Record of Tape
Recorded Interview
Person
Interviewed
Place of
Interview
Date of
Interview
Time
SUZANNE PALMER (SP)
06/02/06
10:30
commenced
Duration of
interview
Interviewing
Officer(s)
44 minutes
LISA ALLEN (LA)
Other persons
present
POL00053009
POL00053009
Exhibit No:
_ Number of pages: 32
Signature of
interviewing officer
Time 11:14
concluded
Tape reference 070926
no
LESTER CHINE (LC)
Tape
counter
times
Person
speaking
Text
0.09
cso15
LA LA makes general in
LA states she would
SP confirms she has
tape-recorded.
SP confirms that she
troductions.
like to ask questions regarding the
audit shortage the Grange PO.
no objections to the interview being
FULL CAUTION GIVEN & UNDERSTOOD.
LEGAL RIGHTS EXPLAINED.
has been re-cautioned and
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Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
4.32 reminded of legal rights.
SOLICITOR NOT REQUIRED AT THIS TIME.
Basically what happened on 3 February which is the
Friday just gone the investigation team received a
telephone call from the audit team who was at your office
with is The Grange in Rayleigh and they'd reported that
there was an audit shortage of just under £15,000.
SP OK.
LA And you’re the sub postmistress of that post office.
SP Yeah.
LA You are yeah? How long have you been there Sue as
sub postmistress?
SP September — 15 months.
LA 15 months right OK.
SP I’ve been in charge you know when Mr Patel left he left
me in charge there for the last 13 months. I’ve only been
5.21 the postmistress for; I've been charge of it for 3’ years.
LA Right OK. Now the result of this audit was made up
basically of £5,100 that you said was in an ATM and
£9,845 which related to instants scratch cards.
SP Right.
LA Yeah do you wanna tell me,
SP Do you wanna breakdown?
LA Do you want to tell me about the ATM machine first of all?
SP OK. What happened was because the PO only deals with
certain banks -
LA Yeah.
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SP - we thought it would be a good idea to have an ATM
installed so that people who couldn't use the post office
they still had the facility -
LA Right.
SP - to draw cash ‘cos obviously they'd leave the shop and
then obviously go somewhere else. So we had that
installed but I wasn’t prepared for how much cash it took.
So-
LA When did you have that installed?
SP Right oh I should’ve looked at the date shouldn't I?
January.
LA Beginning of January?
SP Yeah, can I show, NOT AUDIBLE
6.26 LA I’ve got some sheets here that you gave me on Friday -
SP OK. NOT AUDIBLE
LA If I can just for the purpose of the tape just explain these
are A4 sheets of paper that are listed from Thursday to
Wednesday and then we've got a breakdown of all the
notes and coin it’s written in pencil and there are -
SP Yeah.
LA 1, 2,
SP They're just as we do them every evening. The top here
is scratch cards
LA Your pointing to S&M
SP Scratch cards.
LA Scratch cards.
SP Because that was, they sent me bundles of error notices
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6.48
7.25
cso1sa,
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
that they’d asked me to go through -
Right.
- and they said they needed put and I never agreed with
them. I’ve done NOT AUDIBLE.
So on this particular sheet which is, it’s not dated or
anything, you’re pointing to -
That is scratch cards.
Scratch cards and then it says 2,500.
Yeah.
Right.
That was in error note and they told me I had to put them
through.
Right.
And I didn’t agree with them but she said they had to go
through the system. So I just wrote them as odds
because I wanted somebody to come and sort it out with
me.
Right OK.
But that’s been going on a little while.
How long’s that been going on?
I can’t think. Because I haven’t been in the post office I
couldn’t think how far it went back, but it’s -
Has it gone months or weeks?
Yeah months.
Months.
What they were they were error notices they said that had
been activated. Then they sent me reams of paper and I
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Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
8.01
8.08
cso1sa,
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LC
LA
SP
tried to sort out. I tried to ring them several times, but
obviously they’re only there 9 ‘til 5 when I’m in the post
office and I’ve got all the, I know it sounds stupid NOT
AUDIBLE.
No that’s all right. Yeah.
I just can’t believe that this sorry, so I just wrote it as
though oh it’s written, it’s all
So have you brought the error notices to account, is that
what you’ve done?
I bought them to account because they told me I had to.
Right so -
So it wasn’t NOT AUDIBLE so I just put them through.
Right.
Not trying to but there is nobody to contact now. When
Nick Kerr came, he’s our -
Yeah.
He’s, I used to speak to Deidre South.
Yeah.
