List of Exhibits
interview Bundle
THE QUEEN -V - PAGE é
POLUUUG2Z0/ 9
oot
OFFICE
COURT IDENTIFICATION
PAGE SHORT DESCRIPTION OF
EXHIBIT MARK
NUMBER * NUMBERS EXHIBITS RETAINED BY
259 HUNT/T1 Not copied Legal Services
7 Impact House
260 HUNT/TT4 1-26 Transcript of. 1” taned interview 2 Edridge Road
+ CROYDON
261 HUNT/T2 Not copied I 2" 7: f Interview withGRO; CRO 1PJ
n 13” January
2003.
262 HUNT/TT2 27-67 Transcript of 2™ taped interview
with I 3.01.03
I.
263 MP/86 Not Copied I Master tape 21/C:G/995/03/01 of,
interview wit GRO i
01.04.03 (Stalford Police station)
264 MP/87 Not Copied
265 MP/88 68 - 89 ript of Interview with
GRO fon 01.04.03
I ZT/CGIS95/030T
266 MP/89 90-111
‘LHICGIIISIOS02 ~
267 MP/103 112-113 I Typed statement from;_GRO_I
+ GRO of01.04.
268 CJAI2 Not copied I Master tape 21/CG/109/03/1 of
interview with C A Page 13.01.03
* e.g. AB/1 etc.
csot2
Version 3.0 11102
List of Exhibits
THE QUEEN - V - PAGE
PULUUUOLILO
COURT IDENTIFICATION
PAGE SHORT DESCRIPTION OF
EXHIBIT MARK E
NUMBER * NUMBERS EXHIBITS RETAINED BY
269 CJA 114-151 I Transcript of interview with C A
Page on 13.01.03
270 CJA/4 Not copied I Master tape 21/CG/109/03/2 of
interview with C A Page 14.01.03
271 CJAIS Not copied I Master tape 21/CG/109/03/3 of
interview with C A Page 14.01.03
272 MP/84 152-186 I Transcript of interview with
Mr C A Page on 14.01.03
21ICG/109/03/2
273 MP/85 187 -219 Transcript of Interview with
Mr C A Page on 14.01.03
21/CG/109/03/3
274 MP/90. Not copied I Master tape serial No. 058037
Interview of C A Page 23.04.03
275 MP/91 220-249 I Transcript of Interview with
Mr C A Page on 23.04.03
- (068037)
276 MP/92 Not copied I Master tape serial No. 058038
Interview of C A Page 23.04.03
277 MP/93 250 - 284 Transcript of Interview with
Mr C A Page on 23.04.03
(058038)
278 MP/94 Not copied I Master tape serial No. 058039
Interview of C A Page 23.04.03
279 MP/95 285-320 I Transcript of Interview with
Mr C A Page on 23.04.03
(058039)
“e.g. AB/1 etc.
cso12
Version 3.0 14/02
List of Exhibits
THE QUEEN-V-PAGES G
POLOQUUG2Z9/5
COURT IDENTIFICATION
PAGE SHORT DESCRIPTION OF
EXHIBIT MARK RETAINED BY *
NUMBER ® NUMBERS EXHIBITS
280 MP/96 Not copied I Master tape serial No. 058040
Interview of C A Page 23.04.03
281 MP/97 321-355 I Transcript of Interview with
Mr C A Page on 23.04.03
(058040)
282 MP798 Not copied I Masteritape serial No-058041 =I. >
Interview of CA Page 23.0403
283 MP/99 366 — 359 Transcript of Interview with
Mr A Page on 23.04.03
(058041)
* e.g. AB/1 etc.
cso12
Version 3.0 14/02
POL00062573
fe)
&
HM CUSTOMS AND EXCISE
FULL TRANSCRIPT OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW
INTERVIEWING OFFICER PHILIP HUNT
INTERVIEWEE
DoB
OCCUPATION
ADDRESS
DATE OF INTERVIEW 13TH JANUARY 2003
TIME OF INTERVIEW 17.02 HOURS
PLACE OF INTERVIEW STECHFORD POLICE STATION
NAME(S) OF OTHER PERSONS MR SOHAIL - SOLICITOR
PRESENT AHUDSON - CUSTOMS OFFICER
HUNT: This interview is being tape recorded it may be tendered in
evidence if your case is bought before a court. We are in an
interview room at Stechford Police Station. It is now, er, 17.02
by my watch on Monday 13th of January, 2003. I am Philip
Hunt, Officer of Custom and Excise. The other Customs Officer
present is
HUDSON: Anna Hudson,
HUNT: [
“Will you please state your full name and your
date of birth.
j GRO
HUNT: Also present is your legal represtative.
SOHAIL: Ghulam Sohail, Solicitor from Challinors, Lyon, Clark.
HUNT: Before the commence... commencement of this interview, I must
remind you that you are entitled to free and independent legal
advice, at any stage. If at any stage during the interview you, er,
wish to have consultation with your solicitor, please indicate that
to me and we'll suspend the interview. You've had a an
opportunity to speak to your solicitor, for the last forty or fifty
‘EADocUMENIS and Sellingsinatnesddiblu. Recimants\Manish-POK~NW\OrlenderstReporting & Closure\Otfondars\Manich
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POL00062573
POL00062573
oO minutes, erm, and the reason why this interview is taking place
so late in the day, after you, you were bought to the Custody
Suite at quarter past ten is because we were waiting for your
solicitor which, would arrive and that will noted in the Custody
record.
SOHAIL: in fact I was told he was not ready for interview until at least at 2
o'clock, because he’d been certified as not being fit, until then,
by a Medical Practioner, and then there was some subsequent
delay with my, with me getting here.
HUNT: At the conclusion of the interview I will give you a notice
explaining what will happen to the tapes and how you can have
access to copies of them. I have to caution you now that you do
not have to say anything, but it may your defence if you do not
mentioned, something which you later rely on in court; anything
you do say may be given in evidence. Do you understand that?
Yes.
Okay. When your solicitor arrived at the, erm, Police Station I
showed him a form that we call a Disclosure form, and the
Disclosure form, basicaily states the reasons why you've been
arrested, today. What I am going to do now is I am going to read
that Disclosure to you, I haven't discussed that with your
solicitor. I'm going to read that Disclosure to you. If you wish to
say anything, you have been cautioned, so anything you do say,
may be used in evidence. I've asked you just to listen to it, then
if any, if you have any questions, ask me about them and then
we'll suspend this interview this, this tape is purely to deal with
the Disclosure. Okay. The Disclosure notice reads which your
solicitor has already had sight of. Since January 2002/GRO)
~ is known to have visited a number branches
of Thomas Cook and other foreign exchanges, in the Midlands
area on a regular basis. On each occasion he has desposited
large sums of Euro notes in cash. The amounts have been
exchanged into Sterling and credited to the business accounts of
ae) RPX Recycled Plastics Limited, a company of which:
CADocuments and SsttingsloatemadsMy Doouman{s\Manish~POL -NyOtiendars\Reporting & Clesure\Otfendars\Menish
PalelRugeloyTransczipte GRO. [st rtoriew ee
oo
SOHAIL:
‘CADocuments and Sottings\ps
PatahugeleysTrenscziptl
an explanation is soug!
POLOQ0629/ 5
is a Director, and subsequent to these deposits
known to have visited the sub the Post Office in Rugeley, where
he has purchased large sums of euro notes, which are paid for,
paid for by presentation of cheques, drawn on the business
accounts of RPX Recyled Plastics Limited. Toda - GRO ;
has deposited Euro notes with the Sterling equivalent of an of in
excess of 8 po... 8 point five million pounds. The level of the
business of RPX Recyled Plastics Limited declared on VAT
returns does not appear to substaniate the amounts of money
_passing through the company bank accounts. It is suspected that
tis involved in laundering the proceeds of crime, and
e transation he has conducted,
and I'll give that to you
that.
And, and if I can say a couple of things on behalf of my client. I
_}So you have a hard copy
was allowed the opportunity to read this document before hand it
would have been impossible to have taken it all down verbatim I
didn’t made a hand written copy of if, so this is the first time that
we've got full and open access to this document. Although you
mentioned to my client, at the start of the, this interview that this
was only a Disclosure interview we're happy for you to carry on
and interview this man and if that’s what you propose to do, at
this particular stage, on the face of it, this document doesn’t
appear to disclose a prima face the case of my client to be and
detained at this Police Station full and if you propose to produce
some further Disclosure we'll reconsider our position, erm, at that
stage. Now my clients view, at this stage, is he’s happy to listen
to you, in terms of any questions you want to put to him. He'll
consider his position, in terms of response as we proceed. He’s
unhappy about being arrested, this morning and he wasn't
cautioned, this morning that is his case and he was man
handled, erm, with the unnecessary use of force by who he
believed were people seeking fo steal a substantial amount of
money, which he had upon him, I'm documenting his position
inis\Mfanish-POL-NWiOlfendars\Reporting & Closure\Otfendecs!Manish
"at intendaw.doe (3)
POLO00629/3
formally at this stage. Now he’s been unwell this morning which
o is what caused the, the Police Custody Sergeant to request that
a Medical Practioner come out and see him and my client will
consider his position later on in terms of legal redress and if that
comes, becomes appropriate and {'m unhappy with the very
limited amount of Disclosure that has been given to me, which in
my opinion doesn’t disclose the reason for my client, er, being
detained. Notwithstanding all of that, if you want to proceed with
an interview, at this stage, then we're happy for you fo do that.
HUNT: Okay.) GRO I Do you have anything to say, with
regard that Disclosure?
No, ask, ask away.
Okay. No, I mean what I said and the question was, as a result
of what I've handed you there. Do you have anything you say to
me.
SOHAIL: Our view before this interview was that you weren't going to
answer anything at this stage. And you hear what the Officer
had to say to you, and I repeat that view.
Sorry.
Our view before this interview was that you wait to see what the
Officer had to to say ..
«Yeah..
vfO you.
Yeah,
And you'd consider your position then.
Yeah, Yeah, I’m looking for this position. What can I say.
Okay. Erm, you were arrested.
Well ask a question. Yeah, ask a question.
You were arrested, this morning.
Yes.
With a large sum of euros.
That's correct.
Okay. And why did you have the euros.
Manish-POL-NWOffonders\Raparting & Closure OttendarsiManist
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Because I was taking them to the Hypermarket to have paid into
my account. Transacted into Sterling and paid into my account.
Okay. Why were you having that transaction done?
Because it's a, a course of er, part of my business.
Okay. And what business do you do?
I do recyled plastic and that it's non-biodegradable material, it’s a
pretty new thing. Erm, from non-biodegradable that these, erm,
plastic bottles, plastic waste and it is now there is now a form of
transferring that into granules and then it's made into, erm,
plastic forms, mainly for industry, and I have clients over the U.K.
who we converting and moving from wood, to plastic. Non-bio
degradable plastic, so they've taking all the wood out of industry
and moving into piastic and that, the way I pursue that I have to
have the moulds made and last year I'd worked in the industry
for about four years, erm, and then started my own company,
after the knowledge of you, my, my background is thirty five,
thirty six years in the steel industry. So steel people want me to
sort out their problems, as far as storage is concerned. So that
was the reason for starting up RBX. So I'd got an order book,
but last year was a full year of research and development, mainly
and trading was minimal, because we have to have moulds
made and samples taken and samples delivered to clients for
clients to test, clients like Corus, BMW, Honda. All these people
are clients that I deal for.
Okay.
And so then, last year and being my first year of business
because, er, was the year that we just started to kick off and then
{ took on another, er, sales director. He's not a director of the
company but our sales director, Gary Elsey to assist me because
he's got a colossal knowledge, in the plastic industry.
Hmm..hmm.. okay..
And our, sorry, and our suppliers,erm, are in just outside the
South of France and and they ****** doing all research and
developing with us and where my moulds are and, erm, then [
C:ADocuments and Settingsinatemagdiby Rocunan's\Marish-POL-NWWORondars\Repeting & Clowre\OMendersttonich ~
~__GRO______fstiniorview.doe ©
POL00062573
re) have the plastic made there, and bought over to here, have
some fabrications made and install it into the factories.
Okay. Yeah. And so how do those how are those euros linked
with your business.
Well originally it was just matter, er, because, erm, I'd bought the
Euros, at a good rate and everything I purchased over in France
I purchased with the euros, and that way I was getting sort of a,
an eight percent if you like, hedge on, on my purchasing power.
HUNT: With **** sight, you say you bought the good.. the euros at a
~~ good rate.
GRO) Hmm. hmm.
HUNT: Okay, and you then used those euros to purchase goods in
France.
_GRO_
init. initially, yes, initially, yeah, and then along the way I still do.
And this year I mean, a figure could be, well in excess but along
the way it occurred to me, a one that I saw that, erm, in actually
fact what I didn’t use, I was making, making more money on
selling the euros back to, erm, the people like Thomas Cook, and
that's, that’s roughly it.
HUNT: Okay. How do you.. how do you get such a good rate, for your
Euros?
t don’t know, erm, how do I?
Hmm..
Well I'm putting down at the, the particular Post Office wants,
wants as much business as I can I can put to them.
HUNT: oo Okay, Erm..
GRO I So it’s a volume buy and the more I buy the higher the volume,
the better the rate I get. ;
HUNT: Okay.
[GRO _I __ Top, top volume and as much as.
HUNT: Okay. Now then and what you've told me then there are all sorts
nen of avenues we could go down.
.) HUNT: But like what I'd do is..
‘C:ADoournonts and Settings lsiManish~POL-NUMOFTonders\Reporting & Closure\Otienders\Mnish
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POL00062573
«Yeah..
.. is to start with..
Start with, yeah.
Where is this capital originated from?
Where is due capital.
Capital.
it didn’t arra... originate from anywhere.
Okay. You're ***** okay.
There wasn’t any capital...
So there's no..
The capitals accumulated, over the year.
Okay. Over this year?
Hmm..
Okay. And where how.. how do you accurnulate that capital?
Mainly in profits from the, from the euros, in the first year, next
year it will be, I should say go seventy thirty the other way round.
Okay. So..
Well bear in mind if it's search and development year you see
SO, ef,..
That so you're accumulated capital at the moment then. How
much, what, what figure would you put on that accumulated
capital?
I couldn't answer that without my accountants..
Hmm..
they're just preparing my year end so.
Okay.
Yeah.
Who are your accountants?
Midas.
And where are they based?
There based on Walsall Road, erm, Walsall Road, Cannock.
Okay. Have you got a ball park figure did you say a million quid.
Well I would hope ball figure. No I haven't got an exact, no.
C:ADocuments ang Satingslostemadéiktx Dacuments\Manish-POL-NWMOffenders\Raporing & Closure\OMndersiMrish
PatehRugeieyitranscipta GRO fistiterdew doc
oe a
POL00062573
I would that I would have accumulated roundabout three or four
thousand something like four hundred thousand.
Okay. That's sterling. That it is sterling.
Yes, yes, yeah.
Okay.
I [mean that would, that would, that would represent that isn’t
~ cash, that would be in assets you know, stock that would
represent not as cash pile, but the value of the company.
Okay. What's, what’s the value of the moulds you own?
Erm, I would say roundabout twenty thousand.
Sterling again.
Hmm..
Okay. What other assets do you have?
Stock.
Stock in what?
Erm you know plastic.
Oh, right.
Yeah.
The actual form stuff. And where is the plastic.
I've got.. that’s stored at Bilston.
: Whereabouts in Bilston.
Erm, that’s at, er, my, I've got a fabricator there, he does the fab
the, erm, the steal work.
Hmm..hmm..
I And then, er, the plastic goes into steel work and then that's
delivered then you know people gets them on site.
Okay. And can his name and address?
Er, it's Geoff the fitter and he’s just a new company name. His
name and number are my telephone, anyway.
And whereabouts in Bilston is that?
It's, er, the top of, erm. Do you know Bilston at all?
No, I don’t.
No, you don't. I forget even the name of the road. It's off the
Bilston, it's off Wol at, it’s off the, it’s off the Bilston,
C:\Documents aad SottingsloatemadaiMy Documents\Maniah-POL-NMOndars\Reporing & Closure\Oftenders\taanish
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Wolverhampton Road, anyway, on a factory estate up there a big
factory with the little units on it, yeah.
HUNT: And how if [ wanted to find it. How would I find it?
GRO ~ I Well Pd, I'd suggest you give him a cail and then just sort of and
a he'd give you the exact location.
HUNT: So, er, and how much. What's the value of your stock, at the
moment?
GRO _ I Er, of plastic I would estimate, er a fifth, oh, between fifteen and
— there or, or there and abroad?
HUNT: Let's talk about Bilston, first.
Fifteen to seventeen, fifteen, fifteen, twenty.
Aye.
Between fifteen to twenty.
That's, okay.
Yeah, yeah. With..but resale higher than that obviously.
Sure, okay, and what, what type of plastic is it?
Non-bio degradable.
Okay. Does it have any other particular way of identifying it.
_ Any chemical name or anything?
No, it's non-bio degradable recycled. It's recycled non-bio
degradable plastic.
So, ail that is granules.
That's what it starts from, yes.
