L+/4-2
Celtic Court
Tremains Road
Bridgend
CF311TZ
29 October 2003
Mrs Betty Williams MP
House of Commons
LONDON
_ SW1A0AA
~ Your ref : C2331/41024
OstoTTice.co.uk
Dear Mrs Williams,
I have been asked to reply to your letter of 22 October 2003, to Allan Leighton
about Craig y Don Post Office® branch temporary closure.
Briefly, we have given notice to Mr Bates, the present subpostmaster, that we
are withdrawing from our contract with him. This is because we have lost
confidence in his willingness to conduct the job in the manner expected. We
gave the contractual notice period of 3 months, which ends on 5 November
2003. The branch will close for business at 17.30 on 3 November, to enable
us to complete a final audit and decommission the branch the following day
before his contract expires.
sot 4, ..loli to eee this branch cise, and ever since we gave Mr Bates
notice, we have been seeking a response from him as to whether he would be
ssiting his business {thus ellowing us the opporiunay iv Continiué the service
from the samé location, albeit with @.new subpostmaster) or if not whether he
would be willing to make his premises available for a temporary replacement
whilst a permanent appointment could be made. We have a person ready to
step in as a temp-rary replacement, but it was only this week that Mr Bates
finally informed u- he was not willing to allow this to happen.
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Meantime, we have been advertising for a permanent repiacement and
currently have several interested parties with premises in the immediate
vicinity. Unfortunately, it will not be possible for any of them to be in 2 pesition
to take over on 5 November, indeed it is unlikely that anyone wil! de so until
the New Year. But! am optimistic that we will be able to make an
appointment very scon.
I acknowledge the concerns of your constituents about the temporary
withdrawal of service. Indeed several have written directly to us in similar
vein. Please assure tt them we have been, and are doing, all we can to. __
~Tmaintain service here and apologise ‘that due to circumstances beyond our
control that is not possible. If you personally can bring any pressure to bear
on Mr Bates to allow the temporary use of his premises, I would be grateful as
this would prevent the interruption of service we are facing. Meanwhile, we
are ensuring that facilities and staffing are increased at the main branch in
Vaughan St to cope with the extra business caused by the Craig y Don
closure. .
I will ensure you are informed when a permanent appointment is made, as we
will be consulting about the change in premises. Meantime, please let me
know if I can help further.
Yours sincerely,
DAVE BARRETT
Head of Commercial Urban Area
Wales. The Marches and Merseyside
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Stephen Timms MP
SS November 2003 . morosae secs
Mrs Betty Williams MP
House of Commons
LONDON
SW1W OAA
Your Ref: C2331
Thank you for your faxed note earlier today, following up on your telephone
conversation with my Assistant Private Secretary, regarding your concerns about Post
Office Ltd's handling of a contractual disagreement with Mr Alan Bates, the sub-
postmaster of the Craig-y-don Post Office in Llandudno. I am sorry to hear that you
have not yet received a satisfactory response from Allan Leighton.
You ask me to state the Government's position on this particular contractual
disagreement and I am bappy to do so. Post Office Lid, which operates as a separate
company within the Roys! Mail Group, is responsible for contracts with sub-
Ppostmasters. A sub-postmaster’s contract is a commercial arrangement between the
individual sub-postmaster and Post Office Ltd
Conflicts over contractual matters are issues for the sub-postmaster and Post Office Lid
— with ultimate recourse through the legal system if necessary. The Government's role
in post office matters is confined to broad issues of general policy and overall financial
control.
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Ospartment of Trade and industry
v 66s
1 Victoria Street
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MINISTER FOR E)
06 Nov 2003 AND POSTAL SERVICES Tee
MINSTER FORENERGY E-comueace COPIES TO
AND POSTAL SERVICES FOR ADVICE (AND
==, DRAFT REPLY IF
APPROPRIATE!
PLEASE BY Slu
(PLEASE PHONE
EXT 50:3 IF
HOUSE OF COMMONS DEADLINE CANNOT
LONDON SWIA 0AA SEMEN.
~’ BETTY WILLIAMS AS/MP
Aelod Seneddol Liafur Etholaeth Conwy
Labour Member of Parliament for Conwy
Offices.
Surgery
Mr Stephen Timms MP
Minister of State for E-Commerce, Energy, and Postal Services
- Department of Trade and Industry
1 Victoria Street
LONDON
SWIH OET
FAXED TQ_
My Ref: C2331/41420/41423 - please quote in reply
»
6” November 2003 a
Deow Hepokery
Thank you for your fax message of 5* November 2003 concerning the contractual dispute
between the Post Office Ltd and Mr A Bates, past subpostmaster of Craig-y-Don Post Office
in my constituency.
