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Record of Tape
Recorded Interview
Person Interviewed MRCARL ADRIAN PAGE (CP) , I Exhibit No:
Number of pages:
Place of Interview Hand Morgan & Owen
17 Martin Street .
Stafford Signature of interviewing
ST16 “I officer producing exhibit
Date of Interview 23" April 2003
Time commenced 18:02 hours Time concluded 18:48 hours
Duration of interview 46 minutes Tape referenceno 058040
Interviewing Officer(s) I Manish Patel (MP) Colin Price (Colin)
Other persons present Mr Patrick Farrington (PF)
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00:10 MP Okay, I'm resuming the interview it's 18:02 hours, just before you sign
that Carl can I ‘its just procedure .
cP sorry
MP Erm you've thrown me know, we're at the same interview room which is .
Hand Morgan & Owen, 17 Martin Street, same people are present, my
name is Manish Patel and my colleague
Colin Colin Price
cP Carl Adrian Page
PF Patrick Farrington
00:34 MP Okay, Carl I remind you that you remain under Caution and that is you
do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence if you do not
mention when questioned something which you later rely on in Court,
anything you do say maybe given in evidence. Do you understand that
cP I do understand that yes thank you .
MP You were busily filling in that form there, CS001, I can see that you've
signed it all up, I will read out what it says so there’s no
misunderstanding to what you're signing
cP okay
MP I remind you that this is a voluntary interview that you've agreed to. I
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You're not under arrest and you do not have to remain at this interview, if
you do remain you have the right to legal representation, obviously Mr
Farrington is here on your behalf and you're entitled to read the Police
and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 codes of practice
cP okay
MP And obviously at the back you've signed there saying that I've reminded
you of the Caution, you remain under caution and I've reminded you of
your legal rights and that you do wish Mr Farrington to remain at the
interview yeah
cP Yeah no problem and I do not want a friend from the Post Office, if 1 do 1
can tell you .
01:30 MP Thank you, right before we were cut short there we were talking about
the 14” of March 2002, okay erm we just talked about those cheques,
the thing that's thrown me a little bit now and maybe you can offer an’
explanation as to this erm is that on the 14" of March he buys in total ”
over the 3 transactions °
cP Um hah
MP Right, he buys erm 64,900 euros
cP Yeah
MP Okay, he goes of to erm, if we refer to MP/4 right
cP Yeah
MP He goes of to Thomas Cook down the road
cP Um hah
MP And he deposits 60,000 euros on the same day
cP Yeah
MP And we talked about that before .
cP Yeah yeah
MP It was less 4,900 okay, now what concems me a little bit
cP Yeah
MP And maybe as I said you might be able to explain is this is the actual
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cP Yep okay
MP That they keep
cP Um hah
MP Thomas Cook yeah bit like ourselves in the Post Office and this is their
till receipt okay
cP Yeah
MP There's their till receipt, it's 44" of March 2002 60,000 euros bought
cP Um hah
MP From the customer
cP Um hah’
MP And then they give the sterling value and if you have a close look at that
cp Yeah okay
MP You'd probably be able to work out how much he made from it
cP Yeah
MP But it gives the sterling value, what concerns me is the time Carl
because the time they bought the euros back from him was ay 11:57
hours
cP Um hah yeah :
3:00 -I MP Well how did he have 60,000 euros to sell to Thomas Cook at 11:57
hours if he had bought them from you yet ‘
cP He might still have some himself
MP No you see he doesn't, because the previous day or the previous
amount should I say
cP Um hah —
MP On the 12” of March right
cP Um hah
MP Two days before the 14”, he buys 57,000 from you
cP’ Um hah a
MP And on the same day he deposits 57,000
cP Yeah but I don’t know what his
MP On the 9” of March which is the Saturday
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cP Yep
MP He buys 40,000 from you and he deposits 40,000, so he probably didn’t
have anyexcessamount -= = '
cP Well I don’t know that do I, 'mnot Mri GRO
MP No indeed you're not
cP , I mean he might have turned round and said well look he wanted to used
60,000 or whatever, how much he wanted to use .. .. and he
made up of his money and came back and I don’t know, wanted wanted
used some of his own money he was going to use legitimately as I say
for Business and I didn't have them in stock for him in the morning he
used some of his money or legitimate money he’s going to use for his
own business and come back and
MP Well he must, he must have found 40,000 of his legitimate own money
then .
PF Well
cP - No no no 40,000 euros he might have had, I don’t know what he's got in
stock dol
MP Um
cP I don't
MP You see
cP I don't know M don't run his business
MP No you don’t, no and what I’m saying to you is that Mr;
whether it's known to you or not is carrying out this little scam of his to
make money okay
cP - Yeah
MP He goes in buys euros from you one days and generally on the same
day he goes of and
cp Okay .
