Summary of Tape
Recorded Interview
Person Suzanne Elizabeth McKnight (SM) Exhibit No:
Interviewed Number of pages:
Place of Room at Appley Bridge Post Office Branch Signature of interviewing
Interview officer producing exhibit
POL00072167
POL00072167
Date of Interview 15" October 2008
Time 10:39am Time concluded 11:20am
commenced
Duration of 41 minutes Tape reference 071371
Interview no
Interviewing Stephen Bradshaw (SB)
Officer(s) Paul Whitaker (PW)
Other persons Winifred Maureen Whalley (WW) —
present Friend
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
0.00
TAS
8015
SM agrees to interview being tape recorded
Legal Rights given and representation declined — Form GS001
completed and signed.
Post Office friend Accepted — Form GS003 completed and signed.
Caution given and Explained.
The purpose of the interview was explained to SM.
SB explained that an in July SB attended the branch and there
was a problem concerning the ATM machine. Instructions were left
to contact Chesterfield as the figures had been reported earlier
and this was causing discrepancies.
There was audit on 20" August 2008 and resulted in a shortage of
£53,035.60. SB explained that SM’s mother is the sub postmaster
Version 3.0 11/02
POL00072167
POL00072167
Summary of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape
counter
times
Person
speaking
Text
9.30
10.30
11.15
11.30
CSO1SA
SM
who was suspended on this day. We attended at a later date and
a search of the premises was done, but an interview could not take
place as there was a power cut in the area. SM was then due to go
on holiday and the interview was arranged for this day.
SM agreed that this was correct.
SB asked SM what could she say about the audit and the
shortage.
SM explained that the auditors came back with quite a large
discrepancy, one for the ATM and the other for the Stock Unit.
I knew that there would be a discrepancy of some sort, not to the
degree that it was, especially the cash machine, the last I knew it
was the ten thousand and it jumped up to I think it was thirty
thousand or something like that. I honestly can’t see why that was.
I was just doing things as I was told to do things. The all of a
sudden it went wrong.
SB asked SM for an explanation for the difference in the lottery
scratch cards.
SM said that they had received an error correction and that she
had read it wrong, SM assumed that it was scratch cards that SM
had put through the system that she had activated but when she
had not. SM thought that it was in their favour as she had put to
many through the system that she shouldn’t have done. SM said
that it was wrong and that it was lost money and that it was a mis-
understanding of how things worked.
SB asked for an explanation concerning the difference in the
cheques on hand.
SM explained that previous members of staff had made mistakes,
whilst SM was absent. On her return SM said that there was a
Version 3.0 11/02
POL00072167
POL00072167
Summary of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
request for evidence for the cheques that had remmed out twice.
The evidence was sent out showing it was not the fault of the
branch and SM said that nothing was done about it and never
been rectified back to them, as it was not their fault as it was a
doubling up of the money sent out.
12.30 SM said that her mother had, had the Post Office for nearly four
years. SM confirmed that her mother never worked behind the
counter and SM was the officer in charge during this time.
SM explained that she attended the training school, SM said that
she had previously worked in a Post Office and this training wasn’t
management style training, it was basically counter training. SM
said the course was for a week, but as they were the only people
on the course, they did not due full days, never attended on one
day and on the final day they attended only for a couple of hours.
SM said that the hours that they did, the course could have been
done in two days.
14.30 SM explained that they balanced at the end of the Trading Period.
and how they performed the balance.
SB asked SM what they did with any surplus amounts, SM replied
that they would put it in the safe.
SB then asked what they would do with any shortages. SM said
that if they had it in the safe, they would put it back. SM was then
asked what if they didn’t have the money in the safe
16.00 Depending on the amount we would put it back in out of our own
money, but obviously if there is a large amount, stupidly I’ll sort of
put that back in next week or week after.
16.15 SB Did the money go back in next week or the week after?
SM Sometimes it did sometimes if didn’t.
CSO1SA Version 3.0 11/02
POL00072167
POL00072167
Summary of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
SB explained that SM was rolling their losses and asked when the
money would have gone back in. SM said that it would have gone
in before the next balance.
17.00 It was explained to SM that if the money was not replaced, then
the losses would mount up over a period of time and the losses
would accumulate.
SB SB asked if there was any time that your balance was actually
straight? SM replied that she honestly could not remember, the
balance was never been down to a tee where its been straight,
there have been times when its been twenty pounds here or there.
SB explained about how the losses mount up, if the money is not
put into to make the balance correct.
19.00 SM Do you mean, did I put the money in at any point
SB yes to make it straight
SM No, to be honest, not intentionally I didn’t do it, it was the fact that I
had forgot or and, no I did I did put it back in but not every time if
you get what I mean.
A discussion took place and it was said to SM that if she did not
put the money in, in Period one, she would put the money in, in
period two. SM said that this was correct.
SM said that it was a repetitive thing, where they were up and
down and at one point, her mother did ring the Post Office to
request that they come down to have a look at what was going on
because they were struggling with it, but nobody came.
19.45 SM went on to say that the problems were due to her lack of
experience and she said that she was Ok sitting there serving
customers, selling the products but the accounting side, had got
SM confused.
CSO1SA Version 3.0 11/02
POL00072167
POL00072167
Summary of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
The audit report (JR/1) was shown to SM. It was confirmed that
the ATM was installed in March.
SM was asked what training she received for the ATM machine.
SM replied “Not Much To Be Honest”. SM said that she was
shown how to open the ATM up, how to open the drawers and fill it
up, SM said that it was very short and they were given a pamphlet
to work it out themselves.
