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Record of Tape
Recorded Interview
Person Interviewed MRCARL ADRIAN PAGE (CP) Exhibit No:
Number of pages:
a Place of Interview Hand Morgan & Owen
17 Martin Street
Stafford Signature of interviewing
° ST16 officer producing exhibit
Date of Interview 23" April 2003
Time commenced 47:18 hours Time concluded 18:00 hours
Duration of interview 46 minutes Tape referenceno 058039
Interviewing Officer(s) I Manish Patel (MP) Colin Price (Colin)
Other persons present Mr Patrick Farrington (PF)
Tape Person Text
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00:10 MP Okay, I'm resuming the interview the time is now 17:18 hours, all the
same people are present and we're at the same location which is the
offices of Hand Morgan & Owen, 17 Martin Street, Stafford ST16, my
name is Manish Patel and my colleague
Colin Colin Price
MP Can I please introduce yourself Carl
cP My name's Carl Adrian Page
MP And, Mr Farrington
PF Patrick Farrington
00:34 MP Carl I remind you that you remain under Caution and that is you do not
have to say anything but it may harm your defence if you do not mention
when questioned something which you later rely on in Court, anything
you do say maybe given in evidence. Do you understand that
cP Yeah I do
MP Are you happy with my previous lengthier explanation on the first tape or
would you like me to go through it
cp No that's okay no problem at all
MP Okay and again same rights as before again I remind you that this is a
voluntary interview. You're not under arrest, you don’t have to remain at
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this interview and if you do remain you have the right to legal
representation,
cP okay
MP obviously Mr Farrington is overseeing that and you're entitled to read the
Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 codes of practice yeah
cP Yeah okay
MP Erm and I remind you, well this solicitor part doesn't really, isn’t relevant
but again can I just ask you to date time on the top
cP 17...
MP 17:19 now please
cP You want me to sign again
MP Yes please
cP 17:19 and I wish to speak to a solicitor, sign that again
MP Yeah please
cP 17:19, 23" of the fourth and if I want to speak to a solicitor I have
already been ?
MP Okay and again once again Post Office friend would you like present
cP No I'm alright thank you
MP again if you s change your mind about that
cP Just notify you
MP Please let me know, fine I won't o through too many of these examples
but there is just a couple , couple more that I want to go through, the
next being Thursday 28" of October, right Thursday 28” of October, this
is the till roll receipt, under copy sorry
cP Okay
MP 7” of 07:38
cP Yep and 24"
MP 24" of October, transferred in 120,000 euros
cp Yeah
MP At 1.6725
cP Yeah
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MP Sterling value of £71,748
cP 38
MP 88 yeah
cP Yep
MP Okay, that's 07:38
cP Um hah
MP On the 24”
cP Yep
MP Transaction at 07:40
cP Yeah
MP So two minutes later on the 24”
cP Yeah
MP You sell 120,000 euros
cP Um hah
MP At 1.6725
cP Um hah
MP And it comes to a sterling value of £71,748.88
cP . So you saying I haven’t made nothing for the Post Office that week
MP Indeed
cP Okay
03:00 MP Yeah, why would you do that Carl
cP I! don’t know, I would have thought I might have had some more in
MP You might have had some more in
cP Yeah
MP Yeah but how does that, how does that work out because the Post
Office give them to you, well not give them to you
cP There might have had some earlier in the week 120,000 at a better rate
MP But how does that reflect on what you've, effectively just shipped them
straight out to him haven't you
cP If you, if you're going from that rate and that rate being the same
transaction as him buying and selling I might have had 120,000 already
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in cause you can see from the records I've always kept a lot of euros in
stock
MP Um hah
cP Yeah okay and er I might have sold them, sold the previous 120,000
MP But that shouldn't come into the equation should it Carl, why should that
cP Well it's still trying to, I’m still trying to make the Post Office, if you
: buying at 1.68 I'd sell, I'd sell at 1,6
MP But presumably that 120,000 euros which you booked in at 07:38
cP Yeah
MP Were for Mr.
