WITNO05620100
WITNO5620100
Witness Name: Ann Cruttenden
Ref: WITN05620100
Dated: 16 March 2023
POST OFFICE HORIZON IT INQUIRY
FIRST WITNESS STATEMENT OF ANN CRUTTENDEN
1. 1, Ann Cruttenden, will say as follows:
2. In making this statement I would like to acknowledge the importance of the
Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry and offer my full co-operationd the Inquiry.
3. At the outset, I wish to confirm that I have been asked a number of general
questions regarding the Post Office Horizon IT Project. I muspoint out that
my recollection of the projects that I had any involvement withduring the
course of my career at the Post Office is limited given the pasage of time. I
have not been asked to comment on any specific documents and have not
been provided with any documents by the Inquiry.
4. To confirm why I am providing this statement, on 24 August 20221 received a
written request from the Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry for méo provide a
written statement pursuant to Rule 9 of the Inquiry Rules 2006- Request 1,
regarding issues with Horizon prior to roll-out. This Request Contained 21
questions which the Inquiry asked me to address in my statementFor ease of
reference, I have written out each question with its corresponding question
Page 1 of 13
WITNO05620100
WITNO5620100
number. I prepared this witness statement with the assistance 6my legal
representatives, Mr lan Manners and Ms Zoe Hunt of Ashfords LLP
BACKGROUND
Question 1: Please set out an overview of your role(s) within the Post Office.
5. My recollection of the exact dates and roles is not clear buthe following is to
the best of my recollection. Some of the role names and dates ave been
provided to me recently by Post Office’s People Support Team.
6. After initially pursuing a career in nursing, I changed careeand started with
the Post Office commencing in 1985 when I began as a Counter Gérk in
Brighton.
7. I cannot recall the exact timings but between 1985 and 1992 I was promoted
to Assistant Branch Manager and then to Branch Manager.
8. Following a restructure and assessment process in 1992 I movedo London
and between 1992 and May 2002 I worked as Retail Network Manage(RNM)
and then as Retail Quality Manager (RQM) I! do not have the exact dates but
to the best of my recollection I spent 5-6 years as a RNM anditen around 4
years as a RQM. As a result I would have been a RNM until 1997 or 1998.
9. As an RNM I was based in the Twickenham office and had responsibility for
offices in outer London, such as Epson, Kingston and Caterhamlt was a
network facing role and I was responsible for supporting Crown Offices and
sub post offices. To the best of my recollection, this was prior to the roll out of
any Horizon systems.
Page 2 of 13
WITNO05620100
WITNO5620100
10.1 can recall that I had an assessment before I became RQM. This role was
very different to the RNM role. I recall working with the Heads of Retail. I was
also involved in supporting the development of RNMs working wit more rural
offices and identifying their training and development needs.
11.1 recall that as an RQM I was involved in the majority of the quality activities
such as Customer First and Business Excellence and I was the led on
achieving the Charter Mark’ standard in a number of Crown Offies.
12.1 have received information from People Support in relation tany roles at the
Post Office between 2002 and my last day of service, 30 July 201:
e 15 May 2002 — 31 January 2003: Transformational Change Manager
e 1 February 2003 — 30 April 2003: Management Admin
e 1 May 2003 — 24 September 2006: Operational Change Manager
e 25 September 2006 — 31 October 2007: Business Partner Networland
Sales
e 1 November 2007 — 30 September 2010: Business Partner Operations and
Network.
e 1 October 2010 - 30 July 2011: Operations and Market Solutions
Manager.
13.My recollection is that as a Transformational Change Manager Was involved
in a Branch Management Project. By way of brief explanation, the business
was considering options for how Crown Offices could be managedlooking at
options for Senior Branch Managers. I was the lead within the poject and
worked work with Human Resources to design and develop the restucture of
Page 3 of 13
WITNO05620100
WITNO5620100
the Crown Office Management teams, including providing an assesment
process to support their reorganisation. However this did not progress and I
am unable to recollect why the business did not end up implemeting the
management structural changes.
14.According to the information provided, I then carried out a Management
Administration role for around two months between February andpril 2003
but I do not know what this role involved. I did seek clarification from the
People Support Team but they were unable to provide any informdion.
15.Between 2003 and 2006 I worked as Operational Change Manager. My role
was to help manage changes to the network and operations and esure that
there was steady flow in terms of the introduction of new devaspments. Over
a year there would be approximately 1,200 changes, ranging fronminor
changes such as instructions to remove and return stock to brad new
products or services, through to major changes such as the intoduction of
‘Chip and Pin’. The Network was the recipient of all of these banges and my
role was to act as ‘gatekeeper’ and ensure that the changes were managed
effectively into the network.
16. For example, I would help to avoid changes being implemented at peak
periods in the business, trying to avoid branches having to deal with large
changes at busy times in the month and the year. I would regularly do
presentations to the Network lead teams, including the Heads oRetail, about
upcoming changes. I can recall that Change Managers would go out and test
with sub-postmasters and Crown Offices such things as communicéons and
training. I believe that at a similar time to, or following the roll out of Horizon,
Page 4 of 13
WITNO05620100
WITNO5620100
there was also ‘Chip and Pin’. The actual technical project wdk and
implementation was done by the programme teams.
