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EY Lane4
Workforce Transformation
CONFIDENTIAL — FOR THE ATTENTION OF THE CHAIRMAN AND GCPO
NED EXIT INTERVIEWS — WRITTEN SUMMARY
The following summary is the result of 3 interviews, carried out virtually on Wed 1* March 2023. The three interviewees were; Carla Stent,
Zarin Patel and Lisa Harrington who have been in as a POL NED role for between 3 and 7 years. All three interviewees appeared fully engaged
and keen to share their thoughts and experiences.
The Interviews lasted between 40 and 53 minutes and were conducted using a semi-structured approach. The information provided below is;
1. ashort summary of main themes under the following headings;
a) Reason for leaving
b) Culture leadership and teamwork
c) Advice for new NEDs and for Chairman
2. arecord of responses to the questions
It is very clear this small review is just one snapshot but it is hoped it provides some useful stimulus for further discussion, review and insight in
order to support performance related decisions for the benefit of POL andthose it serves.
1. Themes from responses
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The following three overarching themes were purposefully kept brief given the small sample size. Please let us know if further insight /
summary is required.
a) Reason for leaving
The primary reason given for leaving the NED post was ‘end of term’, but it was also acknowledged that there is a need for some fresh
energy.
While much of the sentiment from the interviews could be construed as negative, the overarching theme was that the NEDs had been
stimulated and felt some pride from their time in post. There was a repeated sentiment that one of the challenges the NEDs may not
be so glad to leave behind was the need to; balance the responsibilities as a Board member while facing into a lack of real decision
making power.
b)
Leadership and Teamwork / Culture
There are questions on how well set up the GE leadership team are for abusiness turnaround — specifically questions were raised about
the capability, the teamwork and the interactions with the Board / NEDs Notwithstanding the external pressures and constraints
governmental changes / politics / shareholders, and competitor landscape etc, there was a strong suggestion that the levels of respect,
trust and ‘enterprise first’ thinking within the GE and also between the Board and GE are a barrier to business success that warrants
further exploration.
There were specific questions raised by at least two of the interviewees around the aggressive style / ego led behaviour of one
individual.
With the context of the current enquiry especially, there was a clear concern over whether lessons had / were being learned and
applied to prevent something similar happening in the future. Concerns were clear around thelack of time / energy that leaders had,
but also the apparent underlying lack of trust / respect between leaders and the lack of accountability (healthy support and challenge)
c) Advice for new NEDs and Chairman
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Support the accelerated building of a strong board team — with clear accountabilities, roles and ways of working— not only with thin
the board but between the Board and the GE. Utilise the experience of the past Board members, make most use of the energy of
incoming members, and recontract with all (existing and new) to set team up for success around behaviour and role / function
expectations.
Agree and be really clear and focused on leading around key risks — including commercial, reputational (stakeholder and customer), and
transformational (tech and people). Rapid alignment and building of trusted relationships to raise levels of focus and accountability for
the enterprise.
Review capabilities and restructure the leaders in GE as necessary to provide the CEO with the support needed to bothlead ona
successful public inquiry while also leading the business turnaround
Strong and honest communication about current context and future ambition. Resetting of expectations with external stakeholders,
customers & shareholders about the need for change.
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NED Exit Interviews - Questions and summary of detailed responses (non verbatim)
Questions
NED Feedback
What did you enjoy in your
NED role?
&/or
What would you say was /
were your biggest
achievement(s) while in your
role as a NED?
Ensuring we were paying ‘proper’ compensation to post masters vs penny pinching.
Helping to make sure that there was enough focus on righting previous wrongs
Not an easy question to answer even though there was a strong personal connection to the PO for
me. I have enjoyed the interaction with the Board and the people below, and also the interaction
with the two Post Master NEDs has been positive, and great to get the ‘real voice’ and I believe it has
helped us to stay grounded and make what we are doing real. I was proud that I was part of an
organisation that really came into its own for the community during Covid.
It has been very technically challenging, but I have enjoyed thestretch. Feel proud that we are ina
position to continue trading, and to have been part of the POL that played such avaluable role for
communities during covid. We have moved the POL to do the right thing legally and financially. Also
feel that the risk agenda is now not just seen as bureaucratic but as strategically impt for us to
balance what we do e.g. as a going concern and how we remunerate competitively etc.
What is the main reason(s) for
you choosing to resign from
your NED post?
