WITNO5720100
WITNO05720100
Witness Name: Carola Ramsden
Statement No.: WITN05720100
Dated: \s\s\a~=
POST OFFICE HORIZON IT INQUIRY
FIRST WITNESS STATEMENT OF CAROLA RAMSDEN
1, CAROLA RAMSDEN will say as follows...
INTRODUCTION
1. I was employed by Post Office Ltd from 1986 until September 2006, where I
undertook a number of roles within this time period.
2. This witness statement is made to assist the Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry
with the matters set out in the Rule 9 Request dated 3 April 2023.
3. I began my career as a Post Office Counter Clerk at Keighley Branch Office in
1986 and would also during my time there cover for the Branch Manager.
Page 1 of 12
WITNO5720100
WITNO05720100
. In 1990 I was employed as an Agency Trainer in the Bradford Area office,
whereby I trained new Subpostmasters in a classroom environment as well as
at their own branch when they were appointed. This training was all paper
based.
. In 1993 after the Post Office reorganisation I was employed as a Training
Coordinator in Leeds. This involved coordinating and scheduling a number of
trainers across the region for them to carry out training for new
Subpostmasters.
. In 1995 I was promoted to the role of Transactional Knowledge Manager. This
role involved managing and organizing events in the evenings for
Subpostmasters to improve their knowledge of transactions. It was delivered
by means of a computer-based quiz with any gaps in knowledge being
addressed.
. From February 1999 to September 2001 I was employed as a Retail Network
Manager in Bradford and then subsequently in Sheffield when I was promoted
to CM1 to cover a colleagues sick leave. I was responsible for approximately
30-50 branches motivating and assisting Subpostmasters to manage their
branches effectively in a customer friendly way.
. As part of the Retail Network Manager role I would also be responsible for
recruiting Subpostmasters as well as taking any disciplinary action if required.
. In September 2001 after another re-organisation I was employed as a
Contracts Manager for the Rural Agency Network for the North East Region.
This role was to maintain the end-to-end recruitment process as well as to
provide guidance on contractual and remuneration issues to team members
Page 2 of 12
WITNO5720100
WITNO05720100
and Heads of Area. I was also responsible for handling legal cases for the
area liaising with legal services where appropriate. I left this role in June 2004.
10.In 2004 I was employed as an Operations Manager for the Regional Agency
Network. This role was project based and involved designing processes for
Mailwork branches; reducing costs to the business by ensuring process were
in place to reduce cash in the network; Managing, monitoring and controlling
the budget of the Government fund for the Capital Subsidy start up scheme
for rural post offices and the flexible fund.
11.My final role was from March 2005 until September 2006 was a Service
Standards Support Manager/Restrictions Manager, this was a band 9 role. I
was responsible for the development and review of processes for the service
teams; responsible for implementation for E Recruitment for Post Office Ltd;
Providing guidance and advice on contractual matters to line managers.
12.I have 7 O levels from school and college.
13.1 can recollect attending in-house training on how to manage people, sales
training, as well as manager training days. These were throughout my career.
I also attended conferences where training and team building was provided. In
the 1990s I undertook an Open University course called the Capable
Manager. Most of the training within the Post Office was via shadowing and
mentoring other colleagues who performed the same role.
14.As stated above I was promoted throughout my career from a Post Office
Clerk to a Senior Band 9.
Page 3 of 12
WITNO5720100
WITNO5720100
Contractual liability of Subpostmasters for shortfalls
15.1 have been asked to consider the following documents, and answer a number
questions relating to the Contractual liability of Subpostmasters for shortfalls:
POL00083939, POL00088904, POL00086845, POLO0088867, and
POL00030562.
16.1 have been asked what the contractual position as to the responsibility for
SPMs for shortfalls or “losses” identified within their branch was at the
time I worked for the Post Office. My understanding of the contractual
obligation for losses within the Subpostmasters branch was that they were
responsible for making good any losses incurred. This was always defined
in their contract and also as part of the training process.
17.During my time as both an Agency Trainer, Retail Network Manager and
Contracts Manager this was always the same.
18.In terms of larger losses Subpostmasters could hold them in the suspense
account if permission was given by the Retail Network Manager and
subsequently the Helpline.
19.1 have been asked how the Post Office policy on the responsibility of
employees within Crown Offices for shortfalls and “losses” in a Crown Office
differed from the policy for SPMS for shortfalls and losses in their branch.
Having not worked within the Crown Network as a manager my only
recollection is when I worked on the counter at Keighley Post Office of how
losses were dealt with is that they were recorded and over a certain limit I
think it was three or more losses disciplinary action would be taken. I believe
Page 4 of 12
WITNO5720100
WITNO5720100
that counter clerks were not responsible for making good the losses whereas
Subpostmasters were.
