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Record of Taped Interview
Short Descriptive Notes
Record of Taped Interview Summary
Fult Taped Interview Transcript (delete as applicable)
Person interviewed: ALISON HENDERSON (AH) Exhibit No:
Place of Interview: POST OFFICE COUNTERS TRAINING ROOM =I Number of pages: 20
NORWICH
Signature of interviewer producing record
Date of interview: 413.10 Time commenced: 11.08
Tape reference no.: 071654 Time concluded: 11.51
Duration of Interview: 43 MINUTES
interviewing Officers: CHRIS KNIGHT (Ck) PAUL WHITAKER (PW)
Other persons present: KEITH NICHOLLS - BRANCH SECRETARY
(KN)
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times speaking
Voice identification of everyone present and the nature of the enquiry
explained. Permission to tape record given.
1.20 AH cautioned and reminded of legal rights. AH told she is not'‘under
arrest and is free to leave. Form GSO001 completed and signed - No
Solicitor present.
4.24 The Royal Mail Employee Rights to a Friend at an interview or search
form GS003 completed and signed. Offer of friend - friend present.
8.25 ‘An audit was carried out at the Worstead branch on 10" February when
a shortage of £11.957.78 was found.
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8.55 CK First of all can you tell me anything about that shortage?
AH No.
CK Alright well was it a shock to you when the auditors turned up and
found that shortage?
AH Yeah.
CK Ok have you had any shortage in the branch up to that point?
AH Not before no.
CK Right have you got any idea why it would be short?
SJ No.
9.40 AH states she is the only person working in the branch under user ID
AHEO01 with her daughter covering holiday relief. The branch is in her
house with no retail attached. The hours are Monday, Tuesday 8.30 to
5.30 and Wednesday Thursday 8.30 to 12. They close Fridays and
Saturdays. AH continued she does all the end of day work and branch
trading statements. She could not recall problems with balancing in the
last 6 to 12 months. AH said the shortage was a complete shock
12,00 AH was informed that £11,963.15 was identified as a shortage in the
cash, £20 down in stock and £25 up in postage.
12.40 AH shown branch trading statements from April 09 to 10" February.
13.00 AH states she has a separate entrance to the Post Office but she
accesses it from her house. She said the safe is always locked with a bit
of working cash in the drawers which is then placed back into the safe at
night.
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14.05 PW Do you think anybody's been in and stolen any money off you?
AH Don't think anybody I know that would so.
PW Right so there's I mean it's a difficult question family members or
anything like that you don’t think anybody's been in and taken any
money?
AH Well would you implement your family?
14.20 PW Well I don’t know I mean I don’t know your relationship with your family
so but you're quite happy that everything seems to be ok in that
respect?
AH Yeah.
CK Like I say the branch trading statements the last one on the ao"
February and that showed a cash in hand figure of £8,669.57 which
was the amount of.
AH Sorry when was that?
CK That was on the 10" February that was the one I believe the auditors
completed. So the one going backwards to that, the last one that was
completed by yourself was on the 6" January, if I just show you that
one.
AH Ok.
CK There's the period date, you understand what the branch trading, all the
you know it's got your Post Office, the dates the period it covers and it's
got a cash on hand figure and on this particular one it’s showing
£16,712.83.
AH Ok.
15.34 CK Ok so I'll ask you the question, when that was completed was that
amount of cash in the safe?
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AH Well I should imagine so if that’s what's there.
CK Right ok. How do you get to that, how do you, when you say yes you
imagine so.
AH What do you mean how do you get to it?
CK When you say you imagine so, do you count the cash?
AH Yeah.
CK So what you're saying is rather than imagine so, yes the cash was there.
AH Right ok.
cK Is that what you're saying?
AH Yeah ok yeah.
cK So when you've completed this, tell me if 'm wrong, when you've
completed this you've counted the cash and the cash £16,000 would be
there you would have counted that cash?
AH Yeah.
PW You input that figure onto Horizon?
AH Yeah ok.
cK Is that how you do it, what I'm trying to do I’m just trying to clear up
rather than this imagine yes it might have been, what I'm trying to find
out at what point?
AH Well I can’t remember to every.
CK No no.