17.Between 2006 and 2007, my job title was ‘Business Partner Netwc and
Sales’ and then between 2007 and 2010, my job title was ‘Busines Partner
Operations and Sales’. Both roles were within operations, and pecifically the
IT and Change Team from 2007. My focus was on change and not IT as I
had no technical background in IT. There were stakeholders in 4 of the
teams who would review and feed into the plans for changes, intuding the
impact that these changes would have and what needed to be doneSales
teams were seeking to deploy new products and services whereadthe
Operational and Network teams were stakeholders to ensure thesechanges
were managed into the network ensuring the support functions were also
prepared.
18.My role as Operations and Market Solutions Manager was my lastole at the
Post Office. However, I was only in the role for a few weeks as I was off for
over 4 months from the end of October 2010 until around March/Aril 2011
due to having major surgery. Whenl returned I took voluntary redundancy
and spent my remaining time handing over beforel left in June 2011.
Question 2: Please describe any qualifications you had.
19.At school I obtained GCSEs and any qualifications after that wald have been
internal and external courses which I completed during my career with the
Post Office. I completed courses in Business Management and Cé&nt and
Customer Relations at the Open University, as part of the traimg support
Page 5 of 13
WITNO05620100
WITNO5620100
provided to me by the Post Office.
Question 3: Please set out any training you received.
20.At the Post Office I can recall that I completed the following courses:
e Coaching Performance
e Prince 2 Project Management
e Change Management
e Assessor Training
e Trauma Training
e Harassment Investigator Training
e Health and Safety
e I completed many more courses but I am unable to recollect and People
Support have been unable to provide any details.
Question 4: Please describe any career progression within the Post Office.
22.Please see my replies to questions 1 — 3.
ADVICE AND ASSISTANCE
Question 5: Please provide an overview of what contact you had with
subpostmasters or managers and assistants working in Post Offices, if any.
23.As described above, as an RNM my responsibility was to support my network
of offices, including with sub-postmasters, managers and assisints working
in branches. I would provide assistance in relation to any probems which they
may encounter as raised, such as problems with stock, mail pickup, new
transactions or balancing issues. However, as far as I can recall this was
Page 6 of 13
WITNO05620100
WITNO5620100
prior to Horizon and I cannot recall any of the businesses within my network
being involved in any testing of Horizon systems.
24.As Operational Change Manager, my role was focused on the implmentation
of changes to the network but my direct contact with the network during this
time was limited to a small number of events where I was involved in
presenting to groups of branch representatives about upcoming banges. For
example, I can recall presenting at an event in Scotland but I am unsure when
this was and what it was for. They could have been something todo with
Horizon systems or ‘Chip and Pin’ or for another reason.
25.1 was relatively well-known within the business and the managerent teams
within the network. So wheneverl did do anything network facing, we would
be asked questions and would deal with issues individual office may have
been having. For example, a sub-postmaster might contact me abat a
question concerning logistics I would then speak to the relevant person in
logistics and relay the information to the sub-postmaster who had posed the
question, letting them know what I had done. I would always try and leave them with
the contact details for the correct person to contact if they had any further issues
and I would contact their RNM on their behalf and advise what I had done.
However, most branches would raise issues with their RNM or through the Helpline.
Question 6: Please describe whether you were responsible for providing
subpostmasters or Post Office branches with advice or assistance.
26.Providing sub-postmasters or branches with advice or assistancewas part of
my role as an RNM (around 1992 — 1997/8). I was responsible foa
designated area and would visit offices regularly and provide apport and
Page 7 of 13
WITNO05620100
WITNO5620100
advice.
Question 7: When issues were raised, how did you escalate these difficulties?
27.During my time as RNM, in general I can recall branches and oftes having
issues with things like stock, balancing, mail, abusive customes and
transactions. These were all standard issues that the sub-postrasters would
raise and I would assist them in sorting those out, by raising issues with
relevant departments within the Post Office and Royal Mail andisiting for
more direct support. Offices were visited regularly to see how they were
getting on and if sub-postmasters were new, they would be viséd more
regularly.
28.1 have explained above that during my later roles involved in ¢livering
changes, my direct contact with branches and offices was limited. Any issues
to do with communications and training would be dealt with byte relevant
project teams and we would feed into the plans. Network traines were
stakeholders pre-deployment of projects/programmes.
Question 8: Please specify, if you have not already done so, how often any
difficulties in the Horizon system?
29.As my RNM role, which was when I had most direct contact with the network,
was pre-Horizon, I was not dealing with any Horizon difficultie during that
time. During my roles after that, I did not become aware of any particular
issues with Horizon, whether that be difficulties experienced b branches or
difficulties reported to me by other parts of the business. I do not remember
anyone on the network side saying that there were a lot of Hodon problems
Page 8 of 13
WITNO05620100
WITNO5620100
nor do I recall any colleagues involved in change projects telling me about
problems.
