WITNO1220101
WITNESS: NICHOLA ARCH
STATEMENT NO: WITNO122_01
EXHIBIT: WITNO122_01/1
EXHIBIT 1
The following documentation comprises the exhibit referenced as exhibit 1
in the witness statement of Nichola Arch referenced WITNO122_01.
WITNO1220101
Horizon IT inquiry Focus group February 25 2021
Horizon IT inquiry Focus group February
25 2021
Speakers key in order of appearance
e $1: Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
e §2: Sir Wyn Williams, Chairman
e $3: Samantha Oakley, Secretariat representative
e $6: Nichola Arch, Participant
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Transcription
Timecode: 00:00:01
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Pll just do a very quick introduction then we’ll get going. So, we’re here to hear
your views and thank you all for joining and thank you to our observers for
coming along to see what happens. So, in a moment I'll let Sir Wyn introduce
himself and the other people who we have on the call, Samantha Oakley, and
her colleagues in the secretariat and my colleague Sarah Boulton. So, Sarah will
be taking some notes and she is controlling the recording. I think you’ve all met
her online. So, thank you very much. I’ll hand over to you, Sir Wyn, to just make
your initial comments. Thank you and welcome.
Sir Wyn Williams, Chairman
Now first of all, thanks to our three participants. Nichola Arch; GRO;
} I am extremely grateful that you are taking the time to engage with this
inquiry. I am fully aware that this inquiry is not what everyone wanted, and I
acknowledge that from the start. So, I need all the help I can get. I'm the sort of chap, to
use that description, who thinks that if I am given a task to do, I just get on with it and
make the best of it. Therefore, I’m very glad that people are slowly but surely engaging
with me in a very meaningful way. It’s my goal and ambition to make a very full and
frank appraisal of all that has gone on over a period of 20 years and to do that, I need
all the help I can get. So, thank you very much. Thank you too for those who are
listening in, because one of my aims in all of this is to create an inquiry which is as
transparent as it could possibly be in all the circumstances, and the way in which that is
achieved is to have interested observers.
Timecode: 00:02:00
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Sir Wyn Williams, Chairman So, thank you for taking the trouble to be interested
observers. Having spent a fair amount of my time as a judge, I am used to public
scrutiny and contrary to popular belief, judges welcome it rather than shirk away from it.
So, I want everybody to look at this inquiry, to appraise it critically and make of it what
they will, having looked at it with objective and critical eyes. So, that’s something about
my aims and ambitions for this inquiry. Can I tell the three of you about something that
we’re not going to talk about? In case you've been worried about it. I know that the
three of you have been engaged in litigation, ... against the Post Office, arising out of
many events which have occurred over very many years. We're not going to talk about
the process of that litigation at all. I have a very full description of that litigation from the
judge Mr. Justice Fraser, which I have read with great interest. I am slowly but surely
becoming familiar with all the nooks and crannies within that litigation. So, we’re not
going to go into that at all. Save to the extent that you may, if you wish, express an
opinion about the effect that litigation had upon you but, I don’t want to know the ins
and outs of the litigation. This is not about that. I know that Ms. Arch and Ms. Skinner
were involved in a criminal process as a consequence of their interaction with the Post
Office.
Timecode: 00:04:00
Sir Wyn Williams, Chairman
. ‘has an appeal which is due to be heard shortly. We won't be
going into the app: t all. That's not what this afternoon is about. Obviously, I want to
hear what that criminal process had in terms of its effect upon you both because
ultimately, what this is about this afternoon, is the impact of Horizon upon you. That’s
really what I want to hear about. Now, you may think, well, does he really need to hear
all this from us again? That would be a natural reaction. Well, let me tell you, I’ve spent
the better part of 50 years now engaged in the law in one form or another, and what a
judge or a lawyer observes on the written page is all very well, but if we’re to capture
the real impact, the real human impact of something, there is nothing better than
showing it from the people most concerned directly. However, many pages I might read
during the course of this inquiry, and however many paragraphs may stick in my head, I
can assure you that seeing the three of you and hearing the three of you will be an
important part of my appraisal, and you three will certainly remain in my head. So, don’t
think for a moment that this won’t be a useful session because I assure you that it will
be. So again, thank you for coming. You all know that I’m an ex-judge. I’m not going to
tell you about life as a judge. I'll leave you to imagine that. Alright?
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Timecode: 00:06:00
Sir Wyn Williams, Chairman
But one thing it’s equipped me to do, is to listen very carefully. Very few people, despite
popular belief, become judges unless they have the ability to listen. So, for the next
three hours, in the main, what I’ll be doing is listening. Occasionally, and I stress
occasionally, I may intervene and ask a question, but if the last session is anything to
go by the interventions will be very few and far between. This is because Jerome is
expert, I can assure you, in teasing out all the answers that I wish to hear. So, you
won't hear from me very much, but I'll be listening very carefully and at the end, I may
make a few remarks based upon what you have to say. Anyway, enough of me. Sam is
now going to explain a little more of the process of this afternoon and give you what the
secretariat are expecting from this afternoon. I think you've been told that a number of
the secretarial team are listening in this afternoon. I just wanted to tell you that the
secretarial team is a small one, but in my view, it is a select one. They provide great
support to me and I know that they have been assisting you to learn what to expect in
advance of this afternoon. So, with that introduction, over to you Sam.
Samantha Oakley, Secretariat representative
Thank you Wyn. So, hello and a warm welcome again to ichola and; GRO I
So, hearing how Horizon issues have impacted individuals is an essential part of the
inquiry’s processes. We considered our approach to engagement carefully so that
people have a number of ways to speak to Sir Wyn, and we seek to be as open as
possible.
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Timecode: 00:08:00
Samantha Oakley, Secretariat representative
In December, we launched a call for evidence, where written testimony was welcomed.
The opening question of that call for evidence asked the respondent about human
impact. The call for evidence closed this Tuesday and in the following weeks, the
inquiry will publish the human impact statements it has received. It is important to Sir
Wyn that the inquiry starts with the people who have important experience, knowledge
and evidence, and the inquiry wants to hear from the postmasters and postmistresses
who have been on the front line both professionally and personally. These stage one
hearings also want to hear from those who supported the postmasters along the way
throughout the last 20 years, their representatives, including friends and family. Stage
one hearings are called ‘hearing from those affected’ and we welcome hearing from
anyone who has been touched by the Horizon matters. Lastly, before I put you into the
capable hands of our independent facilitator, I just wanted to do a quick overview of the
inquiry’s engagement timeline. These focus groups, stage one hearings, are running
until the end of March and registrations to participate in them has been extended until
March the 19". The stage two hearings, which will hear from the organisations, are
scheduled for quarter two, and respondents to our recent call for evidence were asked
to propose questions and themes to Sir Wyn that they wish to have explored with the
stage two participants, which will include the Post Office, Fujitsu, and the Department.
Last but not east a people’s survey will be launched this spring to further explore both
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Timecode: 00:10:00
Samantha Oakley, Secretariat representative
Today is about you. We’re so very pleased to have you here and I hope you feel
welcomed by us as you each share your story. Thank you.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Thank you Sam. Very helpful. Thank you. So, I’ll just remind you briefly of the
structure of what we are going to be doing. So, in a moment, Ill ask you to
introduce yourself and a very brief, sort of potted summary, of the events that
happened. Now, I have asked that to be brief, but it’s to give Sir Wyn an
understanding of the events, so that’s what we’d like you to start with. I’ll go
through each of you sequentially. Then we’ll talk, and I’ll ask you to have a quick
word about the headline impact, again, taking each in turn. Then we'll go through
where you were before, and then we’re going to go through in a lot of detail, the
main bulk of the session, and we'll be asking you about the impact it’s had on
your lives and the lives of those around you. We want you to give as much detail
and as much insight as you want to, as you’re comfortable sharing. I would ask
that if you hear things from each other than you agree with or resonate with you,
then please do comment. It’s a conversation between yourselves. As Sir Wyn
says, I’m not going to be talking very much, other than to guide you through a
very loose structure, so we will be led by yourselves. As we come towards the
end, we’ll perhaps if we have a chance to look to the future and things that
maybe you feel should be in place to prevent this kind of thing happening, and to
address some of those issues. So, I hope you’re all happy with that structure.
