POL00113067 - Generic Disclosure Review - Schedule of Extracts of Disclosable Material Tranche 3A
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GENERIC DISCLOSURE REVIEW
SCHEDULE OF EXTRACTS OF DISCLOSABLE MATERIAL
TRANCHE 3A
Control [D of original document Document Details Extract disclosed
I 108165464 Casework Management Report forthe case I From Page I:
of sis3 I (writen by Helen
Dickimsen, Investigation Manager, and I “Following a routine audit of Bodmin Road Post Office, Rocbank Arcade, Bransholme, Hull,
dated 14 November 2003) HU7 4HE, on Tuesday the 4th November 2003, it was found that there was a total shortage
of cash of £9,831.54. Glen Morris carried out the audit assisted by Lyane Fastwood.”
“On Thursday 6th ERREMMMBartived unaccompanied at around 12:10 hours. The interview
commenced at 12:24 hours and concluded at 13:08 how:
From Page 2:
“GRREMMM stared that she received an error notice for £4,000 proper to week 12 (wie
18/06/03), which related w a remittance discrepancy. She stated that she was disputing the
error notice because at no time did she show a surplus of this amount. ERREMMblaimed
that, as she was unable to contact Ms Oglesby to discuss these maiter she decided to place the
amount into her suspense account. Shortly afierwards the office showed a shortage of around
£1,600, which she was unable to account for frem week 24. This amount was placed into her
suspense aecount in the hope that the error would correct itself. She then stated that she thea
received several calls from Chesterfield asking her to remove £5,600 from the suspense
mount had not been authorised. aimed that she was unaware
shouldn't be used in th and had used this method before when
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Record of Tape Recorded Interview of Pag
on 23 October 2003 from 13.41
to rr 22. Interviewing Officers were Cathy
Thomas and Jason Collins (2! pages)
When she attempted to remove the £5,600 from her suspense account she stated that she had
got into a tangle and when she balanced she did not show this amount as a shoriage, as she
had expected. When she checked her suspense account again she found that the amount was.
still in there. Around the same time she was experiencing a problem with the Horizon
system. She stated that the system was accumulating sales without anyone oper:
it’ These included sales of TV stamps and Postal Orders, and also sales were transferring
between screens. I asked her whether she had reported this problem and she stated that she
had contacted the Horizon Support Team who had instructed her to download Horizon and to
reboot the system. (EREEMIMI inca to have done this several times although it was thought
that the problem related to the cursors sticking down on one of the keypads. This was
replaced recently and the problem seems to have ceased. When asked whether she had
discussed this with Ms Oglesby she stated that she had propiems getting ho'd of her and had
part that cven they was telling me that I didn” t ‘put that particular suff in,
showing short since I’ve taken over the full service I have problem, it’s been on and off since
Gnaudible), cause I was suspended last year, ever since then and there are some error notices
outstanding as well which haven’t come through and there’s a shortage of thirteen thousand
pounds and I presume that’s gone somewhere along the line like that, which was put into the
suspense account and after that I have not physically taken any, not a single penny out of
there.”
108165517
Casework Management Report for the o
of & i written by Shirley
Stockdale, Investigation Manager, and
dated 2 December 2003)
From Page 2-
“Because SLOME es declaring his losses it was felt that there was no criminal intent and
that there somehow must be a procedural error taking place.
Arrangements were then made for myself and Raymond Grant to attend the taining suite at
Springburn DMB where we attempted to reconstruct the cash account for the weeks
immediately prior to the audit in an atiempt to establish what effect this practice of re-
declaring che cash at a higher value would have on the actual cash account, it was suggested
that the loss may have been inadvertently “doubled up”, however the exercise at the training
suite has disproven this and as far as enquiries have revealed to date the only ching that is sure
is that the deficit of £38,812.90 realised at audit is not as a result of any errors that we are
aware of at this time. It would appear to be missing cash for which neither of the staff or the
sub-postmasier can give any explanation.
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Examination of the cash summary enclosed at Appendix B shows that the problem balances
start as soon as the two new members of staff and ERY are left to do the balances on
their own, without the input of the more experienced clerks.
18190 attended Glasgow Mail Centre again on Wednesday 12 November 2003 where
he was interviewed further about the possible cause of these extensive losses...No further
information was forthcoming regarding an explanation for the missing money, and
SEEM continued to deny any theft.”
From Page 4:
“The subpostmaster and staff deny any theft of monies from the office, and despite extensive
enquiries we are unable at this point to establish where in the cash accounts the money has
gone missing. The fact however remains that there is almost a £39.000.00 shortage at this
office.”
_ 108005493 Memo from Juliet McFarlane to the I “In my opinion the evidence is sufficient to afford a realistic prospect of conviction of the
I Investigation Team Post Office Limited ce I above named on the charges set out on the attached Schedule. In my opinion there is a high
Gary Thomas, dated 6 March 2007, prospect of theft (sic) in relation to the false accounting matters. I have specifically charged
regarding the case of GUZK attempted theft in relation to the Inland Revenue payments as I believe this is over and above
the Defendam claims of false accounting to conceal losses. I rather suspect that she may
choose to resist this matter. However, in my opinion there is a medium prospect of success
in relation to this charge.”
108081378 Post Office Ltd Investigation Personnel I From Page 2 of 3:
report for the case of A089
(completed by Colin Price on I February A089 i reminded of the audit shortage of £16,086.15 and asked what he thought
2011) could nave happened to the missing moncy. [XGBEIMMMMM said that he believed he had a
shortage in a cash remittance received approximaicly two months before the auditors arrived.
athis branch. He added that he could not remember when the shortage occurred but thought
. the amount to be £16,000.” . _
310016547 Defence Statement of Paragraph S from page 2 of
signed and dated 05/
“The Post Office allege that £237,240.63 has been stolen from them. Obviously I deny thatl
have stolen anything but for the avoidance of any doubt, the Prosecution are put on notice
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that [ do not accept that any such sum (or any sum) has been stolen by anyone. The
Prosecution will be required to prove this loss (or any loss) at trial.”
