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The Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry
Friday, 8 November 2024
(10.00 am)
MR STEVENS: Good morning, sir. Can you see and hear us?
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: I know I'm having difficulty hearing you,
Mr Stevens. Try again?
MR STEVENS: Sir, can you see or hear us?
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Now I can hear you, faintly.
MR STEVENS: We'll take a break fora moment. I'l just
turn my back
Sir, can you see and hear us now?
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes.
MR STEVENS: Excellent. Sir, we will be hearing from the
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Services,
‘Small Business and Exports.
GARETH THOMAS MP (sworn)
Questioned by MR STEVENS
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: I'm very sorry, Mr Stevens, but I just
about made out what Mr Thomas said, but itis difficult
at the moment.
MR STEVENS: Right. Minister, if I could ask you to say
your full name, please, and see if that works.
‘A. My full name is Gareth Thomas.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: I can hear Mr Thomas better than you now.
Anyway, I can hear you both so let's carry on
MR STEVENS: That's no bad thing, sir.
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A. do see a signature and it is my signature.
Q. Can you confirm, subject to that one correction, that
the contents of that statement are true to the best of
your knowledge and belief?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Thank you. That stands as your evidence in the Inquiry.
It will be published on the website shortly and I'm just
going to ask you a few questions about it, starting with
your background. You've been the Member of Parliament
for Harrow West since 1 May 1997?
A. Thatis correct.
Q._You served under the Blair and Brown governments holding
various ministerial roles. Not in chronological order:
in the Department for International Development, you
served as Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State and
Minister of State?
Yes.
oP
You also served as Parliamentary Under-Secretary of
State in the Department for Business, Enterprise and
Reform —
Yes —
-- Regulatory Reform, sorry?
Yes, they overlapped for a period.
prop
That is the predecessor department to the Department
you're now in?
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Minister, thank you for attending the Inquiry today
and thank you for providing a written statement to which
I wish to tum now. It should be in a bundle of
documents in front of you. Do you have that? Tab A2,
it should be.
Yes.
You'll see it's dated 24 September 2024, top right. For
the record, the reference number is WITN11490100.
Before I ask you to turn to the signature page,
I understand there's a small correction you wish to
make. We don't need to have it on the screen.
Sir, it's page 5, paragraph 22.
You say on 30 July 2024, the Secretary of State
announced the launch of the Horizon Convictions Redress
Scheme, and you then say:
*... Secretary of State oral statement to the House
of Commons on 30 July 2024."
I understand you wish to change “oral statement" to
“written statement"?
Correct. That's correct, sir.
If I could ask you just to speak up slightly.
Sorry, you're right. That's the correct change I need
to make.
Could you please tum to page 8 of your statement. Do
you see a signature?
Correct.
When you were Under-Secretary of State in that
Department, did you have any involvement in postal
affairs?
Only in a very marginal way. There was at one point
consideration being given to legislation on the
future ~ legislation about the future of the Post
Office, and I was potentially involved in part of that
legislation, but that legislation was relatively quickly
dropped. And so I didn't have any ~- I didn't have any
day-to-day responsibility for the Post Office. I would
have simply been involved in that legislation, but
that's - but on a day-to-day basis I was not involved
in any way in the — in responsibilities for the Post
Office.
When you were in that Department, did you have any
discussion with another minister or civil servant about
the Horizon issues?
No.
Whilst in opposition, you held various Shadow Cabinet
appointments?
Not Shadow Cabinet but shadow ministerial jobs, yes.
Shadow ministerial, apologies. You were appointed as
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State this year after
the general election?
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The Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry
Iwas.
I'm going to go slightly out of order with a few matters
but I'm going to start with Government policy. The
Inquiry has been told previously that the Government's
policy is to provide full, fair and prompt compensation.
Do you agree, as suggested in Carl Creswell’s evidence
to this Inquiry this week, that Government policy now
elevates promptness of compensation over fullness and
fairness?
No, I don't, We are ~- I'm acutely aware of the
responsibility to try and speed up getting compensation
out to the victims of the Horizon scandal but I'm also
very clear that we want it to be full and fair
compensation that's paid ~ that is paid out. So we
have tried to introduce a number of reforms and measures
that will help to speed up getting redress out to the
victims of the scandal, such as the introduction of
fixed-sum payments, but we're also very clear that each
victim's circumstances will be different and that, if
they don't feel that the fixed-sum payment is.
an accurate reflection of their case, in terms of the
redress that they think they're entitled to, then they
have the option of going through the full -- through the
full process.
Certainly, in the case of, for example, of the
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commitments was to ensure that justice and compensation
are delivered as swiftly as possible for every
subpostmaster caught up in the Horizon scandal."
You refer to your ministerial portfolio, saying:
“... work to support the victims of the Horizon
scandal, accelerate fair compensation, and improve the
position of subpostmasters over the long-term, is at the
top of my agenda.”
If we go down to paragraph 20, please, it's on
page 5:
“Since coming into Government we have already made
a number of positive steps to accelerate and improve the
process of providing redress to postmasters, and we are
exploring additional options for the delivery of fair
and timely compensation to those affected.”
I think, but I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, at
paragraph 22, middle of the paragraph, you say:
“Because the post masters whose convictions were
overtumned in this way were not eligible for
compensation under the Overturned Convictions
compensation scheme, it was clearly necessary to create
a new scheme to provide full and fair compensation to
them.”
I think that “full” there is the only time you refer
to “full and fair compensation". So from your evidence
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Horizon Shortfall Scheme, we're also bringing in
an additional process, an appeals process, to make sure
that people also have that option to test whether
they've been given a full and fair settlement. But just
to underline, I met with a number of subpostmasters who
were victims of the scandal, and all of them have
stressed to me their entirely understandable frustration
with the pace of redress. I think we have begun to see
an increase in redress, but I wouldn't want to in any
way suggest that there aren't still problems. Many
complex cases are still to be settled.
So we are trying to -- we are looking at what else
we can do to speed up consideration of those cases but
making sure that people get a full and fair settlement
in that process too.
I'm going to come to how the Government seeks to
implement the policy objectives later. Just focusing on
the policy itself for now, please could we bring up your
statement, page 3, paragraph 15.
My apologies, Mr Stevens, is it going to appear on the
screen?
Yes, it's coming.
Page 3, paragraph 15, please.
So you say:
“One of the Labour Government's key manifesto
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earlier, do we take it that the Government policy stil
maintains full, fair and prompt compensation?
Yes, sir.
Again, I ask you to reiterate that promptness isn't
being prioritised over fullness and faimess?
No. No. Itisn't. I absolutely want to make sure that
every victim has a proper chance to secure for
themselves full and fair compensation. But, as,
I alluded to earlier, I'm acutely conscious of how long
many of the victims of the Horizon scandal have been
waiting for that full and fair compensation. And it's
why I think it's a particular responsibility for me to.
look at ways to speed up the process, but not at the
expense of the delivery of full and fair compensation.
Have you discussed with Mr Creswell or others in the
Department this issue of full and fair still being on
an equal footing with promptness of compensation?
I believe Mr Creswell gave evidence either yesterday or
the day before. I've not had the chance to speak to him
since he gave evidence but I have certainly, in the
guidance that I've given to officials about the
direction of policy, been clear that we wanted to look
at ways to speed up the process, but that — absolutely
that we expected that not to be at the expense of full
and fair payment.
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So having, I think, listened to or at least been aware
of Mr Creswell’s evidence, what steps are you going to
take, if any, to set out what the Government's policy
message is to those within the Department on
compensation?
Well, I talked to officials about the compensation
schemes and the way in which they are working, and the
efforts we need to take in relation to getting full and
fair compensation out the door every week, and certainly
I will be speaking to that team of -- those team of
officials next week.
Were you aware or had you understood that the Minister
before you had prioritised promptness over full and fair
compensation?
I was not aware of that. When we were in opposition
before the election, I did not have responsibility for
Post Office in the Shadow Ministerial Team. I had
responsibility for trade. So that was the issue, the
details of which I was focusing on. I was not focusing
on the details of what ministers on the -- who had
responsibility for the Post Office were doing at that
time. Others in the team had that responsibility.
I said I would take things out of order, I want to go.
back in the chronology somewhat and I've been asked to
ask you some questions on your time as Shadow Minister.
9
signatory, offering a meeting. One has taken us up —
Gareth Thomas who represents Harrow for Labour.”
Do you remember meeting representatives of the Post
Office to discuss the Early Day Motion
Ihave to be honest with you, I don't. When I -- when
this was sent through in the additional bundle of
evidence that I might be asked questions about, I asked
my Parliamentary office whether we could go back and see
if we could find a recollection of the meeting, and our
records don't go back that far. It's quite possible
that I did meet with Mr Davies as a courtesy.
I think — believe that my name did not come off
that Early Day Motion, and I certainly have continued to
work with the Communications Workers Union, who I take
seriously, since then, and have continued to engage ~
or continued to engage in the issues around Horizon from
a constituency perspective in the time since.
But, as we have alluded to in some of your previous
questions, I didn't have day-to-day responsibility for
the Post Office in my brief. So the engagement on what
was happening was more occasional.
I want to go back to your role now, please. Please
could we have up the witness statement page 3,
paragraph 13. You set out the responsibilities for your
role, we see Post Office is third and then we have
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Yes.
Please could we bring up POLO0232597. It's an email
from Mark Davies who was Communications and Corporate
Affairs Director at Post Office to your email address on
11 September 2015. He said:
"Dear Gareth
"You may remember me from my days working as Jack
Straw's [Special Adviser]. I hope you are well.”
Did you remember Mark Davies at that time?
Yes, when he was at the Home Office he was Special
Adviser to Jack Straw, the Home Secretary, and I was
Parliamentary Private Secretary to Charles Clarke, who
was the Minister of State for Police. So there were
‘occasions when our paths crossed, yes.
You see it refers to you signing an Early Day Motion
about Post Office and the Horizon system and asks to
meet with you to discuss these issues if you're able to.
You were sent a letter subsequently to that, which
I don’t need to take you to. The next email I want to
take you to, please, is POL00233120. It will be on the
screen shortly. You won't have seen this email. It's
an internal Post Office one. You see Patrick Bourke at
the top, to Angela van den Bogerd and Mark Davies, on
22 September 2015. It says:
"Mark and his team have written to every single
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a number of other responsibilities as well, including
Ukraine reconstruction, export strategy, local growth,
small businesses. Quite significant matters within your
portfolio, yes?
They are, yes.
In your statement, you refer to Post Office issues of
being at the top of your agenda. In practical terms,
what does that mean with such a wide ranging portfolio?
In practical terms, I think in the ~ what is it now,
almost four months since I've been in post, I would
think about 50 per cent of my time has been spent on
matters to do with the Post Office. I think - I am
continually or on ~ certainly on a weekly basis talking
to officials about what else we can do to improve the
system of redress. Certainly, I identified, when I got
into office, quite early on that there were three
significant issues around the Post Office that I needed
to grip.
One was around the redress scheme, which we've
touched on already, and how do you speed up the delivery
of redress to the victims of the scandal; secondly was
to look at whether there were gaps in the compensation
process and, if so, what could we do about that; then
thirdly, to look at some of the issues around the future
of the Post Office as well.
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The Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry
So the Post Office has been a very significant part
of the day-to-day responsibilities to date.
During Phases 5 and 6 of the Inquiry, we heard evidence
of subpostmasters, Members of Parliament and the press
writing to your predecessor ministers raising concerns
about Horizon, and we heard how the Department would
often refer the correspondence back to the Post Office.
We've heard evidence from past ministers stating that
ministers can't involve themselves in running the Post
Office on a day-to-day basis.
In broad terms, summary terms, how interventionist
in Post Office matters will you be as Post Office
Minister if concems are raised with you about how
subpostmasters are being treated by the Post Office?
The honest truth is I'm not sure I can give a completely
clear answer to that. It will depend on the questions
that I get asked. But, you know, I get written to by
Members of Parliament and by victims of the scandal
direct, and I try to make sure that I give as full
a reply as I can do to concerns that are put to me about
individual cases, albeit, quite rightly, ministers can't
get involved in individual cases.
But wherever I can make a difference, I'm determined
to try and make a difference, in terms of the delivery
of redress. So I have been pushing senior officials in
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and to ask questions about that advice, and to challenge
my officials to make sure I've got as full and accurate
a picture as I can get.
I believe I've been getting that advice, that I have
a good team of officials working for me, but it's my job
to challenge them and to push them and, as I say, I am
doing that on a ~ certainly on a weekly basis and often
on a daily basis.
I want to look at some of the schemes now, starting with
HSS please. I want to look at the form itself that
postmasters have to fill in. The YouGov survey — we
don't need to have it on screen -- carried out by the
Inquiry ~ or sorry, YouGov carried it out on behalf of
the Inquiry -- found that 47 per cent of postmasters who
took the survey found the application hard to
understand; 19 per cent found it very hard to
understand; 57 per cent found the paperwork hard to
complete; 26 per cent found it very hard. Simon
Recaldin gave evidence to this Inquiry on Monday that
Post Office had simplified the application form.
Do you or the Department have plans to oversee
whether these simplifications have a positive effect on
the HSS?
I certainly hope so. We've seen more
Sorry, you say you hope so. Does that mean you don't
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the Department to allocate extra resources, in
particular to help us speed up delivery of compensation
to the victims of the GLO -- in the GLO scheme because
there are some complex cases there that have been very
long running, in terms of compensation not being
delivered. And I hope we will see significant progress,
as a result of measures we've taken very soon.
We are actively looking, actively pushing officials
to look at some gaps in the compensation schemes that
we've been -- that we have identified, partly in
response to people who have written in via their MP or
whose MPs have raised it with us, but also through
conversations with officials about what is working and
what isn't working in the redress schemes.
The Inquiry has also heard evidence about issues of flow
of information from the Post Office into the Government,
and then also from Civil Service to ministers. How do
you satisfy yourself that the information you receive is
full and accurate?
I meet with my officials on the Post Office, as I say,
on a weekly basis. On occasions it's been on a daily
basis, where there have been issues and where I've had
concems about or questions about submissions or
individual cases that have come forward. So I think
it's my responsibility to ask for advice from officials
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know, or —
Yes, I would want to ~ I beg your pardon. I would want
to check that we are seeing more victims coming forward
and that they are more confident in their ability to put
in claims for redress. The -- one of the reasons for
wanting to put in an appeals process into HSS is also to
make sure there's that additional step for
subpostmasters applying for compensation under the
Horizon Shortfall Scheme to have their claims fully and
fairly judged and to be confident in that process.
Would the Department consider liaising or consulting
with claimant representatives, the NFSP and
subpostmaster groups, on how the changes to the form
have either benefited or negatively affected the process
under the HSS?
Yes, absolutely. I'd be very happy for that process.
We already have conversations with claimants’ lawyers
about how schemes are working, and where we can make
improvements, discussed recently with ~ very directly
as a minister to one of the key claimant's lawyers, the
need to get them in the room with my officials to talk
through where else we might be able to find improvements
to the running of the Horizon Shortfall Scheme and we're
hoping to set that conversation up very soon.
Could we look, please, at -- well, actually we don't
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need to look at it on screen. I'll read it. At page 5
of your statement, paragraph 21, you say:
“On 25 July 2024 I gave my approval to the
introduction of fixed-sum awards of 75,000 under the
Horizon Shortfall Scheme.”
You go on to say how the Secretary of State went on
to formally approve that matter. Can we look, please,
at the submission to you, it's BEIS0000888. If we could
start at page 5, please
You see this is an email --it's not on the screen,
but you can take it from me this email was sent on
22 July 2024, and it says:
“Hi Jamie, Jason ..."
It refers to the fact this is to the 75,000 fixed
sum:
“This is for consideration by Minister Thomas and
and Secretary of State.”
We can see it says
“Timing: We would be grateful for a swift readout.
Post Office has received regular correspondence from
postmasters awaiting ... the £75,000 fixed sum following
the March announcement and we expect it to be raised
during next week's redress announcement."
Then the recommendation is at the bottom, it
recommends to:
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through, reflect your recollection of how this was
discussed, namely you had the submission, had a meeting
to discuss a), b), c), d), e) and then on the Thursday
you agreed to those recommendations, including a), b),
©).
I believe so.
If we go back, please, to page 6. So with the fixed
cost award, the idea being that if the subpostmaster
comes along and, if their loss, actually, as a matter of
fact is £500 they still get an offer of £75,000 and they
can accept that; is that a fair summary?
Certainly, if people believe they've been victims and
have suffered a loss, then they can come forward and
accept the fixed sum.
Now what were you told about b), capping awards at
£50,000, where postmasters reject the fixed sum and are
offered a lower amount?
I might need to -- I apologise, Mr Stevens, I might need
to write to the Inquiry about this because we certainly
looked at the question of capping awards at 50k but,
ultimately, if 'm remembering rightly, did not ~ did
not bring that in. But I can't recall the —
immediately to hand the detail about that, so I might
need to write to the Inquiry with further information on
that.
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“[Implement] your predecessors’ announcement to
introduce a Fixed Sum ..."
Then over the page, thank you.
Now, (b) and (c), (b) says:
"Capping awards at £50k where postmasters reject the
Fixed Sum and are offered a lower amount, with no option
to retum to the Fixed Sum.
c) Not providing legal advice to claimants to
consider the offer of a Fixed Sum."
I'm going to ask you about those in a moment but
just so we can see the chronology, if we go to page 4,
please, this is an email of the following day, 23 July.
It says:
*... the Minister had reviewed and has asked if
an official will be free to discuss options B, C and D
in more detail on Thursday at 1.30."
Then, if we go to page 2, please. A little bit
further down, thank you. This is an email on Thursday,
25 July. It says:
“Thank you for attending the meeting today — for
the benefit of the chain, the Minister was content with
recommendations a), b), c) and e) in the sub", and goes,
on to say about the delay which you'd rejected.
'm going to ask you about the detail of those
matters but does that summary there, the email we went
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I mean, let's just explore it slightly. What it seems
on its face is, whether or not it was brought in, if
a postmaster didn't accept the fixed award of 75,000,
they went to an assessment, and the assessment was that
the loss was £65,000, on b) it looks like their award
would have been capped at 50,000. Is that your
recollection of the policy proposal?
As I say, I think I'd just want to check that and write
to the Inquiry and write back to you.
When can the Inquiry expect a response on that?
I will get a letter to you next week.
‘SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Mr Stevens, I'm sorry to interrupt but
I'm still having some difficulty with the sound and
obviously this is an important point that you're
covering. So, if we may, I'd like to take a short break
because I'm told by RTS that they can't fix my sound
problem without there being a short break in the
hearing
MR STEVENS: Of course.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: I hope that doesn't inconvenience you too
much, Mr Thomas, but I'm anxious to hear every word on
this particular topic, all right?
MR STEVENS: Thank you, sir.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Can we break for at least ten minutes and
then I will liaise with RTS as to whether I should
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disconnect and start again, or what's to be done, all
right?
MR STEVENS: Yes, thank you, sir.
(10.35 am)
(A short break)
(10.48 am)
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: (Muted)
MR STEVENS: We can see you but can't hear you
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: I omitted to unmute myself!
MR STEVENS: That's a relief, sir, I will carry on.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: You're as clear as a bell, if I may say
0, now.
MR STEVENS: Excellent. Can we please bring back the
document we were looking at just before the break,
that's perfect. Thank you
Minister, I want to continue on b). I hear what you
say about writing a letter. The Inquiry will always
welcome further clarification or further evidence. This
was a document exhibited to your witness statement.
A. Yes.
Q._Itconcerns a meeting that took place on 25 July 2024,
where that was discussed. Subject to any clarification
you wish to make, I would like to know what your
recollection is of this. I said before what it appears
on its face is that, if a subpostmaster rejected the
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jeopardy that Government clearly want to put in place to
say, 'You've got an opportunity of £75,000, but if you
don't believe that's sufficient, there's a risk that
once the case has gone through the full assessment, the
risk you face is it might be less’.”
Now, just to be clear, he wasn't talking about this
cap at that point, just the general principle of the
fixed-cost offer, which may then be reduced on
assessment.
Does that fairly summarise the Government's position
that it's seeking to put jeopardy on subpostmasters to
accept the offer of £75,000?
A. No, I don't think it does. I think we want to offer
a quicker route to get redress, which is why we've
offered the fixed-sum payment of £75,000 here, and
indeed £600,000 in the HCRS scheme. We're very clear
that every victim's circumstances are different and so,
if they want their claim to be judged on its own
individual merits, that they can go through a longer,
more detailed process, and we're putting in place the
appeals process in the Horizon Shortfall Scheme to give
claimants the opportunity, as well, to have the offers
that are made to them reviewed independently as well.
Q._C)is not providing legal advice to claimants to
consider the offer of the fixed sum. I want to explore
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fixed-sum offer of £75,000, went to an assessment, the
assessment was the loss was £65,000, the award would be
capped at £50,000, so what would be given would be less
than the award.
Now, is that position correct; is that how b) was
explained to you?
As I said to you, I think I will reflect on the
questions and write to you on that. My — the intention
around the 75k fixed-sum settlement was - and we looked
in reaching that figure, we looked at a range of claims
that had come in, and sought to offer what would be
a sum that we thought would help --
I'm just going to interrupt you, Minister, because
that's a different matter. Is it your evidence that you
cannot recollect what was said to you about point b)?
I's — I would want to just reflect on that question
and write to you.
Again, Minister, I ask: do you have no recollection of
what was ~ as I say, you can clarify if you wish.
I don't have a detailed recollection at this particular
point, so I will write to you on that, if I may.
Simon Recaldin gave evidence to this Inquiry on Monday.
For the record it's 152, line 8 of the transcript, and
what he said was this:
"I think it's consistent and it supports the
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that a bit. The document can come down while we do so.
