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Witness Name: JULIE KAY (nee WOLSTENHOLME)
Statement No: WITN09020100
Dated:30 June 2023
POST OFFICE HORIZON IT INQUIRY
FIRST WITNESS STATEMENT OF JULIE KAY (nee WOLSTENHOLME)
I, Julie Kay will say as follows:
1. lam providing this statement following a request for information pursuant to
Rule 9 of the Inquiry Rules 2006, regarding matters falling within Phase 4 of
the Inquiry: action taken by Post Office Ltd against Subpostmasters, dated 4
May 2023.
Background:
2. I was around 8 years old when my parents bought their first Post Office in
North Shore, Blackpool. A couple of years later we moved to Haslingden and
they ran the Main Sub Post Office there for about 10 years before moving
back to Blackpool in 1990.
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3. When I left school at 16 years I tried my hand at several things until I was 18. I
then went to work for my father in the Post Office. For the last couple of years
before they sold the office, I used to be in charge of the office on Saturdays
allowing my mother and father to visit their caravan at the weekends. I moved
to Cleveleys shortly after my parents and I got a job at Cleveleys Crown Post
Office. If my memory is correct the office was re-graded into an MSPO (Main
Sub Post Office) in 1990 and this is when my father took over and bought the
business. He bought the business for approximately £75,000 and he paid
£17,500 per annum rent to POCL. During this time my father had a heart
attack and had to have a triple heart bypass. I ran the office for approximately
8 weeks while he was in hospital and POCL were happy with my conduct.
4. A few years later POCL contacted my father regarding a rent increase and
this is when he found out, through someone at Royal Mail, that POCL were
renting the building from Royal Mail for a peppercorn rent. So he enquired
whether it would be possible to find his own property and have the Post Office
moved in to it. This was agreed and my father purchased a building on
Runnymede Ave and it was built to POCL specification. The doors were
opened in 1996 and he ran it with my mother until his retirement in 1999.
5. When he decided to retire I felt it was the perfect time for me to carve out a
future for myself. It was a business I knew and loved, being brought up ina
post office from an early age. My children were at a good age for me to go
back to work full time and I knew it was a good viable business. The Post
Office accepted my application and a price of £150,000 was agreed to buy the
premises and business. Myself and my partner at the time secured a loan of
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£100,000 from the Yorkshire Bank and borrowed £50,000 from my parents.
We also had to pay an interim payment of £20,000 to POCL. This was a huge
commitment but I was confident it would be a long term investment. It was
agreed we would repay my parents £10,000 a year for the next 5 years and
the loan from the Yorkshire Bank was to be repaid over 10 years. I knew the
basic income was approximately £75,000 per annum, this was enough to pay
the staff, make the repayments to the bank and my parents and have enough
left to live on.
6. I took over as Sub Postmaster in November 1999 and the staff my father
employed, who I had worked with for many years, were happy to stay on and
work for me: Ray Knight, Avril Kirby, Liz Ormorod, Sandra, Leslie, Mavis and
Linda. My mother continued to work part time. From November 1999 to
February 2000 the office ran smoothly and my RNM (Retail Network
Manager) was happy with my performance.
Installation of Horizon and early issues
7. Prior to the Horizon system being installed in our office, myself and my staff
were sent on compulsory training to obtain a certificate needed to use the
system. This consisted of one and half days for me, and 1 day for the staff.
The Horizon system installation was compulsory; POCL decided how many
units were needed, where they were put and on what day they were installed.
POCL had promised everybody that when Horizon was installed the work load
would be lighter and balances a lot quicker.
8.
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It was installed in February 2000. After the first couple of weeks and
subsequent balances, I quickly realised our work load had increased and
queues had lengthened, as everyone was doing the same work as before plus
more because of having to then input all work done into the system. I hoped
that over time it would become more efficient, as promised.
Almost from the day Horizon was installed in the office I had countless
problems, these carried on for 10 months with very little help from POCL. It
was an extremely upsetting and stressful time, but we had no option other
than to continue using the system. At one point I was told by my RNM, Elaine
Tagg,to work a manual system alongside the computers which would have
been an almost impossible task because of the already increased workload.
