Working Group for the Initial Complaint Review and Case Mediation Scheme
14 November 2014
MATRIX CHAMBERS
Attendees
Sir Anthony Hooper (Chair)
Alan Bates (JFSA)
Kay Linnell (JFSA)
Ron Warmington (Second Sight)
lan Henderson (Second Sight)
Chris Holyoak (Second Sight)
Chris Aujard (Post Office)
Belinda Crowe (Post Office)
Angela Van Den Bogerd (Post Office)
Tom Wechsler (Post Office)
Andy Parsons (Bond Dickinson)
Agenda
1. Minutes of 17 October meeting
2. Letter from JFSA
3. Progress on Part Two Report
4. Standing case agenda:
4.1 Priority Cases
4.2 Bankruptcy cases
4.3 Post Office investigation progress
4.4 Cases with Second Sight to review PO investigation reports
MINUTE
4.5 Cases Second Sight have reported on
(a) Proposal for Deferred mediation (Second Sight)
(b) Updating applicants where there is a delay in reaching Working Group
decision
4.6 Cases that have been passed to CEDR
4.7 Queries from applicants/advisors
4.8 AOB
5. Cases for decision:
Second Sight recommend mediation:
M003, MOOS, M013, M018, M021, M039, M063, M078, M126
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1. Minutes of 17 October
The minutes of the last meeting were agreed.
2. Letter from JFSA
Alan Bates said that he had written to the Chair to set out JFSA’s concerns about the
Scheme and the Working Group. He had done so for the record. The following points were
made in discussion:
e itremained JFSA’s view that it was not the role of the Working Group to decide
whether a case was suitable for mediation or not;
e JFSA considered that no further CRRs should be released in draft until Second Sight
had completed their Part Two report;
e although a number of cases made reference to the Part Two report, it was important
that progress continued be made in those cases where Part Two was not relevant;
¢ Post Office confirmed that it fulfilled all its duties relating to prosecutions;
e JFSA felt that insufficient weight was given to wider issues relative to the cause of
losses in branch and where the money went. There were cases in the Scheme
where there was no loss and issues beyond the cause of losses had caused
applicants significant concern;
* mediation would allow for a discussion of those wider issues and concerns,
especially in cases where the data available was limited;
e Post Office had addressed all claims raised by applicants in their investigation
reports;
« Second Sight’s most recent reports had sought to cover the range of issues raised by
applicants and their Part Two report would address a significant number of the issues
raised too; and
« the assessment of cases had highlighted some very common misconceptions on the
part of applicants.
JFSA reported that one applicant had withdrawn from the Scheme owing to Post Office’s
approach to mediation. Post Office said that they could not share details of any mediation
but that no applicant whose case had been recommended for mediation had (thus far)
withdrawn from the process prior to mediation taking place. The Chair said that it was not
possible to evaluate the utility of the mediation process until feedback was received. This
would not be until after 25 cases had passed to mediation and even then, feedback would
be highly generalised.
Action: It was agreed that Second Sight should continue produce draft CRRs and
seek comments within the existing timescales. However, if the final CRR is likely to
make reference to the Part Two report, the CRR should not be released until the
completion of the Part Two report. Second Sight should inform the Secretariat so that
they may inform the applicant of progress with their case.
3. Progress on the Part Two Report
lan Henderson updated the Working Group on progress with finalising the Part Two Report.
Following a discussion with the Secretariat a plan had been drawn up to facilitate the
completion of the report. This contained 3 broad stages:
e The identification of questions that remain to be answered in a more granular form —
by 9 December.
« Post Office to respond - by 6 January.
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« A face to face meeting, facilitated by the Secretariat at the beginning of January,
where any necessary clarification of Post Office’s response can be sought.
This was likely to be a complex exercise and there may be further questions that arise during
the process. However, the aim was to produce an evidence based document that facilitated
mediation and closure for applicants. The plan was based on providing a draft version of the
report to the Working Group by the end of February and completion of the report by the end
of March 2015. Belinda Crowe circulated a hard copy of the plan to members of the Working
Group and said that the Secretariat had offered on-going support to Second Sight in order to
meet the timetable set out in the plan.
