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Record of Taped Interview
Short Descriptive Notes
Record of Taped Interview Summary
Full Taped Interview Transcript (delete as applicable)
Person interviewed: ELENA HERD (EH) Exhibit No:
Place of Interview: INTERVIEW ROOM AT STOCKPORT Number of pages: 19
BRANCH OFFICE
Signature of interviewer producing record
Date of Interview: 7.7.11 Time commenced: 11.30
Tape reference no.: 074346 Time concluded: 12.14
Duration of Interview: = 44 MINUTES
Interviewing Officers: © ANDREW WISE (AW) STEVEN BRADSHAW (SB)
Other persons present:
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Usual introductions made, caution administered and explained. Forms
GS001 and GS003 completed. EH declines the presence of a Post Office
friend or Solicitor.
7.55 AW So on the 16" June there was a number of rejected labels that were put
through the system where the actual label was put on an item, what can
you tell me about them?
EH I rejected the label to cover up a loss that I had in my stock.
AW Ok so in front of me now I've got photocopies of 3 items which we'll call
AW3, AW4 and AW5 and also a rejected label summary for that day
which is AW6 and the three photocopies of packets that were posted by
yourself or by a customer through your position and yourself, they were
done by user name EHEO01, can you confirm that that is yourself?
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EH Yes.
AW So these three items can you just explain how you've put them through
the system for me please?
EH I did a normal transaction and spoilt, well rejected a label and finished it
to stamps.
AW And what did you then do with the label?
EH Put it on the package.
9.38 AW What did you do with the money for the value of the label?
EH It stayed in the stock.
AW And what was the reason for that?
EH Like I just told you I tried to cover up a loss that I had on my stock.
AW Ok. So can you just tell me how you account for the postage stamps
that go through the system?
10.17 EH Reverse the stamps.
AW And when would you do that?
EH I don’t know.
AW Ok so on the date of the 16", on the spoilt postage label report which is
AW6 there's a total of 1,2,3,4,5,6, 6 that was rejected by yourself, 3 of
which the photocopy identifies the label number against the report so
did you treat those 6 items the same way?
EH No I don’t spoil every label.
EH Well just looking at this report that we printed off the Horizon system
which details all your transactions for the 16" this will be called AW7,
this details all the postage labels that were rejected for that day along
with a stamp ordinary transaction that’s the same amount as the
postage labels where you've settled to stamps afterwards so that’s
happened on 9 occasions on the 16" so were all them 9 occasions you
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rejected the postage labels settling it to stamps and still using the label
on the system?
11.52 EH I don’t know.
11,57 SB On the 16" right Andrew's pointed out to the 6 right and that’s when it's
first come to the attention of your Branch Manager and the Assistant
Branch Manager, a further 3 had gone off from then, now the 16" isn’t
that far, that long ago it’s only a couple of weeks now it’s a fairly simple
question of how many labels you actually done that day and what you've
rejected?
EH I don’t remember.
SB Ok you don’t remember what you rejected right so just to take you a
step back before Andrew goes on the to labels, he said, Andrew asked
you a question about what you'd done with the stamps and you said you
reversed the stamps out ok and then he then asked you when did you
do that yeah?
EH At some point during the day.
12.52 SB Ok before you went home, after you done the labels?
EH Before I went home.
SB Before you went home and how did you know how much to reverse out
in the stamps?
EH Declared the stamps.
13.12 SB And the stamps showed you.
EH Showed over.
SB Showed over so you took the difference between what you should have
to what you took out?
EH Yeah.
SB Ok and these were to cover a loss yeah?
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EH Yeah.
SB In the stock. How much was the loss?
13.43 EH 36 something.
SB 36 something loss?
EH Yeah 30 odd.
SB Is that the only loss on this day ‘cos we're just talking about the 16"
now?
EH Yeah.
SB So you had a loss that day of £36.00 and you reversed these, rejected
these labels to cover that loss?
EH Yeah.
14.20 AW Right so on the 16" these were rejected in FF stock which it shows on
that particular report there and it gives you the stock unit ID which were
all done by yourself EHEOO1 on FF stock and the till ID is the positions,
that’s position number 6 so this £30 loss when did that occur in that
stock unit?