This was a little confusing as only a couple of months earlier I was told by my
RNM that I was checking all the work thoroughly and there was no need to do
that because of the computers. The system was crashing up to six times per
day, the main base unit being swapped out many times, ghost transactions
and more importantly, excessive misbalances. My father kept a record of the
problems, he wrote draft letters (letters that were never sent). I attach a draft
letter highlighting the problems with the Horizon system attached to this
statement at WITN09020113. The system would alter, swap or delete of its
own accord. I was constantly on the phone to the Horizon helpdesk. I have
copies of call logs relating to my calls and queries. The Inquiry have provided
me with call logs for the period covering March 2000 to September 2001, and
they are — with the Inquiry document reference number — as follows:
FUJ00055145 PINCL 2/11/00
FUJ00121257
FUJ00121259
FUJ00121278
FUJ00121308
FUJ00121396
FUJ00121430
FUJ00121446
FUJ00121448
FUJ00121456
FUJ00121470
FUJ00121471
FUJ00121472
FUJ00121473
FUJ00121474
FUJ00121477
Call
Call
Call
Call
Call
Call
Call
Call
Call
Call
Call
Call
Call
Call
Call
07/03/2000
08/03/2000
22/03/2000
08/04/2000
30/08/2000
01/11/2000
29/11/2000
29/11/2000
27/12/2000
30/05/2001
02/06/2001
26/06/2001
10/07/2001
08/08/2001
05/09/2001
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The call logs I have kept in my paperwork, and that are a little more detailed
than the above, are at WITN09020101, WITN09020102 and WITN09020103.
I also have an analysis of call logs that Jan Holmes undertook; this is at
WITN09020105.
10.In various calls I was told by an engineer
- that the office should have a Pentium 3 processor, not a Pentium 2;
- there was a suspected hardware fault;
- there was a consistent ISDN failure and the lines seemed to be losing
packets.
Also in one month alone the system had 3 major communication failures and I
lost count of how many times I was asked to reboot the computers. It was a
very frustrating time.
11.1 was in continuous contact with my RNM, requesting she get me some expert
help. She regularly came to the office to see if I was using the system
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correctly and tried to help with balancing the office numerous times. She
herself experienced problems and also said it was the slowest system she
had used. But still, no one would actually admit there were any issues with the
system. I actually received a plant and a card from her as an apology for the
inconvenience I was suffering due to Horizon.
12.1 tried everything I could to find out why we were misbalancing. I took on a
mammoth task of setting up each member of staff with their own individual
stock units so they would balance their own till every week. This was to check
that they were all using Horizon correctly. I even put CCTV in the office just to
check no one was stealing money, which was an awful thing to do as I trusted
all of my staff. Every Wednesday I had to balance the office. If it resulted in a
shortfall I was responsible for the loss. I had to contact my RNM when the
office didn’t balance. Due to some very high losses and the problems I was
having with Horizon she allowed some of the shortfalls to carry over to the
following weeks, meaning I didn’t have to pay it back immediately.
13.After around 5 months I asked my RNM if I could revert back to the manual
system just to prove that the misbalancing the office was experiencing was
due to Horizon and not through mistakes of my own. I was told this was not an
option. A couple of months later I was contacted by a liaison manager,
Claudia Walker from ICL Pathways. Claudia was in charge of sorting out
offices that were having problems with their systems. She was due to come
back to the office again shortly before the office was closed down, this was
because ICL Pathways believed I had major hardware and software
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problems. I’m not sure why, knowing my RNM experienced some problems,
but Claudia was told - I believe by my RNM - that there were no problems with
the system and subsequently Claudia Walker was unwilling to speak to me.
14.1 have some account documents that showed how the accounts were not
matching up. I attach document POL00095358 provided to me by the Inquiry;
this is an accounts docket showing details for Oct/Nov 2000. I also attach a
draft letter from my father dealing with dockets at WITN090201 14.
Events leading up to suspension and termination:
15. The final straw was on 29th November 2000 when I was unable to balance
my office because of the problems with the system. I had been asking for help
from the Horizon helpdesk all evening and then they told me the system still
had major software problems, the stock units were beyond redemption and
under their instructions I was told it would be impossible for me to balance
and to switch everything off and go home as the system was inoperable.
16.Later that night, whilst thinking about the 10 months of continuous problems
with the Horizon system and an overall shortfall of over £18,000,I decided I
was going to ring my RNM the following morning and explain I was going to
revert back to the old manual way of running and balancing the office.
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17.1 made the phone call and said I would not use the Horizon system again until
all the problems were sorted, but also asked, if she could guarantee Horizon
was 100% operable then I would continue to use it. She told me she was
coming straight to the office.
18.When she arrived, on 30 November, she handed me a letter, dated that day,
the contents of which stated I was being suspended. The suspension letter is
at WITN09020104. The letter gives no reason or explanation for my
suspension; it just states “This letter is to confirm that I have suspended you
from your contract for services at Cleveleys MSPO with effect from today....”
In speaking with me, she said there was nothing wrong with the system. I
asked her on what grounds she was suspending me, I told her I wanted to
keep the Post Office open running, using the traditional methods, even
knowing it would produce a greater amount of work for me but I knew that was
nothing compared to all the problems I encountered with the Horizon system.
Her response was that she did not need to give me any grounds at the
present time as to why I had been suspended.
