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Witness Name: Alan Staves
Statement No: WITN07340100
Dated: 99/04 2023
THE POST OFFICE HORIZON IT INQUIRY
First Witness Statement of Alan Staves in the Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry
I, ALAN STAVES, WILL SAY AS FOLLOWS:
1. My name is Alan Staves. I have been employed by Post Office Limited or its
predecessors ("POL") since 1982.
2. Except where I indicate to the contrary, the facts and matters contained in this
witness statement are within my own knowledge. Where any information is not
within my personal knowledge, I have identified the source of my information or
the basis for my belief. The facts in this witness statement are true to the best
of my knowledge and belief.
3. In this statement I use the term "Postmaster" broadly to refer to those people
or entities that are responsible for operating post offices (but excluding those
individuals employed by POL), rather than with any formal definition in mind. I
use the terms "Postmaster" and "Subpostmaster" interchangeably given their
common usage. Nothing in this statement is intended to detract or differ from
any definition adopted by POL. I also use the terms NBSC and BSC
interchangeably.
4. This witness statement has been prepared in response to the request made by
the Horizon IT Inquiry (the "Inquiry") pursuant to Rule 9 of the Inquiry Rules
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2006, dated 21 February 2023 (the "Rule 9 Request"). This statement has
been prepared (with the assistance of my solicitors, Herbert Smith Freehills
LLP, who are also currently POL's solicitors) over telephone and email. In this
witness statement, I address each of the questions set out in the Rule 9
Request, including my career background at POL and my knowledge of, and
involvement with, the NBSC, based on the best of my recollection, which may
be influenced by the passage of time since I began working at POL.
Professional background
5. I have been asked to set out my professional background. I worked in the steel
works from 1973 until 1980. I then held a temporary role in the food processing
industry from 1980 until 1982. In January 1982 I got a job at POL, as a postman.
In April 1985 I received an eight-week counter training course with POL before
starting as a counter clerk in June 1985. I held this role until 1987. In May 1987
I joined the Accounts team in Sheffield as an accounts clerk, which involved
processing giro deposits and making inward and outward remittances for
branches in Sheffield. In 1993 the Accounts team moved to a new purpose-built
building in Sheffield which became the dedicated cash centre responsible for
the wider region, including Doncaster, Hull, Worksop and Chesterfield. My role
in the cash centre was chief cashier, and my responsibilities remained largely
the same as in the Accounts team.
6. I started working in the NBSC in January 2000 as a Tier 2 advisor. At this time
Tier 2 advisors were managed by POL, whereas Tier 1 advisors were managed
by Royal Mail Group ("RMG"). I do not know why the management of the team
was divided in this way. As far as I can recall and, in my experience, it did not
cause any particular issues. Tier 1 and Tier 2 advisors were all part of the same
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wider team and based in the same location. Sometimes Tier 1 advisors would
ask me and other Tier 2 advisors questions informally on our breaks. I held the
Tier 2 advisor role until 2005 when I became a Tier 1 advisor. This was due to
the POL and RMG restructure, following which the NBSC sat fully within RUG
and almost all advisors were classed as Tier 1 (with a small escalation team of
eight people as described at paragraph 31 below). I think Tier 2 was formally
reintroduced shortly before the start of the Covid-19 pandemic, and I returned
to a Tier 2 advisor role in March 2022.
Training received toward working in the NBSC
7. When I first joined the NBSC, I undertook three weeks of counter training in
Doncaster Counter Training Office. I do not recall who delivered this training.
The content of this training was focussed on the different transactions available
in branch, and how to process them all. It was similar to the training I had
received in preparation for my role as a counter clerk and I was mostly familiar
with the content already. Of the eight people on this training course, I believe I
was the only one with prior counter experience at POL. I do not recall this
course including any training on Horizon.
8. Following this, I attended one-week of classroom training at Dearne House on
the NBSC computer systems, and on how to process transactions on Horizon.
This training was delivered by a training officer called Nicola Reeves, who was
the main trainer in Dearne House for the first two years of my employment there.