She used to, but then they said she doesn’t deal with that
anymore. There is actually nobody. You have to dial
through to the -
Helpline.
Helpline or NSBC
Yeah and then they couldn’t help me. Like when the
office was closed for a week we had no online or anything
and I kept saying to them you know I need some help
here. Nobody did anything. I couldn’t get anybody down
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Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
to come and see me. I mean there was a loss that week
which obviously I put in, you know but they’ve never
explained to me what happened. You know I feel I don’t
know. So that’s that.
LA So 2500 -
SP NOT AUDIBLE cash that I put in.
LA So this is £2,500 this is scratch cards that you brought to
account -
SP Yeah.
LA - and you're basically carrying that as a cash figure -
SP Yeah.
LA - because you’ve not put the £2,500 cash in to account for
the error notice.
SP No.
LA Right OK. So underneath we’ve got 900 and what’s 900?
SP That’s cash.
LA And what cash is that?
SP That I put into the ATM machine.
LA Right that’s outside of the post office?
SP Because if you look on all these, I don’t do it, like I did it,
that’s the carry figure. Unfortunately my accountant. I
cant believe I’m saying this myself. Right because my
books had to go and she had my cheque book and
everything to go with my ‘cos we’re like doing end of year
accounts and that, I didn’t have a cheque book to put it in
but I suppose NOT AUDIBLE. OK but if you look here,
see it’s not here. This is just that NOT AUDIBLE and
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these are odd amounts that we have, you know mutilated
notes
9.34 LA Right OK so these -
SP So the ATM is oh from there.
LA That’s the 8, £900.
SP And that’s where I’ve put cash, where I’ve put it in the
ATM. See where I've listed it all?
LA Right yeah. So you've got, this is the 3" sheet prior to
front one. You've got £900 and you carried forward
£900and that’s just £900 in the ATM machine is it?
SP Yeah that’s just a changed figure because -
LA So that’s all you putting in the ATM machine you say is
£900?
SP Well and then I, like there, oh no I didn’t do that, that’s no,
what's that? You see sometimes people bank late and
then we add the figures -
LA Right you carry them forward and you hold them -
SP If we’ve done the cash dec -
LA Right yeah.
SP - then if say Swallow Aquatics or somebody else bank
late -
LA Yeah.
SP - then we would just add that figure to there, but the 9 is
where I have listed it as cash that I have (over speak)
LA Right so basically you’ve not put the £900 in each day?
SP Oh no, no, no.
LA It's just one lot of £900?
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SP Yeah. It’s just where I did, what happened was the
machine breaks, the machine breaks and then I had the
engineer out and then he said about filling it up. I didn’t
have cash on me.
LA So what did you do then when the engineer said about
filling it up?
SP I just borrowed, used Post Office money
LA You used the post office money? How much?
SP I wrote it on the
LA Right OK so how much do you use at the PO to put into
the ATM machine?
SP That's all that 900.
LA Just £900?
SP And then, I wasn’t there Thursday I have Thursday’s off. I
11.12 don’t know what without asking Mo -
LA Does anybody else have access to the ATM machine or is
it -
SP No only I’ve got, my husband and myself -
LA Just yourself.
SP ‘cos it’s part of the shop.
LA Right.
SP Although it’s in where the post office is -
LA Yeah.
SP - it’s not in the post office.
LA It's not post office business is it? It’s your own private
business.
SP Yeah. I know that that’s -
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Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
11.34
cso1sa,
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
How much did you put in the ATM machine originally
then?
A 1000. We just hold a 1000 in there because I didn’t
know how much it would use.
Right so that £1,000 has that come from the post office
originally?
No that was my money. It’s just where it keeps chewing
the money and then obviously we have to empty it ‘cos it’s
and then as I say when the engineer came out and he
sorted it out then that’s when I’ve put the money in.
Right because the understanding that I had from the audit
shortage was that £5,100 of it was related to the ATM
machine.
No I said to them that’s scratch cards and no.
Right so -
I know I’ve, but then I panicked.
Right OK.
You know when they came I sort of, but this, I’ve all the
documentation for this.
Right OK. You're pointing to the 2,500 for the scratch
cards.
This 14 20 I can’t believe I did this. Is erm, somebody
wanted me to do some specials, 2 special delivery and I
did specials and I should’ve just -
Right that’s, OK. So basically -
It's all written down.
Yeah so we're £2,600 adrift somewhere then aren’t we?
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Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
SP Why?
12.37 LA Because the audit shortage was £14,700 and the instants
were 9,845 and they’ve got down as the ATM machine
was 5,100.
