POL00089671
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M109_POL_023_Record of Taped Interview Part 2.WM
Post Office Ltd
POST OFFICE LTD- CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Taped Interview
Record of Taped Interview Summary
Person interviewed:
Place of Interview:
Date of Interview:
Tape reference no.:
GRANT IAN ALLEN (GA) Exhibit No:
Number of pages: 11
Signature of interviewer producing record
19.4.12 Time commenced: 12.02
073555 Time concluded: 13.05
Duration of Interview:
Interviewing Officers: STEVEN BRADSHAW (SB) ANDREW WISE (AW)
Other persons present:
Tape counter I Person TEXT
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Usual introductions made, caution administered and explained. Forms
GS001 & GS003 completed. GA declines the presence of a Post Office
friend or Solicitor. GA confirmed the matter was not discussed during
the break.
2.50 GA I did remember one thing while I was out where we're saying about the
losses all adding up. Some of the (indistinct) losses were obviously error
correction notices that had come in have to be accepted but could not
put so that was in, it wasn't all just straight losses some were error
correction notices where green giros supposedly went missing etc, don’t
know how when they all get sent off but there you go things that like so
it wasn’t obviously that losses and all it was other error correction
notices that had been sent through to us.
5.00 SB switched off the tape at 12.07 in order to make a phone call to make
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sure they can carry on with the interview without a Solicitor as GA had
indicated he was not sure whether he wanted a Solicitor or not having
been told he had committed a criminal offence.
5.30 The interview continued at 12.31 when GA said he is happy to carry on
without a Solicitor as he will talk to one after the interview. GA
confirmed the matter was not discussed between him and AW while the
tapes were off.
7.45 GA was shown SB3 a cash declaration showing an amount of cash on
hand on the unusable line of £7,000 for stock unit KK.
8.07 SB Right is that part of the figure that?
GA Yes.
SB That includes the losses?
GA Yes.
SB So for every time you done a cash dec from March 2010 that’s what you
did you would add whatever the shortage that you couldn't?
GA Yeah yeah whatever shortage either on that or if it was smaller and it
was a round figure it might have been up on the 10 or the 20 but the
figure was.
SB That's the majority of the loss?
8.32 GA Yeah.
SB Give or take a few pound either way depending on?
GA Yeah.
8.40 GA shown SB4 a balance snapshot for KK showing cash to the value of
£17,885.
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9.03 SB So that’s how much should have been in yours but that figure is
incorrect?
GA Yes.
SB Because that includes all the losses from the previous 18 months?
GA The losses that I could not make good yeah, losses that I could not make
good.
SB Ok the next one I'm going to show you is SB5 right. Now during the
audit just under 13,000 in actual cash was the shortage?
GA Yeah.
SB You've already explained £1400's like that month’s that hasn’t been
swapped over yet and includes an amount. Now the auditor reported
that £11,705 was attributed to KK stock?
GA Yeah.
SB But you've already explained to us that’s the accumulation of all the
losses over this period of time?
GA Yeah.
SB Ok so just to finalise the point in there you'll see SB5 which is a list of,
this is taken from what's the P32 which is a report what the auditors
input their figures onto ok, that’s for each individual stock unit?
10.00 GA Yeah yeah.
SB And if you see the one for KK it’s a little bit dark at the bottom it’s
something like £6,180.00.
GA Yeah.
SB Right so are you happy that, and that’s the amount that was actually in
your stock unit?
GA Yes yeah.
SB So if we take the 6,180 from what should have been nearer 17,000, we
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arrive roughly at the £11,705.00.
GA Yes.
10.26 SB Right and that difference as previously stated is all to do with the losses?
GA Yeah JJ's was over. We did have a problem on, I remember we were
trying to find some and we said it could have been missed somewhere
so around those figures yeah.
SB Right so what would happen for argument’s sake, AA would roll into BB,
CC, DD.
GA Yeah.
SB GG HH KK JJ and then either, we'll say either John or Karen could have
been LL or MM?
GA Yeah.
SB And then one of them all the losses would roll into there and then the
following day?
