POL00089457
POL00089457
Post Office Ltd
POST OFFICE LTD- CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Taped Interview
Record of Taped Interview Summary
Person GRANT IAN ALLEN (GA) Exhibit No:
interviewed:
Place of Number of pages: 11
Interview:
Signature of interviewer
Date of 19.4.12 Time commenced: 12.02
Interview:
Tape reference 073555 Time concluded: 13.05
no.:
Duration of
Interview:
Interviewing STEVEN BRADSHAW (SB) ANDREW WISE (AW)
Officers:
Other persons
present:
Tape Person TEXT
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Usual introductions made, caution administered and
explained. Forms GS001 & GS003 completed. GA
declines the presence of a Post Office friend or
Solicitor. GA confirmed the matter was not
discussed during the break.
2.50 GA I did remember one thing while I was out where
we’re saying about the losses all adding up. Some
of the (indistinct) losses were obviously error
correction notices that had come in have to be
accepted but could not put so that was in, it
wasn’t all just straight losses some were error
correction notices where green giros supposedly
went missing etc, don’t know how when they all get
sent off but there you go things that like so it
wasn’t obviously that losses and all it was other
error correction notices that had been sent
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through to us.
5.00 SB switched off the tape at 12.07 in order to make
a phone call to make sure they can carry on with
the interview without a Solicitor as GA had
indicated he was not sure whether he wanted a
Solicitor or not having been told he had committed
a criminal offence.
5.30 The interview continued at 12.31 when GA said he
is happy to carry on without a Solicitor as he
will talk to one after the interview. GA
confirmed the matter was not discussed between him
and AW while the tapes were off.
7.45 GA was shown SB3 a cash declaration showing an
amount of cash on hand on the unusable line of
£7,000 for stock unit KK.
8.07 SB Right is that part of the figure that?
GA Yes.
SB That includes the losses?
GA Yes.
SB So for every time you done a cash dec from March
2010 that’s what you did you would add whatever
the shortage that you couldn’t?
GA Yeah yeah whatever shortage either on that or if
it was smaller and it was a round figure it might
have been up on the 10 or the 20 but the figure
was.
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SB That’s the majority of the loss?
8.32 GA Yeah.
SB Give or take a few pound either way depending on?
GA Yeah.
8.40 GA shown SB4 a balance snapshot for KK showing
cash to the value of £17,885.
9.03 SB So that’s how much should have been in yours but
that figure is incorrect?
GA Yes.
SB Because that includes all the losses from the
previous 18 months?
GA The losses that I could not make good yeah, losses
that I could not make good.
SB Ok the next one I’m going to show you is SB5
right. Now during the audit just under 13,000 in
actual cash was the shortage?
GA Yeah.
SB You’ve already explained £1400’s like that month’s
that hasn’t been swapped over yet and includes an
amount. Now the auditor reported that £11,705 was
attributed to KK stock?
GA Yeah.
SB But you’ve already explained to us that’s the
accumulation of all the losses over this period of
time?
GA Yeah.
SB Ok so just to finalise the point in there you’ll
see SB5 which is a list of, this is taken from
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what’s the P32 which is a report what the auditors
input their figures onto ok, that’s for each
individual stock unit?
10.00 GA Yeah yeah.
SB And if you see the one for KK it’s a little bit
dark at the bottom it’s something like £6,180.00.
GA Yeah.
SB Right so are you happy that, and that’s the amount
that was actually in your stock unit?
GA Yes yeah.
SB So if we take the 6,180 from what should have been
nearer 17,000, we arrive roughly at the
£11,705.00.
GA Yes.
10.26 SB Right and that difference as previously stated is
all to do with the losses?
GA Yeah JJ’s was over. We did have a problem on, I
remember we were trying to find some and we said
it could have been missed somewhere so around
those figures yeah.
SB Right so what would happen for argument’s sake, AA
would roll into BB, CC, DD.
GA Yeah.
SB GG HH KK JJ and then either, we’ll say either John
or Karen could have been LL or MM?
GA Yeah.
SB And then one of them all the losses would roll
into there and then the following day?
GA Yeah.
SB You would take money out of your stock unit to
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make all the rest correct.
