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Record of Tape Recorded Interview
Record of Tape
Recorded Interview
Person Exhibit No:
Interviewed Susan Jane RUDKIN (SR) Number of pages: 8
Place of
Interview Private Residence Signature of
Ibstock Post Office® Leicester interviewing officer
producing exhibit
Date of 20% August 2008
Interview
Time commenced 13:00 Time concluded 13:44
Duration of 44 minutes Tape reference 045187
interview no
Interviewing Mike Wilcox (MW) Gary Thomas
Officer (s) Gt)
Other persons
present
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
0.07 MW Normal introductions including voice identification, legal
rights and caution. No legal representation required. Son
Dale allowed to sit in as “friend”.
Explains that interview is regarding the audit shortage
and no objection to interview being recorded. GS001 signed
and timed at 13:04.
5.05 SR Background regarding the office in which they have been
there 8 years in October. Her husband Michael is the
Postmaster in name but he doesn’t work in the Po at all.
Says there are 5 other part time staff in the Post OfficeO
and 3 HORIZON terminals.
Says that the office operates a single till unit and the
cash account balance is compiled by her after having
assistance from an assistant called Sue Ba.
Confirms she does end of day routines with regard to going
into the office just before 5 and the end of day
despatches done.
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Record of Tape Recorded Interview_Continued
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
7.17 SR ’ The money is counted in the safe..the girls do that up to
a point but I do all the entering”
“.uwonly on odd occasions if I get called away do they
enter it onto the system”
Discussion that by the end of the day the tills are
reduced to one working unit so there would be cash in the
main safe and cash in one till.
8.20 MW Asks when the last time someone else would have entered
the cash on hand.
SR Says Sue entered it the other day.
MW Recaps that the Post 0. ce© auditors arrived at the
office today and she opened the safe and admitted them to
the o ce. SR then asked to speak to Paul Field in the
back room.
Shows a handwritten report which SR confirms she signed.
9.18 MW Reads part of the statement regarding the £40,000
shortage.
MW Asks why it is short
9.36 SR “The past couple of years I have been under a lot of
pressure..erm.....totally in charge of the retail the Post
the sorting office...and we had a robbery which
really knocked me for six and I have been frightened most
of the time and I have let go of the reigns a lot of the
time...not only with the Post Office® but everything...and
unfortunately I’ve let things get out of hand....and there
have been mistakes made behind the Post Office®....I’ve
just not known really which way to go.and I haven’t told
Michael because I felt as if I was letting him down and
that once I got myself
ght I could sort the problems
out., but I just haven’t been able to and they have
escalated to a point where I didn’t know which way to
turn”
MW Asks when robbery was and SR says it was 2 years ago.
she runs the shop the Post Office® and a sorting
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Record of Tape Recorded Interview_Continued
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
ce with 14 postman.
SR Says she gets up early to make sure the staff and mail
arrives on time along with the newsagents work.
MW Asks where the money has gone
SR “Well because the business as a whole and the staff, the
overheads and the business have not been really doing what
it should be doing. I’ve had you know..losses behind the
Post Office® counter and then coupled with trying to sort
the business out ..erm...difficulties and........I’ve just not
know which way to turn......”
13.00 MW Clarifies there have been losses in the Post Office® and
under the terms of the contract that should be made good.
13.20 MW “Is part if this because you haven’t been putting the
money in to make the losses up?”
SR “Yes”
MW Asks if trading statement is short would you just inflate
the cash to make that right?
13.31 SR “Yes”
MW Also had bills for shop and house gas and electric
SR Agrees
MW Asks if she has been paying them through the Post Office®
without putting the money in.
SR “What I have been doing is say borrowed 500
thinking that I can put that back in after the days
takings and something has cropped up and I have not been
able to do that, so it’s everything altogether”
MW Explains if she borrowed £500 what has she done with it
SR “I’ve paid it into our account”
Clarifies it is a Lloyds TSB business account.
MW Confirms she took cash into Lloyds TSB in Coalville and
paid it in over the counter.
15.07 SR “No way have I really wanted to defraud the Post Office®
or anything..we worked for the Post Office® for a lot of
years and. we are honest people and I just.....the
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Record of Tape Recorded Interview_Continued
Tape Person
counter speaking
times
Text
16.41 MW
SR
SR
19.27 GT
SR
business has everything has just got too much for me..exzm
managing everything I haven’t kept topside of my books and
managing the stock and managing the staff and really II
know that...I should have asked for help and if I wasn’t
coping I should have asked for help but I didn’t feel as
if I could. I
felt as if I was letting everybody down and
letting Michael down and felt sure that I would be able to
sort everything out and I think because I haven’t been in
the Post Office whereas I used to work in the Post
ce® quite a lot of hours I haven’t been able to keep
topside of what has gone on behind Post Office® counter
although I am here all the time but obviously I....when I
time in the Post Office© I am here
say I don’t work
full time from six o clock in the morning until 6 o clock
at night”
"Do you deal with all the finances in the house then
+++..do you pay all the bills?”
“I deal with everything”
Says she always has done this as her husband is the
Chairman of the negotiating committee for the NFSP.
Discussion on whether money could have been paid into the
account over the Post Office® counter. And SR confirms
this cannot be done for a business account.
Discussion regarding finances and all bills comes out of
business account.
Questions whether suppliers have come into the shop and
she has used some of the money to pay them
“yes”
Trying to understand how the amount got so high
Says that it started with the shortages and not being able
to make them good and when she did pay some back she would
be short for bills and then taking money in the hope of
paying back from takings.
