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CB/SAJ PC NW 06 01
Evelyn House,
13 January 2004 22 Windlesham Gardens,
Shoreham-by-Sea,
West Sussex BN43 5AZ.
GRO
Mr Alan Bates.
General Secretary: COLIN BAKER
Senlor Assistant Genoral Secretary
Kewn Davis
Assistant General Secretary
MARICYN STODDART
Dear Mr Bates I
Horizon System
Thank you for your letters of 17 December 2003 and 7 January 2004. I note that
Betty Williams has written to Allan Leighton.
I can go no higher within the Royal Mail group than Allan Leighton, and I am sure
that your Member of Parliament will have as much, if not more, success than I would. I
Hopefully, therefore, you will have further information from that route. }
In relation to errors which members considered were due to Horizon problems, the
Executive Council set up a Joint Federation/Post Office Ltd group who visit the
Horizon helpline site to discuss and resolve issues. It is my understanding that Post
Office Ltd can trace the nature of any error including telephone calls relating to the
same when the Horizon System is in question and, therefore, should be able to
Produce evidence that all is, in fact, correct from their side,
We are not in a position to provide information regarding other Subpostmaster’s
dealings with Post Office Ltd. We are aware that there were some disputes around {
the time that offices migrated from the manual system to the Horizon System, but we I
are now of the view that Horizon works well and that there are no real problems in
Post Offices which are operated by the Horizon System.
.-- Yours. sincerelw,.........
COLIN BAKER
General Secretary
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Mr Colin Baker
General Secretary
National Federation of Subpostmaster
Evelyn House
22 Windlesham Gardens I
SHOREHAM BY SEA I
BN43 SAZ ke
Dear Mr Baker
Thave enclosed a copy of the latest correspondence to and from my MP Betty Williams as
well as copy of a reply she has received from Richard Baker.
Your views or any advice you can offer on Post Office Ltd proposed action would be greatly
appreciated and I hope I can rely on the support of the Federation should a meeting with Post
Office Ltd occur.
GRO I
Ex Subpostmaster Craig-y-don Post Office
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Mrs B Williams MP
House of Commons
LONDON
SWLOAA
Your Ref: C2331/41413
13" January 2004-01-13
Dear Mrs Williams
Thank you for your letter dated 8° January and the enclosure from Richard Baker.
Jam still concerned that the review of the case is to be undertaken internally by Post Office Ltd.
When I received the letter of termination of contract from them dated 5" August 2003 I wrote to
Allen Leighton’s office, who looked into the matter and eventually responded on 27" August.
Their letter totally failed to address the points raised of the core issue, it also showed that they had . {
only reviewed their position and that they had registered the name of Craig-y-don Post Office. Not I
once did anyone from Post Office [td contact me or try to discuss the issues with me, i
If Sandy Stephen is to review the case in its entirety he will obviously need to contact myself and I
will ensure I am available to provide him with the information he requests.
cannot help feel that this is yet another attempt by Post Office Ltd to close the matter without
responding to the core issues of this case. In their latest response to you I note that they have not
once referred to the questions in my last letter, I trust they will include the answers to you when ‘
they have completed their review. I
‘Alan Bates Ex: Subpostmaster Craig-y-don Post Office
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HOUSE OF COMMONS
LONDON SWIA 0AA
BETTY WILLIAMS AS/MP
Aelod Seneddo! Llafur Etholaeth Conwy
Labour Member of Parliament for Conwy
a)
W
oO
My Refi C2331/42321 - please quote in reply
8" January 2004
Dear Mr Bates 1
Further to my letter of 23" December 2003, enclosed is a copy of the reply dated 5" January I
2004 from Mr Richard Barker, General Manager of the Commercial Network at the Post I
Office. I
I hope that the review will be helpful.
With best wishes,
Yours sincerely
Mrs Betty Williams MP
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FC Nl O€
Mr Colin Baker .
General Secretary f
National Federation of Subpostmaster i
Evelyn House i G RO
22 Windlesham Gardens pie (fe Nn Oe fp)
SHOREHAM BY SEA I J !
BN43 5AZ 1, 08 JAN 2004 I
{ iu ons)
7" January 2004
Dear Mr Baker
Further to the copies of correspondence I sent you before Christmas, I have enclosed a copy
of the response I received from Betty Williams MP to my letter to her dated 5" December
2003.
GRO
Alan Bates
Ex Subpostmaster Craig-y-don Post Office
y!