20.1 am unaware of the disciplinary action taken against Crown Office employees
for losses or whether legal action was taken as I had never been involved with
the Crown Office Network and its employees in relation to shortfalls.
Policies and Practices
21.1 have been asked to explain the relevant roles I held at the Post Office
between 1986 and 2006, and my involvement in policies/practices relating to
error notices, transaction corrections/acknowledgements, branch
discrepancies and “corrective action” taken against SPMs.
22.As an Agency trainer I would go out to branches following losses and retrain
Subpostmasters on procedures/processes within the branch. This would be
because they were receiving error notices from either Chesterfield or the
Remittance Unit and my role was to ensure they understood why they made
the errors and knew the correct procedures.
23.1 was employed as a Retail Network Manager between February 1999 and
September 2001. During this time I would assist Subpostmasters who had
error notices to both understand what they were, investigate and try to resolve
any unknown errors and to ensure they made good losses. I would also on
occasions assist Subpostmasters who had mis-balanced trying to identify their
losses and double check their balances on their balancing day.
24.In terms of the investigations undertaken by me as an RNM I would look at all
the paperwork to try to identify any loss, comparing stock from the current
Page 5 of 12
WITNO5720100
WITNO5720100
week to the previous; recounting stock and cash. Prior to Horizon daily
documents would have been checked but after Horizon was installed it was
harder to identify missing documentation as bills etc were electronic.
Chesterfield and or the remittance unit would also be contacted to ascertain
whether there were any pending error notices.
25.As a Contracts Manager I would interview Subpostmasters regarding losses
following an audit. The interviews were investigative interviews following the
audit whereby the loss was not declared and cash holdings over inflated to
cover the loss or held in the suspense without authority.
26. The Subpostmaster would be brought into an interview by their Retail Network
Manager and I would also be in attendance and chair the interview. A
Subpostmaster always had the right at interviews to have a colleague or
National Federation of Subpostamaters representative (NFSP).
27. Following the investigative interview further follow up investigations may have
been carried out to check what Subpostmasters disputed during interviews or
if any other information came to light this would be by reviewing the accounts,
error logs, transaction logs and trying to establish if any error notices had
come to light.
28. A Subsequent interview would then be conducted by the Retail Network
Manager and myself to determine the conclusion with an outcome. Again this
was with a NFSP representative or colleague of the Subpostmaster if they
requested this. Following the outcome the Subpostmaster had the right of
appeal which would be held by a Senior Manager. The outcome of the
interview could range from no action, a warning, final written warning or
dismissal.
Page 6 of 12
WITNO5720100
WITNO5720100
29.1 have been asked who made the final decision whether to pursue legal
action. Legal action would I believe be decided between the Head of Area
and the Post Office Legal team.
30.1 was in the Contract Manager role from Sept 2001 - June 2004. I cannot
tecollect any specific incidents regarding error notices but in most cases
Subpostmasters had not declared the loss but had inflated their cash on hand
figures to cover up a loss.
3
.If a Subpostmaster disputed a large loss time would be given to allow any
error notices to come through the system this amount would be held in the
suspense account. A large loss would usually mean over a couple of hundred
pounds otherwise the Subpostmaster would have to make good the loss or
give reasons or prove financial hardship to repay over a period of time. The
onus was on the Subpostmaster to prove the loss, although as an RNM I
would try and assist in trying to identify any loss.
32.1 have been asked to consider the following documents and answer a number
of questions in relation to error notices, transaction corrections and
acknowledgements and branch _ discrepancies: POL00083939,
POLO00088904, NFSP00000169, NFSP00000043, POL00085794,
POL00030562, POL00083951, and POL00083952.
33.1 have been asked after the introduction of Branch Trading, what an Error
Notice was. Error Notices were issued by Chesterfield, remittance units and
National Savings Bank (NSB). Errors were issued prior to Horizon being
Page 7 of 12
WITNO5720100
WITNO05720100
introduced in paper format and would be for example the giro slips, telephone
stubs or other paperwork not matching to the submitted cash accounts or
daily summary. Subpostmasters would send in daily transactions to various
departments and then submit a weekly cash account, if the stubs didn’t match
then an error notice would be issued whether it be in favour or a loss to the
Subpostmaster.
34. Error notices could also be issued if a customer had complained to Post
Office Ltd about a bill not being processed and they would have the paper
receipt with the Subpostmasters date stamp to prove it had been paid.
35.1 have been asked after the introduction of Branch Trading, what a transaction
correction (“TC”) and what a transaction acknowledgement (“TA”) was.
Following the introduction of Horizon these error notices were then called
transaction corrections which I believe were sent electronically on to the
system. The transaction correction was an instruction to the Subpostmaster
of what the error was and a transaction acknowledgement was that they
acknowledged that error and accepted it as being their error.