Paragraph 18 from page 6 of 8:
“I do not accept that any appropriate at all has occurred during the relevant period and I assert
that it might be that any perceived discrepancy is the result of accounting or system error
rather than thefi.,. Therefore the prosecutor is requested to make sure that an investigation of
this data has taken place for this purpose and, if what [ assert is found to be true or might be
true, to disclose the result thereof.”
310101266
Defence Statement of
{signed and dated 18/7/12)
From Paragraph $ on Page I of 3:
“The defendant asserts that significant shortages/losses had been a common experience in the
past. Losses started to occur from 2005, The defendant had to make good a great deal of those
losses cut of her own pocket, but as the losses increased the defendant could not afford to
repay them from of ker own resources.”
Prom Paragraph 11 on Page 2 of 3:
“The defendant also prays in aid of her defence the fact that the Post Office computer system.
known as Horizon installed sometime in 2005 had been subject of criticism in the press.
310101272
Defence Statement of (undated
but stamp states 14-09-12)
From Paragraph 2 on Page 1 of 3:
“The defendant accepts that losses were showr on the Horizon computer system from 2005,
The defendant does not know how the losses were imeurred, The defendant now believes that
such losses may have shown ag a result of failures in the Horizon computer system.”
108000149
Record of Taped Interview of [&
on I November 2012 between
10. dd 11.34. Imerviewed by Glyn
Burrows and Chris Knight.
From Page 3 of 18:
KIN © ck became in my opinior
there, it took then a two count that s
In the end
there until “Ul halfé i
ted and counted and cou:
carly didn’t know what they
biem was the Olympic and paralympic stamps, some b I sheers
sheets and I totally question that £154.20 discrepancy. At no point was L
. bw
some being pa
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invited to count them with them, they were behind my counter and there is no way one earth
in my opinion would we be that far out in our stock. With regard to the rest of the
discrepancy, Pve had discrepancies behind my counter for some considerable time. Indeed 1
had a meeting with my account manager following an earlier audit this year here in this very
office where we talked about, well I was interviewed, it was recorded on tape, litle tape
machine. I was promised a copy of the tape and never got one and on thai, in that interview
we talked about the discrepancies that were happening behind my counter. I was left to go
away and carry on sink or swim. I feel badly let down to be honest. The discrepancies have
been going on for some time. I don’t fee! that I was given help, advice so I don’t know.”
From Page 5 of 18:
(GB) “So do you make, when you say a discrepancy what exactly does that mean
so I’m clear in my own mind what you mean by a discrepancy? Are you talking about ona
daily basis or are you talking about when you do the branch trading statement document, what
are you telling me about when you say you have discrepancies in your office?”
iB “Well it will appear on both and its fluctuated, sometimes it’s gone up sometimes it’s
gone down, there’s no logic to it and I’ve been tearing my hair ovt with it”?
(GB) “And what have you done about it then BYORI MmMe I] me exactly what you've done?”
[BRO EE) “Ive kept battling with it”
Baia 5 people work at the branch out of the same stock unit. He said he did consider
having single stock units and asked the auditors in May how it would work but they advised
him against it. He said he also raised this matter in his interview with his account manager
but was never advised to do it.”
From Page 6 of 18:
“(GB) So you say you fluctuate on a daily basis, just explain, give me an example of what
you're tatking about?
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(EXE cli after I declared my cash and I checked the cash variance then it differs a
differs by differing amounts and however much I try and work out why that’s the case, I've
not been able to do that”
ry the problem then he it until the next day, He said ow
branch trading days he has always made good the shortage or removed it if he has been up.”
108000261 Record of Taped Interview of
5042
EE on 22 May 2013 from
I4E to 1 . Interview conducted by I (SJ) “Ok so I'll put it over to you now, tell me what happened, wh:
Sharron Jennings and Jim Coney
From Page I of 48:
*s been going on?”
ERE Well we always used to have a delivery for the ATM on Monday, Wednesday and
Friday. On the Royal Wedding bank holiday we hada delivery, instead of them delivering all
the money on the Friday, they delivered half on the Friday and half on the Saturday and very
often the money comes in late on a Friday and into AA stock and after we close in transferred
it into ATM stock. Unfortunately we had problems with the screens, with the touch screens
and somewhere along the line I entered the money instead, I've pressed the button and the
sereen cleared and I pressed it again and double the money went into the, you know, it showed.
that P'd had 154 in not 77. 1 was in a bit of a kerfuffle because I didn’: know how to get out
of it. The same happened on the Saturday and I was, whatever I touched it seemed to increase
if you know what I mean and not fully conversant with how the system worked and wh
you, { thought I'd better leave it. §jpne of my girls I employed, she worked for the Alliance
& Leicester building society, she’d been with me for 12 years and she seemed to know more
about the running of an ATM machine than I did and [ thought well Pd best leave this because
whatever I touched, the money increased, the deficit decreased and [ thought Pd better leave
this ‘til § leomes back on Wednesday because we were shutting on the Tuesday and try
and recongile it then. We had a long look at it, we did a few reversals and what have you and
was showing me what to do or between us and [ honestly thought we'd reconciled it a
bit different and I thought that was the end of it and then when we balance at the end, I was
money out and [ just couldn't fathom out. Having had 25-30 years’ experience as an auditor,
Tthoaght you know it was such a high amount I though: this has got to be a paper transaction.
You know [ haven't had the money and it’s got to be a paper transaction. [ thought to be
bonest I though: thact would eventually, within days I would eventually find it I spent hours
and hours. I was there most hours ‘till 7, 8 o'clock tryiag to reconcile what had gone wrong,
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trying to check everything and it just wasn’t coming to light, just wasn’t coming to light and
I didn’t have an answer to it, I just couldn’t understand what had gone wrong, just couldn’t
understand what had gone wrong. In hindsight, 1 should have reported the matter straight
away. Perhaps out of vanity, too proud, I thought [ was capable of sorting it, obviously 1
wasn't.”
Page 16 of 48;
(JC) “Sa what do you think has happened to the money?”