Yeah, yeah, okay. And what form is the plastic in?
Now.
Yeah.
{t's in coil cradles, coil cradles.
Okay. Okay. And you have plastic abroad?
Er, yes there are. I couldn't tell about the amount, there in
production at the moment because I’ve got a big job.
Whereabouts?
In Gardan.
And where is that?
Gardan just east of Marseilles.
CADogumants and Setinggiaalamac¥ihly. DacumestsiManish-POL -NW\Otlendore\Reporting & Closure\OfiondersiManish
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10
HUNT: And do they, what do they make there for.
They are part of the tester industry group.
Okay. And what are they making for you?
I They are making saddle pallets, cradles, erm, and various other
dunnage.
HUN’ And what is dunnage?
— G RO I Dunnage is anything that you use for storage blocks. Basically
owoeeeeeeneeneennennt in g storage...
Okay.
.. and panelling steel.
HUNT: Okay. Erm, but you can’t put a figure on what the value of that
stock.
down there.
Okay.
Hopefully.
Okay. And who do you deal with, at this company in France?
Er, Christof Atestor. Christof Testa. Testa.
TESTA.
Ughm...Ughm..
_, Okay. And is he well on the name of his company is?
I Testa Industries.
Testa Industries.
The company he, that company’s called MP Industries, but it's all
owned by the Testa family, Testa Industries.
Are they, Oh, are they well known in their plastic trade then?
Yeah, and not only the plastic, irrigation and all sorts of things
but it’s about a forty million concern. ~
HUN Okay.
P ~ GRO I “I They deal with China and all over.
HUNT ' Okay. And do you own any other assets, there's RPX and other
asset?
Er, only my house.
CADocuments and Setting
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iL
Okay. And that's in your company name or is that in your name?
No, no, no, it’s my mortgage I have a mortgage on that property.
Erm, no boats or anything like that, planes?
No, boats or planes or.
Any other accounts, erm, obviously we're aware of your business
account your RPX accounts.
No, no other accounts.
Okay.
Well, er, sorry, no, no, no..
___We no you... You have accounts.
__fes have account there all at HSBC.
Okay.
Erm, and there’s the RPX account and my personal account, a
savings account and all linked to, and all linked to RPX.
Okay. Now the first time your bought euros, in a largish amount.
Well largish amount what, what you ..
Ten thousand, ten thousand pounds worth say.
That would I, I mean it started off I suppose with the, erm, we
were going to ireland, the first and I bought punts at first off him I
got just an exceptionally good rate and then we..
.. Right.
..it was purely for holiday things.
Okay.
And then it, if you like a gradual.
Hmm..
Avery gradual started off.
Yeah.
Holiday hits and things.
Yeah.
And then tick, tick, tick great. What can do with this?
Sure.
And with me dealing with, erm..
.Hmm..
..France called *****I’'ve opened an account with and there's in it.
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12
Right.
I With the, er, H, er, Marseilleuse credit Marseilles for their part of
” HSBC.
- Oh, right, okay.
Lo GRO I And HSBC are in the midst of opening a Euro account for me
here as well.
_ Right.
GRO So that will elevate me being wondering round the Country with
ee great big bags of cash.
HUNT: Okay. Right. Now the money that you change. Is it your
money?
No, it’s the company’s money.
Yes, it's company money, yeah.
Yeah, RPX money.
Okay. It’s not an amalgamation of other companies monies.
No, no.
Okay.
No, purely RPX.
Purely RPX.
It purely belongs to the asset the, the profit on it, everything to do
with it belongs solely to RPX, and I am employed by RPX.
Okay.
Albeit on you know own sort of thing.
Yes, indeed, okay.
And my accountants can sort of I mean obviously they do
everything my accountants...
~Hmm..
... pay a lot.
Sure.
Filling in the VAT returns and do the whole lot, everything and
i'm quite happy for you to discuss obviously go through with
them...
..AHmm...yeah
and they will...
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im, Pm.
--Y@S..
.. m not the best of accountants...
That's very helpful Mri_
.and you can..
Yeah, thank you.
Have full access, at any time so that’s the only, you know..
»Hmm..
... worry fo me at the moment as why didn’t start route in the first
place.
Indeed, thank you.
That's, that’s what's give me great concern.
Okay. Now, erm, you've basically have, have indicated that you
did some currency dealing well you mentioned punts but then
well then talking mainly about euros ****
No, I said went for holiday.
You did yeah, holiday money, yeah, yeah. sorry.
Yeah, and before the euro came out and then Ireland went to
Punts and Punts went fo euros and Francs did the same thing.
Then you notice.
But when euro started.
Yeah.
it started from the start of the euro.
Indeed.
That was... that said that no, oh no, no huge before then or
anything like that, a one amount here and there and *****, .
HUNT: Indeed, but you, you, in your initial statement fo me you
mentioned that you well basically, your realised that you, you
were ch... buying euro’s for your business, but then you realised
that you could actually make some money on the.
“GRO I
On the reside that { didn’t need. yeah.
I Yeah.
GRO_I
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HUN And, I mean like today...
i Hmm...
... there was five hundred and eighty odd thousand euro’s.
Five eighty four, yeah, because I’d been out in France all last
week.
Right.
So it had accumulated, while I was away.
Yeah.
lt had accumulated that’s why there was such a big amount.
Okay. How did it accumulate, how did it ...1 don’t understand
how your money accumulates.
it was bought, well if it whatever the post I book it with the Post
Office and say what, whatever you can get for this week..
Yeah.
..for the end of the week, I will have, { will buy off you.
Okay.
And give me a cail and I'll come in and buy it from you.
Okay. And, how look you'll have to bear with me..
Hmm..hmm..
. just, well just if you could listen to what everything [ say..
Yes, of course, yes.
Ermm..
Yes.
Well you say it accumulates but you must be selling something
or generating the money..
»No..
.. for it to accumulate.
No. Why.
Okay. Well erm, that’s how, that's my’understanding of
accumulation you see it’s you said it’s, it's things that you've
gathered.
... They, they accumulate, no they accumulate.. the, the Post
Office accumulates the money.
HUNT: Oh.
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So they have some come in one day and some come in another.
Oh, I see misunderstanding you.
Okay. I was away in France.
Right.
Normally I would have got into the Post Office probably three
days, last week or two days.
So do you. How often. How much do you ask to buy from the
Post Office?
As much as they can get me.
Oh, really.
Oh, yes.
Right.
lll have whatever they can take, obviously.
9
And this is using, so you buy as much or as many euros as
possible.
Yeah.
From the Post Office.
Yeah.
Okay.
So even when I don’t need the.. for the actual buying products, I
still get euros.
Yeah.
Euros if they're available, whatever's available.
Okay. And who do you. Who you deal with at the Post Office.
The manager.
And who is the manager?
Carl Pace.
Carl Pace. Is that..
And then he's got two..
PACE.
Two, yeah. PACE.
Yeah, yeah. Hmm..
And then he’s got two there were two girls there, Margaret and if
he’s not about then they, they have it all organised for me.
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HUNT: And the name of the other girl was Margaret...
Pd hazard *****Jane I think it's Jane, if I’m wrong you.
Okay.
There's just two assistants.
HUNT: Okay. And what do you say to the erm, to the Post Office do
you... do you phone Carl up or do you give him a written order
and say buy as much as you can.
..™"*"* when I pick up one lot.
HUNT: Hmm..
r tll say. Get me what you can for next week.
Right. And why, why can’t he, why like you, like today you've
had erm, sterling equivalent say for three hundred and seventy
pounds worth of euros on you.
Hmm..hmm..
HUNT: Why can’t he just give you three hundred and seventy pounds
worth of euros, in a one off. Why does he have to get it in each
day?
Because he can only bought I think from a from a Security
perspective. He can only order up to a maximum, I don't, I mean
{ don’t know. There, I think there’s ceiling on what he can order..
HUNT: ...Yeah..
... during the course of a day and then obviously if he’s got other
people who are needing euros on a particular day then he hasn't
as many spare has he.
HUNT: Hmmn.. right.
And {don't think he can order an indeterminate amount.
HUNT: Why, why do you think that he can’t order an indeterminate
amount.
. Oh, that’s, that’s far that’s not a question I've asked about.
HUNT: Has he.. has he not told you that.
H { don't discuss his business.
HUNT: No.
.. he doesn’t discuss mine ****
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Right. But you've never to said to him. Can you do me three and
seventy grand, today? At...at some stage you must have been
aware that he can only order up to a certain finite figure of euros.
Well I would never know I mean.
In what context did that conversation take place.
Well I don’t understand what you're saying.
What I'm saying is that you must have discussed how many
euros he can buy, each day, because you say, you say you, you
get it, iet him accumulate a certain amount before you get it.
No, no, no I didn’t say I let him accumulate.
Oh you ask him.
I said, no, no, no, no.
Yeah.
Have you've got it wrong. I said it did accumulate.
Hmm...
..fo this amount.
Yeah, I see.
Because I wasn't in the Country to pick it up.
Indeed, yeah, okay.
That's why it accumulated. I didn’t say accumulate this amount.
Okay. So..
.. If 'd had been in the Country and he ..
..does he know.. how does he know how much to buy you then?
Because I'll tell him that buy whatever he’s got to sell...
» Okay..
. and Pil have whatever he's got to sell, separate to what he
needs to..
So, you, you will tell Mr Pace “l'll buy all the euros you've got to
sell me” *** say next week he turns up with three million pounds
worth of euros. What are you going to do then?
I'd buy it.
And where would you get the money from to buy it?
If he took my cheque, I'd give him a cheque, because I buy and
give, as know. I buy everything by cheque.
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SOHAIL:
HUNT:
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Right. Okay. Now but you did... did..
I said I do cheques.
What I'm trying to say is. If he accumulate.
I don't thing for one minute if'll go up to a large amount he'd let
me have a miilion pounds worth, I mean no that’s, that's going..
Hmm...
.-far beyond.
Well how do.. well how do you know he's not going to pull out
something like that out of the bag if all you've, ail the
arrangement that you've got with him is, is I'll buy what you can
you supply.
He would give me notice of that, he wouldn't say, I wouldn't
come in one day and say well I've got a million quid’s worth here.
Yeah.
He'd probably say..
I think we are moving on to conjecture here.
Yeah, we are moving on to a lot of conjection.
Hmm, we are nearly, well yeah, well ****** settled the *** you ...
I'm trying to be as open as [ can.
Hrom..-*
And expiain to you what..
ich
i can't see what the pointis.
Now what I'm trying to get is.. is to be. What I’m trying to
understand is the arrangement you have with Mr Pace and the
agreement you have to buy euros.
ft would be like any other arrangement with any other business
that I've got.
Hmm...
I buy from A and I sell to B.
Oh indeed.
And if there’s a profit in it..
Him...
then I will buy.
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Indeed. Okay.
it's exactly the same as I’ve run ail the rest of my business.
indeed.
And it’s all gone through the business.
Yeah.
And it's logged in the business.
Okay.
i'm 89 years old, I haven't had, I’ve been a business man a lot of
the time, I've had my ups and downs.
Hmm.:
And over the last two years things have gone well.
Hmm...
From a hard working point of view. You must have looked at my
background and all sorted me out. I’m as honest as the day is
long, I don’t even rob that till of fifty euros for my own use,
without [I don’t put an expense or a marker in for if or it’s been
booked to my account.
Okay.
I'm out to build..a
When..
.. terrific business, in this new industry.
When did you first meet Mr Pace?
When did t first meet him? When did I first go to the Post Office,
ugh, well I suppose the first time I ever went into Rugeley Post
Office I've been in Rugeley five, six, six years I've been in.
Okay, and what was your.. and why did you go to the Post Office
that day?
Oh, for Gods sakes, I've gone in for tax my car, I don’t think this
is, sorry I mean.
Was it fo buy euros?
Not six years ago, there wasn’t euros.
Okay. Was it to buy currency, six years ago?
Probably not.
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HUNT: Okay. How did your relationship with Mr Pace develop and how
did you become aware with him selling you euros.
Because { was a customer taxing my cars and then, then buying
stamps. Er, what do you go into a Post Office for, all sorts of
things.
Okay. Right. Now.
And then of course, the obvious thing, when if you remember..
. Hmm...
...the Post Office went into a great competitive market saying
they weren't going to charge any, any erm, commissions, right.
Hmm..
You remember that happening.
Well no, I'm aware of that.
{twas about three or four years ago.
I'm aware of that.
And they said we'll beat anyone, anyone’s rates.
That's right. yeah.
So prior to that I'd been using the banks.
Hmm...
No commission, no percent. So when we went...
Hmm...
.. L. Pwent on holiday.
Of course they take it out by offering a lower exchange rate.
No, they don’t they are very good.
Hmm..
I mean if you went to a Post Office normally you'd get a good
rate.
Now, why do you always go the Rugeley Post Office?
Why do I always go because they'll by ...
SOHAIL: “** more reason **** Could you be more specific on that.
Because it's only two it’s only two miles **
No i'm asking the officer.
HUNT: Yeah, sorry. You go there for.
Yeah, what, what do you mean. Why do I go there?
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Why do you, why do you go to the Rugeley Post Office?
Because I live in Rugeley.
Okay. Erm, have you ever bought euros from any other Post
Office?
Erm, no.
No. Okay. And erm, you, you tell me you've mentioned earlier
that you get a very good rate of euros.
Competitive rate.
Competitive rate.
Yeah.
Okay. Fine.
it varies I mean I don't get the same rate all the time (coughing in
background),
HUNT: No, of course not, of course not.
I mean and he'd have I’ve brought from I don't know one or two it
covers a range over the year, you don’t at moment the rate is
very low.
SOHAIL: Are you prepared to disclose if you've got a statement from Mr
Pace? A Witness Statement from Mr Pace?
HUNT: Erm, no, I, I, ’'d just...
SOHAIL: .. Yeah...
HUNT: . father continue asking Mi GRO} questions.
SOHAIL: Yeah, I know but I asked just that question..
HUNT: «Hmm...
SOHAIL: .. Ate you prepared to disclose that statement.
HUNT: I, 1, 'm not in any position to answer that.
SOHAIL: Okay.
HUNT: Now. Okay, so we've, we've dealt with your business and you
started buying euros in effect for your business, but then you
realised you could make er, er, a percentage, a return on
actually just buying them and selling them to Thomas Cook...
... That's correct, that's correct.
or an High Street, er, Bureau De Change.
That's correct.
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Okay. All these monies go through your accounts.
1 Yes.
O iccounts.
Go through you
Yes.
Okay. How are you.going to show these in your, in your
accounts.
You'll have to ask my accountant that.
Okay.
That's not up to me, that’s up to my accountant.
Are these going to be showing because obviously you’re going
“ is dealing with recycled plastics.
HUNT: Are you going to set up another company, to deal with your, your
money changing.
“GRO __No, No. I'd be much better I'd make more money by buying
——"" plastic with the euros, than converting it. Instead of making four
percent I'll be making thirty percent.
HUNT: But for a year you've been..
Because he’s funding the business, yeah.
HUNT: Okay.
3 So the turnover will now, this year and my sales, right, will go
higher, because all the research and planning has been done
with all the companies...
«Okay...
. and I’ve got an order book for the future.
So all your, erm, all your money changing will go through on your
RPX account as income company..
. Income for the company... yeah, yeah.
Okay.
“GRO I And then at the end of the year that’s why it's important for me,
—"" at the end of year we're getting our accounts off very quickly, so
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that I'd show a good healthy credibility when people check up on
the company pretty straightforward.
Okay, er, right, now with the recycled plastics industry.
Hmm...
You mentioned that you've, you’ve been in it for six.. five or six
years.
About five years, yeah.
Okay. Umm...How did you and why did you get.into it from the
steel industry?
fd ****do you know what! mean do you it’s, it's **.
background or something like that, yeah. well I, I mean
background or something like, yeah.
HUNT: it's background but also to actually and to see the viability of this,
“hich **...
How viable it is, oh, right, it's very viable it is.
this business. ¢
Okay. So what I'd to know is how you move and why you moved
from steel to plastics?
Because I put when I was out of work, about five years ago, I
applied to, I put my name and CV to a company, in Birmingham,
right, and they had an enquiry from a recycled plastic
manufacture...
Hmm..hmm..
.. or transform plastic.
Which company in Birmingham was that?
En, AT, ATi, AT.
Are they an Employment Agency?
They... they was ****** employer.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay. Right. A company called Transform.
Transform contacted them, erm, and found me.
Hmm..hmm..
L They needed someone to get into the steel industry.
HUNT: And what was your role, at Transform.
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i was Steel Sales Manager, Steel Industry Steel Sales Manager.
So you were selling plastics to the steel industry.
Plastics to the steel industry.
Okay.
I mean you see how viable it is because in my first year, the
trading in plastics shows a profit. It shows a good profit then.
(umm...umm...(in background).
HUNT: Right. On the VAT returns, you've returned so far the turnover
Turnover hundred and fourteen thousand, yeah.
Hmm... So out, what was your profit out of that ***
Oh, about, forty, fifty percent, something...yeah
Hmm..okay. And how was it so high?
