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Witness Name: John Gerard
McKenny
Statement No.: WITN10440100
Dated: 27 December 2023
POST OFFICE HORIZON IT INQUIRY
FIRST WITNESS STATEMENT OF JOHN GERARD MCKENNY
I, John Gerard McKenny, will say as follows...
INTRODUCTION
1. lama former employee of Post Office Limited. I joined the business in June
1980 and began work as a Delivery Postman, delivering mail in the Omagh
County Tyrone locality where I was based. In May 1982, I applied fora
position as a Postal Officer to serve customers on the Post Office Counter. I
was successful and continued in that job for approximately eight years, again
in Omagh County Tyrone. In 1990, (not sure of the exact date) I joined the
Northern Ireland Internal Audit team, based again in Omagh but managed
from a Regional Office in Belfast.I worked within that Audit Team for
seventeen years conducting Accounts and Systems audits at Crown and
Sub Post Offices throughout Northern Irdand.
2. In 2007, (again not sure of the exact date) Post Office Limited set up a
closure programme team where 2500 Sub Post offices were identified for
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closure or restructuring. I joined that team as a Network Change Advisor and
we had to conduct surveys in the areas where the identified Post Offices
were. We then drew up plans to maintain a Post Office service in the areas
even though some were closing. We also had to visit the Offices and inform
the Subpostmasters (‘SPMs’) of the Post Office plans. That was my last job
with Post Office Limited and I left the business in January 2009.
In all my time with the business and in the various roles that I had, I was
never involved in any disciplinary matters or interviews in relation to criminal
offences or proceedings. I was required to attend court as a witness a small
number of times due to my findings at Audits. But as far as I remember the
Post Office Investigations Team dealt with all the disciplinary matters and
criminal proceedings.
BACKGROUND
4.
In all my time with the Northern Ireland Internal Audit Team as an Auditor,
all my work and instructions were given to me by my managers within the
Team. I conducted audits on my own and as part of a team of auditors
depending on the size of the branches. We would have been advised on a
Friday what the audit schedule was for the following week and we would
prepare accordingly. I do not recall any changes to that way of working.
I do not recall ever seeing any of the following documents which I have been
asked by the Inquiry: ‘Assurance Review — Recruitment (Vetting and
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6.
10.
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Training)’ [POL00032698}, ‘Network auditing approach, methods and
assurance (2013) [POL00086765], ‘Training and Audit Advisor’
[POL00088453] and ‘Audit Advisor [POL00088557].
In respect of the recruitment of auditors, as far as I remember they were
recruited internally and had worked on Branch Counters for a reasonable
period of time.
I never knew of any minimum level of qualification and/ or experience
required when becoming an auditor. In my case, I had worked on a Post
Office Branch Counter for eight years when I was approached by a Manager
to join the Audit Team. I had gained quite a bit of experience of what was
required when it came to Post Office Accounting.
As far as I remember, I “shadowed” experienced auditors for a period of
time prior to leading an audit myself. Any refresher training would have been
conducted during team meetings.
I think as auditors we had the necessary experience and tools to conduct
audits at various types of Post Office Branches.
I've been asked by the Inquiry to consider the document called ‘Audit Plan &
Scheduling, Chapter 1 of the Audit Process Manual’ [POL00084650]. I do
not recall ever seeing this document.
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11. I was never involved when it came to scheduling Post Office Audits.
12. I have no idea how promptly audits were completed after scheduling.
13. When I was preparing for an audit of a branch, I would have examined the
previous audit paperwork and any report that was completed.
14. I do not know how frequently branches were audited.
15. Again, I was not involved in any scheduling of audits of any kind.
16. I have been asked by the Inquiry to consider the following documents:
i. “Audit Charter” (version 4.0, undated) [POL00083966];
ii. “Performing a Branch Audit”, Chapter 3 of the Audit Process Manual
(version 5.1, May 2010) [POL00084801];
iii. “Core & Outreach Audit Process”, Chapter 3a of the Audit Process
Manual (version 1.0, 27 May 2011) [POL00085534];
iv. “Follow Up Audit Process”, Chapter 3b of the Audit Process Manual
(version 3.0, May 2015) [POL00087627];
v. “Performing a Cash Centre Audit”, Chapter 7 of the Audit Process
Manual (version 5.0, Aug 2016) [POL00088252];
vi. “Quality Assurance”, Chapter 11 of the Audit Process Manual
(version 5.0, Apr 2015) [POL00087672];
vii. “Post Incident Auditing without Horizon”, Chapter 14 of the Audit
Process Manual (version 1.0, Nov 2006) [POL00084003);
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viii. I “Condensed Guide for Audit Attendance” (version 2, Oct 2008)
[POL00084813]);
ix. “Requirement of Network Field Support Advisors at audit, following
discovery of discrepancy” (version 1.0, Oct 2011) [POL00085652];
x. “Network auditing approach, methods and assurance” (2013)
[POL00086765);
xi. “Training Guide: Compliance Audit Tool” (Sep 2015)
[POL00087688};
xii. “Training-Aide for Branch Asset Checking” (version 1.7, Nov 2014)
[POL00087716]:
xiii. “Terms of Reference Audits” (version 1, April 2015) [POL00087614].