On Monday, Simon Recaldin agreed that those
postmasters who paid for legal representation to
complete the application were more likely to claim
consequential losses and an interim payment. Did you
hear that evidence?
I didn't see his evidence, no.
Did you know that when you made the decision on the
£75,000 offer and not providing legal advice?
We believed that there's -- I believe that there were
opportunities for people to get advice as to whether or
not they want to accept the offer. And -- but we wanted
to try and make the process as quick for people if
that's the route they wanted to go down. If they wanted
a fuller hearing, then that opportunity exists. But
for - but we believe that many people would want
a quick settlement and that, on balance, we felt the
£75,000 fixed-sum payment would help with that process.
Itwas A slightly different question I asked, which was:
when you made the decision about funding of legal
advice, were you aware that postmasters who paid for
legal representation to complete the form were more
likely to claim consequential losses and an interim
payment?
I don't believe I was specifically aware of that - that
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particular evidence at that point.
What does that tell you, that subpostmasters who pay for
legal representation are more likely to claim
consequential losses and an interim payment?
I think, as I say, what I wanted to do was to make sure
that there is a route for people to get quick
compensation, if that's the route they want to take.
But also, that if people want a fuller look at their
circumstances, absolutely, that has to be there, and
then, if people want that offer to them to be reviewed
by an independent process, that needs to be there as
well.
Sorry to interrupt because the point we're making here
is less about that; it's more about the decision as to
whether or not to accept the offer or go down the route
of an assessment. The decision has been made not to
fund legal representation at that stage.
ask the question again: if Simon Recaldin says
that postmasters who pay for legal representation at the
point of completing the form, that they were more likely
to claim consequential losses and an interim payment,
what does that tell you about legal representation for
those subpostmasters?
Well, I suppose what I would say, sir, in answer to that
question, sir, is that I think people have a choice, if
25
applicants to obtain legal advice on the offer. Do you
follow me? So forget fixed offers for the moment.
Prior to that, if the HSS scheme offered me £20,000,
shall we say, I would be entitled to get some money
from -- well, ultimately, the Government, no doubt, but
let’s say Post Office, for the sake of argument, in
order to obtain some legal advice on whether I should
accept that offer. Okay? I think I've got that right.
Now, what is slightly ~ well, forget adjectives.
Why is it not the case, if itis the case, that the
same doesn't apply to the fixed offer, ie once an offer
is made, ie the fixed offer, why isn't it the case that
someone should be able to say, "I'd like to take legal
advice about whether I should accept that offer"; do you
follow the point I'm trying to make?
I do follow the point you're trying to make, Sir Wyn.
I mean, I think I will reflect separately after this
Inquiry about that particular point. My immediate
answer to you now is that we wanted to provide a process
that was quick, that people who didn't want to go
through a legal process could have their settlement and
redress quickly provided to them but, for anyone who
wants to go a longer process, then yes, that offer is
there and access to legal support is there for them too
for that.
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they want to get legal advice and put a fuller claim in,
on that option is available to them. If they don't want
to go down that route, if they want to settle quickly,
then we think we have offered a fair sum, £75,000, as
a fixed sum, so that they can have even quicker redress.
It's a choice for the individual claimant to make but it
does offer a quicker route than has been available —
has been available to date.
Why has the Government's decision been not to fund that
legal advice on the HSS -- at the application stage,
I should say.
Our instinct was that the £75,000 was a generous offer,
that, for some people, it would be -- would help them to
reach closure more quickly. But we were also clear that
if people, as I say, wanted their case to be heard in
more detail, there is the option of having a process to
do that, which -- and having some of their legal costs
covered as part of that process too.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Can I approach this from a slightly
different angle, Mr Thomas, just so my mind is clear
about it.
My understanding is that, prior to the introduction
of the fixed-term offer -- the fixed offer, not
fixed-term offer, fixed offer ~ once an offer had been
made in HSS, there would be funding available to
26
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: I follow that, for many people, it should
be pretty easy to decide whether to take £75,000 or not
because some people's claim will be much larger and some
people's claim, in reality, will be much smaller, and so
the much smaller ones, I dare say, will ind it quite
easy to know what to do. But we've been debating
a little at the Inquiry those applicants who, if you
like, fall quite close to either side of the £75,000.
Just by way of an example, that's all: if your claim
is worth anything up to £75,000, then it may be easy to
say, "I'l take the £75,000, I don't need a lawyer to
tell me that". But if your claim in your mind is worth
£85,000 or £95,000, which the difference, although not
a vast difference, can be significant for some people,
that's the sort of category of case where you might
think, "Well, shouldn't they be able to at least access
a lawyer to decide as between £75,000 or carrying on"?
I suppose our sense was that there is a balance,
a judgement to make as to where you set the ~ where you
set the amount for an offer of a fixed-sum payment and
our sense was that, on balance, the £75,000 represented
a reasonable line and a reasonable offer to people, if
they wanted to avoid a full, drawn out, as people may
have perceived ~- perceived process.
But that option to go beyond, if they felt their
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claim was worth more than £75,000, is very much still
there. But to try to help speed up the process of
getting redress, we felt offering a fixed-sum payment
was appropriate. The question then, as you rightly say
is, where do you draw the line? Where do you set that
amount? And our sense was the £75,000. On balance,
looking at the claims data we've had up to now come in,
was a reasonable place to put that offer.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: So -- and I'm not trying to put words
into your mouth but it’s just my way of expressing it -~
does it come to this: that by offering £75,000, the
judgement was that most people would find it pretty easy
to decide whether to accept it or not?
A. I think we felt that people would -- that it was ~ that
for many people they would see it as a reasonably
generous offer, given the loss that they had
experienced, and that it was would help them to get
redress more quickly than going through a longer
process. So that was the judgement for us.
What we absolutely didn't want to do was to shut
down the route of people --
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: I follow that, I follow that.
A. Right, okay.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Over to you, Mr Stevens.
MR STEVENS: Thank you, sir. We'll move on to a different
29
and Trade Select Committee when there aren't Inquiry
hearings at which the point can be illustrated?
A. We were -- we inherited -- when we came into office, we
were in a position where both the Business and Trade
Select Committee and the Horizon Compensation Advisory
Board had recommended an appeals process, and we wanted
to confirm that we were willing to go down that route as
quickly as possible, once we looked at the issue.
‘And, obviously, we were conscious that the Inquiry
is happening, and that the ~ there are still many
questions about both the speed and fairness of
compensation that's been paid out to victims of the
Horizon scandal, and having an appeals process in place,
sooner rather than later, would help with that - would
help with the concerns around that. So, yes, we wanted
to make a quick decision that we were going to go down
this route. We are, at the moment, consulting with
claimants’ lawyers and subpostmaster groups about the
detail of what an appeals mechanism will look like in
actuality, but we were keen to give confidence that
an appeals system was coming.
Q. We see there it says about the developing of Government
resourced and administered independent appeals process.
You've described how you're consulting with claimant
groups. Are you able to provide us with an update on
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matter. I'll say now I'm going to look at the appeals
procedure within HSS that you referred to already.
I appreciate some of these details are still to be
worked out. They may need to be announced in
Parliament. I'm simply looking for what the
Government's thinking is at the moment,
In your statement, page 6, paragraph 23, we don't
need to bring it up, you refer to on 25 July this year,
you agreed to the creation of an independent
DBT-administered Horizon Shortfall Scheme appeals
mechanism. I'd like to look, please, at the submission
I's BEIS0000943. I we could go to page 2, please, to
begin with, we see the start of the email is there,
Wednesday, 24 July 2024, and if we go over the page,
please, to the actual submission, thank you. On
"Timing", it says:
“A decision is required urgently to ensure that
an announcement can be made ahead of the next Inquiry
hearings in September, illustrating [His Majesty's
Government's] proactiveness and a willingness to action
the recommendations of the Horizon Compensation Advisory
Board and Business and Trade Select Committee."
Pausing there. Will the Department be both
proactive and willing to action the recommendations of
the Horizon Compensation Advisory Board and the Business
30
the current proposals for who might be eligible to avail
themselves of the appeals scheme?
I am not at this stage, Mr Stevens. We're still working
on that detail. We're having to talk to colleagues
across Government about that but we're keen to give
an update to Parliament soon, but we're still working on
those details.
Can we test one aspect with you, please. I'm going to
go to Hansard, I'm not asking about whether what was
said is accurate, it's just a point of clarification.
It's RLITO000348, please
You see this is from Hansard and it's the Secretary
of State for Business and Trade making a statement on
the 9 September 2024. If we could turn the page,
please. It says second line:
“Today I am pleased to announce that we have
accepted that recommendation’, referring to the appeals
process.
It goes on to say:
“That appeal process will enable claimants who have
settled their claim under the HSS to have their case
reassessed with the benefit of any new information that
they were not able to include in the original
application."
Based on current thinking, are you able to assist
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with whether the scheme will simply allow subpostmasters
to rely on new information, or is it the case that it
will only be open to those who can provide new evidence
or information?
We -- we're listening to the ~ at this stage,
I wouldn't want to give you a direct answer on that.
We're both keen to follow through on the commitment that
we made ~ that the Secretary of State made, but we're
also listening to — talking to claimants’ lawyers and
to subpostmaster groups to try and get right the appeals
process and to make sure that it is a fair appeals
process. Those conversations are taking place at the
moment.
‘So we may have to ask the Secretary of State about what
he meant there. Can you assist us with when you expect
the consultation process on the appeals system to be
finished and that there will be proposals put forward?
As I say, we hope to give an update to Parliament soon
What did you mean by "soon"?
So if not by the end of the year, early in the New Year.
Again, when you say “early in the New Year", that could
be doing a bit of heavy lifting. Are you talking
January or ~
Yes, yeah. If not by the end of -- if not by the end of
this Parliamentary term, then early in January.
33
aclaim.
I want to look at a different topic, but still on the
HSS, and that's the position of Post Office employees
and counter assistants. You're aware that they aren't
covered by the HSS?
I am aware they're not covered by the scheme, and it's
one of the issues that I identified early on as being
one of the gaps in the compensation process. And I'm --
we are actively looking at what we can do to address
that, to address that gap, it's one of the things that
Ihave been asking my officials to do work on, and
asking the Post Office to look at as well. I am not in
a position to give more detail on that but just that we
are actively looking at that issue, as indeed we are at
the family members — family members who were affected
by -- very badly by the Horizon scandal, and who cannot
claim for compensation either.
Do you know when you expect to be briefed on those
matters by your officials?
I ask about those questions on a regular basis
When can we expect a decision from the Government on
those areas, both the family members, as you identified
yourself, and the position of counter assistants?
I can't give you a timetable now but we're working,
we're actively working on those issues. As I say, it
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I want to ask about the term of the scheme, how long it
will last. Have you given any thought to the last date
‘on which applications should be made by?
The Horizon Shortfall Scheme?
Yes.
We have looked at a number of -- we have looked at
a number of options for this. I know this is one of the
early suggestions from the Inquiry. I am reluctant to
set a deadline at this stage for applications to come
forward, partly because we are stil receiving
applications now, and my experience as a constituency MP
was that a constituent who was a victim of the Horizon
scandal only narrowly had their case accepted in the
first stage of the Horizon Shortfall Scheme.
So I am wary of setting a deadline too soon.
I think it is good that people are -- who are victims
are increasingly coming forward and feel confident to do
0, and I think in that sense the continuing publicity
about the work of the Inquiry is helpful in that regard.
I would expect -- or I think it's possible that there
will be further -- there will continue to be people
coming forward, right up until the point at which the
Inquiry publishes its conclusions.
So we are still thinking about what would be the
appropriate time to put in the deadline for putting in
34
was one of the issues that I identified as being
a significant issue for my work to be ~- and that's.
exactly why I'm pushing officials to work on exactly
those issues.
When you say you can't be give a date, do you expect it
to be longer than January 2025?
Mr Stevens, I appreciate that -- I understand why
a question of timing is a significant point that you
want to press me on but I can't be give you a timescale
at this stage.
Moving on to, again, another question about deadiines,
potential deadlines for applications. Have you
considered whether there should be deadlines for other
applications, such as the GLO scheme, or Overturned
Convictions Redress, or is it the same as your answer
for HSS?
On the GLO scheme and the Overturned Convictions Scheme ,
we've been looking at what we can do to speed up
decisions in those cases and officials have been talking
to claimants’ lawyers and looking at the potential
timing of more of those claims coming in. I think we're
reasonably confident that, if claims come in by
Christmas, that welll be able to have made offers of
substantial redress, and paid substantial redress, by
the end of March. Certainly in the GLO scheme.
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And the Overtumed Convictions, Sir Gary
Hickinbottom is actively working again with claimants’
lawyers to help get claims brought forward, and I hope
that we will be seeing further progress, further
progress quickly on getting those sets -- that set of
complex cases dealt with and redress delivered to those
victims too.
I want to turn to some issues on the Post Office Horizon
Offences Act 2024, for brevity I refer to it as the 2024
Act. Section 4 of the 2024 Act imposes a duty on the
Secretary of State to take all reasonable steps to
identify the convictions quashed by the Act.
Mr Creswell gave evidence that this duty was being
discharged by the Ministry of Justice; is that correct?
Yes.
What steps, if any, are you taking, or communications
are you having with your colleagues in the Ministry of
Justice, about the steps that are being taken to
identify people whose convictions have been quashed?
So we have -- I have actively encouraged officials in my
team to talk directly with their counterparts in the
Ministry of Justice, both to underline the need for
speed in identifying those who have been convicted, so
we can begin to get the process of a redress moving
forward, and I have also met with my ministerial
37
I have not yet seen -- I'm not yet in a position to take
a view that the position of the Government in that
regard is wrong but I am looking at that issue.
Section 5 of the 2024 Act deals with the deletion of
cautions for Horizon related offences. Are you able to.
assist with whether persons whose cautions are deleted
under section 5 can apply for compensation under the
HCRS?
I apologise, Mr Stevens. I would need to write to the
Inquiry about that with additional information on that,
and I'm not in a position to give that information to
you right at the moment.
I want to cover another potential gap that was
identified by Mr Creswell, and that's for people who
were prosecuted and acquitted. Have you given any
thought on whether the schemes should be expanded --
when I say the schemes, I'm referring to the HCRS or the
Overtumed Convictions Scheme ~- to include persons
prosecuted but acquitted, so they can obtain the types
of damages associated with malicious prosecution?
I haven't as yet got to that issue but, if the
Inquiry — if the Inquiry gives us a particular steer on
that, I'm very happy to look at that and I'l certainly
reflect on that question after this hearing too.
I want to move to look at corporate governance and
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counterpart in the Ministry of Justice to underline that
point as well, and been given assurances that they are
working at pace, and have a significant team of
officials in place who are trying to do that work as
quickly as they can do.
And I should say, Mr Stevens, as well, obviously
there's work being done to talk to the relevant
authorities in Northern Ireland and in Scotland as well.
Section 1(2)(b) of the 2024 Act states that "Only
convictions for offences that were prosecuted by the CPS
or Post Office were quashed", and the previous
Government's policy was not to include prosecutions
pursued by the Department for Work and Pensions. Does
that position remain the same under your Department now?
Yes, at the moment yes.
Section 5 of the 2024 Act deals with the deletion of
cautions from the Horizon related offences.
I should say ~- sorry, I should say Mr Stevens, on the
DW cases, I am looking at that issue but, at the moment,
our position is, as I stated
When you say you're looking at it, what do you mean?
I've been wanting to -- we have asked at my request the
DWP for information about those cases and about the
robustness of the convictions ~- of the evidence behind
the convictions and, as I say, I'm looking at that.
38
culture, unless you have any further questions, sir, on
compensation?
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: No, thank you.
MR STEVENS: Upon arriving in your role as Minister, what is
your view —- I don't mean across the whole company but,
at least at the Board level ~ of the culture within
Post Office?
It's difficult to be anything other than concemed about
the culture in the Post Office. I welcome the fact that
there is a new team in place and that there is a chance
of starting the process of getting a better culture in
place, one that values subpostmasters, in a way that
quite clearly hasn't been the case in the past. We've
been very clear with the new leadership that their —
increased cooperation with them around redress is going
to be very important going forward.
But we're also looking — want to look in the longer
term, as well, at what else as Government we can do to
improve the culture in the Post Office and that may be
in terms of a different model for how they ~ how the
Post Office is governed, and you'll be aware that we've
made clear that we want to -- we certainly want to hear
the Inquiry's view on that question, but also we will
want to talk to stakeholders, and some of the early
conferences I've had with stakeholders have ~ we've
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begun to have that discussion about how you change the
governance to also lock in improvements to the culture
in the Post Office going forward
But the Post Office is a national asset and I think
the public will want to have ~ be part of that
conversation too, and that is why we're thinking that we
will publish a Green Paper next year, to invite wider
views about the future of the Post Office.
Q._ Just understanding the point of consultation, since you
were appointed as Minister, have you met the Postmaster
Non-Executive Directors?
A. haven't met the Postmaster Non-Executive Directors as
yet. I have met the NFSP, the CWU and Voice of the
Postmaster and I have met a series of individual
subpostmasters who were victims of the Horizon scandal.
Obviously, I've met the Chair of the ~ the new Chair of
Post Office and the new Chief Executive.
Q. We have heard in the Inquiry about the split within the
oversight of Post Office, between UKGI and the Policy
Team within the core department. Who would be leading
on these issues of cultural change within the Post
Office: UKGI or the core department?
A. _Inasense everybody has to play a role in changing the
culture of Post Office, both UKGI, the Post Office
Management Team and Board, and the Department have to
41
Mr Railton
Q. Can you provide us with an update as to where you see
that Strategic Review as being at the moment?
A. So I think -- Mr Railton, I think, hopes to make some
initial progress on implementing his strategic review
soon, the exact timing I don't think has been fully
settled. It's not been fully settled as yet but,
shortly, I would expect there to be progress on that.
Q._ You say, in paragraph 26, it doesn't need to go up:
"We've commissioned independent experts to advise us
on the best model for the Post Office in future.”
Who are those independent experts?
A. So Boston Consulting Group have been ~
Q._ BCG, you are referring to?
A. BCG, yeah
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: How is this going to work? If I've got
it right, Mr Railton told me that he had submitted, in
effect, a Strategic Review to the Department, the
Department itself has commissioned independent experts
and there's going to be a Green Paper next year, and at
least inferentially, you were suggesting that, if the
Inquiry reports within a timescale which permits this,
the Inquiry's recommendations might be taken into
account.
But I'm struggling a bit, Mr Thomas, to understand
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play a role in driving that cultural change and there
are a number of things that I hope we will be able to
see ~ to see begin to happen under the current Board,
but I think there are questions about the future
governance of the Post Office which are going to take
somewhat longer to think through, and where clearly the
Inquiry will have a view, as will many other
stakeholders, and that’s why I think -- that's why we
flagged that there will be a Green Paper next year, so
that other people, a wide variety of people can help us
reach a judgement on how we improve that culture.
Can we look, please, at page 6 of your statement,
paragraph 25. You say:
"DBT has given Nigel Railton, the Post Office's
Interim Chair, a mandate to conduct a strategic review
into the organisational culture, structure, resourcing
and operational processes within the Post Office, to be
carried out in consultation with postmasters.”
You go on to refer to the new Secretary of State
over the page, discussing possible options for the
future shape of the Post Office. To what extent are you
involved in these discussions with Mr Railton and is
that something the Secretary of State is taking more of
alead on?
I've been involved in those discussions too, with
42
the Inquiry's role in this particular issue, in the
sense that, if I don't know what Mr Railton is saying,
and if I don't know what Boston Consulting is saying to
you, and if I don't know what the consultees of the
Green Paper are saying to you, it's going to be quite
difficult for me to take into account crucial matters.
So I'm asking you, in effect, what it's got to do with
me.
Well, as I understand it, various witnesses to the
Inquiry, Sir Wyn, have suggested different ways of the
Post Office being run in the future, in terms of how
they're governed, whether it is a mutual, set up as.
a mutual, whether it becomes an executive agency of
Government, or whether there is some other process for
the governance.
And you, sir, you may or may not reach a view on
those questions, if you do, we would want to take that
into consideration as part of our thinking about the
future of the Post Office. So I suppose it's in that
context that I make the point about wanting to hear ~
wanting to consider what the Inquiry says, if anything,
‘on that point.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: All right, thanks.
MR STEVENS: I read it out already in 25, part of the
strategic review which you're liaising includes
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operational processes, yes?
Yeah.
One operational process is the potential future recovery
of shortfalls from subpostmasters, and the Inquiry has
heard evidence of concems within Post Office about the
level of discrepancies and future options to recover
them, whether it be by attachment of earnings or civil
recovery. Does the current Government have a position
on how the Post Office should address the issues of
discrepancies or shortfalls?
Well, I've been concerned to read the reports that have
come up of these issues being discussed at this Inquiry,
and we have underlined at this early stage to officials,
and directly to the Post Office, our concems that there
might still be shortfalls being identified through the
Horizon process and then, crucially, people --
subpostmasters being put under pressure around --
unfairly around how those shortfalls might be being
interpreted.
‘And so we've underlined the need to the Post Office
in the short term to make sure there is ~ that they
deal with those things in a fair and reasonable way, and
we think in the longer -- and they have given some
reassurance to us that they are seeking to bring a group
of subpostmasters in, I think it's through the NFSP to
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subpostmasters, both on issues around subpostmasters'
pay, which is a separate thing but also around they're
dealt with around any Horizon related questions.
‘And I think the process of getting in subpostmasters
into their Chesterfield office and talking through those
issues is an important first step.
We will have to work through with them, in the
medium term, what, on a longer-term basis, that process
looks like. But at this very early stage in our — in
my tenure as Postal Affairs Minister, we've not got into
a lot of the detail around this particular. It's one of
those questions that we will have to get into in more
detail about how you -- how -- about whether we leave it
entirely to the Post Office, as you've said is one
option, whether we are very directive with the Post
Office about it, or whether they can give some assurance
to us through different internal processes that they set
up, that there is a good way of managing this issue
going forward.