Just a quick reminder, it is being recorded. That’s for the sake of transparency so
it’s in the public domain, and a transcript of that will also be available as well, so
that it’s as transparent as we can possibly make it for this open session. Okay.
of my screen.
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Timecode: 00:12:00
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Just to tell me very briefly a sort of a potted summary of the events that
happened to you. Just take two or three minutes to put it into your own words if
that’s okay.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Yes, the, if you like, causes of it. Yes. Exactly.
GRO
you?
[there is a moment where the participant cannot be heard which is then
immediately rectified]
Timecode: 00:14:00
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Okay. Well, if you’re connected, yes. Just tell us briefly the summary of those
sort of events at the start’ GRO I
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Timecode: 00:16:00
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
And when was that about? What year was this:
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Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Right. Okay. Thank you. Nicki, do you want to give us a quick summary of your
situation at that time?
Nichola Arch, Participant
Yes. Mine was like, more complicated than that because ... I worked in the village sub—
Post Office for the sub postmistress, but she took ill health. I worked there for about
seven years. She took ill health and consequently died. Her husband who was in his
seventies at the time, rather than lose the Post Office for the village, he asked if I would
like to manage the Post Office...
Timecode: 00:18:00
Nichola Arch, Participant
...and take over the shop. I could use the shop as my own business which I agreed to. I
took a small salary from the Post Office, but he took the main salary, and he was under
contract with the Post Office. So, I didn’t have a contract between myself and the Post
Office at all. In 1999, we got contacted to say that we were going to be one of the first
Post Offices to join the roll out of the Horizon system, which was absolutely fine. I was
actually, because I’m under the impression that
the system. But I could well be wrong.
Nichola Arch, Participant
Ah right. Okay.
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Nichola Arch, Participant
Additional. Right. Okay. Well, I didn’t go to this Post... any training whatsoever. There
was... none existed for the Post Office or for anything else. So, what happened was
...the engineers turned up with the Horizon equipment, the business with the shop
which was obviously my business, and the Post Office remained open. During opening
hours, the first three hours of trading, they set the equipment up, told you how to use it,
left you with a... a folder. A ring binder of instructions and left the building.
Timecode: 00:20:00
Nichola Arch, Participant
So, by lunch time, it was just me, the computer, the business and the Post Office and
everything else. There was no other training to be had, and I had a part-time assistant
which I then had to show how to use it. Which, as it happened ... I was absolutely
terrified of the thing because I didn’t understand a word of it, and the shop and Post
Office was quite busy as well. So, I was sort of doing half manual work, and half
computerisation for the first morning to try and get the customers dealt with and the
computer system...and by lunchtime, that was my Horizon roll out, equipment fitting,
training, done. Finished. Never to be seen again. The first week I balanced, it didn’t
balance. It was approximate. I can only go by approximate because it’s 20 years ago
now, but it was rolling over sort of £4,000 every week and every week I rang the
helpline and said, ‘Look, I know I’m one of the only people with this system, but can
somebody help? Because I cannot get it to balance’, and they just said, ‘You're going to
have to declare it because we want that office open tomorrow morning. So, declare it as
itis, and obviously put the cash in’. I said, ‘Well I haven’t got that sort of money to put
in’. So, I declared it as it was seen, rang the owner obviously, although he’d never
worked in a Post Office in his life so he could only acknowledge that I was being
transparent with him, if you like. Then, I mean he wasn’t worried about it because it was
the initial roll out of the system and we were both very confident that it would correct
itself ...that it was obviously some user error of mine and that it would sort itself out, but
then the following week, it doubled. So, I rang the helpline again, ‘Sorry. No. We don’t
know what to do. Have you rung the area manager?’. I said, ‘Yes, he’s told me to ring
you because he doesn’t know what to do’.
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Timecode: 00:22:00
Nichola Arch, Participant
‘Well, we don’t know what to do, so just declare it and carry on’. This went on until
about October. The equipment was installed in the August and by the October it was
£28,000 short. I was doing exactly the same week in, week out. Ringing the helpline
every time I balanced, saying that the problem is getting worse and worse. I contacted
the area manager 19 times, which I recorded, and said, ‘/ just do not know what to do
because I haven't got funds.’. I had a little stationery shop and a card shop, and it
certainly wasn’t taking, you know, any finances to cover that amount. So... so I
declared it and then literally one morning, at half past eight in the morning, there was
three individuals waiting for me outside the Post Office when I arrived. They said they
were just coming to do an audit, so I thought nothing of it. Let them in. We never
opened again. That was the beginning of the end.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Okay. Right. Thank you. So those are the events if we want to call it that. So, I
mentioned earlier, it would just be interesting just to briefly get a feel for what
life was like for you before all of this. Both in your role as an employee, Nicki, but
as a postmaster as well. So,I_ _I how would you describe your life, just in a
very brief picture of what life was like before all these problems happened to you
in the business?
[There is a brief moment where the participant cannot be heard which is then
immediately rectified]
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Yes. So sorry, I was saying if you could just paint us a very brief picture of what
life was like for you in the business before the problems occurred.
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Timecode: 00:24:00
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Okay. Can I ask then what was your kind of, expectation, of where the business
would go, you know when you opened the door that morning?
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Timecode: 00:26:00
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Yes. Thank you.: GRO ;to return to just thinking about ...to put yourself back in
time to before all of these events. How would you describe what your life was like
professionally and personally then? Just sort of a brief summary.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Right. Thank you. Nicki, so a brief picture of your life before this then. Obviously,
your employment situation there, but how did you feel at that time please?
Nichola Arch, Participant
Yes. So, it... it was different in the fact that I’d left... when I left school, I trained as a
teacher. I was a teacher up until I was 25. Then I decided children and me wasn’t going
to happen any time soon, so I left.
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Timecode: 00:28:00
Nichola Arch, Participant
Then I started working for different Post Offices. It was like, relief. I learnt the job from
my local Post Office, the postmistress there, which is in a different village, showed me
how to do the job etc. So, I learnt and then I realised that none of them could have a
holiday, because there was nobody to run their businesses when they went. So,
everyone was... all the sub-postmasters were saying, ‘Oh we’re so tired but we can’t
have a holiday because there’s no sort of cover or anything’. I thought, well there’s an
opportunity to run a business there. So, I went self-employed, and I went round all the
Post Offices, the local little village ones, covering for when the sub-postmasters went
on holiday. Then I went to Chalford Hill Post Office which again is a tiny little village
office, and did some relief work there. This is over a five-year period, but it turned out
that I’d been going there too regular, sort of three months, four months. I said then, ‘/
can’t be sort of self-employed and be here that much. So, we’re going to have to decide
what to do’, and a discussion between us was basically, that the sub-postmistress was
getting quite poorly at that point. She said, Well, would you be prepared to run it for
me?’ She said, ‘/ want... I desperately want to keep the Post Office in the village’.
They'd owned several little shops and different things within the village, and I saw it as
a business opportunity if you like. It was me and my fiancée at the time. I mean I’m
married to him now and still am, but we were engaged at the time. We bought a shared
ownership little two-bed semi on the government scheme.
