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Record of Tape Recorded Interview
Record of Tape
Recorded Interview
Person Interviewed
Place of Interview
Date of interview
Time commenced
Duration of interview
Interviewing OFficer(s)
Other persons present
Exhibit No:
QW) JULIAN WILSON Number of pages:12
ASTWOOD LAW OITICES
Signature of interviewing officer
producieg exhibit
159.08
15,07 Time concluded 15.51
44 MINU! Tape reference no 50314
(GT) GARY THOMAS (GB) GRAHAM BRANDER
(DE) DONNA EVANS — BRANCH SECRETARY OF THE (GQ) GRAHAM CLARKE - SOLICITOR
FEDERATION OF SUB POSTMASTERS
Tape
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859
c
Ww
9.50
10.40
11.00 IW
Voice identification of everyone present and nature of enquiry explaine
Permission to tape record
Caution given and legal rights explained. JW told he is free to leave if he wishes.
Form GS001 completed and signed — Solicitor present
Form G5003 completed and signed ~ Offer of friend — Friend present.
(Ok Mr. Wilson as I said the reason we're here taday is to conduct an interview regarding the shortage
discovered at Astwood Bank Pest Office on the 11°” September 2008 when the shortage was
discovered by the Pest Office Auditors of a total of £2/,811.98p. The Auditors arrived at the office
around about 8 o'clock and apparently yourself arrived around 8.15 and they advise¢ you that they
were there to perform an Audit is that correct?
That's correct yeah.
‘Auditors Statement read out to JW and he confirmed his signature on the bottom of the same.
IW asked for his version of events
I took over the Post Office on the 6” Noveriber 2002. At that time Auditors were present and they
carried out the full checks and I signed to say that I had received the correct aiiguntof stock. I had an
audit some 6 months later and everything on that audit was fine, I had training for one week when I
first covered the Post Office, I didn’t have any more training after that sc not all of the transactions
that I carried out I was familiar with so f therefore had to ask a member of staff how to perform a
particular trensaction had it not come up during that first week of trading. When I balanced, I balance
every Wednesday as required by Post Office Limited, some weeks it was up some weeks it was down
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and i kept a record of all those transactions 2s to what was up: and down during you know my period
‘as Postmaster. I at one time had a Manager who's the Line Manager in those days I think they were
called, Paul Vantoosy and I raised the question of misbalances with him and I'd been keeping a record.
I seid could the systern be wrong or are we doing, he said “no tire system cannot be wrong there's
nothing wrong with the system", Pethaps 2 years ago we had a letter sent round from the Federation
as to whether anybody was experiencing misbalances, I said that I had ang I actually then wes asked
to submit to the Federation copies of Trading Reports, this relates to Trading Reports not the old, the
id system and I sent copies of those to the Federation.
GT That's the Branch Trading Statements?
ww Yes not, yes it's the trading statement not the previous.
cr Not the cash accounts?
IW Not the cash account the trading statement so I sent, I (inaudible) out anes where there were quite big
discrepancies and sent those off. I also then hac a BDM called, and his name was Keith Bridges, ! also
raised the fact that I was having these problems with balancing and I had noticed that when I declared
the cash each night, on a Saturday, Friday/Saturday when you declared the cash there was never, it
never balanced exactly but I noticed on a Menday, the discrepancy had increased so I asked the
question as to whether anything could happen on the system over the weekend if anybody had
access to the system ‘cos I couldn't urderstand where from one figure on one, suddenly jumped the
following day and he advised me that there was no way that could possibly happen. So to come back
tw what we were saying about the discrepancies over the period of time, the Horizon system as far as!
can see is avery good system in as much as it gets information to Head Office and it gets information
to Postmasters. Having seen that when these reports came out each week, that was the basis on
which you receive your remuneration so 4 weeks down stream it could identify how many
transactions you'd done for a particular Client whether it be Alliance and I eicester whether it be card
account or whatever it was and each week those figures showed a discrepancy on the bottom of the
balance figure when you rolled it into the next balance period or to the next tracing period. I wrongly,
week, he
head in the sand, presumed that eventually somebody would say hang on hie was out la
was out the weak before, he was cut the week before he must be doing something wrong or
something must be going on, iet’s get down there and find out what the problem is.
oT Right.