EH I don't know.
AW That day the day before?
EH Probably that day ‘cos I wasn't in it the day before.
14.55 AW How did you realise there come to be a loss in that stock unit?
EH Declared the cash.
AW At what time did you do that?
EH Don’t know (indistinct) work.
AW You see FF stock was balanced the day before and it actually balanced so
it couldn't be previous to that.
EH No.
AW So, and also FF was balanced afterwards and it balanced so there was no
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other loss in there for that particular day but if there was a loss, if you
were trying to recover money for a loss, that loss would show up when it
was balanced after you were suspended.
EH (indistinct) ‘Cos I reversed the stamps it didn’t show.
15.58 AW When somebody else balanced that stock unit if you're saying you've lost
£30 then that loss would show up when the next person balanced it
because they would correct any stamp discrepancies, they would declare
the cash and the loss would show up so why did the loss not show up
after you'd left if there was a loss in there?
EH Because I've done the cash, I've declared the cash and the stamps before.
AW I don’t know what you mean by before?
EH Before I was suspended when we were doing work.
AW Right so when you say you declared the cash and the stock before you
were suspended, did it balance then?
EH I think so yeah.
AW Welt we'll just leave the 16" for the moment then and we'll go back to the
15" we'll call this identification AW8, this is the 15" June this is in a
different stock unit this is in a different counter position, this is still
yourself as the user ID 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 rejected postage labels we've got
on that day on the 15" all with the corresponding postage ordinary entry
and then later in the day a reversal of postage ordinaries so can you
explain what had happened on the 45" in this stock unit?
17.53 EH Did I put all them labels on the packages?
AW Well you've got corresponding postage ordinary entries to support the
amount, the label was rejected and you're reversing out stamp ordinary
later in the day for similar amounts so that would indicate that yes you've
put rejected labels on all them packages. Can you explain that?
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SB Elena I know it's difficult but it’s fairly straight forward there. You've
already conferred that EHEO01 is your user ID and as far as we're aware
nobody else knows your password is that correct?
EH Correct.
SB So if nobody knows your password only you can open up the system, all
transactions performed on EHEOO1 must have been performed by
yourself during them days. Now only you know the majority of rejected
labels what you've done with them right. What we're saying based on the
evidence in front of us is that you've rejected a label, put it on a packet,
put that packet through the post, the customer's gone away paying
whatever the amount of postage is, you've probably give him a receipt and
in order to get the balance you've taken the money out of the till, in effect
stolen the money.
19.44 EH I didn’t take the money out of the till.
SB So Andrew's asked you a number of times to explain why the money's
isn’t in the till, can you give us an explanation now?
EH As I said I tried to cover up a loss I have a loss.
AW Is this another loss or is this the same loss?
EH Another one it’s another stock.
20.08 AW How much was that loss for?
EH I don’t remember.
AW And when did that loss appear in the stock unit?
EH The day before.
AW The day before so you see they total around £50 or £60 worth of rejected
labels for that day and you reversed out £62.00 worth of rejected labels.
EH There are other reasons, well there are other reasons to reverse stamps.
AW We're not disputing that but the pattern falls where you reject a label, you
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put it through as ordinary stamps and you reverse out later in the day.
Now when I’ve gone through this report if there’s no corresponding stamp
entry because we do accept that labels do reject and can happen to
anybody but there wouldn't be a corresponding stamp entry because you
would reprint the label and there are cases where you do that where you
just reprint the label and you don’t put the stamps through so them I've
not shown because they look like genuine transactions. These
transactions follow the pattern of you putting the label through, rejecting
it, settling to stamps, putting the label on the package and then reversing
the stamps out later. So all the ones I’m showing you on this report for
the 16", 15" June follow that pattern and they total around £60 worth of
rejected labels that we think you've taken that money for out the till.
21.43 EH I don’t take the money out of the till.
SB Can you explain to us then why you're having this daily loss of about £50
or £60 then?
EH I can't.
AW So have you had losses previous to that?
EH Yeah.
AW And how much are these losses for how regular?
EH I don't know, sometimes.
AW Is it every day?
EH No.