30.1 assume that during the time of my Operational Change Managerole there
would have been IT developments which were related to Horizon bt I have
no specific recollection of them. There was a lot of change happening within
the business, all with their own project teams and managers, ad we were
assisting in ensuring that the pipeline of change being delivered to the
network was manageable and easy to use by branches.
Question 9: Were there any steps that you thought should have been taken in
response to any concerns that you raised that were not?
31.As I have mentioned above, I do not recall any Horizon related concerns
being raised. I was not aware that there were major balancing issues
happening post-Horizon. My focus would have been managing furter
changes as there was always continuous change.
Question 10: Was there anyone who you felt could have done more to assist or
make things better for subpostmasters?
32.1 cannot think of anyone who I felt could have done more to assist or make
things better for sub-postmasters.
TRAINING
Question 11: If you were responsible for managing the contracts of
subpostmasters, set out what steps you took to ensure that individuals felt
confident when using Horizon.
Page 9 of 13
WITNO05620100
WITNO5620100
33.1 was not responsible for managing sub-postmasters’ contracts dllowing the
roll out of Horizon.
34.1 would have been responsible when! was RNM but not past 1997/8 so not
when Horizon was happening. I did not manage their contracts aspart of
my role as an RQM. I did dismiss one sub-postmaster during the course of
my role as an RNM - this related to an admitted case of theft following a
routine audit.
Question 12: If someone said that he or she did not feel wholly confident with
using Horizon, what steps did you take to assist them?
35.Please see above. No Horizon issues were brought to my attentia. I have
described above the steps I took to support the network duringny role asan
RNM and later when working as Operational Change Manager.
Question 13: Please explain whether you thought that any improvements could
have been made to the training received by subpostmasters
36.As I was not aware of any difficulties being experienced by subpostmasters
regarding Horizon, and! am not in a position to comment specifically in
relation to Horizon related training improvements. I am aware that generally
training was usually by way of trainers going out into the busiess and
information being given, often through manuals and updates usig Ops
publications. Helplines were also available and branches woulde able to
contact their RNM in the event of any difficulties. When I was an RNM I would
give sub-postmasters extra support as needed. Overall I felt tat this was a
Page 10 of 13
WITNO05620100
WITNO5620100
system which worked
37.As part of the Operational Change process training needs assoaited with
changes were part of the process, as was communications I do reall some
discussions around training in relation to the ‘Post and Go’ poject but donot
recall anything specific relating to Horizon or other projectsas training
materials and support was something we always fed into on projets.
ERRORS OR ISSUES WITH HORIZON SYSTEM
Question 14: Please explain whether you were aware of any issues or
problems with the Horizon system.
38.1 do not recall being aware of any issues or problems with Hogion. I expect
any issues experienced by sub-postmasters would have been raisd with their
RNM or the Helpline following the roll out. As far as I am aware, the Horizon
project had its own Change Managers in situ.
39.1 cannot recall that anyone ever came to me and told me that tere was a
problem. Given my previous role as an RNM, I remained quite protective of
the network and I believe that I would have become aware of issues from
discussions with colleagues.
40.During my time working in operational changel was aware of balancing
problems within one branch but also that this had been a longsinding
problem for this branch. In that case, I believe auditors came in and looked at
it but there was never any mention of the problem being due tcHorizon as far
as I am aware.
Page 11 of 13
WITNO05620100
WITNO5620100
Question 15: If so, please set out who you received this information from or
how you came to be aware of these issues and how widely known you
consider them to have been.
41.Please see above my response to question 14.
Question 16: How did this knowledge impact upon how you dealt with
subpostmasters or Post Office managers or assistants working in Post Office
branches.
42.Please see above my response to question 14.
RESOLUTION OF DISPUTES
Question 17: Please explain whether you were involved in or party to any
disputes between the Post Office and subpostmasters regarding any alleged
shortfalls of money.
43. Aside from the incident I have described at paragraph 34 above] had no
involvement in disputes.
Question 18: If so, please describe the process by which any disputes were
raised and resolved. Please specify any individuals you know to have been
involved.
44.From my recollection and based on the incident I have describedabove which
is my only experience of dealing with a dispute, issues in relaion to shortfalls
of money would come from the audit team. I recall that there waild then be a
process of suspension and investigation and interviews.
Question 19: Please describe whether you are aware of any contact or input
Page 12 of 13
WITN0O5620100
WITNO05620100
from Fujitsu in the resolution of any disputes. If so, please provide details
including the names of relevant individuals from Fujitsu.
45.1 am not aware of any contact or input from Fujitsu in the resolution ofany
disputes.
Question 20: Please give your view on whether there could have been any
improvement in this process. Please identify who would have been
responsible for implementing any improvement you suggest.
46. Given my very limited experience of any dispute process, I do not feel like I
am in a position to express a view in relation to improving the process or who
would have been responsible for implementing such improvements.
Question 21: Are there any other matters that you consider the Chair of the
Inquiry should be aware of?
There is nothing which I think that I can usefully add to what I have said above.
Statement of Truth
I believe the content of this statement to be true.
Page 13 of 13