The Chair said that the plan and final report needed to cover questions that had arisen in the
Working Group’s discussions, specifically:
e the position in Crown Offices
suspense accounts; and
«where there was a loss, who were the most likely beneficiaries.
The Chair asked Second Sight to ensure that their questions were put simply and that their
reports allowed applicants to know where losses were most likely to have gone.
Post Office said that it would be helpful if questions could be categorised by subject and
prioritised to allow cases to proceed through the Scheme. In addition, if Second Sight would
like to work in Post Office’s headquarters for a period of time to aid completion of the report
this could be arranged.
Action: Second Sight to finalise their Part Two report in line with the plan and
timetable circulated to the Working Group; and to address the points made by the
Chair in discussion.
4. Standing Case Agenda
4.1 Priority cases
Case No. I Status
Final report originally received 18 September, revised version received 23
M052 September. Second Sight awaiting further information from POL.
M073 Final CRR received 21 October. Awaiting mediation decision.
M086 Investigation has been prioritised — PO report due by 17 November.
M119 Investigation has been prioritised - PO report due by 24 November.
Post Office said that they were working through the necessary files on M052 and would
respond as soon as possible. They also said that they hoped to report on M119 ahead of
schedule.
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4.2 Bankruptcy cases
Case No. I Status
M001 SS Final report received 18 September. Awaiting mediation decision.
M029 SS Final report received 18 September. Awaiting mediation decision.
M032 Draft CRR received 16 October. Final due 04 November.
M036 Passed to SS 11 September. Draft CRR due 14 November.
M069. PO investigation on-going, report due by 10 November.
M081 PO investigation on-going, report due by 8 December.
M089 PO investigation on-going, report due by 10 November.
M100 PO investigation received 17 October. Draft CRR due 12 December.
M118 PO investigation received 16 October. Draft CRR due 28 November.
M122 PO investigation received 16 October. Draft CRR due 28 November.
M128 PO investigation on-going, report due by 22 December
M150 PO investigation on-going, report due by 8 December.
Second Sight reported that reports had been uploaded on M032, M036 and M069
respectively.
Kay Linnell raised a concern about reported delays in appointing Moore Stephens as
trustees in a number of bankruptcy cases. Belinda Crowe agreed to look into whether there
was any issue.
Action: Belinda Crowe to clarify the position on the appointment of trustees in
bankruptcy cases.
4.3 Post Office Investigation Progress
i)
New scheduling to note
No new scheduling to note
ii)
Overdue cases
No cases overdue
4.4 Cases with Second Sight to review Post Office Investigation Reports
i)
New scheduling to note
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Case No. Date passed to SS SS planned scheduled delivery date
M012 04 November 16 January 2015
M026 04 November 23 January 2015
M033 29 October 16 January 2015
M050 29 October 9 January 2015
M056 28 October 19 December
M075 04 November 16 January 2015
M101 29 October 9 January 2015
M109 29 October 9 January 2015
i) Overdue cases
Date passed to
Case No. ss P Sslwaydate SS revised scheduled
delivery date
Mo24 15 September 07 November 2014
M025 03 October 07 November 2014
M034 08 September 07 November 2014
M040 05 September 31 October 2014
Mog5 08 August 31 October 2014
Second Sight reported that reports had been uploaded on M024, M025, M034 and M095
respectively. Further information on M040 was pending from Post Office.