AW And how long has it been going on for?
EH A few weeks.
AW So for a few weeks you've been having losses in your stock unit and to try
and recover that money you've been putting postage labels through
rejecting them putting through as stamps so that in effect balances the
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loss that you've been having that you say has been happening for a few
weeks.
23.02 SB Did you pick on any particular label?
23.19 EH Special.
SB Why, why specials?
EH Don't know.
SB You see I think you're just lying to us Elena I just think you're just,
whatever you're saying you're just saying anything that comes into your
mind and you're not answering the questions and you think that by just
giving us any little old answer we'll just say fine. Unfortunately what
Andrew's shown you needs an explanation and you know just to remind
you of the caution you know if the matter does go to a Court and you give
a different explanation they're going to wonder why you didn’t tell us the
truth at the beginning. So would you like to tell us the truth now why you
rejected these labels and used them ‘cos I don’t believe for one minute
and I’m certain Andrew doesn't believe for one minute that you were
having a daily loss of £60 so you just thought, well I'll reject a few labels
and leave the money, I don’t believe that, Andrew doesn't believe that so
would you like to tell us the truth now?
EH That's the truth.
AW Ok we'll move onto the 14'" June then which we'll call this report AW9
which again lists the rejected labels for EHEOO1 user ID, again EE stock
unit till number 7 so for the 14"" June we've got 1, 2, 3.4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10,
11, 12 rejected labels following the same pattern where you reject the
label, you sell stamps through then there’s a reversal of postage stamps
later in the day. What is the explanation for that particular day?
25.24 EH Same.
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AW The same so when you say a few weeks you've been having these losses
can you be more precise with that? So this happened on the 16" June, 2
weeks before that, that’s a few weeks that would put it to the beginning of
June is that around the time where the losses started?
EH Yeah I think it’s kind of snowballed out of my control.
AW So from the beginning of June this snowballed out of your control. How
did it snowball out of control?
EH I don’t know, I don’t know where the losses came.
SB Just to go back again you see these losses that are snowballing out of
control on a daily basis, when did you first notice each day that you were
suddenly having a loss and how much it was? Right what time do you
normally come in for work?
EH In the morning.
SB Yeah right so you come in the morning if we say the 16" June what time
did you come in for work that day?
EH 8.50
SB 8.50 so you come in for 9 o'clock when the branch opens and you carried
on working ok. When did you notice that you were having a loss, when
did you know that your money was down?
EH I was paranoid that I was putting transaction correctly.
SB Sorry?
27.13 EH I was afraid I was putting transaction correctly a couple of weeks ago, well
not a couple yeah a few weeks ago I gave this woman £200 extra you
know just go to clear it off the stock paid it out.
AW Which stock was that in?
EH 5.
AW EE or FF?
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EH EE.
AW EE so you had that in EE you had another one in FF on the 15", on the
16", now the next report well the next 2 for the 9"" and the 8" June
which we shall call AW10 and 11, now these ones happen in the Bureau
de Change stock unit so you've just told us you had a £200 loss from
giving too much money to a customer in EE but you're rejecting labels in
FF and you're rejecting labels in the Bureau de Change stock unit, again
over these 2 days well 9 rejected label transactions following the same
pattern, you reject the label you put stamps ordinary through and there’s
reversals against postage transactions. Over these 2 days the 8" and 9"
June also the 7'" June which is AW12, the 6" June which is AW13 all
done in Bureau de Change stock unit. So now you're across 3 different
stock units so your loss of £200 in EE.
EH No that has got nothing to do with Bureau.
AW But you're rejecting labels in the Bureau stock unit. If your loss was in EE
why are you rejecting labels in the Bureau stock unit? You see what's
happening here Elena you're telling us one thing and we're going back and
disproving that so in effect you're lying to us, you're telling us one story
we're moving on disproving that and you're lying again and again. All this
is doing is picking holes in your little story that you're telling us. Did you
take the money out of Bureau de change stock unit for these rejected
labels?
29.54 EH No.
AW Why are you rejecting labels in the Bureau de Change stock unit if your
loss is in EE?
EH ‘Cos Bureau had a loss Bureau always has a loss I was supposed to
balance it that week probably.