“Because I haven't taken charge and said something it has
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Record of Tape Recorded Interview_Continued
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
just got out of hand and really.. have been frightened
more than anything because I have always been a really
strong person and this last couple of years I haven’t
slept..initially I couldn’t go into the Post Office® and
that is where I have kept taking the back seat and I
shouldn’t have”
20.46 MW Asks when she thinks she first took Post Office® money for
whatever reason.
21.04 SR “Nothing that really comes to mind other than I did have a
big shortage in the Post Office® and though Oh God that is
because I am not keeping an eye and I put the money
from out of the business....erm....and...basically it is
e I say it just seem to escalate”
MW Shows concerns regarding losses and her lack of control
would mean errors and not shortages. Possibility of staff
problems.
22.15 SR Says she cannot put her finger on anything but a new girl
last year made some mistakes.
SR “I don’t think for one minute that the girls, that anybody
out there is doing anything....but they are mistakes and
most of them we have been able to resolve...one or two have
come back”
23.35 MW Asks the largest amount taken at any time.
SR A Thousand pound
Confirms it was paid into the bank.
MW Explains some of the loss is shortages and some is cash
paid into the bank.
Asks if large deposits on the statement would be all due
to Post Office® cash.
SR Says that the PO money would be part of the shop takings
deposit so not able to differentiate.
24.30 SR Says that the wage bill is paid by BACs but Post OfficeO
money would not be needed to pay it.
MW Asks why she brought up the wage bill
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Record of Tape Recorded Interview_Continued
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
SR Says it comes out of the remuneration
25.40 oT Confirms she needed to top up sometimes to cover the wage
bill
SR Says there are good days and bad days in the retail side.
MW Asks if she had taken any cash for paying suppliers.
SR Says not cash.
MW Confirms all money taken was paid into the bank account.
Discussion on any car purchases and she says that her
Mother gave her the money for that.
Discussion on when started and not started right after
robbery. Whether the staffing was too high and
unaffordable.
28.50 SR Says that Michael has been away more and more and she has
let him do his own thing and things have got out of hand
and she couldn't talk about it.
£ staff taken on to replace what
Discussion on new member
Michael used to do.
30.29 MW Discussion regarding cash declaration and how she knew how
much would be short.
SR “ Well as it’s gone along obviously I have made a note
because you think well I need to pay that back in...so you
make a note of what has been taken out and ...so therefore
I knew how much to........”
MW “.e+SO you kept a running total”
SR “Yes”
31.21 MW Have you still got that piece of paper of that note you
kept?”
“Where would that be?”
SR ‘“erm.that’s behind the Post Office©® counter”
MW Asks if when she did a cash declaration she added on the
amount from the piece of paper
SR “Yes”
MW larifies the other option could have been a balance
snapshot to tell you how much it was out.
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Record of Tape Recorded Interview_Continued
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
32.06 SR “As time has gone on I have had to do a balance snapshot
and check the figure and then write that figure down so I
know what to put in”
MW Explains that any difference between the balance snapshot
and her piece of paper would be a genuine shortage. which
would have been added on to the paper.
SR “Yes”
10 GT Clar
es that any difference between the snapshot and
paper record must be added on the running total as well.
MW Asks she ever made any shortages good
SR “yes I tried the best way I could”
MW “What the smaller amounts?”
sR “Yes”
Confirms larger amounts would be added on to the piece of
paper.
Discussion whether anyone else could have taken any money
and SR says she believes it is just mistakes. Staff are
good with the paperwork
34.41 MW “Did anyone else know on the counter what you were doing?”
SR “No”
MW Asks to explain how Sue declared the cash a few days ago.
SR “she would just declare what I tell her”
MW “so did you tell her there was x number of pounds in the
safe. Did you tell her there was £40,000 more than what
was in there”
34.59 sR “Yes or I would override it and put the difference
thing.
MW Explains that if the higher figure is declared when Sue
did it then it implicates her.
SR Says she would have overwritten the figure.
SR Says the cash sheets show the correct ure but the
inflated figure is put into the HORIZON system.
36.00 ic Queries if Sue would know the shortage when she did the
cash declaration.
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Record of Tape Recorded Interview_Continued
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
SR Confirms that she wouldn’t know how to get the difference
as she just did the cash declaration.
37.10 MW Recaps money paid into account which has helped pay for
Shop bills, wage bill household bills.
MW “Who did that money belong to?”
SR “It belonged to the Post Officeo”
MW “Did anybody give you permission to use that money?”
SR “No”
MW “Did you ask anyone if you could use it?
SR “No”
MW “What do you think they would have said if you did ask
them?”
37.55 SR “Well obviously no”
MW Explains that the money has gone and asks if she is ina
position to repay it.
SR Says that not at the moment but now that Michael knows
they will be making arrangements.
MW Says the audit shortage is currently £43856:89 of which
£43761:17 was cash.
38.55 MW Shows cash declaration and SR confirms is the cash
figure of £125874:68.
MW “Is that the actual amount that was in the safe at that
time?”
SR “No”
MW The reason is there is £43000 missing.
Asks if these are true states of the account at any time?
SR “No”
39.47 MW Asks if she understands that by taking that money she has
stolen it from the Post Office?
SR Nodding head
SR “Yes....but it wasn’t my intention to do so in the
place”
40.54 Discussion that Michael last worked behind the counter
about 18 months ago and he had no knowledge of what was
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Record of Tape Recorded Interview_Continued
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
happening.
Explains that they have worked together as a team for the
last 26 years
Says she was so ashamed that she couldn’t tell him
42.55 MW Concludes that each time a trading statement is completed
it is not accurate.
Explains the Post Office® w ants it’s money back and asks
for permission to search premises
44.14 SR Nothing to add or clarify
Tape seal signed and tape stopped at 13:44
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