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RT
Betty Williams MP
House of Commons
LONDON
SW1A OAA RECEIVED
G8 y,
05.01.04 Your ref: C2331/41413
- ®
Dear Ms Williams
“an essential part of everyday life” www.postoffice.co.uk
Thank you for your letter of 23 December 2003, addressed to Allan
Leighton, enclosing a copy of a letter from your constituent Alan Bates -
. ex-subpostmaster at Post Office®, Craig-y-don branch.
Mr Bates raises a number of issues, many of which were addressed in
my letter of 1** December. I stand by all the points I made in that letter.
I also stand by my comment that at the heart of Mr Bates’ concerns is
his belief that the Horizon system is corrupt. A position substantiated, I I
believe, by the comments Mr Bates makes on his website
postofficevictims.org.uk
These things said, Mr Bates quite obviously has a deep-seated belief
that he has been treated unjustly by Post Office Ltd. In an attempt to
bring this matter to a conclusion, I am asking an independent member
of my senior management team - Sandy Stephen, Head of Area for
Scotland - to review the case in its entirety.
[ will write to you again once that review has been completed.
Yours sincerely
p Richard Barker
General Manager, Commercial Network
Page 1 of 2 Post Office Ltd
Registered in England and Wales number: 2154540
Registered Office: 80-86 Old Street
London ECIV SNN
The Post Office and the Post Office symbol are
registered trade marks of Post Office Ltd in the
UK and other countries.
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i
HOUSE OF COMMONS
LONDON SWIA 0AA
BETTY WILLIAMS AS/MP.
Aelod Seneddol Liafur Etholaeth Conwy
Labour Member of Parliament for Conwy
My Ref: C2331/42117 ~ please quote in reply
23" December 2003
Dear Mr Bates
Thank you for your letter of 15"" December 2003 responding to the letter of 1* December
2003 from Mr Richard Barker.
In view of your detailed comments I have written again to Mr Allan Leighton and the
Minister. When I receive their responses I will contact you again.
With my best wishes
Yours sincerely
Mrs Betty Williams MP
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(FC NW OG of
a”
POST I
"mu postofievictims org kg -—-—------ —
Mr Colin Baker Alan Bates
General Secretary
National Federation of Subpostmaster
Evelyn House G RO
22 Windlesham Gardens
SHOREHAM BY SEA
BN43 SAZ . Tel/fax I
17" December 2003
Dear Mr Baker
As per your request I have enclosed copies of the correspondence which has been taking
place between my MP and myself as well as copies of the responses she has received. I have
collated them in chronological order though it is too soon to expect a reply from my MP to
my last letter.
I seem to remember hearing at the Llandudno conference that it was proposed a list of
Horizon problems was to be collated by the Federation, did it ever happen? Is there anyone
you can suggest I talk to? I have also been hearing stories about others having their suboffices
removed by Post Office Ltd over Horizon issues, do you have any information on other cases
or others fighting Post Office Ltd over Horizon? This is an area I am planning to explore in
the new year when I will be trying to highlight the problems in the national press, hence the
banner and website.
Please let me know if you require any further information.
“Alan Bates”
Ex Subpostmaster Craig-y-don Post Office
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CBIPLH PC NW 06 01 lib 7 S P
{National Federation of SubPostascers
Evelyn House,
8 December 2003 22 Windlesham Gardens,
Shoreham-by-Sea,
West Sussex BN43 5AZ
Mr. M. Granville, Telephone:
Post Office Ltd.,
Head of Regulatory & Stakeholder Affairs,
80-86, Old Street, _Wrwsubpostmasters.orguk
LONDON, om ;
EC1V 9NN. ser Aare Corl seer
Kevin Dans
Assistant General Secretary
ManityN STODDART
{ Dear Mike, I
Craig-y-don Post Office I
! am sure you will not mind my reminding you that you promised me a response to
the individual case of Craig-y-don Post Office in Llandudno. I understand Mr Bates
is no longer the Subpostmaster and that the Office has, in fact, been closed or has
been transferred.
You will be aware that Mr Bates is complaining of Horizon failures and I would be I
grateful if you could let me have some indication of the thinking of Post Office Ltd in
this case.
I look forward to hearing from you.
oursSincer
COLIN BAKER I
General Secretary
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CB/SAJ PC NW 06 01
Evelyn House,
8 December 2003 22. Windlesham Gardens,
Shoreham:
Mr Alan. Bates,
e-mail: nfspi
i wwwsubpostmasters.orguk
General Secretary: COUN BAKER
Senior Assistant General Seeretary
Kevin Davis
Assistant General Secretary
MARIYN STODDART
Dear Mr Bates
Craig-y-don Post Office '
Thank you for your letter of 2" December.