Following receipt of letter dated 29" Ociola, 2003 (cc -e"ve? tote dee on nostal diemute at my__ es
office on 5/11/03) from Mr Dave Barrett, Head of Commercial Urban Area Wales, The
Marches and Merseyside of the Post Office Ltd, I contacted him this afternoon on his mobile
telephone number which was listed in his letter to clarify whether he had any objections to his
Jetter being copied to constituents who has raised the issue with me. I did this in view of
comments he was making about Mr Bates im his letter. His arrogant attitude was wholly
unacceptable. Enclosed is a copy of my telephone log note concerning this :ogether with a
copy of Mr Barrett's letter of 29/10/03.
I should be grateful if you could make a formal complaint on my behalf to Mr Allan Leighton,
Chairman of the Royal Mail about Mr Barrett’s manner.
If this is the manner people like Mr Barrett uses with MPs I shudder to think how he talks to
subpostmasters, prospective subpostmasters and members of the public
Thank you for your assistance. —
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dts
Stephen Timms MP
. MINISTER FOR ENERGY, e- COMMERCE
AND POSTAL SERVICES
x) November 2003
-
Betty Williams AS/MP
House of Commons
London
SWIA O0AA Your Ref C2331/41420/41423
fine I I
Thank you for your faxed note of 6 November, regarding your telephone conversation
with Mr Dave Barrett, Post Office Ltd’s Area Manager with responsibility for Wales,
The Marches and Merseyside. You found Mr Barrett to be arrogant and believe that his
“attitude was wholly unacceptable”
I understand that Mr Barrett was responsible for the decision to close Craigydon post
office, which you had vigorously opposed. I am sorry to hear that your personal
experience of Mr Barrett has left you with cause for concern, however, it would be
inappropriate of me to comment on an employee of Post Office Ltd or seek to intervene
in this matter.
However, in view of your concerns, I have passed your correspondence to David Mills,
the Chief Executive of Post Office Ltd, and have asked him to investigate the matter and
respond to you direct.
Msc
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GRO
STEPHEN TIMMS
Department of Trade and ‘adustry
Vv 842
1 Victoria Street
London SW1H OET
GRO
www. dti.gov.uk
1N77Sewilliams doc
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dts
Stephen Timms MP
MINISTER FOR ENERGY, e COMMERCE
AND POSTAL SERVICES
Z-) November 2003
P
David Mills
Chief Executive
Post Office Ltd
148 Old Street
London
EC1V 9HQ
PN Motd
Dar Dod I
1 am writing to let you know that Betty Williams AS/MP for Conwy, has written to me
to complain about how she was spoken to in a telephone conversation with
David Barrett - Post Office Ltd’s Area Manager with responsibility for Wales, The
Marches and Merseyside.
Complaints about staff representing Post Office Ltd are an operational matter for the
company and I should be grateful if you could arrange to provide an early response to
Ms Williams, with a copy to me for information
Gis weal ;
GRO I
STEPHEN TIMMS
Department of Trade and Industry
V S42
1 Victoria Street
London SW1H OET
GRO
www. dii.gov.uk
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Mrs B Williams MP
House of Commons
LONDON
SW10AA
11° November 2003
Removal of Craig-y-don Post Office from The Wool Post
Your Ref: C2331/41413
Dear Mrs Williams
Thank you for your letter dated 10° November 2003 and the copies of responses you enclosed.
First I would like to comment on the response to you from Dave Barrett in which he states about
me, “we have been seeking a response from him as to whether he would be selling his business”. I
have never once been asked this question by anyone at Post Office Ltd.
They did make an approach as to whether or not I would allow another Subpostmaster to continue
on a temporary basis at our premises. But I am sure you can appreciate that when this.
‘organisation’ is taking away a major investment of ours as well as our livelihood with the effect
of wiping out our lifesavings, our willingness to help them out of the mess they have created is less
than forthcoming. It just goes to show how little in touch with the real world they are. I would
have gladly carried on providing the Post Office service at our premises until some future date if
they had asked, but they never did. This I would purely have undertaken for the sake of the local
community, not for Post Office Ltd.
The comments made in his letter about “lost confidence” etc., is really just a smokescreen to ty
and justify their actions from their position. The real truth behind all this are the problems with
the Post Office Horizon system and the lengths that the Post Office will go to keep it covered up.
If this had not been the case, Post Office Ltd could have answered all my previous letters over the
past three years about liability and access, and we could have moved on. But they realised if they
entered into correspondence «n access and liability the real extent of the system problems would
become exposed, so they decided to remove me a different way and are trying to hide behind the
phrase of a contractual issue.
With regard to the response you received from the Minister I can see that the Post Office is using
its ‘contractual issue’ ploy with him again, but he really needs to look into the Horizon issues. It is
Horizon which in one way or another is causing the problems.
My stance since the Horizon system was installed three years ago was that I was unable to accept
liability for system data until such time as I could access the system to check the data I had input.
I have yet to find a person who finds that unreasonable, other than the Post Office who have
refused to even recognise my query. There is nothing in the contract between myself and Post
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Office Ltd to say that I should, hence the only way to try remove me was under a clause where
they were not required to give a reason. During the time I had Craig-y-don post Office we had
invested tens of thousands of pounds improving the premises and post office facility and had been
growing business year on year.