Just on that, is it a potential option in future that
the Government, your Department, may say, "Post Office,
it's your decision, we leave it to you"?
That's, in the sense that no option has been finalised,
it's a potential option in that regard. But, as I say,
I'd want to consider that issue in slightly slower
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their offices in Chesterfield, to go through how these
issues are dealt with at the moment and how they might
be dealt with in the longer term.
I think that is a helpful step. But I would see it
only as one -- the first step in the trying to rebuild
confidence in how the Post Office's internal processes
are used when shortfalls are identified. It's certainly
one of the issues that we will have to continue to look
at with the Post Office going forward.
Q. We've heard, in the Inquiry, of the varying lengths of
arms from the Government to an arm's-length body when it
comes to matters of operational strategy, and when it
‘comes to an issue such as discrepancies, there are at
least I suppose three ways of approaching it. One is to
say, "Well, Post Office, it's your decision, do what you
wish"; another is for the Government to say, "We want
you to do this, this is the position we wish you to
take"; and the other is to oversee the process by which
Post Office makes that decision and ensures it's fair.
It sounds like it's the latter position that the
Government is taking at the moment; is that correct?
A. I think -- at this stage I think we're clear that we
expect the Post Office -- the senior management team to
be looking at this and as part of -- they are very clear
they need to rebuild confidence among the existing
46
and -- slower time ~ I recognise it's a concern now
and, as I say, it's why we have indicated our concern as
ministers to the Post Office in a very direct way, and
why my officials have repeated that to the Post Office
too.
But in the longer term, as to how that process is
managed going forward, we need to think that through
MR STEVENS: Sir, I don't have any further questions.
Unless you wish to ask any questions now, I'll see if
the Core Participants wish to ask questions.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: That's fine. Yes, ask, please.
MR STEVENS: Ms Page has asked for five minutes and Mr Stein
has asked for five minutes as well, sir
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: I think we can safely accommodate both of
them before breaking off at around about shall we say
11.50. Let's put that as our end stop, us so to speak
MR STEVENS: Thank you, sir. It's Ms Page first.
Ms PAG!
A. You're a bit quiet, apologies.
MS PAGE: I'm not sure it is. Is that any better. No. I'm
getting a shake of the head from the transcriber. I've
got the green light on.
Thank you. Is my microphone on?
Perhaps we could see if Mr Stein wants to go first
and then perhaps my microphone can be looked at.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes, have a go, Mr Stein and we if we can
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hear you more easily.
MR STEIN: We can confirm no, from the transcriber, sadly
not. I wouldn't like her to miss any of my work.
MR STEVENS: Sir, I do wonder if the I mean, could you
ask questions from here? We know this works, it saves
time, unless you need to sit at your desk for your
notes.
MR STEIN: I think probably not.
Ah, right, we seem to have solved the problem.
Questioned by MR STEIN
MR STEIN: Mr Thomas, good morning
A. Good morning.
Q._ You may or may not be aware but my name is Sam Stein and
represent a large number often subpostmasters and, in
particular, for the purposes of some of my questions,
which will be short, I represent some currently serving
subpostmasters.
In your evidence, you've mentioned difficulties with
being able to supply answers to Mr Stevens on questions
about the appeals, and I think you've said that you
would like to reflect upon that issue, and give
an answer after the Inquiry. I think you meant after
giving evidence at this Inquiry.
A. (did
Q_ You then set out some sort of timescale for
49
lawyers who have flagged that this is an issue. And
Ihave ~ and continue to do so -- encourage my
officials to get offers made as quickly as possible, and
if there is a need for further information, that it's
a need for further information that will help not limit
or lower the amount of compensation that's paid but
potentially help uplift the compensation that is paid.
But I recognise that many people have been asked
multiple times for medical information, and that's one
of the key criticisms that I have heard since coming in
to office. And we're continuing to try to look for
solutions as much as we can do to limit that process
because I'm very conscious that given the trauma that
people have been through already, we need to avoid, in
a sense, adding to that, adding to that trauma by
drawing out any longer than is absolutely necessary the
process of getting a genuine good offer made to people.
Q._ MrHollinrake gave evidence the other day and his
evidence was regarding his period of time when dealing
with such matters, and it seemed from his evidence and,
indeed, what we could see that he had tried to take as
much of a hands on approach as possible to these
particular questions. One of the points of that I put
to him was that, given the Post Office is wholly owned
by the Government and what went wrong at the Post Office
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consideration of those particular issues. Some of our
clients are having difficulties with the time limits
within the scheme. So within at least one scheme there
is a 40-day time limit by which an offer must be made,
as I understand it. What tends to be happening, and
I think this was reviewed at the Select Committee, was
that there are then late letters sent to claimants
saying, "Can we have more details about your particular
application?" That then stops the clock on the 40-day
period, meaning there's then a built-in extra delay.
Now, we represent people that find this process very
difficult. They feel lost, they require, frankly, a lot
of support. They feel very badly damaged and hurt by
the Post Office. They find these late letters in
relation to their claims asking for details frankly
dismaying and, from their point of view, it appears
almost to be a tactic: send a letter in late asking for
more details stops the clock.
That's an issue, I think, that you're aware of from
having attended at the Select Committee; is that
correct?
I haven't attended at the Select Committee. Itis
an issue I am aware of. And I have met with -- I don't
think I've met with you, sir, but I've met with a number
of subpostmasters and I have met with some claimants’
50
and harmed so many people was therefore by an organ or
part of the state's responsibility, essentially, from my
client's point of view, not keeping the mad dog Post
Office under a leash
What I asked Mr Hollinrake was: surely the
compensation scheme should be dealt with under, if you
like, a spirit of generosity to those subpostmasters and
he agreed
Do you agree as well, Mr Thomas, that that should be
perhaps the guiding first or guiding light behind these
schemes? Not nit-picking, not getting to deal with
matters unless they are really very important, but
making progress with the spirit of generosity, do you
agree with that approach?
I do agree with that and have made that clear to my
team, and we've made that clear to the Post Office too.
I'm very grateful.
The other matter that Mr Stevens referred to, and
also Sir Wyn did, in terms of picking up a particular
point regarding strategic review, now we know
Mr Railton's evidence was that the strategic review has
been sent upwards to ministerial level, and he discussed
what he's suggesting might be a change of polarity about
the business. Now, what I think he meant was that the
Post Office business should become subpostmaster or post
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branch centric, rather than, it appears, being run for
the continuation of the Post Office in the middle,
actually running for the branches and the subpostmasters
providing the public service. He referred to that
cultural change as being really very important as a way
forward.
So the Strategic Review and the Government's answer
to it is very important to the Post Office generally,
the public of course, but also those people I represent.
If that review is going to be left so that it can take
on board points raised in this Inquiry in terms of its
report, that will be some time into next year,
Mr Thomas, because we get to closing submissions at the
end of this year. Sir Wyn and his team will then go to
a process of drafting. I'm sure it's started. Within
that process, they are also need to send out what we
call maximisation letters, which are letters to those
people which may come under, if you like, criticism from
the Inquiry in terms of the final report, and that
process always takes some time.
It will mean that neither my clients, their team,
myself and my Legal Team, will be able to make careful
consideration of what's going on, if we just get what
appears to be the kind of end result of the chat between
Government and Post Office. One way forward would be to
53
Paper would look at, changing the beginning of the
process of trying to get subpostmasters paid better, and
thinking about the sort of commercial operation of the
Post Office and getting that functioning better to
support subpostmasters. That is something that we
think -- and I know Sir Nigel does too, that -- where
work on that can start quite quickly.
You will understand that there is a process of
consultation that has to take place, that Post Office
has to lead with stakeholder ~ stakeholder groups.
Those conversations are taking place. We also have to
think through whether there are financial implications
to what Sir Nigel is seeking to do in the short-term,
and those conversations are taking place.
So I do expect that there will be movement in the
cultural -- in the direction of the cultural change you
have articulated as both wanting yourself as well as
indeed we do, very soon.
But in terms of the specific question you've made,
I will take that away and --
I'm grateful.
Now, obviously, your own position, working as you
are at the moment and dealing with these issues
directly, has only be been in the last, what, eight
weeks or something like that?
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allow us access to the submission that's made to the
ministry, so we can see what it is that Post Office is
suggesting is the way forward and then we will be able
to make some submissions.
It's difficult, sitting there where you are, for you
to say "yes" or "no" to that, I appreciate that, but
could you consider that?
lam certainly happy to consider that. I think ~
I mean, there are number of stages and number of
elements to the whole question about the future of the
Post Office. And I very much agree with the objective
of Mr Railton about, in a sense, changing the culture of
the Post Office away from focusing perhaps on the
centre, as it certainly appears to have done in the
past, to putting the needs of the subpostmaster and
their operation in communities up and down the country
at the heart of what they do going forward
And there are, in a sense, to make that cultural
change happen, there are a number of things that need to
happen. And I think we've been discussing with
Mr Railton what steps can be taken early on and soon,
and what issues will need to be considered over
a longer-term period. So the whole question about the
future governance model for the Post Office, I think, is
a longer term issue, which it is reasonable that a Green
54
I think it's approaching four months now.
Allright, longer. You can't perhaps answer questions
as to why the strategic direction of the Post Office
wasn't wrestled to the ground frankly three/four years
ago. I understand that, that's for other witnesses.
But nevertheless, what appears to us and indeed,
I believe, to the Inquiry, is that the movement that we
get on issues such as compensation only tends to come
just prior to people giving evidence, and the movement
in relation to the strategic direction of the Post
Office, we essentially only learnt about it from
Mr Railton’s evidence a week or so ago.
So there does appear to be a correlation between
coming along to the Inquiry to answer questions, and
then finding out things that may be happening and, with
great respect, Mr Thomas, many answers still then
remain. You've just used the word "very soon":
Mr Stevens was pressing you to provide an answer as to
what does "next year" mean, “early next year", and you
answered January.
I suppose what I'd say, sir - as I say, I've literally
only been in post not yet four months, so I am trying to
get my arms around the detail of the ~ of what I think
are three sets of issues: (1) the issues of how you get
compensation to victims of the scandal more quickly; are
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there gaps in the compensation process, there clearly
are, what can we do about them; and then, what do we
need to do to improve the culture and address the future
of the Post Office, so that it can do a good job in
our ~ in each of our communities, and treat
subpostmasters in a far better way than has been done up
to now.
So to give an indication, it's taking ~ you know
50 per cent of my time is spent at least on Post Office
issues, we're trying to move at pace but these things
are not always as straightforward as one might like, and
require a degree of thought and a degree of discussion
not only with stakeholders groups, but also across
Government too.
Q. Thank you, Mr Thomas. Just one matter then remains.
Those ~
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: That's a very generous five minutes,
Mr Stein,
MR STEIN: I'll just ask for one more 30 seconds of my
extended five minutes
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: 30 seconds it is.
MR STEIN: Thank you
Mr Thomas, you've just mentioned the three big
points: compensation; the way that those matters are
dealt with; and then obviously the strategic direction
57
who have been found to have been wrongly convicted, and
whose convictions indeed were an affront to the public
conscience. So you're probably familiar with
an argument that Mr Recaldin had with the Department in
January of this year, when the £600,000 was first
brought into effect, and he said that effectively it was
a floor, because everyone was potentially entitled to
it, and therefore it ought to operate as a floor, so
that those who were content to settle for £600,000 would
get that as their full and final, but those who thought
that they were entitled to more should be able to have
it by way of an interim payment.
Therefore, payments would simply go out the door to
everyone in that scheme at £600,000 with those who
thought they were entitled to more, to continue
thereafter.
But, unfortunately, the Department made it very
plain that that was not to be the case because they
wanted to make sure that they were exerting pressure on
postmasters to make full and final settlements, and that
if 600,000 went out to everyone, that would not exert
sufficient pressure. That was made very plain in the
email. I won't take you to it because the Inquiry has
seen it a few times now already, but that was the clear
reading of the responses that Mr Recaldin got.
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of the Post Office into the future. These essentially
are really the beating heart of this Inquiry. Would you
be prepared to retum to this Inquiry if Sir Wyn were to
schedule a new short period of hearings days and provide
answers to the Inquiry as to where we've got to, at some
point next year? I suspect given the timings and dates
you've spoken about it would be around late February,
early March.
A. Ifthe Inquiry summons me back, I will of course come.
I have already been summoned by the Business and Trade
Select Committee to answer questions in Parliament in
the coming weeks and I am sure colleagues across the
House of Commons will want to hold my feet to the fire
on those three big issues going forward.
MR STEIN: ['m grateful Mr Thomas and so obviously those
matters will form part of our submissions at a later
date.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Ms Page, can you be heard now?
Questioned by MS PAGE
MS PAGE: Mr Thomas, thank you.
1am going to follow up, if I may, on some of
Mr Stevens’ questions from earlier about the commitment
that you've made to make sure that full and fair is not
a secondary consideration to prompt. I'm following up
‘on that in the context of the £600,000 offer to those
58
So, in effect, the Government was turning the screws
on postmasters saying "You've got to accept the 600,000
as full and final, otherwise you don't get it.
Otherwise you've got to fight. You've got to fight on”.
Now, would you agree that that is the wrong approach
and that, moving forward, this new Government and your
Department should be looking at the £600,000 as
an interim for those who want to say they're entitled to.
more?
A. Well, certainly one of the things I'm going to reflect
on after this appearance is the balance between prompt
and full and fair. On those who have had their
convictions overturned, absolutely, I want them to feel
they've got a full and fair settlement, and I wouldn't
want anybody to feel pressurised into accepting less
than that they felt they were -- than they felt they
were entitled to.
And, you know, I believe the scheme that we've
announced, the HCRS scheme, will allow that -- will
allow that to happen but I'l certainly take away and
reflect on whether there's more that needs to be done in
that regard,
Q. Thank you, and if I may then, please, take away and feed
into your considerations the very clear message from
those we represent, including Mr Parmod Kalia, who sits
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next to me, also Mr Vipin Patel, and many other people
that we represent who have had their convictions
overturned, that they feel under pressure by the
£600,000; it makes them feel that if they want to get
payment soon they should settle for £600,000.
That is wrong. Some of these people are elderly,
some of these people are reaching the end of their lives
and they feel under pressure to accept that sum. So
please take that away.
A. I very much will do. I wouldn't want anybody, given
what they've been through, to feel under pressure and
I will very happily take that away and look at that.
What I would say as well is that part of the reason.
for the £600,000 offer was to try and give people the
chance to avoid going through a long process or
a process that created additional trauma, given what
people have been through, so the last thing I would
want, would be to have the reverse effect. So I'll
certainly take that point away and look at that, ma’am
MS PAGE: I'm grateful.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Thank you, Ms Page.
Is that it, Mr Stevens?
MR STEVENS: Thatis it, sir, yes.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Well, thank you very much, Mr Thomas, for
coming to give evidence to the Inquiry. I'm sorry that
61
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes.
CHARLES HUNTER DONALD (sworn)
Questioned by MR BLAKE
MR BLAKE: Thank you very much. Can you give your full name
please?
A. Charles Hunter Donald.
Q. MrDonald, you should have in a bundle in front of you
four witness statements that you have produced:
The first is dated 19 February this year and has
a unique reference number of WITN10770100. That
outlines the corporate structure in relation to UKGI.
A second dated 26 April 2024 with a URN of
WITN10770200. That addresses changes to governance
arrangements.
A third is dated 2 May 2024 and has URN
WITN10770300. That addresses the management of the Post
Office's performance, amongst other things.
Finally, a fourth statement dated 26 September 2024
with a URN WITN10770400 addressing lessons leat and
changes.
Do you have all four of those statements in front of
you?
A. Ido.
Q._ Can you please confirm that your signature appears on
all of those four statements?
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for the first time in virtually three years, you were
the victim of having to stop giving evidence because our
computer system, in effect, was playing up. I am very
sorry about that but I'm very glad also that it was
repairing so quickly. So my thanks to those operating
it
Insofar as you've been asked to provide further
information into the future and, indeed, you volunteered
to write to the Inquiry, I will reflect on how best
Ican communicate with you, if I may, so that there is
transparency as between you and your Department and the
Inquiry about any further information that you provide.
THE WITNESS: That's absolutely fine, sir. I will be happy
to do that.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Fine. Thank you very much. How shall we
proceed now, Mr Stevens?
MR STEVENS: Sir, if we can take a break until 12.15 and
then we will call the next witness.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Fine.
MR STEVENS: Thank you, sir.
(11.57 am)
(A short break)
(12.17 pm)
MRBLAKE: Good afternoon, sir. Can you see and hear me?
This afternoon we're going to hear from Mr Donald.
62
A. Itdoes
Q. Can you confirm that those statements are all true to
the best of your knowledge and belief?
A. They are.
Q. Thank you very much. All of those witness statements
will be uploaded up onto the Inquiry's website.
By way of background you are currently Chief
Executive of UKGI; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
@._ You have a background in investment banking. I think
you were Vice-Chair of Credit Suisse; is that correct?
A. That was my final role at Credit Suisse in 2018, yes.
I essentially ran the UK investment banking team
Q. Thank you. Prior to that various other roles relating
to investment banking?
A. Yes. The first half of my career was spent in equity
research as an equity research analyst.
Q. Thank you. You, joined UKGI as Head of the Financial
Institutions Group in March 2018; is that correct?
A. In May 2018, actually.
Q. Thank you very much. Can you assist us very briefly
with what the Financial Institutions Group dealt with at
that time?
A. Ican. So the Financial institutions Group within UKGI
is essentially what was the old UK financial investments
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part of the organisation. So when the Shareholder
Executive and UK Financial Investments came together in
2016, then the UKFI bit of it became the Financial
Institutions Group. So that's principally the part of
the organisation that deals with, basically, the
leftover assets from the global financial crisis, which
now constitute a remaining shareholding in NatWest
Group, and then liabilities in respect of the mortgage
portfolios from Bradford & Bingley and Northern Rock.
Did you have any involvement in banking compensation
schemes?
I didn't, no.
You were appointed Chief Executive of UKGI in February
2020 and took up the role in March 2020; is that
correct?
That's correct.
Was that your first experience of the Post Office?
I'd obviously read a lot about the Post Office in the
media prior to that and I had, in the period when I was
heading up the Financial Institutions Group, I had been
a member of the Executive Committee of UKGI, and Post
Office, clearly at regular moments, was a topic for that
meeting
On taking up the role, did you have any specific
briefings on the matters that are being addressed by the
65
NatWest Group, we don't sit on the Board of Channel 4.
Can you assist us with what determines whether there is
a UKGI representative on the board?
So it is substantially determined by is there a request
from the Department who owns the arm’s-length body as to
whether they would like a Shareholder Non-Executive
Director to be on the board. I think, some way before
my time, the decision was made in respect of publicly
quoted companies, so Lloyds and NatWest, in the UK
Financial Investments context, that it wasn't going to
be right for a government individual to sit on the board
of a publicly quoted company.
I think that was much as anything to do with inside
information and protection from inside information. And
then, actually, in the case of Channel 4, because of its
status as a broadcaster, it's absolutely not appropriate
for any member of the Civil Service or the government to
sit anywhere near the Board of Channel 4.
But, broadly speaking, it always reflects a request
from the Department and then it is within our
shareholder model what we believe to be a key component
of the work that we do
Putting aside the matters that the Inquiry has been
looking into, is the Post Office inherently more
challenging than those other assets that you manage?
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Inquiry, such as the enforcement actions taken against
subpostmasters, the findings of the High Court or the
issue of compensation and redress?
I spent some considerable time with the Shareholder Team
and the Shareholder NED at that time, Mr Cooper, to get
as comprehensive an understanding as I could of the
issues that were important for them at that stage, yes.
I think you have attended a number of Inquiry hearings?
Ihave.
Knowing what you know now from the Inquiry, do you
consider that those briefings in 2020 were sufficient?
They came from a perspective of, I think the UKGI
Shareholder Team but, in order, I think, for me to sort
of take on that role at that point, yes, I think they
were sufficient. I think my knowledge and understanding
of the issues has broadened quite materially since then,
of course.
Thank you. We'll go into that in due course.
You have said in your third statement that in 2007
ShEx had 17 portfolio assets, by 2019, this was 24
portfolio assets, and UKGI, I think, is a Board member
for 13 of those; is that correct?
A greater proportion of the 23 than ~ there are some
boards -- that some assets that we don't sit on the
board of. For example, we don't sit on the Board of
66
Itis up there as one of the more challenging assets.
I think, if I separate completely the issues of the
Inquiry, I would say there are some other very
challenging, complex assets. The Nuclear
Decommissioning Authority would be one would point to,
the British Business Bank, I think the UK Infrastructure
Bank, now the National Wealth Fund, tending to be the
sort of larger more complex ones, yes.
Do you consider that the governance model, the
arm's-length body model, is appropriate for the Post
Office, irrespective of the matters that we're dealing
with at this Inquiry?
So the arm’s-length body model in the way that
I understand it - I mean, it's a model which is used in
many different ways across government. I mean, there
are, I think, 350 plus arm’s-length bodies but in terms
of Post Office being a complex commercial business with
a requirement to deliver a wide range of government
policies, then, yes, I do think it is an appropriate
model.
I want to ask you a particularly broad question which
is, having heard the evidence that you have from the
Inquiry, what, if anything, do you consider went wrong
at UKGI in respect of the Post Office?
So I think, with respect to an effective governance
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model working well, I think there are two principal
components. One is, I think, that the executive of the
arm’s-length body and the information and the support
that flows from, you know, the organisation to that
executive needs to be full and transparent, and then the
executive needs to be comfortable, prepared and able to
bring all issues to the board, be they challenging,
problematic or not, and then the reciprocal of that is
that the Board needs to be equipped to be as challenging
as it can be of that executive and, to the extent that
it sometimes issues in areas that it needs to be
persistent on, then it is persistent on.