I note that you have written to your Member of Parliament who, in turn, has sent the
matter on to Stephen Timms. I would be extremely grateful to you if I could see
copies of the correspondence you receive following your approaches to Stephen
Timms.
I regret I have not yet received any response from Post Office Ltd and have written
again today seeking a reply.
_...Yours sincerely __
GRO
COLIN BAKER
General Secretary
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WA
HOUSE OF COMMONS
LONDON SWI1A 0AA
BETTY WILLIAMS AS/MP
Aelod Seneddol Llafur Etholaeth Conwy
Labour Member of Parliament for Conwy
GRO
Mr. Alan Bates.
My Ref: C2331/41916 - please quote in reply
5" December 2003
Dear Mr Bates
Further to my letter of 19" November 2003, enclosed is a copy of the reply dated 1°
December 2003 from Mr Richard Barker, General Manager, Urban Network, Post Office Ltd.
In view of Mr Barker’s response I regret I am unable to take further action on your complaint.
With best wishes,
Yours sincerely
Mrs Betty Williams MP
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(
Mrs Betty Williams AS/MP
House of Commons RECEIVED
LONDON “3 BEC 2003
SWIADAA
Your Ref: C2331/41413
01.12.03
Dear Mrs Williams i? ‘ ®
“an essential part of everyday life” www.postoffice.co.uk
You letter to Allan Leighton of 19 November, enclosing a letter from
your constituent Mr Alan Bates, has been passed to me for reply. I will
attempt to address each of the points raised in Mr Bates letter in turn.
On the first point, all I can say is that there is a difference of opinion,
between ourselves and Mr Bates, over conversations that have taken
place.
On the second point, concerning the Horizon system and the reasons
for the termination of Mr Bates contract, I refer to our letter to Mr Bates
of 20 August. I have no doubt whatsoever that my operations team
have acted wholly professionally in this matter and had legitimate
grounds upon which to terminate Mr Bates contract with Post Office
Ltd. No 'smokescreen' is being created, nor do we lack any confidence
in the integrity of the Horizon system.
Mr Bates third point concerns his recent experience following a specific
foreign currency transaction. I have investigated this particular issue in
some depth. The outcome of this investigation suggests, very clearly,
that the Horizon system was not at fault. Indeed, there is evidence to
suggest that the instructions to Mr Bates for dealing with the problern
he faced, were not followed correctly.
On Mr Bates specific point about the availability of Horizon data, I can
confirm that data is only held locally for 30 days. However, after that
period, the data is not lost to us. All data is archived and is available to
support investigations as required.
At the heart of Mr Bates concerns is his belief that the Horizon system
is in some way corrupt and that Post Office® Ltd are attempting to
Page 1 of 2.” a Post Office Ltd
Registered in England and Wales number; 2154540
Registered Office: 80-86 Old Street
London ECIV INN
The Post Office and the Post Office symbol are
registered trade marks of Post Office Ltd in the
UK and other countries.
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conceal this fact in our dealings with him. ! can reassure you that we
have absolute confidence in the system. None of the investigations we
have conducted at Mr Bates request have produced any evidence to
support his position.
Yours sincerely
Richard Barker
General Manager, Urban Network
Post Office Ltd . i
Calthorpe House
15-20 Phoenix Place
LONDON WC1X ODG
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=e
¥v
HOUSE OF COMMONS
LONDON SWIA 0AA
BETTY WILLIAMS AS/MP
Aelod Seneddol Liafur Etholaeth Conwy
Labour Member of Parliament for Conwy
Office: (...,
Surgery Appointments:
My Ref: C2331/41609 - please quote in reply
19" November 2003 I
Dear Mr Bates
Thank you for your letter of 11" November 2003 and your comments about Mr Dave
Barrett’s letter concerning the temporary closure of the Craig-y-Don Sub Post Office.
1 am taking this up again with both the Minister and Mr Allan Leighton and will let you know
when I have their responses
With my best wishes
Yours sincerely
Mrs Betty Williams MP
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CB/SAJ PC NW 06 01
: Evelyn House,
17 November 2003 22 Windlesham Gardens,
Shoreham-by-Sea,
Mr Alan Bates West Sussex BN43 SAZ
GRO
‘veww.subpostmaster
General Secretary: COUN BAKER
Senior Assistant General Secretary
Kevin Davis
Assistant General Secretaries i
Kare Davis » Manity STODDART
Dear Mr Bates
CRAIG-Y-DON POST OFFICE
Thank you for your letter of 11 November. I can well understand your I
disappointment at the Federation's lack of response to your enquiry concerning {
matters at your post office.