AH I mean I haven't had these I requested all this so that I could go through
this but obviously nothing’s come back so.
16.52 CK I'm asking you when you do them, presume you do them every month
you do them the same way?
AH Yeah.
CK There’s nothing different about each month and obviously counting the
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cash and putting the figures there and then it produces the balance and
away you go.
AH Yeah ok.
CK Ok what I've also produced, again just from the cash in hand figures, just
a little schedule just to show, for the benefit of anybody listening to it,
it's just got the dates and it’s the date of the period end for the branch
trading statements so the one’s that I've got and the cash in hand
figures and we're going, starting off on here the end period gt of 4h
2009 showing the cash in hand figure of £14,179.58.
AH Ok.
CK So every month the next month 3° June it’s 20,500 just over, 8h of
(indistinct) August, there’s one for July one for August is 19,4 then
September is 22,9, October is 17,000, November is 20,000, December
is 15 4 then we go onto the one we got there the January that's 16,7
then we got the one on the 10 is 8,6 ok so they're all running at I
suppose we could average somewhere round about 20,000 just put a
slight average of just round about £20,000 and the last one is £8,000
and we know that the audit shortage was about £12,000 so the 8,000
plus the £12,000 shortage is tying in with the rest of those figures,
would you agree with that does that seem quite logical?
AH Yeah ok.
18.57 cK Ok so we do know that on the 10" of the 2" when the auditors came by
that there was £12,000 not there that should have been there.
AH Ok.
CK So !'m trying to find out at what point did that £12,000 disappear or it
wasn't there alright and you're saying to me it was a shock on that day
that's the first you knew of it and that's right and is that right?
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AH Yes.
19.40 When asked if the branch trading statement dated 6"” of the 1° is
correct, AH said to her knowledge it is.
20.12 PW Right ok so all that money that Chris has just mentioned the cash on
hand that was all in your branch on that day if that was correct ‘cos you
just said to do the branch trading statement you count your cash put
the figures in Horizon and it produces the branch trading?
AH You know you're asking me the same question 3, 4, 5, you keep asking
the same question and I’m giving you same answer.
cK No no no we're just trying to make sure that we're giving you the
benefit to understand what we're asking you.
PW What we're saying because we're looking for £12,000 at the moment
aren't we?
AH Yeah ok.
PW So we've got to go back to the last time that we knew that the £12,000
was there.
AH And when are you saying that was then?
PW Well we're saying we can only go on what's in front of us and we're
asking for confirmation if that’s the case, you produced a branch trading
statement on the 6” January 2010 and if what you said about the
branch trading statement was correct that all the money was there
because you counted it and that was the figure that was there.
AH And I'll say again to my knowledge it was so.
PW Right so yeah to your knowledge so all that money was there on the em
January so we're looking at somewhere in the last 4 weeks between the
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6"" January and the what was it the 10" February that £12,000 must
have gone missing in that 4 week period, is that what we're to assume
that's all I'm trying to get at?
AH All you've done the figures you've drawn your conclusions so.
PW No I'm trying to, like I say I'm not after.
AH You know I've answered that same question can we move onto the next
one.
cK Well we can do and what I'm saying is I haven't drawn any conclusion
I've just transferred the figures from the branch trading statements onto
a sheet to make it a bit clearer so I can explain to you.
AH Right ok.
22.00 CK Ok. "ll show you another this is a taken from the transaction log ok and
this is dated 6" January and it gives your AHEOO1 which is the user ID
employ ID they call it and then the branch trading statement is created
ok so that's basically when you did the branch trading staternent for that
branch trading statement that we've shown you the 6" of the 1°,
AH Ok.
CK Alright. I'll show you another one and this is another part of the
transaction.
AH Oh and you do have to forgive me I’m not very good with figures.
22.56 CK Again this gives all the details of the Post Office and the date 14h
December and basically what it says it gives you it's the transaction
when you do transactions if you're selling stamps everything is on the
transaction log even if you sell it and then reverse that transaction out
50 you haven't actually done the transaction that all comes up on the
transaction log everything you do comes up on the system ok. Now
going through here when we get down to the 6" of the 1 again all the
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tires when you were doing the branch trading statement, it’s showing
you discrepancies. Now the discrepancies in there are showing as
£10,000 and then it shows £11,000.