SP Right what happened is on my cash decs -
LA Yeah.
SP - right -
LA Which I’ve got some here.
12.53 SP - there’s a £250 over, but I never take it out.
LA Yeah that’s right.
SP So I offset one against the other.
LA That’s only £247 wasn’t it? That was your surplus.
SP Yeah haven't they taken that, I don’t know.
LA But basically your audit shortage was £14,700.
SP I don't, I didn’t, I didn’t, I just wrote the cheque for it.
LA Right OK.
SP I mean they’ probably, I’m not making excuses they
probably did explain it to me and I’ve -
LA Well on the day they’ve asked you the breakdown and
you’ve said you’ve used £5,100 to fill the ATM machine -
13.28 SP Oh I’ve, when they, ‘cos when they came obviously and
they said what's this I said oh it’s, that’s the ATM and then
they said the other I said it’s scratch cards, but whether
they, it’s my fault.
LA Right OK. So if they’re saying you’ve got £5,100 to do with
the ATM but 2,500 of it -
SP That’s the scratch cards.
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LA Was actually NOT AUDIBLE
SP They’re error notices I'd received.
LA Right we're £2,600 adrift then aren't we? If you take off
your 900 then we’re about what, yeah
SP NOT AUDIBLE
LA - with 17, so this NOT AUDIBLE £1700 what's this 1700?
SP No that is, that’s the ATM money that’s what I said I
haven't put it in.
LA So it’s 900 and 1700 on that day?
SP Yeah.
14.14 LA So right.
LC Which is your 2 6.
LA So that’s your 2 6.
SP Sorry I'm getting, yeah.
LA So right OK. So on that, on the Thursday prior to the
balance you've borrowed £2,600 -
SP Yeah.
LA - from the post office to put in the ATM machine?
SP Yeah.
LA OK. When the auditors opened the ATM machine was
there any money in there?
SP I don’t know I didn’t open it. There isn’t any money.
LA There isn’t.
SP They didn’t open it
LA Right.
SP - it, it, it’s, because again it was chewing the notes it’s
empty again
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15.30
cso1sa,
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
So there was nothing in there. So where was the £2,600
that was supposed to be in the ATM machine, where -
It's been used.
It’s all been used?
Yeah that’s what I said. I don’t know, I didn’t realise how
much has been used.
Right OK. So how did you get paid then? How do you
get the money back then?
It goes into my bank account.
And when does it go in? How soon does it go in?
3 days after, depending on what day. Every night you
have to log it off and then it’s transferred.
Right.
And that’s why then I write, I was gonna write a cheque
once it'd gone through.
Right so basically to fund the machine you can’t actually
write a cheque up 3 days after it’s gone through because
you’d need to take the money out again to keep
replenishing it ‘cos it’s using so much money is that what
you’re saying?
Yeah well see sometime, I don’t just use the post office
and that. If I’ve got a 1,000 in the shop then I'd put my
own money in, well, yeah.
Yeah.
I’m getting confused. Right what happens is, can I start
again?
Yeah go on.
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Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
cso1sa,
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
Right -
You've had the machine fitted -
Yeah and they wanted some money to put in there so we
put that in and then it’s used that and we've refilled that -
Right by your own money.
By our own money, when I’ve had the money.
Right.
Then the machine, I can’t think of dates, but like it goes
wrong and it chews the notes and then I’ve had the
engineer out and they’ve looked, or we've sorted it out
ourselves and put it through and just a couple of times I
haven't had the cash on me to refill the machine.
Right.
So stupidly -
Yeah.
- I've because I’m at the post office so I've NOT AUDIBLE
Right and you’ve been doing that for would you say the
last 4 weeks since you've had it installed?
No only for a couple of NOT AUDIBLE. Yeah that’s odds,
that’s odds, you see that’s the odds
That's a scratch card.
Yeah. There’s nothing there. It’s just the last, since I -
What would you say that goes back -
A week and a half.
Thursday.
2 weeks.
About 2 weeks.
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SP Yeah. It’s something I've, well we haven't, you know
LA So about the last 2 weeks you've borrowed you're saying
money from the post office to put into the ATM machine -
16.59 SP Yeah.
LA - to keep -
SP I didn’t intend to -
LA But how was you gonna pay the money back?
SP Because I write a cheque for it. But I didn’t have a cheque
book that’s what I’m trying to say to you. I'd have just
written a cheque, but obviously now they’ve explained to
me I can’t actually do that.
LA Right yeah.
SP So I realise that, my error there, although I know it sounds
stupid but I just thought if I account -
LA But how would you account, say on the Thurs,
Wednesday when you come to balance how would you
have accounted for that money?