9. I then underwent two weeks of shadowing on the NBSC Helpline. During the
first week, I observed a more experienced Tier 2 advisor taking calls. During
the second week I answered calls myself, whilst being observed by the more
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experienced advisor who would provide feedback. At this time, Horizon had
only been running for a month, however the advisor I was shadowing had
experience working in a regional helpline prior to joining the NBSC.
10.When I first joined the NBSC we had a weekly one-hour training session in
addition to half an hour of reading time (to read the Post Office Gazette, for
example). These were staggered between teams so that there was never a
point when all the advisors were away from the phones. After approximately
one year, these sessions were replaced by gatherings known as 'Work Time
Learning’ sessions during which each team would have an informal discussion
about any new products. These sessions would be held within a team and
would be led by the team leader. I recall that it was common for these sessions
to be cancelled when the Helpline was busy, and eventually they stopped
altogether in around 2002/3.
Experience working in the NBSC
11.When I first joined as a Tier 2 advisor, I was responsible for handling any calls
which could not be dealt with by Tier 1 advisors and were escalated
accordingly. Examples of calls which would often be passed on to me included
questions about how to reverse transactions (such as where the Postmaster
had keyed something into Horizon incorrectly, or had accidentally scanned a
product twice). If the transaction could not be reversed, we would need to fill in
a form and send it to Chesterfield to resolve the error. For example, if the
Postmaster had pressed £100 instead of £10, we would need to arrange for a
recovery of £90. The NBSC Helpline was open until 10pm although I recall
occasionally getting calls shortly before closing time, which could go on until
much later (on one occasion until 11.45pm).
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12.When I moved into a Tier 1 advisor role in 2005 I was the first point of contact
for Postmasters calling the NBSC. The call would be assigned on a first come,
first served basis to whichever call handler had been available the longest,
although Postmasters could request to speak to a specific handler if they
wanted to. I would ask the Postmaster what the issue was, and what they
thought the errors were, and would also record the branch name and code.
Given many people had been Tier 2 advisors prior to the re-structure, they had
more knowledge than a typical Tier 1 advisor, and we were therefore often able
to resolve calls in the first instance.
13.When I started as a Tier 1 advisor in 2005, Tier 1 call handlers had a target of
around 180 seconds within which to resolve the call. I had a target of 168
seconds as I was more experienced and could therefore answer questions
more quickly. As far as I am aware, this target was based on a service level
agreement which required that Tier 1 calls were concluded within this time. In
my experience it was usually possible to resolve calls within this time as many
queries raised by Postmasters were not complicated. For example, I would
often receive calls asking for a specific stock code, which I could answer
immediately as I knew them off the top of my head. Other calls, for example
those relating to balancing, would usually take longer to resolve. If I knew the
answer, I would try to resolve the call myself even if it took longer than the time
limit. If I was not sure of the answer, or if I thought the call was going to take
considerably longer, then I would pass it on to the escalation team. Advisors
would be given their average call handling times and would be encouraged to
ensure their average time was below the limit, i.e. if one call took fifteen minutes
to resolve, you were supposed to bring down the average by concluding other
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calls more quickly. Target times increased over time, and by the time I stopped
being a Tier 1 advisor in 2022, the target time had increased to 500 seconds
and as far as I am aware, that remains the current target time. As far as I recall,
there was never a limit within which Tier 2 advisors were required to handle a
call.
14.When a Postmaster called the NBSC, we would ask them to explain the issue
they were having. If it was a technical issue, we would refer the call to the
Helpdesk run by Fujitsu (the "Helpdesk"). Examples of calls falling into this
category included anything to do the with the hardware, or the actual Horizon
system itself. If the call related to a counter process, we would talk the
Postmaster through how to process it on Horizon. This category included calls
relating to products, transactions and balancing. For example, over time more
transactions started involving the use of barcodes, so we would typically ask
the Postmaster whether the product had a barcode reference. As I recall we
would sometimes get questions about products after POL stopped selling them,
for example television licenses. As far as I am aware, guidance around which
advice line Postmasters should call under which circumstances was
communicated to Postmasters during their initial training on Horizon.