4.5 Cases that Second Sight have reported on
., SS Final
Case ss draft report Deadline for SS final report due I Report WG decision
No. I issued comments
completed
To be
Second Sight referred to
04 September rewriting their CRR_ I Second Sight I Working
Moo2 I 17 July 2014 2014 following WG to resubmit Group when
meeting of 17/10 CRR re-
drafted
Second Sight pecond Sight Working
Mo003 I 11 September 2014 I 19 September rewriting their ORR I rocusmitted I Stour to
2014 following WG 07 November review
meeting of 17/10 14/11/2014
2014
Second Sight pecond Sight Working
Mo05 I 25 September 2014 I 07 October 2014 I “eMriting their CRR I Fo nitteq I OrouP to
following WG 07 November I 'eview
meeting of 17/10 2014 14/11/2014
Mo07 I 25 September 2014 I 22 October 2014 I 39 October 2014 I Overdue -
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moos I 24 October 2014 I 35 October 2014 I 6 November 2014 I Overdue -
Second Sight
M011 I 25 September 2014 I 07 October 2014 I 24 October 2014 I 23 O¢tber viewing
2014 -
Final CRR
On agenda
M013 I 26 September 2014 I 07 October 2014 I 24 October 2014 33 October for
14/11/2014
Applicant to
be provided
opportunity
M017 I 15 September 2014 I 2° September 02 October 2014 05 October I. comment
2014 2014
on Second
Sight
decision.
On agenda
M018 I 15 September 2014 I 10 October 2014 I 17 October 2014 8 October for
14/11/2014
Second Sight Second Sight I Working
25 September rewriting their CRR_ I have Group to
Mo21 I 15 September 2014 following WG resubmitted review
meeting of 17/10 14/11/2014 14/11/2014
Second Sight
to re-advise Working
M029 I 27 August 2014 sone Ptember 17 September 2014 I Working Group to
Group on Part I review
2
M031 I 27 October 2014 oo November 13 November 2014 I - -
M032 I 16 October 2014 28 October 2014 04 November 2014 Overdue -
Second Sight
to re-advise Working
M035 I 11 August 2014 % eptember 11 September 2014 I Working Group to
Group on Part I review
2
Handed back
to SS fora Working
05 September 12 September 2014 I revised report I Group to
M039 I 27 August 2014 2014 due TBC - review
Second Sight 14/11/2014
to re-submit
M042 I 14 October 2014 28 October 2014 I 04 November 2014 I Overdue -
M046 I 7 November 2014 - - - -
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Second Sight
M049 I 03 October 2014 I 23 October 2014 I 300ctober 2014 I 22 October viewing
2014 "
Final CRR
M051 I 27 October 2014 oo November 13 November 2014 I - -
Second sight I POLto
04 September awaiting update
M052 I 28 July 2014 2014 18 September 2014 further info Working
from POL Group
14/11/2014
Overdue (POL
M053 I 10 October 2014 21 October 2014 I 28 October 2014 response -
delayed)
Second Sight
M058 I 5 October 2014 I 14 October 2014 I 21 October 2014 I 2B October iewing
2014 -
Final CRR
M059 I 31 October 2014 * November 21 November 2014 I - -
31 July 2014 Second Sight
Revised version to advise
M062 I 20 June 2014 22 July 2014 following WG I -
uploaded 23 . .
September discussion
17/10
Working
17 October 2014 -
M063 I 08 October 2014 Applicant 27 17 October 2014 03 November Group to
October 2014 2014 reve
14/11/2014
Second Sight
to advise
Mo65 I 23 September 2014 I 02 October 2014 I 0 October 2014 I OBOctober I sotiowing WG
discussion
17/10
M067 I 19 October 2014 28 October 2014 I 04 November 2014 I Overdue -
MO71 I 7 November 2014 onemeet 26 November 2014 I - -
Second Sight POL to
iting update
M072 I 08 October 2014 I 17 October 2014 I 24 October 2014 awaiting Working
further info Group
from POL 14/11/2014
Second Sight
M073 I 24 September 2014 I 03 October 2014 I 24 October 2014 21 October I viewing