MP And deposits them
cP Well :
MP Sometimes it’s a day later, sometimes it's two days later
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cP Um
MP And here we are he's doing exactly that on the 14" he buys then from
you and he sells them back to Thomas Cook on the 14” and on the 19” _
a few days later he buys some more of you, 45,000
cP Um -
MP And he deposits 40,600 on the 19" so
cP Yeah
MP So it doesn't seem as though he’s got any spare cash lying around albeit
he may well have .
cP Well I don’t
MP But this is how his little scam works
cP Okay
MP He buys from you, he sells immediately after
cP Yeah you've told me that
MP Right so it still puzzles me as to how he had 60,000 euros
PF Mr Page has answered that question on :
cP 1 don't know
PF At least two occasions in the last five minutes, he said he doesn't know
can we please move on
cP I mean you're asking me, why don’t you ask me why does he drive a
BMW and not a Ford Focus, how the hell would I know, can you ? yes
orno
05:10 MP Did you give him all of the euros 64,900 euros at 07:20 hours
cP I would have only give him what's on there, 44,900 that's probably all I
had in stock
MP “] Well no the two transactions
cP Or 23 sorry 23
MP . 23, 900"
cP 23,900
MP 24,900
cP 24,900
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MP Right so you didn't give him all of the 64,900 euros at 07:20
cP I'm 99.99% sure, I mean it was over a year ago no I didn't
MP Right okay
cP I mean is there any more incidents like that
MP Do you know of any .
cP No I'm asking you a question, you're the one’s with the figures in front of
you 7
MP Okay, seems odd though doesn't it
PF Well again he’s answered the question can we move on please
06:05 MP Right lets erm, ‘ lets go to some of the , one or two of the cheques
then and lets have a look at Friday 22") of March .....eseeseeeee tight Friday
the 22™ of March right
cP Yeah okay
MP A number of transactions there
cP 40,000 and 43,200 okay
MP And there’s some more erm 5,000
cP Well you've got two, you've got two here for the 22" of March
MP You've got
. cP Three sorry 5,000 yep okay
MP One at 07:18 for 40,000
cP Yep
MP One at 07:21 for 43,000
cP Yeah and one for 5,000
MP At 07:23 yeah okay, now the 07:21 lets concentrate on that right, 43,200
euros he buys
cP - Yeah
MP And the value should be £25,411.76
cP Yeah
07:10 MP Yeah okay, these are some of the cheques right, well lets 07:18, right
the 07:18 transaction was for a cheque for £23,529.41
cP Yeah okay
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MP Here's the cheque copy of
cP Okay yeah
MP Cheque number 100263
cP Yep yeah
MP Same amount, 23,000
cP Yeah
MP Okay at 07:23.......sesecceees that comes in the next one at 07:23
cP Um hah
MP I ccesesssssesessnnsessssee right he does a value of £5,000
cP 1.7
MP And er sorry 5,000
cP £2,941.18
MP Indeed right .
cP Yeah okay
MP Now that cheque ........cssssseessreees Sorry here itis, that's the cheque
"I there
cP Yeah okay
MP £2,941.18 cheque number 10026
cP 5
MP 5, 22™ third 02
cp Um hah
MP Yeah, so we should have one cheque for £25,411.76
cP Um hah
MP Yeah, we have a cheque, cheque number 100264, 22" of March 2002
cP . Yeah okay ,
MP £15,411.74
cP 74 or 76
MP 76 sorry
cP Okay yeah
MP Why is it £10,000 short
CP seanensstees eee eeeteee don't know might have given me £10,000 in cash
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MP He might have given you £10,000 in cash
cP Um
MP Has he ever bought from you in cash before
cP Um, he used to he did first alittle while, not very often though but I did
point that out to the Police when I got interviewed it’s not very often he
did he did bring cash a couple of times plus the cheque
09:20 MP He's given you cash sometimes and a cheque
cP It's happened about 3 or 4 times and that was it
MP 3 or 4 times, right it's news to me I haven't heard that before and I've
read the transcripts from the Police had with you
cP Right .
MP That's never been mentioned before, it seems to be the suggestion was
he's always paid by cheque °
cP , Well 99% of the time he did pay by cheque
MP But for that occasion he must have given you
cP He must have given me cash
MP 10 grand in cash
cP Or he might have give another cheque later on, if there’s no cheque
there he must have given me the cash
MP Well that’s the cheque for the transaction
cP Okay
MP It's 10 grand light, you don't know why, you think it might have been
cash he gave you ,
cP Yeah
MP Okay, erm now again these cheques and you know ! think you've
answered it already but I'll make a point on tape, these cheques which
were taken in on the 22™ of March didn’t get despatched until the 27" on
the BCV and again it’s a delay of 6 days
cp Um hah poveeenecennneey
MP Seems to always be adelay of Mr, G RO ‘cheques
cP
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Er hold on a minute, delay on all Bureau cheques not just Mr
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MP Well you don't take cheques for anyone else do you
cP Yes I do, you know we do
MP You do, okay, lets
cP Do you excuse me but
MP Sorry
cP Are you saying it’s just Mi I GRO 5 cheques Holding back or is it
the Bureau cheques I'm holding back
‘MP Well you tell me
cP No you just said
MP Which one’s are you holding back
cP I'm holding the Bureau cheques back cause I’ve told you why I hold
them back cause
MP So it's all the cheques taken for Bureau
cP That's correct
MP That you hold back, lets look at the 28" of March 2002 right, 28" of
March only one transaction it happens at 08:45
cP Um hah
MP 45,000
cP ‘ Yeah
MP Bought and that’s the value okay 26 odd K yeah
cp Yeah ‘
MP Erm and if we look at the cheques in relation to that amount, we come
across this cheque here, which is cheque number 10027 I can't read that
er I think it's 271
cP Um hah
MP It's a little bit blurred, anyway as you can see the amount is £16,315.79
cP Yeah
MP It's 10 grand light again Carl
cP As I said to you a couple of times he maybe done that
MP Right
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cP. Lknow he has done that
MP So he probably gave you cash on that occasion as well
7
cP Maybe yeah
MP . To make up the difference, see that doesn't work with his scam he can’t
he can't make a profit giving you cash Carl, not that you'd be aware of
that but if he gives you cash and that's the whole reason why he gives
you cheques, if he gives you cash he’s, one the moneys coming straight
out of his account
cp “) Um .