And I would say, with respect to my understanding of
some of the issues that went wrong at certain moments in
that history, it was that those two components didn't
work necessarily and, at certain moments, I think the
challenge and the curiosity from the Board, including at
certain points from the Shareholder Non-Executive
Director, were not where they needed to be.
You say “certain points"; are there particular points
that you can point to in particular?
So I think an example would be the Parker Review, so
where I think it is the case that that full review did
not come to the Board because there was legal advice to
suggest that it was privileged and shouldn't come to the
69
given the structure of the organisation.
Looking back at what you have from the Inquiry and your
‘own experience, do you consider that striving for that
self-sufficiency, rather than having some other ultimate
goal, such as benefiting particular stakeholders, such
as subpostmasters, do you think that has had a role to
play in the scandal, striving for self-sufficiency?
I think it is absolutely possible that, at certain
points, that striving created, you know, some blinkers
on the ~ in respect of sort of management's objectives.
I can probably partly respond to this question by saying
I've had a number of conversations with Mr Railton since
he took up the role of Interim Chair and I think that
these conversations have been quite high level but
I think he has some thoughts and some ideas, which, in
my view, appropriately could reposition the
organisation, importantly to take subpostmaster
constituency very seriously and make them more central
to the organisation and the way it works, and I think
those are very interesting ideas.
What do you personally see as the solution to that
issue?
I think it is -- one of the things is to address the
current cost structure and Ms Gratton made reference to
that yesterday.
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Board. With the benefit of hindsight, that clearly was
an issue that -- well, a restriction or a restraint that
should not have applied.
Thank you. We'll come to that example in due course
today.
One fundamental issue, the issue of financial
self-sufficiency or, as we heard with Lorna Gratton,
sustainability, do you consider that self-sufficiency in
respect of the Post Office is ever a realistic ambition?
I probably come at this from a slightly higher level
than perhaps Ms Gratton would have done because,
obviously, she is — sort of has level of information
that I don't have. I would say that it is
an appropriate aim but I struggle to see, with the
structure that is there in place at the moment, I think
particularly the scale of the network obligation and
then the cost structure -- I think consideration would
need to be given to both those issues in order to
produce a sustainable business.
And, as Ms Gratton I think was clear when she gave
evidence yesterday, for the Board of the Post Office
currently to sign off its accounts as a going concern,
it requires the government to stand behind it
financially, and it's not immediately obvious how that
stand behind obligation is easily removed at this stage,
70
I think there's also been ideas round, you know,
potential mutualisation, which as a concept I think is
a really interesting concept. I think, however, it's
really important that, if an entity was to be mutualised
that that entity is self-sustaining and financially and
economically sound, prior to it being mutualised
because, otherwise, a mutualisation of a financially
insecure and inefficient organisation is not going to do
anyone any benefit whatsoever.
I would like to move on to the reporting of risks, which
again was another issue that was touched on my
Ms Gratton, so I can take it relatively quickly.
Can we bring up onto screen, please, your fourth
witness statement, and it's page 46, paragraph 91 that
I'd like to ask you about. At the bottom of that page,
you say as follows:
“itis important to note, at the outset, that itis
not UKGI's primary function to identify and/or assess
risks facing individual Assets across its portfolio and
report such risks into the sponsor Department. It is
the Accounting Officers within our Assets who are tasked
with the primary responsibility for identifying and
managing the risks faced by the Asset and for reporting
on those risks to the sponsor Department, together with
the Asset’s Board and Executive.”
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If we scroll up again, please, you say it's not
UKG''s primary function. Do you nevertheless see it as
a function of UKG! to identify and assess risks facing
those assets?
So I do think it is a function, yes. I think,
principally, it is that ~ and that function is for the
Shareholder Non-Executive Director and the Shareholder
Team to act as, essentially, a secondary line of sight,
a line of visibility, onto the Board and then, in
particular, the Audit and Risk Committee, which should
be responsible for risk, and to assure themselves that
the risks that the Board has identified and that the
Audit and Risk Committee has identified are being
correctly channelled through and communication to the
Department.
And, if the Shareholder Non-Executive Director and
the Shareholder Team feel that that is not happening in
a comprehensive and appropriately detailed fashion, then
I think they have the opportunity to act as a separate
channel of information and identifying risks to the
Department.
Thank you. 1'd like to take you to the portfolio
operating principles. We could bring them up on screen
at UKGI00049040. Very briefly, you have set it out in
your witness statement, but what are the portfolio
73
I say, I wasn't part of the original inception of this
process. However, once I became CEO, I very actively
encouraged it to come to its point of completion and, as
you say ~ as I said, this document says version 4 by 4.
We regularly evaluate and update these principles.
You have set out in your witness statement how it's been
updated subsequently, as a result of the Horizon Issues?
And I do think a lot of the learnings that we have had
from the Horizon issue, a lot of the evidence that we
have heard from the Inquiry, have been significant in
developing these principles and ensuring that they are
fit for purpose. And I don't think that sort of
evolution and updating ~ I don't think you ever get to
an end date on that. I think that will be a process
that I will certainly continue to drive and my
successors will do so as well
If we could turn to page 9 please, it sets out there the
UKGI Non-Executive Director responsibilities. I would
just like to read to you from a section towards the
bottom of the page, please. in that final paragraph,
about halfway through, it says:
“UKGI [Non-Executive Directors] will act as
an interlocutor between Departments and Assets as
necessary, to give [His Majesty's Government] better
insight as to the quality of the Board in the
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operating principles?
So these were a set of principles that first started to
be developed in 2019, so prior to my taking on the Chief
Executive role, but we put them into place in 2020 and,
essentially, the purpose of this document was twofold.
It was to try and document and clarify any
misunderstandings that existed out there as to what the
shareholder role for UK Government Investments was, and
it sought to crystallise and identify the core areas
that the shareholder NED and the Shareholder Team should
be focused on. Within that, the challenge for ALBs is
that government often has many roles across them. So
they can be the funder, they can be the policy director,
they can be, in some cases a customer, they are
sometimes the regulator, and they also need to be the
shareholder.
And the purposes of documenting the portfolio
operating principles for UKGI was to identify what the
shareholder role was, as distinct from those other
government functions.
Are we to read into that that some of the background to
this development relates to the issues that the Post
Office has faced or were they developed unrelated to
these issues?
I think the answer is it was a combination. I mean, as
74
performance of its governance function, as well as to
promote [the Government's] perspective and information
flow at the Asset Board.”
So, as you were just explaining, do we read into
that that, although it may not be UKGI's principal role
in respect of managing the risks, it does, in fact, act
as a liaison between the company and the government in
respect of the performance of the Asset’s governance
function?
That is correct. It might be worth mentioning that
I don't think ~ or not *! don't think’, I'm very clear
that the concept or the governance construct of
a Shareholder Non-Executive Director is absolute not
a unique construct for UKGI. It is a governance
construct that is employed widely in the private sector
and in private equity. There are FTSE 100 companies at
the moment which have Shareholder Non-Executive
Directors from shareholders on their Board, and it
happens ~ it is a function that is across government in
other areas where UKGI is not involved.
But, yes, you are correct the principal role of that
Shareholder Non-Executive Director, whether they be UKGI
or other, is to act as that interlocutor between the
shareholder and the arm's-length body.
25 Q Thank you
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Sorry, I was just going to say and sort of be the ears
and the eyes of the shareholder around the Board table.
Could we please turn to POLO0362299. Again, very
briefly, are you able to tell us what this document is,
what its purpose is?
So this is a document which sets out the roles and
responsibilities of the Department, UKGI and the
arm’s-length body. Really, the purpose around putting
these in place, and we have them in place across all the
arm’s-length bodies that we have a role with, is to
ensure that there is a single point where the respective
responsibilities are set out and identified, in order to
provide essentially clarity as to what everyone's jobs
and obligations are.
Thank you. If we turn to page 11, it sets out there the
key roles and accountabilities of the shareholder
representative. I'll ust read to you a small section
of that. It starts by saying:
“The Shareholder's Representative (a role currently
performed by UKGI) oversees [the Post Office's]
corporate governance, strategy and the stewardship of
{the Post Office's] financial and other resources on
behalf of the shareholder. On these matters, the
Shareholder's Representative is the main source of
advice to the Policy Sponsor and the PAO
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if we scroll down to 6.2, please, is the Post Office's
Group Chief Executive; is that correct?
That is correct.
Now, there doesn't appear to be set out there
a responsibility on the Chief Executive to pass
information to the Department for Business in respect of
risks. Do you agree with that?
It doesn't set it out there but I think the principles
within the Managing Public Money document would make
reference to that.
Thank you. Do you think it's sufficiently set out there
in terms of the responsibilities of the Accountable
Officer?
I think it is in terms of the reference to the Managing
Public Money and I think that's set out in Appendix 1
But it's an interesting observation as to whether it's
more wording should be inserted in there to make it even
more explicit.
But I think the Accountable Officer of any
arm’s-length body, seeing this text in the framework
document, would want to go and look at the Managing
Public Money document.
Thank you. That can come down.
We heard from Lorna Gratton yesterday in respect of
risk reporting and I think her evidence was to the
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Can you assist us: what is PAO?
A. So the PAO is the Principal Accounting Officer, which in
most cases is normally the Permanent Secretary at the
shareholding department. So, in the case of Post
Office, that is currently the Permanent Secretary at the
Department for Business and Trade.
Thank you. So:
*... the Shareholder's representative is the main
source of advice to the [that would be the Department
then and the Permanent Secretary], and the primary
contact for {the Post Office's] interaction with the
Shareholder."
It continues towards the end of this paragraph, it
says:
"[The Post Office] will facilitate the Shareholder's
Representative in fulfilling this function by providing
relevant information on request including on but not
limited to: strategic plans, financial forecasts and
budgets, financial performance, achievements against
targets, capital expenditure and investment decisions,
[Post Office] Board appointments and remuneration,
branch network information and reports on key corporate
risks.”
There's also a section on the prior page, page 10 on
the Post Office's Accountable Officer who, in this case,
78
effect that UKGI risk reporting identifies risks that
are faced by UKGI, rather than risks that are faced by
the assets themselves. Do you consider it would be
sensible to have some sort of mechanism to track the
risks to the assets themselves?
So it is correct that, when the UKGI Board looks at
risks, it principally is focused on the risks attached
to the ability of UKGI to deliver on its role and its
function, and that might be a function of resourcing
capability and all the things that go with that.
There is then an additional role which the UKGI
Board has, and there are levels before we get to the
UKGI Board -- so there's then our own risk team, UKGI
Executive Committee, and then the Board -- to look at
whether concerns that the Shareholder Non-Executive
Director and the Shareholder Team might have about
whether the Accountable Officer at the arm’s-length body
is communicating risks correctly and whether the Board
and the Audit and Risk Committee of the ALB are
‘communicating risks correctly and assessing risks.
Then coming back to our Board, they do have a role
in terms of checking on that and regularly when -- well,
every time the UKGI Board meets, there is a risk paper
which identifies any significant movements in risk
across the ALB portfolio and the UKGI Board will
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interrogate, if appropriate, the Shareholder
Non-Executive Director, the Shareholder Team and our
Risk Team, on whether that — their concerns, if not
going through the channel of the ALB, are being
communicated to the Department.
If we take an example of a present risk, the New Branch
IT System, NBIT system, looking that development of that
system over the time that you've been at UKGI, do you
consider that UKGI has been sufficiently made aware of
those risks?
So this is a subject that has come up regularly in my
regular interactions with the Shareholder Non-Executive
Director on the Post Office Board, so initially
obviously Tom Cooper, when I took on the role, and then
subsequently Loma Gratton.
One of the core elements of those conversations that
I absolutely recall is me essentially checking with them
that their concerns around NBIT, the costs and the
development of costs are being communicated by them to
the Department, in addition to any communication that is
going from the arm's-length body itself, from the Post
Office itself.
In your view, has that communication been sufficient in
respect of NBIT?
I believe it has and, in addition, I have had
81
must not feel unable or unwilling to pursue their
concerns because of the perceived operational
independence of an Asset or, in the case of Shareholder
[Non-Executive], not wanting to overstep their
non-executive role.
“In exceptional circumstances, UKGI should not feel
constrained by its [business as usual] shareholder or
UKGI [Non-Executive Director] activities and should feel
comfortable to undertake additional scrutiny and
escalate matters where appropriate. In essence, a level
and degree of challenge being provided by UKGI must
remain under careful review in such situations."
First of all, can you assist us: what is a red flag
issue?
So one of the learnings from the Horizon scandal and the
evidence that we have all listened to at this Inquiry
has been for us to, as we talked about I think earlier
make some adjustments to the portfolio operating
principles and develop them to seek to capture the
concept of escalation in more detail, and to make sure
that -- and create an environment within UKGI where
I think Shareholder NEDs and Shareholder Teams are very
alert to issues that could become red flag issues.
So I think it's ~ I mean, I'm not sure there's
a definition that defines it precisely. I think it's
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conversations myself with both the Director General in
the Department -- that’s Mr Bickerton ~ and then, when
the responsibility for Post Office moved to the
Department for Business and Trade and, essentially, the
Permanent Secretary there Gareth Davies took on
responsibility as the PAO for Post Office, he and I had
a conversation around NBIT and the concerns that UKGI
had. So I actually think there's been sort of
multifaceted communication on that, that goes beyond
just the communication from the Shareholder NED into the
Department.
Can I return to the "Portfolio Operating Principles”, so
that’s UKGI00049040, and it's page 8 that I would like
to ask you about. There's a section here on "Escalating
Shareholder Concerns and Further Intervention". It
says:
“UKGI shareholder teams should conduct the [business
as usuall target shareholder role as set out in this.
document. However, red-flag issues may require further
escalation or intervention beyond our [business as
usual] practices and the normal parameters of the
shareholder role. This should be done via the board
initially, but if the response or engagement from the
Asset is not adequate then shareholder teams should feel
empowered to push matters further. Shareholder teams
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a function of the constant reminder that we are giving
in UKGI to Shareholder NEDs and Shareholder Teams to be
alert, curious, absolutely ready to identify a potential
red flag issue and make sure that it is being escalated
through to the Department.
I think there's a -- we've done a lot of training
through the organisation and through the Shareholder
Teams on what we have set out as our initial lessons
learnt from the Horizon scandal and I think we've
created a culture and environment which is very
questioning.
Can you assist us with what kind of matters would be
a red flag issue and, indeed, whether there have been
red flag issues that have been dealt with.
So I think ~ I mean, perhaps it makes sense to come
back in respect to the NBIT example. I don't think it's
the sole reason that this has happened but the
Department is seeking and has put in place an assurance
role from public digital, which is a government IT
digital function, around NBIT, and that would be a good
example. I mean, I think that's a very good example of
where I think a department has taken an action as
a function of a red flag issue being identified.
But, as I say, I don't think that's purely come from
just UKGI, I think that was also a set of ~ reflected
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a set of concerns in the Department.
Thank you. That document can come down. In this
Inquiry, we've seen the issue as to whether something is
an operational matter or a strategic matter. Do you
think that there is clarity, certainly in amongst the
Non-Executive Directors for UKGI as to the difference
between the two?
Ido and I think, again, within our training and our
development programme, which we put in place over the
last three and a half years, we have a lot of discussion
around the role of non-executive and executive and we
absolutely know that a board is to be non-executive and
should not be getting into running operational issues.
That being said, I don't think - and it's reflected in
the extract that you read out there -- I don't think
that the Shareholder Non-Executive Director at UKGI
should be fearful about, you know, potentially
overstepping themselves at certain moments and being
challenging and being curious because I think that's our
role and I think that's one of the lessons that we have
leamt from this scandal
We've heard some evidence that some people saw Horizon
as an operational matter because it related to
a computer system. How do you see that being avoided in
the future?
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Shareholder NEDs, and we will discuss exactly those
issues and how they could develop and what to be aware
of and how to resist that happening, and I think that —
you know, I mean, individuals will need constant
reminding and reinforcement of those principles to
ensure that these things don't happen again.
There has been some evidence, I think it was from the
‘Subpostmaster Non-Executive Directors that there is
a slight imbalance on the Board because the UKGI
representative spends every day of the week on Post
Office issues, has access to materials from the
Department that other non-executives don't have access
to. I know you have already said in your evidence that
that structure exists elsewhere, not just for government
but also for other shareholders.
But do you see an issue there and, if so, how can
that be overcome?
So I think, to the sort of imbalance point, most of our
Shareholder Non-Executive Directors at UKGI will have
additional functions that extend beyond just being
a Shareholder NED or leading a Shareholder Team of
an asset. So I actually don't think there's a single
individual who is five days a week purely as the
Shareholder NED role. So that would be the first
observation I would make.
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A. So I think it was sort of the judgement by some
individuals that it was an operational issue and should
be left as such that was potentially a contributory
factor to what went on, which is why I come back to that
I think the Shareholder Non-Executive Director's role
today is not to be fearful about just saying "That's
an operational issue and I shouldn't be asking questions
about it’. I think they absolutely should.
Q. We've also heard some evidence in the Inquiry
potentially about the Shareholder Non-Executive Director
becoming too close to the organisation, to the Post
Office. How do you see that as being avoided now or in
the future?
A. So I think that's an issue for - I don't think that's
an issue specifically for the Shareholder Non-Executive
Director. I think that's an issue for all
non-executives, and I think ~ I mean, you didn’t use
the phrase but groupthink is a real risk and a real
danger and one of the — again, one of the elements that
we have drilled into people in our training and in our
development programme is to be very alert to the dangers
of groupthink.
In fact, I can recall a specific session as part of
our Shareholder NED development programme where you have
essentially 19/20 people in a room, so collectively the
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But the second observation I would make is that
we've never said and we've never identified the
Shareholder Non-Executive Director as an independent
non-executive director. I mean, in our view, and the
definition of it, they are non-executive, yes, but they
are not independent because they are there to represent
the shareholder.
And I don't think in certain issues, when
shareholder issues need to be really focused on, that
necessarily an imbalance is inappropriate. I do think
there are ways to sort of mitigate that, in terms of the
culture and the dynamic around the Board table and
I think it is incumbent upon the Shareholder
Non-Executive Director, and indeed the Chair, to be
focused on that dynamic and to make sure that that
dynamic works effectively for the overall working of the
Board
I think there's also a responsibility on the behalf
of other non-executive directors to understand and seek
to understand the role that the Shareholder
Non-Executive Director has and, you know, make some
allowances and adjustments for that very specific role.
MR BLAKE: Sir, it's 1.00. I am unlikely to have more than
half-an-hour’s worth of further questions. I think the
questions from Core Participants, if any, will be
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minimal. Can I propose that we continue, unless
somebody else says that that's unrealistic.
Mr Jacobs has about ten minutes. That would take us
up to 1.40, if my timings are accurate.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: I am prepared to do it but, first of all,
let me ask Mr Donald how he feels about that. He is the
one in the hot seat, so to speak.
Would you prefer to continue and have your lunch
afterwards, so to speak, or break for lunch?
THE WITNESS: I'm perfectly happy to continue, Sir Wyn.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Fine. I understand we have a transcriber
who is remote. Is that person happy to sit through what
would normally bet a lunch period, so far as we can
ascertain.
MR BLAKE: I'm not sure how I would establish if they
weren't I am going to take a guess and say --I am told
on the screen ~ there's no answer on screen.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: I'm going to assume that most people
would prefer to finish earlier rather than later on
Friday in that event.
MR BLAKE: The transcriber says "Yes, I am happy".
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: I'm also going to hold you, Mr Blake, and
any other questioner lest there be more than Mr Jacobs,
to a fairly strict timetable so carry on.
MR BLAKE: Could we then, please, turn to UKG100013237.
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If we scroll up -- thank you very much ~ slightly
further up, we can see correspondence then in October,
80 after the summer break, and it says as follows:
“Further to the ministerial and SpAds support for
postmaster representation on the [Post Office] Board the
Post Office have designed a proposed approach for the
recruitment process. Ash has confirmed delegation of
this matter to Minister Scully after SpAds clearance."
That was delegation from the Secretary of State,
I believe, to the Minister.
A. Correct.
Q. If we scroll up, we see an email above that that says:
“With apologies for overriding the previous
[Secretary of State] office steer, this should no longer
be delegated.”
Are you able to recall what the issue was here and
why it was that the Secretary of State personally wanted
to deal with that matter?
A. [don't recall. I mean, I think that email is obviously
from the private office, from the Secretary of State so
I'm assuming it reflects a discussion with private
office. I don't know what the reason was, I'm afraid.
Q._Did take some time to address this issue from what you
recall? We know that the Subpostmaster Non-Executive
Directors were ultimately appointed in June 2021. Can
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I'm going to address the topic of the Subpostmaster
Non-Executive Directors. This is a submission very
early of in your time at UKGI, July 2020, and does this
submission provide the background to that appointment?
In the "Summary’, it says:
“This note provides an update to [the Post Office's]
proposal for 1 to 2 Postmaster Non-Executive Director
roles on their Board and the engagement [that Post
Office] has had with postmasters regarding their
relationship model."
Paragraph 3, the "Recommendation" is:
"That the Secretary of State approves the direction
of travel on [the Post Office's] proposal for postmaster
representation ..."
Do you recall receiving this submission or perhaps
even drafting it?
I wasn't involved in the drafting of it, as I recall,
but I do recall it, yes.
Thank you. If we could please turn to UKGI00032895. So
that was July 2020. If we scroll over, please, to
page 5, in August 2020 we have an email on behalf of the
Secretary of State that says:
"[The Secretary of State] has agreed with the
recommendations in respect of Postmaster Representation
on [the Post Office] Board without further comment.”
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you recall any controversy or issues surrounding that
issue?
