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ROYAL MAIL — CONFIDENTIAL
Record of Tape Recorded Interview
Record of Tape
Recorded Interview
Person Interviewed
OW) JULIAN WILSON
Place of Interview
ASTWOOD LAW OFFICES
Exhibit No:
Number of pages
Signature of interviewing officer
producing exhibit
Date of Interview 159.08
Time commenced 1557 Time conduded 1633
Duration of interview 36 MINUTES Tape reference no 50314
Interviewing Officer(s) (GT) GARY THOMAS (GB) GRAHAM BRANDER
Other persons present (DE) DONNA EVANS ~ BRANCH SECRETARY OF (GO GRAHAM CLARKE - SOLICITOR
NATIONAL FEDERATION OF SUB POSTMASTERS FOR
WORCESTERSHIRE
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
Voice identification of everyone present.
Buzzer sounds - tapes switched off and back on.
Permission to tape record.
3W recautioned, legal rights explained anc told he is free to leave if he wishes.
250 The necessary form completed anid signed — Solicitor present,
Friend Form completed and signed — Offer of friend — Friend present.
450 “Tne contents of the previous interview recapped when JW states he now believes members of staff
may possibly have been dipping into the til although he had believed the loss of £27,000 over 5 years
could be put down to errors.
657 At what stage do you think you would have been in a position or you're going to getin a position to
repay the Post Office the money that was clearly missing?
7.44 Ww IJust wish I had as said previously hindsight’ a wonderful thing Ijust wish I'd made more of ftin the
early days with Paul and later with Keith and said you know this (inaudible)
B15 JW shown Branch Trading Statement dated 11'° April 2007 and 16" May 2007 and he confirmed it to
be his signature on page 3
829 Gr ‘And the amount shown as cash on hand on that occasion is £76,363.18p. Would that be é true
reflection the 26,363.18 of what cash would have been in the office at that time?
Iw ‘As previously said it would have been an inflated, inflated figure.
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Record of Tape Recorded Interview_Continued
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
GT ight ok with that figure being 26,000 then I would imagine that clearly back in last April you wouldn't
have been able to have been inflating it by 20, £25,000 or so because it wculd have suggested you
had no cash in the office.
w No cash in the safe.
oT So what sort of emount would you have been looking at Leing short at that time and what's your sort
of cash holdings on a general daily basis?
w Normally you hold about 14, that’s what 've been advised my cash holdings should be around 14,14
and half thousand.
Gt Right so mean even at that time if twas 14 then we would have looked at an inflated figure of
perhaps about just 12 at that time?
Ww Yeah
or Which would suggest that maybe from Aaril or May well actually 16” May 07 to September it's
creased quite considerably so 12,000 to 27 15,000.
aw 15,000
ot In about the last year or so?
Ww Yeah
or Which is obviously a lot more than we were suggesting I thought it was more of tne you know every
year it was around the sort of same amount 5,000? .
w No no no some it’s, it has increased slightly thet’s for sure! don’t know whether there's another one
we could just 100% at in-between those probably between those 2.
1024 ct Cash on hand cartied forward yeah total carried forward 47, the cash on hand 26, 28, 34, 29. 36.41,
34, 42, 46,41, 39, 40, 48, 41 so yeah certainly over the last 6,7 8 monthsit’s gone up a bitand that
may have reflection in that we've got 1,064 as you talked about on the first statement we looked at
£5.70 that one, 1,047 short on that one, 377, 565, 1200 short and that one is e particular large one
which It show you that one as well. Well that one is £2,306.99 short and the month before £1590.58
short so this one being a 4 week period we're looking new at 2.306 over a 4 week
? Have you mentioned the.
or Yes we'te just going to go through thatin a moment. Obviously we're looking at S, £600.00 a week an
our monthly trading period which Is from the period of the 9" January 2008 to 13" February 2008
ang the cash on hand there carried forward states 46,795.60 so again would that be a true reflection
of the cash that would have been in?
w Same answer as I gave.
ar Same answer it would have been an inflated figure?
JN Yeah.
oT Ok any recollection as to why youwould be £2,306.99 short in that particular trading period ‘cos
obviously it’s quite a bit higher than the other?
aw Yeah and its early part of the yeah isr'tit it's January, not that I can off the top of my head think of,
As said the thing is or other things you can check back through the system the system is very good
and they only need to check back but to me there that sounds as though there's one transaction oF 3
couple of tensections that have not been done perhaps correctly which has I mean that's abig Jump.
