POLO00052899
Record of Tape
Recorded Interview
Person Interviewed Tahir MAHMOOD (TM) Exhibit No:
Number of pages: 15
Place of Interview
Signature of interviewing
officer producing exhibit
Date of Interview 04.05.05
Time commenced 11:32 Time concluded 12:07
Duration of interview 36:00 Tape reference no 042884
Interviewing Officer(s) I Colin Price (CP), Michael Cooksey (MC)
Other persons present Jitesh Chavda (JC)
National Federation of Subpostmasters
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
MC “We are resuming the interview the time is 11:32 my name is
Michael Joseph Cooksey and my colleague is...”
cP “Colin Price”
MC “The interview is being conducted in room 801 at!
GRO __ Could you please give your full name...
™ “Tahir Mahmood”
MC “Also present is”
JC “Jitesh Chavda from the National Federation of Subpostmasters”
MC “I just have to remind you that you are still under caution that , you
do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence if you do
not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in
Court. Anything you do say maybe given in evidence, do you
understand?
™ “Yeh”
MC “What I need to show you again and remind you of your legal rights
form CS001”
™ Reads and completes form CS001 at 11:34 indicating that he does
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not wish to consult with a solicitor at present.
TM confirms that nothing to do with the case was discussed
between tapes and that he was offered a break and other
refreshments to the water already taken.
3:10 cP Repeats last part of the first tape and says that he believes TM has
a problem as his father only allows him £200 per month and that
could be the reason he was taking money. TM replies that he does
not need to and hasn’t taken any money from the post office and he
has been lazy and that was his mistake.
4:20 CP “Lazy in what way because you check everything before it goes
away. You explained to us in detail your checking”
™ “I did used to do that but then on the odd occasion I do it I wouldn't
do it fully I can what I would say is I weren’t doing it properly all the
time”
cP “Yeh but when your documentation goes away daily and weekly it’s
checked when it goes away”
™ “The dailies yes but I mean but I don’t it was the cash and stock I
weren't checking properly”
cP Reminds TM that only two error notices have been received.
5:00 cP “For me to sit here and believe that over a two year period you have
actually handed over the counter to customers thirty-three and a
half thousand pound”
™ “It's not just that when I first when the Horizon system was first
installed in the office”
cP Reminds TM that we were only talking about the last two years and
Horizon was installed before then. That the period under discussion
was from the last audit, March 2003, when TM would have started
from scratch.
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5:30 cP “So you are asking us to believe that thirty-three and a half
thousand pound has gone out over the counter because you are
inefficient”
™ “Yeh some things happened like that, that’s what I I definitely you
know I would not take the money I don’t need to”
cP “That's about 350 quid a week”
™ “Well something like that has happened cause I would not take the
money I promise you that I would not do anything as stupid as that.
Taking it and knowing how the hell I was going to put it back in as
well. Why would I want to put myself under that amount of
pressure”
6:20 cP Asks how much it would go to in the next six months if he had not
gone to the post office on Saturday.
™ Says that he had asked his father to help and that a loan had been
secured and that his father would pay it back under certain
conditions.
8:20 Discussion reveals that TM does a cash declaration each night.
That TM’s father has known about the shortage for some months
and that is why he obtained a loan, adding that if the office does not
stay in the family his father is not willing to pay the money.
9.50 CP “Have you ever taken money from the post office till for your own
use”
™ “No no...
cP “Are you sure?”