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Timecode: 00:30:00
Nichola Arch, Participant
So, this was... he was working separately which he still does now in the same job he
was working his own job. So, I saw it as a steady, good, secure... you know, the Post
Office was so respected, and it was the best sort of permanent job. I thought, well this
is great. I’ve got a little business. I’ve got a little shop. I had the shop completely
refitted. I had new carpets and new shelving. I got hold of an awful lot more business
enterprises that wanted to just display cards and I would pay for them as they’re sold if I
was willing to put their stands up. So, I got loads of different companies doing that. It
was exciting. You know, I thought right, that’s great. We may be able to get onto the
property ladder eventually, but the shared ownership meant that we had a lot less
mortgage than we would. So, it meant that it was affordable on the incomes we both
had and because I was self-employed, I used an official account. The same as what the
postmaster did actually, and he’d worked out all the finances and everything for us. So,
it was great. I thought, one day we'll get married, and one day we'll have children. We
can have this little business, grow it, and be secure for the rest of our lives basically.
That was my intention.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Okay. That was really helpful to hear. Thank you. So, the reason why obviously
we want to talk about that is kind of where you were, on the verge of all these
things happening. So, thank you all for that. So, the bulk of the rest of this
afternoon is going to be about the impact that this has had on you all. Of any
type, on yourself. So, I mentioned, I’d just like you to give me a quick headline
about how you see the impact that this has had on your life. So, it could just be a
two-minute description.
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Timecode: 00:32:00
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Then we’re going to go into the detail on the different parts of your life, but in
terms of a brief headline, ) I I wondered if I could start with you. Just to
describe that impact in your own terms.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
So very real impact for both of you. Nicki, how about you? How would you sum
up the impact it’s had for you?
Nichola Arch, Participant
Well, everything that was planned, all ended in one day. Literally, in three hours. I'd lost
my business, my shop. Well, everything and in the village, you know, I couldn’t walk
through it without people..., ‘This is the lady who stole from the pensioners.’ It was all in
the local papers. I couldn’t go in the supermarket ... the whole place would go silent.
Village life was so... almost incestuous. Everyone knew everybody. It was a living
nightmare to the point where I refused to leave the house.
Timecode: 00:34:00
Nichola Arch, Participant
I never, ever... I stayed indoors and never even went out to the shop for 19 months
until my trial, and then we had to... well, we were told that I was going to go to prison.
So, to prepare for going to prison, however way you do that. So, my husband wanted to
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wait for me, he was adamant. I told him to walk away because he didn’t need to be part
of this. He could walk away at any time and have nothing to do with it ... because I
didn’t want to put him through it. He refused. So, we went to the Registry Office, paid
£27, got married, came home, watched Emmerdale Farm. We had no... no outfits, no
photographers, no flowers, no videos, photos, nothing. It just happened. That was his
way of saying I’m going to stand by you no matter what happens. Then I just stayed
away, other than having to keep appearing in the local magistrates. Then the
Gloucester Crown Court, then the Bristol Crown Court... solicitor things. I stayed
indoors and just had... I was already... the doctor had already given me
antidepressants. I was on a lot of antidepressants and things. Yes. That's leading up to
the day of Crown Court. That was from what my life turned out to be.
[Background noises interrupted the conversation very briefly. The facilitator
apologised and muted his microphone accordingly]
Timecode: 00:36:00
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
So, I wondered, before we move on Sir Wyn. Do you have any questions about
any of the backgrounds or anything you’d like to know about before we go into
detail?
Sir Wyn Williams, Chairman
No, I think all of you, if I may say so, have focused absolutely on what Jerome has
asked you to do. All I ask is that you keep it up, because it’s going very, very well.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Sir Wyn. So, what I'd like to do now... I mentioned
that we’d have a loosely structured discussion around the impact. So, there are
different areas of your life obviously which you’ve already mentioned. Be it the
finances, obviously your liberty, friendships, family life, health and so on. So, in
no particular order, I’d like to go through those and spend as much time as we
need to on each one, so that we’re kind of focusing our discussion on the things
that matter if that’s okay. So, I’d perhaps like to start with the financial impact
that it’s had on you. On yourself, professionally and personally. I'll perhaps start
with you; if that’s okay. Just to talk us through it, so that we can get a
feel for the t that it’s had on you, on a financial front. Feel free to take your
time too, and if the others want to join in, that’s fine, but I’d just like to hear it
from your point of view please.
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Timecode: 00:38:00
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Can I ask briefly what the sort of sums were involved? Can you remember
roughly what the deduction and the debt were at that point?
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
I just wanted an approximate.
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Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Okay. So, carry on. So that continued to accumulate then. Do you want to tell us
about how that gradual impact became a bigger impact for you, I
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Can I just check then? So, your personal home was within the same building.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
You were living there?
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Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
So, the events with the Post Office, the Horizon system, they were being
effectively accumulated into the... or integrated into, your personal finances as
well?
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Right. So, you mentioned that the final impact there, that you went over to find a
buyer, you’d had the IVA in place and so on. So where did all that leave you
ultimately in the financial sense;} GRO
Timecode: 00:44:00
Geoffrey Pound, Participant
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Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
The impact of that then...
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Okay. Well, that’s a really clear description. Thank you. I wonder, in terms of your
feelings of financial difference if you want to think of it like that, how does your
position now differ from what you would have expected that morning that you
opened up the shop?
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Timecode: 00:48:00
the financial side of things. How would you describe the impact, and if you could,
just sort of tell us some of the story about the financial change that’s happened
since the event started?
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Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
That’s very clear. Thank you. We’ll come onto the health issues in a moment.
Thank you. Nicki, so do you want to, again do the same really. Tell us the story of
the financial impact that you’ve seen on yourself and your family.
Nichola Arch, Participant
Well, on the day they come and audited, they then spent all day, locked me in this
room, questioned me and all the rest of it. I was never allowed in the property again.
For Post Office reasons, for the shop. Anything. The auditor actually left.
Timecode: 00:52:00
Nichola Arch, Participant
The two persecutors as I call them, but they're investigators I assume, went up to my
boss’ house. He was in his seventies at the time and not long had lost his wife. They
basically said to him that I have... that he has to get rid of me straight away on that day.
I was never allowed to step foot in that building again. The gentleman, my boss, said,
‘Well, what about... it’s her shop. It’s all her goods and everything in it’, and he said,
‘Well, you'll have to arrange for somebody to come and collect the contents and that’s
it, but she’s never allowed to come... be in the property again, and if you do allow her,
we will be prosecuting you instead’.
Nichola Arch, Participant
Yes. It is.
Nichola Arch, Participant
Yes, they basically said... and Brian, you know, my boss was ... he’d never worked in a
Post Office in his life. He was well retired, just not long lost his wife. So, the last thing
he wanted to do was be prosecuted by the Post Office. So, he was absolutely sobbing,
and said to me, you know, ‘/ can’t believe we’re doing this, but I can’t go through it. So,
I’m not allowed to let you in’. So, in the end I arranged for removal people to go in, ona
Saturday morning, and empty the shop completely, which is what he did. Then all this
stuff arrived at my door, in my little two-bedroomed house. I thought, my god, what am I
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going to do with it all? So, it all went to the tip. I lost the whole shop. We kept a few, sort
of boxes of notelets and envelopes and things.
Timecode: 00:54:00
Nichola Arch, Participant
Anything we could fit in the loft, we did. All the rest, we dumped because, what could I
do with it? So that was it. All that stock, everything had gone. I then arranged to go into
an IVA, the same as Geoffrey, because I had suppliers that I couldn’t pay anymore
because I had no means of selling the goods. They wouldn't take... some took some of
it back but others didn’t. I landed up with around 30k of stock that I’d lost and landed up
in debt having to pay, but with no income or anything to pay it. So, we then decided to
move in with my parents. So, we sold the house. We paid as much as we could to
anybody, to everybody. Meanwhile, Post Office was adamant they were taking me to
Crown Court. They said I could put it right, but it was never an option for them not to
prosecute. They never even negotiated or even suggested it and because I was
innocent, I had been quite a feisty person I suppose. I was adamant that whatever the
matter, I was not going to plead guilty to something I hadn’t done. No matter what.