How was what?
a hundred and fourteen thousand pounds.
Your margin, your profit from a hundred and fourteen thousand.
So you're, you're telling me of that turnover a hundred and
fourteen you made forty percent profit.
Oh, yes, I would hope so.
Hmm...okay. And how did you achieve that, return? How, how
are you able to make so much money out of a turnover a
hundred and fourteen thousand pounds.
Because it’s new, brand new industry.
22,
Hmm..hmm..
And that’s it, no competition, virtually no competition.
Right.
And it's a, it’s a whole change you must sort of read up on the
industry and then you’ll perhaps understand a little more about it.
HUNT: Hmm...hmm...Se there's no competition in the U.K? For
recycled plastics?
Well Lankhorst who've I’ve worked for have still got a couple of
agents, but I mean I haven't there not that very good.
HUNT: Will you spell that name for me LAN..
7 LANK..
“HUNT: Hmm..hmm..
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HORST. I worked for them for a year or so.
HUNT: And where are they based?
: Over in Holland.
HUNT: Right. Okay. Whereabouts in Holland.
7} in the North, erm, what's the main town. There up in the North
anyway.
HUNT: You, you must remember where they are, you worked for them
for six..
. ™* yeah. Seat... Seatire or something like that I don’t what
that fs. It's a, it's a village it’s literally a village.
Hmm...and how often did you go there?
Once, twice.
Hmm..hmm...
And..
Okay. And how did you make contact with them?
The day after I'd finished with Transform Plastics. Coz
Transform Plastics went into receivership, went bust didn't they.
Right.
Contacted me via post.
Okay.
And ***** over there with European Agent.
Yeah, and how did you contact your people in Lankhorst. Who,
who did you report to at Lankhorst.
Gossedijkstra.
Okay. And how do you spell that?
GOSSE..
Hmm...hmm..
DI.
Hmm..hmm..
KSTRA.
And that’s the name of the chap you used to report to?
He’s the sales director, yeah.
Okay. And is he.. is that company still going?
Yeah.
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SOHAIL:
HUNT:
26
is Mr Gossedijkstra still there?
Gossedijkstra, yeah.
Yeah, okay.
{s this place this relevant.
Okay, but you'd let you'd ...
I don’t I mean I don’t.. Can I have, have five minutes.
Yeah, coz you can. You'd like...
.-1 don’t...
.. to suspend the interview..
yeah, yeah because erm, ...
... Okay then the time is now 17.36 and there’s 34 minutes
showing on the tape.
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HM CUSTOMS AND EXCISE
FULL TRANSCRIPT OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW
INTERVIEWING OFFICER PHILIP HUNT
INTERVIEWEE
DOB
OCCUPATION
ADDRESS
DATE OF INTERVIEW 13.1.2003
TIME OF INTERVIEW 17.51 HOURS
PLACE OF INTERVIEW STECHFORD POLICE STATION
NAME(S) OF OTHER PERSONS =ANNA HUDSON ~ OFFICER
PRESENT MR SOHAIL — SOLICITOR
HUNT: This interview is being tape recorded. It may be tendered in
evidence if your case is brought before a court. We are in an
interview room at Stechford Police Station. It is now erm 17.51
on Monday the 13th of January 2003. I am Philip Hunt, officer of
Customs and Excise, the other officer present is.
HUDSON: Anna Hudson.
HUNT: Will you please state your full name and date of
“AUNT “oon TK you Also present is your solicitor.
SOHAIL: Ghulam Sohail from Chalilinors, Lyon, Clark.
HUNT: Before the commencement of this interview I must remind you,
you are entitied to free and independent legal advice at any
stage. If you wish to have a consultation indicate that fo me and
we'll suspend the interview. You understand that.
Yes.
GRO
SIT NO. 262.
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HUNT: At the conclusion of the interview I'll give you a Notice explaining
what happens to the tapes, and how you can have access to
copies of them. I have to caution you now, that you do not have
to say anything but it may harm your defence if you do not
mention when questioned something which you later rely on in
court, anything you do say may be given in evidence. Do you
understand that.
Yes.
HUNT: Okay.
SOHAIL: The interview was err suspended at, at 17.36 erm, because my
client was unhappy about questions that he was being asked
about the backgraund to the plastic company being setting up,
err he, questioned the, the relevance of those questions, err if
you want to explain to him if you're going to pursue that
particular line of questioning again, the relevance of those, then
he'll consider his position, but he believe he’s exhausted that
particular avenue for now.
The reason I want to talk to you about.
Hmm.
.. the plastics industry..
Hmm.
.. is because I need to check you're bona fides..
Hmm.
.. within that industry.
Alright.
.. and it isn’t just to a cover..
Alright, okay.
.. story, and a cover company, as often happens..
Hmm.
.. when people launder proceeds of crime. Okay.
That's fine, yeah.
So that’s why I'm asking you about your previous employment
and the companies you've been associated with..
Hmm.
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.. 80 we can check that up to see if..
Fine.
.. itis true.
Okay.
HUNT: Do you understand that.
I think so yes, but..
Okay.
“GRO I __.. [can furnish you with a full curriculum vitae at a later date if
you want would like a copy.
HUNT: Well the, let's do it now, shall we.
Okay, fine.
3 HUNT: Yes.
SOHAIL: Okay.
HUNT: Alright, so you'd worked with Gus Dictstra.
“* Dictstra at “***, yeah.
Okay. And it’s a village in Northern Holland.
Yeah.
How would we contact him.
Erm, well I could furnish you with his phone number, I mean it
was always in my mobile phone, so { just pressed the relevant
button and that was it.
Okay.
But I work pretty independently err..
Okay.
"I wasn’t I say, I only went over there twice.
Sure.
One to see, look at the factory and one other time for a meeting.
Okay. What led you fo set up RPX.
Erm, it was at the advice of my accountant.
Meaning.
As opposed to, I’d been sole trading.
Yeah.
As err, in plastics.
Hmm hm.
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Erm, from the.
From which date to which date.
Sole trading, I sole traded up to the 30th of, 31st of October..
Which year.
.. because we bought, 2001.
Ab hah.
And that commenced, technically, because ail the time I was
working for, Lankalls..
Hmm hm.
.. which is about 18 months plus..
Hmm hm.
.. a few months after that I was a sole trader, they didn't employ
me..
Okay.
.. they wouldn't employ me, it was just a, so, so I had to fill ina.
And what were you doing.
.. tax returns.
And what were you doing ***"**.
Selling glass.
To whom.
To the steel industry mainly.
Okay. Okay, can you just jot down the narnes of the companies,
or, sorry, tell me the names of the companies in the steel
industry you sold to.
Corus.
And who would you deal with there.
Oh there would be a list of people, Corus is the biggest steel
company in the UK.
Sure.
Therefore there would be Corus Colour Code, Corus err
Automotive, Corus Colour Code, three different divisions..
HUNT: Yeah.
. I. Corus South Wales and Corus.
HUNT: Okay.
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lean",
Oh, **** all these..
Yeah, yeah.
.. and what, what was the level of turnover you had with Corus,
had much trade did you do with them.
Err, probably in the course of err time, 80, they're only err..
8.
.. about 80 thou.
80 K.
.. 80, you say 80 K, something like that.
Okay. And that's in an 18 month period.
Plus the 100, well no that was never with Corus. Yeah,
something like that yeah.
Okay. And which other steel companies did you deal with in the
UK.
Erm the other companies, that I dealt with would be, err let me
see steel companies, because I also deal, dealt with the
exporters and importers.
Hmm hm.
Err steel importers..
eke
fee
.. what, what names.
.. erm the main one erm is up on the East coast err outside Hull
and that’s AV Dawson. I fitted out a lot of core cradies in their
warehouse.
Okay. Anyone else.
I You see, what I’ve been doing for the last 12, 18 months.
Hmm hr.
Recycled plastic, as I said is innovative.
Yeah.
Okay. So, and capex, people like Corus, I mean I've got
approximately 1 and a half, 2, 3, 4 million pounds worth of
potential business.
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awe
HUNT:
HUNT:
HUNT:
Yeah.
I've got, sample rigs in different places..
Alright.
.. different works of Corus, different places, all over, I visited,
we've got samples, we've taken sample pieces..
Hmm.
.. into wagons, into there, there's, a whole list who've got sample
pieces of it, and they're all looking at this at the moment.
Okay.
To replace all the wood industry, which they’re going to do,
because Heaith and Safety are behind it in full. So the level of
business at the moment is totally irrelevant..
preeeaes
.. it’s all declared..
Hmm.
.. but it’s a very good, that’s why it's a big profitable business.
Okay, but you, you've haven't done that much trading yet..
No it’s been..
. and your..
.. fesearch and development..
. and your.,
te,
.. the amount of money you have generated, that you've told me,
you've got 3 to 4 hundred K of capital.
No I didn’t, I said asset.
Asset, okay, you've got 3 to 4 hundred..
peeee
.. K of, of assets..
Yeah.
.. well you told me the assets..
ie
. come to about probably 30, 50 K of that 3 to 4 thousand, so
there’s 350 thousand pound cash you'd say.
No, *** perhaps ****.
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HUNT:
HUNT:
SOHAIL:
HUNT:
HUNT:
HUNT:
POL00062573
You've told me Jeff the fitter, no further details, has 15 to 17 K of
yours.
Yes, plastics, yeah.
You've told me that the chap in Marseille has about 15 K.
There's loan accounts in the company as well that err that, that
have got to be erm sorted out..
Loan accounts.
.. *** pay off, the loan accounts.
Loans fo you as a director.
Yes, to me yes.
Okay, how, how much have you..
peewee’
.. borrowed from the account.
I couldn’t tell you..
until the end of the year.
What are they loan accounts for you personally or loan
accounts..
No.
.. to the business.
it's a loan account..
ifs directors loan accounts.
.. to the business, directors loan account.
Hmm.
Which I have to pay tax on at the end of the year, when it's
assessed.
Fine.
Sure.
*** so I don’t know the answer fo that *****
So there are loan accounts to you
Yeah.
.. you and fo your daughter.
And there's cars..
.. which daughter is that.
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My daught
Rachel.
Hmm.
Okay. Cos you've also got a daught iG RO
Yes that is right.
Okay, okay, does she have any loans from your company.
No.
Okay. What about!
joes he have any loans.
There’s nothing, no he doesn't.
Okay.
What's he got to do with anything.
Okay.
=t
i _I He's not, he’s not a son in law yet.
HUNT: Okay. Now, Mr Horton..
[GRO I Yeah Brendan Horton.
HUNT: .. Can you, can you explain what his role is to, why he’s involved
in your life.
: Purely, purely he started driving around from December.
HUNT: Okay.
~GRC Because in the December months when I was visiting people, if I
was going to entertain, go out to lunch, or anything, I’d have a
drink, so therefore that was the sole reason of keeping him,
taking him on in December.
And that's December 2002.
Yes.
Or 2001.
Just one month..
2002.
.. *** just over, a month ago.
Okay. He’s a, he’s a bank manager, why, why does he drive you
around.
GRO I You better ask him that, I can’t answer that.
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HUNT: Do you employ him.
No I don’t employ him, he’s not employed by me, no.
Okay. Why, why does, why, why does he drive you around.
Because he was on sick leave err stress leave and he was bored
being at home, and he said if I wanted someone to drive him
around over Christmas, he'd be happy to do it.
HUNT: Alright. But I he, okay he drives you around, where does he
drive you.
I To my clients.
HUNT: To your clients. Okay. What time does he turn up in the
morning, and what time does he go home of an evening.
Whatever time I ask him.
Really, okay. And how do you make your arrangements.
The day prior.
The day prior, okay. Erm.
Or on the mobile.
Okay. Does he get nothing from his relationship with you.
Does he get nothing from our.
Does he get anything from his relationship.
Well he must do, you'd have to ask him that.
Well no I, do you pay him.
Do I pay him, no, I don't pay him.
You don't give him any money.
No I don't give him any money at all.
Are you invoived in any business transactions with him.
None whatsoever, none whatsoever. Oh. He places bets for me
sometimes. Goes to the bookies if I’ve got, I’ve got some betting
slips which are in my bag, if you mean, I mean if that’s business.
HUNT: Well you tell me, well I, I'm, I'm intrigued there, there’s a bank
manager, who drives you around ****.
You better ask him "*****.
Well no I'm asking you..
cred
HUNT: wee
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But I can’t answer that question, can 1, you want it, I've just
asked you, answered the question as, as well as I possibly
could, than, rather than sit around he enjoyed doing that, also he
got a trip to France out of it.
Hmm.
.. which you made pretty uncomfortable for us, but there..
Hmm.
.. again we were, he enjoyed that, he’d not been there..
Hmm.
.. good experience.
Hmm. What for a bank manager, in, in what context would a trip
to France be useful for him.
You err, no point whatsoever for you asking me that question,
because I couldn't answer it, he enjoyed going, he wanted to go.
Hmm. Okay.
Straightforward that, so..
So.
.. simple as that.
He, he acts as your betting runner, does he.
No, I didn't say he acts as my betting runner, I said, he
sometimes takes a bet for me.
Okay.
When you asked about business, so that I’m disclosing all, in
case you said, well he did do business, he did a betting slip, and
collected this for you.
Okay, how regularly does he place bets for you.
How regularly. A few times a week..
A few times.
.. about four or five times.
Four to five times a week.
Hmm.
Do you have any err arrangement with him, with regard to
placing bets.
Yeah if I show err a win..
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Hmm hm.
.. Uli give him a percentage, 10 per cent sometimes or whatever.
But err he doesn't get very much.
Well why do, why do you give him 10 per cent.
Well for doing it, for, for going and doing that for me..
Hmm.
.. you know because, if he, if i'm busy and he goes and does it
for me.
Hmm.
Why, why do you give anything, anyone a tip, you know I tip
waiters because they were, I tip you know, I don't employ them..
Hmm, hmm.
.. but if they're good to me and..
Hmm.
.. hotel people and that's it.
Okay.
As simple as that.
So, okay right, you went to France.
Hmm hm.
Okay, why did you go to France.
Business.
Err.
To visit Solar. To meet with, francois err Christof Testa in Paris,
because we had a meeting with Solac Usimoor..
HUNT: ween
.. ™* SolacUsimoor.
HUNT: And this is a name of a company or a person.
Company.
Okay. And where are they based.
Montatere.
Montatere, and where, what part of France is that.
Err, it’s north of Paris.
Okay.
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But again you've got a record of all that, because I gave it to your
Customs people as we were going through.
Hmm hm. Okay, so you went there, erm where did you meet
Tester.
In the hotel.
in the hotel, okay. And the name of the hotel, please.
Millennium Opera.
Okay. And did you do business there.
in the hotel.
Well did you do business with Tester.
We discussed, we discussed, Tester is our supplier, and also he
is our fink man, our French is not, oh pretty good, but not brilliant
so he also comes to the meetings with us, when we're
discussing with the, what's going on, he’s our technical advisor in
France.
Alright okay, so, there was, the people there, there was you in
France.
Yeah.
There was Elsey.
Yeah.
There was Horton.
That's right.
There was Tester.
Yeah.
And there was a fifth person.,
No.
.. from Solac.
No, no, we went to Solac..
Oh.
.. they were at Montatere, there were three or four of them there,
Alright.
There were various ones, engineers and all sorts.
Okay.
Jacques Pierre
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HUNT: And were any..
1 ik
.. Were any orders placed or.
No we went there, they asked us to go there to do a logistics
study, to improve their problems.
And what are their problems.
Multi various.
Are Solac in the steel industry or the plastics industry.
They're the biggest in the whole of Europe.
Steel.
Yeah.
Okay. Okay, who's the main person, who’s in charge of the
Solac Group that you met.
Err, who did we meet. I've got his business. card, so I’m aware
there were two, there was Jack and Pierre.
Okay.
That’s all I can tell you, I’ve got their surnames, I’ve got their
business cards from my ****.
Okay.
They're virtually site managers, we didn't meet Mr Solac, which
there isn’t, but I mean, at this stage, they've just a, a job to do,
which is to.,
Okay.
.. improve, I've done exactly the same job at BMW, I’ve kitted out
the whole of BMW last year.
Okay. And how much did you make from that, do you know.
Err, BMW deal about 14, 14, 15, 15 thousand.
Okay, is that your profit or is that the actual proper..
That's the profit.
. deal.
i .. that's the profit.
HUNT: And what, what was the actual turnover on that. What was the
full.
28, 29 thousand.
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Okay. And did you supply them with the goods.
Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. So in effect your, your costs on that were 14, and
you made 74.
Sorry.
Your, you've told me that your margin on that was 14 K..
Yeah.
.. SO you actually supplied 14 K’s worth of time or goods.
That's right, yeah.
Yeah.
That's it.
Okay.
100 per cent profit virtuatly.
Okay. Now getting back to Mr Horton..
Yeah.
.. when, when did you meet him.
When did I first meet him, oh, must be about 12 years ago I
suppose something like that.
in what context.
He was my bank manager.
Okay. And what, as a sole trader or, what, what was your status
then, were you running a business.
I was, I'd got a corporate hospitality company.
