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Witness name: Rita Palmer
Statement Number: WITNO5360100
Dated: 19 December 2022
POST OFFICE HORIZON IT INQUIRY
FIRST WITNESS STATEMENT OF RITA PALMER
I, Rita Palmer, will say as follows:
1.
3.
This statement responds to a request for a written witness statement made to
myself under the Inquiry Rules 2006 and concerns Phase 3 (Operation:
training, assistance, resolution of disputes, knowledge and rectification of
errors in the system) of the Inquiry.
The Inquiry believes that I hold information relevant to the issues which will be
investigated by the Inquiry. However, as it relates to events that occurred up
to twenty-six years ago, there are areas that I cannot recall and in these
cases I have said so.
This statement has been drafted by myself and in my own words.
General
4.
I left school in 1976 with eight ‘O’ levels and went to Strode College where I
studied for a Private Secretaries Certificate at college for two years. I then
worked in admin roles for the local Council and Conservative MP until I joined
Post Office Counters Ltd in 1980 to work as a counter clerk in Wells Post
Office. I worked there for about 17 years, during which time I deputised for the
Postmaster on occasions. When I started on the counter everything was
manual and accounting was with books and pencils and there was no
automation. In 1997 there was an opportunity to become a Trainer for which I
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applied and I was successful. I joined the Training team and between 1997
and 2012 I had various roles, including Trainer, Training Manager, Audit and
Training Manager. In 2012 I applied to be a Field Change Advisor as part of
the Network Transformation project and I did this role until I left the Post
Office in September 2016. I am unsure of the dates that I fulfilled each role.
. When the Horizon system was introduced (I am unsure of dates) I completed
my initial training on a one week course in Leeds before the system was rolled
out to the whole Network. I had some computer knowledge as I had done
some evening classes at Strode College to gain qualifications in Word, Excel
and Powerpoint. I had no previous knowledge of the Horizon system until this
training. The training I received was adequate for me to be able to
understand the serving and report menus and I was able to increase my
knowledge and confidence as I used it for training. I was quite comfortable
using the Horizon system as I had a good knowledge of the manual
processes and products so it felt quite intuitive. I also had support materials
describing the processes step by step if there was anything I needed to
clarify. As it was introduced, as a trainer I helped new postmasters
understand how to use the system for serving customers and completing their
accounting. I also delivered training on the Horizon system in a classroom
setting to new postmasters and counter clerks.
. Myroles in relation to the Horizon system included training new postmasters
and staff, to show and explain on Horizon how the customer serving and
daily/weekly accounting processes were used in the day to day work. I took
new users through the screens and buttons showing them how to serve
different products and services and how to complete daily and weekly
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Roles
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accounting. When the Training team and Audit team were joined together I
did both roles and Branch Horizon systems were used to check that the
accounts balanced and all the stock and cash was correct at the time of audit.
Personally I didn’t feel that the roles of Trainer and Auditor were appropriate
to combine. There are different skill sets required to train people to adapt to
different learning styles, whilst completing an audit is more process driven and
people skills are not so crucial. Some of the auditors were uncomfortable
delivering training and likewise some trainers were not comfortable
completing audits. It was a job role change that was a business decision that
we had to implement but I did not feel it was a change for the better.
in Relation to Training
With 17 years of experience working on the Post Office counter I applied for
the role as a Trainer covering the Bristol area. I completed an application
form and had a successful interview. My training to become a trainer was
initially shadowing a current trainer, and then being shadowed myself when
delivering training. Training was scheduled centrally and I would be given
notice of which branches I would be training on which dates. I can’t
remember clearly but I think when I started the training on site for new
postmasters was two weeks and then two balances but I know that was
reduced during the time I was a Trainer. As well as on site training I also
delivered classroom training to both new postmasters and new Post Office
clerks. When Horizon was introduced I received training on the system in
Leeds before I trained on site. I was in a training role between 1997 and
2012, initially onsite and classroom training, then I became a Training
Manager, followed by Training and Audit Manager. The training schedule
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centrally determined onsite and classroom training depending on the locations
and the availability of trainers. I would not be able to estimate how many
training courses I ran during that time. I did attend Train the Trainer courses
and Training Skills courses during this time to update my own skills. These
were generally internal courses but I think some were external although I
cannot remember any qualifications received. I recall that some of the areas
covered were Learning Styles and Objection Handling, as well as internal
training when new products were introduced such as the Insurance products. I
enjoyed leaming about training and teaching as I felt that this added to my
skills and benefitted my trainees. As this was so long ago I cannot recall
specific feedback about the training or the Horizon system. I do recall that the
feedback I received from my trainee was very positive and the support and
help I gave during training was much appreciated. At the end of a course or
onsite training feedback sheets were given for the trainees to complete
feedback and give comments. As I recall these were put in an envelope and
sent off so the feedback was anonymous. I am not sure when this was
introduced.