Nothing anybody, not even my own solicitor ... you know. It was never going to be a
bargaining tool. I was never going to negotiate. I was always not guilty, and I was going
to stand by it, whatever. So, the Post Office offered me no options other than to
prosecute. So, I had an IVA to settle my debts with the suppliers. We sold the house,
which was minimal profit anyway because it was a shared ownership, and so we only
owned a staircase of it.
Timecode: 00:56:00
Nichola Arch, Participant
We only owned 35%, and I think we made about £3,000, but that had just gone on
expenses anyway and we lived with my parents until the court case was over. My
husband carried on his job. He’s a lorry driver. He carried on and we stayed at my
mum's and we saved a little bit each week because we were living there for next to
nothing out of his salary. It was a question of ... he was going to stay at my mum’s
when I went to prison. So, we moved in. So, things were sort of as normal as we knew,
whatever normal was at that point because we were in sort of this zone, until the court
case was over. We'd paid everything ... other than the Post Office because I didn’t take
the money. There was no way they were going to get a penny out of me. No way. I’d go
to prison first. I didn’t have the money to give them anyway. So, I thought nope. Nope.
So, the plan was my husband would stay with my parents until my prison sentence was
done, because we had no access to the Post Office, or to the documentation to
investigate any discrepancy whatsoever, because the auditors come in and said, ‘Right,
you are £28,000 short. You will leave the building’. It wasn’t, ‘Oh, any ideas of where it
may be? Can we go through it again? Can we do some counting together?’. Absolutely
nothing. What they said was it, and I was to be escorted out of the building by the
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investigators and driven over to the Crown Office, which was eight miles away, and
locked in a room for a recorded interview. Then I had nine recorded interviews after
that. Either based there or at the... at Stroud Police Station, where they had...
Nichola Arch, Participant
I had nine ...
Timecode: 00:58:00
Nichola Arch, Participant
...because we kept changing courts and you know, it started off at a Magistrates, and
then because of me pleading not guilty, it was a question of should it be heard by one
judge or a jury? Well, because of the seriousness of it, and the Post Office said, you
know, we want to have the ability for her to go to jail and we can’t do that with a
Magistrates, this needs to be heard in a Crown Court. My solicitor said ‘Well, we’ve got
access to nothing.’. Any paperwork that he asked from the Post Office, they refused.
Even the recording of the first interview with them, they refused to supply. Up until
today, they still refuse to supply any of the recorded interviews. They said they’d
destroyed it all so we can’t get those back. So, as far as my solicitor is concerned, there
was no defence. There was nothing he could use to defend me with. It was just me. I
said, well I’m going to give it a go because I’m not having any of it. He said, “Well, you
do realise the consequences could be worse, if you don’t sort of do as they say.”
Nichola Arch, Participant
‘You're going to have no chance’. Yes.
Nichola Arch, Participant
Yes.
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Nichola Arch, Participant
It's hideous.
Nichola Arch, Participant
Well, I don’t know whether it was ever the right thing to do because they never learnt
from it. They were found in the wrong, that’s my biggest gripe of all. They were found
that they were in the wrong in 2001. So why didn’t they learn then?
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Can I just... sorry, just thinking about the financial ramifications and the impacts
on yourself that you’ve all just described. If you take yourself back to when you
were going through all that, at that point. How do you feel, it’s a question to all of
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you really but just briefly i
“thow do you feel inside when you’re going
through those financial im ~
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Okay. Thank you.
Timecode: 01:02:00
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
I lhow did you sort of feel when you were going through ...because you said
you’d lost your wage instantly, so how did you sort of feel at that time about the
financial side of it specifically?
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
And how did you feel, Nicki? At that time, sort of the emotional effects of the
financial?
Nichola Arch, Participant
Yes, I can... I can relate to what! 'Baid then. It’s like you go back to
school almost. I felt so useless, and it affected my husband's income. We lost
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everything. It felt like it was my fault that everybody had nothing. The house is gone, the
business. All the dreams we set up, it’s all my fault it had gone.
Nichola Arch, Participant
Yes, you do.
Timecode: 01:04:00
Nichola Arch, Participant
And I’m, you know... the minute it happened, it went into all the local papers. Saying,
‘This woman’s a thief and she’s stolen off of the elderly’, and things like that. So, I had
no chance of getting a job anywhere. People were shouting in the street if I went out, it
was just horrific. My husband, he went to work, and I remember him coming home and
saying that they’re all pitying him at work because they've heard about... he’s married
to the woman who was in the papers who stole off the pensioners, and they were
pitying him. Now he’s... as Janet knows, he’s a very proud chap, and he was totally
demoralised.
Nichola Arch, Participant
Even after, even when I was proved innocent, not one reporter...they didn’t print that.
No, they weren't interested in that. It was only, you know... so I was still known. I was
so glad that we moved away. Twenty miles away, and I’ve never returned to that place
since. We had absolutely nothing. We’d moved into my parents. You know, one minute
we had a little home. It wasn’t much but it was our first rung on the ladder. We had
business. We had a future of getting married, possibly having children, and building a
business. And all of a sudden, we were living with our parents, with my parents, with
absolutely nothing. Other than a lorry driver’s wage that we were trying to save up.
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Nichola Arch, Participant
That's right.
Nichola Arch, Participant
Yes. You go from what you think is a success.
GRO
Timecode: 01:06:00
Nichola Arch, Participant
Well, I went to school. I went to university. I did well and I just think, why ever did I stop
teaching? Why ever did I go to the Post Office in the first place?
Nichola Arch, Participant
Yes. You can’t though, can you? Actually yes, financially I was what I thought was up
and coming, possibly successful future set out. I felt like I’d ruined it for everybody. My
parents had children back home again. I bet they never believed that would happen.
You know, everything had gone. Back to square one.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
If we think about specifically then, the employment thing. Which a few of you, I
think all three of you have mentioned in one... but if we could just sum up the
impact on your employment or employability and your own development and so
on. How would you... I wanted to start with you lyou went through to
retirement from these events. How would you, in terms of your work trajectory,
how would you describe the impact that’s had on you? Because you were self-
employed, weren’t you?
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GRO
Timecode: 01:08:00
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Yes.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Nicki, if you can just sort of, quickly paint a picture of what happened to you in
employment terms, from this happening to where you are today. If we can get
that impact.
Nichola Arch, Participant
The jobs I was qualified for I couldn’t apply for, because the minute you mentioned
anything about a pending criminal, you know, a court case, they wouldn’t employ you
anyway. So, I was basically unemployed for two years. Waiting, just waiting. I couldn't
get a job for the first two years of anything. Plus, I was waiting to be sent to Crown
Court and we’d already established that I was potentially being sent to jail. So, I was ill,
and I mean ill. Like I said, I wouldn’t even leave the house and I was on a ridiculous
amount of medication ... but once the court case had been done, then I could get
employment, but I couldn’t go back to the same village. Not that I wanted to, because
up until then, every court appearance I did was in the newspapers.
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Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
ll come back to that issue in a sec then. That’s important. Thank you. And
in terms of employment then. Do you want to just describe briefly what the
impact was?
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Right. Okay. So, let’s move onto the subject that you were mentioning, both Nicki
and the others. About how people felt about you. How other people felt about you
and your kind of image or reputation. I’d just like you to paint me the picture of
the impact that all of this has had on that. Maybe Janet if you want to talk about
that first.
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Timecode: 01:12:00
Janet Skinner, Participant
You know, people saying, ‘Oh I saw a picture of your mam in the paper. She was in the
paper for nicking that money, wasn’t she? From the Post Office’, and its still today.
Even with everything that’s going on today, people still assume that you are that person
that stole that money from the Post Office. Even though theft was never a part of the
conviction.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Can you just tell us when was the most recent time? Just to paint a picture of
that happening.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Right. Okay, and) GRO does this resonate with you? Or is it not something
that’s affected you?
Timecode: 01:14:00
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
GRO
So, when you Say the' [When you say they, who’s the they who...
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Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
And the association ... do you talk to them about the association with the
Horizon issues or... how do you... what impact has it had on you and the way
you deal with other people?
