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POST OFFICE LTD- CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Taped Interview
R d—of-Taped—tnt: ij Summ
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Full Taped Interview Transcript
(delete as applicable)
Person PETER DAMIAN McCARTAN (PM) Exhibit No:
interviewed:
Place of ROYAL MAIL HOUSE Number of pages: 15
Interview:
LEVEL 6
Signature of interviewer
Date of 22.11.13 Time commenced: 10.16
Interview:
Tape reference Time concluded: 10.39
no.:
Duration of 23 MINUTES
Interview:
Interviewing SUZANNE WINTER (SW) SIMON HUTCHINSON (SH)
Officers:
Other persons STEPHEN HARPER (ST) - FED REP
present:
Tape Person TEXT
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sw
POLLS
This interview is being tape recorded and the time
is 10.16 and the date is the 22™ of the 11‘ 2013.
The interview is taking place in Royal Mail House,
Level 6 in the interview room. I am Suzanne
Winter, Post Office Security Manager employed by
Post Office Limited in the Security Team and my
colleague Simon Hutchinson is present as well.
Also present is Stephen Harper from the federation
Union and Damian, Peter Damian McCartan who was
Sub PM of Ballnafeigh Post Office. I have asked
Mr. McCartan to attend the interview with regard
to answers that he gave during the interview on
Friday gth January 2013 which was relating to the
audit that had taken place at Ballynafeigh Post
Office Thursday 3°? January 2013. Mr. McCartan
has been given PL, POLO01 legal rights and it’s
his document explaining the legal rights and it’s
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PM
sw
important that you read and understand it and just
because the tape has just been switched on if you
could just put a further time there of 10.16. Mr.
McCartan has also indicated the date as the 22"
November and again I will just caution you,
because you are suspected of having committed a
criminal offence which may result in a criminal
prosecution, I must inform you that you do not
have to say anything but I must caution you that
if you do not mention when questioned something
which you later rely on in Court, it may harm your
defence. If you do say anything it may be given
in evidence, do you understand the caution and Mr.
McCartan has indicated yes. I must also inform
you that you are not under arrest and you are free
to leave if you wish. If you do remain you have
the right to legal representation and advice,
including the right to speak with a Solicitor in
private either in person on the telephone or in
writing. You are entitled to read the Police and
Criminal Evidence Northern Ireland 1989 Codes of
Practice if you wish. The codes set out your
legal rights and the rules governing the conduct
of this interview. Have you read 1 - 4 above and
if you would just indicate that you have and just
write ‘yes’. Do you understand 1 - 4 above?
Yes.
Now we come to the decision of the Solicitor. I
wish to speak with a Solicitor as soon as it is
practical or I do not wish to speak to a Solicitor
at this time. If you do not wish to have legal
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advice, please give the reason why so at the
minute do you wish to speak to your Solicitor?
PM Er not at present.
3.15 sw So if you just sign then ‘I do not want to speak
to a Solicitor at this time’ that bottom one there
and if you just want to indicate ‘not at present
then’ just there. If you do not want to speak
with a Solicitor at this time you can change your
mind at any time during the interview do you
understand?
PM Yeah.
sw And then if you just sign it, date it and then
time is 10.20 and then print your name and the
date and the time is 10.20, the date the 22™4
November. Damian McCartan has now signed POLOO1
indicating at this time he does not wish to have a
Solicitor. Now also as part of the Post Office
agreement with the unions you can have a friend
present during the interview. So the Post Office
Limited has agreed with the unions that Post
Office staff when interviewed by an investigator
may have a friend present at the interview or
search. Any friend invited to attend a Post
Office Limited interview must be at least 18 years
of age and not already involved in the enquiry.
He must be a Post Office Limited employee who may
be the local union representative or any other
official of the recognised union for the grade.
The right to a friend is in addition to your legal
advice. If there is a search of your home address
you have a right to ask for an employee, friend,
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or person to act as a witness. So I am now
showing POL003 to Mr. McCartan. I have read and
understood so if you’d want to indicate yes.
5.14 PM Yes.
Sw If you require a friend now you have Stephen
Harper so if you just put Stephen’s name there
that’s brilliant.
