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Witness Name: Mr Terence Seeney
Statement No. : WITN0328_01
Exhibits: None
Dated: 11/ 3/2022
THE POST OFFICE HORIZON INQUIRY
FIRST WITNESS STATEMENT OF MR TERENCE SEENEY
I, MR TERENCE SEENEY WILL SAY as follows:
INTRODUCTION
1. I am grateful to the Chair to be invited to provide a “human impact” statement,
concerning the physical, psychological, emotional, reputational and_ financial
consequences to me and my family of being held responsible for shortfalls shown by
the Horizon IT system and Post Office Limited’s actions toward me and my family.
The initial paragraphs below provide a brief summary of my background, and provide
context to the detail of the human impact of the Horizon scandal on me and my
family. This statement does not reflect a full account of my experiences or those of
my family and if necessary or required I will provide further witness statement
evidence.
ra I am 68 years old, married to my wife and we have 2 children. I live at
land I have lived at this address for approximately
18 years.
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BACKGROUND
3. I have spent the majority of my working career self-employed. I started out as a self-
employed carpenter, which involved a mix of private work and working on building
sites. I was a self-employed carpenter for over 30 years and alongside this I also
worked part time as a football referee.
4, I then became a manager at a holiday park in Dorchester, I did this for 3 years. My
role involved running the park and overseeing the maintenance.
5. I was looking for a career change, something that did not involve working in all
weather conditions, when I came across an advertisement in the Daltons weekly
magazine to become a subpostmaster in the local village. I thought running a post
office was a good career opportunity, it was a good business to take on at the time
and it was something that could take me through to retirement and possibly beyond.
6. When I was applying to become the subpostmaster, I was interviewed and advised
by the Post Office that we would be working together and I would have the full
support of the Post Office. I felt confident in taking on this role and I was convinced
that it was a partnership so pursued with my application to become the
subpostmaster.
7. I was a subpostmaster of Bere Regis Sub-post office, 85a West Street, Bere Regis,
Warham, Dorset, BH20 7HL from February 2002 to July 2006. I bought the business
from the previous subpostmaster and I had to take over the 99 year lease. In order
to raise the funds to purchase the branch, I re-mortgaged to release £30,000 and
took out an additional loan in the region of £45,000 - £48,000.
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8. I operated a retail business from the premises selling stationery, gifts and cards. I
employed my wife, Cindy Miller, and three staff members who worked part time.
TRAINING AND SUPPORT
9. I received 4 days training from the Post Office when I took over the branch. I had a
day in Bournemouth, which was the principal training. This training covered only the
basics of the Horizon system, such as how to put things on the system and an
overview of how to use it. We then had 3 further days' training on-site with an
external trainer. This training explored some of the other functions, such as cashing
up and "Wednesday" balancing procedures.
10. The training I received was very basic. The attitude of the Post Office trainer was
simply "if you get stuck, ring the Helpline or read the manual". Neither of which were
ever helpful (details provided below). I would have been totally lost had it not been
for the part time staff who stayed on to help me after I bought the business.
11. I found the Horizon system to be quite daunting compared to the training I had
received. Horizon had a lot of functions and it was not an easy system to navigate. I
was advised by the trainers that the system would always be correct and never at
fault.
12. For any shortfalls I experienced, I was told put the figures in the suspense account
and the system will sort itself out, or if I leave it then the system will also sort itself
out. However, before I became a subpostmaster, I was not advised by the Post Office
at any stage of my application process, not even during the interview, that I would
be liable for any shortfalls that occurred.
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HELPLINE
13. I contacted the Helpline about 2-3 times a week. I mainly contacted them about
balancing and transaction queries; for example in relation to cheques and giros.
14, The Helpline was not always available and closed at certain times depending on the
day.
15. The Helpline was only able to offer advice on very basic function queries. For
anything more complicated, such as balancing queries, they were normally answered
by "Put it in the suspense account to see if Horizon rectifies itself next week, or make
up the shortfall with your own money".
16. I gave up ringing the Helpline in the end because I was always told "Horizon is
correct". I found myself having to put in more and more money to balance the
accounts. Balance day was Wednesday afternoons, I would always try to balance any
shortfalls and sometimes it would balance but the majority of the time it was still
short.
17. Overall, I found that the Helpline was not helpful with any of my queries, I felt they
were reading from a script and had no real knowledge of the Horizon system. Some
advisers did not have a clue what to actually advise so calling the Helpline was a
waste of my time, and they often told me it was only me experiencing these
problems which really made me doubt myself.