[BO42 a haven't got a clue. If I knew if I suspected what had happened to it. You know if I
suspected I just haven’t, I honestly thought it was a paper transaction error or a fault on the
Horizon system.” __
ation ication Form
igned and daicd 1} October
I 2013
— GA_036 206001933 Letter from Jane McLeod (POL General I “The suggestion that a guilty plea to false accounting rather than theft was accepted by Post
I Counsel} io Second Sight dated 24" I Office because ”.....here was no evidence of theft” is based on a lack of understanding of
February 2015 eriminal law and the criminal law processes:
* Where an audit discloses a loss in circumstances where there is evidence of false
accounting, the fact of the loss together with the false entrie: Yeni evidence upon
which to base a charge of theft. Simply put, the fact that money is missing and the
defendant bas adjusted the figures is sufficient evidence (in accordance with the Code
for Crown Prosecutors) to found a theft charge,
* Post Office has always been prepared to avcept a guilly plea to false accounting where
theft is charged, not least because it has a duty to protect public {and its own) fiunds and,
given that both charges are equal in the eyes of the law. the added expense of going to
te an offence of dishonesty is offered weuld ofien (but noi
always) jeopardise that duty.
« Tnany event the initial suggestion that a defendant pleads guilty will com
defendant's lawyers,
guilty of that offence.
from the
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s the duty of the defence lawyers to iden the court where there is
evidence to sustain a charge. If the court agrees then the Judge
Thus a charge upon which there is no evidence will inevitab)
ismiss
GA_004 438001005 Amended Schedule of information served I Page 3:
] by BOE in the Group I “I did not find the helpline useful. I was generally advised to accept discrepancies in order to
Litigation roll ever the branch operation for the next week starting Thursday to Wednesday, put back.
shortfalls, and, if discrepancies occurred during the other working days,to wait until
Wednesday to report it as it could resolve itself by then. When discussing shortfalls with the
helpline, [ did not get the impression that others were having these problems
from the helpline. Indeed, 1 was consistently made to feel that I was the only one who was
experiencing these issues and could not work the system.
I would estimate that throughout my position in the branch, I paid (or Post Office deducied)
in exeess of £6,000,On numerous occasions, especially balancing day which fell on
Wednesdays, I had to call the helpline to ask for their help as we could not roll over as a result
of discrepancies showing and I was told to accept the figures as T would not be able to run the
office the next day if I did not, On some of these occasions 1 would put money (taken from
the retail side of the business) in to rectify these discrepancies. Initially these discrepancies
were relatively small but as they became larger I could no longer afford to rectify them in this
way.”
Page 4:
“I have seen no evidence of any adequate investigation. Iam not aware of the details of what
took place prior to Post Office staff arriving at the branch on 5 September 2005 and
terminating my appoiniment. When I arrived at the branch that day, Post Office staff had
already entered the branch and packed up a lot of documents, ete. I did not see or know how
much money they took away. All they did was present me with a piece of paper which stated
that [had a shortfall of around £50,000 but where they got this figare from I had no idea. I
was told that if I accepted the figure and was able to pay it back to them in full the case would
not be taken any further. To the extent that an investigation did take place prior to this, I do
not accept that it was adequaic. I also note that when the branch was closed I specifically
asked Posi Office staff if others were having these problems and [ was ‘old that they were not
and that it was “peculiar to fine]”.
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Page 6:
“IL did not want to plead guilty but felt that I had no other choice. I said that I took £50,000
from the accounts in three instalments: one of £10,000 and two of £20,000, in order to pay
back a loan [had taken from a relative. This was not true. I was told by Post Office, however,
that if I accepted responsibility and was able to pay it back then the case would not be taken
any further, something which did not prove to be true. Lalso did not think that I would be able
to prove that any shortfalls had been caused by Horizon as I had been convinced that I was
the only person in the UK experiencing these issues. I also thought that a guilty plea would
i . result in a quicker process and more lenient sentence.”
108026375 Record of Tape Recorded Interview with I From page 5:
97
A700 a
“He was again asked about how many books were paid that had a barcode that was not
readable. He told us that it was only a few times. He was asked to give an estimate for one
cash account week; he said that he had no idea. He was told that earlier he had said that it had
happened quite often, he was asked that if this was the case had he reported the system as not
working
A: “No, we do, We ring the horizon system.”
Q: “And how often do you ring the Horizon system’
A: “Sometimes, you know, to have, barcode doesa’t work or anything.”
“When pressed he still could not say how often he rang nor the last time he rang the Horizon
system, he was told that logs could be checked. He was asked if it was true that the majority
of books bought into his office for payment had barcodes that could be read and the only time
that the reader was not used was on those few books that had no barcode. He was asked how
many books that did have barcodes on them were manually input each week, he said that he
did not know exactly but only when the scanner would not work. He said that this happened
a few times. Again he was pressed for a figure, he told us 3 or 4.”
wd of Tape Recorded Interview with I From page 2.
15 Match 2006 “When asked fill explains that he had received an error notice for£ 10,000 during the summer
of 2005, Having processed the error notice, his next weekly balance revealed a deficiency in
the accounts of some £15,169 approximately, Bezause of his inability to repay the shortage
immediately, he arranged to carry the amount in the post office suspense account, Since then,
7708029038
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he had not made any effort to repay the money and over the months further shortages had
been incurred and figures altered to hide the discrepancies.”
From page 4:
“There is a di,
trading, whi
2006 which reveal
yn about weekly cash on hand figures and losses throughout branch
reed was not bad. Gary then referred to the audi: result of 13th March
a cash shortage of £5,419.81
Q. Any answers as to why it would have been short?
A. Na, not really, I can’t explain that at all [...]
I would like to say that at no poim have I ever taken any money out of the post office for my
own personal...” (did not finish sentence)
From page 5:
Q. Why didn’t you just show your losses each week?
A. Because I always assumed that I'd have to settie them straight away, and we haven't been
in the position of... Our private business has taken a bit of a downturn since the supermarket
next door had been selling newspapers over the last 18 months.
Q. If you have a shortage, you're supposed to settle it each week. So the situation is, you
werent able to do that. You knew if you showed it then, somebody would ring you up and
say you need to make this good.
A. Yes.
Q. Itwas buying you a bit of time really?
ally what it was.