. I was a Training Manager for a few years, I can’t recall the dates. During this
time I line managed teams of trainers in the South West, in the centre of the
South, and in South Wales. The names I can recall are Gaynor Davies, Paul
Jones, Paul Holland, Haydi O’Brien, Alison Field, Craig Winks, Robert Hemes,
Junaid Tanveer, Geoff Edwards, Kim Hobson, David Thomas. As best as I
can recall the gist of the feedback received was always very positive as the
trainees were pleased to get the support and help from the Trainer. Feedback
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was received from the anonymous feedback forms and was discussed at
121's with the individual trainers.
The Training Programme
9. When I started training I came under Bristol and the training we delivered was
generally based on teaching how to complete the transactions based on our
own knowledge. When the training was centralised, and I am not sure of the
year that this happened, there was a Head of Training and then a group of
Training Managers and trainers who were responsible for devising and
updating the content and the materials for the classroom training and for use
onsite. The training was offered to new postmasters and to new post office
staff, and it was classroom and onsite. I delivered onsite and classroom. It
was quite some time ago and over the period I was a Trainer/Training
Manager the training offer changed quite a lot. It went from two weeks to one
week, depending on what products the branch would be transacting. The
onsite also reduced and instead of two follow up balances I think I remember
when I left the follow up balance was a Trading Period one, although again I
cannot recall fully. Classroom training was a maximum of 6 delegates due to
the number of Horizon terminals in the classrooms, although these courses I
found generally were not at maximum capacity, and sometimes only two or
three delegates. Onsite the training was for the new postmaster, although
towards the end of my time as a Trainer/Training Manager, some of the post
offices had multiple new members of staff to be trained. In these cases there
was a tick list for each member of staff to remember what they had learnt as
they tended to work shifts so would not be in attendance for the whole training
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period. The classroom content started with understanding Horizon and the
screens, then covered the most common transactions, such as mails, learning
how to process through Horizon and using practical examples. There was
extra days added for branches that issued car tax and passports as this was
not applicable for every trainee. There was time built in for discussing
customer service and upselling products. Also there would be end of day
accounting and balancing practice. Every trainee had different levels of ability
and the classroom training gave them a start and an introduction but I don’t
feel it was enough on its own, so the onsite support that followed was really
important. This was when they had the opportunity to put into practice the
basics that they had learnt. Facing real customers and real transactions is
very different to learning in a classroom.
10.As an onsite trainer, if I thought my trainee was going to struggle when left on
11.
their own, there was an option for me to flag for some extra training,
dependent on the availability of resources. During the onsite training I would
assess how well my postmaster was dealing with transactions, product
knowledge, daily reports, etc. and if I felt that they were struggling there was a
possibility of asking for some extra training if there was resource available on
the training schedule. If I had another training course scheduled straight after
then another trainer could be assigned and I would let them know what the
gaps were and what they needed to do to help. It was quite rare for requests
for extending training were not fulfilled and I can’t remember any particular
occasions or branches.
I have been asked to consider POL00033420 and POL00033637 and have
very poor recollection of the trial for PO Essentials and PO Local although
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both documents say to send feedback to myself. I can remember initial
meetings to discuss PO Essentials and what transactions and products they
should be able to transact and sell. The concept was that they would offer a
limited amount of products and services and would not transact ones that
needed paperwork or end of day reports. This would mean that the
transactions were more straightforward and easier, there would not be a
requirement for storage for lots of paperwork and forms, end of day would
only require a cash declaration, and the balancing procedure would be easier.
The format was intended for convenience stores with multiple members of
staff. I have no recollection of the role out of these models or of receiving any
feedback.
12. The spreadsheet POL00085132 is a record of all the training briefs used by
the training team nationally. Areas were allocated to each Training Manager
and they were responsible for making sure that the information in those briefs
was reviewed and updated regularly, hence the dates for reviewing at
different time of the year. This work could be delegated to their team
members to help.