SP Just that’s where we've written it down.
LA Right OK so on your, I’ve got -
SP I counted it as odds. I never put it in with my everyday
cash ‘cos I know it’s not -
LA So like this cash declaration here that I’ve got it was
printed on 4 January -
SP Yeah.
17.39 LA - You've got unusable notes down there, you’ve got 2575.
SP Yeah it says £75.
LA Because 2500 is related to the scratch cards.
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Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
18.32
cso1sa,
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
Scratch cards and 75 is like when we have you know torn
notes and mutilated.
Right OK. So on 11 January we’ve got 2670 as unusable
notes NOT AUDIBLE
So I’ve got 170 -
170.
- that'll be written.
Right OK and then 18 Jan it says 2705 so that’s only £205 -
Yeah.
Yeah? OK. Now on 25 January it goes up, it goes up to
3562.
That’s probably where I’ve put, that’s 25 Jan which is
about a week and a half ago which would include like
where I've -
Right.
- I've used the money and I’ve written the cash dec.
Right yeah OK. So that would account for that then
yeah? So you've got £900 left according to your sheet
you've got 2,500 which you've inflated the cash to
account for the error notices for the scratch cards.
Yeah.
And £900 that you’ve put into the ATM machine.
Yeah.
So that 3, 4 so it’s a £162 that you actually got on hand
for miscellaneous spoilt notes or -
Yeah that, and that it’s all written NOT AUDIBLE
And that’s all written down there I can see that there.
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Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
18.56
cso1sa,
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
Yeah.
And there’s an odd -
£2.18 that’s pennies.
Yeah you've got some odd pennies there.
Yeah.
Right so basically that figure there, apart from the odd
£162 been inflated because of the ATM machine and the
error notices for the scratch cards yeah.
Yeah.
That incorporates the hole.
Yeah.
OK and that’s the same, the cash declared that day which
was 25 Jan which was £71,175.42. It’s the same figure
that’s on your final balance NOT AUDIBLE
Yeah ‘cos count for, I know, I Know I’ve used it where I
shouldn't but I’ve always accounted for it. I’ve never just
thought oh I can just take it out and not -
Yeah but what you're doing you're -
I know.
- you're producing something and saying in the post office
is X amount of money where in fact it’s not there.
No.
Yeah? You've inflated the figure to say that yeah all the
money that belongs to the post office is in there but really
it’s not yeah?
Yeah.
Now these -
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19.58 SP I understand what I’ve done.
LA The final balance on that day is there and you’ve actually
got an over of 228.89. Is that your signature there?
SP Yeah.
LA It is. Who is who actually entered all those figures into
the computer? Was that you or?
SP I do that.
LA You do that. The unusable notes.
SP Well Mo did it that day.
LA Mo did it that day.
SP She just, she just NOT AUDIBLE otherwise explained to
her what it is and she just, well she just
LA So upon your instructions.
SP Yeah I mean you know she'd, I’ve always explained to
her, there’s nothing hidden.
LA Right.
20.34 SP I’ve always explained what I’ve done. Like when the
auditors came and they said oh no one would know and
she, although she knew she, it wasn’t something she did.
LA Right.
SP Do you understand what I’m saying?
LA NOT AUDIBLE
SP NOT AUDIBLE
LA - figures from the sheet that you've written down.
SP Yeah.
LA Yeah? Right OK. So the first week it happened then with
the ATM machine was week ending 25 January.
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21.15
cso1sa,
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
LC
LA
SP
LA
Lc
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
Yeah.
Yeah ‘cos that’s the week where it increases by the £900.
So again on week ending 1 February we've got £3,529.
It's the same figure yeah.
So, yeah basically you’ve got £2,500 -
Just carrying that figure.
And the £900 and then the odd bits, which is genuinely
there.
Could I have a drink of water?
Yeah sure.
Shall we leave the machine on?
Yeah we can leave the machine on.
Yes
Yeah Lester will just get a quick drink.
OK can you just time it?
I just want a -
Right it’s a, that’s alright. 10:51 and Lester’s just leaving
the room to get a drink.
You know there’s -
Right I'll just have to ask you not to speak while Lester’s
not in the room. That’s the only thing. He'll get you a
drink, bring it back and then we can carry on.
Alright.
Are you warm, ‘cos I put the heater on?
I'm OK.
You're alright.
Yeah.
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Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
LA Because I can turn it off.
23.44 LC RE-ENTERS THE ROOM
Thank you. You alright to carry on?