From page 7:
During discussion §iMstates that he did not take the money and having received the later
error notice, just accepted the crror without discussing it or challenging the discrepancy. Mike
suggested that a number of enquiries could have been pursued and that it seems odd that such
a large discrepancy should be accepted so casually arces, but maintains that he has not
taken the mone:
ention and Rural Support I I have again spoken with spmr of this office, I'm rather concerned as the spmir keeps increasing
“GA_059_107062929 Area Intel
nager Visit Lo: jon to Newton,
fh intake,
10
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Burgoland branch FORE] dated 29
June 2006
“I Memo dated 23 May 2006 drafted by Juliet
ane (lawyer) to Post Office
tigation team re the investigation into
For example on the 17 June the spmr said he had 6.5K in the office his coh fig was actually
19,4$5:90 in notes therefore we increase his rem for him, Also when the spmr is challenged
abou: the amount he wants to hold he starts to get a bit agitated saying “I've been running this
office for 30 years and I've never had any problems with running until this system was put
in’.
‘Although the offender admits to inflating period of time, it appears th
subsequently declared this and was authorised to carry the amount in the accounts for some
time. He did this until just before the audit when he was then required to make the amount
good. Some time after August an additional amount of £5,000 accrued.
This case could be brought within the Guidelines on Cautioning. I have taken into account
the fact that the situation at the Office regarding losses appears to have been known about for
some time and sanctioned. The inflation of the cheques took place over a period of days and
that the loss has now been repaid.”
i 108030822
mterview — with
From page 5
Q. Could you explain to me when and how you started taking money from the Post Office?
A. Yer, 1 didn’t take any money personally or didn’t take any money for myself [...]Whea
they interviewed they conditionally offered me this postmastership, they told me I had to do
the fascia’s, I had to put new sign boards, I had to do the interior decoration I have to do
exterior decoration, everything I will get a grant. So I (inaudible) my partners and we further
invested £6,500 each which means, £6,500 of capital initially invested, only £2,400 was
repaid, paid back, the first loss
From page 6:
the first loss happened to me there. Prom thereafter, staff loses, you know staff loses
Cinaudible) something paperwork misses, cheque you know
Q. Error notices?
A, Error notices as well, about sir you wouldn’t believe it you can check in the Post Office
abou: £20,000 worth of money 1 lost there
Q. What through errors?
A. Through errors
Q. And staff mistakes?
11
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A. And the staff mistakes, £20,000
From page 9:
Thad a heart attack so I had to give the keys to somebody else and I was in the hospital and
wher I came back there was some money missing.
Q. What the office wasn’t balancing is that what
A. Yer, office wasn’t balancing
Q. By how much?
A. About £25,000 was missing
From page 11:
Q. So you're telling us that you’ve not physicaily not taken any money
A. Any money
Q. Out of that account to pay bills, to pay mortgages
A.No, nothing
108030823 Record of Taped Interview with I From page 4:
I 72 Q.Yer so where did you get the rent money from, did you take the rent money from the Post
: Office to pay?
A. Yer
Q. so you did take money from the
A. Yer, LL yee, Pm not hiding
From page 6:
Q. Yer but from January to where we are today in August, you took out roughly £32,00 in
cash
A. Ivis net from January as I told you it is not from January. It is an accumulated since 1
bought this Post Office, the business has lost is running on loss
tod
No, the general losses I've been, I remember that I told you [ been putting money inside the
Post Office, the general losses
bed
what I'm saying is because of that it is been accumulated it is unseen, You can’t see that. I
was covering, covering, covering at a certain period I could not do, I could not help myself
12
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From page 8:
Q. Sorry can you give me a specific date of when this started?
A. Since it is my accumulation of the shortage
Q. Yer
A. Or what is the term, what is the word, invisible shortage
Q. Right
A. Which I was covering from myself out of the pocket
Q. Yes
A. Was happening since I took over the this Post Office
Q. Right
Q.1 paid about 20,000 shortage error notice and staff shortage. you can check it. There will
ben yer,
From page 4:
ded Interview with
Record of
SECM 1 Jonary 2007
1108029727
Q.What, that as I said, that transaction wasn’t entered on the Horizon computer system and
there's no office copy of that transaction anywhere, so what’s happened to the copy that the
customer's presented to you
A. don’t know what to say
Q. Tell me the truth
A. Tam, don’t know what to say
Q. When you say you don’t know what to say, what do you mean
A. Well you’re saying where is the copy, I’m saying I don‘t know where it is
Q. Right, OK, why wasn’t it entered on the Horizon system
A. Pve entered every moneygram I’ve done on the Horizon system
From page 7:
Q. [...] not twice but seven times not entered on Horizon, no conesponding surpluses, and no
paperwork. It’s not a mistake is it, this is something deliberate
A.No
From page 8:
Q.You stole the money didn't you
13
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Q. That’s exactly what you've done, I don’t believe you, you stole that money, you don’t
make errors like that
AI didn’t steal the money
Q.So what happened to it
ki
- 108032254
“T Record of Taped Interview with
GRWZA 2). 22 January 2007
Q. So you were having shortages each week?
A. yes, quite bad ones, I didn’t know how to, how to, I didn’t want to leave it all showing
ermm on the, the cash account , trading statement and that. So I'd show some of it and at first
it was ok and the next week I'd put the rest in. Sorry the next month put the rest in and then 1
just know, it got a lot on further months
Q. Ok when did it start?
A. About nine, nine, then months ago
Q. ok and what was the shoriage?
A. it started with a really bad short for the first time just before Christmas last year, which
was jus! over a £1,000 then as well,
Pdivas asked when this current set of shortages began ffijsaid just after that but she never
really had any problems with shorts until the first one and they came “fast and furious after
that".
From page 5:
“DM explained that on the audit repor vas asked to count the cash and verify the cash,
GMBididn’t count it but knew that there was £7,000 short andiivas asked how she knew it
was £7,009 short?
because I was adding it on, to cover it over because I couldn’t afford it
DM explained that every week or every month on the wading period, Mijvas having a
substantia! loss and overed up the majority of it and shown a percentage of it as a loss
and was asked what she did with the rest
14
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yes, added it on to the cash”
From page 7:
“SB explained ¢
stil! 7,000 short
or one big loss
Ks rolling ones
how much on average was it each week?
you can see for yourself there, it wasn’t an average each week it was up and down like a
yo yo
she had said that she was putting money in each week and the losses where
asked how much was the original loss and if these were rolling losses
d of Taped view
(WHA 2/2). 22 January 2007
7708032255
Page 6:
Q. have you stolen that money
Ano
Q. Do you suspect anybody else of stealing that money
A. Pm not sure
Page 7:
SB asked if she suspected anybody in the branch §feplied that she would rather not say.
