Summary of Tape
Recorded Interview
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Person Hughie Noel Thomas Exhibit No:
Interviewed Number of pages:
Place of Interview Room
Interview Holyhead Police Station Signature of
Anglesey interviewing officer
Date of 13" October 2005
Interview
Time 19.52 hours Time 20.36
commenced concluded
Duration of 46 minutes Tape 37924
interview reference no
Interviewing Diane Matthews Steve Bradshaw
Officer(s)
Other persons Mr Eilian Williams Solicitor
present
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0.00 DM Introductions were made. Mr Thomas was recautioned.
8015
Mr Williams was happy that his client fully understood
the meaning of the caution. It was explained that the
reason for the interview was surrounding the audit
shortage of £48,454.87, which had been completed on
the morning of 13 October 2005 at Gaerwen Post
Office. A recap of the days events was captured in my
notebook which was read out to Mr Thomas. Mr Thomas
agreed that this was an accurate account of events.
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3.37 HT The only comment I will make is that I was prepared to
make an interview at home, but probably I
misunderstood but you may correct me, but you went
and phoned someone to ask that, and I wanted Jim
Evans, my Federation Representive and who has taken
over the office in my absence, and from what I
understood, and maybe you can correct me, that you
weren't happy to do that.
DM What happened was, like we explained to you when we
arrived at your office, there were several avenues open
to us. One was a voluntary taped interview, the other
one, because of the amount involved was to involve the
police. We had to take one of them options because we
would rather sort this out sooner rather than later
HT I agree with you.
SB Are you happy with the reason why we are in here today
and the reason we are in Holyhead Police Station?
HT I understand
5.07 DM Ok so the audit took place and it produced the shortage
as we said of just over £48,000. Do you want to give us
an explaination of why there is that much short in your
accounts
HT At the moment I am not commenting. No comment
SB Do you know when the account was first short
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HT Without looking through the papers I don’t. I’m sorry
SB Without looking at what papers?
HT The accounting papers
SB I understand your right to no comment but we have some
cash accounts
HT Yeah not saying, I am finding it very difficult to remember
what really went on a fortnight ago, let alone, there are
29 weeks gone in this year and without having the
evidence in front of me and looking at it in bare figures. I
am an old fashioned chap, im used to figures on paper
not on a screen.
6.21 DM Did you keep any other paperwork at home to do with
these losses
HT No everything is there. Everything you got or within the
Office is in the office
DM Because all we have taken from the office at this point is
the cash accounts.
HT All the paperwork is there, everything is there with the
weeks on everything. I wrap them up and what I cant
keep in the office is in the shed.
DM That's the daily and weekly work
HT Yes
DM Right but with regard to this loss was this money if we
say it built up over a period of time
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HT Yes
DM I understand that you cant say to us that 12 months ago
it was £200 short and I know there was £21,000 locked
up in the safe. I fully understand that you are not going to
remember that, but did you keep any records of your own
to say well this week I am £200
HT No
DM Right so the only records you have got are 1) in your
daily and weekly envelope and 2) the records which have
been made on your cash account.
HT Yes, I have got no hidden agenda
DM Right so when we look at your cash accounts do you
declare or do you show on your accounts accurately the
state of your office in any particular week.
HT Well I cant comment really on that.
SB Do you understand your obligations as a subpostmaster
regarding office surplus’s and shortages
8.04 HT Yes
SB Do you like to explain what that obligation is
HT To make good any loss and take out any extra.
SB Ok and when was that to be made good
HT Sorry is it this loss your talking about now
SB No no any loss
HT Within the week or on that day as far as I can think of
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SB Ok so when you balance for the benefit of Mr Williams
now , the cash account week runs Thursday to a
Wednesday, with you balancing on a Wednesday. You
show a shortage of £10, you are obliged by the terms of
your contract to make good that shortage
HT Yes
SB When you have been doing these cash accounts
whether it be for the last 6 months, 18 months or 2 years,
are there any occasions when you haven’t made good
these shortages
HT No Comment
SB Do you know when you started having shortages within
the Post Office
HT Without looking back im not quite sure
SB Have you ever made any of these shortages good
HT I have tried to
SB What do you mean by I have tried to
HT Whenever possible yes
SB Do you know which losses you have made good
HT Without looking back at the papers no
SB Any losses that you haven't made good did you know it
was wrong to do that
HT No
SB Would you like to explain why you didn’t think it was
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wrong not to make good the loss when I would like to
remind you already explained to me that you understood
the terms of your contract
HT Yes I know
SB You had to make good the loss for that week
HT No comment
SB So you are declining to comment on why you thought it
was ok not to make good the shortages
HT Yes
SB The loss is £48,000 in cash and if I just use your last
balance which would have been completed yesterday
Wednesday 12" October
HT Yes
SB There was a shortage of £48,000 in cash and a couple of
hundred pounds, the rest of the loss is made up with
discrepancies within the stock. When that shortage was
discovered, did you make good that shortage
HT No
SB What did you do with that cash figure for that week 29.