™ ...Lam positive I would never do that I I know that from the contract”
10:20 MC “You keep on saying that you know the contract and yet you don’t
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know the part about the fact that you are not supposed to do what
you have been doing”
™ “No I knew I weren’t supposed to do what I have been doing but I
just done it because I was panicking you know I didn’t know what to
do or how to pay the money back”
MC “You knew what you were doing it is not in your contract and you
knew it was dishonest”
™ “Yeh”
MC “So we have established you knew what you were doing was wrong
and it was dishonest”
™ “Yeh”
MC “And the reason that you were doing it is”
™ “Because I did not know how to put the money back”
11:30 MC “For two years you have done this so that you wouldn’t have didn’t
have to do not have to put the money in”
™ “Yeh”
MC “And you on your own then you could see no point where you would
have been able to put the money in”
™ “Yeh”
MC “So dishonestly you have done this and the gain is that you haven't
had to put a penny in and is it lose face or shame or something like
that..
™ “It could be I don’t know”
MC ..-No no you tell me I mean”
12:00 ™ “No it’s simply because I couldn't put it back in I didn’t know and
plus I was afraid I was really scared”
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cP “We covered that on the first tape and we agreed that your gain is
that you haven’t had your contract terminated. Because you yourself
said that if the post office, if you told the post office, that you had
continuous large losses and you couldn’t put them in and the post
office would terminate your contract and that is your gain isn’t it?”
™ “Yeh if you put it that way yeh”
cP “That's what you basically said in the first”
™ “Yeh that’s fine yeh but like all I am saying is I done it all under
pressure and panicking I is it’s my it’s a stupid mistake a very
stupid”
12:50 CP Says that he has looked at the figures and he believes that it is not
a busy post office and TM replies that it is not just the customer
service pressure of the £25,000 shortage.
MC Reminds TM that the original shortage was about £500 and TM says
that he had let it slip.
13:50 MC “I can’t get this into my mind you get the the you, the first time it
happened you have a loss for £500 you have shown losses in the
past why didn’t you show that one, you know you have got lots of
losses there why didn’t you show that one?”
™ “I know at that stage I was told if I any losses were shown I would
have to make them good straight away yeh and I couldn’t make
them good straight away”
14:40 cP Asks TM how much the shortage was three months ago when he
told his father and TM replies that it was £25,000 and it is agreed
that it had increased another eight and a half thousand in twelve
weeks.
15:10 CP “So when you told your father three months ago it was £25,000..
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™ “Yeh yeh”
cP ...you knew it was exactly £25,000...
™ “At that point yeh”
cP ...you knew it was exactly £25,000 so when you told him”
™ “Cos when he asked cos after I told him he told me to do a proper
balance”
Discussion reveals that TM balance £25,000 short, that he did not
show shortage and falsified his account.
16:20 cP Asks how much TM was out the week after he balanced and TM
replies that he did not know has he had not checked it properly and
falsified his balance.
cP Says that three months previous would have been the end of
January and that TM had shown a surplus of £5.56 when he was
actually £25,000 short.
™ “That again is down to figures you know falsifying the figures and
just probably adding a bit more on here and there that's it”
cP Asks TM to explain how he could come to £5.56 and TM says that
he had explained before that he would take one figure away from
the day before and it was a thousand or two thousand he would add
or take the amount off the twenties.
cP “Which would give you a clear balance”
™ “Yeh”
cP “But you have not shown a clear balance at all in the last two years”
™ “Yeh but I weren't to fussed about five pound, two three pound here
and there”
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CP Reads balance results from schedule, 111, 89, 37, 463, 382, 407,
392, 408, 170 and TM replies that he just let it add on.
18:20 cP Reminds TM that he had just said to him that if he was adding it on it
would show a clear balance. That TM has not shown any clear
balances and that he had shown hundreds some weeks and is
asked how to explain how he would do it.
™. “I don’t know I mean these are weeks back I don’t how each week I
done the balance each week and that all I am saying to you is that
that’s the way I done it”
cP “From the 19" of January this year you have shown a surplus every
week, since then 5.56, 5.66, 6.11, 4.88...