So I don't recalll any controversy. I am very clear that
UKGI, be it — whether it be the Shareholder Team, the
Shareholder Non-Exec Director or myself were always
extremely supportive of this initiative. So I don't
believe we had any role in the time delay.
Did you have any concerns about issues, such as
conflicts of interest, somebody being a postmaster at
the same time as being a contributing member of the
Board?
Well, I mean, as I think everyone is aware, it is not
a widely-used construct. There are other examples of it
and I think, in the PLC world, Capita has been a company
that has had employee non-executive directors.
Clearly, there is potential, as there is with any
Non-Executive Director, for conflicts to occur but my
perspective is that conflicts are there to be managed
and dealt with. They're not, in themselves, a barrier
to something happening.
So I think in putting Postmaster Non-Executive
Directors in place, careful thought should be given to
the conflicts, and then I think it is incumbent upon the
Board and the company secretariat, et cetera, to then
manage those conflicts and make sure they're managed
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appropriately.
Putting conflicts to one side, how about experience?
Obviously, those who become Subpostmaster Non-Executive
Directors won't necessarily have Board level experience;
do you see that as an issue?
I mean, I think, ifI recall correctly and I'm not sure
this is absolutely the fact, but I think there was
a process to identify candidates for the role, and then,
you know, further - I don't know whether they were
interviews or meetings but are then, I think, to
identify who the appropriate candidates would be.
I don't think a lack of prior Board experience would be
a reason for this innovation to take place.
You could argue, as I have in a number of cases
elsewhere, that, if you're really trying to ensure good
board diversity, there should always be at least one
member of the Board who has not had prior board
experience because, if you are specifying prior board
experience as a criteria for appointment, you are
actually instantly creating a slightly restrictive and
less diverse board. I mean, that's a personal opinion
as opposed to a UKGI one.
So I don't think that that should be a prohibition
to the initiative taking place and I also think that, in
this particular instance, and why we were supportive of
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available more widely.
I mean, that's quite a substantive resourcing
question but it's something we have talked about.
We heard some evidence from Saf Ismail in relation to
the slide deck — you will have seen that in your
bundle, I won't bring it up onto screen but it's
POL00448368 ~ in respect of his own training. Do you
think that UKGI should be doing more in respect of, in
particular, those Subpostmaster Non-Executives and
bringing them up to a particular level in respect of
being a Board member?
I think it absolutely could do. I think, I mean, I have
seen that slide deck and I think that was you know
a sensible initiative, in terms of seeking to help the
new non-executive directors understand the various roles
and responsibilities and become familiar with how the
structure worked.
But I think like, you know, all training and all
development, I don't think -- I don't think there's ever
a finishing point to it. So I think that is a really
interesting suggestion as to whether we should be doing
more of that on an ongoing basis.
Moving to Board effectiveness reviews you have addressed
that at paragraph 50 of your witness statement. Very
briefly, how does UKGI evaluate the performance of the
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it, is because we sawit as one of the mechanisms to get
Post Office — postmaster concems and issues more
accurately understood and reflected around the Board
table.
What do you see as UKGI's role in respect of supporting,
training, educating those Subpostmaster Non-Executive
Directors?
So I don't think there is a formal role but I do think
that -- and it picks up on a point I referenced earlier,
that it is important for the UKGI Shareholder
Non-Executive Director to build relationships with all
the other members of the Board and, if that involves
spending time with them, on getting them to understand
the UKGI role, that would be a very important thing to
do.
I mean, I have served as a Shareholder Non-Executive
Director on an ALB board. I spent a lot of time with
others members of the board helping them anticipate the
UKGI shareholder role. Now, in that case, none of them
were new first-time board directors but I think there is
an informal option for UKGI to be involved in education
and that, and we have -- one of the things we have
considered internally is whether the training and
development programme that we have now put in place
within our own organisation is whether we should make it
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Board since the judgments of Mr Justice Fraser?
So Board effectiveness reviews, I see them as a key
element of good governance that need to be promoted by
the Shareholder Non-Executive Director. So you will be
familiar that they should take place annually and then
one in any three-year period should be an externally
facilitated review.
UKGI will normally have a role alongside the chair.
So Board effectiveness reviews should be commissioned by
the Chair. They can take various different forms but,
for example, one of the fairly standard elements of it
is normally a questionnaire that goes out to all members
of the Board, to be answered and then sometimes for the
responses to be compiled on an anonymous basis.
Sometimes the UKGI Shareholder NED will be part of
the discussion with the Chair as to what topics and
issues should be specifically addressed in that and, if
for any reason the Chair is showing any reluctance or
any hesitation about commissioning a Board effectiveness
review, I would expect the Shareholder Non-Executive
Director to push it hard with the Chair and, if
unsuccessful, come back to me and highlight that as
a problem.
From your own experiences, what is your current view of
the leadership, the CEO and the Chair, of the Post
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Office and their ability to manage the issues that the
company faces?
So I have spent some time with the new Interim Chair.
I, together with my own Chair, met him prior to his
appointment and we have individually -- my own Chair and
I, have met him subsequently and I have had a number of
other conversations with him.
I think he is grasping many of the issues that need
to be addressed well. I mean, these conversations have
been quite high level. They haven't been down in detail
but I think he has sort of the energy and the experience
and the perspective to get to grips with the issues that
need to be addressed.
That's the Chair?
That's the Chair.
In respect of the CEO?
So I had regular interactions -- when I say regular
probably sort of twice a year with Mr Read.
I think there is now an interim CEO in place.
Ihave not yet met the Interim CEO.
We've heard a lot of evidence about remuneration,
requests to government for greater pay. Do you have any
views as to the level of remuneration whether it
attracts the best talent for example?
I think it's a difficult balance because I do believe
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principles how litigation should be treated by the UKGI
Shareholder NED and the Shareholder Team and, as I've
set out in my witness statement, this reflects learnings
both from the Horizon issue but also, prior to that,
from the Magnox issue.
What in particular contained in those do you consider
would avoid the problems of the past?
So I think it is a requirement for the board of the
arm’s-length body to be ~ through the quarterly
shareholder meeting, be reporting with appropriate
detail litigation that it is facing and then for, if
appropriate, the UKGI Shareholder NED, in conjunction
with the UKGI Legal Team putting in place a protocol for
information flow through to UKGI on that litigation, if
itis appropriate.
You've mentioned the Swift Review, I think. Could we
please tum to UKGI00045960. Was that an issue that
reached prominence when you joined UKGI, in respect of
the sharing of that review with members of the Board?
If we turn to page 4, we can see it referenced there.
Is ita particular issue that stands out for you in
respect of UKGI and the Bates litigation —
Well, it was —
-- or litigation in general?
So it was this issue around legal privilege acting as
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that it's just sort of axiomatic that the public sector
and all forms of the public sector are never going to be
able to provide the levels of remuneration that might be
available in the private sector, and I think, if you
take a role in the public sector, I think you have to be
absolutely cognisant and sensitive to that. I don't
think it's something that, you know, you can ignore.
I think you need to make a conscious decision at the
point when you take up a role in the public sector that
that is going to be a characteristic.
It is obviously also important that the remuneration
does generate a sufficient level of interest from
suitably qualified candidates for the role. So I think
it's always going to be a question of balance but
Idon't ~
In terms of where it's currently set, what is your view?
I think that where it's currently set, it should
absolutely not be impossible to attract a candidate of
the appropriate skills.
Moving on to dealing with litigation, what do you see as
the main flaws in the way the UKGI approached the Bates
litigation?
So I think the best way, if I may, to answer that
question is to identify what we have ~ what we have
done in terms of putting in place within our operating
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a barrier to the Board seeing the review, and I think
one of the things that we have all learnt is that legal
privilege is not always going to be an appropriate
barrier for a board seeing a document. I'm not
an expert on legal privilege but there are ways to
ensure that visibility can be provided in spite of that
legal advice, and that Shareholder Teams and Shareholder
NEDs need to be ready to challenge that legal advice.
Will just read to you a few passages from this email
If we scroll down slightly, it's an email from Tom
Cooper of 26 August 2020. He says:
“An update on our previous discussions about Tim
Parker's role in commissioning, and following up on, the
QC's recommendations that were made shortly after Tim
was appointed Chairman of [the Post Office].”
It says there at the first bullet point:
"Since we last spoke: the non-executive directors
met to discuss the report on 28 July. Tim was asked
about the QC’s report and why it wasn't discussed with
or disclosed to the Board. Tim said that he was guided
by Jane MacLeod, the company's counsel at the time, who
gave advice that the document needed to be kept
confidential because of the upcoming litigation and also
raised privilege issue. He said he relied on that,
advice."
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If we scroll up, we can see a response from Mark
Russell of UKGI, he says:
“This has parallels to Magnox where the Board relied
heave lion internal legal counsel and didn't commission
second opinions.
“if we are considering what action, if any, is taken
against Tim then don't we/BEIS need a view in addition
to the [Senior Independent Director] probably a legal
view? Was it reasonable, at the time, for Tim to rely
solely just on Jane's guidance?"
If we scroll up we see a further response from
Richard Watson, also of UKGI. He is the General Counsel
of UKGI.
He was at that time, yes.
He says:
“In terms of Tim's explanation of why he did not
disclose the advice to the Board clearly the QC’s report
was confidential and legally privileged but that, in
itself, does not explain why it should not be disclosed
to the Board. There is no risk of a company's legal
privilege being lost or confidentiality being breached
simply by legal advice, it has received being disclosed
to the Board. So I am really struggling to understand
why Jane MacLeod gave that advice
“At the risk of coming at this with a great benefit
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So I think I hopefully have illustrated how, you know,
we now have in place a guidance note on how a board
should deal with litigation. We have training in our
development programme to make sure our Shareholder NEDs
understand that — how litigation should be dealt with
if an ALB is experiencing it.
I suppose the question is whether either the
Shareholder NED or other members of the Board are aware
that they are not seeing something because the Chair has
taken a view on the back of advice that legal privilege
stops it getting to the Board. If they are aware, then
I think we have a robust mechanism and advice in place
where the natural reaction for the UKGI Shareholder NED
would be to challenge that vigorously, in the way I've
just described.
If they don't have visibility, then I think it then
comes back to what we now have in the framework document
around litigation visibility being given to the
shareholder, and one would expect the Chair to be
cognisant of that framework document and realise where
the Chair's obligation sat in that regard.
In that circumstance that we've just seen, might it be
that the General Counsel or the Chair are worried, in
particular, because of the circumstances of UKGI being
on the Board, that it would lose that document to the
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of hindsight I would like to think that if a company
Chair was told by the company's General Counsel that
they should not disclose something to the Board because
of confidentiality and/or legal privilege concems they
would strongly challenge that advice if they otherwise
felt that the Board should be aware. There might be
cases where, for example, individual Board members were
conflicted ... which might be a reason not to share
something with them but the general principle is, as you
know, that the Board acts collectively.
"IL wonder if what happened in this case is that Tim
was comforted by the QC’s report (which he read as
effectively giving a green light to everything POL had
done) and together with the advice Jane gave him and the
fact of the litigation he came to the view that there
was no need to share the QC's report with the Board."
There's a response above that from Tom Cooper, who
says:
*... [don't see how, even with rose coloured specs
‘on, anyone would see a green light in the QC's report,
although it's possible that is how it was presented to
Tim given [the] way it was described to the Minister in
the letter he wrote updating her of progress.”
Looking at this issue, how do you say UKGI can
protect against that kind of an issue in the future?
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wider department?
That might be a concer and, you know, one would expect
the Chair and the Shareholder NED to discuss that issue
but I don't think that circumvents the ultimate
obligation that I think lies with the arm's-length body
to make sure that there is a good and reliable
information flow, and I talked about within the
quarterly shareholder meetings on litigation that it is
facing coming through to the shareholder.
To what extent do you think that something like the
Freedom of Information Act, which would allow somebody
to obtain information, even if it was legally privileged
in certain circumstances that has in some way a chilling
effect in respect of the passing of information to the
UKGI Non-Executive Director?
That's quite difficult for me to answer with any sort
of -
Ifit's not something you are aware or familiar with,
that’s absolutely fine.
I'm familiar with it, yes, because I'm obviously
familiar with the Freedom of Information Act. I'm not
sure I have the expertise or experience to provide you
with a response that is, you know
can put it a different way. Do you have any concerns
that in respect of not just the Post Office but all of
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the other assets, that there is some fear in respect of
sharing information with UKGI from the companies
themselves because that information is lost and then
available to, for example, applicants under the Freedom
of Information Act?
A. In general, I don't think that's a reluctance that we
have experienced, no.
Q._ My final topic really is the current operation of the
Post Office. You will have seen documents about
difficulties in respect of current enforcement
operations. You may have even heard evidence in
relation to a potential dispute or difference of opinion
between the Post Office and Fujitsu currently.
What do you see as the route through the
difficulties the company currently faces in enforcing
shortfalls for example, or taking action against what
appear to be shortfalls?
A. I think I should probably just preface the answer to
this by saying I have some visibility on this, so I am
aware that this is an issue. I don't have detailed
understanding of what the Board discussion has been on
it or what the proposals for dealing with it are, and
I think Ms Gratton was asked questions about this
yesterday, and I think ~ probably appropriate for her
answers to be taken certainly ranked superior to mine.
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discussion as part of the Board. I don't know for
absolute certain but I presume that Ms Gratton and
members of the Shareholder Team have been involved in
sort of interviews or meetings with the firm
commissioned —
Q._ In terms of you personally, though, do you personally
feel that you have sufficient visibility of that
fundamental review that seems to be taking place?
A. So I've had -- as I say, high level conversations with
Mr Railton on some of the core components of the
strategic review. I have not yet seen a document.
MR BLAKE: Sir, those are all of my questions.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Thank you very much
Mr Jacobs.
Questioned by MR JACOBS
MR JACOBS: Could we turn please to the portfolio operating
principles and that is at UKGI00049040, and page 8 of
57, please.
Mr Blake took you to this earlier on. It's the
section concerning escalating shareholder concerns and
further interventions.
If we look at page 8, there is a paragraph, if we
scroll down further, it says:
“if Shareholder Teams think that they need to
intervene above and beyond their shareholder role, they
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I think the comment I would make is I think it's
really important for the Board, collectively, to be
examining this issue in detail and, you know, focussing
on getting the Executive to take it forward in the right
and appropriate way. I think that's probably about all
I can say.
We looked earlier at risks, for example, and if the
company is potentially losing a considerable amount of
money because it is unable to take any enforcement
action, is that not something that should be of concern
to the Chief Executive of UKGI?
Itis a concer but I think it is important also ~ so
as I say, 'm aware of the issue and, in my regular
catch-up meetings with Ms Gratton, she has referred to
this. So my usual response is to always check that the
Department has been made aware of the concem. It comes
back to that risk escalation we were talking about.
But, as I say, I think the primary responsibility
sits with the Board to address the issue.
With regard to the strategic review, what is UKGI's role
in that?
So this is the review that Mr Railton has commissioned?
Yes.
So I am aware that the Board has obviously discussed
that. Ms Gratton will have participated in that
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must alert the UKGI CEO [that's you], Portfolio Director
and General Counsel, so they can consider how best to
manage [this] particular issue.”
Then
“If a Shareholder Team has significant concems the
way the Asset is handling an important matter, they
should ensure the Department is well sighted at the
appropriate levels. This is likely to include informing
the Permanent Secretary and potentially ministers."
Loma Gratton gave evidence yesterday and she
confirmed what she said at paragraph 40 of her
statement, where she said:
“Ultimately, should my team or I become aware of
an issue that we do not consider the Department has been
fully sighted on or has not fully considered, it may be
appropriate to provide a submission directly to the
Departmental Minister or the Permanent Secretary."
So is that the process that's set out in the
operating principles?
Yes, that is correct.
Is it the Shareholder Team who would provide
a submission to you, for you to forward on to the
relevant minister? How does that's work; what's the
process?
So I think in the first instance there would be.
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a discussion with the Department as to the content of
the submission. We'd need to be really clear on why the
Department wasn't prepared to be, you know, part of the
submission process and I think Ms Gratton mentioned
yesterday that, you know, submissions, yes, come from
UKGI but they are normally worked on together with the
Policy Team in the Department, and then they go up to
ministers.
So this is an in extremis option where, if we think
for any reason officials are not prepared to correctly
sort of reflect our concems in a submission, then we
would want to do an independent submission.
I would expect the Shareholder Team, the Shareholder
NED, to bring me at least a draft of that submission to
make me aware that it's going directly to ministers and
that, you know, it is to correct the fact that officials
have not been providing that information
Thank you. Mr Thomas gave evidence this morning and he
said that he is concemed about the culture in the Post
Office. I don't know, did you follow the evidence of
Mr Ismail, one of the Shareholder Non-Executive
Directors, on 24 September?
I followed part of it. I didn't follow it all.
In his witness statement he expressed a number of
concerns about the culture of Post Office and one of the
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I think they are and specifically that concern around
Investigators remaining in post, that has been a topic
of conversation with the Department.
Also there is this issue, isn't there, of the YouGov
survey, where I think 92 per cent of the 1,000
subpostmasters who responded said that they were having
issues with Horizon and, of those who said they were
having issues, I think 98 per cent said they had been
paying the shortfalls and had been resolving the matters
themselves.
Is that another matter that's raised concerns?
Yes, and specifically I have read the summary of that
survey. That has raised concerns in my own mind.
Ihave begun a discussion with the Shareholder
Non-Executive Director about that and I have a meeting
in my diary with Minister Thomas coming up.
So that is something that's being looked at. No need to
go back to the document but the "Portfolio Operating
Principles" document refers to hard levers and soft
levers. We know from Ms Gratton’s evidence yesterday
that the hard lever would include the power under the
revised Articles of Association for Post Office to issue
a direction -- sorry, for the Government, for the
Minister to give a direction to Post Office to require
them to take all steps within their power to do whatever
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issues that concems our clients, in particular, is the
‘ongoing nature of investigations. I'l read what
Mr Ismail said:
“When it's considered appropriate to investigate
a postmaster, POL continues to be the body that
determines the terms of reference of those
investigations. Often postmasters will be suspended
prior to those interviews taking place without
understanding the reasons for that suspension.
Postmasters are still not shown evidence in respect of
investigations into their branches, prior to
investigation interviews being conducted by POL
investigators, and no legal representatives are
permitted by POL at those PM interviews.”
That sounds rather like what was going on during the
time of the scandal, doesn't it, and there are other
concems in relation to the retention of a number of
Investigators, for example, who were directly involved
with the victims of this scandal and have been
criticised and this notion of the Post Office continuing
to cast itself in the role of victim, investigator and
prosecutor, albeit now via CPS.
So these cultural matters are they matters that are
capable of being seen as red flag issues in light of
what's happened in the past, Mr Donald?
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the directions require to be done.
It was understood that this is a last resort option.
But in relation to the soft levers, what is it that the
Department would be able to do to exercise control and
appropriate oversight of the Post Office in relation to.
the cultural issues that I've identified that we've been
talking about?
So, I mean, I think the first step is for there to be
a discussion between the Department and the Chair and
management around the cultural issues. There have been
those discussions. I have participated in the meeting
with Mr Railton and Mr Bickerton, who's the Director
General, where the cultural issues have been a topic of
discussion. So I believe Mr Railton is very aware of
the concerns that the Department and UKGI have around
culture issues.
Thank you.
The portfolio operating principles document refers
to the involvement of General Counsel, UKGI's General
Counsel. Can you just expand a little bit on how.
General Counsel would get involved in a governance issue
in respect of an asset such as Post Office?
So a good example might be -- and this is an example
I am taking from elsewhere in our portfolio, where there
was a whistleblowing issue in an asset - I should say
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that I'm not talking about Post Office at this point I'm
talking about a different arm's-length body —- and where
the Shareholder Non-Executive Director came away from
the board meeting with some significant concerns about
how the whistleblowing issue was being dealt with, and
that individual went straight to the UKGI Legal Counsel
and said, "I need some advice and, I mean, I need my
hand holding through this process in how I deal with
it’,
We have strengthened the resourcing of the UKGI
legal team over the course of the last three years in
order to provide more resource to Shareholder
Non-Executive Directors and Shareholder Teams to deal
with such issues. So that would be a good example.
Does that answer your question?
That does, although I just wanted some clarification on
one other aspect. The document says that -- this is the
"Portfolio Operating Principles" document ~ if the
Shareholder Teams think they need to intervene over and
beyond their shareholder role they must alert, in
addition to you, the Portfolio Director, and General
Counsel. So General Counsel is informed at the outset
of an issue that the Shareholder Team wishes to raise?
Yes, and I think our General Counsel in UKGI has been
very heavily involved in the way we have sought to learn
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Thank you. That's helpful. I just have one other
question to ask you and I'm aware of the time, so I will
be quick. At paragraph 62 of your statement — no need
to turn it up -- you refer to the framework agreements,
and I just wanted to ask you ~ if we could have
a document on the screen, please, it's POL0036299(sic).
This should be a framework agreement
Ifit could come up, it might -- POLO0362299. I'm
sorry. That's entirely my fault
This is, I understand, the current Post Office
Limited shareholder relationship framework document?
Correct.
If we could go to section 12.1 of that document, it's at
page 18 of 29, if that helps. “Shareholder's Right to
Information’, so it says:
“Post Office will proactively endeavour to share
information on key strategic or policy issues with the
shareholder.”
Then under the Articles:
“The shareholder may request such information in
relation to the affairs of the group ... as it may
consider necessary or desirable. The company shall use
its reasonable endeavours to comply promptly ... but
only insofar as the company has such information in its
possession or such information immediately obtained by
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the lessons from this scandal and help us in formulating
the changes in the government's model and the portfolio
operating principles we've made. So as a function
naturally both of their function and that heavy
involvement over the last few years, they need to be, in
my view, a natural counterparty for that discussion.
