EC orange paper vote would take place.
jefing an¢ Discussion 3 Sestem*er 2013 Page 8 of 12
Executive Counc
HORIZON
The Post Office interim report on Horizon had concluded that
there was nothing fundamentally wrong with the Horizon
system, however it highlighted the fact that the training and
support for Subpostmasters was not all it could be. POL are
in discussions with the Negotiating Committee on providing
training and support.
Wendy Burke reported that there had been an issue with the
prompts on one of her screens in relation to postage not
being consistent. The Horizon helpline were aware of this
issue. lan Park will raise this although it did not affect any
balancing on the system.
Believed there was no systemic problem with Horizon.
People are jumping on the bandwagon and blaming losses
on the Horizon system.
Since the report was published Shoreham HQ have advised
those that blame Horizon to write to Paula Vennells, Post
Office Limited.
Bad publicity could prevent some customers using the Post
Office and affect the future of the Network.
Concern raised that the NFSP are not involved in the
Mediation Panel.
TRADE UNION STATUS
The General Secretary reported that recent paperwork
received had been circulated.
The NFSP had been a Trade Union for some 70 — 80 years
at least and prior to that possibly a Friendly Society.
The NFSP is at present an unincorporated association with
Trade Union status.
The Certification Office was set up 1975-1976 since when
and with whom the NFSP has been always been a registered
as a Trade Union with.
According to the Trade Union Labour Relations Act of 1992
the majority of Trade Union members had to be workers.
None of the NFSP’s members are workers.
It is believed that disaffected ex-members, with the backing
of the CWU, had questioned the NFSP’s status with the
Certification Officer.
The CO intends to delist the Federation on 4 October 2013.
Will no longer be a Trade Union within the next two months
but will still remain as an unincorporated association. This
may involve moving to a Trade Association. A number of
meetings had been held with Solicitors.
Currently have 6,100 real members of whom all are self
employed.
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The CWU could recruit our members and remain a Trade
Union because most of their members, ie Postmen, that they
represent at present are workers, Post Office Limited will not
give the CWU representation right for Subpostmasters.
Post Office Limited have stated in answer to a Freedom of
Information request “We deal with the Federation not
because of the Trade Union Consolidation Act of 1992, but
because they are the sole representatives of
Subpostmasters in the UK. This is consistently given as their
position.
Work being done with POL on representing all agents.
Options are to remain as an independent organisation or as
some Midland Region members suggested to join the CWU.
Believed the latter to be the wrong move. Alternatively could
merge with another association.
Believed that the organisation could continue representing
Subpostmasters and negotiating on their behalf with POL as
an independent organisation.
As Subpostmasters are not required to give personal service
they could not be regarded as workers.
The status of Subpostmasters in previous employment
appeal tribunal cases has been determined as not being
workers.
In the short term would remain as an unincorporated
association, without the Trade Union legislation and status.
In the medium term the main issue would be income and
how this is derived given the changes to the network.
May have to consider how to position ourselves with other
organisations that strive to provide the same types of service
in the area the Federation operate in, possibly in the retail
actor or alternativaly as nart af another vinian
Solicitors’ advice had been taken and the organisation does
not need to be dissolved.
Believed joining with the CWU will not be an option as they
represent Crown Offices etc and the NFSP believes that
these are not viable to the network.
Consideration to be given to Shoreham HQ, The staff and
the General Secretary.
Possibly need to take a proposal to Conference 2014.
Need to have a communication strategy to members before
they hear from another source.
Had always played down our Trade Union status in the past.
POL negotiate and recognise the NFSP not because the
NFSP is a trade union but because the NFSP is the
membership organisation that represents UK
Subpostmasters.
Questioned if the NFSP’s funds would need to be paid back
to members.
Suggested to try and extend the date of 4 October for the
NFSP being delisted as a trade union. Confident will have
influence with POL for the next year because of NT.
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° Possibly realise the ambition of representing all
subpostmasters and operators through auto enrolment once
the NFSP is not longer a trade union because there would no
longer be the threat of being a closed shop.
° Subscriptions should still be able to be collected by check-
off, with POL’s co-operation
° Emphasised the importance of any discussions taking place
in the room and any paperwork distributed being kept strictly
confidential.
