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Witness Name: Gill Payne
Statement No.: WITNO5560100
Dated: g/ /2%
POST OFFICE HORIZON IT INQUIRY
FIRST WITNESS STATEMENT OF GILL PAYNE
1, GILL PAYNE, will say as follows...
1. My role with the Post Office was Client Take on Manager & Network Banking.
It was my jab to put our new automated payment (AP) clients onto the Horizon
system each month. For example, the clients would have been BT, DVLA or
various electric or gas clients. The customers’ bills would have a bar-code on
them, or the customer could have a magnetic card which the clerks at the
counter would either scan the barcode or Swipe the magnetic card on Horizon.
! had a test Horizon system in my Office which I used to test each bar-code or
magnetic card to make sure they worked at the counter, before they went live
on the counters each month. I used to attend meetings with some of our
clients, especially Girobank as they were one of our biggest clients.
2. The Horizon test kit was in our office. It was a replica of the same kit that was
installed in all Post Offices but was not online or live. As explained, my job was
to add new clients who wanted a bar-code‘or magnetic cards added as a
Payment method for their customers in order for them to pay-their bills or car
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tax etc. It was a monthly task. I would add new clients throughout the month up
until the cut-off date for accepting new clients. I think, I then gave a list to
Fujitsu, who would then add them to our client list ready to go live. Before they
went live, they would be downloaded to to the test kit. I would then test each
new bar-code and magnetic card, for example I would just create a made-up
transaction to test the bar-codes and cards, I would then run various reports,
which I can't remember what they were now, I would then run a dummy cash
account to make sure the new products were showing up on the cash account.
I didn't check the amounts or run a complete cash account as there was no
need. I just needed to know they were live. Once the tests were complete, I
would give Fujitsu the go ahead to release them to start on the 1st of each
month. It was a monthly task which i had been carrying out since Horizon was
first introduced. I found no difficulty in using it and may have received some
training when first introduced to it, but can't remember what that was or by
whom.
. With regards to Network Banking (NB), I mainly added new mobile pay as you
go clients as and when they requested it. There was little or no work to do with
NB on a regular basis. Once they had been keyed into the system, they were
tested and downloaded to our counters.
. I have been asked to describe any qualifications you had. I had no official
qualifications.
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. The training was on the job training, a colleague showed me what to do and I
then took over the role of Client take on Manager and much later Network
Banking Manager.
. I joined the Post Office in 1994 as a Help Desk Manager grade CM1 (counter
manager). I worked on the AP machine which was the machine before
Horizon. If a Post Office had a problem with a magnetic card or the machine
itself, I would talk to them on the phone and resolve their issues. I then moved
to the Capture desk, which was mainly a manual system for sub postmasters,
again before Horizon. In 1997 I applied for the role of Client Take on Manager,
! got the promotion and was then grade CM2. I stayed in that role until I was
made redundant in 2012.
. I have been asked to provide an overview of what contact I had with sub-
postmasters’ managers and assistants working in Post Offices, if any. My
contact with sub-postmasters ended in 1997 when I changed roles.
. I have been asked to describe whether I was responsible for providing sub-
postmasters at Post Office branches with advice or assistance. No, I dealt with
clients and suppliers of bar-codes and magnetic cards and Fujitsu.
If there were issues with barcodes or magnetic cards I did not need to
escalate, I dealt with them myself.
10.In my role, if there was a problem with an AP transaction it was generally
because there was something wrong with the bar-code or magnetic card. If it
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was a system issue, I would escalate to Fujitsu for them to resolve but I can’t:
remember how often this was, I don’t think for AP there were many issues as it
was a tried and tested system.
11.1 have been asked if there were any steps that I thought should have been
taken in response to any concerns that I raised that were not. My response is
no.
12.1 have been asked if there was anyone who I felt could have done more to
assist or make things better for sub-postmasters. My response is no.
13.1 have been asked if I was responsible for managing the contracts of sub-
postmasters, what steps’! took to ensure that individuals felt confident with
using Horizon. I had no contact with sub-postmasters.
14.1 have been asked what steps I took to assist someone if they said that they
did not feel. wholly confident with using Horizon. I had no contact with sub-
postmasters.
15.1 had heard through office gossip that there were accounting problems with the
Horizon system, but our team were not involved with this. We just carried on
as normal, loading new clients onto Horizon. I have no idea as to how or where
the gossip started and I'm guessing would have been chatted about in our
office. At the time I heard the gossip, I did not believe there were problems
with Horizon. Like Fujitsu, none of us believed there was a problem. But
remember, we were not designers, we were in effect end users. It was never a
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big deal, just gossip, hearsay, none of us knew if it was true or false, we were
low level and if there had been a problem, no one would have discussed it with
us, it would have been discussed at a much higher level, for example with our
line manager Rabia Cody who was a very senior manager and above. I'm
sorry but can't remember any more detail than that.
16.1 have been asked to set out who I received this information from or how I
came to be aware of these issues and how widely known I consider them to
have been. As above but I have no idea how widely known the issue was, I
believe it was being dealt with in our head office in London. We were based in
Bracknell.
17.I have been asked how this knowledge impacted upon how I dealt with sub-
postmasters or Post Office managers or assistants-working in Post Office
branches. Resolution of disputes I had no contact with the branches unless
they rang me about a barcode or magnetic card not working on their kit.
18.1 have been asked if I recall branches mentioning any problems with Horizon
more generally when they rang me about bar codes or magnetic cards not
working on their kit. No, at that time they would have been more concerned
about the product not working, they did not discuss their cash accounts with
me.
19.1 have been asked to explain whether I was involved in or party to any disputes
between the Post Office and sub-postmasters regarding any alleged shortfalls
of money. I had no contact or involvement in any disputes.
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20.1 have been asked to describe the process by which any disputes were raised
Ziks
and resolved and to specify any individuals you know to have been involved.
Like I said before, I believe this was all being dealt with in our head office. I
have no idea who was involved.
I have been asked to describe whether I was aware of any contact or input
from Fujitsu in the resolution of Pay disputes, and if so, to provide details
including the names of relevant individuals from Fujitsu. I'm not aware of any
of the above. The only thing I heard, again from office gossip was that Fujitsu
were in complete denial that there was a problem and were adamant that it
was not their software that was causing-the accounting problems. That was all -
I heard through the office gossip, but they were always adamant that if
anything went wrong, it was the postmasters doing something silly. They would
never accept it could be a fault or a problem no matter what the issue might
have been. I think it might have been David Wilcox who was our main contact
and he just dismissed anything we took to him. I can't remember any
examples but Susanne Robson who is much younger than me would or could
give you examples or maybe Andy Corbett. Those 2 knew much more than
me about the workings of the whole Horizon system:as I only worked on a
fraction of it. Please be aware that the last time I was in the office was 2010 as
I was on gardening leave for 2 years and would not have heard any gossip
since 2010.
22.1 have been asked to give my view on whether there could have been any
improvement in this process and to identify who would have been responsible
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for implementing any improvement I suggest. If the gossip was true about
Fujitsu denying any issues, then they need to accept they are not invincible
and that anyone can make a mistake. Fujitsu was very arrogant. However, on
that note, I have no idea what caused the problem or who caused it.
23. There are no other matters that I consider the Chair of the Inquiry should be
aware of.
Statement of Truth
I believe the content of this statement to be true.