HT No comment
SB Did you inflate the cash for that week
HT No comment
SB If as is transpired from the audit today, you said there
was in excess of £69,000 in the safe when in fact there
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was only £21,000. Do you have any explanation of why
there is £48,000 short
HT No Comment
SB The previous week is it £48,000 short
HT No Comment
SB If we go through weeks 1 to week 29 of the current cash
account year 05/06 are any of them cash accounts a true
record of the cash declared when you have balanced the
office accounts each and every week.
HT No comment
SB For cash account year 04/05 which is 52 cash accounts
on each and every Wednesday when you have balanced
the accounts is that a true record of the cash locked up.
HT No comment
SB Who is responsible for doing the cash accounts
HT lam
SB Who signs the cash accounts
HT Ido
SB So if the cash locked up is not a true record, will you be
responsible
HT No comment
12.22 SB Who else works in the post office
HT Im not going to, myself
SB Now you have just said im not going to then myself
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HT Myself yes
SB Is there anybody else who works in the post office
HT Just myself
SB Does anyone else have access to the Horizon machines
HT Just my wife
SB Does anyone else have a password or a user identity
HT No
SB Does your son or daughter have a user identity
HT No
SB So if I took the user summary of the Horizon machine, I
would only find yourself and your wife, not your son or
daughter
HT No
SB Has your son or daughter every worked behind the
counter
HT No
SB Do they have access to the counter
HT Only when they bring me a cup of tea
SB Who secures the money of a night
HT Ido
SB Who declares the money of a night
HT Ido
SB Each night when you declare the figures do you send a
true record
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HT No comment
SB On a Wednesday you have to declare your balance
figure and the ONCH figure, are they always the same
HT No comment
14.03 DM Is there any occasion over the last 12 months that you
have been on holiday
HT I haven't had a holiday for 12 years
DM So every Wednesday for the last 2 years you personally
have completed the cash account
HT Yes
DM So every document if we check for the last 2 years it will
be your signature on them
HT Yes
DM And nobody else has worked in your office
HT Only my wife
DM Has your wife ever completed the balance
HT No she cant, she can only do basic work and serve
DM Has she ever declared the cash
HT No
14.51 DM Have you ever stolen money out of the Post Office
HT No
DM Have you stolen £48,000 of Post Office funds
HT No comment
SB So this £48,000, I believe you are selling the office
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HT Yes
SB So if today was the transfer and not the audit, would the
auditors still have found it £48,000 short
HT No comment
SB Have you got a buyer for the office
HT Yes
SB So you have got a buyer so you would expect to hand
over in a relatively short period of time
HT Yes
SB What when you have checked and the £48,000 is
missing, what would you say to the buyer, what’s your
explaination about the account being short
HT No comment
DM Were you hoping to repay that money prior to the
transfer of the office to the new people
HT No comment
DM Are you aware that when an office transfers it will be
subjected to a full cash and stock verification audit in
order to transfer it over to the new people
HT Yes
DM So were you making provision to put that money back
prior to the transfer in order that that transaction, the sale
of your business would go ahead
HT No comment
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DM Are you aware that the sale of and the transfer of the
business would not go ahead if the money wasn’t there
HT No
DM So if you weren't aware it wouldn't go ahead, what do
you think would happen
HT No idea
DM Had you thought about that or had you not considered
that yet
HT No
17.09 SB You have already said to Diane that you have not stolen
the money, so therefore, losses have occurred for
whatever reason, we appreciate you cant tell me, we
know the finishing time was yesterday, you cant
remember when you first started having losses which
you didn’t make good or which ones you didn’t make
good, is there any reason why you think you were having
losses in the office
HT Basic mistakes on the Horizon and not understanding it
SB Ok you say basic mistakes on the Horizon
HT If you check my error notices you will find out, that’s all I
will say at the moment
The error notices received recently into the office were
discussed with the most recent one being in the last
couple of weeks
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19.00 DM When you said you had a £1500 error notice which you
think
Could be a payment of £15 that you have entered
incorrectly, when you got that error notice, did you have a
corresponding loss or gain showing in your account for
that
HT No
DM Why wouldn't you have a corresponding loss or gain
HT No comment
DM Because if you have taken a premium bond of someone
for £1500, in order to get the error notice, you have put
the transaction through incorrectly, is that right
HT Yes
DM Therefore you are going to have a corresponding loss at
the time of £1485 so when you get the error notice back
for that amount back they match up is that have error
notices work
HT Hopefully yes
DM You have a loss or a gain and somewhere down the line
it is picked up and its brought to account and then you
balance
HT Hopefully
DM Do you agree that’s how the system is set up to work
HT Yes
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DM Do you agree that you should of shown a loss or gain in
your cash account if that’s correct way of doing it
HT No comment
A further discussion took place around error notices
22.06 SB When was Horizon put into your office
HT Cant remember
SB If I say 2001 is that about right
HT You could be right yes
SB Because it is round about that period that 2 year period
that it was implemented.