MP And secondly he can't you know it's not making him any profit
cP “I Well that's not down to me, it doesn’t concern me
MP * No but see that doesn't follow his modus operandi because every other
occasion he seems to have paid by cheque, for the 110 transactions
we've got we've got the vast majority of those cheques back but yet
these two are 10 grand light and you know offer the explanation that
cP I haven't offered I haven't been
MP He gave you 10 grand in cash
cP Yes
MP That's not been mentioned before Carl
cP It's never been asked though
MP Um, but I think you have mentioned previously in interviews that he
always pays by cheque but it seems to
cP Majority of times as far as I can remember he always pays by cheque
yes .
MP But it seems to have now changed .
cP No, what two transactions over how many transaction’s he done
MP Okay
cP What is it 0.1% is it
MP Sorry 0.
cP Is it 0.1% of all the transactions he does is it
MP I don't know, I haven't worked that out Carl; okay there are.some other
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anomalies as well, lets have a look at Wednesday the 29" of May
ceeeeeeee okay, Wednesday 29" of May there's one transction
cP Um
MP 0956 hours
cP Um hah
MP 62,000 euros purchased
cP Yeah
MP For a sterling value of £37,575.76
cP 76 p, yep
MP Right, now that’s a Wednesday, Wednesday 29”
cP Yeah
MP Right, NOW ......sceeeee there we go, this is the cheque in relation to that
transaction alright
cP Um hah
MP It's cheque number 100036 there it is
cP Okay
MP Okay, do you see the date on there Carl
cP 31* of the fifth yeah
MP 31* of the fifth and there’s no year is there
cP seeseeeeseeen YOON
MP ; Right one question which springs to mind
13:50 cP Why did I accept a cheque without a year on
MP Well that was my second question
cP Yeah
MP The first question which sprung to mind was that if you conducted the
transaction on the 28" of of erm May, where are we 28" of May
cP Yeah ,
MP Why you took a cheque which was dated the 31" on that
cP No you said 28" of May, no you've got the 31* of May, 37 what
MP No that's not the same value this is the cheque in relation to the
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cP 29", 29" of
MP Which happened on the 28"
cP No 29" of May, 37,575 which is the 29" of May
MP Sorry 29" beg your pardon, I meant the 29”
cP Okay *
MP On the 29" of May you do that transaction for that same value 37
whatever
cP Yeah okay when's the 31" excuse me when's the 31 of May
Colin Friday
MP Well, yeah 29" was a Wednesday, the 31*is a Friday so the first
question which springs to mind is why you took that cheque for a
transaction which occurred on Wednesday the 29"
cP Before you go any further I think I was at Euro Disney, when did I get
audited last
MP Erm you were in Euro Disney at the later part of
cP + July
MP dune
cP June okay, that's’ right, I knew it was the end of the month some time
MP Right
cP Okay that's fair enough, fair enough, so it's 37,575.76
MP Yeah ,
cP And the date for that is what, the 29”
MP Yeah
cP He put the wrong, I mean before you showed me cheques he's put the
. wrong date on, I mean do I accept post dated cheques, no! don't
MP Well clearly you do, this is the second, at least the second example of
Post dated cheques and I’m not going through all of them, there's many
post dated cheques, why do you do that .
cP I don’t check the dates to be perfectly honest, on most of the cheques
-I MP. Right, so would that be why you've also missed of the year
cP Yeah I would say so yeah ;
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MP Cause you don't check the date
CP i check the date when I book, when I'm doing the transactions and
you're going through and you check the amount that figures up you don’t
expect to check the dates all the while.
MP Would it be because the transaction happened on a Wednesday
cP Yeah
MP Cash account end week
cp Yeah
MP If he dates it after the Wednesday
cP Yeah :
MP You don't have to submit it until the next Wednesday do you
cP Yeah but if the auditors come in I'm going to show a shortage aren't I
MP Will you
cP 1 would do wouldn't I
MP That's if the auditors come in Carl
cP Oh
MP Because you don't, you don’t then send that cheque away until
Wednesday 5” of June
cP Which is .