I do not recall seeing any of the aforementioned documents during my time
as an auditor.
17. With regard to sources of information, the remittances of cash and stock in
and out of the branch for the week previous to the audit visit and the current
week were always verified with the Cash Centres. There was no variance,
that was completed at every audit.
18. Again, as far as I remember, when a discrepancy or shortfall was
discovered at an audit and when all necessary checks were completed, I
would have contacted my Line Manager, who in turn would have contacted
the Area Manager responsible for the Branch. I would then have awaited
further instructions.
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19.
20.
21.
22.
23.
24.
25.
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If my memory serves me right, we would have asked the SPM if they could
make good any discrepancy which wouldn't have been considered too large.
I cannot remember what the limits on discrepancies were prior to calling in
Management. However, I do not recall any practice as such for making good
discrepancies.
I was not aware of any instructions on taking payment.
If my memory serves me right, all enquiry avenues would have been
considered, including input from the SPM.
I think I always kept the SPM fully informed on how the audit was
progressing and made sure that they or a member of their staff were
present, especially when the value stock and cash were being audited.
I do not recall any processes in place that allowed the SPM to raise issues
or concerns during an audit.
I don’t think it would have been possible to conduct an audit at a branch if
the Horizon IT system was not accessible.
I do not recall any variation between audit processes in Crown Office
Branches and others.
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26. I have been asked by the Inquiry to consider FUJ00001894 and
POL00002841. I do not recall ever seeing either of these two documents.
27. I do not recall Fujitsu having any involvement in the audit process.
28. I do not remember having any access to information that wasn’t available to
a SPM.
29. I have never heard of an Audit Global User Account in my life. I do not know
what Audit Global User Accounts are.
30. I have been asked to consider POL00104821. I do not recall ever seeing
this document. My only recollection of investigators attending an audit would
have been when the audit was requested by their team, and they would
have attended and waited for the result of the audit checks.
31. My only involvement with the Security and Investigation Team would have
been when they requested an audit of a particular branch, and they
accompanied us at the audit.
Prosecution of Maureen McKelvey
32. I have considered the following documents provided to me by the Inquiry:
i. The call logs pp.19 - 24 [PNI00000001_ 071];
ii. The intervention logs p.6 & pp.15-18 [PNI00000001_ 071];
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iii.
vi.
vii.
viii.
xi.
xii.
xiii.
xiv.
XV.
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The audit report, sent to Ms McKelvey, dated 29 August 2001 pp.8-
11 [PNI00000001_ 071];
The letter from Denise Reid, contract manager, to Ms McKelvey
dated 1 November pp.12-13 and response from Ms McKelvey p.14
[PNI00000001_ 071];
The record of interview dated 4 April 2002, starting at 11:35 pp.50-
66 [PNI00000001_062);
The record of interview dated 4 April 2002, starting at 12:22 pp.67-
78 [PNI00000001_ 062);
The record of interview dated 27 May 2005, starting at 14:45 pp.79-
104 [PNI00000001_ 062);
The report of Suzanne Winter pp.3-12 [PNI00000001_ 082];
The letter from DS McAuley to the Legal Registrar confirming there
is sufficient evidence to proceed with the prosecution dated January
2004 p.1 [PNI00000001_082];
The statement of complaint p.3 [PNI00000001_ 062];
The witness statement of Una Kelly dated 26 September 2002 pp.6-
7 [PNI00000001_ 062]
The witness statement of John McKenny dated 25 September 2002
p.16 [PNI00000001_062]
The witness statement of Una Kelly dated 6 January 2004 p37
[PNI00000001_ 062]
The witness statement of Una Kelly dated 6 January 2004 p4.
[PNI00000001_050); and
The list of exhibits pp.43-48 [PNI00000001_62].
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33.
34.
35.
36.