GA Yeah.
SB You would take money out of your stock unit to make all the rest
correct.
GA Yeah.
SB And the one that’s always out.
GA Was mine.
11.10 SB After a trading period was KK that belonged to you?
GA Yeah.
11.20 GA was shown the last 6 branch trading statements SB6 - 11
highlighting the cash on hand figure for KK.
11.35 SB So on each trading statement and that’s working from the most recent
backwards.
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GA Yeah.
SB On there you see the cash on hand figure and the one for KK stock.
GA Yeah.
SB Ok now each time you balanced... right if you show on the front of it
where it shows the cash on hand for the branch
GA Sorry on this one yeah yeah yeah.
SB So the cash on hand on there.
GA Yeah.
SB For the first one £23,331.85p.
GA Yeah.
SB Right that cash on hand figure includes all the losses so if me and
Andrew had gone in to count your cash would we have found that
amount of money or is that amount of money incorrect?
GA No you wouldn't it would have been incorrect.
12.22 SB Yeah and then on the reverse of it see the one for KK the amount of
money?
GA Yeah.
12.27 SB And again is that the true amount of money that was in there?
GA No it wouldn't have been the true amount of money, I've already said
that.
12.38 SB And that’s the same for each of these trading statements?
GA Yes.
SB And every trading statement back to March 2010?
GA Yeah.
SB And by doing so inflating the cash you're falsifying the document and
therefore a criminal offence?
GA You had made me aware that that is a criminal offence which I wasn’t
aware of prior to this yeah.
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13.07 SB In March 2010 you were on the normal Horizon system yeah?
GA Yeah.
SB And then during that year 2010 you would have migrated?
GA We migrated to Horizon online.
13.25 GA said they migrated around March 2010 at which time his cash was
correct as he moved cash from one stock to another.
15.26 SB And the cash would be moved into KK stock would it be?
GA Yes.
SB Because yours is the one that’s short?
GA Yeah.
SB So when he’s counted some of the stock units A, B, C for arguments
sake?
GA Or even the safe whatever.
15.45 SB If it was £5,000 short at the time?
GA Whatever it was yeah.
SB You took £5,000 either from the safe or the stock units?
GA Yeah.
SB And put into KK stock so when he counted?
GA Yeah.
SB Right so if you've migrated that’s the March 2010 that’s how you made
your cash straight?
GA Yes.
16.02 AW Despite the fact you had somebody come to the office to migrate it
would have been after the transfer date?
GA It was after the transfer date but I can’t remember when it was, I really
cannot remember when it was.
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17.20 GA said having been told they were only a few pound out, when it came
to the roll over period it was a higher figure. He named Jeanna’s stock
where the loss was but said they never found anything.
18.35 SB Do you not suspect any members of your staff of stealing?
GA You suspect and I used to sit there in the evenings when I was living
there for 6 months and sit there and just, sit there and watch a DVD in
the office, replay the tapes to see if I could pick anything up on the office,
see if I can pick anything up that you know.
SB Did you have CCTV behind the counter?
18.59 GA Yeah, well to an angle you couldn't see perfectly but you know you could
possibly see some indication of where it was and we had one covering
the front of the counter as well coming across to see customers as well
if anything was happening there but I could never see anything. We had
one member of staff that left not long after, she had had a few big
losses, a few losses but she left, we managed to encourage to leave shall
we say, no I didn’t really because there was a few big losses but nothing
was ever proved I can never prove anything, never catch them, whoever
it was. I believe because of the value of the losses they're either just
downright thick which I can’t believe that, that they were all just making
that many mistakes, possible.
21.20 GA said John was the Manager, Karen was the deputy, the other staff
being Andrea, Jeanna, Jenny, Viv, himself and Kate. These
predominantly worked in the Post Office but himself and his wife Kate
worked mainly on the retail then worked on the combi if they needed
cover.
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23.30 The interview was summarised when GA said if he was only down by
about £50 he would make good this loss but the cash declared would
still be incorrect from the previous month.