MP Which is the following week
cP Which is what I usually do anyway as you know
MP You sold them in cash account week 9 right
cP Yeah
MP If you turn back to it
cP When was this sent away on the 9”
MP No it was sent away on the 5" of June, Wednesday, there’s the BCV
there it is
cP Um hah
MP 5” of June with it you sent away another 99 cheques right
cP Umhah :
MP . So you see you did that transaction on the, on week 9
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cP Yeah
MP On Wednesday the 29” of May
cP Yeah
MP The cheque is dated for week 10
cP Yeah
MP Right and you don't send it way until you have to on Wednesday the s*
. of June which is week 10, so how did you account for this transaction of
the 29" in your finance in your accounts in your cash account, cause
clearly you didn't bring this cheque to account until the following week
cP 1 don’t know .
MP Did you cook the books
cP I don't cook the books no
MP No
cP No
MP Well how did you account for it then
“CP I don’t know
MP Okay, but it fits in nicely with my little theory doesn't it
cP Yeah but your theory's completely wrong
MP Um
cP
MP Yeah L
cP And me pocketing the money
MP Yeah
cP Well if you go to Co op in Cannock er not Cannock in Rugeley you'll find
last year I was there best customer
MP Okay so you can't explain then
cP No
17:40 MP Okay, thank you, now lets go onto the 7” of June, 7” of June, now let
me just remind you in your previous interview Carl
cP Yep . .
MP l asked you erm , when you do these transactions for Mr
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how you put them through the till and you said always down as one
transaction right
cp Um hah
MP If you look at
cP There's quite a few there isn’t there
MP 7™ you'll see five transactions there
cp Yeah
MP And they're all done within the space of 4 minutes, one after the other
every single one and here's the actual, here are the actual printouts from
cP. Yeah okay
MP From the bottom copy and you can see there’s one after, after each one,
why did you put them in as 5 different transactions
cP 1 don't know, it might not have been me who done it, it might have been
one of the girls that have done it and just checking that it might have
20,000 bundles and just sell 20,000 at a time
MP Um, but it ups your remuneration doesn't it
cP Oh
MP Doesn't it
cP What Four pound, one two three four, £4.40 instead of £5 something
instead of £1 something
MP Well then
cp Excuse me but where else does it say on here that I do that
MP Do what
cP . I Well you just said upping my remuneration
MP Well for each transaction, you get £1.12 don't you
cP Yeah
MP Right so if there's five transactions instead of one you make more
money don’t you
cP Yes that’s correct, but if ! did do that transaction which I very much doubt
tight, bearing in mind that time of night it probably would have been, is
7” of June a Wednesday
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MP It's a Friday
cP. Friday, well might have find it that it could have been Jayn that done it
last thing at night
MP Okay so it could have been somebody else then
cP It could be somebody else but where else can you find on here
MP Okay
cP That I've done that .
19:35 MP Well there is another occasion we'll talk about that in a minute, lets just \
stick with this one Carl
cP
MP “gave whoever it was, whether it was you or Jayn or
whoever, one cheque, he gave them one cheque, the amount should be
£45,857.99
cp Yeah ~
MP Right and the cheque we have
cP Is for the total amount
MP Is for the total amount less £5 in fact
cP . Oh, yeah
MP Okay, now
cp She might have had bundles of 20,000 and might have sold them of at
20,000 ‘
MP Well how can you say that cause you weren't sitting there next to her
were you ;
cP Well I don't know, you're asking me a question and I'm trying to give you
a logical explanation
MP . Right, so it wouldn't have been you who did that then that transaction
cP { wouldn't have thought so no
MP Because you wouldn't have separated
cP I would no I wouldn't sep
MP Those five different transactions would you
cP I wouldn't have thought so, I’ve have added them up and done it that
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way
MP Sorry
cp I would have added them up and done it one transaction
MP Yeah, well clearly he came in with one cheque and he wanted 77,500
euros because that’s what they all equate to ,
cP He might have done it, 5,000 whoever done it might have done 5,000
time put in 5,000 in session those 5,000 do it that way 7
MP Well that would be the first occasion that’s ever happened then
cP Well yeah might be the first is it the last
MP no
cp How many other times is it happened
MP Well we'll talk about that in a minute
cP Okay
MP So let me get this clear, it wouldn't have been you who did that
transaction
cP I very much doubt it
MP Right, must have been one of your staff
cP I would have thought so because there's a lot of staff in being a Friday
MP Okay
cP It might have been Barbara or Lynn
I MP Well !'ll go back and see Jayn and Margaret ;
I cP You can do, but ask other people the other people as well cause there is
I Helen who can do transactions as well and there's also Lynn and
Barbara but they don't do as much aan
MP Okay
cP Will you ask also Jayn and Margaret whether I get money from the Co
op as well please
MP I will do, I will do
cP Okay
MP And these cheques again which were taken on
cP Friday didn’t go until the following Wednesday
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MP - Indeed
cP Okay
MP 42" of June which accounts fora6 day delay ~ -
cP Okay, but as I said I had my rear end kicked over that, I said I do most
for that :
MP Alright, I think just one, just one more that I want to talk about which is
’ interesting, erm Monday the 4" of July, what's the time now
cP Er was I in Euro Disney then .