GA Yeah.
SB And the one that’s always out.
GA Was mine.
11.10 SB After a trading period was KK that belonged to
you?
GA Yeah.
11.20 GA was shown the last 6 branch trading statements
SB6 - 11 highlighting the cash on hand figure for
KK.
11.35 SB So on each trading statement and that’s working
from the most recent backwards.
GA Yeah.
SB On there you see the cash on hand figure and the
one for KK stock.
GA Yeah.
SB Ok now each time you balanced... right if you show
on the front of it where it shows the cash on hand
for the branch
GA Sorry on this one yeah yeah yeah.
SB So the cash on hand on there.
GA Yeah.
SB For the first one £23,331.85p.
GA Yeah.
SB Right that cash on hand figure includes all the
losses so if me and Andrew had gone in to count
your cash would we have found that amount of money
or is that amount of money incorrect?
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GA No you wouldn’t it would have been incorrect.
12.22 SB Yeah and then on the reverse of it see the one for
KK the amount of money?
GA Yeah.
12.27 SB And again is that the true amount of money that
was in there?
GA No it wouldn’t have been the true amount of money,
I’ve already said that.
12.38 SB And that’s the same for each of these trading
statements?
GA Yes.
SB And every trading statement back to March 2010?
GA Yeah.
SB And by doing so inflating the cash you’re
falsifying the document and therefore a criminal
offence?
GA You had made me aware that that is a criminal
offence which I wasn’t aware of prior to this
yeah.
13.07 SB In March 2010 you were on the normal Horizon
system yeah?
GA Yeah.
SB And then during that year 2010 you would have
migrated?
GA We migrated to Horizon online.
13.25 GA said they migrated around March 2010 at which
time his cash was correct as he moved cash from
one stock to another.
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15.26 SB And the cash would be moved into KK stock would it
be?
GA Yes.
SB Because yours is the one that’s short?
GA Yeah.
SB So when he’s counted some of the stock units A, B,
C for arguments sake?
GA Or even the safe whatever.
15.45 SB If it was £5,000 short at the time?
GA Whatever it was yeah.
SB You took £5,000 either from the safe or the stock
units?
GA Yeah.
SB And put into KK stock so when he counted?
GA Yeah.
SB Right so if you’ve migrated that’s the March 2010
that’s how you made your cash straight?
GA Yes.
16.02 AW Despite the fact you had somebody come to the
office to migrate it would have been after the
transfer date?
GA It was after the transfer date but I can’t
remember when it was, I really cannot remember
when it was.
17.20 GA said having been told they were only a few
pound out, when it came to the roll over period it
was a higher figure. He named Jeanna’s stock
where the loss was but said they never found
anything.
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18.35
18.59
21.20
SB
GA
SB
GA
Do you not suspect any members of your staff of
stealing?
You suspect and I used to sit there in the
evenings when I was living there for 6 months and
sit there and just, sit there and watch a DVD in
the office, replay the tapes to see if I could
pick anything up on the office, see if I can pick
anything up that you know.
Did you have CCTV behind the counter?
Yeah, well to an angle you couldn’t see perfectly
but you know you could possibly see some
indication of where it was and we had one covering
the front of the counter as well coming across to
see customers as well if anything was happening
there but I could never see anything. We had one
member of staff that left not long after, she had
had a few big losses, a few losses but she left,
we managed to encourage to leave shall we say, no
I didn’t really because there was a few big losses
but nothing was ever proved I can never prove
anything, never catch them, whoever it was. I
believe because of the value of the losses they’re
either just downright thick which I can’t believe
that, that they were all just making that many
mistakes, possible.
GA said John was the Manager, Karen was the
deputy, the other staff being Andrea, Jeanna,
Jenny, Viv, himself and Kate. These predominantly
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worked in the Post Office but himself and his wife
Kate worked mainly on the retail then worked on
the combi if they needed cover.
23.30 The interview was summarised when GA said if he
was only down by about £50 he would make good this
loss but the cash declared would still be
incorrect from the previous month.