Post Office Ltd are terrified about the real facts with Horizon being known and it seems they will
stop at nothing to keep them hidden. I would say now that we are getting into an area that the
Minister should be involved with.
I will offer a recent experience as an example, though as I and others struggle to obtain hard
information or replies, some of the detail may be corrected at a later time. A number of weeks ago
some poor advice received from the Post Office support helpline resulted in £600 relating to a
foreign currency purchase being entered onto the Horizon system wrongly. Over the following
weeks there were a number of telephone calls to and from the Post Office support team trying to
follow through on this incident.
The last phone-call I received from them on this matter was from the Post Office Problem
Management Unit in Barnsley (25 September 2003) when they requested that I print off a report
from the system to enable them to look for the detail of the currency transaction. I was instructed
to install a new till roll in a counter printer and run the printer overnight, printing off every
transaction from all three till positions for the whole week in which the currency transaction had
happened. The resulting till-roll was to be sent to them and they would go through the thousands
of transactions on it line by line to try and locate the currency transaction. All this had to happen
relatively quickly as after 30 days all the data is lost from the computer and also there is no way
for their department to access the data at our post office even though the Horizon system is
networked.
So if you now return to my stance about being held liable for data I am unable to check, the fact
that the data is only in existence for 30 days but the liability Post Office Ltd are trying to impose is
timeless. Perhaps you can appreciate why Post Office Ltd refuse to discuss this issue, preferring to
keep it hidden.
This really does need to he investigated at the highest level. I have other examples of problems
and have heard many other stories from Subpostmaster and others. 1 firmly believe this is only the
tip of an iceberg about the appalling condition of the Horizon system is in, and I am hoping that
my website will encourage others to come forward and document their experiences.
Alan Bates DNA
Ex Subpostmaster Craigyy-don Post Office
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23
(OSI AS
HOUSE OF COMMONS RECEIVED iN
LONDON SWI1A 0AA 2 4 NOV 2003
BETTY WILLIAMS AS/MP MINISTER FOR ENERGY £-C0
Aelod Seneddol Llafur Etholaeth Conwy AND POSTAL SERV
Labour Member of Parliament for Conwy
Mr Stephen Timms MP
Minister of State for E-Commerce, Energy, and Postal Services
Department of Trade and Industry
1 Victoria Street
LONDON
SWIH OET
My Ref: C2331/41609 - please quote in reply
19" November 2003
Dior Saphn
Enclosed is a copy of a letter of I 1 November 2003 from my constituent Mr Alan Bates, The
Wool Post, 21 Queens Road, Llandudno, LL30 1AZ about the temporary closure of the
Craig-y-Don Sub Post Office.
. hope you agree thai Mr Buics iciscs relevant questions ~vhich need to be clerified and T have
also sent a copy of Mr Bates’ letter to Mr Allan Leighton and asked for his official response.
I should be grateful if you could consider the points made and let me have your views,
especially on the Horizon issues.
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POSTAL SERVICES.
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dts
Stephen Timms MP
‘ FOR ENERGY, & COMMERCE
AND POSTAL SERVICES
q January 2004
Mrs Betty Williams MP
House of Commons
LONDON
SWIA0AA
Thank you for your letter of 19 November enclosing further correspondence from your
constituent Mr Alan Bates of The Wool Post, 21 Queens Road, Llandudno, LL30 1AZ.
Your Ref: C2331/41609
Mr Bates was formerly the sub-postmaster of the Craig-y-don post office branch, however,
following a dispute between Mr Bates and Post Office Ltd.(POL) his contract was terminated. I
have outlined in previous correspondence on the matter the Government's policy on such issues
and that operational decisions of this nature are matters for POL which it would not be
appropriate for me to comment on. However, in view of the concerns raised by Mr Bates as to
the validity and reliability of POL’s ‘Horizon’ computer system, which he sees as a factor in his
dispute, I have had my officials contact the company to receive their response to the issues
raised.
I should explain that ‘Horizon’ is the name given to the project to install modern computer
systems that have automated every post office branch and enable POL to offer on-line banking
products including the Post Office card account. The Government invested £480 million in this
project and so I take very seriously Mr Bates’ suggestion that the Horizon system is in an
“appalling condition”.
I understand that the management of POL do not share Mr Bates’ concerns and are fully
confident as to the reliability of the Horizon system. The company has looked into specific
instances that have caused Mr Bates’ concem at the validity of the information generated and
retained by the system. They have found no evidence to suggest that there is any fault with the
Horizon system and maintain that the decision to terminate Mr Bates’ contract was legitimate. I
understand that POL will be writing to you, in response to your letter to Allan Leighton, about
the operational issues raised in Mr Bates’ letter.
STEPHEN TIMMS
Department of Trade and Industry
Vv 842
1 Victoria Street
London SW1H OET
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