cP It may have been, it may not have been
MP Well who else was it for then
cP Well I might have had 120,000 previously in stock for Mr:
come pick up
MP Yeah, but you, yeah so
cP Well I might have bought them at a better rate 1.68 or something
MP Right
cP And so the one’s I sold M jat 1.6725 may have correspond
to the ones I had earlier
MP And if there wasn't a transaction previously
cP .I If there wasn’t I made a mistake with that haven't I
MP Made a mistake
cP Yes
MP How do you mean you've made a mistake
cP Well he shouldn't have 1.6725, I would have probably sold them 1.67 or
maybe 1.669 or something
MP Right, did he ask you to sell them to him for 1.6725
cP No, no
MP Who decides on the rates then
cP You asked me that question before and I put them, I put them in my own
head to decide the rate
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MP Right 7
cP Cause, cause, I mean wrongly or rightly all I've ever tried to do is not
make anything for myself, is to make money for the Post Office
MP Right ‘
cP You're showing me there
MP But, but this looks, but this looks as though you've made nothing
cP Nothing for the Post Office yes
05:03 MP There whatsoever doesn't it
cP Yes it does
MP And that begs the question and you've already answered it, why would
any Subpostmaster do that, it fails to
cp But I'm never, are you telling me I’ve done that all the while
MP You've done it on a number of occasions and I’m only picking out a
selection
cP Right
MP And even the one’s where you call it made something work out at you
know £40 or £120
cP Yeah
MP And you know, you'll be staggered by how much you made us on the
13" when we get to it, I'm staggered by how much you made us on the
13”
PF Well if there is a question you want to put would you go to that
transaction please
MP Let's look at Friday the 20” of December .........+sssssesseee there we are
Friday the 20" of December 08:46, 20” of December at the bottom there
cP Yeah okay
MP You got a transfer in 150,000 euros
cP Um hah
MP At 1.65, giving £90,909.09
cP Okay
MP Yeah, 08:48 two minutes later yeah
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cP Um hah
MP Sorry yeah that's that top part there you can see is the exact copy of that
cP Um hah okay
MP Yeah, so immediately after transferring them in
cP Yeah
MP Right two minutes later you do a transaction for 144,000 euros
cp Um hah
MP. At 1.65 and erm, pays you, sorry what's that, £87,272.73
cP Okay
MP Yeah exactly the same rate as you transferred in and sold to so without
me having to tell you, right you made nothing yeah because if we work
out what 144,000 when transferred in at that amount
cP Yeah
MP It comes to exactly what you sold it at, so you made nil on there, you
gave him the euros, away basically why
cP { didn’t give anything away, I try I try to
MP But you have on there
cP According to that I have yes
MP Yeah so why
cP Maybe, I don’t know
MP You don't know, but you're trying to make us a profit you said
cP Yeah but you, you ta, yes I am trying to make you a profit
MP But you effectively taken them from next door, the Post Office next door
when they come in on the REMs
cP Yeah
MP You put them in his holdall and he’s walked out and you haven't made a
bean, nothing
cP Well according to that I haven't no
MP And he’s gone down the road cashed them in an made a fortune
cP Well I didn’t know that did I
MP No but I’m just saying
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cp But you're telling me that the Post Office only buy them in at 1.65
MP That's what Hemel Book them out to you at
cP l asked you the question earlier you said that’s what the Post Office buy
them in at 1.65
08:13 MP Yes they do from First Rate and Hemel book them out to you using the
tates which are published, Hemel have to comply with the published
tates as well
cP okay
MP They get one of those faxes daily as well
cp So why’s, why’s nobody ........ why's nobody questioned it then
MP Well because nobody knows that you're selling them for nothing
cP But when end of the week I do a Command 10, you know how many
transactions I’ve done
MP Um
cP You've know how many euros I’ve sold
MP Um
cP And I thought you get the differential balance rate at the end of the week
that’s the profit that the Post Office made, apart from what we've buying
and selling at there as well
MP No it doesn’t work that way, see your revaluation figures which is what
you're referring to isn’t it, yeah, your revaluation figures should have
been, should have been very high compared to what they were and
granted maybe those should have been picked up by the Business
earlier but they weren't
cP Well that's not down to me is it, I mean
MP Well
PF Well that's
cP If, if, if if asked the question if somebody had picked them up earlier and
1 had been told about it, none of this would have happened would it
MP But you see the ting is, sorry
PF I was going to suggest that we ask Mr Page this question, had he
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discussed this with anybody and before and if so who and what had
been said about it
09:30 cP Well I asked Mr Steve Geraty
MP : Um, I know but you've seen the statement from Steve Geraty haven't
you cause that’s a bundle which was sent to you and he doesn't recall
any conversations, he can't remember he says
PF Well Mr Pages response to that I think is that he’s had a conversation
with Mr Geraty about this
MP Um, see Mr Geraty has no authority as does nobody else in the Post
Office have any authority to allow such discretion
cP But I wouldn't know that as a Subpostmaster would I
Colin He would know that as a Retail Network Manager though
cP But, I can’t answer for the Retails Network Line Manager can I, I've
come from the Post Office outside 5 years ago, I've never been in the
Post Office before
\ MP Okay lets have a quick look and this will be the last one as I've
I mentioned the 13”
, PF What's the purpose of keep putting these transactions to him, you're not