SB remindedfffof the caution and the purpose of the imerview Mifjvas asked again whom
she suspected. She replied yes and said]
Page 8:
Q. you have no explanation for the shortages, you do suspect one member of staff
A. yes
I : ¢ Tape Recorded Interview with I From pp3-4:
108079228 11 May 2010
Q. Ok so somebody's come along from the Post Office to do a, wo migrate you as they call it
av and when they did up your cash check and the balance they found that there was a
shortage of £16,267.66p is that correct?
A. That’s right.
Q. Ok in your own words then explain to us why there’s a shortage of that amount of money?
15
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A. [can't sort of give (indistinct) shortage itself [mean I know for certain that my wife and I
haven't touched any money from the till from the Post Office money as well I mean we
haven't touched anything from there and I mean I did tell the chap when he came in there’s a
shortage of so much on there anyway when the chap from migration came in
Q. Right why’s there a shortage on there then?
Az I don’t know I can’t explain that really I mean [’ve sort of gone back and I’ve sort of
thought really hard and so has my wife to see if they’ve made any calculation on the error
somewhere but we can’t sort of come up with a logical answer.
pp.6-7:
Q.1f Pm absolutely honest with you ok, you know cases like this seem to be people that have
needed a little bit of Post Office money to keep the business gcing or a bit of a cash flow
problem and they've taken a bit at a time and it's built up. it happens it happens all the time
ok we see it every week and that’s more of a line of what this looks like has been happening
at your office, is that what’s been happening?
A. No no ‘cos I have got a pretty sound business
Q. So you've got a £16,000 loss that’s appeared you say you haven't taken it, you say your
wife hasn’t taken it, nobody else has got access to that cash?
A.No.
“BRSOONNITTTIO
Letter to Elaine Ridge (Area Contracts I Ina letter arguing for her cco EERE
Manager) from Bi03 daied 6 I “I had contacted the Post Office regarding problems with the Horizon system as long ago as
September 2010 2008, In July 2009, I had an interview with Carol Bailan regarding these discrepancies but
no help was offered. If I had received assistance at this stage , 1 believe we may have nipped
the problem in the bud, Later, three different auditors came at different dates, yet instead of
helping me resolve the problem, they simply showed me how to do the balance, which was a
separate issue and which 1 did not request.”
BRS000039 1811 Fujitsu Post Office Account Weekly I “There are 7 branches with no online services, no secondary Comms (last period 6)
Report WE 08/01/12 There ave 9 open calls for branches with service impacting intermittent faults / no secondary
Cems (last period 3).°
/ BRS0000386609 Document attached to email on 02/02/2012 I “Software probiem on balances - This is the first time we have been aware of this issue and
from Antonio Jamasb to Dave Hulbert and
others, entitled “Dear ERR:
looks like a possible problem that needs to be resolved asap. We would request that an
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incident is raised via the Horizon service desk outlining the issue and I will ensure that it is
dealt with the upmost urgency”,
108077915 Record of Taped Interview with From page 4:
] 21 23 November 2009. Q. But you're an experienced counter clerk you’ve had 4 years experience.
A. Yeah well yes it still didn’t make sense though, that was the whole point it didn’t make
sense it didn’t make sense it never made sense when I was short and when I was over, ever.
Q. But a small discrepancy £100 maybe whatever you can think well maybe you'd made a
mistake yeah bat 40,000.
A. Or 20,000 or 35,000.
Q. That’s aot a mistake that has got to be somewhere.
A, Exactly it’s got to be somewhere.
iS)
Page 14:
Qt
no idea you tell me, how do you lose £41,000?
my, this is my thought as well why you know it’s like [know you say eh it was
25,000 well obviously it was ‘cos that’s what I declared I don’t remember.
Q. Do you suspect any of the staff of taking the money?
A. Na, 20 no way.
Page 21:
Q. Ok GERBMMI!’ mn just going to summarise what’s happened here then. Basically initially
you said around the end of July 2009 you when balancing had a discrepancy in the till, initially
you said £40,000 but you've since said that that may have been less than 40,000 it’s
figure that you recall. Since that time on a weekly balance you’ve been inflating the cash on
hand to cover the loss?
A. Yes.
Q. You haven't toid anybody about this and nothing's come to light?
A.No.
Q. The loss is now up to just under 41,000 and you can’t think of an explanation of where
that missing cash may be. You said you haven't stolen any money belonging to the Post
Office.
A.No [haven’t.
Puge 22:
Q. Yeah and you have no idea where the money’s gone you haven't
17
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stolen it and you don’t suspect any of your members of staff at the °
office have stolen it either?
A.No Ido not.
BRS000039 1726 Post Office spreadsheet of Monthly Service I Sheet “GET report”:
Management Performance Measures - I Cell A16 - “Horizon Online availability was excellent during January, with the exception of
January 2012 a short network ofa short network outage on the 27th that affected a small number of branches
in the northern counties and Scotland. The incident lasted around 15 minutes and was resolved
prior to opening time, with minimal impact on customer service.”
Sheet “Focus Metrics Monthly Graphs”:
Cell BS - “Following investigation by Fujitsu, Logica and Ingenico the root cause of a long
outstanding problem with missing data within POLSAP, was identified as out of range dates
which failed the Credence validation (in excess of 99 days). Ingenico has corrected the data
and P&BA has advised that the mismatches have been cleared within the accounts. A
permanent preventative measure is now being developed by Ingenico."