I have chosen to not do a 6 year term (I have not resigned). The original plan when I joined was to
succeed as chair of audit commission but I appreciate I don’t have enough FS experience, and while
my background in large transformations is useful there is a strong need for mail and logistics
experience.
I also don’t have the rapport with and respect for the FD. He has an aggressive style which I believe
has forced out a number of females in his team and NEDs.
I have come to the end of my term, and while there is a need for some continuity I also think you can
lose some perspective if you stay too long.
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I have found it a challenge being on the PO Board- it can feel like a puppet Board, where we don’t
have real decision making powers while actually having a lot of responsibility.
I have done my term. If asked to continue! feel there is a need for fresh blood to help move forward
on some of the debates about POL future etc (which feel like they have got a bit stuck)
What are the issues facing POL
that will likely consume the
time of the incoming NEDs?
That they will be coming into a Board that is actually not that influential as a whole, thatit really has
no authority, it just rubber stamps on decisions made elsewhere.
The board is not really listened to. The exec is under real pressure and it is not sure they know how
to get the most out of the NED's.
There is not enough clarity on the role and expectations of the NED’s / Board.
The complexity of the shareholder relationship makes some things protracted. And the climate of
political instability / lack of continuity of govt stakeholders means messaging is not as consistent as
would be ideal.
We have a funding envelope and a strategic set of objectivesto achieve, but these don’t match. This
makes it is hard to be commercially viable and this means we compromise which in turn leads to not
keeping up with customer. It is harder to make the kind of turnaround decisions that we should be—
we are limping to survive.
‘Dealing with historic issues well’ — I hope that we are now at the ‘bottom’ (reached our low point)
and can start to look up.
I am not sure we have the right calibre of team at exec level and therefore there is more chance the
NED gets involved in detail when they shouldn't. Turnarounds need strong leaders and leadership;
with courage, energy and will to drive change, and who can help the organisation believe.
Historical matters — the enquiry phases 6 & 7 will draw a lot of focus about progress made / what has
been done. (This is likely to be taxing timewise and emotionally)
The funding debate is not resolved. And also being clear about the purpose of the POL— what is it
going to be in the next 5 -10 years? There is a definitely a need for the POL leadership to be aligned
around it’s reinvention, and it needs investment.
How would you describe the
The Board has lost two high court cases and probably as a consequence is risk averse — it doesn’t feel
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Board and the influence the
Board has on POL.
it has real authority.
The Board needs to help drive the changes that are needed given what POL is facing - Government
reluctance to close PO’s and commercially driven Competition.
The CEO, Chair and UKGI are the those that can have/ do have influence, but it isn’t always clear
what the UKGI rep is here to do?
It feels as though we are a bit of a rubber stampon things
The board is respected and opinions are sort. The governance is clear around who has the mandate.
What are some of the
challenges internal & external
that the board should expect
to face/tackle?
GE leadership
Bureaucracy
Strategic
Commercial
Overall, for a variety of reasons (capability, energy ....... ) the leadership probably isn’t strong enough
for the demands the organisation is facing. Nick(and the Exec) are the fixers, not the cause of the
Horizons situation, but his and their ability to remain rational and focused is being really tested by
his/ their attachment to the serious nature of the historical issues and this is depleting energy and
bandwidth for the transformations.
The Board and the Exec need to be better at supporting each other. The level of teamwork is poor.
The public enquiry process is consuming and draining the GE’s energy needed for the turnaround.
Be really clear and aligned on the messages for the shareholder re challenges ahead
The GE use the board to rubber stamp things but don’t involve the Board as they might. I am not
sure we are respected or valued, we are all vested.
There isn’t the level of trust in the GE nor are we trusted by them - this has resulted in a lack of
commitment to minuted actions.
There is a genuine concern that the Board are held accountable for stuff that we don't actually have
the authority to decide on
Having learned from the post master NEDs it shows how ‘out of touch’ our execs are they are not
connected enough to the commercials and definitely not in touch with the customer
More leverage to make bold decision is needed within Govt. Of course timings are not easygiven
politics / state of Gvt & elections, given some of these bold decisions will relate to a reshaping of the
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PO landscape.
Need to take cost out of the business— need to be set up to support a smaller retail operation
Nick doesn’t have the strongest of leadership teams. Is he the best judge of talent needed? There is
no obvious successor to Nick other than D (CIO) but he is far too stretched and needs to focus on the
platform. For the next 12 months there is a need for someone who willperform a CEO BAU role (COO
/ CEO designate) given much of Nick's focus and time will be spent on the enquiry.