AH Ok.
CK Which is give or take a few pound the figure that was found in the audit
as to be in deficit so what I'm saying to you is when you came to do
your branch trading statement on this particular day, the system
produced a loss it showed you that there was a loss.
AH Right.
CK Ok so you knew that there was a loss.
AH So then you re-go through everything and pick it up is that what youre
saying?
CK I don’t know I'm just saying, I don’t know I’m saying to you this is what
the system has said that there’s a loss ok.
AH Ok.
24.35 cK And it just happens to be like I say give or take a few pound what the
audit found 4 weeks later alright?
AH Mm.
CK So I'll ask you on that day can you recall having a problem with the
branch trading statement?
AH No I can’t recall having a problem but then I quite often do and just have
to pick through and sort it out. You know if your stamps and whatever
are out then you have to go through and recount.
CK Right and that’s find and as I said to you the audit result stamps were
up and down give or take sort of £5 they were pretty much correct, the
cash was wrong by the best part of £12,000 come the audit so what
we're saying is, you're saying to me on the 6" when you did the branch
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trading statement everything was ok and it all balanced in the end and
everything was ok. 4 weeks later when the auditors came in it was
£12,000 so in that 4 weeks from what you're saying, £12,000
disappeared.
AH Yeah ok.
26.04 CK Now obviously I've had a look at-your transaction logs over the last
couple of months and you don’t have a very large amount as in value
for specific transactions ok so to lose £12,000 in 4 weeks have you got
any idea what's happened with that?
AH No.
CK Would it be something a transaction that you've done wrong bearing in
mind that the highest transaction I saw was about £400 in the last
couple of months?
AH Weil I don’t know that’s why hopefully you're looking through it and
you'll sort it out you'll find it I don’t know.
CK Well what we're looking at going by what you're saying is in 4 weeks
from the January te the February you lost £12,000.
AH Ok.
CK I don’t believe that is where we're looking I believe that this money was
gone long before January.
AH Well if that’s the case why was it not picked up before then, I mean if
you know every transaction I’m doing and everything I'm doing why was
it not picked up before?
CK No no we're not talking about every, what I’m saying to you is the audit
came to you and you're short right?
AH Right yeah.
CK But you're saying to me no no no hang on a second everything was
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right on the 6".
AH As far as I can remember.
CK Right so we're looking at, well it’s a lot, it’s £12,000 not a few pounds
it's £12,000 I'm saying to you the system gave you a discrepancy then
you're saying that well sometimes yeah and I find it.
AH What do you want me to say that you know the day before this I decided
to have a nice holiday on 12 grand?
CK No I'm not saying that the money went in one go what I’m saying to you is
I don’t believe that the money went in the 4 week period that you're
telling me it did go in.
AH ok.
CK I think the money had gone either in dribs and drabs or whatever long
before that over a period.
AH Well as I say if that was a case and you can pick this up and every
transaction I do on that system is picked up then why was, if it started a
long time ago as you say why was it not picked up before then, why do
you wait until it's 12 grand if you think I'm taking out 5 here or 2 there or
whatever do you understand what I'm saying?
28.39 CK I understand that but I can’t see why you're asking that because you're
saying to me.
Pw These investigations are done retrospectively, the first point that the Post
Office turned up at your door was when the auditors turned up and the
auditors went there for whatever reason, it might have been, I mean I
don’t know why the auditors turned up it might have been because they
saw anomalies in your figures I don't know, I don’t know why the auditors
turned up we didn’t ask them to go they just turned up as part of their
programme but the first time that Post Office ask you to present to them
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all cash and stock relevant to your office that's proper to the Post Office
you were unable to do that so in a way you've answered the question
yourself the first time the Post Office has come to your door and said can
we have, can you show us everything that’s ours you've not been able to,
you're £12,000 short so I understand what you're saying that you know if
it's, if we think it's gone missing a long time ago why haven't we come.
AH Yeah which is what you're saying.