15.40 Jw And here in hindsight, hindsight’s a wonderful thing, I wish I'd raised it carlier, but ail I did was I just
kept rolling this forward so the figure got.
ol So the discrepancies on the trading statements thal you're talking about not the discrepancies in the
vansactions for the Client but the actual monetary discrepancy?
w Monetary yeah because I was saying, I was saying to Donna earlier on the Horizon systemiis very
good but I thought there were cervain transactions that you couldn't check jike at night you can check
your cheque deposit (inaudible) you cen check your Alliance as to pays in and pays out but when it
came to the sw/pe card or the business deposit there was no way of checking that because all you got
at the end of the week was a total number of transactions amounting to whatever thousand it was
and the same with the Post Office the pension card, the card account, you just did so many
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transactions and that related to a value, Now I wasn't aware until [spoke to Donna earlier that you
can actually check your Alliance and Leicester business deposits.
Gr Yeah,
Iw Now I wasn't aware of that on the system so whether that's down to me not having read the
appropriate you know brochures ont.
So do you not, is that different then to the actual Girobank transactions that you would summarise
and print off and check before they go away?
ww It is because what you have is a swipe card ok. You check the money against what they said itis and it
produces one receipt and that's the receipt that you give to the customer back with his card but you
don’t have a receipt the printer Goesn’t generate a receipt that you can keep, I wasn't aware that there
was a report somewhere else that you could actually check that whereas most transactions do
generate a receipt, there is a receipt that goes to the custorner and there isa receipt that you retain
GT So what you're suggesting then is is that if a customer's come in let’s just say for arguments sake with
a business deposit on a swipe card for £3,000,
w Yeah
oT Gr they've put down £3,000.
Ww Can I just give you an example?
Gt Yeah please do yeah. .
w Of something that happened last week.
GT Yeah
aw ‘Acustomer comes in every Monday who I've gat to know he's only been coming in about 5 or 6 weess
and pays in a reasonable ammount of money and custorners are always chatting to you and he paid in
£3,620.00, I don't know the name of his company because it’s not on his card I just know that he
comes in every Monday and talking as you do pethaps losing concentration you're keying in the
amount, well customer left, that evening when I'm checking the cash I'm 3,00 quid up and I
immediately knew there was only one customer it could have been during that day and sure enough
he came in the following day and hie said ‘it’s my fault I was talking to you when we were doing the
transaction, instead of putting in 3,620 you put in 36.20 and I said ‘I knew it must have been you" but
I'm just saying that’s one of the things that can happen.
GT Yeah and of course that customers come back because he’s out of packet?
Jw Absolutely.
19.40 JW admits if it was the other way round the customer would not have told him.
20.25 JW confirmed he does a cash declaration every day and checks the variance figure every day.
20.47 ot So you kepta running total or a running book did you then of how much your variance was turning
atall the time over the last 5 years?
w Yeah yeah I notated when we were doing the old cash report I notated every week what the
discrepancy was, when we moved over the trading period then t've got a hard capy of that so I know
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wirat it was,
or The previcus month?
w Yeah so I knew that when I was down let's say 20,000 the one week if I was 500 quid out the following
week, trading periad then it’s going to be 20,500.
GT Right ok and is that the same on @ Monday then because obviously you mentioned about your cash
being changed on a Monday do you do a cash declaration first thing in the morning on a Mondey or?
