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From: Mark Underwood1f
Sent: Fri 13/11/2015 11:00:12 AM (UTC)
To: Patrick B
Allchorn{
Subject: RE: Post Office Matter
It would be good to get call between the three of us at 11:15 — to discuss and action Di’s email that I am about to
forward now
Mark Underwood
Complaint Review and Mediation Scheme
From: Patrick Bourke
Sent: 13 November 2015 10:25
To: Mark Underwood1; Steve Allchorn
Subject: RE: Post Office Matter
Sorry chaps
Forgot to say thank you for compiling this list — it’s very helpful. Can we add in the bits that Chris came back with last
night to make a master list ? It might be as well to do this with some columns so we can just say who is
finding/sourcing; state of play; and whether done or not, including on which date.
We will need to stand behind Rod with an appropriate prodder for the bits he needs to do. I think we can already have
a stab at putting together a proposal for the helpdesk stuff on the basis of the information we have so far. If we really
cannot get hold of historical documentation or a sense as to the updates made to the KB, the so be it — we can make
up what we don’t have. But we will need to make up for this as best we can with access to people who have worked
on the HD for the longest time possible.
lam going to in the call at 1130 on yesterday’s fantastically annoying mediation, before I have to drive back to
London. I wonder whether we should start that call at 1115, with the 3 of us to discuss all of this — what do you think ?
Pp
From: Patrick Bourke
Sent: 13 November 2015 10:09
To: Mark Underwood1; Steve Allchorn
Subject: RE: Post Office Matter
Damn. I’d forgotten about Jane’s ask that we send something to Tim every other week. I doubt he’s in the slightest bit
interested but we'd better establish what we can say.
Presumably:
1. Horizon training bringing cases to life for ‘his’ legal team
2. Lengthy Meeting with legal team has sharpened up their ideas on the necessary lines of enquiry
3. Meeting with Lord A is key for you/legal team; others will be more technical and may not require your
participation
4. Ontrack, but if legal team advises that some IT testing is necessary and/or desirable, this might take us
beyond Xmas
It’s pretty thin gruel as updates go...I wonder whether Jane really wants to report it ? What do you think ?
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Patrick
From: Mark Underwood1
Sent: 12 November 2015 11:51
To: Patrick Bourke; Steve Allchorn
Subject: RE: Post Office Matter
Thanks Patrick,
Going through the note, it looks like we have 12 or so actions:
1, Set up meetings with JA, SS & AB
Let’s catch up with Di to see if JA can do 20 Nov. If he can, SS will likely be able to also and then it will just be a
case of seeing if Tim Parker can attend
2. Provide, as requested, a recommendations of cases of cases to review in respect of the non CCRC Criminal
cases
Self explanatory — we should be able provide these fairly easily
3. Arrange a meeting with Kath and Shirley
Should be straightforward once J&C let us know that they are ready to meet them
4. Provide, as requested, a recommendations of cases of cases to review in respect of the investigations
Self explanatory — we should be able provide these fairly easily
5. Produce a proposal of how to investigate the helpdesks
This is trickier, though I imagine will relate closely to request Steve made of Kendra.
6. Provide an over view of how the helpdesk systems operate generally
This has largely already been done via the answer provided to Q6 of the draft ToR. I am however adding to it
in terms of referencing the key Fujitsu document that sets out the ‘Incident Management Process’ (that can
also be appended and sent to FJ) and Steve is working on the NBSC process Map which can be included as an
annex. I will then circulate amongst Kath and Shirley (and Kendra?). Then I will share with Pete Newsome.
Then I think we are good to go on this front.
7. Establish how long the helpdesk most FAQs have been in effect
Kendra’s note this morning suggests we will only have today’s most FAQs. So this probably doesn’t add much
8. Arrange meetings with Kendra and other relevant helpdesk Personnel
Should be straightforward once J&C let us know that they are ready to meet them
9. Provide copies of audit reports used to accredit Horizon
I have asked Newsome to provide:
Ernst & Young produce an ISAE3402 service auditor report over the Horizon processing environment;
Bureau Veritas perform 1SO27001 certification — this is the industry standard security accreditation;
Information Risk Management (IRM) who accredit Horizon to Payment Card Industry Data Security Standards
For the period they have been used
10. Provide Spot Reviews
Easy to do, if not already done
11. Provide details of system wide upgrades
See my attached note
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12. Consider Additional testing of the system
To be discussed
In addition, we should probably begin to think about the content and format of Tim’s briefing with JA, SS & AB. Also, I
think Tim is due another update tomorrow. Could we catch up this afternoon to discuss the above?