I did submit an enquiry into Post Office Ltd about your case some little time ago as I
wanted to better understand the nature of the case against you, and to understand it
from POL’s point of view.
As yet I am awaiting a response from them and it is, therefore, difficult for me to
comment further. Please be assured that I will be in touch with you when I have
heard from Post Office Ltd. :
COLIN'BAKER ~~
General Secretary I
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fC Nilo OC 5 I
Mr C Baker Alan Bates
General Secretary i
National Federation of Subpostmaster
Evelyn House > I
22 Windlesham Gardens AAMT Fra res L
SHOREHAM BY SEA iL! hh)
BN43 SAZ I; 12 Nov 2003 {II
I III Tel/fa
Dear Mr Baker
Tam writing to you with regard to Craig-y-don Post Office further to my previous letters.
Post Office Ltd have now closed the office and I have to tell you I am very, very disappointed
with the lack of response to my plea for help and assistance from The National Federation of
Subpostmasters.
The post office ceased trading at 5.30pm, 5“ November 2003 and in the weeks prior to that I
made numerous telephone calls to your office, but to no avail, nobody ever responded. The
file I sent you in mid September about my case highlighted how the issue not only affected
me but also every Subpostmaster who runs a post office. The Horizon system is flawed and
Post Office Ltd are trying to hold Subpostmasters liable for system losses without allowing
full access to the system to check the data they have input.
As The Federation were not able to stand up to Post Office Ltd and support its member is this
issue, it subsequently allowed the Post Office to just take away our investment, livelihood
and life savings in one fell swoop. I have no doubt that Post Office Ltd are involved in a
major cover-up of the inadequacies of the Horizon system and I will continue, even as a voice
alone, to raise the profile of this issue and to have it investigated at the highest level.
de truly disappointed
~GRO
Alan Bates SS" VY
Ex Subpostmaster Craig-y-don Post Office
Copied to Gwynedd Branch
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Mrs B Williams MP
House of Commons
LONDON
SW10AA
11" November 2003
Removal of Craig-y-don Post Office from The Wool Post
Your Ref: C2331/41413
Dear Mrs Williams
Thank you for your letter dated 10" November 2003 and the copies of. responses you enclosed.
First I would like to comment on the response to you from Dave Barrett in which he states about
me, “we have been seeking a response from him as to whether he would be selling his business”. 1
have never once been asked this question by anyone at Post Office Ltd.
They did make an approach as to whether or not I would allow another Subpostmaster to continue
ona temporary basis at our premises. But I am sure you can appreciate that when this
‘organisation’ is taking away a major investment of ours as well as our livelihood with the effect
of wiping out our lifesavings, our willingness to help them out of the mess they have created is less
than forthcoming. It just goes to show how little in touch with the real world they are. I would
have gladly carried on providing the Post Office service at our premises until some future date if
they had asked, but they never did. This I would purely have undertaken for the sake of the local
community, not for Post Office Ltd.
The comments made in his letter about “lost confidence” etc., is really just a smokescreen to try
and justify their actions from their position. The real truth behind all this are the problems with
the Post Office Horizon system and the lengths that the Post Office will go to keep it covered up.
If this had not been the case, Post Office Ltd could have answered all my previous letters over the
past three years about liability and access, and we could have moved on. But they realised if they
entered into correspondence on access and liability the real extent of the system problems would
become exposed, so they decided to remove me a different way and are trying to hide behind the
phrase of a contractual issue.
With regard to the response you received from the Minister I can see that the Post Office is using
its ‘contractual issue’ ploy with him again, but he really needs to look into the Horizon issues. It is
Horizon which in one way or another is causing the problems.
My stance since the Horizon system was installed three years ago was that I was unable to accept
liability for system data until such time as I could access the system to check the data I had input.
Ihave yet to find a person who finds that unreasonable, other than the Post Office who have
refused to even recognise my query. There is nothing in the contract between myself and Post
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Office Ltd to say that I should, hence the only way to try remove me was under a clause where
they were not required to give a reason. During the time I had Craig-y-don post Office we had
invested tens of thousands of pounds improving the premises and post office facility and had been
growing business year on year.
Post Office Ltd are terrified about the real facts with Horizon being known and it seems they will
stop at nothing to keep them hidden. I would say now that we are getting into an area that the
Minister should be involved with.