21.30 SM said that the first fill of the machine a small amount of cash
was put in to show they how to do it. SM further explained the
ATM Fill and confirmed that a separate Stock Unit for the ATM
was held.
22.00 SB asked SM to explain the ATM Stock Unit, what money goes in
and why, the reporting of the figures and how the cassettes are
filled.
SM said that two of them would count the cash before loading the
cassette for the ATM.
30.00 SM said that they had Transaction Corrections for the ATM as they
had reported figures before 1630 and she said that the clock ion
the machine must have been a different time to the branch clock.
32.15 SB Have you ever filled the machine by yourself?
32.30 SM No
SB Ever filled the machine out of hours, when you shouldn’t have
done?
SM Out of hours as in?
SB Outside the normal Post Office or Shop hours.
SM Not the shop hours but the Post Office hour’s yes?
SB You filled it?
SM Yes but not on my own.
CSO1SA Version 3.0 11/02
POL00072167
POL00072167
Summary of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
SM confirmed that she had never filled the ATM by herself.
SB Have you ever taken any of the money for yourself?
SM No
SB Have you ever taken any of the money out of the safe before
passing it over as £20,000?
SM No
SB Have you ever stolen any of the money?
33.00 SM No
SB Can you give me an explanation of how we are £30,000 plus short
in the ATM?
SM To be honest with you I can’t, because I am as shocked as
anybody else about it. It is a ridiculous amount of money and like
the last time that you came, it was £10,000 but then within the
scale of a month or so it has just rocketed and became that
ridiculous amount of money, but I can’t, I don’t know the workings
of it, I know that a gentleman came the other work to train the girls,
he was here for well over an hour, training them on the actual
machine, and the only thing I can think about that, is that
somewhere along the line I’ve been making huge mistakes in how
I have been inputting things and how I have been doing things for
it to be the degree that it is, I have never taken, I have not touched
the money, it has always been separate, its never been where it
has got muddled up with anything else, it has always been
separate.
34.15 It was explained that in the month, the amount had tripled. SM
said that it was a shock to her and it was to you. SM confirmed
that a Transaction Correction had been received for approximately
£8,000. SB explained that the £8,000 may have covered the
CSO1SA Version 3.0 11/02
POL00072167
POL00072167
Summary of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
original outstanding amount, but it still left £20,000 to be explained
and asked SM if she had an explanation.
SM replied no and that she did not understand the workings of the
machine.
SB So in between the July and the August did you do anything
different concerning the ATM machine?
SM No
35.15 SM said that the cash machine was new to her and the girls, SM
stated that she had reported the figures on the ATM as she had
been told and re-iterated that everything had been kept separate
and she could not give us an answer to where the money has
gone because I was just shocked when the auditors told her how
much it was. SM said that she said to the auditors, how could that
be, when the money is never touched apart from when the money
is being loaded into the ATM.
PW asked SM if it was always her that put the figures onto the
Horizon system or was it the other girls?
36.30 SM replied that Rachael would occasionally put the figures onto
the Horizon system is she was busy. SM was asked if she told
Rachael the figures and SM replied that she (Rachael) would have
the slip.
SM confirmed that Rachael would put the figures on the same as
she would.
PW So you have no reason to believe that she is deliberately done
anything to cock the figures up or anything?
SM No
SM confirmed that the ATM was installed in March 2008, the
branch was visited in July and between this visit and the audit
CSO1SA Version 3.0 11/02
POL00072167
POL00072167
Summary of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
£20,000 was missing, SM was asked if she continued to do it as
she had done from day one?
SM Yes
37.30 SB explained that on the audit report, there was a shortage of just
over £5,000 in the lottery scratch cards and asked SM for an
explanation.
SM No, that has come about, from the error corrections and the only
thing I can say about that is that I read the error correction wrong,
accepted it not realising that, it wasn’t as I thought, I thought it was
that they were giving us the stock, because, not the stock, I
thought that it was money in our favour in the sense that it was
money I had put through that I shouldn’t have put through or you
know, because the way it read it was that it was a credit to many
scratch cards either activated or something like that, so I read it as
that I had gone into the system and activated, your know, too
many. But they weren’t and I think that there was two of them that
came back like that and I was, I just didn’t understand that either
to be fair, I just think a lot of this is a lack of understanding and
knowledge of how these things work when they come through, I
was stupidly accepting them.
38.45 SB So you feel that the scratch cards, is because you have activated
to many scratch cards?
SM Yes, that is how I read it
A discussion took place regarding the activation of lottery scratch
cards.
40.30 SM explained how they activated the lottery scratch cards and said
that she did not activate all the packs. If more cards were required
on the shop side, the staff in the shop would activate the cards
CSO1SA Version 3.0 11/02
POL00072167
POL00072167
Summary of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
Tape
counter
times
Person
speaking
Text
42.00
CSO1SA
SB
SM
and SM would not always be told.
SM said that they use to have a separate lottery stock unit, but
they stopped using it because SM kept serving customers out of
this stock unit. SM said that she contacted the Post office and told
them what she had done, she was told to reverse things out and
get everything out of the system, When SM contacted them again,
she was told you shouldn’t have done anything, you should have
left it and just removed the cash.
Have you ever activated any of these scratch cards for your own
use?
No
SB explained that the tape buzzer was due to sound and we would
change the tapes before proceeding with the interview.
All parties signed Master Tape seal 071371
Tape switched off at 11.20am.
Version 3.0 11/02
Summary of Tape Recorded Interview (continued)
POL00072167
POL00072167
Tape
counter
times
Person
speaking
Text
CSO1SA
Version 3.0 11/02