Mark
Mark Underwood
jew and Mediation Scheme
From: Patrick Bourke
Sent: 12 November 2015 10:15
To: Christopher Knight; Jonathan Swift
Cc: Jane MacLeod; Mark Underwood1; Steve Allchorn; Rodric Williams
Subject: Post Office Matter
Importance: High
Dear Jonathan, Christopher
Many thanks for coming to see us on Tuesday.
I hope you found the Horizon demonstration session helpful and that we were able, through it, to bring some of the
material you are wading through to life a bit.
I said I would send you a short recap on where the discussion we had afterwards has left us.
Meetings with prominent stakeholders
You expressed the view that it would be desirable to have meetings with Lord Arbuthnot, Second Sight and Alan
Bates, together with Tim Parker, as soon as practicable. This would a) sensitise them to the fact that the enquiries are
underway; b) potentially enable them to inform and/or supplement your lines of enquiry (and certainly provide a
platform for this); and c) help us in terms of the overall external credibility of the process. These initial meetings could
be built upon at a later stage for more detail, and if necessary. Tim’ availability represents a serious challenge. For
that reason, we are prioritising the Lord Arbuthnot meeting. However, we will start the ball rolling on getting all of
these into the diary, liaising with your clerk in the process.
The 4 strands of enquiry
We had a general discussion about the handling of these, and drew the following conclusions:
- Criminal cases — you were of the view that, in the light of the substantial work already undertaken by Brian
Altman QC and Cartwright King, your role might be limited to recording whether or not, in your view, the Post
Office had adopted appropriate policies and processes, perhaps by reference to specific recommendations
and/or one or two cases. You asked whether we might have some suggestions as to those cases you might
include in this sample and we, of course, will provide these.
- Investigations — you would, as anticipated, use the documentation we have provided (including the
spreadsheet covering the 136 cases) to test the appropriateness/reasonableness of the scope and depth of
our investigations under the Scheme using a sample of the actual cases to draw your conclusions from. We
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agreed to put you together with the relevant internal investigators at the appropriate time. You also asked
whether we might suggest some cases which could usefully be included in your sampling exercise and we will,
of course, provide you with some ideas.
- Helpdesk — we discussed the challenges of testing the quality of support provided by the Helpdesk given the
manner in which material is recorded, and I said we would come to you with a proposal for addressing these.
will write separately on this, but for the benefit of this note, the main elements will be to supply you with
documents (over and above those you already have) which show how the Helpdesk system operates
generally. Then, through the administrators of the system, work is already underway to try to identify those
accounting issues most frequently raised by SPMs and the answers provided by reference to the Knowledge
Base. We will try to establish how long those answers have been in effect for and any changes to them over
the period. We will then arrange meetings for you with the relevant personnel (including, where possible,
those responsible for the Helpdesk over the relevant time period).
- Horizon — we will provide you with copies of reports prepared for the purposes of trying to confirm the
reliability of the system for accounting purposes (this includes the Deloitte report(s), Second Sight’s work, and
the most recent ISAE3402 Report prepared by Fujitsu and Ernst & Young covering the Horizon processing
environment).
- Wewill also provide you with the “Spot Review” responses which Post Office and Fujitsu prepared in
response to specific issues raised by Second Sight in connection with their July 2013 Report, and will review
other potentially relevant Horizon accreditations (e.g. that obtained for Payment Card industry standards).
- Wewill also ask Fujitsu to provide us with details of any system-wide upgrades which have taken place over
the relevant time period which had, as one of their components, changes to the system’s accounting
processes. As we noted in our meeting, these will include counter, hardware, and infrastructure releases from
which any specific changes to branch accounting/recording issues would need to be parsed out.
- Lastly, we can consider whether some form of testing should be conducted once a specific, testable issue has
been identified, bearing in mind that this would only demonstrate how the system is operating at this point in
time.
Timings
We’re all conscious of the time constraints we are working within, and it may be that some limited work will need to
continue after Xmas (eg any testing you recommend) and be reported as being underway in the Chairman’s report to
the Minister. However, our ambition remains to complete all substantial elements of the work before then, so we will
need to proceed at pace. My team here is available to provide you with any support or information you may need, so
do please lean on us as necessary.
At the appropriate juncture, we will want to revisit our early (and necessarily tentative) discussions about the shape
and length of your report to Tim and to make arrangements for drafts etc.
The various outstanding issues identified in this note will reach you under separate cover.
Kind regards
Patrick
Patrick Bourke
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