32.00 GA said he can repay the money and went on to say:-
32.21 GA I was screaming out for over a year for help. Support from Post Office,
Area Manager comes once a year, quality. You've got Landlords
breaching Data Protection Act. Post Office breaching Data Protection
Act by acting on information they've received in breach of the Data
Protection Act that’s the audit and this security thing whether it’s classed
as illegal I don’t know the right terminology but it is, we have got
grounds against the Post Office my Solicitor has told me the litigator has
said. Now firstly we're suing the Landlords big time for phoning the
Post Office and stating that I was in arrears with my rent etc etc which
was a total blatant breach. We're in the process of dealing with that
now and suing the Landlords which will obviously enable me to have
funds to make good the losses for the Post Office. However nothing has
been able to be proved that the first initial loss the big ones in those first
3 weeks weren't down to the system being totally cocked up. It also
ruined the impact of opening a brand new all singing all dancing Post
Office with it being cocked up and not being able to do full services
which again affected my business so you've got that one. Also with the
figures being wrong in the first place supplied by the Post Office could be
grounds there for, I think the terminology is more or less sort of like
being sold a wrong product so that’s another thing that I’m dealing with,
with the Solicitor if necessary but with the suing the Landlords which is
a blatant breach full stop it might, chance it won't even get to Court
they'll settle out of Court purely because it’s a blatant breach and Denise
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Reid told me on the phone on the day of the audit that was why the
audit was done was because the phone call from the Landlords stating
that I was in arrears and that was why the audit was done and Denise
Reid's thing was well you know we get information like this from thing
and we are obviously nervous which is understandable but it was
information received in breach of the Data Protection Act and it was
acted on. Now I've said my peace that's on tape let's carry on. The
money will you know I want to pay the money back, like I said I do not
want a criminal record. My thing was when I came in here I didn’t think
I'd broken the law, you have pointed out to me that what I did do was
steal and illegal was still illegal, I wasn't aware of that at the time but
you've made me aware of that since. I want to pay back the money I
don’t want to get done for anything. I don’t want a criminal record so I’m
happy to pay back the money. Unfortunately at present I’ve lost
everything I owned like I said before, sale of house, all the money I get
left in the money from my Nan in her will but we are suing the
Landlords which will enable me to make good losses.
36.07 SB You denied stealing any of the cash?
GA Yeah.
SB Any money belonging to Post Office Limited. You now know it was
wrong to inflate the cash?
Yes.
36.57 SB Again I'm not sure how far Andrew got with the forms before?
GA I think we're pretty much finished apart from one that I’m going to have
to take with me.
37.30 GA reiterates he is happy to provide bank disclosure.
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38.30 GA consents to a search of his property if necessary.
39.09 SB Right I have to inform you that you may be prosecuted. You do not have
to say anything but it may harm your defence if you do not mention now
something which you later rely on in Court. Anything you do say may be
given in evidence. Do you wish to add anything further, clarify ay point
that’s been raised during the interview?
GA No not really I've raised the points I think that are pertinent for the, so
who does this go to now, you send it now to the Legal Team?
SB Yeah it goes to our Legal Team and they will sort of do?
GA Well I've made the points for the, to the Legal Team that I think they
should be aware of before to help them make their decision in the fact
that everything was breach of the Data Protection Act but aside that as
far as I’m concerned you know like I said when I came in here and I've
said you and I said to Denise Reid on the phone that I haven't taken
anything it’s only losses that I wasn’t able to put back in because the
state the business was in. I have not used any of the money to do
anything else with the business. You can see that because I’m behind,
I'm in arrears with rent and everything else and all bank statements and
business accounts tie in with (indistinct) money going in from the
(indistinct) sales into the bank, remuneration coming in, bills going out,
everything is paper trail you can look through and knock yourselves out
with but that's all that is.
40.40 SB Ok are you happy the way the interview’s been conducted?
GA Yeah apart from your summary (laughs). Got to have a little bit of a
giggle at the end haven't you or you'll start crying.
Master tape seal signed on number 073555.
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Interview terminated at 13.05
Explanatory notice GS019 regarding the tapes given to GA.