I will offer a recent experience as an example, though as I and others struggle to obtain hard
information or replies, some of the detail may be corrected at a later time. A number of weeks ago
some poor advice received from the Post Office support helpline resulted in £600 relating toa
foreign currency purchase being entered onto the Horizon system wrongly, Over the following
weeks there were a number of telephone calls to and from the Post Office support team trying to
follow through on this incident.
The last phone-call I received from them on this matter was from the Post Office Problem
Management Unit in Barnsley (25 September 2003) when they requested that I print off a report
from the system to enable them to look for the detail of the currency transaction. I was instructed
to install a new till roll in a counter printer and run the printer overni ight, printing off every
transaction from all three till positions for the whole week in which the currency transaction had
happened. The resulting till-rofl was to be sent to them and they would go through the thousands
of transactions on it line by line to try and locate the currency transaction. All this had to happen
relatively quickly as after 30 days all the data is lost from the computer and also there is no way
for their department to access the data at our post office even though the Horizon system is
networked.
So if you now return to my stance about being held liable for data I am unable to check, the fact
that the data is only in existence for 30 days but the liability Post Office Ltd are trying to impose is
timeless. Perhaps you can appreciate why Post Office Ltd refuse to discuss this issue, preferring to
keep it hidden.
This really does need to be investigated at the highest level. I have other examples of problems
and have heard many other stories from Subpostmaster and others. I firmly believe this is only the
tip of an iceberg about the appalling condition of the Horizon system is in, and I am hoping that
my website will encourage others to come forward and document their experiences,
Yours sincerely
Alan Bates
Ex Subpostmaster Craig-y-don Post Office
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HOUSE OF COMMONS
LONDON SWIA 0AA
BETTY WILLIAMS AS/MP
Aelod Seneddol Llafur Etholaeth Conwy
Labour Member of Parliament for Conwy
Mr Alan Bates
My ref: €2331/41413 - please quote in reply
10" November 2003
Dear Mr Bates
Thank you for your letter of 27" October 2003 which you had faxed to my office on 4"
November 2003
As you know, I wrote to Mr A Leighton, Chairman of The Royal Mail Group. Enclosed is a
copy of reply dated 29" October 2003 from Mr Dave Barrett, Head of Commercial Urban
Area Wales, The Marches and Merseyside. I expressed my dissatisfaction with this response.
T also discussed the matter with the DTI and later wrote to the Minister. Enclosed is a copy of
reply dated 5" November 2003 from Mr Stephen Timms MP, Minister for Energy, e-
Commerce and Postal Services. The Minister explains the Government’s role in post office
matters and why he cannot intervene in a contractual dispute between a sub-postmaster and
Post Office Ltd. 1 am sorry about this.
I can assure you however that L am continuing with my efforts to reinstate a service at Craig-
y-Don as quickly as possible.
With best wishes.
irs Betty Williams MP
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§.Wov. 2003 17:22 Stephen Tiams EMinister-t Vic St No.B2B4 Pp. 2
°
Dts
CLSBE.
~ Stephen Timms MP.
SS November 2003 ANOPOSTAL senviees, oMMERCE
Mre Betty Williams MP R= CRIVER
House of Commons K hint
PONDON a5 Nov 2003
SWIWO0AA sethenmeee pans
‘Your RefC2331 —
or
Thauk you for your faxed note earlier today, following up on your telephone
conversation with my Assistant Private Secretary, regarding your concerns about Post
Office Ltd’s handling of a contractual disagreement with Mr Alan Bates, the sub-
postmaster of the Craig-y-don Post Office in Llandudno. I am sorry to hear that you
have not yet received a satisfactory response from Allan Leighton.
‘You ask me to state the Government’s position on this particular contractual
disagreement and J am happy to do so. Post Office Ltd, which operates as a separate
company within the Royal Mail Group, is responsible for contracts with sub-
postmasters. A sub-postmaster’s contract is a commercial arrangement between the
individual sub-postmaster and Post Office Ltd.
Conflicts over contractual matters are issues for the sub-postmaster and Post Office Ltd
~ with ultimate recourse through the legal system ifnecessary. The Government's role
in post office matters is confined to broad issues of general policy and overall financial
Vom anycng te Red ak wk ee Avot ts hore
“ars eurer r
STEPHEN TIMMS
Department of Trade and Industry
V 865
1 Victoria Stropt
London SW1H OBT
mpsttimms¢
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Zp1L¢- 2
Celtic Court
Tremains Road
D Bridgend
RECEIVED CF31 1TZ
05 NOV 2003
29 October 2003
Mrs Betty Williams MP
House of Commons
LONDON °
SW1A 0AA 7 ey _
Your ref : C2331/4 1024
“an essential part of everyday life” www.postoffice.co.uk
Dear Mrs Williams,
I have been asked to reply to your letter of 22 October 2003, to Allan Leighton
about Craig y Don Post Office® branch temporary closure.