19.She then demanded the keys to the building, which I refused to hand over as I
owned the building. So she instructed me to get rid of the customers who
were waiting to be served, which was an awful thing to have to do, and I was
then told to send my staff home and lock the doors. I was told I now had to
repay all the outstanding losses which my RNM had allowed me to roll each
week until my suspension, approximately £15,000, plus my wages of
£19,322.85 (3 months) were also withheld after my suspension. The Yorkshire
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Bank told me that someone had contacted them about my loss of the Post
Office. I don’t know who that was but the person I had the most dealings with
at the Post Office at this time was my RNM. The Yorkshire Bank called in the
loan and I narrowly escaped receivership.
20.1 sought advice — I really only had my RNM to go to - as to my options after
the closure and was told the usual procedure involved POCL appointing an
interim sub postmaster to our office, a fair rent being decided and then the
chance to sell on the business.
21. There were local newspaper articles about my difficulties in the Cleveleys
branch. These were at the end of 2000/early 2001. I attach clippings that I
have kept (WITN09020106, WITN09020107, WITN09020108) and the Inquiry
has provided me with another — see page 3 of POL00095364.
22.On the 8" December 2000 I was contacted by a Mr Asif Patel who said he
had been appointed by my RNM as the relief Post Office Manager and asked
if I had any objection to him coming to see me. I said I didn’t and he came to
see me a few days later. He asked for certain figures, my salary, overheads,
outgoings etc and I supplied him with what he wanted to know. I suggested he
pay me a rent of £1250 per month, this would then cover my loan repayment
with the Yorkshire Bank. I then received a phone call from my RNM saying the
amount I wanted to charge for rent was ridiculous and £625 per month would
be an acceptable figure. Bearing in mind my father was paying much more
than this to POCL 8 years ago, obviously I had to turn down that offer. My
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RNM then contacted a rent assessor who suggested £1300 per month as a
fair rent. It was essential a fair rent was agreed in order to appoint a relief
manager and keep the office open.
23.1 didn’t know negotiations had broken down until I read in the local newspaper
that POCL were advertising for a new Postmaster and new premises. I
couldn't help feeling that my RNM was intent on closing the office
permanently and maybe it was a calculated plan to get the Post Office moved
to a more central position. My office remained empty. My father addressed
this in another one of his draft letters, at WITN09020112. I was aware that
POCL wanted to close around 7000 Post Offices around the country. Also by
closing my office, POCL would be able to save £225,000 due to them not
having to pay the compensation figure of 2 % times the salary.
24. In the time that followed the closure I tried to contact Claudia Walker to see if
she could help. I think I got to speak to her briefly. My recollection is that she
couldn’t speak to me properly as she was in danger of losing her job and as
far as POCL were concerned the matter was closed.
25.1 contacted The Federation of Sub Postmasters, the union made up of
Postmasters like myself. I spoke and sent correspondence to my local
representatives, Bill Brookes and Phil Howarth. I had heard about a couple of
Post Offices that seemed to be going through similar problems as myself but it
wasn’t until I went to a few meetings with my local representatives that I found
out there were other Postmasters experiencing similar problems.
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Unfortunately, when I started trying to contact some of these Postmasters
they were very wary about what they said and no one wanted the
conversations to go any further. Everyone was worried about making waves
and more importantly losing their jobs. I felt like everyone was closing ranks
and I was totally alone. Even the National Executive of the federation, Hugh
Morgan-Jones told me he could not assist as correct procedures had been
followed in my suspension and consequent termination. Yet the letter I
received dated 19 January 2001 stated my contract would be terminated in 3
months and the date of termination would be 28 February 2001. This was
incorrect as the proper date of termination should have been 20 April 2001.
Civil proceedings:
26. It was at this point I believed I had no choice but to enlist the help of a
solicitor, someone outside of the Post Office. I think it was early 2001 that I
enlisted the help of Peter Lawson, a solicitor from Lawsons, Samuel &
Capaldi solicitors. There was a lot of information and research that my
solicitor needed to do and the costs quickly started mounting. Unfortunately I
couldn't get any legal aid. This, along with not being able to meet the loan
repayments or the payments to my mum and dad I had no choice but to sell
my house as I had some equity. This was used to pay off some of my
mounting debts.
27.My ex partner left me and walked away from all responsibility. Myself and my
3 children aged 9, 5 & 4 had to move into my parent's caravan in Longridge,
around 20 miles away. It was hard, commuting every day to get my children to
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school, so my parents bought a small caravan which was put in their yard and
this is where myself and my children slept. I used the back office in the empty
Post Office building as a place for my children to use when they weren’t at
school/nursery. It was a small room as POCL large safes were still in the
room.
28.Post Office Counters Limited issued proceedings against me in the Blackpool
County Court. My solicitor pursued a counter claim on my behalf for wrongful
dismissal. I don’t have many of the papers from the court proceedings but I
have found 3 witness statements that were served by POCL on me: these are
attached at WITN09020117, WITN09020118, WITN09020119, statements of
Jan Holmes, Keith Baines,Elaine Cottam (Tagg) and, all dated August 2004.