SP Yeah.
LA Yeah OK. Right so we got up to 1 February again the
unusable notes and the cash declaration done by
yourself. The user ID on this one is SPA004. Is that
yourself yeah?
SP Yeah that’s me.
LA OK. It was 3529, which is obviously the 2,500 scratch
cards, £900 and the odd bit of cash that was actually
there.
SP Yeah.
LA So again we've, it’s £3, 400 that ‘s not actually in the post
office.
SP OK.
LA Yeah you agree with that?
24.24 SP Yeah.
LA This final’s been date stamped but there’s no signature on
there.
SP Oh OK.
LA Alright. Have you got anything you wanna ask Lester?
LC No, well I mean that obviously do you realise that when
you sign your cash account at the end of the week are
you aware of what you’re actually signing?
SP Yeah.
LC Do you want to explain to me what, what it is you're
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Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
24.57
cso1sa,
SP
LC
SP
LC
SP
Lc
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
actually -
Signing to say that what’s on my balance is what's there.
It's what there yeah. So you realise that obviously what
you've actually produced is a false cash account?
Yeah.
You do understand that?
Yeah, yeah.
OK.
I just didn’t see it like that.
How did you see it then?
It seems stupid even to me now.
Did you not think -
There’s no defence for stupidity is there really? I just put
a few cash machine and write it down and then put the
money in. I never intended to steal it. It wasn’t a,
Did you think what you was doing was dishonest?
No, well no.
You didn’t?
I just thought I'd fill the cash machine.
Yeah.
I didn’t know. Yeah, no.
But are you aware that you're not allowed to use post
office money for your own use if you like?
Well yeah I knew you couldn't take the money out of the
post office. That sounds stupid doesn’t it?
But is that not the same difference taking it to an ATM
machine is -
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26.10 SP Now I’m sitting here, now reflecting on it yes.
LA You realise what you’ve done is wrong?
SP Yeah, oh yeah.
LA Yeah. OK have you got anything else to ask NOT
AUDIBLE?
LC No.
LA No.
LC Not at the moment.
LA OK.
SP I just, in the cold light of day yes I see it you know.
LC In terms of the 2500 which you've explained relates to
error notices that you’ve brought to account, how long
have you been holding -
SP A few months.
Lc A few months.
SP Yeah.
LC What are we talking about sort of November, October
November time maybe?
SP It might've been before that. What happened was they
sent me loads of error notices over scratch cards that
have, and I’ve got reams of paper that they just sent me
things through and the lady, I’ve tried to ring her and I said
to her I don’t agree with, I can’t make out what is here. I
can’t understand it.
LA Right.
SP And I’ve tried to sort it out and I rang her like several
times -
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27.54
cso1sa,
LC
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
Mmm.
- trying to sort it out and she said they have to go, you
know you have to bring them to account. So, but I’d
never been able to, so I yeah I just put them through and
then I thought I’d be able to sort it out at some point. Not
quite in this way but -
So you was holding them in the hope that something
would come back?
Yeah I mean its’ like with I know it’s a larger amount but
it’s like the £253, like they said to me I could that out
because -
It was surplus for the week.
Yeah. I mean I just never touch it. I know it isn’t mine, I
know that something’s gonna come back somewhere. It’s
like when, that’s what I said, when we had the week
where the whole system went down, it took them a week
to fix it, but they had no online, but they still said that I had
to keep the post office open, I’m still taking in giros. I
couldn’t put them through the system I couldn't do
anything. I was holding a whole week’s, and I kept ringing
them up and saying I’ve got over a 100 odd thousand
here. You know I want it noted that this is what, and
that’s what I said I've never had any back up here.
When was it this happened then do you remember?
That was August and is it Nick Kerr?
Nick Kerr.
He even sent e-mails to whoever, you know, lots of them
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where they tried to, ‘cos like there was a shortage that
way and they just said oh you know you've got to put that
in which obviously I just did. I mean, and I just said surely
these errors will come back.
LA Right.
SP I mean the system went wrong on Saturday. I rang the
helpline straight away. They said they’d get somebody
out Monday. They sent somebody Monday who didn’t
have the right box part
LA Right.
SP He went away and came back with the wrong part and
then they, they even said what do we do, they said just
carry on taking and I said what about Swallows, you know
Swallow Aquatics and all the business men I said I’ve got
no online banking. I can’t do any off reports, I can’t do
anything.
LA Right.
SP So and I had to carry on for a week and then on
Wednesday they finally brought me the right box for the
computer but didn’t bring didn’t bring a printer that was
compatible with it so I couldn’t even do the office balance.