Briefly, we have given notice to Mr Bates, the present subpostmaster, that we
are withdrawing from our contract with him. This is because we have lost
confidence in his willingness to conduct the job in the manner expected. We -
gave the contractual notice period of 3 months, which ends on 5 November
2003. The branch will close for business at 17.30 on 3 November, to enable
us to complete a final audit and decommission the branch the following day
before his contract expires:
It is not our wish to see this branch clgse, and ever since We gave Mr Bates
‘ notice, we:have beeh seeking a:response from him as.to whether he would be
selling his‘business (thus allowing us the opporiuiity t& cdntinué thé service
from the samé location, albeit with 4.new subpostmaster) or if hot whether he
would be willing.to make his, premises.available for a temporary replacement
whilst a permanent appointment could be made. We have a person ready to
step in as a temporary replacement, but it was only this week that Mr Bates
finally informed us he was not willing to allow this to happen.
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wuimber: 21S454G
London ECIV 9NN
The Post Office and the Post Office symbot are
registered trade marks of Pos: Office Ltd in the
UK and other count
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Meantime, we have been advertising for a permanent replacement and
currently have several interested parties with premises in the immediate
vicinity. Unfortunately, it will not be possible for any of them to be in a position
to take over on 5 November, indeed it is unlikely that anyone will do so until
the New Year. But ! am optimistic that we will be able to make an
appointment very soon.
! acknowledge the concems of your constituents about the temporary
withdrawal of service. Indeed several have written directly to us in similar
vein. Please assure them we have been, and are doing, all we can to __
maintain service here and apologise that due to circumstances beyond our
contro] that is not possible. If you personally can bring any pressure to bear
on Mr Bates to allow the temporary use of his premises, I would be grateful as
this would prevent the interruption of service we are facing. Meanwhile, we
are ensuring that facilities and staffing are increased.at the main branch in
Vaughan St to cope with the extra business caused by the Craig y Don
closure.
I will ensure you are informed when a permanent appointment is made, as we
will be consulting about the change in premises. Meantime, please let me
know if I can help further.
Yours sincerely,
GRO >
DAVE BARRETT _
Head of Commercial Urban Area
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Mrs B Williams MP Alan Bates
House of Commons H :
LONDON ; I
on ‘GRO
27" October 2003 '
Removal of Craig-y-don Post Office from The Wool Post
Your Ref: C2331 i
Dear Mrs Williams
Thank you for seeing me in Llandudno the other day and your subsequent letter informing me you
have written to Allen Leighton again.
In that letter you mention your concern to ensure a post office is retained in Craig-y-don, which
was one of the two items I have raised with you. There was no mention in your letter about the
treatment J have been subjected to by Post Office Ltd. Will you be also be pursing this with the
DTI if that is the correct route or should contact them directly myself?
Yours sincerely
Alan Bates {
Subpostmaster Craig-y-don Post Office
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CBISAS. PC NW0801 \ FH S P
Evelyn House,
16 October 2003 22 Windlesham Gardens,
Shoreham-by-Sea,
Mr Alan Bates West Sussex BN43 SAZ
' G RO i ‘wwwsubpostmasters.org.uk
General Secretary: COUN BAKER
Leen ponent i Senior Assistant General Secretary
Kevin Dav
Assistant General Secretaries
Kare Davis « Mani STOODAKT
Dear Mr Bates
Thank you for your facsimile letter of 14 October referring to your earlier letter of 18 I
September.
1 can confirm that the matter is receiving attention. I have already made enquires
and will respond to you as soon as possible.
COLIN BAKER
General Secretary
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/ 14-OCT-BS 11242 shora_ P.aL
Mr C Baker Alan Bates
General Secretary
: National Federation of Subpostinaster I
: Evelyn House i
22 Windlesham Gardens
SHOREHAM BY SEA
va BN43 5AZ. ;
: . Tetrf
i 14" October 2003
By fax 10; 01273 465403
i
Dear Mr Baker 1
I wrote to you on the 18” Seothmber 2003 enclosing a file of a dispule I am engaged in with
Post Office Limited, H
! i
Lam still awaiting a response trom the Federation and it is only a few weeks away from the
termination date, The local prdss will be carrying an article on this matler over the next few
days as The Post Office have made no provision to provide continuity of services localty
after that date and customers are not very happy
Alan Bates’ \J ” I
Subpostriaster Craig-y-don Pa Office
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Mr C Baker
General Secretary
National Federation of Subpostmaster
Evelyn House
22 Windlesham Gardens
SHOREHAM BY SEA
BN43 SAZ
Dear Mr Baker
I have enclosed a detailed file of a dispute I am engaged in with Post Office Limited
regarding accessibility and liability of the data held by the Horizon system. This affects all
Federation members and because I have taken a stand on it, Post Office Limited are trying to
take my livelihood away.