15.We would try to resolve the Postmaster's issue on one call. If that was not
possible, the Tier 1 advisor would refer the call to Tier 2 support. If a Tier 2
advisor was available, the Postmaster would be transferred immediately, on the
same call. If none of the Tier 2 advisors were available, a call back would be
arranged, which I think was supposed to happen on the same day if possible.
If a Postmaster became agitated, we would sometimes ask one of the NBSC
team leaders or managers to talk to them. When I was a Tier 2 advisor, I would
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sometimes discuss an issue with other Tier 2 colleagues to see if they had any
suggestions.
16.We were expected to log a call and record certain details including the branch
code, the name of the Postmaster, a summary of the issue they were
experiencing and the solution we had suggested. We had to enter something
into the resolution textbox before the call could be closed, and this would
indicate either a successful outcome or an escalation. Each call would also be
assigned a reference number. As far as I recall, I was not responsible for
assigning a priority level to calls.
Types of Calls
17.I have been asked to comment on the most common types of calls I received
and how they were resolved. In my experience, the most common type of call
was in relation to Postmasters inputting transactions incorrectly, which would
then require a reversal. For example, if a lottery transaction had been
processed on the wrong stock unit, you would need to reverse the transaction
before re-entering it into the lottery stock unit.
18.Another example was where a Postmaster had incorrectly recorded a banking
withdrawal as a deposit. As this kind of transaction was non-reversible, we
would have to send a mis-key form to Chesterfield to explain that a withdrawal
had been put through as a deposit, so the bank could be notified. The bank
would then contact the customer to confirm that the transaction was recorded
incorrectly. Once confirmed, the bank would send the information to POL's
banking team who would issue the transaction correction to the branch. If the
customer said the original transaction was correct, a transaction correction
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could not be issued and the Postmaster would be responsible for the loss (or
gain). From what I recall, this process could take several weeks to complete.
When I was a Tier 1 advisor, this kind of issue used to come up four to five
times per day. There were similar processes for other types of errors such as
mis-key errors when making automated payments.
19.In addition, Postmasters could order stock through the NBSC so this was
another type of call we would commonly receive.
20.Whenever new products were introduced or changes to the system were made
(for example, the introduction of contactless payments or scannable barcodes),
this usually led to a spike in calls. It was also usually busier on balancing
afternoons (which used to be Wednesdays), pension pay-out days (which used
to be Mondays) and bank holidays.
21.When a Postmaster called with a balancing issue, I would begin by asking how
large the discrepancy was, and then ask questions to try to find out if there was
anything that they had or had not done which might be responsible for the
discrepancy. I would ask the Postmaster to print a transaction log which would
contain all of their transactions for the previous 42 days. The log would show
the transaction carried out and the method of payment, and I would ask the
Postmaster to read it aloud. I would then help them to interpret the information
in the log, and consider whether there were any transactions that needed to be
reversed or transferred to a different stock unit. If there was a large discrepancy,
this might be caused by a mis-key error, for example someone accidentally
entering a remittance of £10,000 as £1,000, which would leave a discrepancy
of £9,000.
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22.I have been asked whether there are any specific requests for support which I
consider to be important to the Inquiry's terms of reference. I cannot recall any
examples which I consider to be particularly relevant.
Resources available to assist resolving calls for support
23.I have been asked to comment on the resources that were available to me to
assist with resolving calls for support.
24.When I first joined the NBSC we used Remedy, a system for logging calls and
for accessing solutions to common issues raised by Postmasters. When using
Remedy, it would ask the advisor to input categorisations for the call, such as
the product the issue relates to (e.g. lottery or TV licenses or BT), and the
process or procedure being attempted (e.g. counter procedure, or reversal).
