Summary of Tape
Recorded Interview
Person Suzanne Elizabeth McKnight (SM) Exhibit No:
Interviewed Number of pages:
Place of Room at Appley Bridge Post Office Branch Signature of interviewing
Interview officer producing exhibit
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Date of Interview 15" October 2008
Time 11:25am Time concluded 12:01pm
commenced
Duration of 36 minutes Tape reference 071372
Interview no
Interviewing Stephen Bradshaw (SB)
Officer(s) Paul Whitaker (PW)
Other persons Winifred Maureen Whalley (WW) -
present Friend
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0.00 Interview with SM resumed
SB makes general introductions
Reminded still under caution
SM confirmed that she was ok to continue without a Solicitor
SM confirmed that she wishes Mrs Whalley to remain as her
friend.
Form GS001 completed and signed.
1.45 SB explained that we were going through the audit report, SM had
8015
no explanation for the large discrepancy in the ATM. SB said that
the explanation for the Lottery discrepancy by SM, was that she
had mis-read a transaction correction and that a number of people
working on the shop side may have activated scratch cards and
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not told SM. SM agreed that this was correct:
2.45 SB then said that on the audit report £13,575.25 was identified as
cheques being on hand, that were not in the branch. SB asked SM
for an explanation concerning the cheque figures.
3.30 SM explained that some of the cheques were down to a time that
she was not present, when other members of staff who no longer
work at the branch, had made a mess of remming out the
cheques. They had made such a mess of it that SM did not know
how to sort it. SM said that they were asked to provide evidence of
a particular transaction, which they did, but by the time they found
the evidence, they had to accept the transaction correction for the
cheques. They were waiting for this then to be credited.
4.15 SM was asked when this was and replied it quite a while a go and
has been on the system all this time. SM said that they kept asking
the Post Office about it and sending letters to them asking can it
be sorted and they provided the evidence and nothing has been
done.
SM was asked if they she had the evidence and replied that she
could probably find it.
6.15 A discussion took place regarding this cheque error.
7.30 SB Have you ever inflated the cheques to cover shortages either in
the lottery, the ATM or even day-to-day shortages that may have
occurred?
SM In the respect of have I swapped it round on the system, no the
only thing I have done and this is where the other things come
through, which you could sort of say that it is the same, is that
when the error, you know like when you have got an error
correction come through and if its been for an amount that we
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can’t physically put in straight away, rather than have the cash
declaration as at a loss, I have accepted it as make good you
know, cheque or what ever and that what has inflated that, but it
has not been an intention thing where I have physically not been
meaning to put the money back or I have not, its just be a mis-
judgement of error on my part. I have in no shape or form tried to
cover anything up cos I obviously know when the auditors come in,
you can’t do things like that its not that sort of system where you
can intentionally, you know cover things up. Its just be very stupid
and naive of me to
8.50 SB explained to SM that she had accepted transaction corrections
and settled to cheque and the cheque has not been despatched.
SB asked SM if she had ever informed her mother, who is the sub
postmaster that she required money to cover the transaction
corrections?
9.00 SM Honestly, no
SB asked if there was any reason why she had not told her
mother. SM replied that she did not want to worry her about things.
SM (Upset) then explained that she had tried to take things on and
deal with it in her own way, which was very stupid of her and this is
why it has happened and that she had kept things to herself and
tried to deal with them and obviously her way was not the way they
should have been dealt with
10.30 SM explained that it was her mis error and her mis judgement of
things that has caused what has happened.
10.50 SM then explained that with the cheques, if a member of staff has
not told you something and you can’t deal with the situation there
and then, by ringing up and getting help, you are getting
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transaction corrections coming through because you are not told
everything, you are trusting people to much, SM said that she was
on the premises, but did not always work on the counter side, she
would be working in the shop and would help out on the counter if
she was needed. SM said that she has not always been told the
truth by the staff. She then said that she has panicked when
seeing some of the transaction corrections.
11.50 SM said that she had accepted the transaction corrections
because she thought that she had to accept them, it was not a
case of getting help and if it was our error we have to deal with it.
SM Obviously I haven't dealing with it, I’ve been , I won’t say brushing
it under the carpet, because I have not, I have always known that
this money got to be put back, its not a case of where I have
taken, physically taken the cash out and put it in my back pocket,
which I have not done, I am not that sort of person, I’m the sort of
person who would taken anything that is not mine.