Okay. Called.
VIP Sport. And then another one Elite Formations..
And where was that run from.
.. Coleshill.
Coleshill. And is that business still operating.
No.
Okay. Okay. And where were you living then.
Err, at that time I was living in Sutton Coldfield.
Okay.
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, I lived there most of my life. We
only moved out of Sutton Coldfield to Rugeley, that’s the only
other, and that was six years ago.
HUNT: Okay. And how did you know Mr Horton’s present status in
order to offer him driving or, or suggest that he drives for you.
How did I know his present status.
Hmm.
Because he drinks in the local, The Chase, that's his local pub,
and erm, I saw him in there.
Is that, is that a Rugeley pub.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay. Okay.
And we generally discussed over once or twice over the,
because we were friends, how you going, what you doing, at first
it started off like that..
Okay.
.. a few pints and, talk about, horses, because we've got a
mutual interest in.
Okay. Does Mr erm.
sete
.. Pace drink in The Chase.
No.
Alright. Do you meet.
I Not to my knowledge, never, ever met Mr Pace socially at all,
ever, at all, never.
Okay. Do you ever discuss, have you discussed your Euro
transactions with Mr Horton.
No. With Mr Horton.
Hmm.
I haven't discussed them with them, but err, as I talk about them
sitting in the back of the car..
HUNT: Hmm.
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.. 've got nothing to err, I've never, I've never had any erm, I did
ask him to find the number, the telephone number one day of
hypermarket..
Yeah.
.. he found the telephone number for me..
Okay.
. while I was in a job at a, see if you can get them, in the number
of the hypermarket.
How did you know about the hypermarket.
Because I'd been on holiday with err, not that particular branch,
but the one at err, up at err Begger’s Bush.
Hmm.
A few years back.
Okay. And why do you use the hypermarket.
Because they, well I've only used them this, today would have
been the second time, I’ve only used them once.
Alright. .
They would have been my, either them and Amex wouid have
been my, hopefully will be.
Hmm.
My err the main branch, because they pay the best rate.
Thanks. Okay. And erm previously we, we have obtained a
production order under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act on
your bank account.
Hmm.
On your HSBC account.
Hmm.
.. also from Thomas Cook.
Hm.
Erm, and clearly you, you used to use Thomas Cook a lot..
Yeah that..
. ™*"™* because.
I .. Virtually the whole time..
HUNT: .. because *****,
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.. the contract was continuous yes.
: That's right because.
The only, Thomas Cook yeah.
Alright, why did you.
I can tell you exactly who I used.
Why did you move.
Because erm in December, just before Christmas, they said they
could only take 30,000..
Hmm.
.. at any one fime..
Hmm.
.. because they were going to all their supplies, were going to be
handled and held by err, Travel Wise I think or, or err Travel Flex
or Flex Wise something like..
Hmm hm.
.. they're a, I think they're part of, they're just a, a distribution for..
Alright.
.. currency.
Okay.
So they were changing policy because they said they had not
got, they'd got a major security problem with the amounts of
money through the branches. So they wouldn't be able fo take
large amounts.
Alright. And then you, that, that prompted you to, to move ****.
Phone around, yeah obviously { had to find other buyers..
Yeah.
.. but they were very willing and keen other people.
Hmm.
But erm they, all the other people I had to give bank account
details, passport..
HUNT: Hmm.
.. everything...
Hmm hm.
.. the whole thing, they were rigorous in their err investigation..
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Hmm.
.. of who [ was and where I, err allowed them to speak to my erm
bankers.
Hmm.
Erm for any disclosures they need.
When you dealt with Thomas Cook..
Hmm.
.. did you ever indicate that these monies were coming from
gambling.
Gamble.
Hmm.
Never.
Or horse racing.
No, no, no, no.
No, okay. Have you ever, have you ever told anyone that you
own a horse.
Have I err ever told anyone..
Hmm.
.. lown a horse.
Well do you own a horse?
Err, indirectly.
Okay. And what's the name of the horse, and where is it.
And where is it.
It's with C Edgerton, near Lambourne.
C Edgerton in.
Err, near Wantage.
Wantage.
Hmm.
Okay. Okay and what share of that horse do you own.
At the moment, erm, I've paid for the fot.
Okay which is.
20,000.
HUNT: And where do.
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But it's to be sold on the syndicated.
When did you buy it.
That was bought on the 5th, well 'GROjought it on the, around
about the 2nd of January. No sorry, 2nd of December *****,
Of 2002.
Or was it November. Yeah 2002.
Okay, alright then, okay. And where did you buy it from.
She hasn't run or anything, she was bought from the erm, from
the Newmarket.
Okay.
Sales, from and the previous trainer of.
f ” Do you own any other horses at the moment..
Erm.
.. or have an interest in any other horses.
I've got the interest in a filly..
Hmm hm.
.. that was injured.
Alright, and where is she kept.
Well she’s down in Lambourne.
Which counties that, you'll have to excuse me.
Err, that’s in Berkshire.
Berks, okay. And what's her name.
She's called { :
Okay. And what percentage do you own of her.
Well at the moment, the whole lot.
And how much was she.
3,000.
Are you hoping to breed from her.
Yeah that was the..
Yeah.
. it, but she was injured so, that was the end of it, well not the
end of it, she'll go back on the market or we okay for breeding
fone
HUNT: Yeah, are there any other..
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shee
ett sorry when did you buy her.
Erm, she was bought early err Nov, November, December, 2,
2001.
2001, okay.
Yeah.
Any other horses.
No.
Okay. Do you own any horses in Ireland.
No.
Okay.
No.
Do you own any in France.
No.
Okay. Okay. Now, for you fo make money out of your euro
dealing.
Hmm hm.
You have to, be on top of what the exchange rates are I would
imagine.
Absolutely yeah.
How do you keep in contact with that.
Erm, Gary Elsey through his, keeps in contact with me every
morning...
HUNT: And.
.. telis me how it's opening, how it’s closing.
How does Gary know this.
He, off his computer.
So it’s off the internet.
I presume..
wee
..** yeah I don’t know.
Deo you have the internet at home.
No "#8
HUNT: You haven't got a computer at home.
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L GRO No we're having it installed next week, we've bought, my wife
a and I are computer illiterate “"""*.
Okay, who, who is Gary Elsey.
Gary Elsey he works for me, he’s employed by me.
Okay and where does he live.
I He lives, well you're at his house at the moment, right, you know
” where he lives.
1, [personally don’t.
Yeah.
.. know. Where, where, where does he live.
Your people were at his house..
And how do you know that..
era
..* did your wife..
i know.
.. tell you.
Yes.
Yes, Oh tight.
Yeah they were at his house.
Right, and.
So you'll know full details about him, cos presumably..
Yeah well could..
.. you know “*****
.. could you just tell me where, where it is.
It’s err near Althorpe it's a, a little village called Harieston.
is that down south or err Midlands or up North.
No Northamptonshire.
Northampton alright.
Hmm.
Yeah. Okay.
We have a web site as well, erm, don’t ask me what it is for..
Okay.
.. we've just gone on web site, the whole thing, you see we're,
we're.
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HUNT: What.
.. this year is our marketing year.
HUNT: Okay, what, what, does Elsie do for a living.
SOHAIL: Well I think he wanted to finish something I think earlier, he was
making.
HUNT:
SOHAIL: raaaen
Who was
HUNT: .. what, what,
SOHAIL: You were going to make a comment before you were, he wanted
to finish his sentence off I think, if you would let him.
Yeah, I was going to say, we, Gary is, he's a, he’s good on
computers...
Okay.
.. and he, he’s got a greater knowledge of plastic than I have.
Yeah.
So { bought him as research director, research and development
plus sales, and that’s all he’s done, so *****..
How, how much do you pay him.
.. fesearching, 30, 30,000, 30, 30,000 a year.
Okay.
And I own his car.
Okay.
He’s got erm a Mercedes.
Okay.
Anestate. These are ail paid for by the company, all bought
cash.
HUNT: Okay does Mr Elsie erm take part in your, well clearly he advises
you with a price of euros.
That's the only, that’s the only thing he does, keeps me informed
on the rates up and down.
Okay.
The only person who deals and has got authority to deal with
any other people is myself.
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HUNT: Okay.
.. and no one else, sometimes on an odd occasion, once I've
had fo ask somebody to deliver, make a delivery for me.
HUNT: Have you had a good rate of euros, when you buy them, you,
you say you buy them from your Post Office in Rugeley.
Hmm.
HUNT: Is there anyone else in the UK that can provide you with the, the
deal that he provides you.
I couldn't tell you how erm I haven't investigated.
Oh right, so, so what does Mr Elsie do then.
Sorry.
So, you, you've told me Mr Elsie advises you on the prices of
euros and, and such like.
Yeah.
So I'm just asking you, is there anyone else in the UK that can
provide you with the deal that ***..
Well he tells me..
.. that you're getting from the Post Office.
.. what the rates going on the day.
Okay.
Whether it's 65.6 per cent or 63, it moves all day long so.
Yeah, okay.
He advises me on the movement.
Yeah, he advises..
. you on the movement, okay.
Yeah.
So you've done no research fo try and buy euros anywhere else.
No, not necessary.
Erm, what.
. I'm quite happy with the deal I’ve got.
HUNT: Okay. But, right let’s get this right, today, you've, you've flogged
a whole load of euros..
Yeah.
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HUNT: .. well you've bought some and then you've flogged some, you
would have to First Choice.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, what would you do for tomorrow.
{ wouldn’t err to anything tomorrow, *****.
Okay, what would you have do if you had paid the money in
today.
What would I have done.
Hmm. Okay, assume that we haven't arrested you.
Where was I going.
Assume that we haven't arrested you.
I'd of gone on my merry way back down fo, and I was going into
Swindon Pressings.
Okay.
And dropping my wife off to see my daughters in f
that’s where we were going.
Yeah, and what.
And then into .
.. what would you do with regard to buying more euros.
Err, the last thing I said to Karl was give me a call and let me
know what he will have available for me on Friday.
HUNT: Okay. And how do you know, and, okay, and how will you, does
he know, does Mr, does Karl know that you were going to buy
those from him.
On Friday, yes..
Okay.
. I said Pf buy them on Friday, whatever you've got.
Okay. Now how did you know what the euro is doing, and what
the euro is going to be doing until Friday.
I won't know till Friday.
No. Okay, so you're putting all that money into euros.
Yeah on Friday, yeah.
And you don't really know what euros are going to do on Friday.
I shall know on Friday morning, won't I.
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HUNT:
GRO.
HUN
___GRO
HUNT:
HUNT:
HUNT:
HUNT:
HUNT:
_GRO__
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Sure, yes. That, that’s be, that’s when you've got to turn up with
a lot of money to buy them.
Yes but, yes and erm, Amex..
Hmm hm.
.. and other people say we will give you 4 per cent better than so
and so.
Oh right, so they will act, will actually guarantee..
They guarantee me a percentage.
.. you a percentage.
Yes that’s right for buying from them yeah, that's absolutely right,
eee
Okay, who at Amex do you deal with.
I haven't dealt with anybody yet..
Who were you, well.
. *** fll be dealing with..
.. clearly someone.
.. Nicola Smith, Nicola Smith..
And where is she.
.. I've spoke to an agent, she’s in Cherry Street in err
Birmingham. There’s been no transactions with her so far.
But she guaranteed you 4 per cent.
Her boss guaranteed me 4 per cent, Jason somebody, Jason
Pinkworth I think his name was, he spoke to me. So that’s what
they would guarantee me, a 4 per cent.
On any, err whatever price you bought at they would pay you 4
per cent.
No, no, no, on the price of the going rate.
Hmm.
At the buying in rate.
Yeah ****.
So there's a buying in rate..
Yeah of course there's..
.. there’s a selling out ****..
.. a selling and a buying rate, okay.
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. ™* okay, So per say..
Hmm hm.
Amex say to people..
Hmm hm.
.. the general public, we will buy at 1.67..
Hmm hm.
.. we will sell to you at 1.46..
Hmm hm.
.. you'll get 1.46 to the pound..
Hmm hm.
.. and we will buy back off you at 1.61 to the pound.
Okay.
Okay, that’s that, that's how they make their money..
So that's..
.. say Amex, yeah *"**.
So Amex will say to me..
Hmm hm.
.. the buying in rate today, the general buying in rate today is
1.61.
Hmm hm.
We will give you therefore 4 per cent less the 1.61.
Okay.
For selling them in bulk..
Oh right.
.. because it’s bulk.
.. 4 per cent less than 1.61..
Yes tee",
cored
.. $0 I get a better rate..
Yeah, okay.
.. COS It, obviously the less I’ve got to give them to the pound..
Hmm, yeah.
.. the more { get.
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Yeah, indeed, but what I'm saying is, is how do you know that
the Post Office is going to be able to sell you at a, err, the on
Friday..
Because I have..
.. at a price will enable you to have..
.. mental guide..
«. a price.
.. ““"* oh look, I mean sometimes I don’t make as, as much as
another time.
Hmm.
I have to, make only one per cent.
Well I know but you, you appear fo have a magic formula here,
there, there are, there are ****.
Weil there’s nothing wrong with it, is there, having a magic
formula, I just spotted a niche and that's it.
Oh right, err so what was, the niche is what.
Is buying, where I can buy, where I can sell, that’s the..
Hmm.
.. that’s, that's what selling and buying’s all’s about..
Hmm.
.. If you buy right, you can always sell.
Hmm.
That was a philosophy towards me..
Yeah.
.. and the steel industry, many years ago.
Indeed, but what Amex had actually telling you is, is that, say like
today they're buying at 1.61.
They won't tell me what they’re going to give me on Friday.
No, but say they're buying at 1.61, they will give you 4 per cent
discount on that 1.61.
That's right.
Okay. So what they're, they're not actually guaranteeing you a
profit on your money from, from the euros you've bought at..
No I have to assume..
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.. the Post Office.
.. that I'm going to be buying alright off the Post Office.
Yeah, and how do you make that assumption.
How do I make it..
Hmm.
.. by seeing how the weekly movements goes.
And where do you get that information from.
From Gary Elsie.
Okay. Thank you. So Gary, on the internet, how often does
Gary phone you up telling you what the movement of euros are.
Well this moming I asked him to do it at 9 o’clock and at 10, and
err 8 o'clock, 9 o'clock, this morning, because I've got to make a
note.
Okay.
Because if, if had been..
Okay..
.. going wrong.
Had you spoken to Gary yesterday about euros *****_
No.
Okay, or on what day..
Saturday..
.. on Saturday.
.. Saturday, no, no..
No on Friday.
. ™*** on Saturday or Sunday, Friday morning, no because we
were coming from France on Friday.
No.
So we were altogether on Friday, we arrived..
Okay, so you really..
.. back from France on Friday.
.. had no idea what euros were doing and yet you went this
morning to buy a..
I Yeah.
.. vast amount of euros from the Post Office.
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Hmm hm.
Okay, and had someone at First Choice guaranteed you a price.
I knew I could get 4 per cent discount of Amex. So I tried..
Well no, you didn’t go to Amex.
.. First Choice first.
You went to First Choice.
Nol.
You were going to First..
Ah.
.. Choice.
I did, but I know what I could get from Amex..
Okay.
.. ™*“* because there’s a formula with therm.
Hmm hm.
So I went to Amex, err to First Choice, phoned them this
morning, they said they'd give me 1.5041, I said no that’s not
good enough.
HUNT: Hmm hm.
So Kelly phoned me back and she said I want, I, I'll sell them to
you at 1.53 and she came back and she said..
Hmm.
.. I've had a word with my bosses and they'll buy it off you at 1
point 5, no 1.525, sorry 1.53 they offered me at.
Hmm.
And 1.525 they're prepared to give, she came back at.
Kelly, that’s at First Choice.
Kelly, she’s the manager, yeah.
At First Choice.
Yeah.
Okay, so that's why you were going to sell to First Choice was it.
That's right, because that was the best market this morning, and
it was very convenient for going down to Oxford as welll, didn't
want to come into the centre of Birmingham.
HUNT: Why.
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We were going to jump on the motorway and then go down to..
Hmm.
.. Oxford.
Okay.
To my daughter's) GRO
Now, you've given me an indication there, Amex sell at say 1.46.
They sell to the general public..
Yeah.
.. don't they..
pore
.. it's probably even less than that at the moment, isn’t it, I don’t.
Okay, what rate do, well err, it's obvious, you're getting 1 point,
you've got 1.62 this moming.
Hmm.
Okay, how did you get that rate.
How did I get that rate.
Hmm.
That’s the rate he gave me.
No its not, if I went into the Post Office I'd get 1.44.
Yeah.
1.45.
Well you didn’t buy 580,000 though would you.
Who, who do you deal with at the Post Office.
Err, I said Karl pays.
Hmm.
Margaret and Jane.
Okay.
eee
Whereas here, dealing with Amex and First Choice you actually
have to speak to managers and people don't you.
Yeah.
Okay, who's, who’s, who's Karl's manager, who do you speak
to..
Karl is the manager.
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HUNT: .. and do the big deals.