actually asking him any questions other than the same thing and and
with respect
MP Well to be
PF You're not actually achieving anything different
10:30 MP. Well to be fair to your client, I think he has a right if he wants to to see
any evidence that we have which may form any part of the case which
i results in a prosecution, erm I would be loathe to get to a Court case and
be told well you didn’t show him the evidence
PF Alright put the next transaction to him then
MP Well if you don't want to see them Carl
cP No no show me the transactions, show me the transaction
MP Okay, the 13", I did mention the 13” so I'll put it to you. The 13" starts
of with transfers going in from the 8" of Januray
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cP Yeah
MP All the way through to the day of the 43”
cP Yeah okay
MP 8" of January 10:25, 150,000 euros transferred in at 1.6277
cP Okay um hah
MP Sterling value is £92,154.57 okay
cP Okay
MP And there’s no transactions between the 8" and the 13” until the 13”
cP Okay fair enough, 150,000 on the g°
MP Sorry 10:47 on the 9", 150,000 again transferred in 1.6273, £92,177.23
cP Okay
MP Yeah
cP And 1.628 on the 10”
MP Yeah on the 10” 14:46 again 150,000 at 1.6218, £92,489.83
cP Okay
MP The reason I have to say it in full Carl is because obviously
cP The tape yes that's fair enough
MP It's recorded on tape, I'm not trying to bore you and then on the 11" of
January 11:39 again another 150,000 euros
cP Um hah
MP At 1.618
cP Okay
MP £92,707.05
cP Yep okay
MP Okay and then we come onto the transaction itself right but just before
we discuss that, so that’s 600,000, 600,000 euros you've tansferrde in
on those 4 days
cP Um hah
MP Okay
cP Yeah
MP You sell
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cP At 1.62, 484,000 at 1.62
MP You sell 484,000
cp No 584,000
MP Sorry 584,000 on the 13”
cP Yeah
MP So at 1,62 and; ypays you via those four cheques we've
talked about
cP Yeah okay
MP £360,493.83
cP Yep
MP Now, going from the four transfers
cP Yeah okay
MP You had in okay, we have to, excuse me, We........ using the different
rates we've got there
cP Um hah
MP Taking the first one
cP Yeah
MP The very first one on the 8", if we say 134,000
cP Um hah
MP Was transferred in at 1.6277, the sterling value would be £82,324.75
cP Yeah
MP The other three remain as they are because the other 3 remaining come
up to 450,000
cP Okay
MP And that makes it 584,000 yeah follow that
cP Yeah
MP If you do that the sterling value would come to £359,698.86
cP Yep
MP And you sold them for that value we've already talked about which gives
us a difference of £794.97
cP Um hah
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MP Now that's, that’s over half a million euros Carl for which you supposedly
made us, which isn’t as I’ve said, supposedly made us nearly £800, now
had you sold 11,800 euros at the
cP Yeah
MP At the normal rate you would have made us £800
cP Okay
MP Do you think it's right, Business commercially right for someone to say
by selling half a million euros I made you the same profit as selling
12,000 euros
cP But as I said before, the amount of transactions were coming through, !
thought I was making the Post Office some money
MP But you're a Businessman Carl
cP A Businessman yeah
MP Yeah
cP l own a Post Office and you get paid per transaction
MP Yeah, I mean not everyone can walk in of the street and run a Post
Office or Business
cP No I know that
MP I'm not a Businessman, but even I can see that that doesn’t equate,
having to sell 11 million, sorry a half a million euros to make £800 when I
could have sold 1200 (meant to say 12,000) euros to make the same
value
cP Yeah but I could have still sold 1200 and made that amount, but if a
gentleman hadn't come in through the door I wouldn't have made
anything at all would I
MP No but then you know was it not feasible to sell 12,000 euros
cP Well I do do I do that to Joe public anyway don't I
MP Well that’s what I mean so if you’re making that profit anyway, do you
jand do you need to be giving him preferential rates
to keep his custom
cP Because the man, to to keep his custom I’ve, I though I was making the
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Post Office some money cause the large amount of transactions, you
know yourself if you come o the street and you want to buy 10 Volvos
you'd get a better deal than buying 1 Volvo over 3 years, if you're going
to buy 10 Volvos a month
MP Right okay. Lets erm, lets move onto a I slightly different subject then.
Lets
cP But I did cover that before didn’t I on the 14”
MP Sorry .
cP What you've just asked me there, I did cover on the 44"
MP Well unfortunately I wasn't armed with any facts or figures and I am now
so that's why I’ve covered it again
cP Okay, that's fair enough alright
16:17 MP Okay, right we briefly touched on this at the last interview so I won't flog
it to death but I need to ask you again, I think at the last interview we
talked very briefly about buy backs, euros being bought back 7
cP Yeah
MP At the Post Office
cP Yeah . :
MP Can you remind me is there a large need for buy backs at the office
cP No
MP There isn't
cP , No, so why you gonna ask me why I don't give preferential rates to buy
back
MP No I wasn't going to ask you that, I asked you that last time
cP -Yeah
MP But, no I wasn't going to ask you that, erm what would you say you know
roughly is the buy back on a weekly basis, of euros
cP ‘ seseseceeseeseeeeeeel COUAN'E tell you
MP Not even a rough idea, would it be substantial or not
cP No I wouldn't have thought so maybe
MP 10,000, 10,000 more
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cP Maybe 10,000
MP . Aweek
cP No I wouldn't have thought that much
MP Amonth
cP Maybe
MP Right
cP Until I've got the figures in front of me, I couldn't tell you
MP And who invariably because we had this conversation, I remember it
because you were quoting me something you read 2 years ago erm
about people who buy euros from your office
I cP [heard it on Radio 5 yeah .