So they made me shut on the Thursday, when he came
with the printer on the Thursday they said they’re not
allowed to carry the ink with the printer. So I was a whole
week and I kept ringing people saying to them you know I
need help here. Somebody’s got a, I’ve got all this
money, I’ve got all these giro’s not going through the
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30.02
cso1sa,
LA
SP
LC
SP
LA
LC
SP
LC
SP
Lc
SP
account, everything is a mess and that’s what I said. I
sort of and it might be after and I’ve forgotten where I was
going now rambling on. But that’s what I’m saying here
like that’s what I said, but when the 5, I’m not sure if it’s 5
or £600 there was in error that week. But! kept thinking
well the errors are gonna come back. You know like they
send you an error notice and like with these I thought
they’ve sent me an error but it will come -
You’d think it’d compensating one.
Yes that’s what
But normally error notices are sent to you because you've
made mistakes in previous weeks. Error notices are
normally generated because you've made mistakes.
There about 8 weeks aren’t they behind.
Yeah sounds about right
Something like that yeah.
Yeah so then I’m thinking if that’s what I said like with the
surplus they said well you haven't taken it out, but I said I
know it’s not mine. It’s not my money I know that.
But for that 2,500 had you had 2,500 worth of surpluses in
the sort of months prior to receiving those error notices?
No that’s what I said.
You haven't?
That’s what I said to you I thought, I mean I still have
these NOT AUDIBLE you've got it all in the post office.
I’ve still got everything that relates to that NOT AUDIBLE
and I’ve just got pages and pages of white -
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LA What are the losses like at the office generally ?
SP Well they, it like goes from a 100 over to a 100 under. It’s
like a -
LA A bit up and down are they?
SP They're a little bit, yeah they’re a bit erratic. They’re, but it
seems to like last 3 weeks ago we balanced and all week
I haven't got the figures here, but we were like running a
£100 wrong and I said to Mo look we count all the money
again that we'll unbag all the money that we’ve done up to
rem out and count it all again and then just on the
Wednesday I suppose it could’ve been in the stamps
couldn’t it, but it then comes back are you with me? It’s
sort of like one over takes the other. So like whereas
that’s £250 over and they said to me I should’ve taken
that out to make my balance correct.
LC Yeah that’s what you should do.
SP But I never touch it because I just know that when the
errors come back -
LC Well all you do is you take that money out, put it in a pot
or a bag -
31.46 SP But I’m saying nobody’s every shown me this. That’s
what I’m saying.
LC Right.
SP Like when we get to the instants, Milan who I took over,
he they’re pots, everything was in pots and I used to, well
the first thing I did was did away with the pots to start with
and I got a till we’d be able to lotteries, scratch cards and
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32.32
cso1sa,
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
everything -
Right.
- and that, obviously that money is in with my everyday
banking (over speak)
NOT AUDIBLE now if we can go onto the scratch cards.
The scratch cards are sold in your private business yeah
the shop?
Yes.
Yeah OK.
Then what I do is -
What happened?
- every few months and then I'd put the money and as I
said to them on Friday nobody’s, I’ve done it before I’ve
got my cheque book with me that shows you where I've
written cheques for like 3,000 of the scratch cards and
then before I took over Milan I think he came in and put
about 9 or 11 and that’s the way it’s always, and I’ve
known any different way to doing that.
So how often, you sell the scratch cards in the shop -
Yeah.
- yeah and how do you get a total of how many scratch
cards you've sold that day?
They’re put on my till. I’ve got -
You’ve got a separate button on your till for the scratch
cards.
Each day
So each day you press the total button and it'll tell you
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33.08
cso1sa,
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LC
SP
Lc
SP
you’ve sold £100?
NOT AUDIBLE and then we take all that home with us
and then we sort it out and then it goes onto our computer
tells us how many scratch cards and then after -
Why do you take it home with you?
What?
The scratch card money?
It’s in the till. The post office is shut when the post -
Right so that night you take the day’s takings -
I just take it all home.
Right.
NOT AUDIBLE and I never sort it out there I just take it
home with me.
Right OK, so when do you bring that back to the post
office the scratch card money?
Well I just write a cheque and write a cheque for it. We
bank it and then NOT AUDIBLE we put it in our Nat West
account and then I write a cheque for it.
Wouldn't it be simpler just to bring the cash back into the
post office ‘cos that’s where it’s gonna go to be accounted
for in the post office?