PM PH?
st PH.
sw And then just sign.
PM U or ar?
ST AR.
Sw Just sign and the time is 10.22 and the date the
22° November. Now Stephen if you would just look
at the form if you would put you have been called
by, so you have been called by Peter Damian
McCartan so you have been called to act as a
friend during this interview and your role as a
friend is to witness what happens during the
interview and if requested permitted to attend a
search but you may not take part in the interview
proceedings nor touch anything during any search.
During the interview you may take notes which must
be treated as confidential. If the interviewee so
requests at a later stage, you may let him have a
copy of these notes for use in any subsequent
official appeal about the procedures followed
during the interview. If the person being
interviewed so wishes, your statement may be
communicated to his union as confidential. No
other communication about the interview or search
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sw
PM
sw
PM
sw
except in connection with Court proceedings is
allowed without the permission of Post Office
Limited. I have read and understood the above and
am willing to act as a friend and then if you just
sign at the bottom of the form please Stephen,
name and your grade in your office.
Time and date what time again?
The time is 10.25 and the date is the 22™
November. Form POL003 has now been completed by
Stephen Harper. Ok Damian that’s all the forms
the legal forms filled in. Now just to go back we
had the interview on the 8 January, since then
we haven’t been in any communication until maybe
this past couple of weeks and I invited you to
attend this interview today. You had mentioned to
me by text that you had been involved in a car
accident, are you happy enough or fit enough to
attend the interview today?
I think so.
To go back to that interview now I know it was a
while ago but I just want to remind you, I just
want to discuss with you about the situation
regarding the pin pads, the new pin pads have gone
into the office and this is where you said you’d
lost a lot of money by customers coming in.
That’s where it was lost.
So if I just read back to you if you just confirm
this is what you’d said, you said that a customer
came in and it was only on the occasions whenever
they asked to withdraw the full amount of money
withdraw limit?
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PM Yeah.
sw They would then enter their pin number.
42 PM Press enter.
Sw They would press enter, you would then actually
give them the money that came up on the screen.
PM Yeah.
Sw And the customer’s not pressing the button the
second time.
PM Yeah.
sw To confirm. This meant that you handed out the
cash to the customer, they took the card, walked
out and it wasn’t taken out of their.
PM Account.
sw Their accounts. It also meant that the
transaction had been cancelled and this then
created a shortage in the office is that right?
PM Well it was in that’s what it was, the money was
missing it wasn’t (indistinct).
Sw So during the interview I did say to you that I
would check out what the actual pin pads was
saying to be fair then so it was just to let you
know that I have been at the Horizon screen with a
trainer and we have looked at the situation and
yes what you were saying is right there to that
extent where the clerk, the customer would
approach the counter and ask to withdraw their
cash. The pin pad screen at that time is really
just showing adverts until the customer inserts
their card. The clerk has indicated that they
want to withdraw all so the clerk hits either
withdraw all icon or the withdraw on the Horizon
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system and the pin pad screen then asks for the
customer to enter the pin number is that correct
at the minute so far?
PM I think so.
10.15 Sw The pin pad screen then shows the words ‘enter
pin’. The customer enters the personal pin number
into the pin pad and presses the green enter
button. The pin pad screen then shows ‘amount to
withdraw’. The maximum is 600. It may show 300,
400 depending what’s in the customer’s account and
then it asks the customer to confirm amount by
pressing the green button again so this is where
you were saying it was all going wrong for you is
that right?
PM Yes.
SW The next stage was the clerk’s horizon screen so
this is the screen you would be looking at, it
shows ‘ask the customer to confirm the amount’.
and it also shows the amount
PM It shows the amount where previously it didn’t.
Well previously it just, at that stage you just
gave the money out.
sw And until the customer confirms the amount, that
screen stays static with only a cancel option
available so you’re sitting at the Post, er at the
counter and the screen is there and it’s saying
‘ask customer to confirm amount’, it’s also
showing you the amount and then the only other
option is the cancel option would that be right?
PM I think so.