MP I'm sorry on the radio, people who buy euros from an outlet generally
I come back to that outlet, is that the case
cP Yeah, yeah, that's
MP That's what you were quoting me on the last interview
I cP . Yeah I remember that
MP Is that what you've found in your experience running Rugeley Post Office
cP I would say so yes
MP. Okay and the type of customers
cP It's like start doing the lottery people false of habit aren't they
MP Yeah indeed
cP Yeah
I . MP And the type of customers apart from Mr: that you get
I buying euros and other foreign currencies are mainly who
cP Normal chap, people going on holiday
MP Right is there any businesses, people like that who come into buy to buy
: euros or sell euros back to you
cP No
MP No, sure
cP Yeah
MP Have you bought back euros from Mr
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I cP -I No
MP Are you sure
cP 99% positive yes
MP Never
cP { can’t save never, I've just said 99%
MP Right, okay would there be any reason why you'd buy euros back from
him, do you know .
cP I wouldn't have thought so not
MP Okay, and generally, I mean can you recall the last time you bought
, euros back, I know it's a couple of months ago now but
cP People coming in of holiday
MP Right
cP That's it I think
MP Okay
cP If ’'m short I sometimes go to the Co op and buy some -
MP Okay, see just sorry briefly going back to the 13”, when I
bought the 584,000 euros
cP Um hah .
MP Presumably you had them in the safe did you
cP Yeah
MP Right
cP Or not in the safe, either in the safe or coming in from Royal mail as well,
we had a lot in the safe that time
MP But I don't think anything came in that morning did it
cP I don’t know, no I think it did actually
MP Did it okay, so would you have had to count them out, 584,000 euros
cP Well what I usually do, the women usually, if I buy say 187,000 or say
150,000
MP Yeah .
cP We'll say that's REM put 150,000 in the box
MP Right so you have a box and that's got 150 grand in
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cP Yeah put that in the safe yeah
MP Right so how did you have, I mean when when John came in on the
morning
cP Um hah
MP Right, did you know how much he was going to buy of you before he
arrived
cP Erm
MP Had you had a conversation beforehand or not . ,
: cP He might have come in and had er, told me erm might have phoned me
I up or come in saying next time I come in what can you get me for next
: week
MP Right
cP And I think the most time I was supplying him at the moment was maybe
, 150,000
MP “I Right ;
cP So say well 2 days in and what I've got might be 350, 360 whatever I've
‘ got ,
MP Right
cP I always keep some back for the
MP Public, yeah indeed, so when you put the 5, I take it you put the 584,000
in his bag did you
cP I didn't put anything in his bag, he’s on one side of the counter, I'm on
the other
MP You passed them over to him
cP I passed them over to him yeah
MP Did you count them out to him
cP They were already in bundles
MP Of
cP” 5,000 or a.1,000
MP : Right so one bundle would have been
cP Well I don’t know they come in different amounts
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MP Oh do they okay
cP Okay
MP So you physically didn't count them yourself
CP. No, I mean what I usually do on
MP You have them ready
cP Yeah, have them ready, if they come in 150,000 I undo the bags put
150,000
MP Right
cP And put them in the same and that's 150,000
20:52 MP Right, okay, let me quickly show you this schedule, this is another
schedule which is MP/5 my exhibit, this is a schedule and again as I say
!'ve been through all of the till rolls that we have
cP Yeah okay
MP And I've concentrated mainly on the 2002 period right
cP Yeah
MP This one starts from the 28” of March 2002
cP Um hah
MP And concludes on the 4” of January 03 okay
cp Yep okay ‘
MP. And what it shows is, it shows the date taken of the till roll -
cP Yeah
MP Cash account week
cP “Yeah
MP The time of the transaction
cP And the buy notes
MP. Buy notes, what it was it's euros or
cP Yeah okay ©
MP. In this case, the amount bought back
cP Yeah
MP The rate applied
cP Yeah
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MP The sterling value
cP Yeah
MP And any comments er that may help me
cp Yeah
MP And attached to the back of that is the copies of all of them
cP Okay yeah
MP. Alright, now what I want to have a quick chat about, or just talk about
one or two of them is, well lets talk about the totals in, in amount right,
. the total there is 90,830 euros ,
cP Um hah
MP Bought back of a sterling value of £58,507.64
cP Yeah
MP Would you says that’s probably high or low or what in a 10 month ‘period
cP Well I don’t know we do, as I said, I mean I can't compare, what we do
we do seven and a half thousand transactions what does somebody
usually do with seven and a half thousand transactions
MP Okay .
CP I mean Rugeley’s with demographically with people who've got a lot of
cash and they go on holidays and take cash with them, not more not
travellers cheques but they're buying a lot of cash
MP Right, lets have a look at some of the figures then, on the 28" of March
2000 euros are bought back
cP Um hah .