He is the manager. Karl is the manager at the Post Office.
\s it a sub Post Office or a Post Office.
Oh I don’t know err, err they're leased aren't they, now, people
have their own, aren't they, it's the Post Office Limited anyway
that I buy from.
Him.
i mean I don’t buy from Rugeley Post Office..
Hmm.
.. my cheques are to the Post Office Limited.
Hmm. Okay.
And he has to get his money from the Post Office..
Hmm.
.. Limited in London..
HUNT: And, and..
( .. he’s let me down on sometimes..
.. and, and they, and.
.. and he’s, ah, he’s said that he could do me 1.63 and then I've
gone in, and it's been 1.62 it’s gone *"**.
HUNT: And you've told me that they wont, you can’t buy it all in one go,
he has to get it in dribs and drabs *"***.
I didn’t say in dribs and drabs, I said there was an amount that
he could order each day.
HUNT: Hmm.
E But I don't know what that amount is, because I don’t have all his
euros off him.
HUNT: Okay, why do you think they have a amount..
I haven't got a clue.
.. what explanation has he given you.
He hasn't given me an explanation.
Okay. Have you asked for an explanation.
No.
Okay. So, okay, so you haven't asked for an explanation, but
why.
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The level you see I'm dealing at at the moment, when you said
before would you have a million, you know probably, err this
moment maybe not.
Well you had a third of a million this morning, didn’t you.
Hmm. 500 and no, 580,000 ******
Of euro sterling.
Hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Okay.
That's.
Hmm.
.. but that's a week’s worth.
Hmm.
i _I Because that's the whole of last weeks.
HUNT: Yeah. Okay do you want to ask anything
No. lft could just go back M
Hmm.
Plastics.
Hmm. Recycled plastics yeah.
When, when did you start that company up.
On the 1st of November 2002.
Alright.
Limited company yeah.
Okay. So at the moment you said your first year was for
research and development, for that.
No I didn’t say ail, I said mostly..
Alright.
i .. for research..
HUDSON: Okay.
° .. and development, you, you see the turnover is small, we're
hoping for a turnover now, now we're all geared up, we hadn't
even got all our products in line, now, beginning of the year, we'd
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POL00062573
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only got one product, which we'd called cradles, now we've got
five, and a bigger market, we've put erm, we've put the..
.. Sideboards on, on hockey pitches, we're doing sports grounds
now, the plastic surrounds instead of wood for the all weather, so
we've done there, the horse racing connection is because I've
erm.
HUNT: How, how, how much money have..
HUNT: .. you made from the plastic surrounds of hockey pitches.
Nothing, absolutely nothing.
HUNT: Okay, alright, sorry.
HUDSON: Okay.
GRO We've, we've installed some free of charge, I've installed
probably last year, I spent in research and development last
year, I must have, I don’t know, well my accountants will tell me,
well it's cost an absolute arm and a leg and a fortune.
HUDSON: So what you're saying is the first year you haven't made a lot of
money oi
Absolutely that’s the whole point, because..
Alright.
.. it was mainly a research and development.
Okay. And your assets at the moment are mainly the plastic..
What we've got.. the small amount we've got..
.. on hand.
.. the cars, erm I'd got a fair amount of debt before that, so I've
paid that off, so err, as I say, loan account err what else, err it's
all in there, it will all be in the accounts, I mean.
Yeah.
i They'll have to answer the question at the end of the day when
they tot up all the figures, I don’t keep any, I, all the, all the
business is done, accounts business, by my desk, and I said, I’m
very happy for you to go and sit with them to answer all those
questions.
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And have you disposed of any of your assets.
Disposed of them.
in the past year, so have you sold anything...
No, no, no, no.
.. to, to, to gain cash..
No, no.
.. nothing at all.
No.
Okay.
I've only accumulated.
You see I'm still a little bit confused now..
Hmm.
.. in that if your company wasn’t doing a lot of trade..
Hmm.
.. and you haven't disposed of any assets..
Hmm.
.. or anything, your assets are all either in plastics or cars..
Hmm.
.. or whatever.
Hmm.
Yet you've managed fo get your hands on rather a lot of money
fo change from euros into sterling.
Hrm.
So I still can’t figure out in my mind..
~=* have to, well, well if you..
.. where, where it has come from.
.. if you look at the accounts, when the accounts are finalised
you'll find where it's all come from, and where it's all gone, aren't
you. And the accounts will be finalised..
HUDSON: But in order to..
HUDSON: .. in order to make money you need to sell something or move
something ****"**
I've sold euros.
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HUDSON:
HUDSON:
{
HUDSON:
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HUDSON:
GRO
HUDSON:
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You've sold, but in the end, to start off with where did the money
come from to get those euros.
Err, I hadn't got it.
So.
I gave a cheque, right, I write out a cheque for 50,000 pounds,
give it to the man, alright.
Alright.
I take the euros off him and that money goes back into my, it’s,
it’s like a back to back, it's a back to back err if you buy a house,
and you're selling your old house, you haven't got the money for
the first house, the second house, have you..
No.
.. $0 what do you do, you back to back it, you do it through a
solicitor, you say, when the money comes in from my old house,
that pays for the new house.
So you've had a, say a cheque guarantee card it would say.
Well I haven't got a cheque guarantee..
Alright.
.. nobody has a cheque guarantee card for that amount.
So you, so you wrote a cheque for..
That, that’s ail taken on trust.
.. that amount, that you don’t have, got the euros for it, changed
the money back, and made a bit of money on it, so you have
more than that.
Yes that's right, that’s how..
Okay.
.. it accumulate, that’s how it built up there.
And then what's you've kept doing.
That's it, keeps that and goes back into the company, all goes
back into the company.
So somewhere along the line, it doesn’t have somebody saying
you haven't paid me this money, because..
Why.
.. you didn’t have it to start off with.
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No, why. The only, the only, I mean, if I don’t pay him the money
that you, you will ruin my business if I don’t pay that money in
tomorrow, that will, that you will destroy my business. Thatis a
fact.
HUDSON: Oh, okay. If we go back to your, assets so you've got 15 to
20,000 pounds of assets, which is plastic.
_ No I didn’t say that, no, that was stock.
HUDSON: Stock sorry.
J Hmm.
Somewhere in Bilston.
Yeah at the, at the yard of err Jeff's, the fitter, my fitter..
Alright.
.. bloke.
So that is owned by your company.
What the stock yeah.
The stock.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
And then what are you going to do.
That came over from France, he makes frames and it goes into,
I’ve got pictorial stuff on all the things, if you'd like to have a look
and..
HUDSON: Alright so he’s..
.. get yourself okay with it.
HUDSON: .. he’s got the plastic there, he is then going to do something with
it for you.
No he’s going to just..
No.
.. make a steel frameworks, and they're what we call cartridges,
and then we drop the plastics into those cartridges and then
they're delivered into the customer, as..
Alright.
.. a complete unit and then he can store his steel plate.
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HUDSON: Okay. But you don’t have an address for this storage site.
! Well I don’t know the address off hand, no, it’s, I know where it
is, I mean that's where I go.
HUDSON: lalla
SOHAIL: Err, I think he said he would give you address..
seek
if you *******
Well it's in, it's err, it’s in all my paperwork, I mean I've got all the
addresses in the paperwork, I don’t remember anything, if you
ask me a phone number or anything, I don’t know the phone
number..
Okay, and the person that's.
.. it takes me all my time.
.. that has the stuff there is Jeff..
Yeah.
. as far you know.
Jeff, yeah.
Do you know his surname at ail.
I just call him Jeff the fitter.
So you've just left 15 grand of plastic with Jeff the fitter.
I''m a trusting person. He wouidn’t know what to do with if, you
can’t do much with 15 err thousand quids worth of non
biogradeable plastic, you can’t throw it away, it won't walk, it's
very heavy, you can't set fire to it, and you can’t get rid of it with
acid, that’s why it's non biogradeable. It can’t be pinched,
there's nothing to do with it, it's a specific app, application.
HUNT: You explained to my colleague about the, the fact that you are
actually buying euros without having the capital to pay for it, you
draw..
i did..
."* by cheque.
.. I was err, I was in the first place..
Yeah.
.. at that time.
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Okay.
But there’s been an accumilation,
«*** so therefore there was a lot of trust between you and the
Post Master.
Well err, one would think so wouldn't one.
Yeah.
Err, I think, I think he’d..
benee
.. contacted my bank and said, you know, if this man gave me a
cheque for this err would, would you be happy that it err **.
How, how did he contact the bank, the bank wouldn't talk to him.
I didn't, I didn’t say he did, I said maybe he did *****.
Weil the bank wouldn't talk to him.
Wouldn't they.
No.
Oh why.
But you know that, err *** 'm sure Brendan’s probably told you,
bank's don’t pass information about their customers do they.
i GRO If tell banks to, if you, err I say to then.
HUNT: Did you tell your bank to, will we find a note that you fold the
bank to speak to Mr Pace.
No probably not.
Okay.
But I said to Mr.
How, why did he trust you to cash..
I t don't know...
: .. a cheque.
.. well you will have to ask Mr Pace that question won't you, I
can’t answer that.
HUNT: Well you must have formed a relationship with him fo trust err,
for you fo, him to trust you.
Because, it had happened so many times, so it was built on, not
letting down and the amounts to start with were small and it
grew.
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What, what size were they when you starting.
Oh probably a few hundred, few thousand, then up to 5,000, and
then it's just grown and grown and grown and grown..
Okay.
The cheque you used to buy the euros this morning..
Yeah.
.. will that be honoured, is there enough money in your HSBC
account.
Err, at the moment there is yes, if were put it, err paid in the
bank, there is at the moment..
Hmm.
.. 368,000, 366,300 in my account as we speak, yeah.
Alright.
But as with most companies when all my cheques come in..
Yeah.
«and all my..
Well.
.. err everything done.
You've, you've got virtually no outgoings from your company at
the moment, have you.
Wages, that’s all.
And how many..
And stock.
.. people de you employ.
: Err, just Gary.
“HUNT: Gary.
i t Everything else, everyone else is on, if I need a fitter or I need
erm fitters to go and fit anything then they're paid on a, a
contract basis.
HUNT: Very briefly erm do you understand what money laundering is.
fl Do I understand.
Hmm hm.
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Money laundering, yes **** has told me that err, it is the
distribution of money from crime.
Hmm hm. Why do you..
And that, that was a question.
.. why, why do you think every time you've turned up at a bureau,
people ask you to fill in lots of forms explaining the source of the
funds.
Because they want to make sure and ascertain that they’re quite
happy.
And by happy what do you mean.
That, what you said, that it isn’t the source of, of crime.
Proceed of crime.
Proceed, proceeds of crime.
Yeah.
And mine, as you can quite clearly see is not the proceeds of
crime.
Hmm, hmm.
You can quite clearly see that.
Why, why can I draw that conclusion.
Because you see where I buy it from..
Hmm.
.. at source, alright, you know exactly where I buy it from..
Hmm.
.. you see where I sell it to.
indeed erm.
So how could it..
Why.
.. how could it, how could it be the proceeds of crime.
Because well erm..
Fm buying from..
. the, the, the rate..
.. the Post Office Limited.
. the rate you're buying at is not atfainable by anyone else.
But that is the Post Office Limited if..
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No.
.. they want to sell cheaply that’s..
No it’s not.
.. that’s their problem.
it’s not.
Isn't it, oh right.
No it’s not.
Okay, fair.
No it's not. The Post Office would sell it to me..
Hmm.
. even if I went to them with 300,000 pounds.
But it all comes from.
It would sell to me at 1.45..
Have you got that in document form.. from the Post Office.
Yeah.
Okay, so how of you got such a good deal from the Post Office.
I don’t think that I have got an exceptionally good deal, why don’t
you go into that Post Office and ask the best rate you can buy at,
and you will get better than 1.46, far better from the Post Office
at the moment, I assure you.
No you won't.
L I think you will.
BUZZER SOUNDS.
HUNT: We spoke to them this morning.
I Oh well, how much did you ask to buy from th m.
HUNT: We spoke fo them this morning; GRO a
Okay. a
HUNT: That, that is indicating that it's coming towards the end of the
tape..
Alright.
HUNT: .. err the time is now 18.34, and there’s 43 minutes showing
elapsed.
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Record of Tape
Recorded Interview
Person Interviewed
Place of Interview
Stafford Police Station
POL00062573
Exhibit No:
Number of pages:
Signature of interviewing
officer producing exhibit
Date of Interview 1 April 2003
Time commenced 11:24 hours Time concluded 12:07 hours
Duration of interview 46 minutes Tape referenceno —21/CG/995/03/01
Interviewing Officer(s} Mr Manish Patel (MP) Mr Colin Price (CP)
Other persons present
Mr Ghulam Sohail (GS)
Tape
counter
times
Person
speaking
Text
00:10
esos
MP
cP
MP
Okay this interview is being tape recorded, my name is Manish Patel and
my colleague is
Colin Price
We're both Officers of Post Office Ltd which is a part of the Royal Mail
dd tof tigat
ssible criminal offences, also present
d his Solicitor Mr Sohail. The date
today is the 1* of April 2003 and the time is now 14:24 hours. This
interview is being conducted at Stafford Police station in one of the
GRO ii m going to be asking you some
questions about I the theft of money through transactions, Bureau de
interview rooms:
Change transactions at Rugeley Post Office okay, at the end of the
interview I will give you a notice which will explain to you what will
happen to these tapes and how you can gain access fo them okay.
itis a criminal matter that we are investigating and therefore I have to
caution you, which fs You do not have to say anything but it may harm
your defence if you do not mention when questioned something you later
relay on in Court, anything you do say may be given in evidence, do you
understand that
Version 3.0 11702
POLO00629/3
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape
counter
times
Person
speaking
Text
01:45
02:44
CS015A
Yes
And your occupation
Company Director
And your home address please
Okay thank you, just so that i'm satisfied that you fully understand the
caution, I will explain what the caution means. There is effectively 3
elements to it, the 1 part says you do not have to say anything, that’s
exactly what it means, you do not have to answer my questions today
okay.
The 2™ part is, but it may harm your defence if you do not mention when
questioned something which you later relay on in Court. Effectively that
part of it means is that if this matter were to proceed to Court and at
Court you were to give the as part of your defence a version of events
which differed to today’s or the Court could infer that you could have
reasonably answered that question today they may think that it’s not the
whole truth at the time okay.
And the 3 part says that anything you so say may be given in evidence
and that means exactly as it is, it's recorded here today and it can be
used in a Court of law as evidence okay, do you fully understand that
Yes
Okay
Okay Mr Patel before you ask Mr}
1 a
basic legal rights and entitlements, I've had pre interview disclosure with
you this morning which in essence concentrated around two witness
Version 3.0 11/02...
(a
POL00062573
Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
statements of I
Banking statement in essence from Thomas Cook and you also allowed
me to have sight of erm, generally made it known to me that there was
schedules in existence in this case that confirmed the amount that its
and the alleged value of money stolen by Mri GRO as well. Now
before we came into the interview I handed to you a two page document
which you've copied, I've retained the original. For the purposes of this
interview if t can ask Mr{-
“to confirm that the document which
! have given to you which is typed by enlarge and also has a few
amendments and a couple of additions on is Mi
signed by him and forms his instructions
Yes itis
if you could confirm that
itis
Now it's a matter for you whether you want me to read this statement out
i was proposing to read that myself
I'm happy for you to do that but can I go onto say one last thing after
you've done that in that case is that after this statement has obviously
been read out Mri 5 position is this, is that he doesn’t
propose to answer any further questions that you put to him although
that he respects and understands that you still will put questions to him
in any event to discharge your investigative duty in relation to the
allegation being made by the Post Office Ltd against Mr!
one other, so I hope that fairly puts forward his position. If anything new
obviously surfaces in this interview which I haven't been made aware of
already then I'll ask for you to kindly suspend the interview at that stage
but that's Mri
04:49 MP. Thank you for that, let me just resume back to were we were, the next
“ls position at this current moment.
CSO15A Version 3.0 11/02
GF
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Record of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape
counter
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Person
speaking
Text
05:42
06:24
CSO15A
MP
Gs
MP
GS
MP
MP
point was the legal representation, can I remind you that you are entitled
to free and independent legal advice during the course of this interview
or prior fo this interview either by telephone or in person and obviously
arrived here with your solicitor in attendance, can I say that at any time
during the course of the interview if you feel as though you want to have
a private consultation with your solicitor please make me aware of that
and we can suspend the interview whilst that takes place okay. As your
solicitor has pointed out there is a statement prior to obviously today
because it's typed with amendments which I will read out in full at the
moment, I will be putting questions to you regardless of whether you
choose to answer those questions on the advice of your solicitor or not
okay.