© 108068089 Record of Taped interview with BE From page 3:
7 June 2007. “ED asked fii@ito explain what problems she had been experiencing. MBM stated that she had
experienced constant losses since the combi & fortress positions were installed eptember
2005, fl stased that she had first put the losses down to mistakes especially with Bi94 I
being new to iffpelieved that they would eventually receive transaction comee and
knew that these were processed slowly. Afier several months she had become increasingly
worried and had tried to put things in place to check that Eeywas working correctly. EY
stated that she could not identify the problem and had called the Helpline on several occasions
for advice G¥E¥biated that she had also asked for advice from fellow Postmasters who had
suggested that it may be a member of staff stealing ptated that she had no proof for this.”
From page 5:
“BRM ated that she had contacted the Helpline on several occasions stating that she was having
losses and asking for help in identifying them. HD asked wh .
that she had asked for Rachel Oyston, Bus Development Manager to
that she had mei Ms Oyston previously when the office was being refities
Ms Oyston had suggested putt her own in the fortress position so thalifcould
keep a cleser watch on her. IRB: taicd that she had informed Ms Oystoa that this wasn’t a
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viable option due to the position being unsuitable. 32 ens? ated that she had started to
check transactions & transaction corrections and had asked the Helpline for a trainer to visit
the office. Brian Marshall had visited the office on two or three consecutive Wednesdays. He
hadn't noticed
anything untoward that had helped”
From page 7:
Q. So what do you think has been happening then?
A. Lhonestly don’t know. It all points to it walking out of the shop with RARE 1 all points
to that
“108176961 Sia of Taped interview RaA 187 I From page I:
7 June 2007.
Q. Do you think it is something that has facilitated a bit of confusion, the set up as it is
now. Before was it just a lock up little Post Office.
A. Possibly yes. you know with the way that the balancing was done, it changed slightly as
well. The way things were routed on the computer was slightly different. But yes, possibly
there may have been a bit of confusion at first but since then I don’t think so, no.
Q. So there is no reason why it shouldn't work
A. There’s no reason why it shouldn’t work no, that is why I sought help so many times
because none of it makes any sense, I don’t see why I could balance before but then go from.
that point to a combi position and suddenly it doesn’t work
Prom page 3:
Q. Did you know that it was wrong to put ina false figure?
A. Oh yes. I was well aware of it but I didn’t know what else to do, I didn’t know how else
to solve it, [ was hoping I would get a transaction correction back and it would adjust that
figure and it would sort itself out or 1 would find out what it was 1 was doing wrong. But as
time has gone on it has gone out of control and I have not been able to do anything.
Q. Did you consider what you were doing to be dishonest?
A. Yes, you know I was worried all of the time about an auditor coming in and the
consequences of i, But without geting any help and without getting any advice of what 1
could do to solve the problem I didn’t know what else to do. Because financially wise and
i ¢ Tam not i ition wo put the money i
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Q. So basically you were inflating the cash figure because you simply couldn’t put the money
back in
A. Yes
BRS0000059156 Spreadsheet entitled "Post Office Limited I From sheet entitled “Threats Register”
- Enterprise Risk Register” attached to
email from Steve Allchorn to Dave Row 5 describes a “threat” that “Credence live and test systems are out of step”.
Hulbert and others sent 02/11/2012 at The entry in the “cause” column notes "Reference Data does not reflect the 100% live picture
17:09. with regards to new developments.”
The entry in the “consequence” column notes "Testing Credence (and other) developments i
may not reflect the new developed state, will give a false picture and may need testing in live
to get the actual sign off.”
This “threat” was given an “impact” rating of 2 and a “likelihood” rating of 2
The “mitigation plan column” contains the entry that “Dave Hulbert initially to better
understand the situation”
Row 6 describes a “threat” that “IT Hardware within branches will soon start to fail because
of the age of the kit. Particularly Horizon Base units and associated peripherals, Monitors and
Paystation units
The entry in the “cause” column notes "The equipment is now very old and needs urgent
replacement. The business has not had the money to invest in a hardware replacement
programme over the past few years, We currently have no equipment refresh programme or
clear Programme within the IT Strategy”
The entry in the “consequence” column notes “Equipment failure within branches reducing
counter availability and consequently decrease trading hours. This will lead to reduced sales,
increased complaints and supplier costs (large) due to an increase in MTBF. Possible Service
Credits to be paid to client”
This “threat” was given an “impact” rating of 3 and a “likelihood” rating of 2.
The “mitigation plan column” contains the entry that “Close management of MTBF Reports
to pick up any early indication of any degradation in performance of equipment. Feedback to
IT & Change of the need to replace equipment and include in IT Strategy Opportunity should I
we move from an NT based solution that would allow plug and play. Link to Network
Transformation”
Row 7 describes a “threat” of “Horizon system failure over a long period of time”.
20
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The entry in the “cause” column notes “Central hardware or software not being available.”
The entry in the “consequence” column notes “a more inefficient and ineffective T&Change
working process. Lack of measurements to show improvements and efficiencies. Not being
able to achieve quicker to market and right first time goals”
This “threat” was given an “impact” rating of 4 and a “likelihood” rating of 1
The “mitigation plan column” contains the entry that “Huge amount of mitigation features
built into Horizon to provide resilience. Hardware failure nationally covered by resilience.
Software failure often limited in impact e.g. AP transactions only. SRRCs reviewed every six
months with Fujitsu to look at single point of failures. Action Owner is Lesley Sewell. This
isongoing’
BRS0000387821 Email sent on 02 March 2012 at 10:]6am I Hi Dave
I by Marilyn Stoddart [NFSP] to Dave
Hulbert [POL IT] subject: RE: Horizon Thanks for this initial response Dave, I agree that a Horizon conversation needs to feature in
outage Ist March (earlier emails in the both meetings on Wednesday, We haven't received any agendas yet and it would be useful to
chain have already been disclosed: have these today if possible. Presumably there are actin point updates to be circulaed as well?
BRSO000387846) 1 will be a series of meetings in London from Sunday onwards through until Wednesday and
will be able to pick up emails but not necessarily turn them into hard copy for the rest of the
team - so I might need some documents faxed to hotels if they come in next week, 7
I can give you a call as needs be. One further item we would like to see included in the
Operations agenda is ‘Duplicate reports and receipis on Horizon’. It is a P&BA
issue that Andy Winn and I have already discussed in some detail so he knows what lies
behind it.