After this, the system would give some suggested entries which appeared to
match the description. If they did not match the query I was assisting with, I
would sometimes have to recategorise the calls to find the right answer. These
entries then informed the solution we would suggest to the Postmaster. My
recollection is that the entries and scripts on Remedy were written before I
joined the NBSC, and that they were updated by the BSST (which I believe
stands for Business Service Support Team). I recall that this team included
Martin Green and Wendy Schofield. As far as I am aware, the BSST has been
responsible for updating scripts and guidance on Remedy/Dynamics
throughout my time at POL.
25.We also had hard copies of the counter operations manuals provided to
branches, which explained how to carry out transactions. There were separate
manuals on different topics, such as DVLA products or lottery products. We
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could also refer to the balancing guide given to Postmasters. The counter
operations manuals were digitised in around 2009 when Horizon Next
Generation was introduced.
26.My recollection of Remedy was that a lot of it was good, however occasionally
the information on Remedy was out of date or otherwise not very helpful. I think
the scripts were generally written by people who had not worked on the
counters in branch, which meant the solutions were sometimes impractical. For
example, when I started as a Tier 2 advisor, the suggested solution for a
balancing query was initially to refer it to the Helpdesk but we found that the
Fujitsu staff would often be unable to resolve the query because they did not
have an understanding of how the counters worked, and would therefore pass
the call back to NBSC Tier 2 advisors to resolve. As far as I can recall, it was
only in the first year of my time at the NBSC that balancing calls were passed
to Fujitsu. After that, instead of recommending that you transfer the call, there
were new categories on Remedy relating to balancing issues, and it would give
you a suggested solution. As far as I recall, we may have received some
additional training around this time in one of the regular weekly training
sessions.
27.If I was unable to find a solution on Remedy, I would speak to a more
experienced colleague in the NBSC, such as a team leader, to see if they knew
the answer to the query or who else might know the answer. Sometimes we
would ask the area manager to go into the branch to check what the issue was
and see if they could help.
28.Remedy was later superseded by Dynamics. I recall that Dynamics was
introduced around 2014. When a call came in, the process for logging it on
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Dynamics was similar to the process on Remedy. One difference was that calls
on Remedy would be given a reference number starting with 'H' whereas calls
on Dynamics were given a reference number starting with 'CAS'. You would
first categorise the call in four steps, then you would be presented with an article
containing a list of the correct steps that should have been followed to process
the transaction, and you would have to identify the relevant section of the article
to address the query. The articles on Dynamics are generally focused on the
process for carrying out transactions, or other branch processes such as
balancing.
29.In my current role as a Tier 2 advisor, I have access to a reporting system called
HORice, which produces reports on different branch data that I can use to assist
callers. This includes session data going back twelve months which shows
details of the transactions carried out in branch (similar to the transaction logs
printed in branch, but without abbreviations). I also have access to a report
called Rep Events, which shows cash, stock and currency declarations made
on Horizon, a balance reporting tool which highlights any discrepancies, and a
transaction correction tool showing transaction corrections at the branch. Prior
to having access to these tools I would have to ask the Postmaster to print out
transaction logs to identify where they thought they had made an error, but now
I can usually see it immediately. I do not know when these tools were introduced
as I only became aware of them when I took on the Tier 2 advisor role in 2022.
30.1 have been asked to comment on the adequacy of resources. My recollection
is that I generally felt that the resources available to me were good at the time
however with the benefit of hindsight, I can see that these may not have been
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sufficient. The resources and reporting tools available to me now are
considerably better than when I first joined.
Management of the NBSC team
3
=
.When I first joined the NBSC as a Tier 2 advisor, there were fourteen advisors
on the Tier 2 team. Within two years, there were nine teams of ten people and,
I believe, around twice as many Tier 1 advisors. As I recall, the number of
advisors remained consistently at this level until 2005 when the teams were
amalgamated (as described above at paragraph 6). After this, there were 100
Tier 1 advisors split into seven or eight teams, each with a team leader. There
was also an escalation team of about eight people. I cannot remember what
this team was called, but I recall we did not refer to it as Tier 2. This restructure
meant that many people were let go, however these were mostly the Tier 1
advisors on temporary contracts, whilst the Tier 2 advisors on full-time contracts
were generally retained. As set above at paragraph 12, many of the advisors
who joined Tier 1 in 2005 had previously been Tier 2 advisors and therefore did
not need to escalate calls as often as the previous Tier 1 advisors. There were
also more senior managers in the NBSC however I did not have much
interaction with them, as I would go to my team leader in the first instance.
