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Hi is that Gareth Jenkins.
It is indeed.
Oh hi Gareth it’s Simon Clarke I’m a Barrister prosecuting a case
for Jarnail on Monday at Birmingham Crown Court.
Right,
Jarnail suggested that we give you a call because we've heard
that the Insight Committee Report is due to go before MPs next
week I think I don’t know if you have heard the same thing,
have you?
8 July is the date I have been told.
I beg your pardon.
8 July I have been told.
Oh, is it the 8» of July, ok that’s fine. Well I don’t suppose you
know anything about the case of Samra the Hurst Lane
Birmingham Post Office do you?
No that’s not one I have been asked to provide any statements
for before I know nothing about it I’m afraid.
Ok, well can I give you a brief sort of thumbnail sketch.
Basically this is a Post Mistress who is alleged to have made
double transaction withdrawals from Horizon when people
have come in and taken money out on their Post Office card
accounts. Do you follow?
Yes I think I’ve heard about that sort of scam going on yes.
Yes, and essentially what she is doing she is asking them to put
their pin number in a second time claiming that it hasn’t worked
the first time and accordingly then taking the money out herself.
Yep.
All of and I mean all of the evidence we have got against her is
Horizon data evidence.
Yep.
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And when I say that what I mean is that all the transactions are
conducted over the counter through Horizon.
Yep
I don’t know if you know that the accounts themselves are
maintained by Hewlett Packard who provide the data
processing facilities that send out the bank statements but all of
their information of course is derived directly from Horizon
transactions back at the branch yeah.
Yes I understand that. Yep.
Ok. The problem I have got is that we are not allowed to see the
Report but we are told that there are up to 30 offices where bugs
have been identified, yeah, and we know that Hurst Lane is not
one of the branches where there has been an identified bug. Still
with us?
Erm right as I say certainly I am aware of 2 bugs. Is it. Firstly is
this something that has been done on Horizon on the new
Horizon system or the old system.
It’s the
What's the date.
It’s Horizon Online.
Ok right. So there is 2 bugs that we have declared to Second Site
in that sort of area erm and erm we know exactly which
branches are affected and they wouldn’t have any impact
whatsoever on that part of err what’s going on erm and I think
we've, we are confident that the audit trail that you are using for
prosecution has not been compromised by those bugs.
Right Ok. So what I’m looking for then ... That’s helpful.
What I’m looking for then because I have to consider whether or
not we need to disclose this information to the defence or even
stop the trial as you will understand.
Yeah.
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What I’m looking for is confirmation effectively that you have
given so can I ask you a couple of questions which may prompt
yes or no answers?
Sure.
Erm as far as the data that the transactions conducted over
Horizon which involve the withdrawal of sums of cash from
Post Office card accounts, is there any reason to believe that
Horizon can be, can slip into error?
Not that I’m aware of.
Ok and has there been any evidence or hint or suggestion from
anybody or any complaint from anybody that that might be the
case?
No.
Ok. Erm, where are we going from here. What's the questions I
posed earlier. Sorry I’ve got Martin Smith here with me as well,
he’s the Solicitor in the case.
I know Martin.
Hi Gareth.
Hi.
Hi. It’s the Horizon system is functioning perfectly.......
This is the other point. Bugs have been identified in Horizon
which call into question some of the aspects of the way in which
is operates. That's a fair assessment isn’t it?
Erm yes.
Yep. Ok. How can we be sure that (a) we have identified all of
the bugs that there are and (b) that although Horizon has been
demonstrated that to be fallible that in so far as the case we are
conducting is concerned we can eliminate the possibility of
error.
Right I mean clearly we can’t you can never say there are no
more bugs in the system so we've got to be careful about trying
to say anything like that but what we can show is that nothing
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has been found to show that there is a problem in the integrity
of the audit trail which is what has been used for the erm erm
your evidence.
So your view is that erm that if the defence were to suggest erm
there is a problem with Horizon and therefore we can’t rule out
that there might be other problems with Horizon what you say
is as far as you're concerned the integrity of the system is intact.
Yes.
That's very very helpful. Thank you. Martin over to you.
Thank you for that Gareth I think that’s answered a number of
questions that we had. I’m grateful for the time you have taken
to talk to us.
Ok, no problem. Good luck.
Thank you Gareth.
Cheers, bye
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