32.00 GA said he can repay the money and went on to
say:-
32.21 GA I was screaming out for over a year for help.
Support from Post Office, Area Manager comes once
a year, quality. You’ve got Landlords breaching
Data Protection Act. Post Office breaching Data
Protection Act by acting on information they’ve
received in breach of the Data Protection Act
that’s the audit and this security thing whether
it’s classed as illegal I don’t know the right
terminology but it is, we have got grounds against
the Post Office my Solicitor has told me the
litigator has said. Now firstly we’re suing the
Landlords big time for phoning the Post Office and
stating that I was in arrears with my rent etc etc
which was a total blatant breach. We’re in the
process of dealing with that now and suing the
Landlords which will obviously enable me to have
funds to make good the losses for the Post Office.
However nothing has been able to be proved that
the first initial loss the big ones in those first
3 weeks weren’t down to the system being totally
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cocked up. It also ruined the impact of opening a
brand new all singing all dancing Post Office with
it being cocked up and not being able to do full
services which again affected my business so
you’ve got that one. Also with the figures being
wrong in the first place supplied by the Post
Office could be grounds there for, I think the
terminology is more or less sort of like being
sold a wrong product so that’s another thing that
I’m dealing with, with the Solicitor if necessary
but with the suing the Landlords which is a
blatant breach full stop it might, chance it won’t
even get to Court they’1ll settle out of Court
purely because it’s a blatant breach and Denise
Reid told me on the phone on the day of the audit
that was why the audit was done was because the
phone call from the Landlords stating that I was
in arrears and that was why the audit was done and
Denise Reid’s thing was well you know we get
information like this from thing and we are
obviously nervous which is understandable but it
was information received in breach of the Data
Protection Act and it was acted on. Now I’ve said
my peace that’s on tape let’s carry on. The money
will you know I want to pay the money back, like I
said I do not want a criminal record. My thing
was when I came in here I didn’t think I’d broken
the law, you have pointed out to me that what I
did do was steal and illegal was still illegal, I
wasn’t aware of that at the time but you’ve made
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36.07
36.57
37.30
38.30
39.09
SB
GA
SB
SB
GA
SB
me aware of that since. I want to pay back the
money I don’t want to get done for anything. I
don’t want a criminal record so I’m happy to pay
back the money. Unfortunately at present I’ve
lost everything I owned like I said before, sale
of house, all the money I get left in the money
from my Nan in her will but we are suing the
Landlords which will enable me to make good
losses.
You denied stealing any of the cash?
Yeah.
Any money belonging to Post Office Limited. You
now know it was wrong to inflate the cash?
Yes.
Again I’m not sure how far Andrew got with the
forms before?
I think we’re pretty much finished apart from one
that I’m going to have to take with me.
GA reiterates he is happy to provide bank
disclosure.
GA consents to a search of his property if
necessary.
Right I have to inform you that you may be
prosecuted. You do not have to say anything but it
may harm your defence if you do not mention now
something which you later rely on in Court.
Anything you do say may be given in evidence. Do
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40.40
GA
SB
GA
SB
GA
you wish to add anything further, clarify ay point
that’s been raised during the interview?
No not really I’ve raised the points I think that
are pertinent for the, so who does this go to now,
you send it now to the Legal Team?
Yeah it goes to our Legal Team and they will sort
of do?
Well I’ve made the points for the, to the Legal
Team that I think they should be aware of before
to help them make their decision in the fact that
everything was breach of the Data Protection Act
but aside that as far as I’m concerned you know
like I said when I came in here and I’ve said you
and I said to Denise Reid on the phone that I
haven’t taken anything it’s only losses that I
wasn’t able to put back in because the state the
business was in. I have not used any of the money
to do anything else with the business. You can
see that because I’m behind, I’m in arrears with
rent and everything else and all bank statements
and business accounts tie in with (indistinct
money going in from the (indistinct) sales into
the bank, remuneration coming in, bills going out,
everything is paper trail you can look through and
knock yourselves out with but that’s all that is.
Ok are you happy the way the interview’s been
conducted?
Yeah apart from your summary (laughs). Got to
have a little bit of a giggle at the end haven’t
you or you’ll start crying.
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Master tape seal signed on number 073555.
Interview terminated at 13.05
Explanatory notice GS019 regarding the tapes given
to GA.