Well yeah I know that now. That's what I said I just
followed on doing -
But wouldn’t that seem the simplest way of doing it
anyway? If for argument’s sake at the end of the day -
Well if you came and somebody showed me how to do
that, what I’m saying is when I took over nobody ever,
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34.48
cso1sa,
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
Milan just, I mean you know the history of the office don’t
you?
Yeah.
When Basker went and then his brother in law, no his
Jay’s brother in law took over didn’t he?
I didn’t know that.
Yeah.
Right OK.
He bought it and then obviously I didn’t want to be
associated with Basker and I went to work for Mr J Patel
at Bridgewater Drive
Yeah.
And then he said to me, the one I worked at before was
up for sale did I wanna buy it with him?
Right.
And I didn’t really think that was such a good idea but ‘cos
l'd worked there and I lived like 2 roads away and I’ve
lived there all my life my husband and I decided to buy it
and from the day I said I'll buy it Mr Patel left. And that
was it and run the, and I’ve never and I’m self-taught
through doing that. Andy was there for a while.
Who’s Andy?
I can’t think of his surname, but he was -
He took over temporarily didn’t he?
He was there with Milan and with Basker
Right.
And then he was there for a couple of weeks. Even he
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never said to me with them scratch cards should go in
every night. Nobody ever, and then when I had when I
became the post mistress -
LA Yeah.
SP - ‘cos obviously it was still Milan’s business although I run
it for him, that’s what I’m saying, although I was there for a
while
LA Yeah.
SP - still his business and everything, it was like his, and then
as I say when I had a letter to say I was taking over 10
September, he came down he put all the scratch card
money you know in But it was always the money, the
money was always in a pot, it was in the post office.
LA Right.
SP It was never put, I can, I understand what you're saying,
but that pot so I mean there was no way I was gonna
leave pots of money all over the shop.
LC No, no we wouldn’t expect you to do that.
SP But I, no, I’m, don’t get me wrong I’m not making excuses
I’m just trying to explain.
LA Yeah.
SP You know I know what you’re saying and like since then
Friday, Saturday, Sunday every night I’ve counted the
scratch cards and I’ve left Mo a note with the money which
is the way it’s done.
LA But why didn’t you, with the national lottery the online
lottery yeah,
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36.24
37.15
cso1sa,
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
Lc
SP
Lc
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
I do that every time. It’s stupid.
But why do you do that every day, but you don’t do the
scratch cards everyday?
Because we take that home and then we sort that out. It’s
sort of separate. The lottery money right -
So you take the lottery money home as well? The
national lottery money home? The online game you take
that home as well?
No we sort that out there and then I leave that there do
you know what I mean, ‘cos I’ve go the print outs. I get the
two printouts.
Right.
But if you went there today you’d see that Saturdays and
Sundays is sort of left there. That's separate money.
When you get the print out for the online do you also get
the print out for the scratch cards at the same time?
Payout, the payouts, not anything else.
Not the sales?
You only get the scratch card sales when the shop closes
is that what you’re saying?
Yeah.
When does the shop close then?
6 o'clock.
So that’s half an hour after the post office.
Oh yeah, but that’s what I’m saying I could, now I realise
that that’s the way it should be done every night or
whatever
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37.33
cso1sa,
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LC
But don’t you do the lottery then as well when the office
closes, ‘cos surely you could do more sales?
I do it the next morning.
You do it the next morning?
Yeah we just stick the two little things under the NOT
AUDIBLE
Right so what happens to the lottery money then that
night?
It's locked in the post office?
You lock the lottery money in the post office but you don’t
lock the scratch money in the post office?
No ‘cos I don’t sort it out ‘til later, well NOT AUDIBLE
OK so you take the scratch card money home because
it’s part of the shop takings if you like, but you know that
night how many have been sold?
Yes.
But you still don’t take that money back to the post office
the next day to be put through -
I now know that is really bad.
How often do you look at it then?
Well we, my husband does that side of the accounts and
then we put them on our computer and then we add up
and then I put the money in for the scratch cards.
And how often do you put the money in for the scratch
cards?
Once every 3 months.
3 months!
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SP Yeah.
LC So how are you accounting for yourselves each week on
your cash account?
SP We don’t have to account for them do you. You just put
them in.
LA You show a figure of how many -
SP You've got.
LA - how many you’ve got on hand basically don’t you each
week?
SP NOT AUDIBLE
LA Yeah.
SP So when they're activated we put them straight through
the system.
LA Right I’ve got -
SP You know when you get little slip -
LC Mmmm.
SP I know, I know it sounds crazy even to me.
LA This little schedule that I’ve done basically details your on
hand instants and your national lottery sales al right?
