Briefing for call/meeting with James Arbuthnot MP
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Key points to cover:
a) We have now received draft report — confirms no evidence of systemic problems; we
accept lessons about training and support; but some factual inaccuracies which we are
working to address with SS.
c) As outlined in letter, propose following next steps:
a. Setting up Branch User Forum
b. Address remaining MPs cases through one-to-one briefings
c. Take forward Alan’s suggestion of an independent avenue for spmrs — can’t
commit to specific mechanism yet as has to be considered carefully, but very
much agree with the principle.
d) Propose joint statement on Monday
b) Constructive telephone calls with Alan Bates. He is keen to work with us on next stages.
SPEAKING NOTES
Introductory points
- Thank you for the further opportunity to discuss the Second Sight report
- You will have received my letter following the very useful meeting we had with
our chairman on Wednesday
- I wanted to update you on the position since then
- We have now had the opportunity to see the interim review. It has some
factual inaccuracies and some areas where it is not as clear as it could be
which we are discussing urgently with Second Sight. I will come on to that
- But! first want to be clear with you that while the report is clear about how
effective Horizon is as a system, we do recognise and absolutely
acknowledge that we need to improve our support processes and our training
Indeed we have made some significant changes in the last few years — but I
am not at all complacent, and I am determined to address this issue
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We care very much about our people and I need to make sure that spirit lives
throughout the business, and particularly with those who operate on the front
line
So we will be taking steps to address these issues. I have a few ideas which I
would like to discuss with you.
The report
First though I wanted to update you on the report. My team are currently
studying it line by line
As we expected it says that it has found no evidence of systemic problems
with Horizon
It has some lessons for us about training and support processes as I have
said
I must tell you though, that there are some inaccuracies in the report. There
are a number of areas where will be expecting Second Sight to make
changes — we cannot accept factual inaccuracies
lam sure you understand this. The Post Office is incredibly important to many
thousands of people and it would be wrong if the Post Office’s reputation was
unfairly sullied by parts of this report
[As it stands I would not be able to endorse the report in its totality. That
would be regrettable]
I hope this will be resolved and we will work hard, with my team working on it
over the weekend. But it is only fair to tell you about the position.
JFSA contacts
I also wanted to update you on two telephone calls I have had with Alan
Bates. They have been very helpful, and he has made some suggestions
which I plan to talk to him about in more detail.
He also takes the view that while he has criticisms about the way we support
people, the Horizon system is effective.
He is keen to work with us, and us with him. I see a real opportunity to make
some steps forward. And I am very grateful to you for what you have done to
promote that approach
Initiatives
I wanted to set out how we plan to address the issues about training and
support raised in the report
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- If we have not enough sufficiently supportive approaches, or the right kind of
training, I will address this
- There are three key areas for me, and we have three proposals
- First we want to set up a Branch User Forum. This would be a group at the
heart of the business for subpostmasters and staff to raise issues and provide
feedback to improve our processes. Will review all the touch points which
subpostmasters have with central teams to change them where we need to.
We will also examine training and other support mechanisms.
- It would meet regularly and be chaired by a member of our executive. It would
report to our executive and help us to inform the way we do business.
- I think this is an important step and I hope the JFSA will work with us on it.
We would also invite representative groups.
- We intend that this forum’s first task will be to complete the review of cases
raised with us by the JFSA and report back to ourselves and MPs
- Secondly, on the MP cases, we would like to propose one-to-one meetings
with all those who have come forward with cases. This might be the best way
to move these cases forward (as you are aware Second Sight say they have
struggled to get evidence on some of them)
- Finally, I have a proposal which follows on from my call with Alan Bates. We'd
like to rebalance the relationship between the business and subpostmasters.
I think Alan is right when he says there is an imbalance — that
subpostmasters feel they need an outlet when they have issues but that the
business is not always the right place to go because it can immediately
become process-heavy
- Alan has suggested an adjudicator or ombudsman role. I think there is merit
in this and would like to investigate it further. I want to give subpostmasters
an independent avenue to go down. We need to get the balance right of
course — we need to be conscious of cost and bureaucracy, but I am sure
there is a way through this.
- [hope these initiatives give you a sense of the approach we are proposing
here. We are taking this very seriously indeed and I hope that is clear.
Handling Monday
- That takes me on to Monday and how we approach the meeting with your
colleagues
- You plan to release a statement at 6pm with your comments on the report
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- We would hope to publish the report shortly before that (subject to the
continuing discussions) along with a statement setting out the approach I
have outlined
- Wewill of course share this statement with you in advance — I would hope to
have something with you over the weekend or first thing on Monday morning
- Given the way we have conducted this review between us, and with the
JFSA, I wondered whether you might consider a joint statement?
- This would send a strong signal about the way we as a business take these
issues seriously and have worked closely with you in doing so
- lam concerned about the way the media will portray the report and I don’t
think it is in anyone's interests for this to come across in an adversarial way —
I don’t think that is in the interests of post offices and all those who work in
them and I know you have a similar view
- I would be interested in your thoughts on this — and I would of course also be
happy for the JFSA to be involved in this approach
Conclusion
- Iam interested in your thoughts on this. My final point was to talk about the
previous prosecutions
- You will appreciate that we cannot discuss individual cases in the media.
- Inall those cases there are avenues people can go down if they feel they
have been wrongly treated
- Asa business we do have to be able to prosecute where there is cause to do
so — you will appreciate that as custodians of public money subpostmasters
have to meet very high standards
- What I can pledge is that we will go through cases, privately, with MPs where
we can, and I will ensure the business gives this approach its full co-
operation
- [hope all this helps you to understand where we are coming from on this
report.
If needed on prosecutions:
- Ihave asked my legal team to work with our external lawyers to consider the
implications of the report on our criminal prosecutions during the period we
have been separated from Royal Mail.