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Record of Tape Recorded Interview_Continued
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
G Right and that's again your signature?
w My signature,
Gt Ok but what you're telling us then is if we were to get the cash accounts of trading period ends and
obviously 2s you could see each period end whether it be a week or a month would give us a loss
figure if we were to go back to after the last audit and go the last 5 years forward.
w The majority of them yeah
cr ir we added them all up, if we added ther all up we should be getting around that 27,000 is that
comrect?
Jw Yean.
13.45 JW states he stopped making a written record of his discrepancies when they changed over to Branch
Trading Statements.
14.900 GB Any reason why you stopped record, cos whether you do a weekly account ar whether you do 2
month account what was the reasoning for stop recording the discrepancies?
ww ‘Again because { had a hard copy Ijust you know perhaps didn’t want to know how bad it was, itnever
seemed to be in my favour.
1430 JWstates he never explained to his Line Managers that he wasn't making good his losses and never
asked for any advice in respect of this.
14.44 GB ‘You were sort of saying that to sort of coin your phrase ‘burying your head in the sand’ 2 wee bit
hoping that somebody in the Post Office would identify the predicament you've got into and
hopefully do something to happen resolve the issue.
w Yeah
GB And we say they wouldn't is because every week you were showing a discrepancy whether it’s £300 or
whether it’s £1000 and then you're telling the system that you've made it good.
ow Yes I realise where I was going wrong there
GB (inaudible)
Jw Because there are 2 options on the screen there's the ‘settle certually’ screen and then there's the
‘make good cash’ and I wasn't aware that the ‘settle centrally’ button to push would highlight, would
highlight the problem that I'd had.
GB But you have to get authority to get it settled centrally anyway and they will you know refer to what
(GS15AROYAL MAL CONFIDENTIAL
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they call ike a hardship case it's like Gary was (inaudible) to you earlier, if you have a large
discrepancy and you think ‘ch I've made a mistake Im pretty sure it'sa gircbank error I'm going to be
{£4,000 short at the moment but when this error comes back I'l be good but I can't afford to make it
good at this moment in time’ or for whatever reason, sometimes, rm not saying ail times sometimes
‘a decisions mave where it will be settled through hardship ie. settled centrally and they would, you
would effectively pay back through deductions in your remuneration.
{wasn’t aware of that.
ven 05 0307
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Record of Tape Recorded Interview_Con' nued
Tape Person Text
counte" speaking
times
GB But you would need to get authority for that so settling it 2t the brarich making t atthe branch is how
you should be doing it but of course you should be actually putting the money in because you're
telling the system you've mace this good.
Iw Yeah
GB ‘And then that will effectively, Horizon will recalitvate the cash figure that you would need to balance
believing that you've actually put that money in whether you've done it as a cash or whether youve
done it by cheque
w I understand what you're saying that's my mistake
GB But also the Post Office to use the general term Post Office might have set some alarm bells ringing if
you'e actually showing the discrepancy that would have been relevant to the accounts.
w Yeah I understand where you're coming from.
GB So if you'd have shown it when it first started £500 next cne * you show it £1500 going forward going
forward going forward until say maybe 3 months ago you show £22,000 short then you show
£25000 shot then you show £27,000 short 'm pretty certain somebody in the Post Office would
have been alerted to thal fact long before now but because.
1 Because I was operating the system incorrect'y and I should have been putting it thee.
1725 GB Well you say that but to me you were hiding the actual true state of the accounts by inflating the
cash therefore somebody in the Post Office wouldn't have been alerted to it. Ifyou did want this =
person to be alerted whoever this person may be it was BOM, somebody at the helpline, somebody at
Chesterfield to be alerted (a) either mention it to somebody to one of your prone calls (b) contact the
helpdesk contact the BOM or deciare the true state of the accounts and trust me somebody would
have come out.
Iw Junderstand where.
GB To nave deait with therm.
w Yeah I understand what you're saying Graham yeah I understand what you're saying.
GB Oko have you inflated the cash figure so that it didn’t alert somebocy?
w No.
GB Right so what was the reasoning for just showing £1,000 short on the Trading Statement for period 4
‘as oppose to showing ir roughly £27,000.
w Because it you, in my thinking, whether this is incorrect or not, if you had doctores the figures which
altight yes Ihave done on this, if you doctored the figures so this bottom figure more or less ined up
the same asbeing so masiy 3 quid adrift or £4.00 adrift, in the event of an audit you would have been
that much more cash short.