Ww No only at night
21.50 JW confirmed he always presumed an error had taken place during the course of Monday.
22.00 or Well obviously in respect of the Horizon system obviously it’s been in for quite a number of years
now, we've had shall we say instances or allegations by Postmasters who have claimed that the
systems not perhaps working correctly which may have triggered off your letters originally out from
the Federation, I think possibly speaking to Donna since that that some of those things that have
been generated by those questions from Postmasters weren't founded in the Horizon system in that
they'd been up to1no good.
ow So in understand yeah,
22.47 oT . You mentioned obviously about bringing up to the BDM's or the various people about the balancing
problem, misbaiancing problems.
aw Yeah
cr } chink it was 2 you mentioned.
ww Yeah
oT Did you explain to them at that time the levels of the shortages or the levels of what you were
misbalancing by?
IW No I didn't,
23.38 JW darified that he orily mentioned it on one occasion with each of the 2 balancing problems.
24.20 WILSON states the loss increased by about £300.00 to £400.00 per week rather than a specific
‘occasion where there was a substantial shortage. He said he has not paid any of his bills through the
Post Office and went on to say:
25.30 aw ‘The Pest Office money and s:ock and everything is the Post Office, if we'te goiny to pay bills the shop
till is the plece where the money for the bills comes, Post Office money is Post Office Money it’s
nothing ak ail tu du wilh he 1elail side of Lie shup su ne.
26.18 It was put to JW that having looked at his bank statements it appears there have been high overdrafts,
outstanding credit cards, and refinances, one recently fo* £40,000 to Royal Bank of Scotland and IW
explained:
2648 aw Yeah basically what happened there in discussions with my business Manager on the company
account which is the Post Office, sorry because it’s called Astwood Bank Post Office it's very difficult to,
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but 'm talking about the retail side, How that came about was that our business manager for the
Post Office was interested in taking over the RBS account at the time and they were offering us a
better deal than RBS were at that time and because we'd got an overdraft facility with the bank on the
retail side we thought it might and she suggested why don't we have some more and put some
‘money into the Post Office side of things and get rid of the overdraft facility which we did do yeah we
did that.
28,16 JW was informed that 6 statements for Lloyds I SB Bank were recovered but JW said there was no
significance that the ones missing were the ones showing the £40,000 going aut.
28.55 GT I mean obviously when the 60,600 went in on the 16” June of this year?
1 Yeah
GT Obviously Astwood Law who are here and representing you today seem to have obviously been.
involved with obviously clearing the Royat 8ank of Scotland 40,000,
w Yeah they did
cr That obviousty put your account from a 9,000 overdraft into 2 £10,000 credit at that time which was
obviously the difference from the 40 and 60, At the current time ! think in the file I think it shows thet,
there's somewhere in the region of about £6,000 crediL .
a] There was a tax bill that went out for £5,000,
30.14 GI From the Lioyds 1 SB account.
IW From the, was it from that account or was it from the business account, I thought it was from the, is
that the?
Gl That's the joint account is it?
w Yeah
31.43 GT So this particular account is what I'm more interested in ‘cos obviously when the £20,000 went in as it
‘were which is the 60,000 gaing in on this statement which I'll refer to for the tape which is sheet
number 205 this if the one where we've got the 60,600 and the 40,000 going back to pay the Bank of
Scotland,
Jw Yes.
GT ‘And we had £10,000 credit in the account at that time.
w Yeah
6c I'd like to intervene at that point for clarity. That £40,000 going out of the account Julian what was
that?
iw That was Lire RBS,
6c But didn’t that come out of mu
w Second one.
ica But didn't that come out my firm's account. { had no recollection with that going through the file, I
handled that transaction for you I don’t kaow it’s just.
w No as far as! was aware.
GC Ok that's fine.
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GT But it may well have been because the actual payment says it’s Astwood Law so maybe your firm
settled the account and then Mr. Wilson settled your firrn of 40,000 to replenish you.
Gc My recollection is that it didn’t happen thet way so I"m puzzi ied.
Ww 1 thought they BACS the moncy to you.
Gc Lloyes 1SB did?
IW Yeah
Gc I beg your pardon alright ok.