Regards
L Marilyn
I BRS0000387792 Mecting Minutes: Monday 23" Jan 2012 - I Item 3 of the Minutes - PCI Audit
I PCI Project Board Meeting
“CGP is concerned that Pujitsu are not being open with regards to their audit
Concerns”
Item 4 of the Minutes ~ Post & Go and Paysiation staus
Po 30 ~ There is a risk in Post & Go in thai data can be compromised between
the time the card is entered and read and the payment software is enabled to
21
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secure the card data. There is known mitigation for the issue - Deploy a newer
version of the Commidea Sofiware ~ Ocius Sentinel, instead of the Ocius for PC
currently deployed. Sentinel will secure the environment before the card is read,
thus eliminating the risk identified. This issue could affect PCI compliance and may
be highlighted by the QSA. CGP has e-mailed Adrian BHATT (dated 30/11/11)
asking questions about risk assessments being conducted (no response received to
date) in respect of the new sofiware and its PCI compliance status. It appears Post
& Go V2 has gone through the gating process without PCI issues being highlighted.
DMK is in discussion with Adrian Bhatt.
“This issue is deemed to be a minimal risk in terms of affecting PCI compliance
TBRSO000
Email from Dave Hulbert to Lesley J “As discussed, given that we’ve now had 3 major incidents on Horizon in quick succession,
Sewell at 17:09 on 1 March 2012 with 1 acknowledge that there’s a declining confidence in the service.
subject “Horizon - independent review”
To address this I've proposed an independent review of the service to James. He’s in
agreement with this, but wants to discuss it with Stephen before coming back with any details.
It’s almost certain that Fujitsu will want to avoid an external review and I’d agree as this takes
more lime to set up and comes with a lot of baggage around non-disclosures cic,
However, in order to ensure it has a greater level of independence than just another Fujitsu
Exec from another account, we agreed that it should be done jointly with an SLP level person
from Post Office. I feel it would be more beneficial still if this could be someone from outside
of IT&C. Whether this is another member of Mike’s lead team, or a member of Kevin
Gilliland’s team or another directorate, is your call.
James and I will discuss details of this over the next two days, and we’ll need to agree scope
as well as personnel.”
I BRS0000321777 Weekly Service Management Performance I “ATM cash disputes ~ there is a workshop this week involving Service Management,
Measures — Week Ending 18 March 2012 I Security, P&BA and Network to identify gaps in process when there are cash disputes from
customers no receiving their money, branches disputing balance figures and outstanding
L reconciliations between Post Office and Bank of Ireland.”
I BRS0000320036 Spreadsheet entitled "Post Office Limited I From sheet entitled “Threats Register”
~ Enterprise Risk Register" attached to
email sent on 13 April 2012 from Jaki Row 9 describes a “threat” that “Credence live and test systems are out of step”.
22
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Purser to Neil Lecky-Thompson, Andy The entry in the “cause” column notes "Reference Data does not reflect the 100% live picture
Jones, Andy Holt, Steve Rogers, Sieve with regards to new developments.”
Allchorn, Simon Baker, Dave Hulbert and I The entry in the “consequence” column notes "Testing Credence (and other) developments
Tain Patterson. may not reflect the new developed state, will give a false picture and may need testing in live
to get the actual sign off.”
This “threat” was given an “impact” rating of 3 and a “likelihood” rating of 4
The “mitigation plan column” contains the entry that “Dave Hulbert initially to better
understand the situation”
Row 12 describes a “threat” that “IT Hardware within branches will soon start to fail because
of the age of the kit. Particularly Horizon Base units and associated peripherals, Monitors and
Paystation units.’
The entry in the “cause” column notes " The equipment is now very old and needs urgent
replacement. The business has not had the money to invest in a hardware replacement
programme over the past few years. We currently have no equipment refresh programme or
clear Programme within the IT Strategy”
The entry in the “consequence” column notes " Equipment failure within branches reducing
counter availability and consequently decrease trading hours. This will lead to reduced sales,
increased complaints and supplier costs (large) due to an increase in MTBF. Possible Service
Credits to be paid to client.”
This “threat” was given an “impact” rating of 2 and a “likelihood” rati:
The “mitigation pian column” contains the entry that “Close manage!
to pick ap any early indication of any degradation in performance of equipment. Feedback to
IT & Change of the need to replace equipment and include in IT Strategy Opportunity should
we move from an NT based solution that would allow plug and play. Link to Network
Transformation”
7138000883 Document entitled “Post Office Ltd ~ “Name of Defendant: AUS
I Progress Report™ Post Office: Winalton Post Office
Charges: Two counts of Theft s.1(1) Theft Act
There was a cash discrepancy of £33,142.96 in period 4 and another discrepancy of £5434.93
uncovered in the September audit, She denied theft and false accounting and cast doubi on
i y of the Horizon system blaming it for the error, She could not explain the
23
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shortages as she hadn’t done anything incorrectly. She could not explain the £33,142.96
shortage in Period 4. She is the only person with keys to the shop and office.”
138001658 rom Jarnail Singh to Hugh “Hugh Remainder [sic] to speak with Susan and Alwen and get confirmation of what we
I gion dated 13 July 2012 spoke about ; limited term of reference of second [sic] and it does not touch Horizon as it
RE: Def sols is proven system [sic] and is being used up and down the country when challenged
raising Horizon investigation in criminal courts it has been successfully defended.
Thanks
Jarnai’.”
138001543 Defence statement served in the case of R Paragraph 4:
Undated “The defendant was also aware that the balances at the Post Office were not always correct.
tadata: 20 July 2012 He believed there to be a problem with the operation of the Post Office Systems, including
the Horizon system,”
Addendum defence siaiement served in the I Paragraph 4:
case of Undated “For the avoidance of any doubt, therefore, the Defence reiterate that:
4. The Defendant believes there were problems with the way in
a. which the Post Office systems, including the Horizon system, were operating;
b. The Defendant therefore believes that the records produced by those systems are not
necessarily reliable;
¢, The Defendant was not given sufficient raining on the Pos! Office systems;
_ d. The Defendant found the systems complicated and difficult to un nd. .