MP 24" of March there’s two amounts both at the same time one after the
other 4000 and then 680
Colin 24" of April
MP Sorry 24" of April
cP Um hah
MP Erm and as we go down you can see that there is nothing really less
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cP So you telling me no one’s come back and I've had, I’ve had they've
come in for 30 euros, buy back 30 euros, no. ones .
MP No I'm sure they have, I'm sure they have -
cP Yeah :
MP I haven't picked out every single buy back
cP Yeah
MP I've picked out everything which is at the 1000 and above
cP Yeah
MP And as I say the occasional ones where it's 630 or less when they've
happened at the same time
cP + So you're just showing me the large amounts
MP lam yes
cP Yeah
MP For instance the 5" of August 02, at 13:31 hours 7,000 euros bought
back and
ce Yeah
MP Then at 13:32 630 euros bought back
cp Yeah
MP Now 7,000 euros, I mean who'd be bringing back 7,000 euros
cP Probably a businessman or
MP Businessman
cP Yeah, you trying to say Mi is coming and giving the money
back
MP Well
cP Has anyone seen Mr: come in the afternoon, I haven't seen
ome back in the afternoon
MP Does he need to come back, he does telephone orders I think
cP What do you mean does he need to come back, tell me
24:00 MP Well, lets say he doesn’t walk out with his full quota
cP . .don't get you :
MP Well he comes in obviously to take the euros from you doesn't he
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cP. Yeah
MP He walks out with a quantity of euros in the holdall doesn’t he
cp Yeah
MP What's to say he doesn't leave you 5,000 euros Carl ;
cP But what am I going to do with that because I've, oh 5,000 as a back
hander .
MP Yes
cP That's what you're trying to say
MP Yes Carl
cP Well how do I correspond with that if I get audited or something else like
that you tellme
MP What do you mean how would you, how would you because you've sold
them back to yourself
cP Yeah but I do go to the Co op like I told you, if I've run out of euros I go
to the Co op and get a large amount of euros
MP Well this is why I specifically asked you before Carl
cP But I did tell you and say I go to the Co op
MP No not about buy backs, when I was talking to you a few minutes ago
Carl, I asked you about how many people come in to do transactions
cP Yeah :
MP And what about large business customers
cP Well that’s
MP And all of those Carl you said, no, no, no, no
cP It's Joe public
MP And then I show you this little schedule here and then it's oh yeah I
toddle of down to the Co op and buy euros
cP Well I told you that
MP Why do you buy euros from the Co op
cP The reason being, it's might have run out
MP You might have run out
cP Yeah
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MP You're ordering 8 million ponds worth of euros from the Post Office and
you might have run out and you go of to the Co op and buy some euros
cP Um, you don't think I go to the Co op then
MP I don't, well you of there obviously to check the rates because you've told
us
cP Yeah, are you ask are you saying to me I don't go to the Co op and buy
euros
MP Have you done so
cP Yes
MP You have, when did you do that
cP If we start running out
MP . Well give me a date
PF Well that’s an unfair question for goodness sake
cP If you go to the Co op, if you go to the Co op and ask them
MP _ Right so the Co op should be able to confirm ,
cP Yep.
MP That you go in there and buy euros from them
cP Yeah
MP And what quantity of euros
cP According to what I might need, someone might come in and we look in
the book, oh we need 2000 euros for somebody I go down and get 2000
euros
MP Okay, cause the other thing Carl right, in my remarks column okay
cP Yeah
MP Every time there's one of these large buy backs right
cP Yeah
MP I look at when you sold euros to ME.
cP Well Mri. comes in two or three times a week
MP Yeah I know he does but you see like for instance
cP Oh you're saying so it's corresponding dates
MP . Well, I’m only pointing out what I’ve found on schedules
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cP. Okay
. MP And and under copies, erm on the 28" of March right, Mr.
buys 45K of you at 08:45
cP ° Ur hah
MP Right, at 09:43 somebody sells back to you or Rugeley Post Office
cP Tell me when does he erm
MP 2000 euros
cP The 28" of March, was it a Thursday
Colin It's a Thursday
cP Might have been 2000 over or £2000 short or whatever when we're
balancing this till
MP Sorry . : .
cP Say I'm balancing the till, it might be 50,000 euros but there's 52,000 in
there
MP Right
cP Obviously we've made a mistake somewhere, so we buy back in 52,
another 2,000 :
MP You
cP To make the balance right 52,000
MP You buy them back in from where
cP Well if I've got 52,000 in stock
MP Yeah
cP And it’s only showing 50,000
MP Yeah
‘cP There's 2000 there isn't there
MP Extra
cP Yeah
MP So why don't you just declare as an extra
cP Well I thought
MP Why do you have to buy it back
cP I thought that's what you had to do, I’m not saying that happens all the
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while but I thought that’s what you had to do to get your balance right
MP Okay
cP You're accusing me here of
MP Pm not
cP : giving me money me buying it back and
me pocketing the money
MP Well that's one argument which could be made
cP Well no you've just accused me of it
MP Well, that’s what this schedule is demonstrating I think, for instance if we
have a look at another few, on the 24” of April at 10:46 somebody buys
back 4,680 in two transactions
cP Um hah
MP The previous day on the 23" and the day after on the 25”, you sold
euros to M i
cP Okay, so if you want to go down that route, you go down that route but I
would suggest you check the Co op first
MP Okay, because see also I went back to see Jayn Batey and Margaret
Pearce and they
cP Um hah
MP Supplied me further statements
cP Um hah
MP And in there statements as well as touching on one or two other little
things about balancing, they touch on buy backs and
cP Did they say I used to go to the Co op
MP l asked, no I'm talking about buy backs from customers at Rugeley Post
Office
cP Um yeah
MP * And I asked them what generally itis and I'll read out the last bit of
Shirley's, Shirley Jayn Batey's statement, it says “Whilst operating the
Bureau till when Carl was managing the Post Office, I have performed
numerous transactions where I have bought back Euros from the
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customers and the amounts involved are generally very small, between
