Witness Name: Helen Rose
Statement No: WITN00790100
Dated: 10th May 2023
POST OFFICE HORIZON IT INQUIRY
FIRST WITNESS STATEMENT OF HELEN ROSE
I, Helen Rose, will say as follows:-
INTRODUCTION
1. I ama former employee of Post Office Limited.
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2. This witness statement is made to assist the Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry (the
“Inquiry”) with the matters set out in the Rule 9 Request dated 6" April 2023
(the “Request’).
BACKGROUND
3. I started work with Post Office in 1997. I spent approximately 2 years (until
1999) on the counters in the head office branches. For the following
approximately Syrs (from 1999 until 2004) I worked as an Auditor, completing
audits at branches from Lincoln up to the Scottish borders. For the following
2yrs (from approx. 2004 until 2006) I worked in the Security Team as an
Investigator. My remaining time at the Post Office was in various analytical
roles. I do not remember exact roles which often changed with internal
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reorganisation. I left the Post Office in 2016 and have had nothing further to do
with the Post Office or systems since.
. [have been asked to set out my understanding of the Security Team and the
Fraud & Conformance Team, my role within those teams and their structures.
I have been referred to documents to assist my recollection (POL00104906)
and (POL00105025). I have no clear recollection on specific roles within the
Security Team. As I worked in Security, I would have had day to day dealings
with some of the people in the team but have no recollection of anything
specific.
. As an auditor I visited numerous offices each week, sometimes alone
sometimes with others. My line manager was John Jenkinson for the latter part
of my time as an auditor but I don’t remember dates and think I had on the job
training but can’t remember anyone or specifics in training. I cannot recall
having specific Horizon training but may have had.
. I have been asked what I remember about ‘Grapevine’. The name rings a bell
but I have no recollection of who worked there or what they did.
. I have been asked about my relationship with those who worked in Fujitsu in
matters relating to Horizon and given names (Gareth Jenkins and Anne
Chambers) to see if I recall having worked with them, and if I have any
recollection of their knowledge of defects, bugs and errors in the Horizon
system. The various emails between myself and Gareth Jenkins indicate I
knew of him all those years ago, but I do not remember having had any specific
working relationship with Gareth Jenkins or anyone else in Fujitsu. I do not
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recall Anne Chambers. I do not believe I would have had any reason to know
their knowledge or roles.
8. I don’t recall raising any concerns regarding PO systems.
9. I have been asked to recall matters relating to Lee Castleton. I have been
referred to documents (POL00069514), (POL00069536), (POL00069562),
(POL00069623), (POL00069772), (POLO0070736), (POL00070763),
(POL00071047) and (POL00071744).
10.1 have no recollection of Lee Castleton or any issues or details regarding his
case. From the documents provided I can see I was the auditor at his office
but have no recollection of the audit or details.
11.1 have been referred to (POL00069527). I have no recollection of any email
or anything that was said to a Stephen Dilley
12.1 have been referred to the 2 statements I made in relation to Lee Castleton’s
case, (POL00082945) and (POLO0082946), and (POLO0071196) and
(POLO00071197). From the documents supplied I can see I was an auditor at
the time and clearly made a statement about the audit I did on his post office
branch. I am unable to make any further comment: it was an event almost 19
years ago.
13.1 have been referred to (POLO0070183), transcript of evidence I gave at a
hearing in Lee Castleton’s case. I have no recollection of the Lee Castleton
case and court proceedings.
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14.I have been asked if I have any recollection of civil actions in relation to the
following individuals:
a) Aslam Ramtoola
c) Kevin Palmer
d) Rachel Williams
e) Frank Holt
f) Susan McKnight
g) Tracey Etheridge
h) Katherine McAlerney
i) Keith Macaldowie
j) Julie Wolstenholme
15.1 do not recognise any of the names in the list and do not know of any matters
relating to their cases. I do not recall if I had any role in any cases involving
these individuals.
16.I have been asked if I had a role — as investigator or witness — in any case that
I might consider relevant to the matters being investigated by the public inquiry,
in particular bugs, errors and defects in the Horizon system. I have no
recollection.
17.1 have been asked if I have any recollection of criminal cases, and any
involvement I had, in relation to the following individuals:
a) Nichola Arch
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b) Susan Hazzleton
c) Lisa Brennan
d) David Yates
e) Carl Page
f) David Blakey
g) Tahir Mahmood
h) Oyeteju Adedayo
i) Hughie Thomas
j) Suzanne Palmer
k) Janet Skinner
1) Jo Hamilton
m) Pauline Stonehouse
n) Susan Rudkin
0) Julian Wilson
p) Peter Holmes
q) Seema Misra
r) Allison Henderson
s) Alison Hall
t) Joan Bailey
u) Lynette Hutchings
v) Grant Allen
w) Khayyam Ishaq
x) Angela Sefton and Ann Neild
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I have no recollection of any of the above, or of any prosecutions I may have
been involved in or may have been relevant to the Horizon system and matters
being investigated by the public inquiry.