Timecode: 01:16:00
, Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator #2 II
Okay. So, Nicki, you’ve mentioned a couple of times about this issue of sort of
your reputation locally and beyond. Do you want to sort of paint us a picture
perhaps? I’m interested to hear of any particular events of where it’s happened.
Just so that Sir Wyn can get a flavour for it. For what happened and how it feels.
Nichola Arch, Participant
The neighbours I thought I once had were non-existent. Nobody would speak. People
at, my husband Steve’s work were... because they'd read it all in the local papers and
like I said, they were full of, ‘Oh dear I’m so sad to hear this mate. What are you going
to do?’. You know, and ‘/s she going to go to prison?’, and you think, they only want the
scandal. You know. Do these people really care? I don’t know. You lose faith in
absolutely anybody and everything, because it feels like nobody is on your side. You're
trapped in this nightmare and can’t get out, because there’s solicitors and things.
They're all saying, this is the Post Office, this is the crime. You know, even my mum
said, ‘Oh my god, you do realise this is against the Queen’, because you know, that is
how the Post Office was seen. It was just... and I’ve never ever done anything wrong in
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my life. So, for my family it was absolutely shattering. My brother was a corporal in the
army at the time, and he’s like, ‘Oh my god, I hope they don’t hear about it here’. You
know, and I found that people tried to avoid knowing me. Because they didn’t want to
be associated.
Timecode: 01:18:00
GRO
Nichola Arch, Participant
My hubby's grandparents were in the same village, and I could see just from them. It
was like, you know, ‘Can he not go and meet somebody else? We really don’t want to
be associated with this’. You know. That’s because it was held in such high regard. The
Post Office was one of the elite businesses to work for. So respectable, so you know...
Nichola Arch, Participant
Well, it was a done deal, wasn't it? You’re told over and over again. That is what you
are ...and the neighbours, you know. Your neighbours, your local friends. All think the
same. Or you feel that they do. I’m not 100% sure they did, but you feel like, well if
them people can accuse you of this, then anything could happen now. Anything. It’s so
absurd, it’s so out of the norm. It’s so... it feels so surreal that you don’t underestimate
anything that can be afflicted on you after. You’re almost scared to death all the time.
That's how I felt. I thought, no, I’m only safe in this house.
Nichola Arch, Participant
I just stayed at my mum's house. I was like a child. I just thought, hang on, I’m 29, 30
years old. Back living with my parents. Terrified to go outside. You know, and then they
got really ill. Then I felt that was my fault as well. My dad got... went into sort of serious
illness, which turned out fatal in the end.
Timecode: 01:20:00
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Nichola Arch, Participant
I thought that was my fault because all of this that I’d put on him and the shame. I
believed everywhere in the land knew who I was. By the end of it, I was convinced
everybody in the world would know, or think that I’m this woman who stole from the
Post Office and it was just the most heinous crime that you could ever do. That you'd
steal off the Queen. You know. I just... partially sending my own self crazy I think ...and
for the local papers and the coverage of it all, because it was in a village. Or a little town
like this. This was major, major scandal. You know, this was like front page news. This
never happened around here, you know, and I was to blame. So yes. The illnesses, as
Geoffrey said, you just get a nervous wreck. I landed up in hospital. I landed up taking
overdoses and so on and so forth. Just for it to end. I mean me and Steve arranged to
drive over a cliff, you know.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
I want to go onto the... I want to go onto the health thing in a sec in proper detail.
Nichola Arch, Participant
That dictates as well, where your mind is at, because you don’t see things. You don’t
see life in the same way. When you're accused of something like that, for no reason
whatsoever and you're innocent. How on earth do you see the world as a fair place to
be in? How do you move forward and think, well this is actually a normal life? The same
as anyone else would have. When this has been inflicted on you. I don’t know how you
do.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
want to sort of just explain a little bit more about that social impact on you? You
talked about your daughter and everything.
Timecode: 01:22:00
So just tell us a bit more a flavour of that blanking and how it made you feel at
the time?
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Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Yes. You mentioned before about it being a message on social media in the
group. To what extent does social media play a different part to the
neighbourhood if you want to think of it that way? In your view.
Nichola Arch, Participant
I had the same problem because I’d done relief work. I was well known across sort of
Gloucestershire if you like. I'd done relief work within a 10-mile radius. All the way
around. So, it felt everywhere. You couldn't go anywhere without anybody knowing.
Absolutely.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Can I just ask you; GRO I you know you mentioned before that somebody
contacted you recently on social media and queried what had happened or you
know, said who you were. I wonder if you could paint for Sir Wyn, just a picture
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of the context of that. I mean how did they... how did that conversation get
instigated?
a sot erin thornton intercession ime otonneisokedimirerr nto aisnneaieatoninincieeimiteed
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Okay. Right. Thank you. Okay it’s half past four and I did promise you a quick
break. So, we’ve gone up through some of the impact. We’ve gone through sort
of your reputation both locally and online and things. So, what I’d like to talk
about now is a little bit about the health impact. Which you’ve all mentioned to
one degree or another and I wonder, as far as you can unravel them. If
with perhaps the physical health impact that it’s had on you. I wonder;
would you like to just tell us about some of the physical health, maybe
together if you want. But the physical first, if you can.
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Timecode: 01:28:00
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Okay. Thank you. We’Il come back to that in a sec. Thank you. $0,'G ), in terms
of the physical impact of all of this, the physical health impact. How would you
describe them to Sir Wyn?
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
So, if you were to sum up the difference the difference that you have physically
now, having been through these events, compared to what you perhaps would
have been without them. How would you characterise that for Sir Wyn to
understand?
Timecode: 01:30:00
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thing I don’t like... the thing that I don’t like the most is never being able to work again.
That has just hindered me a lot. A hell of a lot.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Yes. Thank you. So, you’ve had those diagnoses and things. How much time has
it taken up for you to deal with the health issues, if you know what I mean?
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Right. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Sorry, before I move on then. So,
does it cause pain?
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a ec mR
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Right. Okay. Thank you
impacts for yourself. Do you want to describe those?
Nichola Arch, Participant
Yes, the two years that I spent waiting, waiting for trial. Mentally, the mental health had
gone. I'd totally withdrawn from life basically and I’m still medicated now.
Timecode: 01:34:00
Nichola Arch, Participant
I was diagnosed with depression then, and I’ve never been able to snap out of it if you
like. But... big but, everything is stable now. So that allows me to enjoy life as much as
possible. As soon as it happened ... not long after, I had a lot of body pain and things,
and then I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis in my feet, in my ankles, in my
knees, hips and shoulders. Then I got fibromyalgia on top of that. Then I had to have a
radical hysterectomy because I’d got an infection inside and it all had to be removed.
Luckily, I'd had one child in 2005, but I wasn’t able to have children after that. So that
was that. Although I would have done, obviously if I could, but I couldn't. Both joints in
my feet have dissolved completely and now they're steel pinned and fused so I can’t
bend my toes at all. They're all... they had to be... the joints taken out then metal poles
and screws fixed on, so they’re fixed in one place. They don’t bend, so I can only wear
flat shoes because my toes don't bend at all. IBS I’ve got as well...but a year after my
trial, I got a job. I trained again and become a social worker. I was a social worker right
up to when I was 49 and then I suffered with too many falls which was becoming a
hazard at work. I broke my shoulder and broke my knee where I kept losing my balance
and falling.
Timecode: 01:36:00
Nichola Arch, Participant
A lot of it is because I have no feeling in the bottom of my feet, because I’ve got
neuropathy in my feet now as well, due to them being metal basically. So, I retired. I’m
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now coming up to 51 in June. I've made good friends I jis one of my best friends
now, and that, I thrive on as well. I think if I can’t get anything at all out of this, I’ve got
a real precious friend and that gives me strength. I know it gives I ‘strength as well.