Thank you. A point of concem that my clients have: is
it absolutely understood within UKGI that seemingly
technical or operational issues are absolutely capable
of amounting to red flag issues and requiring
intervention?
Yes, and perhaps I could come back to an illustration.
So within my witness statements I have set out in quite
some detail the development programme that we have put
in place and the training that we have done, and these
sorts of questions are exactly the issues that we allow
to sort of be reflected in discussions, whether they be
the formal training sessions or the informal group
gatherings or the peer support sessions, because we
take ~I take a view that no Shareholder Non-Executive
Director at UKGI should essentially feel alone.
You know, it shouldn't be just them who is needing
to wrestle and deal with these issues. They need to be
able to come to the experience of that collective group
to think about how they best address them.
4114
it and may meet with such specified or other relevant
directors and senior managers of the company ... to
discuss the affairs of the group. The shareholder may
make such requests itself or via the shareholder's
representative or policy sponsor. The shareholder, the
shareholder's representative and policy sponsor may use
the information that's necessary to properly exercise
the shareholder function on the understanding that due
care will be taken in handling POL's information ...”
and it continues.
Are you aware of this right of the shareholder to
request information of the Post Office?
lam.
And is that something that is exercised?
Itis, yes.
‘And could this provision be used to hold Post Office to
account in circumstances where it's not clear that the
right information is getting out were that to happen in
the future?
It could be used, yes.
‘And just one final question. This framework document,
I believe, is dated March 2020. Is there any reason why
it hasn't been updated?
Itis currently in the process of being updated. That
is underway. That is running more slowly than I would
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like, and I have been pressing for the process to be
completed and both the UKGI team, the Post Office and
the Department are aware that it is a pressing document
to be updated.
MR JACOBS: Thank you very much. I don't have any further
questions for you.
MR BLAKE: Sir, itis entirely my fault but there are two
further sets of questions of no more than five minutes
each. I apologise. The first is from Mr Henry and the
second from Ms Shah.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: All right.
Questioned by MR HENRY
MR HENRY: Thank you very much, sir.
Mr Donald, you became involved in a conversation
with Mr Nick Read about removing Tom Cooper as
Non-Executive Director, did you not?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Can you just help me, please: what was the rationale
that Mr Read gave you for why Mr Cooper ought to be
removed?
A. So I will absolutely come to your question, Mr Henry,
but if I could just identify a point I made in my fourth
witness statement which was that prior to the
conversation with Mr Read -- and I think we're talking
about November 2022 -- I had had a conversation with
17
he conducts himself suggests this happens. He has
little or no influence in government and he doesn't
understand the politics. I am consequently fearful for
the next four weeks and how we are being positioned in
Whitehall. Deeply disappointing ... and it needs to
change.”
So first question arising from that little snippet:
the cheerleader point, what do you have to say to that?
A. [don't think the Shareholder Non-Executive Director
should be a cheerleader for the business.
Q Exactly.
A. Thatis not their role, and I have been clear with all
the chairs and chief executives of the ALBs that we look
after that I do not think the Shareholder NED is there
to be a cheerleader.
Q. And can you help: did Mr Read's conversations with you
shed any light upon his being fearful for the next four
weeks and how we're being positioned in Whitehall?
A. MrHenry, I can't exactly remember what was coming up
over the next four weeks and I don't remember that being
a central part of the conversation that Mr Read had
with, I'm afraid
Q._ I then go to these words:
"I would encourage you to lobby Charles Donald and
to raise the issue with the Permanent Secretary. I will
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Mr Cooper on 1 November 2022 when Mr Cooper had
requested to me that he'd come off the Post Office
Board. He had been on for ~ well. He would have been
by the end of March '23 for nearly five years and he
felt he'd done his time.
Thought he'd done his bit. Thank you, Mr Donald.
Can you just help us, though: what was the rationale
that was being put before you by Mr Read?
So one of the elements of the rationale, and I think
it's come up in other documents that have been
disclosed, it's this concept of being a cheerleader for
the company.
Right. I think, because I am under such time
constraint, I am going to just ask you to have a look at
this document POL00448676 and could we turn to page 2 of
4, please. Yes, "That's a fair summary, Henry”. If we
could just move the page up so that the whole of
Mr Read's email can be seen. Thank you very much.
I'm going to read I out very, very quickly,
Mr Donald:
"That's a fair summary, Henry. My primary issue
with Tom is that he fails to fulfil his role, which is
to act as an interface between the company and
government and to act as a cheerleader for what we do
and the value we play in society. Nothing about the way
118
also be asking Charles Donald what progress he has made
‘on removing him."
Those are reportedly your words "removing" him
Did you use those words “on removing him"?
I didn't use the word "removing" him. I did say to
Mr Read I was considering moving Tom Cooper —
Isee.
~ which was that I reference that conversation I'd had
with Tom Cooper. I think it was two weeks before I met
with Mr Read.
‘And that was a simple and unambiguous meaning of what
you said?
Well, and also, Mr Henry, I would ~ it is not
appropriate, in my view, for a chief executive of an
arm’s-length body to think that they can ask me to
remove a non-executive director.
Right. Could I ask you then ~- so it could perhaps have
been a cross-wire, but were you absolutely clear that
you never used such words?
I'm absolutely clear I did not use the word "removing"
him. I did use the words “moving him".
Right. Now, could I now just go to after the bracket,
where it is allegedly attributed to you, sir:
"The additional problem this Inquiry and Tom's
reluctance to distance himself from it.”
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Now, this is written on December 23, 2022, so
clearly some weeks after you've had your conversation
with Mr Cooper about Mr Cooper saying effectively, "I've
done my bit, I want to move on".
“The additional problem is the Inquiry, and Tom's
reluctance to distance himself from it. He is
determined to stay and influence how we position POL and
compensation so that he can effectively manage his own
reputation and that of UKGI."
Did Mr Read say that to you?
Well, I don't recognise that, and it's not consistent
with Mr Cooper having come to see me at the beginning of
November to say he felt he'd done his time on the Board
and wanted to move on.
I mean, he actually -- he gave me a deadline for
that. He said basically by the end of March 2023 and
I did request that time because I wanted to give very
careful consideration to who should replace him on the
board of the Post Office.
Did you discuss with Mr Cooper the reputation of UKGI
arising out of this sequence of unfortunate and, for
some people, deeply tragic events?
No, I don't recall discussing that.
Why not?
Because I don't think, you know, he is there to manage
4121
request to me of two weeks previously.
Whether he, Mr Cooper, at some point made comments
along those lines to Mr Read, I don't know.
Did Mr Cooper express anything to you about the slowness
of compensation, because we notice the fact that he is
determined to stay and influence how we position POL on
compensation, so that he can effectively manage his own
reputation, et cetera, et cetera.
Did Mr Cooper mention anything to you in your
discussions with him about the slowness of compensation?
I can't remember whether in the specific conversation at
the beginning of November he referenced compensation
More broadly, in our regular meetings did he in the past
reference slow progress on compensation? Yes.
And that was a complaint that he was making?
That he thought it was running too slowly?
Yes.
Yes.
‘And not simply necessarily slowly but also the levels of
compensation; was he concerned about that?
I think he would have been. I mean, I don't -
I remember very specifically we had a number of
conversations about the pace. I can't be precise as to
when he talked about levels.
Well, you think he would have been?
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his own reputation. He made a request ~
Iwas talking about UKGI, the reputation of UKGI.
So I believe that it is absolutely necessary —- and this
has been the case right from the moment when I took on
the CEO role in March 2020 ~ that UKGI learns all the
lessons it possibly can from this scandal and what went
wrong. I do not believe that reputational
considerations should stand in the way of those
learnings.
continue with Mr Read's words:
“He [that’s Mr Cooper] was on the board when the
judge was recused and fundamental questions were raised
over governance. This is a material conflict. He has
said to me on occasions he is going nowhere until the
Inquiry is over -- this is his core driver ... not the
long-term future of Post Office.”
Can you help, can you shed any light on that
sentence:
“He has said to me on occasions he is going nowhere
until the Inquiry is over -- this is his core driver
not the long-term future of the Post Office.”
In other words, did Mr Read ever raise any such
suggestion with you in your conversations with him?
He didn't and also, as I say, it doesn't appear to me
that that is entirely consistent with Mr Cooper's
122
As I say, I can't be precise as to whether he talked
about levels, but the pace absolutely.
But you think he would have been, you just said?
I think he would have been, yes.
Thank you
‘SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Henry,
Last questions.
Questioned by MS SHAH
MS SHAH: Sorry, can you hear me?
Yes, can.
Perfect. Good afternoon, Mr Donald. I ask questions on
behalf of the NFSP.
So you've given evidence today about improvements
made to the flow of information and risk escalation
between the Post Office, the Department, and UKGI.
However, the key findings of the Grant Thornton
report into the Post Office of this year shows
significant issues that continue to this day and that
much still needs to change in relation to openness and
transparency.
Just for the transcript no need to turn it up ~
the report is POLO0448771. Would you agree with that
assessment?
I would agree that much remains to be done, absolutely.
Would you accept that something more than improved
124
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policies and training is needed to rebuild postmasters’
and the public's trust in the government and the Post
Office after not only the Horizon scandal itself but,
for instance, the Grant Thorton report findings, the
evidence of the postmaster NEDs, the evidence of
Mr Staunton and the evidence of Mr Read to this Inquiry,
which show an organisation that is still in cultural
crisis and still lacking in openness and transparency?
A. So I think the training and the development you make
reference to is specifically one of the learnings that
we have sought to apply in UKGI. I don't think that
those leamings for UKGI are done and finished yet, and
there is more evidence to be heard from the Inquiry and
we will continue to listen to it and continue to reflect
and learn.
More specifically as to is there much more to be
done on the culture of the Post Office and the
organisation, I absolutely agree.
Q._ Would you agree that there's a particular concern that
it appears that there is still a willingness -- an
unwillingness, sorry, to acknowledge failings that seems
to exist even now. For example, the evidence of
Mr Ismail on 24 October in that he said that after the
first draft of the Grant Thornton report was received,
certain NEDs said that it was unhelpful and that the
125
there was -- and this reflects a conversation I've had
with her subsequently on this matter - was that there
was a lack of clarity in the Grant Thornton report, for
example, about her role and I think one of the actions
she took was to then send Grant Thorton her appointment
letter so that they got the clarity and the detail on
that role.
I don't know whether her “unhelpful” comment was
broader than that or whether it was on that specific
point.
MS SHAH: Thank you very much.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: I think that’s it, is it?
MR BLAKE: Thatis, yes, sir. Thank you
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Well, thank you very much, Mr Donald,
firstly, for making four witness statements and,
secondly, for answering all the questions which have
been put to you this morning and this afternoon. I'm
very grateful to you.
A. Thank you very much, sir.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: So we'll resume again at 10.00 on Monday
moming, Mr Blake.
MR BLAKE: We will, sir, yes, with our final week of
Phase 7.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: There's one issue which has been brought
to my attention and that is that Monday is actually
127
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first draft of the report was more critical than how it
isnow.
So would you agree with that concern?
A. So the version of the document that was disclosed to me
I think was an earlier version of the one that
I actually eventually saw just in the normal course of
business.
My understanding, because I've had a conversation
with Ms Gratton about it, was that the board saw,
lassume, the version that was disclosed to me as part
of my bundle, and the board collectively -- and I think
Mr Tidswell was chairing at this point because I think
this was after the removal of Mr Staunton -- was then
reflected back to Grant Thornton.
Q. Okay. Well, Mr Ismail's evidence was that the comment
regarding the Grant Thomton report being unhelpful was
said by the Shareholder NED, who I believe would be
Lorna Gratton. Would you accept that a comment that
that report was unhelpful does not demonstrate that UKGI
are embracing cultural change, openness and
transparency?
A. Sol think the question is whether how that comment in
the context of the board's overall discussion of the
draft was made. And I actually think that there was
a specific point that Ms Gratton had which was that,
126
Armistice Day and that in some organisations, which
I think include government organisations but not
necessarily judicial proceedings, a minute's silence is
observed at 11.00 am. I am perfectly content to have
a minute's silence if that is the collective view of all
the participants in the Inquiry. I don't propose to
impose my own view on it.
So can you just canvas what people would like to do
and then we will do what the majority wishes to do.
MR BLAKE: Thank you, sir. There are lots of nods in the
room.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: So that I can take it then that at
11.00 am there will be a minute's silence. There will
not be a public announcement in the building, as
I understand it, because -- well, there just won't be ~
so that I will be relying upon counsel who is on his or
her feet at that moment to alert me to it and then we'll
have the minute's silence.
MR BLAKE: Thank you, sir.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Thank you very much.
(2.04 pm)
(Adjourned until 10.00 am on Monday, 11 November 2024)
128
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INDEX
GARETH THOMAS MP (sworn)...
Questioned by MR STEVENS,
Questioned by MR STEIN . 49
Questioned by MS PAGE ... . 58
CHARLES HUNTER DONALD (swom) 63
Questioned by MR BLAKE ........ssesssee 63
Questioned by MR JACOBS ..... 107
Questioned by MR HENRY 17
Questioned by MS SHAH .... 124
129
(33) Pages 129 - 129
INQ00001204
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14 [1] 7/15 18/19 21/21 3018 [A accelerate [2] 7/6
TRELAKE D114 November 2024 I26 [1] 43/9 > rin
eae — I [1] 128/22 26 April [1] 63/12 eet Fa tela sors \accept [13] 19/11
ports sgi2t go/25\11 September [1] I26 August [1] 10/11/9714 19/14 20/3 23/12
407/12 117/7 127113 I 105 26 per cent [1] 15/18 I site f20] 10/17 16/22I 24/12 25/15 27/8
tovioe toerio.aoartoI 11-00 [1] 128/4 26 September [1] [pre ee I 27/14 29/13 60/2 61/8
MR HENRY: 11.00 am [4] 128/13 I 63/18 124/25 126/18
[1] 32/23 32/25 36/23
11.50 [1] 48/16 28 [4] 100/18 accepted [2] 32/17
117/13 39/5 42/2 49/19 53/22
. 11.57 [1] 62/21 29 [1] 115/14 34/13
MR vacoss: (2) (17-5771 @2int 54/3 59/11 69/6 77/4 ting [1] 60/15
107/16 117/5 1 [1] 3 91/16 98/3 12/4 Iaecepting [1]
12.15 [1] 62/17 access [5] 27/24
WITTE no. (1247 [1] 6223 [30a] S79 Sra I NIN 28/16 54/1 87/11
49/8 49/11 57/19 oe eel22 I 30 duly [2] 2/13 2/17 {about [122] 1/18 3/8 I 29/05
87/22 S815 15 ai 6/19 6/23 350 ti) 68/16 re date [1
MR STEVENS: [22] ted 1 pee Ser ee I torte 14/7 12/11 I aeeomnmodat e [1]
113 116 418 1112 1/20 382 TN 2 4 12/14 12/23 13/6 3) 43124
1125 20/19 20/23 21/9) 47 A See 40 [ay 108717 I 13/13 13/20 14713 IAecount 3)
aie 2ino 213/180) 4) 63/9 [40-day [1] 50/9 14/15 14/23 14/23 OT ities [1
29/25 40/4 44/24 agi] 19 February [1] Oe I era] 72/14 15/1 16/18 18/10 I @ecountabilities [1]
48/12 48/17 49/4/18 Per cont TL 47 per cent [1] 15/14I 18/23 18/24 1915 I (716
61/23 62/17 62/20/1020 Ia] BAe eee] 19/19 19/28 21117 IAccountabe La)
MS PAGE: [4] 48/18/1997 [1] 3/105 22/15 23/6 24/20 tone
48/20 58/20 61/20 I2 50 [2] 12/11 95124 I 25/14 25/14 25/22 -
MS SHAH: [2] 124/9 I> gay cay Garis 50 on (11 57/9 26/21 27/14 27/18 [Accounting [2] 72/21
427/11 2.08 fy 128/21 50,000 [3} 19/16 2016I 31/11 31/18 31/22 I TOE soon
SIR WYN WILLIAMS; 23/3 32/5 32/9 33/14 34/1
20 [2] 7/9 86/25 accurate [5] 5/21
[43] 4 7 tt aa tay 2713 500 [1] 19/10 34/t9 34/24 35/20 Iaccurate [5] SIT
4/17 1/23 20/12 20/20/20" 50k [2] 18/5 19/20 I 36/11 37/18 38/23
2007 [1] 66/19 [2] accurately [1] 94/3
20/24 21/7 2119 21111] >o48 toy 10/5 10/24 IS7 [1] 107/18 38/23 39/10 40/8 41/1/8004 1m
26/19 28/1 29/9 29/22 57 per cent [1] 15/17I 41/8 41/18 42/4 44/18] 2c nevements 1]
2016 [1] 65/3 p 78/19
29/24 40/3.43/16 I >o4g 3} Gali 6419 (aS 8120 455 47/13 Wt ledge [1
44/23 48/11 48/14 I“G4i09 6 47/13 47/16 48/15 I aynowledge [1]
48/25 57/17 57121 logs 21 6/20 74/3 [6-211] 79/1 49/20 50/8 52123 I JN a 30/18
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62/15 62/19 63/1 80/5] sore Ol SOLE 4) 58/25 59/5 59/9 59/14I 55/3 56/11 57/2 58/7 I 3919 40) 30/5 40/5
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: 2022 [3] 117/25 85,000 [2] ebio eels act [17] 37/9 37/10
THE WITNESS: [2] I448/4°401/1 89/3 89/6 92/8 93/2 I Pr A A arto aig
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2023 [1] 121/16 75,000 [22] 17/4 100/12 100/19 104/7 I 38/16 39/4 73/8 73/19)
, 2024 [19] 1/1 2/7 i 75/22 76/6 76/23
SS ity A7is tying I 1714 17/24 19110 I 105/9 105/23 1065 I 75/22 76/6 76/23
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1 May [1] 3/10 22 July [1] 17/12 Ig November 2024 [1]. actively [8] 14/8 14/8
1 Novernber 2022 [1] 22 September [1 a November 2024 [1] apoyo Oa oO 35/9 35/14 35/25 37/2
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4,000 [1] 1141/5 23 [3] 30/7 623 ee absolute [2] 76/13 crivities [1] 83/8
1.00 [4] 88/23 acts [1] 102/10
1.30 [4] 18/16 23 July [1] 18/12 Ig September [1] eens ve ae actual [1] 30/15
1.40 [1] 89/4 24 [1] 66/20 32/14 51/16 60/13 62/13 I actuality [1] 31/20
10 [1] 78/24 24 July [1] 30/14 94 [4] 72/14 67/16 71/8 81/17 84/3I actually [12] 16/25