SHORTFALLS
18. In this section, I set out in very brief detail my experience of shortfalls arising from
deficiencies in the Horizon IT System, and Post Office Limited’s actions as a result.
This is only a brief introduction to those matters, in order to provide necessary
context for the explanation of the human impact which follows.
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20.
21.
22.
23.
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I regularly had to put in money to cover shortfalls of £100 - £200 when balancing.
This happened every other week, so I am not able to recall the exact details or every
shortfall. The shortfalls usually related to stamps and/or other various cash/stock
issues. I was advised by another subpostmaster to ensure that the balance was
always correct and at 0. They advised me of this because they said if I was audited
and the figures were not correct then this would be classed as fraud, and as the
Subpostmaster I would be personally liable and could even face prosecution. Ever
since I found this out, I became fearful when it came to balancing.
I believe that I put in approximately £8,000.00 - £10,000.00 of my own monies to the
business in order to make up the small shortfalls that occurred in the region of
£100.00- £200.00. I believe I had no alternative but to pay the shortfalls to ensure
that I was able to balance.
There were times that I even suspected that my employees could be stealing money
from the tills, however, upon investigation I could not find any signs of theft from my
staff. Everything seemed to be in order but I still had no idea where the shortfalls
were coming from. I would carefully double check the stock count, this meant I spent
most of my evenings at the post office after hours and would work during my lunch
break counting stock.
In fact, every Wednesday lunch (balance day) I would check the balance and stock,
just to see how we were doing. If we were short I would always put in the money
hoping that by then end of the day we would balance. However, then when I came
to do the balance in the afternoon I would always be short again. I could never
understand this as Wednesday afternoons were always quiet and it was only me
running the office, so I knew exactly what was going in and coming out.
I do however remember one particular shortfall. It was approximately one year after
leaving the post office, I received a letter demanding payment of £1,000.00 for a
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shortfall. This was in relation two foreign exchange transactions which the Post
Office claimed I did not enter into Horizon. However, I know for a fact I did because
the customer has to produce the Horizon receipt to collect their currency.
Unfortunately, all the paper work was left in the post office and I was unable to
prove otherwise. The letter was extremely threatening, as such I felt I had no option
to pay the £1000.00 otherwise I risked facing prosecution.
AUDIT AND INVESTIGATION
24. In 2004 an audit was carried out, I was given no prior notice that an audit was going
to take place, two auditors just turned up out of the blue. The auditors found that I
was about £40 short, which I had to repay to the Post Office in cash.
25; I raised the issue of the shortfalls with the auditors, but they told me that the
Horizon system was always correct.
26. I had another encounter with a Post Office employee about 6 months into my
tenure. A lady from the Post Office came in, skipped to the front of the queue,
flashed her credentials at me and old me to let her in immediately. She was very
aggressive in her tone and said ‘how dare you leave me outside, I work for the Post
Office and the Post Office comes first’. This just reinforces the attitude of the Post
Office towards their subpostmasters. The lady had come to tell me I was now going
to be opening on Thursdays, however, I informed her that was not viable and she
said this was not up for discussion and that I had to open on a Thursday, again she
was very aggressive towards me and said I had no choice in the matter because the
Post Office pay for my office.
27. I did not end up opening on Thursdays, but after this experience I realised my
business was not a partnership with the Post Office and their attitude towards me as
a subpostmaster was not one that filled me with any sort of confidence to be
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working alongside them. Even my customers commented on her awful behaviour
after she pushed passed all of them and made her way into the office.
SUSPENSION AND TERMINATION
28. I was not suspended by the Post Office. I resigned in July 2006. By this stage, I had
had enough of constantly making up shortfalls and the Post Office's unhelpful
attitude towards me.
29. I decided to resign as subpostmaster for a number of reasons. My health had started
to deteriorate, I was losing weight and becoming increasingly stressed. I also felt
bullied by the Post Office having to constantly repay the shortfalls. I took on the
branch under the impression that the Post Office would work together with me ina
mutually supportive way. However, I found the Post Office’s attitude to be very
dictatorial. The Post Office tried to force me to open on certain days and then
threatened to sack me because I had put in a pay point for my customers to pay
utility bills.
LOSSES
30. I had my business valued by Redwoods for over £90,000. I eventually sold it on the
basis of a quick sale for £74,000, making a loss of £16,000.00. My health and mental
state of mind were a priority at that time and I wanted to end everything associated
with the Post Office.
a1. Following my resignation, I was unemployed for one month which equates to lost
gross salary of around £1,334.00.