MP Monday the 4" of July, I don’t know you tell me Carl I don’t know when
you went on Holiday
cP You just said to me, when was the audit when did I get audited
MP The audit was the 27 of June 2002
cP When was the 1® of July ¢
Colin & MP I Monday .
cP I didn’t come in till late on that day, in fact I don't think I came in that
Monday at all actually because I didn't fly in till, did not fly in till the
Sunday late, Sunday evening
MP Okay, so you couldn't help me why I've got two cheques which are,
which have Sunday's date on it
cP No
MP They have the date of the 23” of June
cP Instead of what:
MP 2002
cP Instead of what date .
MP ‘Well the transaction happened on the 1* of July
cP I don't know .
MP No
cP Sunday's date
MP Yes, well presumably you were in Euro Disney
cP Yeah I was cause the audit team, I got audited on the Thursday, Friday
MP What, what can you recall the dates you were in Euro Disney, ! know it's
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some time ago
cP When did I get audited
MP 27" of June 2002 .
cP That week from the Sunday into the following Sunday evening
MP Okay :
cP I did come in on the Monday
MP Okay fine
cP That's when I got audited cause they spoke to me on the phone when I
got audited .
23:15 MP Yeah that's a point why did you keep calling the office when you
cP No they
. MP ,_ Were in Euro Disney .
cP Well if you get audited and and the people are saying there's something
wrong with the office you would phone the office up, what's up with that
MP No I’m just asking a question
cP I mean isn't that being conscientious or what
MP Yeah, it is yeah no it is, I don't know many Subpostmasters who would
call from overseas though but, anyway
cP Well do you many Subpostmaster whose had a first holiday in 4 years
MP Probably quite a few yeah
cP Yeah, okay lets ask you question, since I took over the Post Office in
Rugeley, has it got more profitable for the Post Office yes or no
MP I couldn't answer that question, I’ve not looked at the stats I’m just purely
looking at this as a criminal matter, I would have to look at all your sales
figures and as I say I'm not a businessman nor am la retail line
manager, I don't look at that
cP Okay
MP I don't need to, anyway just to summarise that, that bit there’s 130
_cheques which we've found so far
cP Um hah
MP Which we've located for these transactions okay
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cP Well that’s not down to me, when you say located that's
MP No no I’m not suggesting that to you
cp Okay .
MP That's all I've located from Chesterfield so far
cP Yeah okay well
MP 63 of them okay have encountered a delay of over 2 days, that’s roughly
50 %, 48 % in fact
cP Okay
MP 87 different days where transactions have occurred right, Monday,
Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday right
cP Yeah okay
MP 39 of those always happen on a Thursday or a Friday and that's about
45%
cP Um hah
MP~ Now you see my little theory is that the transactions are done ona
Thursday or Friday because it gives you the maximum amount of time to
delay the cheques Carl would that be the case
cP No .
MP No you haven't suggested to Mr
on a Thursday and a Friday, because he wouldn't know about cash
“that lets do the transaction
account weeks would he
cP Well I wouldn't have thought so no
MP Have you discussed cash account weeks with him
cP No :
MP What about Post Office procedures with him, have you discussed them,
what do you discuss when he comes in and buys he’s euros
cp The weather
MP Right
cp I don’t know Mri “GRO __[ery, personally at all
MP Alright ‘
cP 1 mean the Police found my telephone records they know how often I
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phone him and that was what 30 seconds every now and again, I don’t
know him socially, I've never met him socially, in fact some of my
members of staff know move about him than I do
MP Okay
25:50 cP And that was some interview that you asked, that you had with him as in
his ex wife being a member of the Post Office at Rugeley but not when I
was there
MP Lets erm ,there was something else which was erm, before I show you
this, we'll come onto this ina sec. Ona weekly basis, you talked it about
it earlier, Command 10 you have to do a Command 10
cP Yeah okay yeah
MP What does the command 10 show you
cP It shows the stock from previous week, the stock from this week, the
amount of transactions, no stock from, stock from last week, stock from
this week the differential
MP Right
cP How many but notes, how many sell notes of foreign money, how many
travellers cheques
MP Okay
cP Of sterling how many travellers cheques of foreign buy back and
everything else on and how many transactions
MP And on there it will show you the revaluation figure
cP Yeah should do yeah
MP And it will show you how much, how much
cP Differential stock
MP Stock you should have on hand
cP That's correct yeah
MP . The sterling value
cP That's right
MP Right and what happens you physically have that in, on hand in the till
cP Well you should do, you should have like X amount which equals xX
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amount of sterling yeah
MP Right and are you required to report the revaluation figure somewhere
cp You send it away don’t you
MP Is it on a summary sheet that you
cP ‘Command 10 yeah
MP Send these things away, you send the command 10
cP Send away to Chesterfield
MP With a little summary sheet
cP That's right yeah
, MP Which shows the revaluation figure right, from the command 10 do you
pluck out any figures from the command 10 to put into Horizon, because
you need some figures to balance don’t you
28:35 cP Well yes you balance of that don’t you
MP Well what figures do you take out and put into Horizon
cP As in erm, er how many transactions you do sterling
MP Right
cP Er not sterling, transactions you sell notes erm travellers cheques,
differential in Bureau as in the rates and your stock figure, how, what
you REM in and REM out
MP Okay and somewhere in there you need to put the revaluation figure as
well don’t you
cP That's correct yeah
MP And also you need to put in the amount of, the sterling value of
cp Of stock ‘
MP You've, you've got on hand in stock yeah
cP That's right yeah
MP Do you do that
cP Yeah why
MP Well I'm just asking, do you do that
29:10 cP Yeah I do that on command 10 yeah
MP Who enters that into Horizon
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cP : It's usually me sometimes it could be Jayn
<MP Right, Jayn knows how to do that .