If ever we’re down, we just ring each other and kick each other up the backside and
say, come on. Come on. Keep going. We've just got to. It’s that keep going. One day, I
Nichola Arch, Participant
No, we do rely on each other a lot really. Probably more than we should, but it keeps us
going.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Can I ask you... can I ask you a question then Nicki i ~~GRO_, H
‘ he said it wasn’t directly attributable to
Nichola Arch, Participant
I believe it was.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Can you tell me about that? Tell me your view.
Nichola Arch, Participant
I have a different view td_ ‘And I'd say it to 'as well. That I blame them
entirely. We have no idea the sort of people we’d been if we hadn’t been shunted with
all this. You know, to me, we had the get up and go. We started the businesses. We
had the future. We were looking forward and upwards. So why on earth would we be
inactive and overweight and all those things that were associated with it ...
Timecode: 01:38:00
Nichola Arch, Participant
...and the same wit “Nobody knows whether... if...
this... this is such a m
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Nichola Arch, Participant
Yes. You can have as strong a head as you want, but there’s only so much somebody,
an individual, can take. To me, years andyears,, = =GRO —_—s, my time.
They're all 10, 15, 20 years of somebody’s life. My son is 15 and he’s alw known
mummy as one of the Post Office women. He’s never known any different.
children, she’s the Post Office woman. They have lived with it, all consuming. All of their
lives. So, I blame them entirely, and for, ‘as well. I think no, he bought his
business, he had a holiday cottage. He had a shop. He had his accommodation. He
had his future absolutely mapped out and then it was just absolutely robbed from him.
That has to take a physical impact and emotional. I will always blame the Post Office
entirely. Full stop. No matter what justice we get. They are totally, 100% responsible for
that portion of our lives. I just want the next portion to be different to what the last was.
I'm hoping Sir Wyn is going to be part of that.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Okay. Thank you Nichola. So,; GRO we've touched on all... well, a lot of the
physical effects. I wonder if you Could talk us through, you mentioned your
journey on an emotional, psychological way. Could you tell us... could you tell us
that story in a bit more detail please?
Timecode: 01:40:00
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Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Right. How do you reflect on that no
went through?
GRO That... that process that you
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
And in terms of the person that you were then, against the person that you are
now. Psychologically, how would you characterise that change? Or that
difference?
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limelight. I did not want to be in the limelight. In a sense, to come and say I have
suffered in this way. I’m just another one. I am just another statistic really. nevertheless,
I still think that my story is relevant to other people who have been part of this issue.
Nichola Arch, Participant
Definitely.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Thank you for sharing that I I know you said that it was
mainly a ‘or you, but how would you describe the sort of
psychological impact that you’ve had since then? Since it all started.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
So, to someone like me, who has never experienced it. What does it feel like to be
living through that?
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Right. Can I just pick up on something that you both...? I think you!
both mentioned about a difficulty in trusting people.
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Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
So, Nicki, I noticed you were nodding in agreement with a lot of that... do you
want to tell us about your sort of psychological journey. The emotional impact.
Nichola Arch, Participant
I don’t trust anyone now. Full stop.
Timecode: 01:50:00
Nichola Arch, Participant
I refuse to put myself in that position to be let down because I had so much faith that
the truth will out, and yes in all fairness, I think it was easier for me to move on in the
respect that I proved I was innocent, and a jury agreed with me. So that... that changes
it. So, I thought no, justice has been done without a doubt, but then you know, the
Crown Court was two years later. I walked out with nothing and the Post Office said,
‘Oh right. Okay’. I had no apology. Nothing, you know ... from them. It was well, ‘Nicki is
alright because she didn’t go to prison’. You know, and I’ve had no acknowledgement
from the Post Office, ever. Even though... and that makes me bitter. I don’t trust
anyone. I don’t trust my own husband. I will not trust anyone. If it turns out I can trust
them, it’s a bonus, but people say, ‘Oh you won't stay married if you don’t trust them’.
I've been married 23 years. I’ve stayed married, but I don’t trust him, and I’ve always
been honest about that. I can’t afford to trust anybody and the reason me and Janet are
passionate about this inquiry so to speak, although it may seem that our stories are in
court cases are right at the end. All the damage is done leading up to that. Then it’s the
final nail. The court case and prison and things like that, but the impact it has when
you're accused of something like that.
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Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
So, you mentioned that you were in such a bad way you didn’t leave the house
for 19 months and things. So, do you want to just briefly sort of tell us how you
passed into that phase and how you came out the other side?
Nichola Arch, Participant
To be honest, it was very odd. I just kept looking at my husband and thinking, there’s
something wrong with him. There’s something wrong with him. I wrote a letter to the
doctor and said, I don’t know what it is, but I think there’s something wrong with my
husband. I wrote a three-page letter. She actually rang me up and said, ‘/ need to see
you today’, and I said, ‘There’s nothing wrong with me’. She said, ‘Yes. There is. I need
to see you today’. I can guarantee you now if she hadn't have done that. I wouldn’t be
here. I went to see her and obviously, I was quite heavily medicated then and things. All
I was arranging was how we could end our lives prior to the trial. That was the plan. My
husband was more than happy to go with that plan. He said, ‘/f you don’t want to go to
Crown Court, you just say the word and we'll do it’. So, we had this, and believe it or
not, that almost gave me a bit of... I've got something else. There’s something I can
control here. I can actually turn around and say, ‘Right, today is the day. Let’s do it’, and
because I didn’t have children, it was a serious contender.
Timecode: 01:54:00
Nichola Arch, Participant
A very serious contender. You know, we lay in bed many a time and thought of the
quickest, easiest ways we could end our lives together so we wouldn't have to go
through going to court, because the court, that whole thing, was just so alien to me.
We'd never had the police at the door. We’d never been questioned. We'd never been
stopped for anything. Then all of a sudden, I’m in Bristol Crown Court. You know, for
four days, being absolutely put through the mill. You know, and your life is in their
hands. I was fortunate in the fact that I stuck to my guns, but I always had it in the back
of my mind, if this goes wrong, I’m out. This is going to end, and my husband is coming
with me. So, I’m not even on my own and that, believe it or not, that gave me the
strength to do another day. Let’s do another day. Let’s see what happens tomorrow.
Let's try another day, and before you know it, the months have gone and we've got a
trial date. Even the day before, my husband was saying, ‘Do you really, really think this
is worth it?’ I said, ‘Yes, it is.’, because I could prove them wrong, and it will stop it. I
genuinely believed it would stop it from happening to somebody else, because that’s
the nature of person I am. I’m quite a soppy devil, and that’s how I become a social
worker. You know, it mattered to me that they were going to go through to treat other
people this way. I thought no, somebody has got to stop them. Somebody has got to do
something, somewhere. I thought no, I’m going to give it a go. I’m going to go to Crown
Court and give it a good go and see. At least it could stop somebody else from going
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through, because that would have been the end I think.
Timecode: 01:56:00
Nichola Arch, Participant
I just don’t think I would have had the strength that und.
Nichola Arch, Participant
She’s got her children. She had her children so that was what kept her alive.
Nichola Arch, Participant
We talk all the time, and I know the strength both of us have found now over the years
because I’ve... I’ve slowly built things back up again. I was a social worker, I’ve worked
hard. I went straight back to work as soon as I had my baby. Within four months I was
back at work. The only regret now is my dad died 15 years ago. So, he doesn’t know
any of this is going on. I was a daddy’s girl, and that is my... out of all of it, that is my
biggest regret. That he doesn’t know that Judge Fraser has said you were wrong, and
they were right, and nothing I can do can change that ...but, you know, we're through
the other side. We will carry on fighting me, and/GRo}and it is for the likes of, GRO I
who doesn’t feel comfortable being in that public ye. We're doing it as much for him as
we are for ourselves, because they cannot carry on taking lives in this way. It’s the most
vile thing I think, and it has to stop. Whether it ever will, I don’t know.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Right. Okay. Thank you. So. [ just to come back to you for a minute. I
know you talked about the dark days. Bit similar to Nicki there. I wonder, how do
you reflect on those now? I suppose to put it another way really, what echoes do
you see of those times now? Or have you totally got through the other side do
you think?