HT Yes without looking at the paperwork
SB So you’ve had 4 maybe 5 years of the Horizon system
now while you say whatever you put in never came out
the same way, did you ever in them days it was a retail
line manager. Did you ever make any complaints to the
retail line.
HT In the beginning yes
SB You say in the beginning but when was the beginning
HT When it first came in
SB So during 2001 you made some complaints about the
Horizon system
HT Yes
SB What was done do you remember
HT I had to pay of the top of my head a certain sum which
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was only half of the loss POLC took the view that it was
partly my fault and partly the Horizon fault. But there was
a line manager available to talk to then, there isn’t now.
SB So since then the teething problems with Horizon come
in changing from one system to another with ecco or
Richard Jackson.
HT I had my own, cant remember what it was called
DM Capture
HT Capture
SB So the old pen and paper was 20 years ago.
HT Yes
SB So while you are unsure of the horizon system did you
request or get any extra training
HT Very little
SB By very little can you explain
HT I got one extra account on a Wednesday
SB And was that when horizon was first put in
HT Yes
SB So since 2001 what other complaints have you made if
any
HT I rang the helpline on quite a few occasions regarding 2
or 3 small matters really. And that’s all really but I have
been rebooting ive got a list at home of the amount of
times I have had to reboot over the last 12 months
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SB So if we check with the helpline they will have a list of
calls from your office
HT I hope so yes I hope so. I haven't got it, I haven’t
unlocked it myself
SB These cash accounts and these shortages each week for
whatever period it has gone on, which has accumulated
to £48,000
HT Yes
25.19 SB Are you saying that the horizon system has contributed
oris responsible for this discrepancy
HT All I am saying ive got very very doubts about it
SB While you have got your doubts about the Horizon
system would you not agreed then or can you have any
other explaination of why there is £48,000 short in the
accounts if its not the horizon system
HT No
SB Have you given £48,000 out over the counter
HT Without checking and just being a basic man, I don’t
know
SB If I use the example if I come in and get my pension book
26.36 HT When the pension books I had a docket, with horizon I
have nothing till Wednesday. I may be talking too much
now but when I have looked I have seen a lot of zeros
coming up on the card accounts and the auditor this
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morning couldn't explain it to me. I don’t know what the
zeros mean or if I have been paying out and it hasn't
gone through the system. That is all I am prepared to say
SB Again while you have brought it up about the zeros we
may offer 1 or 2 explanations now. If I come in with my
card, not a card account but the banks what’s the most I
can draw out
HT Im not sure it depends on the bank, some allow £200,
Barclays do £300 because ive done a few and Lloyds do
£250. Alliance & Leicester depends if that person has
rang the bank up first and asked for a special withdrawal
SB Specials has got a phone audit
HT When I looked today there are 5 transactions with Lloyds
that have a zero.
SB That wasn’t every transaction though was it
HT No. Some of them went through but 5 were zero
SB And again we will check that out with the people at
horizon. Get the equipment in the office checked.
However, the explanation we believe why the zeros
come up is that if I come and put my card into the pin
pad and incorrectly enter my pin number it will tell you on
the other side that I have incorrectly put my pin number
in and I have to remove the card and redo it and it ends
the transaction so that is actually a transaction at zero
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money. Ok, The other one may be if I come in and ask to
withdraw on a Post Office Card then I come in put my
card in the pin pad, enter my pin number correctly and
ask to take all the money out. I may not have any money
in so that will come back as a zero. Now it is my opinion,
and that’s what I believe what the zeros are. I do not
believe that the zeros contribute to the loss of the
£48,000; however, we will check that out to ensure that
what I am saying is correct.