18.1 have been referred to documents: (FUJ00123913) and its attachments
(FUJ00123914), (FUJ00123915), (FUJ00123916), (FUJ00123917),
(FUJ00123918), (FUJ00123919), and (FUJ00083737). I note that I am
described as “disclosure officer dealing with Horizon challenges”. I do not recall
ever having had a job role called ‘Disclosure Officer dealing with Horizon
challenges’. I am unable to make any comments what this role was about, or
who might have appointed me to it or any instructions I was given as to its aims
and objectives.
19.1 have been asked about matters relating to the Lepton SubPostoffice (“SPO”).
I have been referred to documents (POL00097437), (POL00097441),
(POL00097442), (POL00097447), (POL00097450), (POL00097453) and
(POL00097481).
20.1 cannot recall any details or dates relating to this matter 10 years ago. I do not
recall having had any concerns regarding Horizon transaction data. In
(POL00097481) there is a reference to “deeper issues”. I have no recollection
of this. I have been asked about Angela Van-Den-Bogerd, Gareth Jenkins,
Andrew Winn, Elaine Spencer specifically, I cannot recall any details from the
emails to and from Gareth Jenkins. Elaine Spencer was my line manager for a
short time during my latter years with PO but I don’t remember dates or
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anything specific or relevant issues. I don’t believe Elaine Spencer had any
Horizon knowledge.
21.Referring to documents (FUJ00086811) and (FUJ00030214) I can see that I
drafted and authored a report in June 2013.
22.I have been asked if I can recall any details around the report - who asked me
to produce it, why it was produced, its intended audience and what steps I took
to produce it. I have no recollection who asked me to produce the report.
23.1 do not recall any details of the emails or having any discussions with Gareth
Jenkins regarding the matters addressed in the report and documents
referenced.
24.1 have been asked if I can explain ARQ logs and what was done with them; I
have no clear recollection of ARQ logs.
25.1 cannot assist with any explanation as to what the reference to “horizon
integrity issues” means. I have no recollection.
26.In relation to the Horizon system, I can see that I stated, “I do believe the
system behaved as it should and do not see this scenario occurring regularly
and creating large losses”. These were clearly my thoughts then; I cannot add
anything else now.
27.Although I have read the report and recommendations made in report, I can
provide no further comments to the reference in the report that the data might
be “misinterpreted when giving evidence and using the same data for
prosecutions”.
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28.1 am unable to explain what actions may have been taken upon the comments
on the report. I do not know whether the recommendation in the report had
been adopted or not.
29.1 am unable to make any presumptions on who would have seen the report. I
do not recall or have any knowledge as to who it was sent to, whether it went
to anyone at management or executive level, or what they did with it.
30.1 do not have any recollection of any discussions with Angela Van-Den-Bogerd
regarding the matters addressed in the report.
31.1 have been asked to recall any knowledge I have of the complaint regarding
Michael Mann. I have been referred to document (POL00086843). I have no
recollection of this matter or the underlying fraud investigation, and/or the
conduct of the Post Office fraud investigators.
32.1 was never aware of complaints being made regarding my conduct during an
audit or investigation.
33.1 do not recall ever having concerns regarding the conduct of Post Office
auditors and investigator colleagues.
34.1 do not recall any involvement with investigations, advice or reports into
Horizon IT system or the prosecutions that were carried out by the following
groups/individuals:
a) Second Sight
b) Cartwright King
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c) Simon Clark (of Cartright King)
d) Brian Altman KC
e) Jonathan Swift KC
f) The Bates & Others Group Litigation
35.1 did not follow the events of trials or take any notice of reporting in the media.
I left the PO in 2016 and have had no connections with anything PO related
since.
Statement of Truth
I believe the content of this statement to be true.