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Timecode: 01:58:00
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
That subject of family was something I was going to ask about. You’ve summed it
of you as a family member and how your family members feel about it. How
would you say the impact has been from that perspective?
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Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Yes, and you mentioned a couple of times about the effect it had on your
relationships. How would you sum that up for Sir Wyn to sort of see the pattern
that that’s had?
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
How was that... how has that shown itself over the years?
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Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Nicki, how would you... the same question really, about the family impact. Both
on you as a family member and on your family around you? How would you sum
that up for Sir Wyn?
Nichola Arch, Participant
Husband is in the room now. So, but he’s going to stay out of the way. You don’t want
to hear his opinion.
Timecode: 02:06:00
Nichola Arch, Participant
He’s angry. Angry. Still as angry today as he was 20 years ago. It never goes away.
There always, you know. will say the same, because we've had to... it's taken so
long to get this to court. To get it heard. To get it done, and different things going on.
We've got the Ombudsman going on. We've got the inquiry going on, so on and so
forth. We live and breathe it every day. It’s never gone away, because we haven't been
able to get closure, have we? None of us. The fight has gone on an abnormal length of
time with a hideous amount of money and cost. Cost to health as well. For sure. If this
was dealt with a long time ago, or if the Post Office had actually realised after my court
case that maybe they should look at other options, then things could have been so
personality to! Ro! as to, if you don’t fight to get a change, then nothing’s going to
change. They’té Going to get away with it, and they continue to get away with it as far
as I’m concerned. Now.
Nichola Arch, Participant
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Definitely. So, there’s still jobs for us to do. I’ve got a 15-year-old, he wants to, believe it
or not, go in the police force. He’s sort of doing his... he’s just done his mock GCSEs
now. He wants to go to University and go on into the police and what not.
So yes, there’s loads of bills forthcoming in the future no doubt, but me and :
know. We will carry on and carry on, fighting, until something is done and things
change.
Timecode: 02:08:00
Nichola Arch, Participant
We need our lives to change you know, and this is another reason why we thought no,
we will go to Sir Wyn and let him hear our story because you have to, because they're
the sort of people you rely on to support you through it and to see that change is going
to come. It’s just a matter of... that fight’s got to keep going. We cannot give up. My
family is probably the same. My 15-year-old don’t know any different. His mummy is
associated with the Post Office. Although I’ve never, ever worked for the Post Office
since before he was even born, but he doesn’t know any better because every single
day, every single week, every single month, is consumed by what's going on with one
thing or another to do with the court cases, the trials, the inquiry. We never ever get
closure because nobody is able or in a position to say, ‘Right. Let’s treat these people
like human beings. Let’s actually acknowledge what they’ve gone through’. So yes, my
husband's still very angry. I’m busy fighting and will carry on doing so. My 15-year-old
will probably say to you, ‘Oh my god, I can’t wait ‘til my mum talks about something
else’.
Nichola Arch, Participant
.../...and her an IGROI on the phone talking Post Office all the time drives me nuts’.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Can I just ask, just to move on slightly then. So, we’ve talked about sort of
friends and your status and so on. How does it feel in terms of your sort of social
life and wider life and recreation? Just those sort of other things that happen in
life. How has it impacted on all those sorts of things?
Nichola Arch, Participant
Are you talking to me?
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
To all of you, yes. Just the impact it’s had on the whole life.
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Nichola Arch, Participant
Timecode: 02:10:00
Nichola Arch, Participant
I don’t like particularly going out to people I don’t know. I’m quite... believe it or not, it
sounds like I'll chat to anybody. I’m the opposite, and I won’t mix with anybody and it
drives my husband nuts and he’s like, ‘Well give people a chance’. No, I don’t want
anybody in my life at all. I’d rather them stay out there because I don’t need anybody.
Nichola Arch, Participant
The judgement.
Nichola Arch, Participant
Is it worth it? No.
Nichola Arch, Participant
No. It’s not worth it.
Nichola Arch, Participant
You find out. Once you get something like this happen to you, you find out.
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Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
L would you like to carry on with that? Sorry, just to explain a little bit more
about what you mean by that about the social life?
GRO
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Sorry, carry on.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Yes. We’ve covered a lot of ground already. I was just wondering, are there any
sort of impacts that we haven’t covered? Things that are different about you now
that wouldn’t have been different had this never happened?
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comments you’d like to make about what Janet just said?
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Nichola Arch, Participant
i what do you think winning looks like? Can I ask that question? Because I’m
not sure... I don’t... I sort of differ in that sense than you. When you say, ‘Oh / can see
us being the winners’. I can’t see that. I’d like to know how you look at it.
Timecode: 02:16:00
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Nichola Arch, Participant
They'd have to have a heart for that to happen.
Timecode: 02:18:00
Nichola Arch, Participant
Still do.
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Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
I wonder, can I ask...
Nichola Arch, Participant
I think we all want... I think we all... because we're all different personalities and we've
all got different stories. Maybe we all need different things from it to get closure. No
apology is going to wash with me. I’m not interested in anything any of them have got to
say full stop. I don’t want to hear them.
Nichola Arch, Participant
No. I don’t want revenge either. I’m not a revengeful person. It suits no-one. You know,
there’s no point saying well let’s see if we can get them in court. Let’s see if we can do
that. Move on. The only way we're going to move on, is to move on. What I need is to
have is the future I was planning to have, that they've taken away. I want my future
back. I don’t care how we get there, but we haven't got there yet and until we do, we
will carry on and carry on. Because... and I also find the biggest offence I find, and I'll
apologise to Sir Wyn now because it’s not meant anything directly to you whatsoever,
but everybody is using Judge Fraser's report as evidence. Whether it be the Bays
Committee, whether it be MPs or whatever. Everyone is using that as a valuable tool,
which I’ve read, word for word, and it is a fantastic piece of work and we were very
lucky to have Judge Fraser oversee our case.
Timecode: 02:22:00
Nichola Arch, Participant
Now we have paid, all the postmasters includin GRO Every single individual in
that litigation. We've paid for that report. We paid £40 million pounds for that report. So
how does everyone feel they can just pick it up and use it and read it to do as they want
with it?
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Nichola Arch, Participant
£47 million sorry, but that’s something we’ve achieved, you know. Don’t get me wrong,
you know, he did a fabulous job and we've achieved that. We wouldn’t have achieved
that if we’d all have laid down and done nothing. That took every single one of us. Not
just that person or just that person. Every single one of us. Nobody has got a
conscience when they use that report. You know, I’ve seen... I hate to name drop, but
Paul Scully say, ‘Oh, well I’ve used that report and it is a fantastic piece of work and...’.
That's our report that we've paid for. He’s no right to claim anything over it, and I think
no, we've paid for that information to come out. You know, that’s 550 people that the
Post Office has excluded from any compensation scheme or any future negotiation or
anything like that. I got less than £8,000 for 20 years. All they're doing is saying, ‘Well,
we'll read Judge Fraser’s report. Well yes, I totally recommend people do, but it’s our
piece of work that we've paid for. So why does the government feel that they own it?
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
_Can I ask you a question about something that you touched on there, Nicki?
I } both have in a way. It’s about the time that it’s taken. So
“ObVIOUSIy If SOiié senses it’s a long while ago. I just wondered, to what extent
does all these impacts that we’ve talked about. Are they dependent on the fact
that it has taken a long time for it to get to where we are now even?
Timecode: 02:24:00
Nichola Arch, Participant
I'm afraid that it takes the same amount of time again, aren’t we? We'll all be dead by
the time we get to the...
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Speaking from your personal point of view. So, II you’ve been through all
these things you’ve been through. To what extent is the impact due to the time
it’s taken?
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Nichola Arch, Participant
It's all about power and money though, isn’t it? It’s power and money.