40 —200 Euros. I cannot recall ever having bought back more than
1000 Euros from a Customer”.
cP No ,
MP Now
29:10 cP It's very rare
MP Margaret pretty much says the same thing
cP Um hah
MP In her statement “I had a limited amount to do with the Bureau de
Change transactions at the office and although I do recall serving
customers where we have bought back Euros from them, these as far as
1 can recall, have been for small amounts such as 50 — 100 Euros. I
personally have not performed a transaction of buying back Euros for
1000 or more. :
cP Okay, well I've just said that to you anyway haven't I
MP . Right so all of these large buy backs must have been down to you then,
you must have performed them
cP Majority of them I would have thought yes
MP Right
cP Seeing as I do majority of all the transactions yeah
MP So all of these must have come from the Co op would they
cP Or one a couple of people might have come in and bought some large
amounts back yes
MP Bought some large amounts back
cp Yeah
MP Holiday makers bringing back 2000, 7000
PF Mr Page has said previously that it could have been businessmen
MP Not earlier in the interview, apparently there wasn't any Businessmen,
because I asked that specific question and you said no
cP Okay, well as I said to you demographically the people in Rugeley have
got a lot of money to spend
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MP_ Is that money that Mr has given to you for giving him
i preferential rates
I CPT aeesecaeeeee what money Mri “given me for
MP These, this money here, this £58,000 which are identified through as
buy backs through the Rugeley Post Office
cP You're saying Mr has given me the buy backs to sell give
him a preferential rate
MP Yes
cP I totally and utterly deny that
MP Yeah
cP Yes
MP It's not the case
cP No
30:52 MP Lets move on then, what are we doing for time, 29 okay see the next
schedule I want to show you and there’s two sort of attached, this is
MP/4 which is my schedule
CP - Yeah
MP And the one attached to it, behind it
cP Yep ‘
MP Is one prepared by Customs & Excise
cP Okay
MP Right, basically the one for Customs & Excise, they start on the 16" of
January 02
cP Um hah
‘MP And they go all the way through to the 4" of January 03
cP Okay yeah
MP This relates to more specifically to Mr!
cP Yeah .
MP Because these are, these are transactions, times and amounts where Mr
hhas gone of to Tomas Cook
cP Um hah
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MP And sold the euros that he’s bought from you back to Thomas Cook
cP _ Okay . .
MP. Yeah and made his little profit ’
cP Um hah
MP Yeah okay, now what I've done by using that information on that
schedule prepared by Customs and my own little schedule there
cP Yep
MP Right and the copies of cheques that I've got back from Chesterfield
cp Yeah :
MP I've prepared this little schedule here, MP/4 right
cP Un hah
MP The first portion deals with the purchase, that’s this one basically
cp Yeah okay yeah
MP All the purchases made from Rugeley Post Office
cP Um hah
MP The middle section deals with the cheques
cp Um hah ,
MP That I've been able to find for those purchases
cP Okay yeah
MP The amounts involved and the BCV date, the date that
cP You see them
MP They're sent way okay
cP Yep .
MP Then the final section deals with the Thomas Cook deposits, the date Mr
went in, the amount he deposited, any difference and any
other comments for my
cP Um yeah okay yeah .
MP I-don’t want to labour this one too much regarding the differences but I -
do want to use it to demonstrate some of the delays in cheques, but
basically you can see the red figures here, for instance on the 14" of
March 02
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cP Yeah
1 MP. Okay, which was a Thursday he buys 64,900 euros
cP Um hah
MP Right and erm if we go across on the same day later on he deposits
60,000 euros right
cP Um .