Ga ‘cah but there's an £1,000 cn top of, instead of being, so basically the audit would have found
£26,000 discrepancy in the cash plus £1,000 further discrepancy which hadn't been made good.
Iw Yean
GB ‘So whether, so.
19.20 w But because I was still declaring that that was the discrepancy I wrongly assumed that somebody
from Post Office would pick up the phone that you's got a problem.
(cr) But because you're telling the system you're making it good the Post Office isn't concerned
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Record of Tape Recorded Interview_Continued
Tape Peison Text
unter speaking
times
w No, yes I wasn't aware of that.
oT ‘Andi in the following week if you have 2 £300 discrepancy there's nobocy going to be looking at all
this out of the 14,000 branches ust rne theyll be no-one leaking at somebody showing £1,000 shor:
if tneyte teling us this and they're making it good. What they willbe doing isifit suddenly becomes
1,000, 2,000, 5,000, 8,000, 10,000
aw understand where you're coming from.
GB Up to 27,000 we have the situation where somebody be alerted this branch appears to be ling
tosses and if we'e not alerted certainly the BDM would have been alerted and they’¢ have dene a visit
and if there looked to be anything untoward.
1 Yeah I understand what you're saying Graham, 'd thought the ottier not being aware that that's the
way you should have done it
2020 GB Ok if you had have declared this £27,000 do you think somebody would have been alerted tothe fect
there was a problem at your branch de you think that would have set alarrm bells ringing?
Ww I would hope so.
GB Ck and if it had, iespective of what's going on here today, irrespective of that if it had have set alarm
bells ringing somebody would have then phoned you up or soinebody would have come outane
Visited you and said Mr. Wilson you need to make this £27,000 don't you would they not have said
that to you?
Ww Mm.
GB 0k so by not declaring the £27,000 short which you should have done which was a true state of the
accounts you've effectively gained because you've then not had to find that £77,900.
Ww ‘Yeah I understand what you're saying. The bit I can't understand is how you can be one week you
know 6 grand and the next week you can he £8,000, £1,300 out that’s the bit, it's human error
GB it’s one of two reasons
Ww an only be human error,
cB Either a general errors been made or sornebody's taken that money and that's either youself or could
be a member of staff, Who actually works in the Post Office apart from yourself?
w just Jane.
21.50 SW states Jane Robinson has worked at the Post Office for 26 years working Monday to Thursday
mornings serving behind the counter. She is notinvolved in Trading Statements and cash
declarations. He always does the end of day work and weekly balance. JW confirmed he has had
time off in the schoo! holidays when Michael Cowling covers.
2357 Gr So when you were away and you were off how did Michael deal with the balance and the cash
account and the cash declarations and that. did you instruct him that there was mories missing that
had to be inflated to enter?
w sole him that we were short in the cash but how, I don't, I didn’t ever check his, because he used to do
@ Monday to a Friday I would never check and see what it was on the, what he declared casn wise on
the Wednesday
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Record of Tape Recorded Interview_Continued
Tape Person Text
counter speaking
times
25.10 oT So you've made him aware how dic you make Michael aware then?
Iw {just told him I just told him that there was short in the cash
GT ight ok sodid he ask you how am I going to account for that then or he gid’ ask thing?
w No
2620 3W admits that he has been dishonest to the Post Office for the last 5 years by producing such
statements.
2755 JW reiterates he has not taken any money for personal use.
28.10 JW confirmed there is a CTM shop attached to the Post Otfice, the net incotne of the same being
about £8,000 gross per month, the staff wages Deing about £ 1,000.00. His suppliers are W H Srmiths
of about £900.00 per week and Bookers between £800 - £1000 per week. He sald they do sella small
amount of stationery, He continued that his Post Office remuneration is aout £4,500 per month
30.33 SW states the Post Office shop is leased with a rent review due in November 2008, The currentrent
being £730.00 per month. He does not pay rates at the moment,
31.10 {Wstates his home address is subject to a mortgage of under £100,000 with GE Capital, the recent
value being £250,000. He coes not own any more properties. He has no other significant income.
32.40 SW states his utility bills willbe on the bank staternents and they spend about £100.00 per week on
food, He has 8 credit card with a balance of ‘four and a half’. He continued that the £60,600 loan is
additional to their mortgage.
35.35 JW states he has nothing further to add.
JW informed he may have rendered himself liable to prosecution and again cautioned.
Explanatory notice regarding the tapes given to ]W
Master tape seal signed on number 50314.
Interview terminated at 16.33.
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