SP OK.
LA So week ending 23 November you had £8,480 worth of
national lottery instants cards.
SP OK. Actually I didn’t realise it had grown to ‘cos obviously
the Christmas period NOT AUDIBLE. Like the other day
we fill up like 1200 in a day. Are you with me? That’s the
equivalent of, I know it sounds a lot but we sell NOT
AUDIBLE
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39.03
cso1sa,
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
You sell?
Lots.
Lots. How many do you sell a day?
On Saturday I think she sold 206.
Right and is that a busy day is it Saturday?
Yeah. Saturdays is.
Right because you started off with this figure 8,480 in 23
November and then 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, the following week sorry,
you ordered some more scratch cards in.
That's right yeah.
But why would you need more if you've got that many on
hand to begin with?
I haven't have 1. 1 I’ve sold them.
Well exactly so how many do you actually hold on hand
really at anyone time ‘cos you’re showing nearly 9,000
and you're ordering 1700, but in fact that figure’s probably
quite a lot less.
We hold we've got a full dispenser then I’ve got another
dispenser like full, ready. When they go low then I -
If we say at the audit on hand there’s £755 -
But I already had others there that hadn’t been activated.
Although I’ve loaded them in we don’t activate them until
we use them.
Right. So you have plenty on hand?
I’ve got -
So all these ones here that I’m showing you are all
activated ones yeah because it shown that’s how many
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40.51
cso1sa,
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LC
SP
LA
SP
you’ve got on hand?
If they’re activated then I’ve put them on the system.
Right. OK. So the activated ones when the auditors
come in on the first or they come on the 3° -
Yeah.
- but on Wednesday night when you balanced you
showed that you had £10,600 on hand where in fact on
the Friday you only had £755 so basically 9,000 odd
pounds you wouldn't have sold those would you.
So when we do our total we look at that and then I put
that when we’ve added up NOT AUDIBLE we put that in
and the obviously there’s obviously still some outstanding
‘cos we've used them since that period of time.
Right so how often you say you wouldn't put a cheque in -
I wouldn't say I do it regularly no.
No you wouldn't, so when you balance the figures that
you’re showing on your balance -
Are wrong
- they’re all wrong. They’re all inflated because that’s not
actually true figure of what you’ve got on hand.
As I say when if you, if you, I know that’s not -
‘Cos we're not selling them and putting the money in your
bank account effectively the post office money is in your
bank account. That can’t be right.
Well it’s in cash in here.
What you keep all the cash at home?
We have to that’s why I bought my bank ‘cos they charge
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cso1sa,
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
LA
SP
me to bank cash so what we do we bank our money for
all our direct debits and Menzies and everything -
Yeah.
- and we use cash for cigarettes and our shopping. We
don’t have any accounts with anybody. Everything we do
we buy.
Right.
And then there’s surplus cash -
But you wouldn't -
- Because we've got a safe at home.
But you wouldn't put the scratch card money in the bank
would you ‘cos it doesn’t go in the bank it’s got to go back
to the post office. When you sell the cards it will say -
Yeah but that’s what I said, sometimes
- you owe us a £1,000.
- when I get my salary, I don’t use my salary because it
costs us money to bank the cash.
Yeah but that’s what I’m saying you wouldn't have to bank
the cash because you put it into the post office to pay for
the scratch cards.
Yeah I see that now.
Yeah. Have you been -
That’s why I’m saying I see that now.
Have you been using the scratch card money as part of
the business money to buy your stock and your cigarettes
and -
No
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LC
42.16 SP
LA
SP
LA
LC
SP
Lc
SP
Lc
LA
SP
cso1sa,
So there’s 9800 quid in that bag
Yeah which I’ve tried to bank ‘cos they made me write a
cheque. That’s what I said to them you’ve made me write
a cheque (BUZZER SOUNDS) and the money's not
there. I tried to tell them that, but on Saturday I tried to
bank it and it’s not open.
Right OK we'll put another tape in Sue and you can have
a little break. I'll get you another glass of water.
But I know how stupid, the cash is there.
OK.
Right we'll cover that in the next tape. This is master tape
seal 070926. Suzanne can I ask you to just sign your
name above where I’ve printed it please?
Sorry.
It’s all right, it's OK. I'll just get Lisa to sign it as well and
then we'll -
Do you know what in black and white it seems so stupid.
All right . Well we’re gonna stop the tape now. We'll
have a quick, we'll have a break for a couple of minutes
let you compose yourself. Time?
It is now 11:14. Stop the interview.
It's not -
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