PW It's not that we pay Sub-Postmasters a remuneration to operate the Post
Office to our standards and our standards are that when the auditors turn
up to give us the money and show us the money show us the vouchers
etc etc which you were unable to do so what, I think what we're dancing
round here is like Chris says is we don’t think this money has gone in the
last 4 weeks, I don’t think this was a surprise to you and the auditors
coming, I don’t think at all it was, I think you've known about this for a
long time and basically you've been covering it up.
AH Well that’s, you know you're entitled to think what you think.
30.23 PW Well if we look back at the facts of how they are, you're a small office that
does very very little large transactions, if you were a Trafalgar Square
Crown Office in the middie of London and you were £12,000 short you
could look back through your Giro in-payments you could look back
through your application for premium bonds or whatever and see a
number of large transactions whereby £12,000 could have gone missing
in here in there, I would suggest that if £12,000 has gone missing in 4
weeks at your branch which is what you are claiming because you said on
the 6" everything was fine.
AH As far as I can recollect yeah.
PW Well this is as far as you're aware, that’s your branch trading statement
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that you produce at the end of the trading period to say that is the state
of my accounts, that is the correct state of my accounts, if it” not it
shouldn't have been produced, the purpose of the branch trading
statement is to show an accurate reflection of your accounts at the end f
that trading period. You're allowed to do trial balances beforehand and
you look at the trial balances and if they're wrong you do it right and the
branch trading statement is that's it it is right it's not, to the best of my
knowledge it's right or it could be right, that’s your branch trading
statement.
AH Well I've only ever done them to the best o my knowledge that's all I can
do and that's all I, I mean one day training in the classroom.
PW And what's the best of your knowledge Alison?
31.45 AH That everything was fine.
PW So you are maintaining that everything was fine.
AH I'm not going to keep going over and over this I've answered the same
thing can we move onto the next.
PW Well you're maintaining that everything's fine so are we to look at that 4
weeks period ‘cos it makes it easier for us to look at a 4 week period.
AH You know at the end of the day I know that I signed a contract 13 years
ago that said any shortfalls I have to make good, any overs I can keep so I
know the outcome of this is I'm either going to be able to get a job geta
loan and pay the Post Office the money they think I've taken or they're
going to prosecute me so you know I know that that's going to be
outcome so this is all relevant really to me.
33.26 PW So what's happened?
33.31 AH I don’t know and I can’t say any more I'm not prepared to say any more
I've got no other answers to give you.
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33.55 AH maintained she does not know where the money has gone.
34,22 PW Do you produce cash deciarations at the end of each day's trading?
AH Yeah.
PW Right what were the cash declarations?
AH I don't know, I don’t know what they are I mean I haven't gone, most of
my paperwork is, the main paperwork is with the Post Office, the cash
declarations are there but I haven't gone through them ‘cos I haven't,
didn’t think I'd need to.
PW Well just off the top of your head were your cash declarations saying
£8,000 or were your cash declarations.
AH I don’t know off the top of my head because whatever figure I say I'm not
going to implement myself in saying I don’t know what are we on here, I
don't know I could look at a figure I’m not, I don’t know ok, I don’t know.
PW Were they correct?
AH To my knowledge yeah.
PW So to your knowledge they were correct so whatever the cash
declarations were, whatever they were and forgive me I haven't got them
in front of me, but whatever the cash declarations were, that was the
amount of cash that was in your branch?
AH Or yeah or sometimes if I hadn't done one the night before or when I
closed up it would flash up and yes I've actually sort of just used it as the
day before so.
35.34 PW But to the best of your knowledge like you just said the cash declarations
that you declare.
AH Oh.
PW They were, I'm confirming understanding that's all Alison I have to
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apologise sometimes I'm a bit slow but I have to confirm my
understanding so at the end of the day when it asks you for a cash
declaration a quick count of the cash and what you put in that figure, that
figure that you put into the computer bar a couple of days like you say
when you put in the previous days one is the accurate figure of the
amount, the notes and the coins that were in your branch?
AH Well if you take a quick guestimate then yeah.
PW Yeah there or thereabouts I accept cash declarations it's a bump bump
bump bump bump but they would certainly not.
AH Right so there we go right now I've answered it 2 or 3 times.
PW But there was certainly not £12,000 difference?
AH } don’t know.