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AW So are you the only person that works out of Bureau?
EH No it's a shared stock.
AW So you suspect there's a loss in that stock unit that a number of people.
EH Don’t suspect it’s, you never know that it’s a loss.
AW So was that loss your fault?
EH No not necessarily.
SB Elena can I just take you back to finding out these losses. I accept you
know EE stock you said you give £200 to a customer too much, can you
remember what that date was?
EH Saturday.
SB Saturday when in May, June?
EH I can’t remember.
SB Ok. Just to go back so if that’s in EE that would in theory be cleared up
wouldn't it because on the 16" June you were working out of FF stock so
let's just concentrate on the 16" June first. You come into work at 9
o'clock you got your stock out and you started serving customers right.
How did you know you had a loss in that stock that day to prompt you to
reject labels and keep the postage whether you've taken it out of the
drawer or whether you've left it in the drawer, how did you know you had
aloss. You're sitting there serving, was it busy that day?
31.43 EH Fairly.
SB Fairly busy not a minute to yourself. What time did you go on your
break?
EH I don’t remember exact time.
SB Ok irrespective of what time you went on your break, how long did you
have for your break?
EH 15 minutes,
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SB 15 minutes right so just tell us right, the time’s coming up so we'll give
you a break at 10.45 right. You finish serving a customer round about
10.45 what do you do, what did you do for your break?
EH Went downstairs had a coffee.
SB Right so what did you do on the counter, you'd finish serving your
customer it’s 10.45 it's time for your break? Ok we'll help you along the
way did you lock your drawers?
EH No.
SB Right you left the drawers open?
EH Well.
SB Yeah you left the drawers there ok?
EH Closed them.
SB Closed them ok. The screen did you lock the screen?
32.44 EH I will have done yes.
SB So you've served the customer, closed the drawers, locked the screen and
got up and walked away?
EH Yes.
SB Yeah. 15 minutes later you come back you put your password back in the
screen and you called your next customer opened the drawers and carried
on serving yeah?
EH Yes.
SB What time is your lunch? Can’t remember?
EH Can't remember exact times.
SB Ok so we'll make your lunch 1.15. How long did you get for your lunch?
EH Half an hour.
SB Half an hour so 1.15 you're serving a customer you finished them, it’s
now time for your lunch what did you do the same?
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EH Same.
SB Closed the drawers locked the screen go away on your lunch come back at
1.45 put your password back in the screen called your next customer
yeah and carried on serving. Do you get an afternoon break?
EH Yes,
SB Yes so we'll make your afternoon break 3.15, 15 minutes again?
EH Yes.
SB Did we do exactly the same thing finished serving your customer?
EH Yes.
SB Closed the drawers?
EH Yes.
33.57 SB Locked the screen?
EH Yeah.
SB Go on your break, come back, password in, open the drawers, ask for the
next customer yeah is that what you done on that day?
EH Yes.
SB And that what you've done most days?
EH Yes.
SB Ok what I can’t work out now is how you knew you had the loss because
you haven't at any time you said you're busy, how did you know you had a
loss? Have you got an explanation ‘cos you haven't done a cash dec you
haven't done anything else ‘til the end of the night and we can get data
and we can find out when your cash decs are done as well, we can find
out when cash declarations are done if required so as you've gone on your
breaks and you didn’t do any count your money or do anything, print off
any Horizon reports, how did you know you had a loss on the 16" to start
taking money? You didn’t have a loss did you?
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EH I did have a loss.
SB I don’t believe you ‘cos we've just gone through one day of working life of
what you normally do and there is no way in there that you would know
you would have loss or you've got to tell me you gave a customer too
much money. You see if everything was above board and you had an
explanation you would be speaking to us you wouldn't be sitting there in
silence and as Andrew said to you every time you're asked the question
you're giving us an answer and we're picking holes in your answer and
then we're back to square one and you're just telling us the same old
same old, I've had a loss and this is what I’ve done but we've just gone
through your daily, your day, ‘cos all that happened after you've had your
afternoon break or before your afternoon break is you got suspended
because other things come to the fore and they checked your stock and
there was no loss in the stock was there so how did you have a loss, know
you had a loss on that day to enable you to do rejected labels, steal the
money off the customer ‘cos that’s what you've done ‘cos they think
they're paying for the service and the fact is they haven't, you've put
rejected labels on and package has gone through so how did you know
you had that loss to be able to do that? Same question applies to which
ones did Andrew ask you about the 15"?
