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Arbuthnot/Letwin preparation meeting
Date: 10° May 15:00-15:45
Location: Rod’s Office
Attendees: Angela Van-Den-Bogerd; Chris Darvill; Jarnail A Singh; Lesley J Sewell; Rod Ismay; Simon Baker; Susan Crichton
Dialin: I. Chairperson passcode: 26068920 then # Participant passcode: 72815381 then #
Agenda:
1. Review Outstanding Actions
2. Review Potential Questions
3. Review both cases
4. Review draft agenda — confirm attendees, agree what slides if any are required for the meeting.
1. Review Outstanding Actions
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1. Jo Hamilton Case
1.1 I Complete a summary document showing the timeline of events for the Hamilton case Chris
1.2 I Training records — we need evidence that counters the accusation that she wasn’t properly training -eg I Chris/Jarnail
she waived the requirement for training when she become the sub-postmaster in 2003 as she had been
the
1.3 I Cash holdings — we need a graph or spreadsheet showing the cash holding trend. Also compare with the I Rod
Post Office after Jo Hamilton. Plus Post Offices of similar size.
1.4. I Do we know why there are significantly lower cash holdings on three dates Rod
1.5 I Can we get the transfer audit when Jo Hamilton took the office over (may be in the criminal file) Chris/Jarnail
2. Tracy Ann Merritt Case
2.1 Complete a summary document showing the timeline of events for the Merritt case Chris
2.2 We need to determine how much detail we can go into the Letwin case as the summons has not yet
been service. If we can’t wee need to set expectations with Alice and Oliver Letwein.
3. Other Actions
3.1 I Simon to Email out Deloittes presentation Simon
3.2 I Complete responses potential questions — see below Angela / Simon / Rod
3.3 _I Simon to draft some bullet points to illustrate that horizon built on principles of reliability and integrity Simon
3.4 I Agree what slides, if any, we need to produce slides for the meeting All
2. Potential Questions
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Ques Who Answer
Why are we considering Deloittes I Lesley KPMG are excluded as they are Fujitsus’ auditor
to perform the audit? E&Y are excluded as they Post Office’s auditor
PWC are not recommended because not on Post Office’s supplier short list, although
this could be bypassed if required.
Deloittes are on Post Office’s supplier short list and have proven experience in this
area
The audit could cost inthe region I Lesley The audit envisioned is a thorough end-to-end review of processes, systems and data
of £250-£500k, why so expensive? which not only could reveal potential improvements but could be used as an assurance
for court future cases. The cost is a result and thoroughness of the audit and the
expertise required. An alternative, reduced scope audit could also be considered.
Why are crown staff and sub-post_ I Angela Needs some an explanation.
masters treated differently if
found committing fraud
What is our view of Computer Lesley Simon to draft a response
Weekly
As we have external and internal experts available we don’t believe Computer Weekly
can assist us in this specific case. However we will be engaging Computer Weekly as
part of our IT Transformation communication plan, and will pick up any Horizon related
matters through that forum.
If when suspected of fraud we bar I Angela/Rod I We need to better understand the process after a finding of fraud and what support is
sub-postmasters from the system,
how can they be expected to
prove their case?
in place for the sub-postmaster to explain their position
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6 I Does the system allow sub-
postmasters to understand why
errors occurred, eg can they
interrogate past transactions?
Rod
Yes, they can go back at least a month
Is there an issue with training?
Sub-postmaster should do a cash balance every day so shouldn’t a surprise at the end
of the month
3. Review both cases
o What are the key points for both cases?
o Dowe need anything further for these cases?
o Suggest we set-up a rehearsal on Friday or Monday?
4. Review Draft Agenda
Attendees: James Arbuthnot, Oliver Letwin, Alice Perkins, Paula Vennells, Susan Crichton, Alwen Lyons, Lesley Sewell
Case review additional Rod Ismay, Angela Van-Den-Bogerd
attendees:
Agenda Item Who Duration Key Messages
Introductions
Lead by: Alice
5 mins
Thank you for coming today
People round the table are....
We understand you have raised some concerns, and are
representing the concerns of sub-postmasters in your areas
We are open to feedback and we will provide you the
information we have available, we hope you will find us
open and transparent
Post Office Background
Lead by: Paula
5 mins
Start off by providing you an overview of the Post Office
11,800 branches
X num er of agency branches run by x number of sub-
postmasters
Pre x number of transactions each day
Supported by a helpdesk (available x days a week) who
provide telephone support for sub-postmasters, field
support teams who provide on site support and P&BA who
provide central accounting support
Horizon is the system used in branch to process counter
transactions and branch accounting
Although we recognize that Horizon is not perfect, no
computer systems is, it has been audited by internal and
external teams, it has also been tested in the courts and no
evidence of problems found (of the nature suggested by
JFSA)
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Horizon - Background
Lead by: Lesley
5 mins
Horizon first deployed over fifteen years ago to automate
the branch accounting activities
An upgraded version of Horizon was deployed 2 years ago.
Both versions of Horizon were built on the same principles
of reliability and integrity. Some features include:
o x
Oo xX
Although we recognize that Horizon is not perfect, no
computer systems is, it has been audited by internal and
external teams, it has also been tested in the courts and no
evidence of problems found (of the nature suggested by
JFSA)
Training — Background
Lead by: Paula
5 mins
Run through the recruitment / training process from
beginning to end. Key points:
o. Classroom training followed by on site support
o Help desk support available at all times
o Onsite support available on request
o. Contract is available to the sub-postmasters before
they sign it. Key points are specifically reviewed
Effectiveness of training is independency assessed
co What we are do to improve our processes
°
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Introduction to case
review
Lead by: Susan
2 mins
°
Occasionally we do get incidents of fraud.
Process?? Eg, audit, internal review, interview, if cant be
resolved then dismissal for crown staff, court for sub-
postmasters (need to explain why)
Public money, important protected.
Direct xx into the next meeting room.
6a
Review Jo Hamilton Case
— South Warnborough
branch
Lead by: Angela
(Alice, Lesley &
Rod)
20 mins
Run through timeline of events. Key facts:
°
ooo°0o
°
Cash holdings
Training received
Audit findings
She was in personal financial difficulties
She was provided an opportunity for an explanation
She did plea guilty to fraud
6b
Review Tracey Merrick
Case - Yetminster branch
Lead by: Susan
(Paula & Alwen)
20 mins
Run through timeline of events. Key facts:
°
Produces a cheque for £9,500 when audited,
explaining that she had removed cash of that value
the previous night after declaring her cash balance
on Horizon
A further shortage of £3,500 was also found at her
outreach branch
The cheque for £9,500 bounces
Miss Merritt has said transactions were being done
after she had been excluded from the system. There
is no evidence of this, however, events that would
have been done are the balance following audit and
the remittance of the remaining cash back to the
cash centre.
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Conclusion and next steps
Alice
10 mins
What are your thoughts on the meeting? Do you have any
areas of concern?
We are considering commissioning an independent audit as
an assurance measure, but in light that there is no evidence
that there is a problem, we need to determine if this is a
good use of public money.
What are your thoughts?
Next steps?
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