13. Considering POL00033632 and POL00033607 as a Training Manager I was
allocated sections of the training package to review and this was discussed by
the rest of the Training Managers at quarterly review meetings. With regards
to the comment about the PSA, as far as I can recall, if a trainee had
struggled to complete a process or did not understand how to do something,
or it had not been covered, it was marked as RED on the PSA and should be
carried forward as an Action for whoever was supporting further so they would
know where more help was required. Because this was not an automatic
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response on the PSA it was a concern that some actions were not being
captured so if the command could be carried through actions would not be
missed. Keeping the materials in the CTO’s up to date was difficult as they
weren't in constant use, but when a new course was due the prep was left
until a day or so before the start of the course. If there were out of date leaflet
or items missing from the prep box there would be no time to order in time for
the start of the course, so earlier prep dates were considered an
improvement. I wasn’t completing transfer audits at this time but my team
would have been and they would have flagged that trying to complete a
transfer audit and actually getting the new postmaster in and opening up on
the same day that the leaving postmaster has to balance and close was
extremely difficult. If the published opening time on the transfer day was for
the afternoon customers would be waiting and the transfer audit may not have
been completed in time for opening.
14.Considering POL00033610 I believe these comments to be feedback from the
individual trainers in my team which were put forward for consideration to
make changes to the training offer. Some of these actions would have been
put into place but I am not sure which ones. Sometimes the prep boxes for
the materials being used in the classroom would contain out of date material
which could be practical materials that had been changed but not yet updated
in Swindon, or out of date leaflets. The reference to Day 6 stock balancing
refers to the delegates completing a balance in the classroom on day 6 of the
course but as they had already done a balance on a previous day and not
completed any transactions on the system since, it would suggest and
improvement to the course content to put some extra transactions in before
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the Day 6 balance. With reference to the PTV, there was plans for a phone
call at one month, followed by a visit at 3 months, then and audit at 6 months.
Feedback from the onsite trainers was that the same questions were being
asked each time even when the first time of asking the answer was positive
so what was the purpose? It was felt that a visit rather than a phone call after
a month would be better as you can discover earlier by attending an office if
there are any problems, rather than over the phone. With regards for the
requests for more ‘practicals’ in the classroom, it was an ongoing process to
continue to develop more practical examples for products and services for
delegates to process through Horizon, giving them practice with serving
imaginary customers, and also making sure they used the stock and cash so
they had a good practice at balancing. We were limited with what
transactions we could actually process through the classroom Horizon kits as
they weren't live so we were reliant on dummy cards etc. but could make up
parcels etc to weigh and send. The duration of the classroom course could
feel like it was not long enough if you had a full course and a very slow
learner, which would mean a struggle to get everything covered as you can
only work as fast as the slowest learner.
15. Considering POL00033612 my role as a Field Team Leader was to cascade
the changes and improvements identified in the review to my team through
Work Time Learning sessions. I think the pilot was to assess and review
changes and standardisation of the training courses and materials and the
results could be reviewed and then put into place. The purpose of the
Performance Standard Assessment was to give the trainer a process to
assess training needs and be able to identify and put in place actions for
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areas where performance needed to be improved. This would all be
documented.
16. Considering POL00032755 it is a tick list to ensure all the necessary
procedures and processes have been completed and things are in place for a
smooth opening of an office after a period of closure or if it has moved. I do
not recall creating this document but it could have been put together from
parts of other processes and lists that already existed. I have no recollection
of receiving any feedback for this process.
Advice and Assistance
17.When I left an onsite training or a classroom course I very rarely kept in any
contact with the postmasters or the staff I had trained. In the early days I
would leave my phone number in case they got stuck but this caused
problems when I was working at the following post office so I encouraged
them to use the Helpline. I did work on the counter at Priory Road Post Office
in Wells on a couple of occasions to allow the postmaster to attend some
appointments, following the support I gave when she took over the Post
Office, as this was local to me, but I didn’t offer very often as I was working
and did not want to give up my free time.
18.1 was not responsible for giving postmasters advice or assistance in my
training role. My role was to teach them how to process transactions using the
Horizon system, set up a tidy well organised system for working so that they
didn’t get in a muddle, and how to complete their daily and weekly accounts. I
followed the training briefs and used the handouts and materials provided to
help them remember what they were doing.
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19. If issues were raised outside of transactional and training questions I would
direct them to what I felt was the appropriate support, whether this was the
Helpline, HR, or the Contracts Manager.
20.As this was so long ago I cannot recall any specific issues that were raised
during that time. I do not recall any difficulties involving the Horizon system
that were not an input error that could be corrected when identified.