29.A key part of the civil case was when my solicitor found an IT specialist, Jason
Coyne, in June 2003, who was happy to produce a report based on the call
logs between myself and Horizon that I had in my possession. All of the
documents I have from and related to Jason Coyne producing an opinion are
at WITN09020115 and WITN09020116. In January 2004, Jason Coyne
produced an opinion. He looked at the case papers and the calls logs. He
confirmed that he felt there were indeed problems with the system and that I
was not to blame for the faults that had occurred. If I recall correctly when this
opinion was received, Weightmans solicitors, who represented the Post
Office, approached Jason Coyne stating they had evidence of direct
comparisons of calls between myself and Horizon that displays my office as
being broadly comparable. I don’t think this evidence was ever supplied. If I
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remember correctly I hadn't allowed POCL to remove any of the Horizon
equipment from my office, it was my evidence. It had been kept in a secure
location and was returned to POCL after the court case.
30.1 believe it was the report of Jason Coyne and actions of my solicitor that
resulted in me getting some compensation from POCL. The money did go to
paying of some more of my debts which I was lucky to be able to do.
Impact of losing the Cleveleys Post Office:
31. The Post Office business never reopened. I did try to keep bringing in some
money from my private side of the business but this just wasn’t feasible. The
consequence of losing the Post Office was devastating. My future just
disappeared; I went from having a promising career with my own business,
house, savings, car etc to living in a rented house on benefits. My parents
ended up back in debt due to them helping me out with my bank loan which
was taken out in November 1999 to be repaid over 10 years. Also 3 of my
staff made a claim to the employment tribunal for loss of wages. Unfortunately
due to my financial situation I couldn't pay them, to date they have not
pursued their claim.
32.My reputation was tarnished, a lot of people believing I stole money from the
Post Office and my building, the former Post Office was now worth half the
value it was 12 months earlier. I also had stock from the private side of the
business that I tried to sell, but not having the footfall coming through the
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doors anymore proved fruitless. It is my belief that if the Post Office and
Horizon had given me the help that I deserved I would not have experienced
these great losses, the considerable stress I encountered or the hardships my
family endured.
Statement of Truth
I believe the content of this statement to be true.
Dated: 30.06.23
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Index to First Witness Statement of Julie Kay (nee Wolstenholme)
No URN Document Description
1. _I WITN09020113 I 12/2001 letter drafted by my father
2. I FUJ00055145 I PINCL 2/11/00
3. FUJ00121257 Call 07/03/2000
4. I FUJ00121259 I Call 08/03/2000
5. FUJ00121278 Call 22/03/2000
6. FUJ00121308 Call 08/04/2000
7.__IFUJ00121396 _I Call 30/08/2000
8. I FUJ00121430 I Call 01/11/2000
9. I FUJ00121446 I Call 29/11/2000
10. I FUJ00121448 Call 29/11/2000
11. I FUJ00121456__I Call 27/12/2000
12. I FUJ00121470 I Call 30/05/2001
13. I FUJ00121471 Call 02/06/2001
14. I FUJ00121472 I Call 26/06/2001
15. I FUJ00121473 I Call 10/07/2001
16. I FUJ00121474 I Call 08/08/2001
17. I FUJ00121477 Call 05/09/2001
18. I WITN09020101 I 2000 Feb — July Horizon Call log
19. I WITN09020102 I 20000328 - Horizon Call log
20. I WITN09020103 I 20000908 — Horizon Call log
21. I WITN09020105 I 20001214 — call log analysis by Jan Holmes
22. I POL00095358 _I Cleveley's Office error log
23. I WITN09020114 I 01/2004 - letter drafted by my father
24. I WITN09020104 I 20001130 — Suspension letter
25. I WITN09020106_I Newspaper Clipping 1
26. I WITNO9020107_ I Newspaper Clipping 2
27. I WITN09020108 I Newspaper Clipping 3
28. I POL00095364 Letter from Tim Bentley to Tina Davis re: Thornton
Cleaveleys (sic) Sub Post Office - West Lancs
Gazette Newspaper Feature
29. I WITN09020112 I 01/2004 - letter drafted by my father
30. I WITN0O9020117_ I Jan Holmes witness statement 11 August 2004
31. I WITNO9020118 I Keith Baines 2" witness statement 11 August 2004
32. I WITNO9020119 I Elaine Cottam (Tagg) 2™ witness statement 11
August 2004.
33. I WITNO9020115 I Jason Coyne Expert opinion 21.01.04 and
associated documents
34. I WITN09020116 I 20042702 email from Jason Coyne to Susanne
Helliwell