32. I had planned to run the Post Office and retail side of the business until I retired
when I reached 70 years of age. However, when I reached 65, because of the actions
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of the post office, I had no income. As such, I had to take equity release out of my
house in order to be able to remain in my home because I was only receiving a state
pension and we could not afford to move because Dorset is so expensive.
From August 2006, I began working as a carpenter and my accounts for recent years
reflect the net profit figures as follows:
a. Year ending 5 April 2012: £6,626;
b. Year ending 5 April 2013: £10,102;
c. Year ending 5 April 2014: £9,053;
d. Year ending 5 April 2015 £12,002;
e. Year ending 5 April 2016: £10,225.
The average net profit figure based on the above is £9,601.60. Assuming that I will
earn broadly similar amounts going forward, and on the basis that I previously
earned a gross annual salary of around £16,008 at the Post Office figure, I estimate
my loss of remuneration from August 2006 to my intended retirement (i.e. if I had
continued working for a further 17 years) to be in the region of £108,908.80 (i.e.-17 x
£16,008=£272,136) — (17 x £9,601.60 =£163,227.20).
I have also lost out on earnings from the retail side of the business which turned
over around £13,000 a year. I believe that this would equate to lost turnover of
£221,600 if I had continued to run the business for a further 17 years until I retired
as planned. I therefore estimate my losses to be approximately £331,842.80.
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36. I also suffered an additional loss of £10,000.00. The sum was taken from my
mortgage to pay off the credit cards used for the business.
CIVIL AND CRIMINAL PROCEEDINGS
37. The Post Office did not pursue civil or criminal proceedings against me for the
recovery of the alleged shortfalls. However, I received a threatening letter from the
Post Office, as detailed above demanding payment of an alleged shortfall.
38. The actions of the Post Office made me fear being prosecuted if I did not pay back
the shortfalls or balance at 0.
HUMAN IMPACT
39. I suffered serious problems with the Horizon system, including the alleged shortfalls.
The alleged shortfalls were a regular occurrence and it made me highly suspicious of
my staff.
40. In hindsight, I greatly regret how I treated my staff as a result of the alleged shortfalls.
I went to the extent of searching their bags as they finished their shifts, it made me
really uncomfortable to even thinking that it could be one of my staff. This added
considerably to my stress. I also checked my staff’s counters and upon a thorough
investigation I could not find anything that suggested any member of staff was taking
money. I had double checked everything, as such I was left with no other option but to
think that the Horizon system must be at fault and responsible for causing the errors.
41. I did not participate in the mediation scheme. I was a party to the group litigation
against Post Office Limited, and as such I am excluded from the historical shortfall
scheme.
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43.
44,
45.
46.
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When I started working with the Post Office, I trusted them as an organisation, I
believed I was in good hands by working for the Post Office. I was made to believe that
any problems that were occurring were down to me or a member of staff. The
helpline genuinely made me believe that my branch was the only one experiencing
shortfalls. I was told the system is always right, therefore, if it says I am short, then I
must be short and have to pay back the money. I felt that I was inadequate and not up
to the job of running the post office.
I always believed that my role as subpostmaster was a joint venture between myself
and the Post Office. I soon realised that this was not the case. The Post Office had no
interest in working with me, but in fact worked against me by not helping me look into
the issues I was experiencing and instead just demanded money from me. I was
completely on my own when any issues occurred. The Post Office relied solely on the
Horizon system and never thought to even challenge it once. I also reached out to the
NSFP for support and again I received no help.
During my time working for the Post Office, I had heard stories of how the Post Office
had treated other subpostmasters when dealing with alleged shortfalls and it was
horrific. These subpostmasters were forced to pay back large sums of monies and
some were even being prosecuted.
Hearing these stories instilled so much fear in me that I just ended up putting in my
own money to cover any shortfalls that arose and clear the balance in an attempt to
avoid any audits and investigations.
I had to use the shop takings to make good any shortfalls in the post office. This placed
a huge strain on my finances, I had to use a credit card in order to supplement my
living expenses. Eventually, I ended up having to take out a mortgage extension in
order to pay off my credit card debt.
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The post office shortfalls crept up on me by stealth, I did not realise the severity of it
until I had to borrow money to be able to live. This caused me a lot of stress and
worry, mentally and physically I was not in a good place.