cP She struggles a bit with it -
MP Right so generally percentage wise speaking how
cP 99% me or 95%
MP That you do it : 1
cP Well she sometimes do it and I check it, that’s if I busy doing something
or not there or whatever .
MP Right and do you do that on the Thursday morning
cP Usually the Thursday morning yeah or sometimes the Wednesday night
see how busy I am
MP Okay
cP If it's like, It's like in the summer you're jam packed with you travellers
cheques and everything else like that, I used to do it Thursday morning
MP Right okay, now the cash accounts then are they done on the Thursday
morning, who produces the cash account, the final cash account
30:20 cP . I produce the final cash account
MP You do, does any of your staff know how to do that
cp Margaret knows how to do it yeah
MP Does she do it
cP Yeah sometimes she does yeah
MP Right and when you've produced it, obviously there’s two copies isn’t
there
cP ‘One is, one in the, one sent away and when you put one in the drawer
MP Right and the one you send away is up to Chesterfield isn’t it
cP That's correct yeah
MP And the two should be identical shouldn't they
cP Should do yeah
MP Right and do you sign them, does Margaret sign them who signs them I
cP Margaret sometimes does and I sign them as well
MP But do you, you produce the cash account itself
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cP Majority of the time yes -
31:03 MP . Okay, this is an exhibit again recovered by the Police, it's NJW/8
cP Okay
MP Okay, it’s just what we've been talking about, this is for week 41 okay
cP Um hah
MP And this dated the 8” of January 03, this is the command 10 summary
we've been talking about isn’t it
cp Um hah, yeah go on
MP Is that the command 10
cP Yeah
MP Yeah okay, now and it’s attached to this little piece of paper here
cP Yeah
MP Which is called a
cP Positive revaluation
MP That's right which is called a
MP/CP P4833
cP. Yeah
MP And as you can see it's datestamped the 8" of January 03
cP Yeah
MP . And there's your office code in there, there's week 41
cP That's right yeah
MP And that's the revaluation figure we've just talked about
cP Okay yeah
MP: * That you send up the road
cP Um hah
MP And if there's any commission you send that up the road as well
cP That's correct yeah ‘
MP Good, now do these get sent away up the road
cp Yes .
MP ; And do you produce two at the office, two copies of this lot the command
10
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cp Well that one’s come out the office
MP Hah
cp . presume that one’s out from the office and the other one goes to
Chesterfield j
MP ° Right so in your stores there should be copies of these command 10's
and this summary form should there
cP There should be yes
MP Okay right, let's
cP I mean
MP Have a look at the command 10 right
cP Yeah .
MP A little way down here it says cash held
cP Yeah .
MP £107,005.30 yeah
cP Yep, Um hah
MP So that's saying that the total monetary value in sterling of currency held
in the office
cP No in the Bureau office
MP. In the Bureau
cP , Cause there's separate till for the Bureau
MP Yeah, yeah that’s what I mean
cP Yeah ,
MP In the Bureau till
cP In the Bureau till
“) MP I'm not talking about all the other cash which is on the,counters and in
your safe .
cP Well yeah but in the safe I also have foreign currency as well
MP You have foreign currency in the safe ,
cp Yeah
MP That's the AM stock is it ..
cP AM stock and put some in the side there or bulk stuff
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MP Okay right, so that's the value, cash, cash
cP Yep
MP Cash held, £107,005.30
cP Yeah
MP And below that you see the revaluation 737.79 which is what you
reported to Chesterfield yeah
cP Yeah okay
MP That's the figure you put onto your cash account isn't it this £107,005.30
. yeah
33:13 cP That goes in the Bureau and there's also one in the foreign currency as
well
MP No
cP There's, that's, that’s the figure in the Horizon on the Bureau till
MP Yes
cP And there’s one on the AM till as well
MP Right, this £107,000 is that the figure you feed into Horizon so that it
appears on the cash account
cP Yeah but you've got that one on Horizon on the Bureau and I've had
some foreign currency in the AM stock as well, so your cash held would
be that plus that
MP You know where I’m going with this don’t you
cP No I don't
MP Okay, so shouldn't that figure 107,000 relate to all of the foreign
currency you hold in the office whether it's in the Bureau till or in your
safe
cP No just the, just the Bureau till that's all
MP Why's that
cP Because that's what's in the Bureau till, anything I pre count is in the AM
stock
MP Is it
cP Yes
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MP Oh tight, why do you do that
cP Because it's already pre counted so case “comes in
that’s already pre counter, there you go
MP So how do you, how do you account for that in your cash account, do
you include that as just normal, normal sterling
cP No should be in as foreign currency
MP But that’s what I’m saying if it’s in Foreign currency, on the cash account
that’s the figures you have to declare isn't it ,
cP No, that weekly summary sheet there is for the Bureau till
MP Yes, yes I understand that
cP Yeah .