BRS0000326071 Excerpt from spreadsheet — entitled I “On Monday 20/08/2012 at 14:57 the Northern Ireland Electricity company experienoed
“Monthly Service Management I two major incidents ai two power stations, one of which affected the mains power supply
Performance Measures ~ August 2012" I to the Fujitsu data centre. Branch services were fully restored by 15:40. The supplier is
sent by email dated 13 September 2012 I working to review all devices hosted at the data centre affected by the power disruption to
Martin Drake to Lesicy Sewell and Gina I determine the impact and any remedial action required."
ied to various othe:
_ BRSON00306
380014 Let nt defence solicit 1 ’ i
court in the case of 26 I systems, in particular the “Horizon’ system, is in issue, and requests various items of
September 2012 disclosure. As at the time of writing, no response to those requests has been received. We
have in the meantime conducted our own investigations, and are aware that we are not the
only people challenging the reliability of the Post office accounting systems. In particular,
we are aware of:
A Parliamentary review into the operation of the Post Office systems;
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Other cases in which the Post office systems have been challenged by sub post masters
accused of thefi or false accounting:
An independent review, commissioned by the Post Office itself, into a number of individual
cases raised by MPs and the law firm Shoosmiths;
In the light of those matters, the lack of any disclosure from the Post Office in response to
our client’s defence statement is particularly surprising. We have sent a request for
I disclosure under section 8 CPIA as a result,
» 138000604 Witness statement of David Andersen I “Whilst my team were checking stocks I would print off various Horizon reports, one of
I (POL) dated I July 2011 these being the outstanding transaction corrections report as at the 11th February 2010
which I now produce as exhibit DCA/01. This report showed that Enfield Post Offices
had 27 outstanding transaction corrections which are listed within this report. As a result
of this report I had to process and accept these corrections onto the Horizon “BM” stock
unit (which is an abbreviation for Branch Manager). Only by avcepting these corrections
could I derive an accurate audit figure. However, whilst processing these I did notice that
one of the 27 corrections for an amount of £98,100.91 had been issued as a credit and 1
was not satisfied that this was correct. [ then contacted Neil Stewart, Field Support Advisor
who had been responsible for raising these corrections. He was able to confirm over the
phone that this particular correction should have been issued as a debit against Enfield Post
Office® and not a credit,”
BRS0000332122 Weekly Service Management Performance I “Service Management have been constantly challenging Wincor on the performance of
Measures- Week Ending 21 October 2012 their hardware at individual branches. This week an engineer is to monitor the 2 kiosks at
Durham Crown Office as the branch has suffered unexplained losses when attempting to
reconcile Sales Reports against Transactional Acknowledgements and them giving change
to customers in excess of what they have actually paid into the machine for goods or
services Le £1 in for a 60pence stamp resulting in several pounds of change dispensed to
the customer, along with the stamp. Investigations are ongoing to identify any other
I _ branches experiencing similar issucs. __
7738002293 Defence statement of EQ “He does not know whether anyone else had committed the frauds or whether the Horizon
December 2012 software is at fault since it is notoriously [sic] within the industry for producing misleading
balances and other discrepancies”
“There have been so many complaints about the Horizon software that it is currently being
investigated as a result of questions being asked in Parliament. The prosecution must
provide all details of complaints about the software and the current enquiry.”
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108181
Report re the investigation into
29 May 2007.
“In summary, during interview admitted that he had stolen approximately
£3,000.90 of lottery takings since 2007, by way of cutting off the Camelot receipts
that need reconciling with the Horizon ¢ ly in the day, and then any sales transactions
made on the Camelot till after thal time, was stolen by
The actual loss to Post Office Lid in this case is £10,177.00. This is broken down as follows:
On-line lotiery sales £8,027.00 - (Evidence available + Admissions made)
Lottery Prizes £710.00 - (No evidence available at present)
Instanis £1,440.00 - (No evidence at present + denied during interview)”.
» 138001460
Report relating to the investigation inte
ES 21 November 2011
From page 5:
“During the interview EIQ denied she had ever actually taken the money the night
before the audit as she had previously advised but now produced a large document regarding
an ongoing enquiry by Shoo-smith’s Solicitors in respect of the Justice for Postmasters
Alliance siating that she believed that the Posi Office® Horizon equipment was the actual
cause of this loss, She said she had only admitted to taking the money to the auditors at the
time as she was upset and would have said anything at that time when shut in a room with 2
men that she did not know. EQQESURMMMM continued that she was there all day long and not
allowed out and felt very intimidated and stated she wou'd have said anything to get herself
out of the situation. She contimed that she did not aciually take the money but knew there
was actually going to be money missing. EYQRIG said she had wrote out a cheque the
night before which should have more than covered any shortages and even paid her some
money back as there should have been a surplus in the accounts,”
BRS0000324196
Spreadsheet entitled ““Weekly Service
Management Performance Measures -
Week Ending 61 January 2012"
Sent as attachment to email dated 5 January
2012 from Martin Drake to Diane Martey
and Lesley Sewell (Ce’d to Steve Allcharn,
Steve Rogers, David Gray, Andy Jones,
Chris Taylor, Simon Baker, Andy Holt,
Doug Warwick, Kevin Brothwood, Debbie
Jones, Alison Haskell, Dave Hulbert, Tom
Fitzgerald, Tim Green, Andrea Harwood,
Matt Sadier, Tom Pitkethly, Mark Weaver,
Lawrence Addison, Eszter Meszaros, Jeff,
Spreadsheet sets out performance and availability metrics across various POL IT systems
such as ATMs, Credence and Horizon and details performance issues or problems.
Sheet “Weekly Dashboard Data” Cell BS.
"The Horizon Availability figure was 97.75% last week above both the stretch and contract ual
SLA targets. Slightly down on the previous week due to an incident in the TalkTalk domain,
which resulted in a short outage of 4 minutes for $0% branches whilst comms switched ov: or
to the resilient connection."
Sheet “Weekly Dashboard Data” Cells BI6S and BROS:
“A problem with Horizon data load resulted in 1 hour batch overrun on Friday, A severity 1
incident has been raised with IBM to investigate the root cause."
26
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Burke, Graham Hill, Neil Lecky-
Thompson, Chris Cowan, Richard Walker,
Jaki Purser and David Hall).
27