Whether it takes 1 month, 1 year or 10 years I will continue to fight Post Office Limited on
this issue. The website referred to is turning into a far bigger package than was originally
envisaged, and when it is launched shortly it will bring the issue into the national arena.
Put simply, Post Office Limited are trying to alter the terms of the contract to make me (and
all Subpostmasters) liable for unlimited Horizon system losses without the right to access and
check the data I have put in the system. The accompanying documentation spells it all out
quite clearly, Post Office Limited will not actually address the core item relating to the issue
and the legal advice I have been given is that they will not do so because ‘they do not have a
leg to stand on’ as I am in full compliance of my contact.
Regarding the file enclosed, the notes accompanying the letter to Allen Leighton lists in
chronological order the majority of the documentation. The letter to Philip Green of Capita
Assistance on 6" September 2003 does the same to the rest the correspondence.
There is a local branch Federation meeting at the end of this month at which John Peberdy
will be present and before the meeting date I will bring Dave Foster, the Branch Secretary, up
to speed. At that meeting I am intending to hand out leaflets summarising the dispute to all
members attending.
In writing to you and making you aware of this issue I would very much appreciate the
support of the Federation in at least the following way. That is to ask all Federation members
to not support Post Office Limited by operating my office. As I mentioned earlier I will fight
for the return of my office and to recover my investment, regardless of the time it will take.
GRO
Ala Bates (QS
eel tn Post Office
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Me
ATION
CB/DD PC NW 06 01 é é F SP
Evelyn House,
14 January 2002 22 Windlesham Gardens, I
Shoreham-by-Sea,
West Sussex BN43 5AZ
Mr. Alan Bates
wewrw-subpostmastersorg.uk
General Secretary: Coun Baker
Assistant General Secretaries
Kevin Davs + Kare Davis
Dear Mr Bates
Thank you for your letter of 7 January 2002 concerning the difficulties you have
experienced which appear to be linked to the Horizon migration process.
I am sure that it is time that the matter was resolved and.I trust that it will not be long
now before the amounts can be removed from the Suspense Account.
Please let me know if I can be of further assistance, although I am sure that David
Foster will render every assistance possible. : ;
Yours sincerely
Re COLIN BAKER
General Secretary w 49 I
A helping hand for SubPostmasters...everywhere!
Mr C Baker
General Secretary
National Federation of Subpostmaster
Evelyn House
22 Windlesham Gardens
SHOREHAM BY SEA
BN43 SAZ
net)
Dear Mr Baker
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7" January 2002
For information I have enclosed some documents relating to Horizon and losses over a period
of a few weeks when the system was upgraded in 2000
T have been keeping David Foster, the Gwynedd Branch Secretary fully informed on the
matter, but my letter dated 7" January 2002 to Post Office Limited is meant to clear out the
matter one way or another.
1 am not expecting your office to take any action at the moment but I thought it advisable to
at least forward you copies of my correspondence.
pre
Streets
Craig-y-don Post Office
Mr Glenn Chester
Post Office Limited
Celtic Court
Tremaines Road
BRIDGEND
CF31 1TZ
7™ January 2002
Reference: Horizon Faults
Dear Mr Chester
As you are aware the cash account for this office is still showing an amount of
£1041.86 in the suspense account, This cumulative figure was placed in the suspense
account towards the end of 2000 and I have on doubt at all that it was due to errors in
the Horizon system over a number of weeks at that time. In my letters to Gerry Hayes
dated 19" December 2000 and 16" July 2001, neither of which did I receive a written
reply to, I gave further details on this matter.
Ireally do think that enough time has now passed for Post Office Limited to have
resolved this issue and that unless J receive a written comment to the contrary by the
end of this month I will take it that this matter is closed. When I signed my contract
with Post Office Counters I did not sign to accept the liabilities arising from the
shortcomings of a less than adequate Horizon system, all liabilities from such a
system are clearly the responsibility of Post Office Limited or ICL Pathway.