MP Yeah but that's also the figure, if I show you a cash account
cP Yep
MP I'll show you the cash account relating to that week, week 41, this is it,
this is exhibit sorry, MP/19
cP Yep
MP There we are cash account week 41 yeah
cP Okay
MP Week ending 8" of the first 2003
cP Um hah
MP If we have a look at table number 5 which is the cash, stock etc. in hand
cP Um yeah
MP At line 50 we, it shows £106,321.42
cP Cash
MP As cash
cP Um hah
MP And the one we're interested in line'52
cP Is 389
MP Is £389,005.30
cp Whichis
MP Hang on, point 30 which is foreign currency sterling equivalent yeah
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cP Um hah .
MP So, what, how have you got that figure, 389
cP Cause of that plus the stuff the stock I had in AM
MP In your AM \
cP Yes
MP Right
cp And that's what! GRO I
MP That's what he had
cP The week after
\ MP So he would have had (indistinguishable) 200 and what is it 107, er 282,
282,000
CP . 282,000 yeah
MP Would it that's what he had
cP He would have roughly about 282
MP Because that’s strange because that 282,000 right, when the auditor's
went in on the 14”
cP Um hah
MP Of January
cP Yeah
MP After you had been arrested, they started their audit didn’t they
cP Um hah
MP Right and when of the gentlemen from the audit was assigned to
. balance AM stock
cP Yeah okay
MP So he starts balancing AM stock, he pulls out a printout right, he pulls
out this printout here which is his exhibit KO/01 :
cP Yeah
MP Which is a balance snap shot at 08:19 14.01.2003
cP Yeah okay
MP And on it, on this, this is the AM stock yeah
cP Um hah
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MP On it it shows foreign currency sterling equivalent “282,000.00
cP Yeah
MP Which is exactly what we're talking about isn't it
cP Yeah
MP So in your safe there should have been £282,000.00 worth of foreign
currency ; .
cP Well no because Mr! } would have had it wouldn't he
MP When, when did he have that
cP Well whenever the, he had, he had the cheque for it 278
MP No when did he have that because on the 13" the day before he
: presented four cheques and 360,000
cP He might have it the week before like I told you
MP But on the week before is the 7” and we've got those two cheques
because they've been stopped as well
cP - Yeah, what are you trying to say
MP Well where was that money
cP
gave him the, put that cheque for the money to go
MP Okay, so you're safe didn't have this £282,000.00 in it, right so why have
you then declared £389,005.30 on your cash account because clearly
you gave it away last week:to Mri.
+ I CP well I've got a cheque there for 278,000 to
cover that
MP But you sold him more euros on the back of that so you can't cover it on
that as well can you, you can't have it both ways Carl
cP No but I've got a cheque there for 278,000 which he gave me for the
euros which came out that till
MP Right, have you been inflating your cash accounts Mr Page
cP No .
MP Are you sure
cP Yes
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MP Alright, lets move on then Carl because what I want to show you now is
schedule MP/6 okay, what I’ve done I've gone through all of the till
receipts okay
cP Um hah
MP And I’ve gone through them: and I've found all of the declared values for
: the command 10's yeah
cP Yeah
MP Which is the figure which should be reported onto the cash accounts
cP Yeah
MP I've then looked at what you've declared on the cash accounts yeah
cP Yeah .
MP . And then we come up with if there's any discrepancies yeah
cP Okay
MP This is schedulé MP/6 right, starting backwards Carl, gt of the first 03
which is week 41 .
cP Yeah
MP Alright, the one we've just talked about
cP - . Um hah:
MP There's your cash.on hand figure that you've declared 106,000, there’s
the figures you declared as 389,005.30 as foreign currency on hand
; cP Um
39:20 MP Right and that’s the actual value on the command 10 which should have
j been used
cp Yeah but I’ve got stuff in stock
MP There's the difference £282,000 .
cP Yeah
MP Right, if you have a look and Ive seen you scan it already, if you have a
. look at every. :
cP (indistinguishable) scan
MP Every single week previously Carl
cP Yeah .