18:50 ™ “Right that surplus is probably from the week before I was surplus I
weren't taking the money out or anything if it was a surplus I didn’t
take it out”
cP “What do you mean a surplus from the week before, explain”
™ “If it say it was five pound you are saying each week five pound then
six pound the following week well that five pound the six pound is
still the five pound”
cP “Explain that for me please what you were just saying”
™ “Yeh say that is five pound one week then six pound the other week
so the other week would probably been a pound surplus cos the five
pound is still in there cos I didn’t take it out of the system [physically
and I didn’t change the figures it would still show as an overage the
following week”
19:30 cP “OK I can understand that so if you are saying it was a pound
difference from the week before then you would know exactly how
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much it was out then wouldn’t you?”
™ “More or less if I was concentrating”
cP “If you are telling me you know it was a pound difference from the
week before you must know exactly each amount you were over”
™. “No I don’t understand that”
19:50 cP “You have just said to me that if it was 5.66 or 6.66 it meant there
was a pound difference from the week before”
™ “Yeh that was that’s them figures isn’t it that’s what I am doing each
week I was just adding or taking away I weren’t really counting
anything physically in the office I mean how the figures come up that
is the system does and I don’t know how the figures come up”
20:40 cP Informs TM that if he knew he was five over last week and six this
week he must have balanced within a pound to which TM replies
sometimes he zero’s the figures some day’s and starting a fresh.
21:30 cP Repeats that TM had shown surpluses each week and that TM had
said that he had gained a pound from the previous week. That if TM
knew he was within a pound from the previous week it meant that he
had made an error and he knew that fact as he had balanced within
a pound of the previous week.
™ “Yeh, yeh yeh”
22:40 cP Reads out the small gains shown from January and says that
looking at those figures he would think that it was a very efficient
post office. That the figures indicate to him that TM knows exactly
what he is out.
23:40 cP “So I don’t believe that you are having losses I believe that the
money has gone probably in one lump sum or a few large sums and
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these are probably the true figures that you are showing on here but
there is a lump sum that is missing that you are just...
24:00 ™ “What I thought at that stage the lump sum was 25,000 and that is
what I thought and I was I was like I said to you I was changing the
accounts that’s the mistake I’ve made by trying to change the
accounts myself”
cP “You have gone from not cashing, not checking your cash at all to
checking it once a week. You have gone from checking all your
vouchers every week but not doing them recently and now you are
coming up with this story about this again”
24:30 ™ “What story I am telling you that I believe they are shortages that’s it
simple as you can take what ever you want from it you know”
26:00 cP Says that from week 43 to week 05 TM had lost another eight and a
half thousand pound.
™ “I don’t know what happened with losses I mean I don’t know I can’t
break that down to you I don’t know exactly how much it was short
each week in about what that what it was I am telling you”
cP “So in fourteen weeks you have lost another eight and a half
thousand pound which is about £800 per week but you must know
how much you have lost exactly every single week because you...
™ “No because I wasn’t adding it properly”
cP ...must do because you have shown a different you are showing
figures by the pence and you in your own admission said to me that
it was a pound different from the week before”
™ “Yeh a pound but I would yeh that’s what I was doing I was changing
the figures”
26:50 cP “When you balanced last Wednesday you were obviously around
£33,000 short. You shut at half past five what is the first thing you
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did at half past five?”
™ “I just done like I normally do take the figures away”
cP “But you just said you zero them every day”
™ “That's on Thursdays”
cP Asks what figure the difference was.
™. “I can’t remember”
cP “You must know it because you have to add that figure on to your
cash”
™ “I can’t remember to be honest with you four or five hundred pound
it'd probably about four or five hundred pound”
cP “It's only last Wednesday and we came in on the Saturday”
™ “Yeh probably about four or five hundred pound”
27:50 cP “So every week when you do it you have got that figure you take
one from the other and it gives you a figure and you know that
figure”
™ “I agree with what you are saying now yeh I understand what you
are saying now yeh”
cP “Because again earlier on you said you don’t know what the figure is
week to week you just take it away and put that figure in. But you do
know now?