Allowing this issue to drag on not only continues the stress and strain of the original
problems but I fear also continually casts doubt over my honesty and that of my staff.
Therefore I would greatly appreciate it if you would bring this matter to a head in
order that we can move on,
Your sincerely
Alan Bates
Subpostmaster Craig-y-don Post Office
Copies to:
Mr D Foster, Gwynedd Branch Secretary National Federation of Subpostmasters
Mr C Baker, General Secretary National Federation of Subpostmasters
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Mr Gerry Hayes Alan Bates 00,
Retail Network Manager i H
Post Office Network I G RO i
60 Deiniol Road i I
LL57 1AA
18" July 2001
Dear Gerry
In reply to your letter dated 16" July 2001 I would like to draw your attention to the
letter I sent you on the 19" December 2000. It related the problems with Horizon
which I believe led to the losses at that time.
As I have said to you and every other person that has ever visited with regard to the
problems with the Horizon system, it is nigh on impossible to access the data I as a
subpostmaster need in order to track problems or accept responsibility for the
processing through this office. It is not that the data is not within the system, and it is
not that Chesterfield can access this data in many other ways, But I as a front line user
need to be given the tools, such as a report writer package which can access files on a
read only basis, to enable me to look for problems, duplications or errors, easily and
effectively, The alternative, and this seems to be the essence of your letter, is that I
should subsidise the shortcomings of this system.
I hope this clarifies my position and answers your letter.
Yours sincerely
Alan Bates
Subpostmaster Craig-y-Don Post Office
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Mr Gerry Hayes
Retail Network Manager
Post Office Network
60 Deiniol Road
BANGOR
LLS7 1AA
19" December 2000
Reference: Horizon Faults
Dear Mr Hayes
Further to our telephone conversation on the morning of Thursday 14th December
after the problems with our balance the previous day, I thought it prudent to confirm
the details to you in writing.
The balance at this office on the Wednesday the 13 December was not only very
stressful but also very worrying. The evidence that appeared during that day proved
beyond any doubt that the Horizon system cannot be relied upon to give 100%
accurate figures. The problem which was highlighted to this office that day was with
regard to Giro Deposits and at one point the weekly returns were showing a variance,
to the addition of the daily returns, of over £6000.
The whole of that afternoon was spent making a number of phone calls to the
different helplines, one of almost 1 hour long, and kept two of the three terminals
producing nothing but reports, at a peak trading time when we had queues out of the
door; though eventually I did manage to track down the majority of the money. That
said the cash account for that week is still showing a shortage of £1182.81. Ican
without any doubt attribute £368.50 of that to Giro items that have been double
entered and that I am unable to track because of the way Horizon is set up, Of the
remaining £814.31 shortage, I am presuming that £409.15 of that is the shortage from
the previous week that has become added to the total. This leaves a difference
£405.16 which I am unsure of where it comes from. It may well be a Giro system
error as might be the previous weeks £409.15 shortage or it may be something else.
Unfortunately the current Horizon system does not let you access previous
transactions adequately enough to track problems with shorts or overs at the end of
the week.
Having spoken to the local Branch Secretary of the Federation of Subpostmasters on
these problems and realising the problems I am experiencing are being found by
others around the country I really do believe it would be unreasonable for Post Office
Network to hold me liable for losses on the cash account until such time as 100%
guarantee can be given about the accuracy of Horizon.
Thad been hoping to leave any comments in writing about Horizon until the Office is
quieter in January and then write a detailed submission about the cost we have
incurred with it (around £1000), the problems with the counter (staff working with
money and stamp books on chairs or on the shelf behind them), the very poor layout
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of the screen and menus, the slowness of the printers, the lack of report writing
facilities, the chaotic end of day and end of week procedures and the problems of
having to do ‘office work’ at a terminal on the counter. Given time I shall produce
the report for you,
Please do not think that I am being nothing but negative about the system, I am a firm
believer in the way forward being through such a system. But bear in mind my
comments are made by someone who has had considerable experience of EPOS
systems before joining the Post Office in 1998, 1 first began working with them in
1986 and have used a variety of systems, I have been involved with running an
assessment program on one system and have developed and implemented a large site
specific package with a software development company. So I do have some insight
into these systems and I would gladly be willing to offer constructive feedback if
asked.
With regard to the current deficit showing on our cash account for last week how do
you want me to progress this week’s balance? Should I just roll it through and see
what happens, or what?
I would be very grateful for any guidance or assistance you can offer on this matter.
Your sincerely
Alan Bates
Subpostmaster Craig-y-Don Post Office