. Suggested to find out on an informal basis from the CO
whether the complainants have been notified of the future
de-listing of the Federation.
° Mark Baker, CWU Subpostmasters had claimed that he had
approached the NFSP to join up with them. This was not
true.
° Bhavna Desai asked if any letter to members could be sent
sooner rather than later as she believed there would be
motions to say all the assets will have to be dissolved and
the members will not see any of the money.
e Firmly believed that there would not need to be any
dissolution of the NFSP.
e Need to give consideration how best as an organisation the
NFSP represents its members.
e — Rules state that if the Federation had to dissolve then such
decision would be made at a special Conference. That
Conference would decide what should happen to the funds.
AOB
e Bhavna Desai asked for clarification on whether Mails
Segregation was a condition of the IBA and that POL were
getting a payment for this and this was contractual.
. Confirmed that it was contractual and that there was a clause
that imposed fines on POL.
e Paul Haines reported that in the terms and conditions of
Drop and go it stated “To build up a profile of your use of our
products and services for internal analysis and marketing
purposes.” He shared his concerns that this information
would be used by Royal Mail to poach customers. The NC
had been assured that the information would not be passed
on to Royal Mail.
e Paul Haines referred to Branch Focus 22, Key Security
changes since last update, bullet point one stated “A fixed
amount of working cash of £2,500 has been stipulated per
open fortress position (£4,000 in crowns). Concerned that
crowns were higher as they do not have to repay any losses.
° Believed it was impossible to hold this small amount on a
Monday morning. It stated that in exceptional circumstances
90 minutes worth of cash could be held. The NC will take up
the issue of different amounts for Sub Offices and Crowns.
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Keith Richards reported that the EC had argued against a
motion at Conference in respect of holding cash in offices.
But the motion was passed and had now set a benchmark.
Paul Haines reported that the EC had been told previously
that reverting back to earlier closing on a Saturday for offices
that had undergone transformation was business as usual,
but now an appeal process was being put in place
Mervyn Jones in his response said that the decision on
Saturday PM opening was originally going to be with the
contracts team. A panel had been recently set up to review
requests for earlier Saturday PM opening. David Milner and
lan Park will sit on the panel.
David Milner’s ambition was that POL pay compensation for
the period they had remained open to any Subpostmaster
that was successful in having their hours reduced.
Mervyn Jones reported that if a Branch is replaced by an
Outreach or a mobile solution then compensation would be
paid.
Bhavna Desai asked if it was true that Franchise offices
cannot pay their subs by Check-Off. The General Secretary
will get clarification on this issue.
Kym Ledgar asked if the Trading Company had investigated
the possibility of having a template for customers’ own use
for measuring and pricing of parcels.
Mervyn Jones believed these would need to retail at £6-7.
IPS can produce them. Mervyn Jones will go back and see if
they can be produced at less cost.
Kym Ledgar asked for guidance on accepting PP1 mail in
sacks.
Keith Richards reported that in his area Royal Mail
approached his and other Subpostmasters customers to
collect directly from customers premises after he had raised
this with Royal Mail as a health and safety. The NC will take
this issue forward.
Kym Ledgar reported that she had conducted two RTU's
where credit had been given on postage. She believed this
was heavy handed and was concerned whether POL was
becoming hard-lined on this.
Suggested the Subpostmaster should put the cash in
themselves out of a fund.
Helen Baker asked how the NFSP stood after the news that
the CWU and Unite had pulled out from mutualisation.
The General Secretary in responding said that the CWU and
Unite had pulled out from the stakeholder Forum. He and
Mervyn Jones represent the NFSP. The reason for the CWU
and Unite pulling out was because they have ongoing
industrial actions over Crown Offices.
The Federation are still supportive of the concept of POL
becoming a mutual.
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(ACTIO;
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o National Federation of SubPostmasters Strictly Private & Confidentia!
. Wendy Burke proposed a vote of thanks to the National
( President, Andrew Gilhooly, on the way he had conducted
the meeting.
Sharon Merryweather
Lynda Willoughby
September 2013
Executive Counci! Srie‘ing ane Tiscussion 3 Sestemser 2073 Page 13 0° 13
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