12.15 PW What about your staff members, do you think they have been
taking money
SM said that they had problems with one particular member of
staff who they had put trust in and SM’s mother had contacted the
Post Office and asked for help as they had problems and the
balancing was up and down, SM said that this particular member
of staff left.
13.00 SM said that the Post Office ran better after this person left but
then said that it was approximately 18 months to two years ago.
SM said that it was frustrating as the errors where coming through
after this member of staff had left and the errors were for the time
she was employed.
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13.30 SM said that they have never been auditor apart from the audit on
20 August 2008. They had, had no support or help, they have not
had any manager. SM said that they run the customer side very
well but the financial side, the accounting side that SM said that
she has not been fully trained on and she thought that she could
deal with it in her own way.
14.30 A discussion took place concerning the member of staff. PW said
to SM that she did not want to worry her mother and some of the
transaction corrections coming through possibly as a result of this
member of staff, SM had not been dealing with them as she
should have been and as such, shortages in the accounts that SM
had settled to cheques as she did not have the money to put in?
15.00 SM Yes, I want to make it clear that it was never my intention never to
put it back in, I’m not stupid I know that if an auditor comes along,
PW You knew eventually it would catch up you
SM it would, which it has done, which in a way is a good thing because
it has got to the point where
PW Its drawn a line under it
SM Well it has, its put it down to that's it, its there, if it had carried on in
the way that I have been running things and the way that I have
been doing things maybe you know, it could have sorted have
sorted itself out, but I was you know, I was putting money back in,
but at a rate that we could afford in that respect because we have
got staff and the outgoings of what have you. But, I think, a lot, the
ATM that I haven’t got a clue, I just, with the ATM, that bulk
amount of money, it has got to be in the system somewhere
because it is a separate account, it’s a separate cash thing
everything is separate from it, it has never been, it has never been
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swapped over and changed around so that money is somewhere
16.00 PW You are confident that it will be rectified, the discrepancy is an
anomaly
SM I’m confident, yes, its got to be
PW The lottery is a similar sort of situation, as I see it, specifically if
you look at the cheques, you have given an explanation with
regard to what you have just said, one thing I would be interested
to know because the cheque figure is about £13,000, looking at
that, now you gave two explanations, one, the cheque error arising
from these staff that you had a while ago and you have also
admitted that you have put some of your shortages to cheque, but
you have never mentioned any actual figures, so how much do
you think of that 13,000 is down to the error that has not been
rectified correctly and how much is down to you
SM Personally
PW covering your shortages, of the 13,000? Is it 10 grand one three
grand the other or, what do you reckon it is?
17.00 SM No, its more about two thousand and something is the error that is
not ours and the rest is, but to be honest with you I didn’t think it
was that much either, but obviously it must be in that respect
PW Unless there are any other transaction corrections are in the
system
SM but, with like regard to things like that it’s the cheques I didn’t think
it was as much as it was to be fair
PW Did it become quite easy to finish your shortages, when it said
make good, you just think, I’ll make good to cheque and it will go
away sort of thing
17.30 SM In some I did it to cash, it wasn’t like in my mind, its nothing sort of
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thing, I knew damm well that, that money we would have to put
back, but obviously the amount they were coming through and the
rate they were coming through, it was all like too much. Like I said
my mum did contact the Post Office when I told her about certain
things that were coming through, cos they were huge amounts, I
mean they were, we had one for like £3,000 I think it was and I
said to mum I don’t even know and that was for currency of all
things, currency we only sell euro’s, so how the hell are we £3,500
down in euros, I didn’t know, so what I said was that I am settling
that centrally, I said because, you know someone said, I didn’t
even know what settle centrally was to be fair, I just thought that
just doesn’t accept it into the system, being naive, when then we
got the letter back from them saying that we need this money and
we set it up were we paid them so much a month, which was fine,
then it sort of cottoned on why haven't we been doing that in the
first place. Which that way then, might, my lottery stock unit
everything is straight because when you accept it centrally it goes
to them and then they contact you don’t they for the money, which
I never knew, I never knew that, I just thought
19.10 PW asked SM’s mother had contacted the normal helpline, but SM
did not know, she said that she was on the phone to the Post
Office and that her mother had said that they needed somebody to
come round to look at things and re-iterated that nobody came
SM was asked if she had even contacted the helpline to enquire
after certain transactions. SM replied that she didn’t think that you
could do that, she though it was just for customer related
incidents.