36.For both Error notices and Transaction corrections Subpostmasters could
dispute the error but would need to provide evidence as to why they were
disputing the error.
37.As part of the balancing process Subpostmasters would declare their loss
and when signing the cash account they were declaring they had made it
good.
38.1 can not recollect what the amount was for which Subpostmasters could
settle centrally or what the process was at the time.
Page 8 of 12
WITNO5720100
WITNO5720100
IMPACT Programme
39.1 have been asked about the IMPACT programme, and the role the local
suspense account played before its removal. I cannot recollect the
Impact programme, although vaguely remember Subpostmasters not
having to submit a balance on a weekly basis which had always been the
case from when I started at the Post Office.
40. If a Subpostmaster was unable to make good the loss due to the amount
incurred, they could prior to Horizon ask the Retail Network Manager to
hold it in the suspense account, following Horizon it would be via the
helpline. As an RNM the loss would be held if there was a potential error
notice known i.e. the Subpostmaster could identify the error or for further
investigations to take place.
41.1 cannot recollect what the helpline process was for allowing Subpostmasters
to put losses in the suspense account but presume it would be the same as
the the RNM reasons.
42.1 have been asked if “settling centrally" meant acceptance of a debt liability.
My understanding is that Subpostmasters had to make good all losses under
the terms of their contract and if they didn’t have any evidence to dispute the
error they would need to make it good. The document POL00026854 was
after my time at Post Office Ltd so I cannot comment on this document.
Page 9 of 12
WITNO5720100
WITNO5720100
43. I agree that in the majority of cases when a TC or error notice was issued it
would be the Subpostmaster or their assistants that had made the error. The
error notices should have been backed up by receipts, evidence when sent
through to the Subpostmaster.
44. I left the business in September 2006 so have no knowledge of events after
that time.
ri ken inst mi rs
45.I have been asked to consider a memo sent by me to Contract and Service
Managers, along with other recipients (POL00083945). This document was
sent out by me as guidance for Contract and Service Managers to improve
performance in the Agency outlets.
46.1 have no evidence of any corrective action against Subpostmasters
following the issue of this document. However it would be expected that the
managers would discuss any issues with the Subpostmaster and put in an
action plan/re-training and support to identify any learnings needed to reduce
the errors.
47.I cannot now recall the Subpostmasters contract to determine what would
constitute a material breach of contract as referred to in the para 3.4 in the
document (POL00083945) but would suggest one as a breach of security.
48. During all my time as a Manager at the Post Office I was only involved with
Agency Branches and had no dealings with the Crown Network.
49. Following an audit where a discrepancy was discovered my role as a
Page 10 of 12
contracts Manager was to investigate the loss by checking transaction
logs, error notices, cash accounts and by interviewing the
Subpostmaster. My role would also have been to determine any false
accounting and any penalty as an outcome of the investigation.
Recovery of Agents Debt
50. If a Subpostmaster settled centrally then it would have not come to my
attention unless a discrepancy was found at audit.
51.Up until I left the Post Office my understanding of the losses and gains
policy was that Retail Network Managers could write off losses for new
Subpostmasters or if they had financial hardship and a payment plan
would be put in place.
52.1 am unaware as to how often relief was given.
Statement of Truth
I believe the content of this statement to be true.
Dated: SS\S(3 0
Page II of 12
WITNO5720100
WITNO5720100
Index to Witness Statement of Carola Ramsden
WITNO5720100
WITNO05720100
“6
URN
POL00083939
Post Office Ltd Guidance on
Losses at SPSO's: Guidelines
on Responsibilities and
Recovery Arrangements
POL-0080997
POL00088904
Post Office Ltd Policy on Losses
and Gains within the POCL
Agency Network
POL-0085962
POLO0086845
Post Office Ltd Security Policy:
Accounting Losses Policy for
Agency Branches
POL-0083903
POL00088867
Post Office Ltd: Liability for
Losses Policy for agency
branches v2.0 January 2004
POL-0085925
POLO0030562
PO Overarching Losses Policy
POL-0027044
NFSP00000169
Letter circulated to the National
Executive Council enclosing
correspondence regarding debt
recovery process dated 17
December 2004
ViS00007617
NFSP00000043
Negotiating Committee for
Horizon debt recovery
VIS00007491
POL00085794
Debt Recovery Process under
Branch Trading
POL-0082852
POL00083951
Process for Awaiting TC
(Transaction Correction) -
Multiples - v1
POL-0081009
10.
POL00083952
Process for awaiting TC
(Transaction Correction) -
singletons - v1
POL-0081010
11.
POL00083945
Agency Changes Communique
from Carola Ramsden to
Contract and Service Managers,
Heads of Area, Heads of Sales,
SAMs/RSMs
POL-0081003
Page 12 of 12