10.00 [3] 1/2 127/20 I24 October [1] 92 per cent [1] 111/5I 95/12 86/8 93/7 95/12I 19/9 53/3 64/20 67/15
128/22 125/23 95,000 [4] 28/13 98/6 98/18 104/19 I 82/8 87/22 93/20
10.35 [4] 21/4 24 September [2] 2/7I98 per cent [1] 111/8I 414/8 114/9 117/21 I 121/15 126/6 126/24
10.48 [1] 21/6 toei2e 120/18 120/20 122/3 I 127/25
100 [1] 76/16 25 [2] 42/13 44/24 4124/2 124/24 125/18 Iacutely [2] 5/10 8/9
25 July [4] 17/3 adding [2] 51/15
(34) MR BLAKE: - adding
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agency [1] 44/13 101/12 106/12 111/4 I 51/16 62/12 65/10 98/21
sddina 141 51/15 (agenda [2] 7/8 12/7 I 120/1 120/13 122/24 I 65/24 67/17 72/9 74/6I approaching [2]
addition [4] 81/20 ago [2] 56/5 56/12 123/19 79/19 80/24 81/20 46/14 56/1
81/25 101/7 113/21 Iagree [12] 5/6 52/9 I although [4] 28/13 I 88/25 89/23 92/1 92/3) appropriate [21] 29/4I
additional [11] 6/2 52/14 52/15 54/11 76/5 102/21 113/16 I 92/7 92/8 92/16 96/6 I 34/25 67/16 68/10
7/14 11/6 16/7 39/10 60/5 79/7 124/22 always [9] 21/17 96/18 96/18 96/19 68/19 70/14 81/1
61/16 80/11 83/9 124/24 125/18 125/19] 53/20 57/11 67/19 97/22 101/6 104/16 I 83/10 93/11 98/19
87/20 120/24 121/5 126/3 92/5 93/16 98/14 104/24 106/9 109/10 I 99/10 99/12 99/15
address [10] 10/4 agreed [5] 19/4 24/2 I 100/3 106/15 116/22 117/5 119/17 I 100/3 105/24 106/5
35/9 35/10 45/9 57/3 30/9 52/8 90/23 am [38] 1/2 12/12 122/17 122/22 108/8 108/16 110/4
71/23 90/1 91/23 agreement [1] 115/7 I 15/6 21/4 21/6 32/3 Ianybody [2] 60/15 112/5 120/14
106/19 114/25 agreements [1] 32/16 34/8 34/15 35/6) 61/10 appropriately [3]
addressed [5] 65/25 115/4 35/12 38/19 39/3 anyone [3] 27/22 71/16 73/18 93/1
95/23 96/17 97/9 Ah [1] 49/9 50/23 54/8 56/22 72/9 102/20 approval [1] 17/3
973 ahead [1] 30/18 58/12 58/21 62/3 anything [7] 28/10 Iapprove [1] 17/7
addresses [2] 63/13 aim [1] 70/14 62/21 88/23 89/5 40/8 44/21 67/13 approves [1] 90/12
63/16 ALB [5] 80/19 80/25 I 89/16 89/16 89/21 68/23 123/4 123/9 April [1] 63/12
addressing [1] 63/19) 81/4 94/17 10316 92/3 101/23 105/19 I Anyway [1] 1/24 are [149]
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Adjourned [1] 128/22 ALBs [2] 74/11 128/4 128/4 128/13 I 6/20 48/19 91/13 aren't [3] 6/10 31/1
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attributed [1] 120/23 be [254] behalf [5] 15/13 bit [9] 18/17 24/4 78/22 81/6
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(36) ask... - branches
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ONT 20/24 21/5 39/19 40/18 42/10 I 38/19 38/23 74/14 Ichannel [5] 67/1 8/22 13/16 21/11 23/6
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89/9 91/3 48/14 48/24 48/25 [cast [1] 110/21 81/4 40/14 40/22 46/22
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brevity [1] 37/9 54/2 54/21 55/7 57/2 Icatch-up [1] 106/14 I 67/15 67/18 59/24 60/24 70/20
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sly ss Peart 72113 74113 74/13 I 15/16 15/17 15/18 I 120/1 129/6 40/13 42/6 57/1 65/22
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45/24 69/7 72/13 85/2 86/23 87/16 89/1] 119/21 106/15 client's [1] 52/3
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S76 122/17 123/7 124/9 I 71/8 85/18 88/8 chief [9] 41/17 64/7 I 103/20
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19/22 20/16 21/8 8/20 9/9 11/13 12/13 Ichilling [1] 104/13 I collective [2] 114/24
broadened [1] 66/16
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broadly [2] 67/19
123/13 35/24 36/5 36/9 56/2 I 12/15 15/7 15/24 choice [2] 25/25 26/6I 128/5
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59/6 127/24 124/1 39/23 40/22 46/7 54/8I chronological [1] 102/10 106/2 126/11
Brown [1] 3/12 candidate [1] 98/18 I 54/14 60/10 60/20 I 3/13 coloured [1] 102/19
budgets [1] 78/19 candidates [3] 93/8 I 61/19 75/15 85/5 chronology [2] 9/24 Icombination [1]
build [1] 94/11 93/11 98/13 105/25 18/11 74/25
building [1] 128/14 I¢annot [2] 22/15 cetera [3] 92/24 circumstance [1] come [34] 6/16 11/12
built [4] 50/10 35/16 123/8 123/8 103/22 14/24 19/13 22/11
bullet [1] 100/16 canvas [1] 128/8 —Ichain [1] 18/21 circumstances [7] _ I 24/1 29/7 29/11 34/9
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63/7 95/6 126/11 capability [1] 80/10 I 41/16 42/15 64/11 I 103/24 104/13 116/17) 56/8 58/9 69/24 69/25
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3/19 30/22 30/25 31/4I 114/9 96/10 96/16 96/18 I 104/4 81/11 84/15 84/24
32/13 52/24 52/25 . [Capita [1] 92/14 96/21 96/25 97/3 97/4I civil [4] 4/17 14/17 I 85/2 86/4 96/22 109/5
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119/10 126/7 19/15 19/20 Chair's [1] 103/21 28/3 28/4 28/9 28/12 Icomes [5] 19/9 46/12
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but [138] care [1] 116/9 Chairman [1] 100/15 Iclaimant [3] 16/12 I comfortable [2] 69/6
—____—+_—_Icareer [1] 64/16 chairs [1] 119/13 26/6 31/24 83/9
Cc careful [4] 53/22 challenge [8] 15/1 Iclaimant's [1] 16/20 Icomforted [1] 102/12]
Cabinet [2] 4/20 4/22I 83/12 92/22 121/18 I 15/6 69/17 74/11 claimants [5] 18/8 I coming [16] 6/22
call (2) $3717 6218 Carl [1] 5/6 83/11 100/8 102/5 I 23/22 23/24 32/20 ‘I 7/11 16/3 31/21 34/17
came [5] 31/3 65/2 [carried [3] 15/12 I 103/14 50/7 34/22 36/21 51/10
66/12 102/15 113/3. I 15/13 42/18 challenging [6] 67/25Iclaimants' [6] 16/17 I 56/14 58/12 61/25
can [113] 1/3 1/6 1/7 earry [3] 1/24 21/10 I 68/1 68/4 69/7 69/9 I 31/18 33/9 36/20 37/2I 80/21 101/26 104/9
10 1/23 1/24 3/2 I 89/24 85/19 50/25 111/16 119/19
6/13 12/14 13/15 carrying [1] 28/17 Ichance [4] 8/7 8/19 Iclaims [8] 16/5 16/9 Icomment [6] 90/25
13/20 13/23 15/3: [ease [21] 5/21 5/25 I 40/10 61/15 22/10 29/7 36/21 106/1 126/15 126/18
46/18 17/7 17/11 23/4 26/15 27/10 Ichange [12] 2/18 _I 36/22 37/3 50/15 126/22 127/8
47/18 18/11 19/14 27/10 27/12 28/15 2/22 41/1 41/21 42/1 Iclarification [4] comments [1] 123/2
49/13 20/10 20/24 ‘I 32/2133/234/13 I 52/23 53/554/19 I 21/18 21/22 32/10 _ Icommercial [2] 55/3
40/13 59/18 67/15 55/16 119/6 124/19 I 113/16 68/17
(37) branches... - commercial
INQ00001204
INQ00001204
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commission [1] completing [1] 25/20I 31/9 51/13 98/8 contributory [1] 86/3} 30/12 32/14 33/21
4101/4 completion [1] 75/3 Iconsequential [4] control [1] 112/4 48/23 49/4 51/21 54/7)
commissioned [5] complex [6] 6/11 24/5 24/23 25/4 25/21I controversy [2] 92/1 I 66/6 71/16 73/23
43/10 43/19 96/9 14/4 37/6 68/4 68/8 I consequently [1] 92/3 75/17 77/3 83/23 87/2
68/17 119/3 conversation [13] 89/25 90/19 93/14
106/22 107/5
commissioning [2]
96/19 100/13
commitment [2] 33/7
58/22
commitments [1] 7/1
Committee [12]
30/22 31/1 31/5 50/6
50/20 50/22 58/11
65/21 73/10 73/13
80/14 80/19
Commons [2] 2/17
58/13
communicate [1]
62/10
communicated [2]
81/5 81/19
communicating [2]
80/18 80/20
communication [5]
73/14 81/20 81/23
82/9 82/10
communications [3]
10/3 11/14 37/16
communities [2]
54/16 57/5
companies [3] 67/9
76/16 105/2
company [14] 40/5
67/12 76/7 92/14
92/24 97/2 102/1
105/15 106/8 115/22
115/24 116/2 118/12
118/23
company ... to [1]
116/2
company's [3]
100/21 101/20 102/2
compensation [50]
5/5 5/8 5/11 5/14 7/1
7/6 7/15 7/20 7/21
7/22 7/25 8/2 8/8 8/11
8/14 8/17 9/5 9/6 9/9
9/14 12/22 14/2 14/5
14/9 16/8 25/7 30/21
30/25 31/5 31/12 35/8)
35/17 39/7 40/2 51/6
51/7 52/6 56/8 56/25
57/1 57/24 65/10 66/3)
121/8 123/5 123/7
123/10 123/12 123/14]
123/20
compiled [1] 96/14
complaint [1] 123/15
complete [3] 15/18
24/4 24/22
completed [1] 117/2
completely [2] 13/15
comply [1] 115/23
component [1] 67/21
components [3] 69/2
69/15 107/10
comprehensive [2]
66/6 73/18
computer [2] 62/3
85/24
concept [5] 72/2 72/3}
76/12 83/20 118/11
concern [11] 48/1
48/2 70/22 104/2
106/10 106/12 106/16)
111/14 114/7 125/19
126/3
concerned [4] 40/8
45/11 109/19 123/20
concerning [1]
107/20
concerns [29] 13/5
13/13 13/20 14/23
21/21 31/15 45/5
45/14 80/15 81/3
81/18 82/7 82/15 83/2
85/1 92/8 94/2 102/4
104/24 107/20 108/5
109/11 109/25 110/1
110/17 111/11 111/13)
112/15 113/4
conclusions [1]
conduct [2] 42/15
82/17
conducted [1]
110/12
conducts [1] 119/1
conferences [1]
40/25
confidence [3] 31/20
46/6 46/25
confident [4] 16/4
16/10 34/17 36/22
confidential [2]
100/23 101/18
confidentiality [2]
101/21 102/4
confirm [5] 3/2 31/7
49/2 63/24 64/2
confirmed [2] 91/7
108/11
conflict [1] 122/13
conflicted [1] 102/8
conflicts [6] 92/9
92/17 92/18 92/23
92/25 93/2
conjunction [1]
99/12
conscience [1] 59/3
consider [18] 16/11
18/9 23/25 44/21
47/25 54/7 54/8 66/11
68/9 68/23 70/8 71/3
80/3 81/9 99/6 108/2
108/14 115/22
considerable [2]
66/4 106/8
consideration [9] 4/6
6/13 17/16 44/18 50/1
53/23 58/24 70/17
121/18
considerations [2]
60/24 122/8
considered [5] 36/13
54/22 94/23 108/15
110/4
considering [2]
101/6 120/6
consistent [3] 22/25
121/11 122/25
constant [2] 84/1
87/4
constituency [3]
11/17 34/11 71/18
constituent [1] 34/12
constitute [1] 65/7
constrained [1] 83/7
constraint [1] 118/14
construct [4] 76/12
76/14 76/15 92/13
consultation [4]
33/16 41/9 42/18 55/9
consultees [1] 44/4
consulting [5] 16/11
31/17 31/24 43/13
44/3
contact [1] 78/11
contained [1] 99/6
content [4] 18/21
59/9 109/1 128/4
contents [1] 3/3
context [4] 44/20
58/25 67/10 126/23
continually [1] 12/13
continuation [1] 53/2
continue [13] 21/16
34/21 46/8 51/2 59/15
75/15 89/1 89/8 89/10
122/10 124/18 125/14
125/14
continued [3] 11/13
11/15 11/16
continues [3] 78/13
110/5 116/10
continuing [3] 34/18
51/11 110/20
contributing [1]
16/24 41/6 82/7 111/3)
117/14 117/24 117/25)
119/21 120/8 121/2
123/11 126/8 127/1
conversations [15]
14/13 16/17 33/12
55/11 55/14 71/12
71/14 81/16 82/1 97/7
97/9 107/9 119/16
122/23 123/23
convicted [2] 37/23
59/1
convictions [15] 2/14!
7/18 7/20 36/15 36/17
37/1 37/12 37/19
38/10 38/24 38/25
39/18 59/2 60/13 61/2
Cooper [18] 66/5
81/14 100/11 102/17
117/15 117/19 118/1
118/1 120/6 120/9
121/3 121/3 121/12
121/20 122/11 123/2
123/4 123/9
Cooper's [1] 122/25
cooperation [1]
40/15
core [9] 41/20 41/22
48/10 74/9 81/16
88/25 107/10 122/15
122/20
corporate [5] 10/3
39/25 63/11 77/21
78/22
correct [25] 2/20
2/20 2/22 3/11 4/1
22/5 37/14 46/21
50/21 64/8 64/9 64/11
64/19 65/15 65/16
66/22 76/10 76/21
79/2 79/3 80/6 91/11
108/20 109/16 115/12)
corrected [1] 7/16
correction [2] 2/10
3/2
correctly [5] 73/14
80/18 80/20 93/6
109/10
correlation [1] 56/13
correspondence [3]
13/7 17/20 91/2
cost [4] 19/8 23/8
70/17 71/24
costs [3] 26/17 81/18
81/19
could [44] 1/20 2/21
2/24 6/18 10/2 11/8
11/9 11/23 12/23
95/12 99/16 107/16
114/12 115/5 115/8
115/13 116/16 116/20)
117/22 118/15 118/17)
120/17 120/17 120/22)
counsel [14] 100/21
101/4 101/12 102/2
103/23 108/2 112/19
112/20 112/21 113/6
113/22 113/22 113/24)
128/16
counter [2] 35/4
35/23
counterpart [1] 38/1
counterparts [1]
37/21
counterparty [1]
114/6
country [1] 54/16
course [8] 20/19 53/9I
58/9 66/17 66/18 70/4,
113/11 126/6
Court [1] 66/2
courtesy [1] 11/11
cover [1] 39/13
covered [3] 26/18
35/5 35/6
covering [1] 20/15
CPS [2] 38/10 110/22
create [2] 7/21 83/21
created [3] 61/16
71/9 84/10
creating [1] 93/20
creation [1] 30/9
Credit [2] 64/11
64/12
Credit Suisse [2]
64/11 64/12
Creswell [4] 8/15
8/18 37/13 39/14
Creswell's [2] 5/6 9/2I
crisis [2] 65/6 125/8
criteria [1] 93/19
critical [1] 126/1
criticised [1] 110/20
criticism [1] 53/18
criticisms [1] 51/10
cross [1] 120/18
cross-wire [1]
120/18
crossed [1] 10/14
crucial [1] 44/6
crucially [1] 45/16
crystallise [1] 74/9
cultural [12] 41/21
42/1 53/5 54/18 55/16
55/16 110/23 112/6
112/10 112/13 125/7
(38) commission - cultural
INQ00001204
INQ00001204
Cc 46/3 47/3 52/6 57/25 IDepartments [1] 50/2 105/10 105/15 I 112/9 112/14 114/6
———________I 64/22 84/14 92/19 I 75/23 difficulty [2] 1/4 126/23
rire Decale 103/5 113/5 depend [1] 13/16 I 20/13 discussions [6]
40/6 40/9 40/11 40/19IDear [1] 10/6 described [3] 31/24 Idigital [2] 84/19 42/22 42/25 100/12
41/2 41/24 42/11 debating [1] 28/6 102/22 103/15 84/20 112/11 114/17 123/10)
42/16 54/12 57/3 December [1] 121/1 Idesigned [1] 91/6 direct [3] 13/19 33/6 I dismaying [1] 50/16
84/10 88/12 109/19 December 23 [1] desirable [1] 115/22 I 48/3 dispute [1] 105/12
109/25 112/16 125/17 121/1 desk [1] 49/6 direction [8] 8/22 distance [2] 120/25
curiosity [1] 69/17 decide [3] 28/2 28/17I detail [16] 18/16 55/16 56/3 56/10 121/16
curious [2] 84/3 29/13 18/24 19/23 26/16 57/25 90/12 111/23 I distinct [1] 74/19
85/19 decision [13] 24/8 I 31/19 32/4 35/13 111/24 rse [1] 93/21
current [9] 32/1 24/20 25/14 25/16 I 47/11 47/13 56/23 directions [1] 112/1 I diversity [1] 93/16
32/28 42/3 45/8 71/24) 20/9 30/17 31/16 83/20 97/10 99/11 directive [1] 47/15 Ido [113] 2/4 2/24 3/1
96/24 1085/8 108/10 I 39/2146/15 46/19 I 106/3 114/14 127/6 Idirectly [7] 16/19 I 5/6 6/13 8/1 11/3
115/10 47/22 67/8 98/8 detailed [4] 22/20 37/21 45/14 55/24 12/12 12/14 12/20
currently [10] 49/16 [decisions [2] 36/19 I 23/20 73/18 105/20 I 108/16 109/15 110/18) 12/23 13/20 14/17
64/7 70/22 77/19 78/5I “8/20 details [7] 9/19 9/20 Idirector [39] 10/4 I 15/21 22/18 24/1 25/5]
98/16 98/17 105/13 deck [2] 95/5 95/13 I 30/3 32/7 50/8 50/15 I 67/7 69/19 73/7 73/16) 26/17 27/1 27/14
105/15 116/24 Decommissioning [1] 50/18 74/13 75/18 76/13 I 27/16 28/6 29/5 29/5
customer [1] 74/14 68/5 determined [4] 13/23] 76/22 80/16 81/2 29/20 34/17 35/9
cwu [1] 41/13 deeply [2] 119/5 67/4 121/7 123/6 81/13 82/1 83/8 85/16] 35/11 35/18 36/5
———_+—_______I 121/22 determines [2] 67/2 I 86/10 86/16 88/3 88/4I 36/18 38/4 38/5 38/21
D defines [1] 83/25 110/6 88/14 88/21 90/7 92/5I 40/18 44/7 44/17
daily [2] 14/21 15/8 definition [2] 83/25 Idevelop [2] 83/19 92/17 94/11 94/17 46/15 46/17 49/4 51/2
damaged [1] 50/13 88/5 87/2 96/4 96/21 101/8 51/12 52/9 52/13
damages [1] 39/20 degree [3] 57/12 developed [2] 74/3 I 104/15 108/1 111/15 I 52/15 54/17 55/13
danger [1] 86/19 57/12 83/11 74/23 112/12 113/3 113/21 I 55/15 55/18 57/2 57/2)
dangers [1] 86/21 delay [3] 18/23 50/10Ideveloping [2] 31/22 I 114/21 117/16 119/9 I 57/3 57/4 61/10 62/14!
dare [1] 28/5 92/7 75/11 120/16 63/21 63/23 66/10
data [1] 29/7 delegated [1] 91/15 Idevelopment [12] Director's [1] 86/5 67/13 67/22 68/9
date [6] 13/2 26/8 delegation [2] 91/7 I 3/14 74/22 81/7 81/19I directors [20] 41/11 I 68/19 68/23 70/8 71/3)
34/2 36/5 58/17 75/14I 91/9 85/9 86/21 86/24 41/12 75/22 76/18 71/6 71/21 72/8 73/2
dated [6] 2/7 63/9 deleted [1] 39/6 94/24 95/19 103/4 85/6 87/8 87/19 88/19] 73/5 75/8 75/16 76/4
63/12 63/15 63/18 deletion [2] 38/16 114/14 125/9 90/2 91/25 92/15 79/7 79/11 80/3 80/21
116/22 39/4 diary [1] 111/16 92/22 93/4 94/7 94/20] 81/8 85/4 85/8 85/24
dates [1] 58/6 deliver [2] 68/18 80/8I did [34] 4/3 4/16 9/16I 95/15 100/17 109/22 I 86/12 87/16 88/10
Davies [5] 10/3 10/9 delivered [3] 7/2 14/6] 10/9 11/11 11/12 113/13 116/2 89/5 90/15 90/18 93/5)
10/23 11/11 82/5 37/6 19/21 19/21 24/5 24/8I disappointing [1] 94/5 94/8 94/15 95/7
day [21] 4/11 4/11 delivery [5] 7/14 8/14I 33/19 49/24 52/19 119/5 95/12 97/22 97/25
4/13 4/13 8/19 10/15 I 12/20 13/24 14/2 65/10 65/24 69/23 disappointing ... and I 98/20 99/6 102/24
11/4 11/13 11/19 demonstrate [1] 91/23 92/8 101/16 [1] 119/5 104/10 104/24 105/14)
44/19 13/2 13/2 13/10] 126/19 109/20 117/16 117/17) discharged [1] 37/14) 107/6 108/14 109/12
43/10 18/12 50/4 50/9Iden [1] 10/23 119/16 120/4 120/5 Idisclose [2] 101/17 I 111/25 112/4 118/24
51/18 87/10 124/18 Idepartment [59] 3/14] 120/20 120/21 121/10) 102/3 119/8 119/14 122/7
1428/1 3/19 3/24 3/24 4/3 121/17 121/20 122/22I disclosed [6] 100/20 I 128/8 128/9 128/9
days [3] 10/7 58/4 4/16 8/16 9/4 13/6 123/4 123/9 123/13 I 101/19 101/22 118/11] document [31] 21/14
87/23 14/1 15/21 16/11 didn't [14] 4/10 4/10 I 126/4 126/10 21/19 24/1 74/5 74/6
DBT [2] 30/10 42/14 I 30/23 38/13 38/14 I 11/19 20/3 24/7 27/20Idisconnect [1] 21/1 I 75/4 7/4 77/6 79/9
DBT-administered 41/20 41/22 41/25 29/20 65/12 69/15 discrepancies [3] 79/21 79/22 82/19
[1] 30/10 43/18 43/19 47/21 I 86/17 101/4 109/23 I 45/6 45/10 46/13 85/2 100/4 100/22
deadline [4 34/9 I 59/4 59/17 60/7 62/11] 120/5 122/24 discuss [9] 10/17 I 103/17 103/20 103/25
34/15 34/25 121/15 I 87/5 67/20 72/20 _I difference [6] 13/23 I 11/4 18/15 19/3 87/1 I 107/11 111/18 111/19
deadlines [3] 36/11 I 72/24 73/15 73/21 I 13/24 28/13 28/14 I 100/18 104/3 116/3 I 112/18 113/17 113/18
36/12 36/13 77/7 78/4 78/6 78/9 I 85/6 105/12 121/20 115/6 115/11 115/13
deal [7] 45/22 52/11 I 79/6 81/5 81/20 82/2 Idifferent [14] 5/19 Idiscussed [8] 8/15 I 116/21 117/3 118/15
91/18 103/3 113/8 I 82/4 82/11 84/5 84/18I 22/14 23/17 24/19 I 16/19 19/2 21/22 126/4
113/13 114/23 84/22 85/1 87/12 I 26/20 29/25 35/2 I 45/12. 52/22 100/19 Idocumenting [1]
dealing [5] 51/19 I 1094/1 106/16 108/7,_ I 40/20 44/10 47/17 I 106/24 7417
55/23 68/11 98/20 I 108/14 109/1 109/3 I 68/15 96/10 104/24 I discussing [3] 42/20 Idocuments [3] 2/4
105/22 109/7 11113 112/4 I 113/2 54/20 121/23 105/9 118/10
deals [3] 38/16 39/4 I 112/9 11215 17/3 Idifficult [7] 1/18 40/8 Idiscussion [14] 4/17 Idoes [24] 12/8 15/25
65/5 124/15 44/6 50/12 54/5 97/25) 41/1 57/12 85/10 I 18/25 23/10 23/13
dealt [11] 37/6 46/2 [Departmental [1] I 104/16 91/21 96/16 105/21 I 25/2 25/22 26/7 29/11
108/17 difficulties [4] 49/18 I 107/1 109/1 111/14 I 38/13 45/8 55/6 56/13
(39) cultural... - does
INQ00001204
1NQ00001204
D 122/20 18/25 30/13 59/23 I 123/8 75/22 76/13 76/17
does...[14] 5619 IAtiver ... not [1] 90/21 91/12.91/19 let cetera [2] 123/8 I 76/22 79/2 79/5 80/14I
64/1 76/6 90/3 95/25 I 122/15 100/9 100/10 118/18 I 123/8 80/15 81/2 81/12 83/5
98/12 101/19 108/23 driving [1] 42/1 embracing [1] evaluate [2] 75/5 83/8 85/6 85/11 85/11
113/15 113/16 126/19I dropped [1] 4/10 126/20 95/25 85/12 85/16 86/5
doesn't [8] 20/20 [due [3] 66/18 70/4 employed [1] 76/15 Jeven [7] 26/5 79/17 I 86/10 86/15 87/8
27/11 43/9 79/4 7918 I 1168 employee [1] 92/15 I 90/16 102/19 104/12 I 87/19 88/3 88/4 88/5
410/16 119/2 122/24 [during [3] 13/3 17/23Iemployees [1] 35/3 I 105/11 125/22 88/14 88/19 88/21
dog [1] 52/3 110/15 empowered [1] event [1] 89/20 90/2 90/7 91/24 92/15)
doing [5] 9/21 15/7 [duty [2] 37/10 37/13 I 82/26 events [1] 121/22 _ I 92/17 92/21 93/3 94/6}
33/22 95/8 95/21 DW [1] 38/19 enable [1] 32/20 eventually [1] 126/6 I 94/11 94/16 95/15
don't [72] 2/11 5/10 [DWP [1] 38/23 encourage [2] 51/2 lever [4] 70/9 75/13 I 96/4 96/20 100/17
5/20 10/19 11/5 11/10] dynamic [3] 88/12 I 119/24 95/19 122/22 104/15 106/4 106/11
15/12 15/25 16/25 I 88/15. 88/16 encouraged [2] every [8] 7/2 8/7 9/9 I 109/21 111/15 113/3
22120 2313 23113 IB *«I 37/20. 7518 10/25 20/21 23/17 I 113/13 114/20 117/16
34/25 26/2 28/11 30/7 == I end [12] 33/20 33/24 I 80/23 87/10 119/9 120/14 120/16
40/5 43/6 44/2. 44/3 each [3] 5/1857/5 I 33/24 36/25 48/16 —_ everybody [1] 41/23 I executives [5] 83/4
44/4 48/8 50/23 60/3 I 17/9 53/14 53/24 61/7 everyone [4] 59/7 I 86/17 87/12 95/9
66/24 66/25 67/1 earlier [9] 8/1 8/9 I 75/14 78/13 118/4 I 59/14 59/21 92/12 I 119/13
70/13 75/12 75/13 I 00/22 83/17 89/19 I 121/16 everyone's [1] 77/13 Iexercise [2] 112/4
76/11 76/11 84/16 94/9 106/7 107/19 I endeavour [1] everything [1] 116/7
paid ssia esis I 1205 115/16 102/13 exercised [1] 116/14
86/14 87/6 87/12 early [16] 10/15 11/4 I endeavours [1] evidence [55] 3/6 5/6Iexert [1] 59/21
87/22 88/8 91/19 11/13 12/16 33/20 __I 115/23 7/25 8/18 8/20 9/2 _ I exerting [1] 59/19
91/22 92/3 92/6 93/9 I 2/21 33/25 34/8 35/7I energy [1] 97/11 11/7 13/3 13/8 14/15 Iexhibited [1] 21/19
93/12 93/23 94/8 40/24 45/13 47/9 enforcement [3] 66/1I 15/19 21/18 22/14 exist [1] 125/22
95/19 95/19 98/6 54/21 56/19 58/8 90/3] 105/10 106/9 22/22 24/6 24/7 25/1 \existed [1] 74/7
98/15 101/7 102/19 I@@™mings [1] 45/7 enforcing [1] 105/15 I 33/3 37/13 38/24 45/5) existing [1] 46/25
103/16 104/4 1095/6 /ears [1] 77/1 engage [2] 11/15 49/18 49/23 51/18 exists [2] 24/15
408/20 107/1 109/20 I@8ily [21 49/1 70/25 I 11/16 51/19 51/20 52/21 I 87/14
4117/5 119/9 119/20 I®asy [4] 28/2 28/6 Iengagement [3] 56/9 56/12 61/25 62/2I expand [1] 112/20
421/11 124/23 191/25] 28/10 29/12 11/20 82/23 90/8 68/22 70/21 75/9 expanded [1] 39/16
4123/3 123/21 125/11 [economically [1] ensure [7] 7/1 30/17 I 79/25 83/16 85/22 —_ expect [14] 17/22
4127/8 128/6 7216 77/11 87/6 93/15 86/9 87/7 87/13 95/4 I 20/10 33/15 34/20
educating [1] 94/6 I 100/6 108/7 97/21 105/11 108/10 I 35/18 35/21 36/5 43/8
Donald [14] 62/25 .