PW Well you do know Alison if you count the cash you know whether it's a
quick bump bump bump or not whether there’s £8,000 or whether
there’s £20,000.
AH 9 times out of 10 I probably didn’t even look at the figure at the end.
PW Well you've just told me your cash declarations.
AH So I would assume that they were, you know if it was from the day before
or the other day that I hadn't done and it flashes up and tells me then
yeah it’s rough idea I would think.
PW Is it rough to assume that there’s £12,000 difference?
AH I don't know until I look at them I don’t know ok.
PW Alison can we remind you of what this is and can we remind you of the,
you know the caution that Chris explained to you at the start?
AH Mm.
PW ‘Cos we don’t want you to think that if you sit here and say I don’t know
what's going off at an office that I was responsible for, an office that I was
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responsible for putting the figures in the counting for, the Post Office gave
me all these cash to look after on their behalf I don't know where it is [
don’t know what's happening I don’t want you to think that that’s good
enough for when we go away and someone looks at this and decides
what's to happen next that people think well that’s alright then.
AH No I know at the end.
PW There is suspicion in relation to his.
AH I know and that’s what I said to you just a little while ago I know at the
end of the day that I signed a contract.
PW It's not contractual it's legal.
AH To make.
PW It's legal criminal.
AH Yeah alright.
PW You're in a criminal interview.
AH Yeah if you let me finish I was going to say I signed a contract to say that I
would make good any losses I could keep any overs and I know at the end
of the day I've got to try and get a job to try and pay the money to the
Post Office that they think I took.
CK Right but that.
AH Then when that’s happened and after that I also know that the chances
are you're going to prosecute me, I know that but irrespective of what I
say here that’s going to happen so it’s.
38.30 It was put to AH that it was difficult to believe she does not know what
has happened. She was reminded of the caution.
39,30 It was put to AH that she had created a false account and that she had
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stolen the money and she was informed this was her opportunity to
explain why the account was £12,000 short.
41.10 cK You haven't stolen the money is that right?
AH I haven't and I go back to this if you say that this a year ago was there,
why was it not, if you thought that I'd taken the £12,000 a year ago why
did you not, why did Post Office®
cK What I'm saying to you I'm not saying that £12,000 was taken in a bulk at
a specific time.
AH Right so alright over this period of time then.
cK Let's say it’s 12 months.
AH They know exactly what I’m doing every month on that system with that
computer.
CK But we don’t check every transaction and every Post Office every, it’s not,
it's when something is flagged up then action is taken
PW Retrospectively we can see the figures that mean suspicion but at the
time
CK All I'm saying to you I've pulled the figures off these figures are only just
taken rather than passing 12 bits of paper around I've taken them out
and listed them so you can see in front of you in one bulk where they are
ok and what I’m saying to you is as I said at the beginning the last figure
that we know is correct it's just over £8,500 that’s what actual cash you
had that rest 12,000 was missing should have been there and I'm saying
to you going back to the figures you include what {et’s say you were
reporting, you had reported about £20,000 which ties in with the rest of
the figures over the year so I'm saying at some point I believe that this
wasn't just in 4 weeks that £12,00 has gone that £12,000 has gone over
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a period of time and obviously it’s gone over a period of time I believe it's
gone in chunks ok?.
AH Ok.
42.45 CK So we're here asking you what’s gone wrang with Worstead Post Office
and you're saying it’s all gone wrong in 4 weeks £12,000 has gone from
the safe I don’t know how it's gone it’s just gone and that’s what you're
telling us.
AH No that's what you're telling me.
CK No no, this is where we go round and round.
AH Ok so can we move on because we're not going to resolve this particular.
43.22 CK I'm repeating what you've told me and I want to confirm that that is
correct so we don’t suddenly go oh no what I meant was this later or I
should have said that I meant to say that I want to be 100% sure that this
is your opportunity to tell me what has gone on at that Post Office and
why £12,000 was not there when it should have been there?
AH !'ve got nothing more to say really because we're just going to go round
and round in circles.
43.56 CK Right you're saying that you know nothing about this money is that
correct?
AH I'm not saying any more I've said it all it’s all on there, ! really don't what
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Master tape seal signed on number 071654
Interview terminated at 11.51
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