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My recollection and involvement in the prosecution of Maureen McKelvey is
as follows-:
The Security and Investigation Team requested an audit of Maureen
McKelvey’s branch in April 2002. Back then, Pension and Allowances were
paid to Post Office customers via “Dockets” which were issued to them by
Social Security, Pensions Branch and other Government Departments. On
cashment of these Dockets, the Subpostmaster would have to input the
docket amounts into the Horizon System, pay the customer accordingly, and
then retain the paid dockets in their till. At the end of an accounting week
(usually a Wednesday), these Dockets would have to be “addlisted”, verified
with the Horizon System, and of course included in the office balance.
These addlisted Dockets would then be dispatched to Lisahally in County
Londonderry.
Lisahally was a centre where all paid Pension and Allowance Dockets from
throughout the United Kingdom were sent. At this centre staff undertook
periodical checks of the paid Dockets, and it seems that a check of Maureen
McKelvey’s Dockets revealed discrepancies, which in turn would have been
reported to the Security and Investigation Team.
As part of the Security and Investigation Team's work, they would have
requested the audit of Maureen McKelvey’s branch which was conducted on
4 April 2002. I was instructed to undertake the audit and I was accompanied
by Suzanne Winter of the Security and Investigation Team. On completion
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of the audit, I reported my findings to Suzanne Winter and that was my work
complete.
37. My only other involvement with the case was attending court as a witness,
because I had completed the audit. I do not remember what the outcome of
the case was.
Statement of Truth
I believe the content of this statement to be true.
~ GRO-
Dated: _ 1] \ wa IBoaS
I
Index to First Witness Statement of JOHN GERARD MCKENNY
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No. I URN Document Description Control Number
1 POL00032698 Assurance Review - Recruitment POL-0029633
(Vetting & Training) (version 1.0, 27
October 2009)
2 POL00086765 Network auditing approach, methods POL-0083823
and assurance (2013)
3 POL00088453 Training & Audit Advisor (undated) POL-0085511
4 POL00088557 Audit Advisor (undated) POL-0085615
5 POL00084650 Audit Plan & Scheduling, Chapter 1 of I POL-0081708
the Audit Process Manual (Version 8.0)
(2010)
6 POL00083966 Audit Charter (version 4.0, undated) POL-0081024
7 POL00084801 Performing a Branch Audit, Chapter 3 I POL-0081859
of the Audit Process Manual (version
5.1, May 2010)
8 POL00085534 Core & Outreach Audit Process”, POL-0082592
Chapter 3a of the Audit Process
Manual (version 1.0, 27 May 2011)
9 POL00087627 Follow Up Audit Process, Chapter 3b of} POL-0084685
the Audit Process Manual (version 3.0,
May 2015)
10 POL00088252 Performing a Cash Centre Audit, POL-0085310
Chapter 7 of the Audit Process Manual
(version 5.0, Aug 2016)
11 POL00087672 Quality Assurance, Chapter 11 of the POL-0084730
Audit Process Manual (version 5.0, Apr
2015)
12 POL00084003 Post Incident Auditing without Horizon, I POL-0081061
Chapter 14 of the Audit Process
Manual (version 1.0, Nov 2006)
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13
POL00084813
Condensed Guide for Audit Attendance
(version 2, Oct 2008)
POL-0081871
14
POLO0085652
Requirement of Network Field Support
Advisors at audit, following discovery of
discrepancy (version 1.0, Oct 2011)
POL-0082710
15
POL00087688
Training Guide: Compliance Audit Tool
(Sep 2015)
POL-0084746
16
POL00087716
Training-Aide for Branch Asset
Checking (version 1.7, Nov 2014)
POL-0084774
17
POL00087614
Terms of Reference Audits (version 1,
April 2015)
POL-0084672
18
FUJ00001894
Audit Trail Functional Specification
(version 8.0, 18 October 2004)
POINQOO08065F
19
POL00002841
Global User Account (September 2016)
VIS00003855
20
POL00104821
Condensed Guide for Audit Attendance
(version 2, October 2008)
POL-0080453
21
PNI00000001_071
Letter from J McCleery to PPS Belfast
chambers regarding further
documentation disclosure on R V
Maureen McKelvey
VIS00013112_071
22
PNI00000001_062
Notice of Intention to Request Court to
Conduct a Preliminary Inquiry. Plus
associated court papers: statement of
complaint, list of witnesses, exhibits,
ROTI
VIS00013112_062
23
PNI00000001_082
Letter from PSNI re R V - Maureen
McKelvey re alleged theft
VIS00013112_082
24
PNI00000001_050
R-v-Maureen McKelvey Additional
Statements bundle: Michael Scarlett,
Una Kelly, Sonia Cassidy
VIS00013112_050
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