In relation to the alleged shortfall of £1,000.00 mentioned above, occurred after I had
resigned, as such I was unable to challenge the shortfall. I did not have access to any
supporting evidence as the paperwork was left in the branch. The tone of the letter
demanding this payment was very unpleasant and it was at this point I decided that I
no longer wanted anything to do with the Post Office so I just paid the money.
Working for the Post Office compromised my health. I began suffering with severe
chest pains and one Christmas I ended up being taken to A&E with suspected heart
problems. After this I had to go back to work because I could not afford to employ
anyone to run the post office while I was off sick. In the end I had to have an
angiogram (cardiac catheterisation) to find out what was causing the problem. I was
eventually diagnosed with stress and following the advice of my doctor I decided to
sell the post office.
At worst I was thinking about closing the business and declaring bankruptcy if I could
not sell the post office. I could not risk allowing my health to deteriorate any more
than it already had, working for the Post Office was the worst four years of my life.
I was suffering from extreme stress, debt and I had problems with my partner to the
point of concluding of what had been a very good relationship. I became withdrawn,
moody and very depressed. I shut my partner out and refused to discuss my problems
with her. I spent so many late nights in the post office trying to find the errors that my
wife thought I was having an affair. She had a very miserable life with me and was on
the verge of leaving me. I did not want this to happen but I was so deeply enmeshed in
my worries that I failed to see how badly the situation was affecting her. I tried to
attend some family get-togethers, but I could not take part in any social interaction
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due to the level of stress I was under. As an honest man, I felt this situation completely
destroyed me as a person at that time in my life.
52. I was a qualified football referee and even stopped this shortly after taking on the post
office because everything was taking a toll on me. I lost focus and energy and I felt I
had no choice but to give it up. I ended up spending most of my time at the post office
looking into the issues. I became completely unsociable and I was constantly worried. I
hid my worries from the local community as the post office was the village hub. Many
of my customers made remarks about how my appearance had changed, I even made
jokes about it with them but they did not know the reasons why.
53. Back in 2014, I remember I had to go and see my accountant and he said I can get rid
of any Post Office records I held as I would not need them anymore. So I went out and
bought a garden brazier and I burnt all of my records. In doing so, it was like a dark
cloud had lifted from above me. Burning my records made it seem as though those 4
years as subpostmaster and all the stress associated with that time had just
disappeared. It felt so wonderful that I opened a bottle of Champagne to celebrate. It
was such a relief to put those years behind me.
CONCLUSION
54. When I went into business with the Post Office, the role of a subpostmaster was a
highly renowned title to have within the community. I placed great trust in the Post
Office and my local community placed great trust in me as subpostmaster.
Unfortunately, this quickly changed and it began when the inadequate training was
provided by the Post Office and I was left to run the business and navigate my way
through the Horizon system with great difficulty and no support from the Post Office.
55. The Post Office did nothing to help or support me as subpostmaster, in fact all they
concerned themselves with was how they could profit off the back of my business.
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I can only describe the experience as horrific, I among other subpostmasters were not
valued or treated fairly by the Post Office. We as subpostmasters were bullied into
making the Post Office more profitable. The Post Office’s attitude towards
subpostmasters was ‘Do as you’re told we don’t want to hear anything’. The Post
Office have only ever acted in their own best interest.
I would like the Inquiry to find out exactly which parties knew what, and who was in
the wrong. I would like justice to be brought to all those who have been falsely
accused.
I would also like to see the Post Office pay the 555 proper compensation because if it
was not for the group, the Post Office would still be prosecuting innocent people to
this day.
I would also like further clarification as to what really happened, I want to know how
all of this has occurred, I would like the following questions answered:
- Were the Post office aware of that the Horizon system was faulty?
- Why didn’t the Post Office do anything about the issues with the Horizon system
that so many subpostmasters were complaining of?
- Who instructed the Helpline advisors to tell all subpostmasters they were the only
one experiencing these problems? The advisors must have spoken to hundreds of
subpostmasters to know that this was a national issue.
- Does all of this come down to the Post Office choosing to ignore the real issue and
use their power and authority to profit from innocent people?
- I want to know where all the money has gone and what happened to it?
- I would also like to know what this Inquiry is going to do — I hope it is not just
another ploy by the government to prolong the situation because a lot of us are
getting older now and some don’t know how long they have left.
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60. Someone has got to have some answers. I can honestly say working with the Post
Office was the worst time of my life.
STATEMENT OF TRUTH
I believe the contents of this statement to be true.
Dated}
Demers SE
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