Right, this is the prepared statement which I’ve been handed a few
minutes ago by your solicitor, as I say itis a typed statement which was
obviously prepared prior to today, in fact there is a date on page two
which has got 24" February 2003 crossed out and then the 1* April has
been written on top
If I can explain that date, I think we were here last or it was in fact
Cannock on that particular date, this statement was prepared on the
basis of tructions for an interview which was to take
place on that date
indeed
The evidential position as far as we are concerned hasn't changed, this
simply being re dated today
Okay thank you for that
Right it starts with the top, at the very top it’s Post Office Ltd brackets
POL stroke Police versus;
I wish to make the
following significant statement in relation to any interviews to be
embarked upon today where it will be alleged that I together with others
have stolen monies belonging to Post Office Ltd by the manipulation of
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Foreign exchange rates. I reserve the right subsequently to relay on any
issue, matter or document not referred to in this statement which is
made without prejudice stroke any restriction as to how my defence
maybe presented if this allegation is prosecuted before a criminal Court.
Point 1, I accept that I was involved in the purchase of Euros from
Rugeley Post Office where I dealt with Mr Cari Page for approximately
one year. I can be specific as to times, dates and amounts if I am
allowed to refer to my business records which are being kept in relation
fo each and every transaction carried out between Rugeley Post Office
and me. All the transactions were carried, sorry.
Point number 2, all the transactions were carried out as far as I am
concerned on a proper commercial footing and are all to be accounted
for in the trading accounts off. of which I am the Managing
Director.
Point 3, until the date of my arrest on 13" January 2003, i was not aware
that Mr Page did not have authority stroke permission to sell Euros to me
at the rate which he did, it was always my belief that he operated on a
margin basis bearing in mind the volume of trade that was carried out
between us.
Point 4, I attended Rugeley Post office prior to the official opening time
on occasion to purchase Euros at this time for Security reasons due to
the quantities of monies involved.
Point 5, I accept that I have paid for and collected Euros from Mr Page
and his staff in the latter scenario in Mr Page’s absence the purchases
have been at the rate that were agreed shortly before purchase with Mr
Page direct.
Point 6, I was not aware until proceedings were bought against me to
freeze my assets in the High Court after my original arrest of the terms
of any relationship between Mr Page and Post Office Ltd.
Point 7, some of the Euro's that I have purchased were used in the
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Business dealings off _
purchasing Euros.
I this was my original reason for
Point 8,
Gs That should be 8a in fact
MP Sorry 8a, in my interview with officers from Customs & Excise at
Stechford Police Station on 13" January 2003, I gave detailed responses
to questions about my Business commitments past and present, I rely
upon those answers in the event that similar questions are put to me
today.
8b, forgive me but I can’t read all of the writing
GS Yeah not a problem, I’m happy to help
MP I accept that Sidney Morris on one occasion ani
two occasions in my absence on
GS On business or leave
MP On Business of leave have collected from Rugeley Post Office and
GS Delivered
MP Delivered Euros on my behaif to
Gs Thomas Cook
MP Thomas Cook, what's the next bit
GS Pursuant to arrangements made by me, acting thereby as couriers on
behalf of I (
MP Okay thank you. Over the page and we go onto point 9, I deny any
suggestion of any criminal wrongdoing as is being alleged against me
either as a result of my own conduct or jointly with any other.
Point 10, I wish to place on record my unhappiness about the way I was
deait with at this Police station on 13”
Gs In fact that should say Cannock Police station
MP At Cannock Police Station (Statement amended), okay at Cannock
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Police station on 13” January 2003, I was conveyed to this station after
being released by Stechford Police at 2104 hours, a Police surgeon who
examined Stechford made it clear to officers from this station that
immediately upon my arrival here I should be seen by a Police surgeon
who would clarify whether I was fit to be detained and further
interviewed. I had suffered that day from High Blood pressure and chest
pains, a surgeon did not see me by 2240 hours having arrived at this
station at 2130 hours, by this time my medical condition deteriorated
which lead me to being transported to hospital in an ambulance after I
collapsed and that’s signed by yourself Mri GRO Vis that correct
That's correct
41:22 Okay, well thank you for that prepared statement, there are one or two
things on that statement that I want fo first deal with and then I'll ask you
some general questions about some of the transactions. One of the,
right in point number 1 it says that I accept I was involved in the
purchase of Euros from Rugeley Post Office where I dealt with Carl
Page for approximately one year, are you quite sure it’s just one year
and not more so, M
No comment
Because Mr Page seems to think it’s been about 3 or 4 years and!
believe that in your interview with Customs & Excise you suggested that
it was more than one year
No comment
MP Okay, right
Gs Mr Page's suggestion was that commercial dealings for a period of 3 to
4 years or simply dealings with Mr {™ Hor 3 to 4 years
MP It depends how you define commercial, if were talking about the large
amounts that he’s been purchasing
GS yes
MP Then yes, 3 to 4 years
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GS 3 to 4 years, but this investigation Is principally dealing with 2002 in
terms of suggested wrong doing to early January 2003
MP Principally yes although we do have some records which go back to
2001 as I explained in part of the disclosure
Gs Yeah
MP And at this moment in time those haven't been fully investigated, they
may well be, may not be.
43:02 MP Right the next point, I just want to clarify...............don't seem to erm ,
right sorry again in point number 1, it says I can be specific as to times,
dates and amounts if I am allowed to refer to my business records which
are being kept in relation to each and every transaction carried between
Rugeley Post Office and me, can I ask are you suggesting that someone
has got hold of all of those records or do you have them
No comment
Do Customs have them
No comment
Do you have them
x No comment
MP Or does your accountant have them
No comment
MP Okay, lets deal with the transactions with erm, some of the general
questions regarding how the transactions first started, when did you first
start dealing with Mr Page at Rugeley Post Office
No comment
I mean how did you, I know fro the prepared statement that you say
initially that the Euros were purchased for your Business purposes and
then from the transcripts I've read from Customs it suggests that you
found that you could sell these Euros back at a profit. When did that,
when did that idea first spring to mind.
‘GRO! No comment
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MP Would it have been last year, the year before
MP Okay, when did you make the approach to Mi
Euros
He's Mri .
Sorry Mr Page, forgive me
No comment
What sort of conversation took place when you spoke to Mr Page
regarding giving you better rates, what did you say to him
No comment
There must have been a conversation to that extent
No comment
MP The size of the transactions that you've been doing, obviously
dramatically increased in the last few months, when you first started this
enterprise, what sort of volumes were involved
No comment
MP And what about the funds, where did the funds originally come from to
buy the Euros in the first place
No comment
Were there ever funds fo fund this enterprise
No comment
Or was it a loan from the Post Office unofficially through Mr Ye
Page sorry
No comment
16:18 Did you ask, did you ask Mr Page if you could pay for this transactions
via a cheque
No comment
Or did he suggest it
No comment
if you weren't aware that Mr Page didn't have the authority to vary the
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transactions why did you only ever go to Rugeley Post Office
No comment
Why did you not go to any other branch of the Post Office
No comment
MP And indeed when) Ss GRO
~~“lyour daughter went on your
behalf on two occasions to purchase Euros, she lives i
‘Woesn't
she
No comment
MP Why did she go from Oxford to Stafford to purchase Euros on your
behalf
No Comment
Pd refer you to paragraph 8b on that
MP Weil that says in relation to leave an absence, I’m asking about the
distance involved, it's totally a different question
GS { see your point but I don’t agree yeah
MP Well that is a valid point, were talking about a hundred odd miles, if you
can get rates at any Post Office why send your daughter to Rugeley
Post Office
No comment
MP Apart from the times that your daughter and Mr Morris have been in to
collect the Euros on your behalf, do you always attend Rugeley Post
Office to collect them.
iGRO} No comment
Does Mr Page ever bring them to you
No comment
Does anyone else ever bring thern to you
No comment
Have you always paid for the Euros via a cheque
No comment
The cheques that you use to pay for these Euros, do you write them out
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No comment
You obviously sign them though
No comment
Are they written out at the time of the transaction
No comment
And when do you date them
No comment
Because there are instances and [ll show you very shortly where
transactions have been conducted on a date and the cheque is dated 2,
3, 4 days later
No comment
Now when that scenario arises, does Mr Page not ask you why you've
post dated the cheque
. No comment
MP Why would you post date the cheque
No comment
MP Okay, would it be to do with something about delaying the submission of
the cheque
No comment
Have you ever asked Mr Page to delay the processing of your cheques
No comment
Are you aware that Mr Page has delayed the processing of your
cheques
No comment
From your bank statements, you probably are aware of that aren't you
No comment
Because you'll see and Il! show you some of your bank statements very
shortly, that when you write out a cheque for lets say today the 1" of
April, it doesn’t get processed until about the 17” of April
No comment
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MP So you obviously would be aware that they are being delayed for
process
No comment
Have you asked Mr Page to delay them on your behalf
No comment
MP Why would you do that
tf No comment
MP Okay, what about the cheques themselves, why do you write out more
than one cheque when doing a large transaction
No comment
I mean for instance, on the day of your arrest, you bought £360,000
pounds worth of Euros and you wrote out four cheques, why
No comment
MP Why didn't you write out one cheque for £360,000 and odd whatever it
was
No comment
Why three at 100,000 and one at 60 odd thousand
No comment
Okay, bounced cheques then, lets talk about bounced cheques, how
many times in the last year then have you had problems with your
cheques bouncing
No comment
Would that be bouncing because you don't have funds, sufficient funds
in your account to meet the cheques
No comment
Or is it as a result of you personally putting a stop on the cheques
No comment
Okay, have you ever personally stopped a cheque
No comment
MP Over the last year in relation to these transactions at Rugeley Post
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Office
FGRO! No comment
21:59 MP The cheque for £278,000, let me show you the one I'm talking about, I
have here a number of cheques, let me first of all show you the, right
these cheques these are the four cheques used for the transaction on
the 13" of January 2003 they are cheque numbers 100159, 160, 164
and 162, three of them the first three being made out for £100,000
exactly and the last cheque162 being made out for £60,493.83 and all
have your signature, are these the four cheques that you used and the
item number for these which were seized by the police is NUW/5, are
these the four cheques you used for the transaction
No comment
On the 13" January 2003
No comment
MP When did you write out those cheques, Mr
No comment
we Okay, when you gave Mr Page those cheques and this was a Monday,
did you have sufficient funds in your account to meet those cheques for
£360,000 odd pounds
No comment
No, okay there was a fifth cheque which was also recovered from the
Post Office at the time it was searched on the 13° of January 03
following your arrest, this is also part of exhibit NJW/5 and I have the
cheque here. This cheque is dated the 2 of January 2003, it's cheque
number 100148, it's made out to Post Office limited and the value is
£278,181.82 and again it appears to be signed by yourself, can you
identify that as being your chequeMn GRO I
No comment
MP When did you give Mr Page that cheque
No comment
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Was it on the 2™ of January as indicated
No comment
And why did you give him that cheque
No comment
Did you purchase any Euros on the 2" January 2003 for that value
No comment
Okay, he seems to suggest, this is Mr Page seems to suggest that you
gave him that cheque to cover three other cheques which had bounced
or were stopped, would that be the case
No comment
MP Okay, lets move onto item MP/1, this is three further cheques that have
come back through the system Mri_
through our team in Chesterfield because the cheques have bounced
cheques have been stopped, are you aware of
MP There are three cheques here, the cheque numbers being 100140 dated
20" of December 2002 and for an amount of £1 00,000 exactly in the
company name o' GRO} The second cheque
number 100142 dated again the 20" December 2002 made out to the
Post Office signed by yourself Mi
£87,272.73. The third cheque is cheque number 100144, dated 23” of
December 2002 again made out to the post office signed by yourself and
and for a value of
the value on this one is £90,909.09, do you recognise those cheques Mr
Were those cheques used in relation to purchase of Euros from Rugeley
Post Office
No comment
Would they have been used in relation to the purchase of Euros for that
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dates as specified on the dates themselves
No comment
Do you know why the cheques initially bounced Mr
No comment
Did you have funds in your account to meet these cheques
No comment
MP Okay, why did you ultimately then because it’s got refer to drawer, that
obviously means after it bounced it says refer to drawer and then it’s
subsequently stamped as you can see there Payment Stopped, that
ultimately means that the person responsible for the account has placed
a stop on the account, do you understand what I'm saying
No comment
Why did you ultimately stop these cheques Mr! GRO
No comment
Now if we add the value of these three cheques up it comes to exactly
the figure we spoke about earlier, 278,181.82, now would that be the
three cheques that Mr Page is talking about, the ones you had
apparently suggested to him were going to bounce or had bounced over
the Christmas period and you'd given him a replacement cheque, would
that be the case
No comment
Okay, if that’s not the case then I would suggest that you've already had
the Euros for these cheques back in December 2002 haven't you.
I GRO No comment
MP In which case those three amounts and I refer to now a schedule exhibit
MP/3 which we'll talk about more in a moment, but on those dates in
question... well there's certainly a transaction on the 20"
December 2002 where 144, if I show you the schedule Mr
where 144,000 Euros were purchased and as you can see they were
purchased at a rate of 1.65 and you paid £87,272.73 which maiches this
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cheque here, cheque number 100142, would that be a fair assumption to
make that that cheque was for that transaction Mr! GRO
No comment
Okay, if that cheque was in relation te that transaction obviously the Post
Office haven’t had the funds for that values have they Mri
No comment
Do you accept that that money may still be owing to the Post Office
No comment
Okay, the transaction below that dated the 23 December 2002 again
if's the purchase of Euros, 150,000 this time again at 1.65 and as you
can see the value there is £90,909.09 and again we have a cheque
which matches that and is dated the 22.12.02, would you accept that
No comment
if so once again it would appear that the funds because this cheque has
been stopped by yourself had not been received by the Post Office, do
you agree with that
No comment
And therefore you may have an obligation to meet that value of that
No comment
Okay, this one for £100,000 which is dated 20.12.02 obviously forms
part of another transaction because that's what you generally did didn't
you, you wrote your cheques up to £100,000 and then the odd for
something else, would that be correct
No comment
{ can’t from this schedule at the moment see a specific amount of
£100,000, there was on the 19° of December a transaction, 2002 this is
a transaction for 290,000 Euros where the total value of that was
£176,829.27 and this cheque could form part of that but { don’t know
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where the other cheque is then, would you be able to help me with that
. } No comment
MP There is a further transaction on 24" December 2002 where 200,000
Euros were purchased and the total value of those were £121,202.12
again that £100,000 cheque could form part of that, would you be able to
help me with that.
No comment
If it does it begs the question as to why, well no, okay lets leave those
aside
33:18 MP Let me show you two further cheques that !have[ GRO _I
subsequent to your arrest and Mr Page's arrest, in fact I believe the
following day, I was made aware about those three bounced cheques
that we've just discussed, but the bank had also made our team in
Chesterfield aware of two further cheques which were on there way back
which had also been stopped, not bounced this time stopped right and !'!
show you these two now. These two are identified at MP/2, the first
cheque is cheque number 100156 which is for £100,000 exactly made
payable to the Post Office dated the 1" of January 03 and signed by
yourself. The second cheque is cheque number 100157 dated 7" of
ble to the Post Office Ltd and it's drawn under
_I Signed by yourself and to the value of
£84,332.18, can you identify those two cheques as being yours Mr
No comment
if not what were they used for!
No comment
Okay, at the back of the cheque is the word Bureau and it’s also been
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stamped, there’s a red stamping on there 17° January 03 and there's a
further stamp of 20" January 03 and as you can see just there in the
middie is Bureau, one would suggest that this was a cheque used for a
transaction to purchase Euros or currency from Rugeley Post Office
would you say that’s correct
No comment
And the second one has a similar marking with similar stamps, now
those two are dated 7” January 03 and referring to my schedule MP/3,
there are indeed two transactions which occur on the 7” January, as you
can see, both at 8:46 hours in the morning and both for 150,000 Euros,
now this is a bit interesting because the 1® transaction which is at 8:46
and I say that’s the first because that’s the first one which appears on
the till roll 've examined is done at rate of 1.63 which gives a sterling
value of £92,024.54 okay. The 2™ one which is done seconds later and
therefore was timed at exactly the same time 08:48 is again for the
purchase of 150,000 Euros and the rate this time was 1.625. Why would
Mr Page alter the rate within seconds of each other.