MP And thereby it was 4,900 less than he bought from you
cP Yeah
MP Okay, that's what I do down here
cP Yeah okay
MP On some of them you can see blue figures with a plus value
cP Um hah
MP And that means he's deposited more than he’s bought from you
' cP Okay yep
MP And we go along through that for every single entry that we have yeah '
cP Um hah yeah
MP Now I want to talk specifically about one or two of those transactions not,
I'm not going to go through all of them, but as I say more specifically to
do with erm, the delays in cheque submission, I was just looking at the
time, seeing how much time we had left that’s all. Right lets as I've
mentioned the 14” of March lets start with the 14” of March then, now
then 14” of March if you look at that schedule there
cP Yep
MP Right on MP/3, you can see there's 3 transactions on the 14" of March
right -
cP Yeah okay
MP. One at 07:19
cP Yeah
MP One at 07:20
cP Yeah
MP And one at 13:04 yeah
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cP Yeah
MP. 07:19, Mri. uys 13,900 euros
cP Then 11,000
MP Then 11,000 at 07:19
cP Okay
MP - And then in the afternoon 40,000 euros ,
cP Okay
34:44 MP . Yeah, now... so according to that, 07:19
ér you open at 08:00 isn't it
cP Yeah
MP Erm and that was March so that would have been one hour, because
. your clocks off isn’t, one hour off .
cP Yeah
MP So that would have been 08:19 yeah
cP Er no, could be 07:19, I might not have changed it
MP Okay, alright, but you might have been closed then
cP Yeah
MP So and that's what he was doing wasn't he, he was coming in when it
was closed for security reasons
cP That's correct
MP So he’s come in at 07:19
cP Can I ask a question before you go any further
MP Yeah
cP On your statement you said that Mi ame in with his driver,
or his driver
MP He came in with his
cP No his driver was there
MP Right
cP And you said every time I saw Mr; “I his driver wasn't there
MP I'm sorry when did I say his driver.was there
cP Well you say it in the statements that are given out
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MP Sorry which statement
cP There are statements corresponding to when Mr_____‘ GRO ‘arrives with
his driver and his driver is, Customs & Excise said on the Monday that
he got arrested that he was waiting outside with his driver
MP ” Right
cP His driver wasn't there
MP Outside your office
cP Yes, I've never seen his driver
MP Right
cP 1 just want to make that point because to say his driver was there makes
it more dramatic
MP Well I haven't, I mean I've spoken to Mr Horton, Mr Horton has spoken
to Customs & Excise, he claims he’s never seen you and he claims he’s
never been in the Post Office
cP Okay
MP So I'm not disputing that fact
cP Okay
MP And I don't think I led you to believe that he had
cP There was, there is somewhere that’s saying that Mr Horton is outside
the Post Office
MP Well maybe
cP Okay
MP Customs were doing the surveillance, so I don’t know what they saw
cP Yeah I can give you the registration number if you want
MP Okay, presumably Mr... His on the premises at 07:19, 07:20
cP Yeah okay, yeah yeah okay
MP To do those transactions right
cP Yeah okay
MP He must obviously go away and then oops I’ve lost it, erm he comes
back at 13:04
cP ‘Well it’s very unusual but obviously according to that he has, I mean!
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can't say what happened this time last , well March last year but it's very
unusual if he did do .
MP Why do you say it’s very unusual
cP l usually see him in the morning
MP Is that generally the case, he’s always
cP Yeah .
I MP Comes in the morning
cP Unless he came, he might have come back, the only thing I can think of
is if he wanted some more euros and the special deliveries hadn't come
in ‘
MP Right
CP From next door, but that, that’s if anything
MP Right but what would you say, what percentage wise would you say 90%
of the time or something
cP Oh more than that 95% he's come in the morning yeah
MP But there are, I mean if you just have a quick scan down there are the
occasional blips
cP Yeah, yeah
MP 15:57 on the 2™ of April,
cP I mean sometimes and this is no, you do the transaction on the you
know on the Forde Moneychanger and if you press yes you get how
much one euros worth right
MP Right
cP Got, sometimes you come to the till and you serve somebody else you
accidentally press cancel and it cancels that transaction
MP Right
cP So you might have, you know I've cancelled, I'm not saying we did Mr
C but he might have cancelled some of his previous
transaction so you go to the tape and you put it back in again do you
know what I mean
MP Right, okay alright, lets have a look then at .........+0+ these are the
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cheques which relate to those three thransactions okay
cP Okay
38:40 MP. The first one which is at 07:19 is 13,900 and the cheque value is
£8,128.65
cP Yeah okay
MP Right if I find that cheque, there we are there’s the copy of the cheque
cP Yeah
MP £8,128.65
cP Yeah okay yeah
MP Yeah, Mr “icheque can you make out on that
cP Looks like it yeah
MP I think it's cheque number 100256
. cp 14" of the 3% 02
MP Yeah well you beat me to it, right that's dated the 14” of the 3° 02 yeah
cP Yeah okay .
MP Which is the date it happened yeah
cP Yeah .
MP The next one, which should be for a value of £6,432.75
cP Yeah
MP Is there yeah
cP 14” of the 3° 02 yeah
MP Yeah, 14" of the 3° and the same value as Mr!
cP Yep
MP Okay that’s the two cheques which have been accepted for that
transaction
cp Okay
MP Later on in the day then it would appear he’s come back at 13:04 for
whatever reason
cP Um hah
MP : Yeah, would that be the case or
cP Maybe I mean I
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MP What other reason would there be
cP I've told you maybe, other reason maybe but he obviously came back
MP Right but you've never
cP It's very
MP You've never taken them to him
cP Nevertakentohim
MP Any of your staff taken them to him
cP No as far as I know they haven't know
MP Okay, right
cP Ido not know Mr: at all apart from coming into the Post
Office .