32.In around 2014, three to four people were introduced whose role it was to walk
the floor where the advisors sat, and provide advice to anyone who put their
hand up to say they needed assistance. Now, I understand there are 40-50 Tier
1 advisors, and sixteen Tier 2 advisors.
33.As a Tier 1 advisor, we had weekly meetings in the form of the Work Time
Learning sessions, referred to in paragraph 10 above. We also had monthly
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appraisals with team leaders, during which we were scored on how we handled
calls. This would include assessing whether we were giving clear and accurate
information, and also the tone of our voice on the calls. They would listen to five
calls during an appraisal and you were expected to score above 80 out of 100
on average. If we did not meet this score we would be given advice on how to
improve.
Attitude of the NBSC towards Postmasters
34.From my point of view, if a Postmaster rang the NBSC it was because they
needed help and it was my job to help them. A small number of Postmasters
were difficult to get on with but I always tried to treat them with kindness and
found that if you called them by their name, and gave them a verbal smile, then
you could talk to them. There were one or two advisors who did not always
approach calls in the same way, and occasionally I heard arguments over the
phone. We were however instructed to keep a level and cordial tone when
speaking, to listen to the Postmaster before giving an answer and not to jump
in before the Postmaster had finished speaking.
Adequacy of support provided by NBSC
35.1 have been asked to comment on whether in my view, the NBSC provided
adequate support to Postmasters who called for assistance. In my view, we
tried our best to give Postmasters the support they required. There were one or
two Postmasters who seemed like they were never happy, no matter how much
support they were given. In my view this was often because they did not receive
the answer they were hoping for on the call, or because the necessary solution
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resulted in additional issues. But I would always try to give them the advice they
deserved, and I considered it my duty to help them sort out their problem.
36.! am not sure what the overall success rate was for calls. Based on my own
experience as a Tier 1 advisor I would estimate that 80-90% of the calls I took
were resolved successfully in the first instance, with the remaining 10-20%
being escalated further. I imagine that other Tier 1 advisors, who did not have
prior experience at Tier 2 level, may have needed to escalate a higher
proportion of calls.
37.As far as I recall there was no default process for Postmasters to provide
feedback on their experience of calling the NBSC. Over the years, a few
Postmasters have called to say thank you for my help on a call.
Awareness of bugs, errors or defects in the Horizon IT System
38.1 was not aware of any confirmed bugs, errors and defects in the Horizon IT
System, and as far as I can recall I was not told of any bugs, errors or defects
by either POL or Fujitsu. Though I am not a technical person, in my recollection
most of the issues raised by Postmasters on calls resulted from mistakes in
what had been typed into Horizon. Although I was aware that Postmasters had
made allegations about issues with the Horizon system, I remember receiving
some centralised communications from someone senior within POL shortly
before the Group Litigation Order ("GLO") saying that they had found Horizon
to be robust. This was communicated to the NBSC team leaders who passed
the message on to us. As far as I recall, POL never admitted there were any
problems with Horizon until after the GLO. After the GLO there was a dedicated
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team set up to respond to queries arising from that. I cannot recall the name of
this team, although I recall that Louise Liptrott worked in the team.
39.1 understand that many Postmasters must be feeling angry about what
happened to them as a result of issues with Horizon. Having worked on the
counter myself, I understand the pressures that Postmasters are under and I
do feel empathy for them. In my role in the NBSC, I always try my best to help
Postmasters with whatever issue they are having.
Statement of truth
I believe the content of this statement to be true.
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