21.1 don’t recall raising any concerns that needed a response.
22.1 can only speak for myself and I felt, throughout my time as a trainer, I did the
absolute best job I could helping and supporting my postmasters. I hada
genuine feeling for them that I wanted them to be the best they could be, and I
think I did a really good job.
23.1 have no knowledge of POL00079768 as I've never seen this information
before, but it seems to be calls logged to the Helpline from Priory Road Post
Office. As I stated previously, I supported Gail Ward when she took over the
post office, although she did not require much training as she was already
experienced. I became a friend to her and her family and on a few occasions
I worked in the Post Office to allow her some time away. It would only be a
day or half day and never more than one at a time. I didn’t do holiday relief or
cover when I was training for any branches. I cannot say that I wn.as the
person taking the call listed at line 51. I have no idea what KB means in the
last column.
Horizon Online
24.With consideration to POL00039318 and POL00079768 when Horizon Online
was being rolled out I think I was training so I would have been scheduled to
support offices after they had migrated from manual to Horizon. I cannot
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recall what support I delivered during that time but my name is on the
document so I would have attended those branches and either was there for
the migration to ensure everything went over to Horizon, or for the following
morning. I do not have any clear recollection of these visits.
Bugs, errors and defects in the Horizon IT System
25.1 was not aware of any issues or problems with the Horizon system in my time
with Post Office Ltd.
26.I never heard of any issues from anyone so there was no impact that I had to
deal with.
27.As I had no knowledge of any problems with Horizon there was no impact or
me to deal with.
Resolution of disputes
28.When the training team and the audit team were amalgamated I received
audit training which involved shadowing experienced auditors and being
taught how to use the excel spreadsheets they used to record stock and cash
during audits. I attended audits as part of a team of auditors, and when I was
a Field Team Leader I also led audits with a team.
29.1 was never involved or party to disputes between Post Office and
postmasters as once an audit was completed, if there were any
discrepancies, the Contracts Manager would be called to make a decision on
what happened next. As an auditor I was never notified of any outcomes of
audits or of what happened to postmasters with discrepancies.
30.Disputes and discrepancies would be resolved above my level. The only
Contracts Manager I can recall from this period is Gary Adderley.
31.1 was never aware of any contact or input by Fujitsu in any disputes.
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32.As far as I was aware at the time I felt that the process for resolving
discrepancies worked. It didn’t cross my mind to look for improvements to a
procedure that had been in place for some time and I understood to be
working.
33.At the time I was working for Post Office and training postmasters how to use
Horizon I had every faith that the system was working as it should and when
errors occurred it was down to human error. As an auditor it was difficult to
identify errors that had occurred in the past as the documentation was not
always available and the systems reports did not go back far enough. I still
did not question the integrity of the Horizon system, but since the information
about the cases and the inquiry has been put in the public domain I do feel
very sad for the postmasters and staff affected, and I feel Post Office should
have been open when they discovered faults as it made everyone involved
feel absolutely stupid and rotten through no fault of their own.
34.1 have completed this statement without a solicitor and in my own words. I
have done my best to recollect events but have found there to be areas where
I cannot remember what I was doing and have not tried to imagine what I
might have done.
Statement of Truth
I believe the content of this statement to be true.
Signed:
Dated: 19 December 2022
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Index to First Witness Statement of Rita Palmer
No. URN Document Description Control Number
1 POL00033420 Introduction to Post Office POL-0030355
Essentials Guidance v2.5
2 POL00033637 Draft training manual re: POL-003057 2
1.3 Introduction to Post
Office Local, v. 5.0
3 POL00085132 Training Review Guidance I POL-0082190
Notes
4 POL00033632 Post Office Presentation POL-0030567
V1.3 (January 2012) re:
Training Review Cascade,
by Sue Richardson on 12
January 2012.
5 POL00033607 POL Training Q3 Review I POL-0030542
v1.2
6 POL00033610 Audit Review Internal POL-0030545
Stakeholder Feedback,
Appendix A December
2011
7 POL00033612 Review of Post Office Ltd I POL-0030547
New Entrant Training Pilot
December 2011
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8 POL00032755 Relocation and Re- POL-0029690
Opening of Agency
Offices - FSA Guide, V7
9 POL00079768 Call log from Priory Road I POL-0076331
PO
10 POL00039318 PO Spreadsheet of POL-003580 0
Horizon Online Rollout
data
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