™ “Ido know yeh”
cP “Exactly every week how much it’s short”
™ “Not every week cos I weren’t checking it concentrating on the
figures but I did more or less have an idea”
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28:20 cP “You have gone from I never do to yeh I do know every week to
more or less I have an Idea. You know every week because you
have to physically tell the Horizon system how much cash you have
got so you must know what the difference is because you have to
add it on to your cash. Because when you do when you go to the
Horizon system it will tell you how much cash you should have then
you know how much cash you have actually got so the difference
you have to make up which is what you do every week. Is that
correct?”
™ “Yeh”
cP “So each week you will know how much you are out on a
Wednesday night yes?
™ “Yeh yeh”
29:10 cP “What's the biggest shortage you have come across then”
™ “£3,000”
Discussion reveals that the £3,000 was incurred a month or two
after the last audit in March 2003. That TM had not notified the
Helpline or any other party of the shortage and that he had simply
added this figure onto the cash on hand figure.
29:50 MC Confirms with TM that the method he was using was to inflate his
cash and that he had started doing that in March 03 and that TM
had been inflating his cash every week since.
30:00 MC Informs TM that he has looked at his balance sheets and that the
cash figure stays level until September last year and that September
last year was the first indications of an inflation of cash and then
asks TM if he would like to revise his story.
™ “No I am telling you what I have been doing”
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30:00 MC Says evidence suggests the cash had not been inflated until quite
recently when the cash has gone from around £30,000 per week .
to £98,433.66 for week five. That on the 21% of October 2004 the
overnight cash holdings were showing as £42,669.00. Adding
evidence would suggest inflation starts in September 04 when TM
says it started in March 03”
™ “I have been doing it since then that is all I can say”
31:50 MC Says that the figures do not reflect what TM was saying and at times
some weeks say that there were at times only £40,000 in the office
when TM is saying £25,000 of that was inflating leaving only
£17,000 to run the office.
™ “Yeh that’s right”
MC “No you are not”
™ “Twas honestly”
MC “No no it’s not possible to start on a Thursday with 17 you have
already told us it was an extremely busy office. We have now shot
down your theory that you have been doing it all the way through
because the accounts don’t reflect it”
™ “That's what I was doing you can make whatever you want from it I
am telling you what I was doing”
32.30 cP Says that in June 2004 TM locked up £26,000 and establishes that
TM receives his cash rems on Friday PM and Monday. TM replies
that he has been inflating the figures.
MC “There isn’t enough cash in there to have inflated the figures and to
have operated the office”
™ “That’s what I have been doing”
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MC Says that TM has said that he had inflated the figures by £25,000
and that the evidence is that there is £10,000 to start work on a
Thursday morning. Adding that he thought that the money was
there at that time and TM had taken the money out.
™ “Think what you like mate you can all think what you like I am telling
you I was inflating the figures I have got no reason to take the
money and that is all that I am willing to answer”
34:20 MC Recaps that the post office was audited in April 2003 so that TM had
started from scratch when the following week TM had a shortage of
4 to 500 short of which TM covered up by his admitted false
accounting by inflating the cash every week since April 2004 until
the audit of the 30° of April 2005. Then asks TM if the facts are
correct.
™ “Yeh”
cP “And you know as Mike said what you have done is dishonest and
you said just know the reason you did it was to keep your job or the
post office would have terminated your contract”
™ “Yes”
35:10 MC “OK I have to inform you that you may have rendered yourself liable
to prosecution, you do not have to say anything but it may harm
your defence if you do not mention now something which you may
rely on in court, anything you do say may be given in evidence. Do
you understand that?
™ “Yes”
MC “Do you wish to clarify anything you have said or add anything else
before the end of this interview?
™ “No”
35:50 MC “Iam going to turn the tape off the tape will be sealed using master
tape seal 042884 the time is 12:07 and I am asking you to sign the
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seal please.
Tape turned off at 36:00 precisely
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