MP - Well another transaction happens at 14:03 right and he again pays by
cheque which is the normal method
cP Um hah .
MP. And the value of that cheque is £23,432.92 and
cP What date’s that
MP 14", we're still on the 14”
cP Yeah okay yeah
MP There's three transactions yeah
cP . Yeah
MP Value of the cheque should be £23,432.92
. CP . Okay yeah
MP And there it is, 14” of March
cP Yeah okay yeah
MP £23,432.92
cp Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
MP Okay, now there are a number of questions relating to this but the first
one I want to ask you is you see this bundle I’m holding here
cP Yeah
MP Right that's the BCV
cP Yeah
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MP Right and that BCV is dated 43” 02 02
cP. Yeah
MP Right, that's a Wednesday, 13.02.02
cP Yeah
MP The 14” is a Thursday
cP. Yeah
MP Right, how did and that’s datestamped the 43
cP Yeah
MP How did the cheques which were presented on the 14” get sent away on
the 13
cP Well the 13”, she would have stamped that on the Wednesday night
presume, is the 13” a Wednesday
Colin What month you looking at
MP Erm March, I think it was
Colin 13" of March is a Wednesday
MP Yeah
cP ‘I Yeah she might have stamped that 13” ready to
MP She, she
cP . Sent, it would have been Margaret
MP One of the staff right
cP It's got is that Barbar, Barbara, I mean he might have come in Thursday
morning I hadn't finished doing the Bureau and I've done it
MP Right
cP You know these transactions and put everything through for that
MP _ Right
cP I mean, you're turning round to me and saying I'm holding the cheques
there’s one there for the 14” and it's gone through that week on the 413”
so I couldn't be holding his cheques can I
MP Well no there's two, there’s two here
cP For the 14” yeah
MP Yeah for the two transactions which is done at 07:19 and 20 both
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cheques are on the BCV dated the 43"
cP For the, I might have done, come in the morning to balance I usually
come first through to balance the Bureau right
MP Yeah, yeah
cP And he's done the transactions and I've put it in that week
MP Right
cP Okay but you're telling me that I'm holding the cheques deliberately back —
MP Well you clearly haven't on this one have you
‘I cP Well you just contradicting yourself then, what are trying to say then are
you
42:40 MP Well maybe, lets have a look at the 3% cheque then
cP Yeah .
MP. Yeah, the £23,000 cheque yeah :
cP Yeah
MP Done later in the day
cP And that goes the following week
MP Goes the following week, why doesn't it go that night
cP Probably cause between the 07:20 and the 13:04, I'd have done the
. transaction wouldn't I
MP Yeah you did the transaction at 13:04
cP No I'd have sent the cheques off to balance the tills
MP Right no, okay so why didn't you send the cheques out later that night,
the other cheques you've got or the following day, why did you wait until
Wednesday, sorry until
cP The following Wednesday
MP Yeah and here's the BCV
cP You've already asked me that, you've already
MP Which is sent in on the 20”
cp You've already asked me that question cause I keep everything back to
do when I can-yeah
MP .I Did you purposely delay that cheque so that Mr GRO _/so that
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money wouldn't come out of his account for a number of days
cP No because I sent the cheques out for 07:19 time and 07:20 I'd have
balanced everything off and at 13:04 would have gone to the next
MP You see the two cheques for the 07:19 and 20 which you despatched
immediately
cP Yeah
MP Were quite low value aren't they
cP Yah but I've I've balanced
MP 8,000 and 6,000
cP But I've balanced the till up haven't I :
MP Okay yeah that's fine and that comes to about 14 odd thousand pounds
cP Yeah :
MP Whereas the £23,000 cheque presented to you later on the same day
. hangs
cP Would have gone
MP About in your till for another 7 days before you get around to sending it
; away.
cP But I’ve told you why that is
MP Um you have, you have, but you see I'd like to know whether it's Mr
Hl whose asking you to delay those cheques or whether it's
you Carl doing it of your own back
cP No
MP Because you are delaying those cheques clearly
cP As I said to you. I’ve told you why I’m delaying them haven't I
MP Because you balance at the end of the week
cP And I don’t want to make any mistakes with the large amount of
cheques, case reversing figures and everything else like that
MP Okay let, lets come onto, now you're quite clear Mr I"
have come back at 13:04 .
cP Oh I don't know, I presume he would have done yes
MP See because when you look at the transaction, see Mi
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went back (buzzer sounds) on the same day
cP Gonna finish
MP He went back on the same day, erm I think we'll probably start a fresh
tape, probably easier, there isn’t that much more, erm have we got
another seal
Colin Yeah
45:45 MP ,I Cheers, Carl just once more again on the top, 058039, thank you, okay
and the time now then being 18:00 I'm suspending this interview
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