11.28 SW The customer hits the green ‘confirm’ button and
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12.13
12.52
PM
sw
PM
Sw
PM
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PM
sw
the pin pad screen then instructs the customer to
remove the card. If the customer does not remove
the card, the pin pad beeps an alarm. When the
customer hits the green confirm button, the
clerk’s horizon screen goes to the pay out screen.
The clerk counts the money out to themselves then
out to the customer and then hits the ‘pay out’
cash button on the horizon screen. A receipt is
only printed after the customer removes the card
from the pin pad so what I’ve just explained to
you there, is that the proper way that the whole
transaction should be conducted?
Yeah.
So if we go back to what you were saying, if the
customer does not press the green button to
confirm the amount.
Yeah.
Or if the card is left in the pin pad, nothing
happens on the pin pad screen and the clerk’s
horizon screen remains static on ‘ask customer to
confirm amount’, again it’s only the cancel
option. No pay out screen appears unless the
green button is pressed and no cash should be paid
out. Is that right what I’ve explained to you?
I think so.
If the cash is paid out and the cancel button hit,
then the transaction would not occur. The receipt
would show a cancelled transaction and would show
as no pay out on transaction log.
Don’t think so don’t think there was any receipt.
It says if there’d be a cancelled transaction a
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4.20
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sw
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PM
cancelled receipt would come out. If the cash is
paid out and the cancelled button hit.
That’s if the cancelled button’s hit.
So if you cancel and cancel button hit you will
get a cancelled transaction receipt.
That’s if you hit the cancel button, if you press.
If money has been paid out without hitting the
green button the second time which is what you’ve
said you’ve done to create this loss, as soon as
they remove their card the transaction would
cancel. The receipt would say ‘cancelled’ and
stock would be down. The only time the green
button is used twice is if the full amount is
requested and then the receipt would be a full
receipt if button has been hit twice or if they’ve
requested exact amount but bear in mind the
customer cannot have a receipt unless the full
process is followed. Now you’ve checked and
you've confirmed what I’ve said and what the
trainer and I have gone through on the system is
correct and again it does say if as you said the
customer walks out without pressing that green
button has their cash, that’s right what you were
saying.
Yeah.
What I want to put to you today is that you’re
sitting there at the counter and on that screen it
is telling you ‘ask customer to confirm amount’.
But they didn’t notice it sometimes, they didn’t
notice it a lot of times, it began with the
changeover we weren’t told that that was going to
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happen on the screen.
sw Right and you said before that you weren’t told.
14.44 PM If you’re rushing through ‘cos most of the time.
sw Now all I’m wanting to ask you today Damian is I
have worked at the counter with these new pin pads
and I can say myself that I have seen that on the
screen and the screen is telling me ‘ask the
customer to confirm the amount’ yes it does show
the amount but you have to ask the customer.
PM Yeah but for 9 years and 6 months previous to that
the screen just showed the money and you took it
out.
sw Right.
PM So that’s what we’ve been doing for 9 years and 6
months there was no warning anything was changing
so we just went (indistinct) that’s what I’m
saying.
sw So whenever the new pin pads came in.
PM We were not told that you had to press enter
twice.
SW No but the customer has to press enter twice.
PM Yeah we weren’t told that we weren’t told that
that change was coming.
15.30 sw So whenever the new pin pads came in, what
happened? New pin pads were delivered?
PM New pin pads delivered, put in and just that’s it,
they worked the same as the last ones only they’re
new.
sw Did you receive any instructions regarding it?
PM Nothing including the instruction that the system
had changed.
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sw Right so say for instance you hadn’t, right if you
hadn’t received the instructions and it comes up
on the screen ‘ask customer to confirm amount’,
what did you expect had to be done?
PM Well I didn’t notice it like.
SW Do you just.
PM I’m just going on automatic most of the time like
because if you haven’t been told something’s
changing then you just go on automatic, 9 % years
it was the exact same way every time.
sw And Peter and Annette, did they do exactly the
same?
PM I’m not sure, I don’t think so, I know Peter on at
least one occasion did because he put money in out
of his own pocket and he said he’d done it.
SW So Peter had done it on one occasion?