No comment
Did you ask him to alter the rate
No comment
Didn't you say to him, well hang on a minute because at the 1.625 you
had to pay £92,307.69 so you had to pay somewhere in the region of
£280 more for that transaction which you did seconds after the first
transaction, did you not say to him, hang on a minute Cari, you've
charged me 92,024.54 for the first one shouldn't I be getting the second
one for the same rate, didn't you say that fo him
No comment
MP Why did he change it, why did he charge you a little bit more for a
transaction which took place seconds after the first one
No comment
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MP Would it be because he makes a slight profit to make sure the Post
Office don’t realises what he and you are doing
No comment
No, because see these two cheques here the one’s I've detailed to you
come to £184,332 in total and if you add those two values up they come
to exactly that same figure so it’s a fair assumption to make that those
two cheques were used for those transactions
No comment
You don’t agree with that
No comment
MP Can you tell me why, why you stopped those two cheques, you received
the Euros
No comment
it would appear that again you may be liable for the funds, £184,332.18
to the Post Office in relation to those cheques, would you agree
No comment
In total then I ~ GRO _ i we have five cheques which have bounced
or been stopped by yourself, well in fact there’s more because there’s
the four in relation to the 13” of January 03 but I'm not counting those in
this equation at the moment in time, however, they might come into the
equation depending on what happens to the Euro:
because as you are aware Customs & Excise currently hold the Euros
and they're holding the Euros under the Proceeds of Crime Act, now
subsequently if Customs & Excise retain those Euros under the
Proceeds of Crime Act, the Post Office is still short by £360,000 worth of
Euros for which you presented cheques and then stopped and therefore
would you agree that you are also liable for the £360,000 worth of Euros
that you have purchased and that Customs are now hold
No comment
MP Okay, weil forgetting those four cheques for the moment, out of the other
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five cheques that we have the total amount outstanding ........ just bear
with me for a moment ............. okay, right just to give you some figures -
the ten cheques that we've talked about, that’s the five
which have been stopped oh and in fact there is the sixth one which has
been stopped and that's that £278,000 as well and that part of NJW/5,
so in total currently I’m holding ten cheques, all have been stopped, four
used for the transaction on the 13° January 2003 and the other six have
been used prior to that date to purchase Euros, one there is an element
of doubt of which is the £278,000 one as to whether it was a
replacement for three others or whether it was a new transaction, can
you shed any light on that
No comment
Okay, well out of the ten cheques I currently hold the total value of the Is
£1,101,189.60, now lets assume that that £278,000 cheque was a
replacement for the other three which bounced, lets give that element of
doubt shail we, that would bring the total value of the cheques to
£823,007.83 okay
No comment
Now of the cheques which and I'm not counting the £278,000 one nor
am I counting the fours which equate to £360,000, with the remaining
cheques in question which are five the total value comes to £462,514.00
okay, now as a result of the freezing order placed on your accounts and
assets I understand that £300,000 has now been paid to the Post Office,
would you agree with that
No comment
Well I can confirm that it has and therefore if we reduce that £300,000
from that total which I just said to you of £462,514 it leaves and
outstanding amount of £162,514, do you agree that is money that you
owe to the Post Office
No comment
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You've had the Euros for them haven't you
No comment
You've cashed them in at Thomas Cook, made your profit
No comment
But the Post office hasn't received it’s funds
No comment
Okay, can you shed any light as to why you've stopped these cheques if
you've had, if you've had the goods
No comment
is that something that you do in your Business, Mr
No comment
MP Okay, lets put those away for the moment..... how are we doing for time
42:46 MP What I want to do, we've got a few minutes on this tape left is just briefly,
you've seen sight of this schedule, I just want to explain a little bit more
about it and then we'll move onto a different subject. This is a schedule
which I've now compiled or my team have helped compiler, basically
what we've done we've identified from all of the Forde Moneychanger til!
roles that we recovered from Rugeley Post Office, we've looked at the
under copies and we've identified all the large transactions and then
traced the cheques to make sure that they are transactions conducted
by yourself
can see the date appears there, the time of the transaction, what it was
They have then been scheduled and as you
Euros, the amount of Euros you purchased, the amount Mr Page applied
then it gives the value that you paid, the sterling value that you paid for
it, then there is two other columns, one you can see is in blue and green
writing the other is in red, the 1 column says under 5K rate, you may
not be aware of these but Mr Page certainly is, if you're doing a
transaction for under £5,000 it’s those rates which applies, if anyone
does a transaction for over £5,000 the Post Office can give a preferential
rate
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45:11 Buzzer sounds
MP Well it's not even the Post Office, it’s First Rate who give a preferential
rate and those amounts are shown there, now applying the preferential
rate we work out what the sterling value you should have paid for for a
transaction and then we work out the difference and if you look at the
very top one on the 9" March 2002, you bought 40,000 Euros, do you
want to look at the schedule, you bought 40,000 at 1.715 you paid a
sterling value of £23,323.62, you should have paid using the proper rate
£25,346.94 thus the Post Office lost out that transaction by £2,023.32.
Now why would Mr Page want to make the Post Office such a loss
No comment
This tape is going to shortly end so I think what we'll do is suspend this
one and we'll put some fresh tapes in and proceed with a few more
questions okay, are you happy to continue
Er yeah, I think so
Okay, can I just ask yor , this is one of the seals we use
for the tape, you see your name just there can I ask you to put your
signature below that for me please.
46:59 Okay the time now being 12:07 hours, I, suspending this interview
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Recorded interview
Person interviewed
Place of interview Stafford Police Station
POLO000629/73
F POST
OFFICE
Exhibit No:
(JEW) Number of pages:
Signature of interviewing
officer producing exhibit
Date of Interview 1™ April 2003
Time commenced 42:11 hours Time concluded 12:57 hours
Duration of interview 47 minutes Tape referenceno 214/CG/995/03/02
interviewing Officer(s) Mr Manish Patel (MP) Mr Colin Price (CP)
Other persons present MrGhulam Sohail (GS)
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00:10 MP
cso1s
Okay I am resuming the interview, the time is now 12:11 hours, we're in
the interview room at Stafford Police station and the same people are
present. My name is Manish Patel and my colleague is
Colin Price
I'm interviewing {
Sohail, solicitor representin;
Thank you and Mr Sohail
Ghulam Sohail from Chanlilinors Lyon Clark solicitors
tremind you Mri GRO.
You do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence if you do
hat you remain under caution and that is
not mention when questioned something you later relay on in Court,
anything you do say may be given in evidence, do you understand that
Yeah
Would you like me to explain what the caution means or you happy with
NOH Stree ge
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that
f'm happy with your previous explanation
MP Okay thank you and again let me remind you although your solicitor is
here, remind you that at any time if you want to have a private
consultation with your solicitor, please let us know and we will suspend
the interview, okay
Yes
Are you happy to continue the interview
At present yes
If at anytime for whatever reason you feel that you don’t want to precede
with the interview again please let me know and we can stop the tape.
Thank you
01:40
Right we were, I will try not to obviously prolong this but I do have a few
question that I need to ask you!
We were just talking
about this schedule and I think I just about finished explaining the 1°
entry on there on the 9" of March and as you can see the last column
which is the relevant column really is the underpayment and as you can
see there are a number of transactions, unfortunately I haven't worked
out how many there is, there is between 80 and 90 I think on this
schedule, they go from the 9" of March 2002 all the way through to the
current transaction on the 13", however, I’ve put that transaction down
here and in blue because I haven’t counted it in the actual figures, I've
stopped it on the 7" of January 2003 okay. What ! will say however is
that this schedule is in two ways not complete, the first being that not
every till role for that whole period was recovered, there are till roles
missing for 23 days of that period and therefore we can't establish what
Euros were purchased over that period of time and obviously there were
because I have information from other sources mainly Thomas Cook
about other transactions where you've deposited amounts but I can’t tie
in at the present time I can't tie in the purchase of it, do you understand
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that
No comment
MP The second reason for er or why it's not complete, totally complete this
schedule is that I’m in the process and I had hoped to have them by
today but I haven't, I’m in the process of having to get all of the
exchange rates, all of the exchange rates from First Rate which are valid
for the £5,000 and above rate because that’s how I'm
underpayment, do you understand that!_
No comment
MP Where you can see the gaps in this schedule at the moment is the areas
where { haven't got the exchange rates and there's about 30 odd gaps
where I haven't got the exchange rates for the over 5K transactions and
in those instances what I’ve had to do is to use the normal published rate
to give us an indication as to what the underpayment was and by doing
that we arrive at the gross figures at the end of this schedule. Now
when I do get all of those 30 outstanding rates, this amount will reduce,
not significantly but it will reduce. If we just run through the totals then,
the total during that time of Euros that you've purchased from Rugeley
Post Office 11,131,650, would you recall that being around about the
number of Euros you purchased over that time
No comment
Can you, because you say that you initially started purchasing these
Euros for you business purposes, can you explain to me what you use
11 million Euros for for your business
No comment
MP Or is it merely this enterprise of buying them cheaply from Rugeley Post
office and cashing them in at Thomas Cook and thereby making a profit,
is that what predominantly you've used these 11 million Euros for.
No comment
The sterling value of these 11 million Euros, the amount you physically
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paid in cheques over that time comes to £6,701 ,097.18, now that’s a
huge turnover for any company wouldn't you agree
FGRO_ No comment
MP Any small business and you are just a small business, I mean you work
from your home don’t you
No comment
MP That's a huge turnover for any small business isn’t it
‘GRO! No comment
MP Would you say, or would you agree that the vast majority of that 6 million
pounds is just money which has been moving from the account
No comment
And that all you've doing is buying these Euros cheaply and selling them
and pocketing the difference
No comment
And it’s the same money moving around, would you agree with that
No comment
No, because you don't physically have 6 million pounds sitting in any
account do you!
No comment
06:18 Okay, the total value you should have paid had Mr Page applied the
correct rates comes to £7,326,552.43 and the difference there is
£625,594.88, that’s the difference or the discount that Mr Page gave you
over a period of 10 months, nearly three quarters of a million pounds
discount, why would he do that
No comment
{can't at this moment in time see why he’d do that, can you
No comment
Umm, so would you except that the Post Office at this moment in time
has lost £625,594.88
No comment
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No comment .
Mr Page is a Businessman isn't he, he’s been in Business for about 5
odd years so he tells me, have you known him for 5 odd years
No comment
A businessman giving out 625,000 pounds worth of Euros more than he
should do, do you think that makes sense.
No comment
Does it make sense to you, you're a businessman
No comment
You must have, you must have been fairly happy with what you were
getting weren't you! GRO 1
No comment —
Yeah, I mean you've fallen on your feet really haven’t you because here
you've got a Subpostmaster who supposedly isn’t dishonest and has
done this to bring in business and profit for the Post Office albeit that’s
not the case because he’s lost us nearly three quarters of a million
pounds right, here he is doing his job, you pop in one ask him for a
better rate and he agrees it, it’s good of him isn’t it.
No comment
MP And then, not only then he then delays subi
would he do that, do you have any reasons:
No comment
Did you ask him to delay the cheques
No comment
No, also he disregards money laundering regulations, Financial
institutions as well as the Post Office are required to report large
transactions, don't have to be suspicious they are just required to report
them and in this present climate, Mr Page suggests that he wasn’t aware
of that, are you aware of that
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No comment
So he forgets or he chooses not fo fill in the money laundering forms so
he doesn't alert the appropriate authorities, so that’s three mistakes he’s
made so far and they all benefit you don’t they
No comment
And do you think it's reasonable for anyone listening to these tapes to
think that he didn’t gain beneficially from this somehow
No comment
Have you asked him to give you preferential rates for which you've given
him money goods
No comment
No, if not why would he do it
No comment
Because you're not averse to giving out the odd payment here and there
for someone doing you a favour are you
No comment
Mr Morris, Sidney Morris do you know him
No comment
I believe he's an acquaintance of yours, we have a statement from Mr
Morris, is he an acquaintance of yours
No comment
What were business dealings with Mr Moris
No comment
Okay, well Mr Morris, I won't bother with the 48 part because the first
part goes on about him doing some work at a pub, the New Oscott
Tavern pub some time ago and the bill came to some 50 odd thousand
pounds and you rather than paying him in cash offered him a
directorship of a your company, is that correct
No comment
And subsequently two years later, poor Mr Morris found that he'd been
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made bankrupt because the company that you were running went into
—— liquidation, is that correct
i GRO: No comment
‘WP _ Okay, erm he says and I'll read this Hite
episode he says “I carried on seeing,©
can recall in approximately December 2001, M
me and asked me to deposit quantities of Irish Punts into his Business
art out to you, after that little
> from time to time, I
‘approached
account and then transfer these amounts into his account, Mr
‘explained that his Bank account would not accept foreign
currency’, is that the case
No comment
f'm not sure if I've come across a Bank which doesn’t accept Irish Punts,
I may well be wrong, was hat a lic
No comment
Or was that the truth at the time
No comment
Okay, “this is to the best of my recollection, the only payment I would
receive in respect of these transactions would be the odd payment of
£100 in cash, did you make a hundred pounds in cash payment to him
No comment
For his little favour
No comment
MP “I received about £100 on three occasions” and then he tells us about
how he made the CHAPS transfers, details one of the transactions and
he accompanied you to Marseille in Southern France I believe, is that
correct
No comment
MP So as I say you're not averse to giving a little payment for people who do
you favours are you
No comment
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MP He goes onto say that “in approximately August 2002; GRO
was due to go on holiday and he asked me to go and collect a quantity -
of Euros from Rugeley Post Office and to deposit them at the Lichfield
branch of Thomas Cook" is that the case
GRO! No comment
MP Now he says he doesn’t recall ever being paid for that, do you recall
paying him for that
No comment
Whilst we’
13:24 MP
mentioned that in, you've already mentioned that in your prepared
statement, although there is one part of it erm which she says, she say
“last summer I remember in conversation that my father told me he was
dealing in currencies involving Euros and sterling, I understood that he
could make a profit on the exchange rate and I asked him if this was a
legitimate method of making money, he assured me that it was and said
that he had consulted a solicitor on the matter”, had you consulted a
solicitor on that matter
No comment
If so can you provide details of the solicitor that you spoke to
No comment
Right now we've dealt with the purchase of Euros from the Post Office
and I think Customs may have touched on it briefly at the last interview
so I won't delve too much into it, did you ever pur, er sorry sell Euros
back to the Post Office
No comment
{ think in the last interview with Customs & Excise and from reading the
transcripts, I think you said no you hadn't, would that be correct or not
'GRO! No comment
MP Okay, when you purchase Euros from Rugeley Post Office you invariably
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on the same day, is it on the same day you go to Thomas Cook or one
of the other establishments to cash them in as it were
No comment
MP From another schedule I'll show you in a minute it shows pretty much
you do go on the same day if not the day after or may be at the very
most two days after, would that be fair and correct
No comment
Lets say for instance you purchase 100,000 Euros on Monday from
Rugeley Post Office, do you then take all 100,000 directly to lets say for
instance Thomas Cook and cash them in
No comment
I mean do you keep some back for yourself, or de you cash the whole [ot
in or what do you know
No comment
On the date of your arrest the 13” of January 2003, you bought 584,000
Euros for which I can show you a copy of the receipt and I think you
have the top copy of the receipt anyway, do you agree with that
GRO! No comment
MP For which you paid with those cheques and we’ve discussed those four
cheques. When you were going into the erm Hypermarket, it wasn’t
Thomas Cook on that day was it, when you were going into the
Hypermarket to cash them in, how many Euros were in the Holdall
No comment
MP Weil Customs subsequently have counted them and there’s 582,000
Euros in the hoidall
No comment
Can you explain where the other two thousand were
No comment
When you let Rugeley Post Office, what time did you leave
No comment
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Did you go directly to the Hypermarket in was it Birmingham
No comment
Did you go directly to the Hypermarket
No comment
Or did you go elsewhere, did you go home
No comment
17:00 Okay, see the reason why I ask whether there was, why there was a
shortage of those 2000 Euros is because {'ve now analysed the
purchases that you make and the deposits that you make and I want te
introduce a couple more schedules to you, this is a schedule not been
prepared by me but this is a schedule prepared by Thomas Cook, they
have detailed from 16" January 02 up until the 4" of January 03 all of
the amounts or the transactions that they have had with you or those
acting on your behalf, do you understand that
No comment
MP They say on a particular date which location it was because there was
four being used, there was Birmingham New Street, Lichfield, Cannock
and Tamworth, they identify the location the amount of Euros deposited,
the sterling value and whether it was credited to you bank account via
electronic transfer or via cheque and invariably it’s via by electronic
transfer. There's the schedule there and as you can see that’s what they
basically detail, we get to the final page, that figure needs to be clarified
but they're suggesting that some 8,194,502.19 Euros have passed
through there branches on behalf of transactions that you or others
acting on your behalf have conducted, would you say that’s correct
No comment
What I’ve done, I've then looked at how much you deposit and how
much you purchase and I've prepared a schedule which is identified at
MP/4 and on this schedule I've also shown cheques that have been used
for these deals. The first column here shows the purchase, it shows the
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date, day and amount which was purchased, this middle section refers to
the cheques so we have the date of the cheque where we have been
able to identify it, the amount of the cheque which appears on the
cheque itself and BCV stands for Batch Control Voucher it's a little form
we in the Post Office use to summarise the cheques which need to be
sent of on a daily basis to for processing and that’s the date that they
were forwarded to our processing centre, then we have the third part of
this schedule which is the Thomas Cook deposits and that gives you the
date that you went in to deposit them, the amount you deposited any
difference from what you bought and what you deposited and any little
comments generally for my benefit really. Now lets have a look at the
14° of March 2002, this schedule here suggests that it was a Thursday,
you bought 64,900 Euros and the date of the cheque of all three
cheques because there were three cheques was the 14” of March 2002,
there was one cheque for the value of £8, 128.65, the an cheque value
of £6,432.75 and the third cheque of £23,432.92, can you confirm
whether you recall those amounts or that transaction.