Nichola Arch, Participant
It's not about human beings. It’s not about human beings. They can’t afford to...
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Can I just ask... can I just ask then, you know...? We don’t have lots and lots of
time left, but I’m just interested Nicki. If you were to be in front of... the same
room as the Chief Executive of Post Office Ltd now. You’re talking about
humans. Let’s imagine you know, person-to-person...
Nichola Arch, Participant
Well...
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Sorry, just let me finish.
Nichola Arch, Participant
I'll try and remain as polite as possible.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
If you were to be able to say something to him that would prevent this happening.
Nichola Arch, Participant
I would like to know how he thinks we should move on.
Timecode: 02:28:00
Nichola Arch, Participant
How do we... how does he... and I’m not interested in whether they've got this or
they've got that and they’ve got a successful job. They've accused of us of this and all
that. It's done. We are where we're at, at the end of the day. This is it. We only get one
crack at this. If COVID has taught us anything, our lives could be taken at any time.
That's one thing you can learn from it. So, my thing is, how can we move on? All this
closure. What do we get closure from? Where does closure come from? Because we
feel like we've let all our families down, we're not providing the life that we were
anticipating for them, and our children are now grown up and still living it with us. We're
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not providing them the life we had planned out. The Post Office have just walked away.
They've said, ‘Yes, we’ve been found guilty and yes...’. You know, I’ve got a different
view to Geoffrey. They have acknowledged that they’ve been found out, and it was the
computer. There’s no dispute there. Horizon is rubbish and they've got it wrong.
They've admitted they’ve got it wrong, then they've just walked away. Where... what
happens to us all? We're all human beings with lives that have been absolutely kicked
into touch. So, you think, well hang on a minute. Yes, you’ve been found guilty. Judge
Fraser has done all that work for it to be just chucked in a drawer.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
So, if I was the Chief Exec, and I said to you what you said t
does winning look like?’ What would you tell me?
Nichola Arch, Participant
Winning looks like, for them to give back what they have stolen. They’re the thieves and
we are the innocent ones.
Timecode: 02:30:00
Nichola Arch, Participant
All this money that people have put in to put the balance right, try and get the balance
right. We all tried to put it right, but we ran out of money. Where has all that money
gone? We haven't been given it back. That's theft.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Okay GRO can l ask you the same question. If you were with the Chief Exec
Nichola Arch, Participant
We don't want to live with it for another two, do we?
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Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
A few of you... well, a few times you’ve mentioned, you know, it’s just words. So,
what... tell me what they could do. Or Sir Wyn could urge them to do so that it
isn’t just words.
Nichola Arch, Participant
It's all they can do.
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Nichola Arch, Participant
I agree because they can’t do anything else.
Nichola Arch, Participant
They haven't got a magic wand. They can’t change what's happened. They can’t put
ur health back,
GRO
Nichola Arch, Participant
That's already done.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Okay. I think I hear that very clearly. I think Sir Wyn does as well. He may want to
refer back to that as he does his closing comments in a few minutes. A lot of
things you’ve said, I can totally see the financial thing. Who wouldn’t? In terms of
quality of life impact on you, if you had to sum up all of this in terms of where
your quality of life is. If you use that as your marker, how would you describe the
quality of life impact that this has all had on you? Just in two sentences.
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Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
The potential?
“Nichola Arch, Participant.
To me, you value things that you didn’t realise was more important. Health and things
are far more important, and if you don’t...
Nichola Arch, Participant
Yes. You know. That's what you learn most of all, is what to value. It’s very minimal
because everything else can be taken away in a second.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
You talked about the way that you’ve chan
couple of quick things. One of you, I think was talking about regret and
you were nodding about the sense of regr ie sense of responsibility. Even
though you’re all extremely clear in been proven it would seem. You weren’t
responsible, that’s the main thing isn’t it? So, I’m just interested if you could tell
Sir Wyn why you have the feeling of responsibility and regret? When you know it
wasn’t your fault? Can you just unravel that a bit for him so he can understand
the impact that it’s had in that sense?
eople, you know inside. A
Nichola Arch, Participant
Human nature. Just the public. The press. Just people’s natural response to it. The
Post Office’s brand was so well thought of, and the minimal reporting. We say yes, me
and! GRO /have been out there quite a bit trying to get our stories heard, but you don't
see it on the news. You don't see people being interviewed regarding it. If it wasn’t for
Nick Wallis it never, ever would have come out. I still believe now you would never,
ever see anything about it. It would have all been hushed up. You know, even the High
Court... you think all the work that’s been done there. It’s never to be heard of again...
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Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
So, _ GRO I how do you feel? I think you mentioned before.
Timecode: 02:36:00
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
How do you feel in terms of why you feel that regret still and what could be done
about that?
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Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
how do you sum up all of this? As we’ve... in terms of your feelings now
and the fact that you’ve sort of felt responsible or felt all this sense of regret and
all these complex emotions?
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
So, my final main question to all of you, is really a question on behalf of Sir Wyn.
What would be the one sort of, one sentence thing you would want him to learn
from your experiences about the human impact?
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Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Okay. Thank you, and same question to you Nicki. What would be your one or
two sentence headline to Sir Wyn to take away and learn from your case?
Timecode: 02:42:00
Nichola Arch, Participant
Probably I’d question the justice system. Does anything happen once a High Court
hearing has come to a head and a judge makes his statement and his verdict? Is it
actually meant to be acted upon? Is it ever going to mean anything? Because at the
moment, to us, nothing has changed. Yet we've got a High Court judge. A very
respected one, has done some brilliant work for what seems, or feels, like no reason
whatsoever. Everyone has just walked away with nothing and nothing has changed. I
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don’t believe anything has happened to date that is going to enforce that change
because it’s all done behind closed doors.
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Right. Thank you. So, I'd like to hand back to Sir Wyn just to make any final
comments. But on behalf of myself and Sarah, thank you so much all of you for
sharing so openly and such clear opinions. Thank you very much. I’ll hand back
to Sir Wyn now.
Sir Wyn Williams, Chairman
Well, first of all. Thank you, Jerome, for guiding the three participants in an expert way
and teasing from them in the way I knew you would, such valuable information. Then
obviously, thanks very much to the three of you for being so prepared to answer what
could have been thought of as quite difficult personal questions with such openness.
Timecode: 02:44:00
Sir Wyn Williams, Chairman
It takes a great deal of courage to do it in an open forum. I know that two of you have
done it before, but it doesn’t make it that much easier to do it again because each time
imay not have done it before so it would have been even more
difficult for him. So, thanks very much for doing it. If I were appearing as the judge in a
drama on television, I’d now produce words of wisdom that would send you home
happy, thinking that man has got a grip of all this .... but this isn’t fiction. This is just part
of my learning process. So, I’m not going to try and sum up in two or three wonderful
sentences how I’m going to fix things for you. That would be ridiculous, quite frankly.
What I can tell you is everything I hear and read will be subject to the most critical
scrutiny. My task is to scrutinise the past, to make judgements about the past and to
use the past as a springboard for the future. I can give you this assurance, that to the
best of my ability, I will do that. I am deluding myself if I think that my report will be
greeted with fanfares all around the country. Anything, any kind of reaction may happen
as a consequence of it. So, the best promise that I can give to you is that I am going to
give it my best shot. So, thank you very much for participating.
Nichola Arch, Participant
Thank you.
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Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Thank you Wyn. Thank you all.
Timecode: 02:46:00
Jerome Norris, Lead Facilitator
Thank you to all our observers for committing the time. I hope it’s been a helpful
exercise and mainly to you three, I hope it’s been of some use and you felt you’ve
been able to give your views.
Nichola Arch, Participant
Yes. Definitely. Thank you very much.
Thank you. Take care everyone. We’ll close the meeting.
Nichola Arch, Participant
All the best.
Sir Wyn Williams, Chairman
Bye-bye everybody.
Nichola Arch, Participant
Bye.
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