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MP You're quoting two different figures Carl
cP One on the Bureau
MP The week before
cP And one in the AM stock
MP Well you can’t do can you, how can you because it either has to be
included as foreign currency or cash
cP Well it is, that is including the foreign currency, I mean if, did you have a
4 for that 278,000
‘ MP \_haven't seen one, you couldn't tell me when it was could you, it's not on
my schedule, I don't know whether it existed or not Carl
cP Well what do you mean by that
MP Well I don’t know whether you did give him euros on that cheque or not,
it’s only what you're saying, I haven't found any evidence of it, is that
what you're saying
40:08 cP Yeah
. MP Because he seems to suggest that he only gave you those cheques for
the bounced cheques, he didn't tell me about any euros he's had, but
that's a different point Carl, can you explain why you're declaring
different figures every week, if you go back
4 cP Yeah ‘
MP Right, week 40
cP So you're saying, hold on
MP You declare 299,157.71 that was your foreign currency on hand
cP Yeah
MP And in fact the Forde moneychanger, the command 10 actually shows
19,157.71 and that's a inflation of £280,000
cP Yeah cause the money's in the AM stock
MP Well how can it be
cP Are you, hold, hold on a minute you're telling me that I've got 280 odd
thousand pound
MP I don’t know what you've done with 280 odd thousand pounds Carl, it
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can’t clearly be in the AM stock Carl because if it's in the AM stock
you're either, you're either going to declare it as cash or you're going to
declare it as foreign currency
cP Yeah, I declare it as foreign currency, if you look through all the
MP Well if you've declared it as foreign currency why is it not, well it is in this
figure
cP It is there .
“MP Right but it’s not in your command figure, your command 10 figure is it
cP No .
MP Because that’s, the command 10 figure is what feeds that that figure
cP But I just put it in bulk in AM so it's easy enough for me to count so I
_ know how much he's going to get
MP Okay
cP I mean it’s, it’s just a simple
MP Well the way it looks Carl is that you've been, you've been cooking the
books really haven't you Carl, right because let's go back
cP Well no, excuse me but Mr: “js saying that he’s had this
foreign money of me right
MP No he’s not, which money,
cP He has
MP which money
cP He's had 278,000
MP Well that’s not what he tells us now
CPT cesecseeceesnnnennensness ;
MP if you go back to erm ,if you go back to when the auditors came in
cP Yeah
MP Which is this week there
cP Yep
MP 26" of June 02 okay your cash figure you were declaring on hand shoed
a figure of £211,286.54
cP Um hah
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MP And you were showing a foreign currency figure on hand of £85,179.00
cP Um hah
MP If you look prior to that you know going up the, going backwards you can
see the currency on hand figures are quite low aren't they
cP Yeah
MP’ And which equate to command 10 figures
cP That's right yeah
MP Right, but if you look at your cash on hand declared, they're very high
figures
ia cP Yeah
MP I mean here we are look, week 6 365,000
cP But as you consume, but you can see Mr; the amount of
euros he’s having of me per week, I would need to keep that much in
stock
MP Why do you need to keep cash in hand for him when he pays you by
cheque and you're ordering euros and giving him euros, why would you
have sterling cash, that cash on hand figure is not anything to do with
foreign currency
cP No that there, I mean I ‘had that in stock and I was told to reduce it
dramatically and I did do
MP Right, well you didn’t actually because this little highlighted figure here,
you, you were contacted by the ONCH people weren't you, the Matrix
team many times
cP Yeah
MP Saying Carl you've got, you're holding too much cash
cp Yeah, yeah okay-
MP Please return it
cP So I did
MP And they even rang you up didn't they and they said Carl please return it
we're making provisions for a vehicle to come and collect it on the
Thursday and
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cP - No they came on, no they came on the Friday and they came to pick up
on the Friday and I wasn't there
MP Right
cP The reason why I wasn’t there was cause my,
MP ” Okay :
cP And the area manager was informed
MP Fine, okay and as result of which, the, Stephen Cartwright and RLM
covering for the
cP He came out and (indistinguishable) 160K
MP And REM'd out 160K didn't he
cP Yeah
MP However, if you have a look Carl, shortly after that these inflations start
on the Forde moneychanger and the foreign currency
cP Yeah .
MP And the cash values that you hold go done .
cP Yeah
MP You see I think what you've been doing Carl and those figures
demonstrate it, is that you've been inflating your cash for quite some
time, I'd say more than a year probably two years or so, I don't know
what you've done with the money, maybe you've jointly, joined up with
cP (laughing)
MP But because you were hassled by the ONCH people about the high
value of Cash you had on hand
cP Yeah
MP And because they came and physically removed 160K from your safe
cP Yeah
MP Right, you had to find another way of hiding the shortage
cP But I've been audited twice since then haven't!
MP You have and there was a problem on (Buzzer sounds) the 26" wasn't
there, because that’s, there was a problem with the Bureau on the 26”
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cP That wasn’t down to me, when I got called in again by Mr Jim Coney,
they showed me, they phoned me and said there's a surplus of 32,000
MP Yeah
cP Well if you look at the cash account it shows a surplus doesn't it
MP It does on that week, but the difference is they haven't look at this, they
have looked at the difference in what you've been declaring on the Forde
moneychanger and what's actually on the bottom copy receipts, for them
to do that they would have to take the till roles away Carl, they clearly
didn't because I've got them
cP Yeah .
MP And I got them on the 13", so they wouldn't know would they, how would
they know"
cP Well I wouldn’t know, I’m not an auditor am I
MP No
cp But you're turn round and telling me now I'm cooking the books for what
£282,000, he’s had the money of me right
MP When, when did he have, this tapes about to finish Carl
cP Okay
MP I think we better sign up the form, tape seal 058040, just on the top there
please Carl, Mr Farrington
46:15 MP Right the time know then being 18:48 hours I'm suspending this
interview.
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