No comment
Okay, the next column is interesting because we've got the transaction
which occurred on the 14° of March, we have two of the cheques, right
that’s a Thursday one thing I didn’t make clear aiso in the Post Office we
have what we call weekly cash accounts they start on a Thursday
morning and end on Wednesday afternoon or Wednesday evening and
on a Wednesday everything in the accounts must be bought to account
and they despatched and sent away to it's various places okay. Now the
date of the transaction was the 14” as we've sald is a Thursday, 2 of the
cheques the smaller valued ones the eight thousand and the 6 thousand
are dated the 13" March 2002, the day before can you offer any reason
as to why that was
No comment
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Would it be because it might be a Wednesday date
No comment
Now you may not be familiar with the Post Office procedures but Mr
Page would wouldn't he
No comment
And it would it be at Mr Page’s suggestions that you dated those the 13”
of March
No comment
MP Were those cheques prepared prior to you arriving at the Post Office
already
No comment
Okay, the fourth ones even more interestingly really, sorry the fourth one
cail it the fourth, the third ones more interesting the one for £23,000
because that one is dated 20" March 2002 and as you can see I've put
in bold because ['m fascinated by that one
No comment
MP Why would the third cheque for a transaction which is being done all at
one time or one occasion be dated 4 days later from when you did the
transaction
(GROI No comment
co Can I just ask something
MP Sorry not the cheque
cP Batch control voucher
MP Sorry sorry, I've misled you there, thanks for that Colin I just noticed that
sorry, let me rephrase that, all of the cheques all of the cheques were
dated the 14" March 2002 right which fs the same date at the
transaction, the dates I was referring you to there are the Batch Control
Vouchers, i.e. the two for 8000 and 6000 were sent away on the 13"
which is the Wednesdays date which again ties in with when the cash
accounts were supposed to be done, however the next one wasn’t sent
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away till the following week, the 20" do you understand that
No comment
{ confused the issue there by giving you the wrong dates, but !’ll explain
that further if you want me to
No comment
I'll do that anyway, as I say transaction on the 14” and if we refer to this
item this schedule MP/3 we can see where it corresponds if we look at
the 14" of March you can see the three transactions, which happen.
The 1* one happens at 07:19 hours and it's an amount of 13,900 Euros
and the amount in sterling is £8,128.65, that matches this one here
£8,128.65 okay. The 2™ transaction happens at 07:20 hours so 4
minute later and it's for the purchase of 11,000 Euros and you paid
£6,432.75 and again there we are there’s the cheque for the same
amount. Now were you physically on the premises at that time 07:19
and 07:20 to do that transaction
No comment
Because later that day at 13:04 hours right on the same day you do
anther transaction for 40,000 Euros this time and the value for that
comes to £23,432.92 right so from that schedule and sure enough on
this schedule MP/4 you can see there's the same value £23,000,
however as I said earlier although all of the cheques are dated the 14”
of March 2002, the higher value one, the £23,000 one wasn't sent away
for processing until the following week the 20" yeah do you follow that
{GRO} No comment
26:10 MP Did you come back into the Post Office at 13:04 to make that purchase
of 40,000 Euros
No comment
MP See from the till roles, I mean that's what we have to go by the till roles,
it would suggest that you were on the premises well possibly on the
premises and did two transactions within a minute of each other at 0719
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and 0720 which as you've said in your prepared statement you do for
security reasons yeah and it would appear later on at 13:04 you’ve come
back to the Post Office to buy 40,000 pounds more Euros would you say
that was correct
No comment
is that what you did Mr
No comment
GRO,
Or did you do something else
No comment
Did you ask Mr Page to suppress, hold on, delay sending the cheque for
£23,000 away
GRO I No comment
MP Did he suggest it
i No comment
MP Why, why was that cheque delayed for processing, can you answer that
No comment
MP Well do you accept that those three values from looking at schedule
MP7/3, if you add those three values up 13,900, 11,000 and 40,000 you
come 64,900 yeah
No comment
64,900 is what is purchased on that day which I’ve got on this schedule
here MP/4, what you deposit with Thomas Cook on the very same is
$0,000 and as I've shown here that’s minus 4,900 so effectively you
bought 64,900 but you deposited 60,000, do you understand that
No comment _ ee
What did you do with the other 4,900 Mri GRO_ I
No comment
Okay, did you deposit all of the 60,000 in one go
No comment
Because I'm a little stumped with that one, maybe you can help me
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because here’s the Thomas Cook transaction details and as I say
Thomas Cook have provided a statement and this forms part of the
exhibits from that statement and this is exhibit 1PB2S/02, this is this is
the sheet and in fact the till role which identifies that transaction that
Thomas Cook use and as you can see on part of it here it says at the
Lichfield branch 60,000 buy back deal, the rate they gave you 1.63 and
the amount that was credited £36,809.81 less £20 for the transfer into
GRO
senenenteneeneened
your account yeah. What's reaily interesti
} xO is if you
look at this, this is the date and the time of actually when it happened,
44:57 hours on the 14" March 2002 right, 'm a little stumped as to how
you had 60,000 Euros to deposit at Lichfield Branch of Thomas Cook
when you've only bought at 07:19 and 07:20 you've only bought 24,900,
I'm a little bit stumped there can you assist
No comment
You can’t assist
No comment
Would it be that Mr Page let you have all of the Euros at that time
No comment
Would that be the reason
No comment
Well that would account for how you walked out of the office early in the
morning after 0720 with 64,900 Euros and you were able to go to
Thomas Cook at 14:57 and deposit 60,000 of those, that would account
for it wouldn't it
No comment
And if you did that, then than begs the question why did Mr Page put in
the transaction for the third value at 13:04
No comment
But you see where I’m coming from don’t you
No comment
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MP Okay, see and not only that he puts in the transaction later in the day
and then he doesn’t send that cheque, that one cheque, he sends the
other two away, he doesn’t send that cheque away which is the higher
value the £23,000 one until the following week the following Thursday
thereby he’s suppressing your cheque, did you ask him to do that
No comment
Why do you think, why do you think he did that
No comment
Umm, it’s odd isn't it, this is the Subpostmaster who professes his
innocence and says I don’t know what's going on I don’t you know, }
though I had the discretion to give whatever rates I wanted to and here
he we are doing some very strange things with your transactions, I mean
if you bought them all at the same time and you must have bought them
all at the same time because that’s what you did you deposited 60,000 at
11:57 why when the Post Office was closed and you and Mr Page were
standing alone in the Post Office doing this transaction at 07:19 and
07:20, why didn’t he put in this transaction at 07:21 as the third one
‘GRO: No comment
MP You have no idea why he didn’t do that
No comment
May I suggest to you that he did that because those two the 8,000 and
6,000 valued ones were fairly low amounts and it was probably agreed
between the two of you that he had to despatch those because it was a
Thursday, that he would, he would delay in entering the transaction on
the Forde moneychanger to later in the day so therefore if it was ever
checked by anyone in accounts they could see that the transaction
happened later on the Thursday afternoon and that therefore would
justify his reasoning for not sending your cheque away till the following
week, would that be a reasonable explanation
No comment
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34:00
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Now I can’t see any reason why he would do that unless he was in
collusion with yourself
No comment
You see if he’s doing nothing wrong, he's doing nothing dishonest why, I
just can’t understand why he wouldn't do a transaction at 07:21 hours for
the 40,000, clearly you walked out of that Post Office with 64,900 Euros
shortly after 9 er 07:20 in the morning
No comment
Clearly you must have done, because you were able and you were ina
position at 11:57 to deposit 60,000 of those, that’s what happened didn’t
it
No comment
Now you know, MirGRo ?, Mr Page might want to suggest that he's not
acting dishonestly but I think he’s going to have a hard job explaining
why he did that, don’t you
No comment
Okay, lets there are quite a number of other cheques which have been
delayed and this schedule demonstrates it, I'm not going to go fully into it
but this schedule MP/4 does demonstrate it, you will notice that
invariably a lot of the transactions happen on a Thursday or Friday and
the cheques aren't sent away until the following period. Let me have a
look, lets have a look over the page at the 19" of April 2002, it was a
transaction conducted on Friday where 100,000 Euros where purchased
and we have one of the cheques used for that transaction, one of the
cheques used for that transaction, sorry the 19" and the 23 you bought
100,000 Euro worth on the 19" and 23”, 35 on the 19", 65 on the 23%,
the cheque in relation to the transaction on the 19" is dated the 23” of
April can you explain why it's got Mondays date on it...... no in fact it’s
not Mondays date is it, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Tuesdays date on it
when you did the transaction on Friday the 19”
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Gs
MP
No comment
Well surely a Subpostmaster would have asked you and said hang ona
minute
No
Okay, and then as we can see that cheque is then dispatched on the
you've put 23” on there it's the 19" today...no
24” which would have been the Wednesday albeit it was received on the
19" and this scenario continues for for as I say a number of occasions,
what I want to move onto is that if you look at this schedule and you're
more than welcome to spend time having a look at it, there are
predominately a number of red marks which are the minus figures ie.
you've purchased more Euro from the Post Office than deposited at
Thomas Cook, is there a reason for that Mr __..GRO_}
No comment
Did you use any of those Euros for your business
No comment
Did you use them for your personal, for yourself
No comment
Or did you give them to Mr Page
No comment
As payment for his little favour
No comment
No, so you've never left any Euros with Mr Page
No comment
If we get to the end of this schedule, it shows that.......... Sorry no not
this one, there is a total there the total amount which Thomas Cook
Have bought back which is 11,131,650, but so so that's no, those
amounts which are
Is that right because that's a different figure to the one you gave me
earlier
Yeah
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Gs is that the amount he's bought from the Post Office and the amount that
you said that
MP No no because no well the time spans are different
GS Right
MP Because, we've got 11, we've got 11 sorry
Gs That’s your document again, it was the Thomas cook document I was
referring to, not the MP/3 of yours
MP Oh right no, Thomas Cooks is different because not ail of the
transactions have taken place at Thomas Cook
Gs Right
MP They've goi a value of, they've got a sterling value of 8 million
GS Yes I see yeah
MP However there have been other outlets used which aren't Thomas Cook,
erm right
GS That will be a Euros value won't it not a sterling value
MP No sterling value
Gs Sterling value js it right
38:36 MP Okay, so those shortfall for instance fike on the 13” January 03, you
were 2000 Euros short when Customs arrested you whilst going into the
Hypermarket, did you leave those 2000 Euros with Mr Page
/GRO} No comment
“MP Was that his little payment for assisting you with this enterprise
d No comment
No, see Mr Page suggests that he gets nothing out of this apart from this
one transaction of £1:12 that he makes frorn it, I find that incredible to
believe based on the evidence I have before me, and I think 12
members of the jury sitting in a Court room can draw there own
conclusions when faced with the evidence
GS if the matter proceeds to that stage
MP Of course, any comments
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39:39
CSO15A
I MP
GS
MP
GS
MP
GS
MP
No comment
Right just very briefly then I want to talk about your bank accounts, now I
have copies of some of the statements that you supplied or the Police
have obtained via production orders on your banks, there are two
accounts in particular, one is in the name of!
and the 2°
account which is account number)
account number! t is in your name business
hat I want to demonstrate
and I’m nat going through all of them but what {I want to demonstrate
with one of them is just this, excuse my scribbles on this piece of note
here, on 813 right, on the 20° March tight the balance in your account if I
show you
This is account number 2
This is account number erm the Business account in Mi
Right yes
Just get fo March 02, right 20" of March, right 20" March the account
shows as I've said there a balance of some £4,245.34 which is there.
You have then a Thomas Cook credit on the same day of some
£24,887.98 erm right which sorry no sorry beg your pardon, following the
credit of that Thomas Cook value that's what your account had in the
balance £4,245.34 yeah. There's another credit by Thomas Cook which
happens on the 21“ of March for £32,495.34 which brings your account
up to £25,940.68 in credit okay. If we go back to schedule number MP/3
you will see that on the 20" March
Sorry is that right because I think the .....the date encashment yeah
okay yeah
Yeah, going back to MP/3 on the 20 March we can see that one
transaction took place at 07:09 hours for the purchase of 50,000 Euros
and the value was £29,411.76 okay, so that’s on the 20". On the 20°
your account showed a credit of £3,845.34 so there wasn’t sufficient
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cS015A,
MP
funds in your account on that day that you wrote the cheque was there
No comment
Okay, were you expecting funds to be deposited into that account to
meet that cheque when it was presented
No comment
in normal course that cheque would have probably been sent off that
night from Rugeley Post Office on 20” March and within 3 to 4 days it
should have been taken out of your account, yeah
No comment
On the 21" as I’ve said the balance is £25,940.68 because you've had a
credit, then there’s another deposit from Thomas Cook for 51 odd
thousand pounds which takes your amount balance on the 22™ to
£77,204.82 okay, then there's four cheques which get presented to your
account and I’ve highlighted the bottom one for £29,411.76 because that
matches the transaction that you did on the 20", so five days after the
20" it hits your account shail we say yeah, there we are that’s what I say
here 29 from the 20” okay, on the 22 however right you did that
transaction well you did another transaction where you used three
different cheques, one for £23,529.41, one for £15,411.76 and one for
£2,941.18 and I’ve put in brackets this cheque here because this cheque
here should have been for the value of £25,411.76 because if we look at
the transactions for the 22” on here and there's the three of them there
we can see that the 1° one is 07:18 you buy 40,000 and you pay
£23,529.41, the next one you but at 07:21 and the next 07:23
Buzzer sounds
At 07:21 you purchase 43,200 and then you purchase 07:23 purchase
5,000 and that’s the one there £25,411.76 and then £2,941.18 that’s why
I say that cheque there which was for 15,000 which we've found was
short by £10,000 can you explain why that is
No comment
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MP Just very quickly then, if we trace when those checks were deposited,
the transaction having been done on the 22™, they didn’t hit your
account fill 18 days later do you know why that is
_GRC No comment
MP And during those 18 days you continued purchasing as I've listed here,
you've continued purchasing on the 26”, the 27", 28", the 1" of April,
3%, 4" and 5” to a value of £153,000
No comment
Now aren't you just doing it on credit, you’re just buying on credit aren't
you
No comment
Okay, okay i'm not going to start up another fresh tape, so I propose to
terminate this interview now, I must say to you that you may have
rendered yourself to Prosecution, you do not have to say anything but
may harm your defence if you do not mention now something which you
later rely on in Court, anything you do say may be given in evidence. Do
you wish to clarify anything before I end the tape
No comment
47:12 MP Okay, the time then being 12:57 I’m terminating this interview.
coisa, Version 3.0 11/02
ANY,
Lay
{ wish to make the following significant statement in relation to any interview(s) to be
embarked upon today, where it will be alleged that I together with others have stolen
monies belonging to P.O.L by the manipulation of foreign exchange rates. I reserve
the right subsequently to rely upon any issue, matter or document not referred to in
this statement which is made without prejudice/ any restriction as to how my defence
may be presented if this allegation is prosecuted before a criminal court;
(ht) T accept that I was involved in the purchase of Euros from the Rugeley
Post Office where J dealt with Mr Carl Page for a period of approximately
one year. I can be specific as to times, dates and amounts if 1 am allowed
td refer to my business records, which have been kept in relation to each
and every transaction carried out between Rugeley Post Office and me.
(2) All fhe transactions were carried out as far as I am concered on a proper
commercial footing and are all to be accounted for in the trading accounts
of RPX Ltd, of which I am the Managing Director.
(3) Until the date of my arrest on the 13 January 2003, 1 was not aware that
Mr Page did not have authority/permission to sell Euros to me at the rates,
which he did. It was always my belief that he operated on a margin basis
bearing in mind the volume of trade that was carried out between us
(4) LT attended Rugeley Post Office prior to the official opening time on
occasions to purchase Euros at this time for security reasons, duc to the
quantities of monies involved.
(5) Laccept that I have paid for and collected Euros from Mr Page and his
staff. In the latter scenario in] Page’ s absence, the purchase(s) have
been at rates that were shortly before purchase with Mr Page
direct. :
(6) i was not aware until proceedings were brought against me to freeze my
assets in the High Court after my original arrest of the terms of any
relationship between Mr Page and P.O.L.
(7) Some.of {he Euros that I purchased were used in the business deali
\ I This was my original reason for purchasing Euros.
(8 In my interview with Officers from Customs and Excise at Stetchlord
“ Police Station on the 13 January 2003, I gave detailed responses to
questions about my business commitments, past and present. I rely upon
those answers in the event that similar questions are to be pul tome tas
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POL00062573
- (9) [deny any suggestion of any criminal wrong-doing as is being alleged
CG against me either as a result of my own conduct or jointly with any other.
(10) I wish to place on record my unhappiness about the way in which I was
dealt with ai Gebetee Station on the 13 January 2003. [ was conveyed to
this station after being released by Stetchford Police at 2104 hours. A
police surgeon who examined me at Stetchford made it clear to officers
from this station that immediately upon my arrival here I should be seen
by a police surgeon who would clarify whether I was fit to be detained and
further interviewed. I had suffered that day from high blood pressure and
chest pains. A surgeon did not see me by 2240 hours having arrived at this
station at 2130 hours. By this time my medical condition deteriorated
which led to me being transported to hospital in an ambulance after I
collapsed.
Served and Dated: 24 Febraary 2003