HT I would be very grateful
SB So if you haven't give the money out over the counter to
the customers, do you not agree then that for money to
go missing from the Post Office it has to be someone
that has access to the counter
HT No Comment
SB And if the money has been stolen from the Post office
again its yourself, your wife who has the major access
and your son and daughter you are the only 4 people
who have access to the counter. Anybody else have any
access to the counter
HT No no
SB Your responsible for the cash figures and you’re the one
who locks the money away in the safe at a night and puts
the time locks on. And locks the stock away
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HT Yes yes
SB No other person
HT No
31.27 SB Can I just show you this docket then. This is the cash
account week 29 week ending October 12" 2005 and is
your final cash account
DM DM1
SB Whos signature is on that
HT Mine
SB Your signature so you prepared this cash account. So on
the bottom on the left hand side as you look there is a box
for the declared surplus or shortage. Is there any amount
declared
HT None
SB On the next page shows the cash declared which is
£69,534.23.which you are saying there is that amount of
cash in the safe. Is that a true record of the amount of
cash locked up in the safe last night
HT Yes
SB So if I checked that safe last night I would of found
£69,534.23
HT No comment
SB You have just said to me yes and now we are back to no
comment
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HT Yes
SB Is that a true record of the cash locked up
HT No comment
SB Did you inflate that cash
HT No comment
SB Did you know it was wrong to inflate that cash
HT No comment
SB Thereby inflating that cash you falsified the accounts for
the post office for that week
HT No comment
SB Cash account 28 whos signature in the corner
HT Yes
SB Is that your signature
HT Yes
SB Again in the corner it shows a surplus or a shortage
HT Yes
SB 96 pence surplus. Again the cash £70, 596.77. Is that a
true account of the cash declared for that cash account
week 5/10
HT No comment
SB Did you inflate that cash
HT Did you know it was wrong to inflate that cash
SB No comment
SB Thereby falsifying that document
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HT No comment
34.09 The declared balances from week 27 to week 16 were
shown which shown very small losses or gains until week
16.
SB In week 16, is that your signature in the corner
HT Yes
SB And at the bottom you see the shortage of £126.59
HT Yes
SB Did you make good that shortage that week
HT I cant remember
SB Again the cash locked up is £69,204.35 is that a true
record of the cash locked up that week
HT No comment
SB Did you inflate the cash that week
HT No comment
SB Did you know it was wrong to inflate the cash that week
HT No comment
SB Thereby falsifying that document. Ok for the remaining
15, if I go through them individually is there any that you
will remember
HT No not really
SB Is there any indication on any paperwork anywhere that
will help us to help you to find out which one you may or
may not of made good
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HT No
SB And you cant remember when you first experienced
shortages in the office
HT No
36.27 SB Did you tell anyone you were experiencing shortages in
the office
HT No one at all
SB You told nobody. Is there any reason you told nobody
HT I was too worried
SB Well if you are making mistakes why would you be too
worried
HT I was
SB So this shortage is it one large or is it an accumulation of
shortages over a period of time
HT I will say no comment to that at the moment
SB Cos what I am trying to get at is you said you told nobody
because you were too worried but if it’s a build of
shortages after 2 or 3, you’re an experienced
subpostmaster as well as previous experience as a
postman, you understand the workings of how the post
Office in all its guises of Consignia and post office of its
importance of keeping true and accurate records. So you
have other people there if you are experiencing difficulties
with having shortages because £100 becomes £200
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becomes £300 it snowballs
HT If you call the helpline helpful I keep my comments
SB I understand that but again going back to the terms of your
contract but ultimately all the shortages cost you.
HT Yes
SB Even genuine shortages cost you. The balance is there to
help you, It’s your safeguard. If your paying out too much
money it will show up as a shortage. If that happens too
much you should go and seek help. You are a member of
the federation and your rep is the one who is working
today as the interim. Did you not speak to him and say you
are having problems
HT No
SB Do you not think that is the reason you join the federation
HT Could be
SB Was it one large loss that somebody has stolen from the
Post Office
HT No
SB Do you suspect anybody else
HT No
SB So you don’t suspect anyone else in your family
HT No No
SB So all your shortages and losses are attributed to yourself
HT If proven yes
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SB What do you mean proven, we know the office has a
£48,000 loss that was there yesterday, that is a fact. At
the audit when counted up £69,000 was not in the safe.
So is that loss shortage discrepancy down to you
HT No comment
39.42 Mr Williams stated that access to all accounting records
would be made available. Access to his bank accounts
was given. Forms were left to forward.
SB To recap then £48,000, have you stolen that money
HT No comment
SB Have you falsified any of the cash accounts in the last
6,12,18 months
HT No comment
SB Have you inflated the cash to enable to balance
HT No comment. I just hope you find something on the
horizon system. And one thing I would like to say I have
not had a holiday in 12 years
SB I have made a note of that
43.10 HT And if you find anything wrong it is down to me and
nobody else. I accept any responsibility once everything is
cleared. That’s my last comment
SB So you are taking full responsibility for the £48,000 audit
shortage
HT Yes yes
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SB Are you happy that the interview has been conducted
according with pace
AW Yes im sure
HT I am happy as well. Thank you very much
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The tape seal 37924 was read and signed by Mr Thomas
and signed by Mr Williams, Miss Matthews and Mr
Bradshaw. The interview ended at 8.36
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