There are some ‘warning lights’ around the way work is proceeding on the new platform (not
dissimilar to those witnessed during the Horizon programme) - these are linked to a strategy /
culture of ‘trying to do too much’. There is a need for POL to stop doing things — needs some brave
decision making.
What is/ are POL greatest
strategic challenge(s)?
The balance of respecting and sorting the past vs driving a bright future
Create a foundation for success with strategy and people capable and focused on turnaround and
enterprise (teamwork at top, culture throughout)
To be clear and focused on the commercial transformation needed
a
b
)
What do you see needs to
change in terms of culture?
Are there any individuals
within/outside POL who
drive the wrong culture?
People need to feel they can ‘play a part’ and the focus from what I see in the GE isn’t on people’s
strengths but on knocking them and focusing on their weaknesses (specifically AL (CFO)
The sense is that people (generally) don’t feel able to fully contribute, let alone challenge what might
not be working — not sure I see how this can change (easily) but the behaviour / tone definitely needs
to be clearly seen in the snr leaders.
There is really not a lot of trust, and given what the enquiry is trying to achieve to avoid major
incidents like this happening again, this is a real issue!
There is too much siloed working — there needs to be stronger exec team in place (with enterprise
wide turnaround mindset)
Never had a great relationship with Al—he is not great around females and not great with change /
doesn’t value being challenged or others’ views. He is obviously a core part of the existing culture.
As mentioned earlier — POL has too much going on— it needs more focus on fewer / the most
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important priorities.
am not sure the culture is that strong on ‘accountability’ and then making tough decisions regarding
capability (technical and behavioural) ? It feels as though we are carrying too many snr people?
What advice would you want
to share with the incoming
NEDs?
Help get Nick (CEO) in the right place. Make sure the right ‘contract’ is in place with the Exec soas a
whole the leadership is set up for success.
(But be aware that as things stand the exec probably don’t have the bandwidth — they are too busy)
POL is a great organisation. We need fresh energy to drive change and help us stay purposeful. The
postmasters provide lots of fabulous purpose from their communities. We must take brave
turnaround decisions. We need to face into the commercial realities and risks — Think about what
‘PE’ would do.
Really understand the technology — there is a massive dependency on the new platform / system and
it isn’t good enough to just think of it as a black box! NED’s need to see first hand how it is working
and help explore and communicate where problems are occurring or likely to occur (to avoid issues
similar to those created by Horizons)
Focus on the key risks
Push for simplification
What advice would you want
to share with the Chairman?
Complete a great handover involving new and outgoing NED's and extending to the other Board
members.
Give clear and frank messages to the shareholder (to help everyone Internally and externally)
appreciate the situation PO is in.... and the ambition moving forwards
Be decisive over the team. Have we got the right CEO for a turnaround?
Are there too many NEDs? As NEDs we feel very managed by the business. It doesn’t feel like we
have the right level of respect or that we are all in it together(NB appreciate this is two way
responsibility). There doesn’t feel like enough camaraderie in the Board — there isn’t enough mutual
respect with the execs.
Reset our relationship with shareholders
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Help our business look ahead (while maintaining enough respect and learning from the past)
Getting the people and the team that make up the new Board up to speed asap.
Careful management of the Post master NEDs — amplify the really useful and balanced / constructive
insight, and listen to but skilfully manage the trade union approach, in order that the Board develops
into the team it needs to be.
Need to identify the survival priorities and then strip all else
10. I What should the incoming NED I We should be in a position to constructively challenge but first we need to spend time on building a
do to build trust, high foundation of trusted relationships. Align around a common vision — making this a great institution
performance, and again, make sure we all see ourselves as on the same side.
accountability among POL
senior leadership?
11. I How would you describe the Given that the POL is in need of sustained transformation— commercially and culturally, (so it is set
effectiveness of the Board level
GE leadership?
up to compete and be successful in the market) there are questions about the fit of the Board level
GE leadership.
How well suited are they to drive the turnaround? To what extent do they have the behaviour /
approach needed to a) engage and inspire their people and stakeholders for the turnaround? b) to
challenge the behaviour that is not conducive to high performance teamwork and a successful
turnaround?
Nick and Al are effective as individuals but their relationship is far from optimal.
Overall there is very little alignment between members of GE on the board. It doesn't look like Nick
has many that he can rely on or trust. He will need more churn in his team.
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