Signed: '
Helen Rose
Dated: 10/05/2023
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Index to First Witness Statement of Helen Rose
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URN
Document Description
Control Number
POL00104906
Fraud & Conformance Team:
Team Leader Handover document
by Cathy Macdonald (3 March
2012)
POL-0080538
POL00105025
Security Team Objectives April
2013 — March 2014 (01 April 2014)
POL-0080657
POL00069514
Telephone attendance note,
meeting with Helen Rose re Lee
Castleton case (3 October 2006)
POL-0066077
POL00069536
Email from Stephen Diley to
Jacqueline Whitham re old audit
required PO v Castleton
(28 September 2006)
POL-0066099
POLO0069562
Email from Stephen Dilley to
Helen Rose re second witness
statement of Helen Rose: PO v
Castleton (26 September 2006)
POL-0066125
POL00069623
Bond Pearce Rolling Task List
Version 1: POL v Castleton (18
August 2006)
POL-0066186
POL00069772
Email from Stephen Dilley to
Richard Morgan re Marine Drive
on 23 March 2004 PO v Castleton
(10 November 2006)
POL-0066335
POL00070736
Email from Stephen Dilley to Vicky
Harrison and Cath Oglesby re: The
Post Office -v- Lee Castleton
(Marine Drive Post Office,
Birdlington) (7 December 2005)
POL-0067299
POL00070763
Telephone attendance- Helen
Rose (6 December 2005)
POL-0067326
10
POL00071047
Telephone attendance- Helen
Rose (23 August 2006)
POL-0067610
11
POL00071744
Telephone Attendance of Stephen
Dilley on 29/11/2006 with 1.
Richard Morgan 2. Mrs Castleton
POL-0068307
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3. Helen Rose 4. Mr Castleton 5.
Further call with R.Morgan in
matter of Castleton (29 November
2006)
12
POL00069527
Email from Carol King to Stephen
Diley re PO v Castleton (29
September 2006)
POL-0066090
13
POL00082945
Witness statement of Helen Rose
in HQ05X02706 dated 11.01.06 in
support of POL application to
extend time and set aside default
judgment (11 January 2006)
POL-0079508
14
POL00082946
Exhibit HR/1- Helen Rose's
Witness Statement POL v
Castleton (11 January 2006)
POL-0079509
15
POL00071196
Helen Rose Second Witness
Statement in POL v Castleton (4
October 2006)
POL-0067759
16
POL00071197
Exhibit HR2 referred to in Helen
Rose’s second witness statement
in POL v Castleton (9 October
2006)
POL-0067760
17
POL00070183
Official Transcript of Evidence of
Helen Rose and others in The
Post Office v Lee Castleton (11
December 2006)
POL-0066746
18
FUJ00123913
Email from Gareth Jenkins to
James Davidson and Edward
Phillips; re: Horizon Fujitsu Report
Very Important (2 October 2012)
POINQ0130127F
19
FUJ00123914
Fujitsu/Post Office Horizon
Integrity report about
investigations into the integrity of
the Horizon system; V0.1a (2
October 2012)
POINQ0130128F
20
FUJ00123915
Audit flowchart (2 October 2012)
POINQ0130129F
21
FUJ00123916
Audit flowchart 2 (2 October 2012)
POINQ0130130F
22
FUJ00123917
Fujitsu/Post Office Horizon Data
Integrity report describing
measures that are built into
POINQ0130131F
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Horizon to ensure data integrity;
V1.0 (2 October 2012)
23
FUJ00123918
Draft (v 0.1b) Report by Gareth
Jenkins, "describing the measures
that are built into Horizon Online
to ensure data integrity"
(2 April 2012)
POINQ0130132F
24
FUJ00123919
Audit flowchart 3 (2 October 2012)
POINQ0130133F
25
FUJ00083737
Witness Statement of Gareth Idris
Jenkins V 5.0 (8 October 2010)
POINQ0089908F
26
POL00097437
Email from Helen Rose to Angela
Van-Den-Bogerd re: AP recoveries
(30 January 2013)
POL-0097020
27
POL00097441
Email from Helen Rose to Gareth
Jenkins re: AP recoveries (30
January 2013)
POL-0097024
28
POL00097442
Email from Helen Rose to Gareth
Jenkins re: transaction log (30
January 2013)
POL-0097025
29
POL00097447
Email from Elaine Spencer to
Dave Pardoe re: transaction log
(30 January 2013)
POL-0097030
30
POL00097450
Email chain from Angela Van-Den-
Bogerd to Gareth Jenkins, Thomas
Penny and others RE: transaction
log (31 January 2013)
POL-0097033
31
POL00097453
Email from Helen Rose to Angela
Van-Den-Bogerd and Elaine
Spencer re: transaction log (31
January 2013)
POL-0097036
32
POL00097481
Email from Helen Rose to Dave
Posnett, RE: FW: Lepton logs (13
February 2013)
POL-0097064
33
FUJ00086811
Horizon data, Lepton SPSO
191320, Draft Report by Helen
Rose (12 June 2013)
POINQ0092982F
34
FUJ00030214
PinlICL Expor PCO0O30764 re
Customer Mr Steve Renod/0171
35 (7 October 1999)
POINQ0036385F
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35
POL00086843
Report into the behaviour of the
security investigation regarding
the alleged fraud committed by
Michael Mann, Post Office
Manager, Turnstone Road Post
Office
(9 December 2013)
POL-0083901
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