GT So Lloyds TSB have BACS you back for the money that you settled for the Royai Bank of Scotland
Gc Yealt that’s perfectly correct I beg your pardon.
GT That's fine so obviously all I'm saying though is whether that’s from Mr. Clarke's firm or direct from
yourself there's the 40,000 to repay that loan
IW Yeah
GT We've then gone from a 9,000 overdraft to at £ 10,403.20 credit.
JW Yes.
GT Ok when I go to current statement we've got on the 13" August £5,831.00.
iw Yes.
Gt So we've gone from a credit of 10,000 to 5 thousand 9 now so there's about 4, 4and a half thousand
pounds that’s gone'down in the last, well since June to August so it would suggest I mean, is there any
reason why the monies go down is it because of the financial position?
Jw No no it’s just way the business is at the moment. If you look at the payments going in,
GT There'll be the business payments.
1W They're business payments going in, they're far lower because everybody is feeling the pinch than
they were.
Gr Right so basically your money coming in from the business isn’t covering your expenditure in the last
2 months by 4,000 really is what we're saying?
Jw Itsit’s, over the last, yes, generally July and August are bad months in our type of business.
35.16 JWstates he now wishes he hac spoken to somebody before it had got to this stage. JW states he
isn’t aware of the feeway the BDM may give but he was informed this information was in his contract.
37.20 GT ‘Are you in a position to repay the Post Office 27,000 edd pounds?
Iw No.
GT So when you went into a credit back in June of the 10,000 after being ina 9,000 deficit.
Jw Y
GT Did you pay any money into the Post Office to repay any of the shortages that have been building up
‘over the last 5 years at that time?
Jw No I didn’t
GT Right have you ever paid any money back into the Post Office in respect of shortages?
Ww Yes.
GT Right so when would the last time have been that you'd have put money back in?
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Ww Would have been t would think after the 6 month audit following me taking over.
GT Right so after your appointment 6 month audit?
JW Yeah.
GT ‘And then after that time you would have started at that point then of not putting the money in or?
Ww Yeah because peoples had spoken to before I mean you know I mean the previous Sub postmaster
he used to have an account that he used to put money into and take te Money out and what have
you but I didn’t see the point of that and I didn’t see the point of stuffing itin an envelope which the
training said stickit in an envelope and stick in te safe, I didn’t see the point of that because it wasn’t
your money,
Gr Thats if your surplus?
Ww Yeah,
39.16 GT So whal we're basically saying then is is that from 6 month after appointment following your last
audit if you like alt loses and gains and that time for each Branch Trading Statement, Cash Account if
itwas prior to Branch Trading would have been rolied over to each sudsequent week or 4 week
aw Yeah I would take into account whatever if it was a surplus or whether it was a minus (inaudible).
40,00 JW states he is in a position to pay some of the money back to the Post Office.
4112 IW confirmed his signature on Trading Statement from 16" July 08 to 20" August 08.
aa Gt On page 1 there is obviousiy a cash on hand amount there which says £46,567.57p. Would that be a
true reflection of what the physical cash would have been in the office at that time on the 20" August
08?
Ww No.
Gr Ok anid on that particular Trading Statemnent you're showing a shortage of £1,064.42p.
Jw Yes
or So that would have been your loss during that period?
mW During that period from the 16" July through the 20".
tery Can I just ask there if i’s nota true reflection of how much cash was on hand at the branch, why was it
not?
JW Because of what I'd said previously.
GB Right so just to clarify then so when you actually do your belance the official balance at the end of
the month then this figure here of 46 odd thousand pounds am I right in thinking that would include
nd ins the Post OF
Ww Yes.
GB Plus what Ill term as an inflated figure?
Ww ‘Yes.
GB OK and did you keep a record of how much to inflate it by month on month?
w Yes I dic.
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43.00 3W states he kept this figure in his head elthough prior to the new system he made a week'y note of
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Master tape seal signed on number 50313.
Interview terminated at 15.51