The helpline desk was explained to SM. SM was not sure if her
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mum had contacted the helpdesk or if she had contacted their
manager.
21.30 SM confirmed that the difference in time for the cheque transaction
that she said they had to accept before finding the evidence was a
week. She further explained that she was trying to work out what
had happened before sending anything off. SM then explained
what had happened.
23.30 SM was shown a summary of the Transaction Corrections for
period 4 (JR2). SM confirmed that it was her signature with the
note explaining that she had covered the corrections to cheque
without physically putting In a cheque.
24.00 SM was asked if when they received the transactions corrections
she just accepted them, she confirmed that this was the case.
SM was then shown a number of trading statements (SB/3 to
SB/7), SM was asked if the amount on the line for other methods
of payment brought forward, if this was the cheque figure that she
had been carrying forward?
24.45 SM Yes it must have been, but to be honest with you I don’t
understand these either. This is another thing, I can read them but
I can’t if you know what I mean, I don’t all I see is figures.
SM was asked what OMP brought forward meant to her?
SM Nothing to fair, I’m not, I don’t want to say that it does, cos I don’t
understand what it means.
25.30 It was explained that this is the cheque figure. The figures were
read out for each period. It was said that this figure had been
rolling for a while and did she had given an explanation.
26.20 It was said to SM that she had falsified her accounts by putting in
figures that were not correct and if she knew it was wrong to do
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this?
SM No
SB So you didn’t know it was wrong to do this?
SM No (getting upset — crying)
SM was then shown two summaries of transaction corrections
(SB/8 and SB/9), one was for all corrections and the other for the
Bank of Ireland ATM machine. The summaries were explained.
SM was asked if these were the normal amount of transaction
corrections they had been receiving over the last 18 months. SM
replied that it was sometimes less.
28.15 When asked if she knew the amount of transaction corrections
received over the last 18 months, replied that she wouldn’t know to
be honest. She couldn’t think.
28.45 PW said that there were approximately 20 / 25 transaction
corrections and asked again if they received a large amount. SM
replied that you could have a month when you didn’t get any and
then get twenty at once.
29.20 PW explained to SM that she had said that she had never stolen
any money, but had made entries onto the Horizon system, that
were not correct, SM was asked to explain if she thought that she
was competent in working in the Post Office and in particular the
management side as SM had said that she was happy serving the
customers. She was asked if she felt she was doing the
management and accounting side correctly.
30.15 SM replied that she did not like saying it, but it was a struggle. It
had taken its toil on her. SM was asked if she thought that all the
accounts she had put in were right?
SM It was a true account of the cash, you know when I did the balance
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and things like that, everything was put in true to what we had and
how it was with regard to the exception of the cheques, but
otherwise it was a true account of what we had, you know I didn’t
try and of sort of mask anything or anything like that because you
now I might be incompetent but I am not stupid, I know damm well
you can't, the only way, if you were to go out there and take
money that wasn’t yours then it would be very stupid to stay
around.
31.30 PW asked if SM was confident that the cash was correct and SM
replied “yes”. PW then said that by her own admission SM did not
understand the branch trading statement, if SM had received
transaction corrections asking her to look back over the trading
statements then she wouldn’t know where to start, SM agreed with
this. PW asked if when she did things hoping that it would be
sorted out later on down the line?
32.00 SM It was a hope yes, but it was because I could pinpoint, this is what
I said to my mum when I was ??? about it, I personally don’t feel
that I was competent enough to manage the office in the sense of
all this, to manage the day-to-day running is different that to do all
the other side of things, I didn’t realise this, there was the extra
stuff that went with it, you know I was managing alright, but then
obviously things when things happen, I didn’t know how to deal
with things and rectify things
PW said to SM that he would disagree that SM was managing Ok,
as she had a history of transaction corrections, in effect SM was
not managing correctly due to the amount of transaction
corrections coming through and other branches when they receive
the corrections are dealing with them correctly.
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The interview was summarised.
35.15 When asked if SM wanted to say anything else replied, that she
did not know that she was committing a criminal offence in doing
what she did, she was never intentionally taking the money, it was
error corrections that were coming through and she was just stupid
and naive to think that I could sort it out over a period of time
which she couldn't, it was just a mis error of judgement from
herself.
SM said that any repayment would have to be discussed with her
mother.
36.30 All parties signed Master Tape seal 071372.
Form GS019 (Explanation of what will happen to the tapes)
handed over
Tape switched off at 12.01pm.
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