PM At least one yeah.
sw So right say for instance.
PM But I think it was when I had the problem was when
I told them I done most of the work and also I
just done most of the work that’s it.
16.43 sw So say for instance yes you have done it, you've
done it and you’ve made a mistake, I’m questioning
the fact that whenever I have gone through the
system and I can see how it comes up on the screen
and it tells me ‘ask customer to confirm amount’
that to let that happen to the point where it has
reached over £40,000 of a loss, I find that very
difficult to believe.
PM Well as I said I didn’t think it was that much but
that’s the only thing I can do to explain it.
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sw Whenever you paid out customers did you give them
a receipt?
17.29 PM I can’t remember. (indistinct)
sw Did the customers usually ask for a receipt?
PM No the customers just want their money they do.
SW Right so what I’ve explained to you today with the
way the horizon system works, you agree with what
I have just?
PM I’m not 100% sure I need to go through the horizon
system again to see it but it’s more or less.
sw More or less. Again it’s just it’s whenever it’s
telling me right in front of me ‘ask customer to
confirm amount’.
PM But as I said for 9 % years it had been the same
way and we had not been told there was any change
so I just, I’m a busy Post Office sometimes you
things you just follow the way that things have
been done.
SW So you did that for every customer?
PM Not for every customer.
SW Then until you find it.
PM If a customer seen it himself and pressed it like
I wouldn’t notice it.
18.13 sw Right any questions to ask about this particular?
SH No.
sw The only other question I wanted to ask you to was
regarding Peter and Annette, do you have contact?
PM Yeah.
sw Telephone numbers or contact addresses?
PM Contract addresses yeah.
Sw That you can provide them once the interview has
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been?
PM Yeah.
sw Been completed. During the interview Damian you
mentioned that you were approaching the bank to
see about the recovery of the money. You'd said
it quite a few times during the interview.
PM (indistinct).
18.48 SW So it’s just for you to confirm have you
approached the bank as yet to get the recovery of
the money?
PM Not yet.
SW I said nearly a year’s gone past?
PM I’ve no, well I’ve only started working again so
I’d no income until now.
sw So you have started work?
PM Yeah.
sw Where are you working?
PM
SW
PM
PM /
Sw So at the minute then? —~CS
PM At the minute’s it’s reduced hours because it’s
just (indistinct).
19.36 SW Ok any questions you want to put?
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SH No.
sw Stephen are you happy with, is there anything you
want to clarify before we end the interview?
ST Well yeah can I say.
Sw Yes go ahead.
st Yeah just thinking on the pin pads, I don’t
remember any training on that. I do remember the
first transactions where unusual on that way.
Sw Where the customer had to press the button instead
of?
st Yeah.
sw In the previous time it was.
st That did catch. It never caught us out that
knowingly had any losses but it did, it was
strange at the first say the first few hours of
doing it whatever.
sw So once a day would have gone past you would have
realised what the actual way it should work?
ST Possibly yeah.
SH But the system Peter didn’t let you give money out
without you doing some sort of a transaction on
the horizon screen.
PM Yeah.
SH Even though it was a new system you still realised
you had to do some sort of a performance with it?
ST I’m just saying memory was, there definitely was
no training on it.
PM (indistinct) previously it didn’t. Previously
there was no, we put in the number and the amount
came up and that was the amount you gave out
previously. When that system changed we weren’t
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told that it was changing so the amount came up
and that was the amount I gave out.
SH Yes but you had then consciously do something?
PM No.
SH Do an act on the horizon system then go onto your
next transaction.
PM If the customer, I think the customer pulled out
and hit cancel that was gone.
21.14 Sw Are you happy enough then Stephen or there any
more questions you want to clarify?
st Yeah, no.
sw Ok. I wish to bring this interview to a close, is
there anything else you wish to clarify before we
bring the interview to a close?
st (indistinct).
PM The Horizon system? (indistinct).
ST Possibly at this stage just leave it.
PM (indistinct).
Sw Ok I’m terminating the interview and the time is
10.
PM (indistinct)
sw 10.39 and we’re switching off the tapes.
PM Thanks.
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