36.55 AW The 15" in stock EE.
SB The 14" in, was that the Bureau?
AW Stock EE, no the Bureau was the 6", the 7", the 8", the 9" June.
SB Right so the question is how did you know you had a loss each day in all
them?
AW ‘Cos you know ‘cos you do a cash dec.
SB No no we just, when did you do a cash dec then?
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EH Did a cash dec on the 16".
SB Yeah fine yeah what time?
37.37 EH Middle of the day.
SB Middle of the day and what do you call the middle of the day. Middle of
the day could be dinner time if we start work at midnight, middle of the
day could be 2 o'clock if we started work at 9 o'clock so when do you think
on the 16" you done your first cash dec?
EH When we did our work round about 1 o'clock.
SB 1 o'clock round about 1 o'clock. Would you say before 1 or after 1?
EH After 1.
SB After’ I'm sure Andrew's about to tell you now what time you done your
first rejected label on the 16"?
AW The first one went through at 12.44, 13.01, 13.06, 13.10, 13.41 then all
through the afternoon as well.
SB So you've done it before 1 o'clock. I know it’s, we're being maybe picky on
the time but I didn’t think you done a cash dec.
EH I did the cash dec on that day.
SB At round about 1 o'clock?
EH Slightly later I start doing work and then do the cash dec.
SB Yeah you normally do, by doing work do you mean doing up your daily
reports?
EH Yes.
SB Right and you do them at 1 o'clock?
EH Do them when we're relatively quiet.
SB At 1 o'clock?
EH (Sighs)
SB It’s alright sitting there and breathing heavy and (indistinct), it’s important
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either to prove your story ‘cos that’s all you're telling us it’s a story to me.
Are you saying that you done up all your daily work ‘cos we can soon solve
that because all your daily work would be downstairs so you're saying
you've done all your daily work up at 1 o'clock and you done a cash dec
and you went “oh I'm out, I'll just start pinching some money from the
rejected labels to make the money right” is that what you're saying? Or
did you do your work up when you normally do your work up towards the
end of the working day?
39.49 EH I really can’t remember what time we did the work up.
SB What time would you normally do your work up?
EH We do it at different time when we're quiet.
SB What time would you normally do your work up by being quiet, what time
do you normally do them up?
EH Well normally about 3.
SB Right 3 o'clock isn’t 1 o'clock is it?
EH No.
SB And I would have a guess and I stand to be corrected and Andrew may
know a little bit more about this than me but I would say the work would
normally, earliest is probably 4 o'clock unless you're finishing early. What
time did you finish on the Friday?
EH It was a Thursday.
SB Sorry on the Thursday ‘cos the Friday you got suspended didn’t you so on
the Thursday what time or that week, what were you working that week?
EH 4 o'clock.
SB 4 o'clock is normal finishing time?
EH No.
SB No.
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EH About 4 o'clock is when I finished that day.
41.18 AW We got as far back as the 6'" June, earlier you said you think it’s been
going on for a couple of weeks a few weeks you said so that might take us
to the beginning of June maybe the end of May that’s a few weeks, is that
accurate? The next report I’ve got which is AW14, again it’s a print off of
Horizon transactions this covers the period of the 31° May to the 4" June,
again it's your user ID, stock unit is EE through, position number 7 and
we've got 3 pages worth of rejected transactions where a postage labels
gone through where we have postage stamps reversed out later in the
day and the exact same pattern this is from the 31° May to the 4" June
so we've started bulking them together rather than doing individual days.
Can you give me an explanation for that period. Does this fit into your
when your losses started snowballing out of control?
EH Yes.
AW There's 41 rejected labels over that 4, 5, day period. Was that to cover a
loss in stock EE or was you taking the money?
EH To cover a loss I was not taking the money.
Master tape seal signed on number 074346
Interview terminated at 12.14
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