2014 7
Final CRR
Overdue (POL I Working
M078 I 14 October 2014 23 October 2014 30 October 2014 response Group to
delayed) review
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14/11/2014
POL yet to
M090 I 16 October 2014 28 October 2014 I 04 November 2014 I respond to
Draft CRR
19 November On agenda
M091 I 31 October 2014 2014 25 November 2014 - 14/11/2014
14 November
Mo093 I 31 October 2014 2014 21 November 2014 I - -
M095 I 7November 2014 I - - - -
Second sight I POLt
awaiting update
M097 I 10 October 2014 23 October 2014 I 30 October 2014 further info Working
Group
from POL 14/11/2014
M115
05 October 2014 Case Closed — Applicant’s whereabouts unknown.
POL - 23 October
2014 Applicant
M116 I 12 October 2014 _I requested 26 November 2014 I - On agenda
. th 14/11/2014
extension - 19)
November 2014
03 November I On agenda
M126 I 03 October 2014 14 October 2014 I 21 October 2014 2014 14/11/2014
M132 I 16 October 2014 28 October 2014 I 04 November 2014 I Overdue -
M135 I 29 October 2014 omer 23 November 2014 I - -
The Secretariat said that there were a growing number of cases that had been considered
by the Working Group but where decisions on suitability had not been reached pending
further information. They recommended that a standard letter be sent to applicants affected
to provide an update on progress. This was agreed.
Action: Secretariat to draft a letter for the Chair to provide an update to applicants
where consideration of their case has been delayed or further information has been
sought.
4.6 Cases where the Working Group has made mediation recommendation
Cases with CEDR awaiting mediation:
M002, M006, M014, M019, M048, M054, M143
Cases where either party have declined to mediate:
M015, M030 (both Post Office)
Cases where WG did not approve mediation:
M057, M076
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Cases mediated:
M009, M022, M028, M079, M127, MO66
4.7 Any other queries raised by Applicants / Advisors
Requests for extensions
Extensions had been requested for comments on draft CRRs on M091 and M116
respectively owing to illness. This was agreed.
Action: Secretariat to inform the applicants that their request had been agreed and to
agree a new deadline for comments in each case.
Conditional Leavers Payment
The Chair had received a letter from the applicant's advisor in case M114 objecting to the
condition that they leave the Scheme in order to receive a conditional leavers payment.
Post Office explained that this was in line standard practice and they had modified their
approach to allow the applicant to transfer their branch immediately but have sufficient time
to have their case fully investigated and to make an informed decision on whether they
wished to stay in the stay in the Scheme or take the conditional leavers payment.
The Chair suggested that the two processes ought to be separated, allowing the applicant to
receive their payment and stay in the Scheme. Post Office agreed to this approach.
Action: Post Office to amend their offer to the applicant in case M114.
4.8 AOB
Frequency of Working Group Calls
At the last Working Group call, it had been suggested that calls be moved on to a fortnightly
basis now that the focus has moved on from scheduling. This was agreed.
Action: Secretariat to schedule calls on a fortnightly basis going forward.
M061 & M149
Post Office reported that they had reflected further on the discussion at the last Working
Group and decided that despite being ineligible for the Scheme, cases M061 and M149 may
exceptionally proceed given the issues of eligibility were only spotted after the cases had
made significant progress through the Scheme. The applicants and their advisors have
been informed.
5. Cases for Decision
M003, M005, M013, M018, M021, M039, M063, M078, M126
Post Office reported that they were content to mediate case M126 and that the papers had
been passed to CEDR.
Post Office were similarly content to mediate case M005. However, papers had not been
sent to CEDR as Second Sight had recommended deferring mediation until the Part Two
Report had been finalised. It was suggested that the applicant be informed that their case
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was judged as suitable for mediation and that they be given the choice as to whether to
mediate now or wait for the Part Two report. This was agreed.
Post Office were content to treat cases M021 and M078 in the same way as M005.
Action: Secretariat to draft letters to the applicants in cases M005, M021 and M078
informing them that the Working Group had decided that their cases were suitable for
mediation and offering them the choice of mediating now or when the Part Two
Report had been finalised, in the knowledge that this was not likely to be before end
March 2015.
Second Sight asked to revisit the remaining cases in the light of the earlier discussions. This
was agreed.
Action: Second Sight to revisit the CRRs in cases M003, M013, M018, M039 and M063.
Date of Next Meeting
Monday 8th December, Noon.