63/2 63/6 63/7 ag/6 Ieducation [1] 94/21 Iensures [1] 46/19 I 109/18 109/20 110/10] 46/23 55/15 96/20
110/25 117/14 119/6 [effect [9] 15/22 43/18/ensuring [1] 75/11 I 111/20 124/13 125/5 I 103/19 104/2 109/13
418/20 119/24 120/1 I 44/7 59/6 60/1 61/18 I Enterprise [1] 3/19 I 125/5 125/6 125/13 expected [1] 8/24
62/3 80/1 104/14 entirely [5] 6/7 47/14 I 125/22 126/15 expenditure [1]
done (19) IM effective [1] 68/25 I 115/9 117/7 122/25 evolution [1] 75/13 I 78/20
54/14 57/6 60/21 effectively [6] 59/6 entitled [7] 5/22 27/4 Iexact [1] 43/6 expense [2] 8/14
70/11 82/22 B46 88/16 102/13 121/3 I 59/7 59/11 59/15 60/8I exactly [6] 36/3 36/3 I 8/24
98/25 102/14 112/11 I 1218 123/7 60/17 87/1 114/16 119/11 Iexperience [11]
114/15 118/5 18/6 I*ffectiveness [4] entity [2] 72/4 72/5 I 119/19 34/11 65/17 71/3 93/2!
4124/4 124/13 124/24 I 99/23 96/2 96/9 96/19I environment [2] examining [1] 106/3 I 93/4 93/12 93/18
125/12 125/17 efforts [1] 9/8 83/21 84/10 example [21] 5/25 I 93/19 97/11 104/22
door [2] 995913 [eght [1] 55/24 equal [1] 8/17 28/9 66/25 69/22 70/4 114/24
doubt [1] 27/5 either [5] 8/18 16/14 Iequipped [1] 69/9 I 81/6 84/16 84/21 experienced [2]
down [16] 7/9 18/18 I 288 35/17 103/7 equity [3] 64/16 84/21 96/1197/24 I 29/17 105/7
24/1 24/14 25/15 26/3/ elderly [1] 61/6 64/17 76/16 102/7 105/4 105/16 experiences [1]
29/21 31/7 31/16 election [2] 4/25 9/16Iescalate [1] 83/10 I 106/7 110/18 112/23 I 96/24
54/16 79/1 79/23 a5/2\element [1] 96/3 escalated [1] 84/4 I 112/23 113/14 125/22) experiencing [1]
97/10 100/10 107/23 [elements [5] 54/10 escalating [2] 82/14 I 127/4 103/6
draft [4] 109/14 81/16 86/19 96/11 107/20 examples [1] 92/13 Iexpert [1] 100/5
125/24 126/1 126/24 I 118/9 escalation [4] 82/20 IExcellent [2] 1/12 expertise [1] 104/22
drafting (3] 53/15 IClevates [1]_5/6 83/20 106/17 124/14 I 21/13 experts [3] 43/10
90/16 90/17 eligible [2] 7/19 32/1 Iessence [1] 83/10 _Iexceptional [1] 83/6 I 43/12 43/19
draw [1] 29/5 else [5] 6/12 12/14 I essentially [12] 52/2 IExec [1] 92/5 explain [1] 101/19
drawing [1] 51/16 I 16/22, 40/18 89/2 56/11 58/1 64/13 _—_Iexecutive [73] 41/11 Iexplained [1] 22/6
drawn [1] 28/23 elsewhere [3] 87/14 I 64/25 73/8 74/5 77/13] 41/12 41/17 44/13 I explaining [1] 76/4
drilled [4] 86/20 93/15 112/24 81/17 82/4 86/25 64/8 65/2 65/13 65/21I explanation [1]
drive [1] 75/15 email [17] 10/2 10/4 I 114/21 67/6 69/2 69/5 69/6 I 101/16
10/19 10/21 17/10 _Iestablish [1] 89/15 I 69/10 69/18 72/25 _I explicit [1] 79/18
ariver [2] 122115 17/11 18/12 18/18 let [3] 92/24 123/8 _I 73/7 73/16 74/4 75/18I explore [2] 20/1
(40) does... - explore
INQ00001204
INQ00001204
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explore... [1] 23/25
exploring [1] 7/14
export [1] 12/2
Exports [1] 1/14
express [1] 123/4
expressed [1] 109/24I
expressing [1] 29/10
extend [1] 87/20
extended [1] 57/20
extent [3] 42/21
69/10 104/10
externally [1] 96/6
extra [2] 14/1 50/10
extract [1] 85/15
extremely [1] 92/6
extremis [1] 109/9
eyes [1] 77/2
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cing [4] 72/19 73/3
9/11 104/9
ct [9] 17/14 19/10
0/9 76/6 86/23 93/7
02/15 109/16 123/5
factor [1] 86/4
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ils [1] 118/22
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5/22 46/19 58/23
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ult [2] 115/9 117/7
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fearful [4] 85/17 86/6
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6.
3/9 65/13
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50/12 50/13 60/13
60/15 61/3 61/4 61/8
61/11 73/17 82/24
83/1 83/6 83/8 107/7
114/21
feels [1] 89/6
feet [2] 58/13 128/17
felt [9] 24/17 28/25
29/3 29/14 60/16
60/16 102/6 118/5
121/13
few [5] 3/8 5/2 59/24
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fight [2] 60/4 60/4
figure [1] 22/10
fill [1] 15/11
final [9] 53/19 59/10
59/20 60/3 64/12
75/20 105/8 116/21
127/22
finalised [1] 47/23
Finally [1] 63/18
financial [14] 55/12
64/18 64/22 64/24
64/25 65/2 65/3 65/6
65/20 67/10 70/6
77/22 78/18 78/19
financially [3] 70/24
72/5 72/7
find [6] 11/9 16/22
28/5 29/12 50/11
50/14
finding [1] 56/15
findings [3] 66/2
124/16 125/4
fine [6] 48/11 62/13
62/15 62/19 89/11
104/19
finish [1] 89/19
finished [2] 33/17
125/12
finishing [1] 95/20
fire [1] 58/13
firm [4] 107/4
first [23] 34/14 46/5
47/6 48/17 48/23
52/10 59/5 62/1 63/9
64/16 65/17 74/2
83/13 87/24 89/5
94/20 100/16 108/25
112/8 117/9 119/7
125/24 126/1
first-time [1] 94/20
firstly [1] 127/15
fit [1] 75/12
five [7] 48/12 48/13
57/17 57/20 87/23
117/8 118/4
fix [1] 20/16
fixed [29] 5/18 5/20
17/4 17/14 17/21 18/2)
18/6 18/7 18/9 19/7
19/14 19/16 20/3 22/1
22/9 23/8 23/15 23/25
24/18 26/5 26/23
26/23 26/24 26/24
27/2 27/11 27/12
28/20 29/3
fixed-cost [1] 23/8
fixed-sum [7] 5/18
5/20 17/4 22/1 22/9
23/15 24/18
fixed-term [2] 26/23
26/24
flag [9] 82/19 83/13
83/23 84/4 84/13
84/14 84/23 110/24
114/10
flagged [2] 42/9 51/1
flaws [1] 98/21
floor [2] 59/7 59/8
flow [5] 14/15 76/3
99/14 104/7 124/14
flows [1] 69/4
focused [4] 74/11
80/7 88/9 88/15
focusing [4] 6/17
9/19 9/19 54/13
focussing [1] 106/3
follow [10] 27/2
27/15 27/16 28/1
29/22 29/22 33/7
58/21 109/20 109/23
followed [1] 109/23
following [4] 17/21
18/12 58/24 100/13
follows [2] 72/16
91/3
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forecasts [1] 78/18
forget [2] 27/2 27/9
form [6] 15/10 15/20
16/13 24/22 25/20
58/16
formal [2] 94/8
114/18
formally [1] 17/7
forms [2] 96/10 98/2
formulating [1] 114/1
forward [22] 14/24
16/3 19/13 33/17
34/10 34/17 34/22
37/3 37/25 40/16 41/3
46/9 47/19 48/7 53/6
53/25 54/3 54/17
58/14 60/6 106/4
108/22
found [6] 15/14 15/15
15/16 15/17 15/18
59/1
four [11] 12/10 56/1
56/4 56/22 63/8 63/21
63/25 119/4 119/17
119/20 127/15
fourth [3] 63/18
72/13 117/22
framework [7] 79/20
103/17 103/20 115/4
115/7 115/11 116/21
frankly [3] 50/12
50/15 56/4
Fraser [1] 96/1
free [1] 18/15
Freedom [3] 104/11
104/21 105/4
Friday [2] 1/1 89/20
front [3] 2/4 63/7
63/21
frustration [1] 6/7
FTSE [1] 76/16
Fujitsu [1] 105/13
fulfil [1] 118/22
fulfilling [1] 78/16
full [33] 1/21 1/22 5/5)
5/13 5/23 5/24 6/4
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14/19 15/2 23/4 28/23)
58/23 59/10 59/20
60/3 60/12 60/14 63/4
69/5 69/23
fuller [3] 24/15 25/8
26/1
fullness [2] 5/8 8/5
fully [5] 16/9 43/6
43/7 108/15 108/15
function [17] 72/18
73/2 73/3 73/5 73/6
76/1 76/9 76/19 78/16
80/9 80/9 84/1 84/20
84/23 114/3 114/4
116/8
functioning [1] 55/4
functions [2] 74/20
87/20
fund [3] 25/17 26/9
68/7
fundamental [3] 70/6
107/8 122/12
funder [1] 74/13
funding [2] 24/20
26/25
further [26] 18/18
19/24 21/18 21/18
34/21 37/4 37/4 40/1
48/8 51/4 51/5 62/7
62/12 82/15 82/19
82/25 88/24 90/25
91/2 91/4 93/9 101/11
107/21 107/23 117/5
117/8
future [23] 4/7 4/7
12/24 41/8 42/4 42/21
43/11 44/11 44/19
45/3 45/6 47/20 54/10
54/24 57/3 58/1 62/8
85/25 86/13 102/25
116/19 122/16 122/21
G
gap [2] 35/10 39/13
gaps [4] 12/22 14/9
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GARETH [6] 1/15
1/22 10/6 11/2 82/5
129/2
Gary [1] 37/1
gatherings [1]
114/19
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15/19 17/3 22/22
37/13 51/18 70/20
100/22 101/24 102/14)
108/10 109/18 117/19)
121/15
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23/7 82/1 99/24
101/12 102/2 102/9
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112/13 112/19 112/19)
112/21 113/21 113/22)
113/24
generally [1] 53/8
generate [1] 98/12
generosity [2] 52/7
52/13
generous [3] 26/12
29/16 57/17
genuine [1] 51/17
get [34] 6/14 13/17
13/17 13/22 15/3
16/21 19/10 20/11
23/14 24/11 25/6 26/1
27/4 29/17 33/10 37/3
37/24 47/12 51/3
53/13 53/23 55/2 56/8;
56/23 56/24 59/10
60/3 61/4 66/5 75/13
80/12 94/1 97/12
112/21
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9/8 15/4 29/3 37/5
40/11 47/4 48/21
51/17 52/11 55/4
85/13 94/13 103/11
106/4 116/18
give [21] 13/15 13/19
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33/18 35/13 35/24
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49/21 57/8 61/14
61/25 63/4 75/24
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given [21] 4/6 6/4
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38/2 39/15 42/14
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58/6 61/10 61/16
70/18 71/1 92/22
102/22 103/18 124/13)
ives [1] 39/22
giving [5] 49/23 56/9
(41) explore... - giving
INQ00001204
INQ00001204
G 46/16 46/21 47/21 IH 101/3 101/22 103/9 I 31/2 58/4 66/8
rn RD RAN I 01/25 53/25 57/14 had tea) B19 G/19 I 104/13 105/21 106/14) heart [2] 54/17 58/2
soe [3] 62/2 84/1) B74 Go/6 67/11 67/17 ad oS OO aso 106/16 106/22 106/24Iheave [1] 101/4
lad [1] 62/4 68/15 68/18 70/23 I 44/59 18700 18/14 I 108/5 108/14 108/15 Iheavily [1] 113/25
gto [5] 14/3 14/3 I 74/8 74/12 74/20 49/2 19/2 22/11 26/24) 1171/2 111/13 113/24 heavy [2] 33/22
75/24 76/7 76/19 115/24 119/1 120/14 I 114/4
36/14 36/17 36/25 29/7 29/16 31/6 34/13
global [1] 65/6 84/19 87/14 97/22 40/25 43/17 51/24 122/4 122/13 122/19 Iheld [1] 4/20
go [37] 5/2 7/9 9123 11128 118/24 11912 I co4 gota 61/2 65/19) 127/24 help [19] 5/16 14/2
5/2 128/2 hasn't [2] 40/13 22/12 24/18 26/13
11/8 11/40 11/22 17/6 65/20 66/20 71/6
government's [14] 116/23 29/2 29/17 31/14
18/11 18/17 19/7 71/12 75/8 81/25 82/6
5/4 6/25 9/3 23/10 have [232] 31/15 37/3 42/10 51/5
23/19 24/14 25/15 82/8 90/9 92/7 92/15 <
26/9 30/6 30/20 38/12 haven't [4] 39/21 51/7 95/14 114/4
26/3 27/20 27/23 93/17 97/6 97/17
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governments [1] having [16] 1/4 9/1 122/17
31/7 31/16 32/9 42/19] 906 11419 117/25 117/25 I So o616 26/17 \helpful [3] 34/19 46/4
43/9 46/1 48/23 48/25] 118/14 118/3 119/21 elpful [3]
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53/14 59/13 66/18 I ap6i4 495/04 126/14 I 120/8 1212 123/22 I Boon 5/9 68/22 71/4I helping [1] 94/18
79/21 80/10 109/7 126/8 126/25 127/1
411/18 115/13 119/23) 126/16 127/3 127/5 half [3] 64/16 85/10 111/6 111/8 121/12 Ihelps [1] 115/14
420/22 Grant Thornton [7] _ I 'g8/24 HCRS [4] 23/16 39/8 IHenry [9] 117/9
goal [1] 71/5 124/16 125/4 125/24 Ie ateway [4] 75/21 I 39/17 60/19 117/12 117/21 118/16
goes [4] 18/22 32/19 I 126/14 126/16 12713 I eran r9/23 1138 Ie [73] 8/20 1015 118/21 119/19 120/13
12715 t 10/10 10/10 22/24 I 124/6 129/9
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going [52] 3/8 5/2 5/3I tetul [6] 17/19 I 11/9 51/21 52/8 52/22 ‘I 102/23 105/24 108/11
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62/25 67/10 70/22 I er tton's [1] 111/20 [happening [7] 11/21 I 18/3 44814 118/22 Ihigh [4] 66/2 71/14
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90/1 98/2 98/10 98/14 ay 66129 RAPPERS IZ] 7619 I oe tara 404/15I highlight [1] 96/22
tors 109/15 110/15 Iaregior [AI ‘19/1 126 121/25 122/1 [mice oy gro B24
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gone tt] 23/4 43/20 44/5 48/22 nappy La 122/19 122/19 122/24] 120/2 120/3 120/4
good [17] 113 15/5 I a ane I 89/10 89/12 Borat I oe said 129/15) 121/18 120129 129/10
34/16 47/18 49/11 I ing [4] 97/12 hard [7] 15/15 15/16 I 493/46 123/20 123/21I himself [3] 119/1
49/12 51/17 57/4 ay 56/4 15/17 15/18 96/21 I 453/04 123/25 124/1 I 120/25 121/6
area sai20 salar aroun tt teas (ttt 114/21 124/3 124/4 125/23 Ihindsight [2] 70/1
93/15 9613 104/6 Oo A iedizn (armed (1) ot ee ee ties [tone
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76/14 77/21 96/3 2 ity 12/2 66/16 67/23 70/12 Iheard [20] 13/3 13/6 Ihold [3
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hearings [4] 30/19 Ihope [8] 10/8 14/6
(42) giving... - hope
INQ00001204
INQ00001204
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hopes [1] 43/4 I apologise [2] 19/18 I 64/13 Irefer [1] 37/9 75/15 115/2 117/21
hoping [1] 16/24 I 39/9 I follow [3] 28/1 Ireference [1] 120/8 I 119/25 128/16
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83/18 Bal9 Bein2 o9/4It became [1] 75/2 I have [34] 8/20 11/5 I 20/8 22/19 25/5 26/15I 75/18 82/13 87/25
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identified [14] 12/15 increased [1] 40/15 I 15/13 15/14 15/19 13/11 99/17 99/21 99/25
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39/14 45/15 46/7 34/17 20/10 21/17 22/22 107/21 104/3 105/20 106/3
73/12 73/13 77/12 incumbent [2] 88/13 I 27/18 28/7 30/18 31/1Iinterviews [5] 93/10 I 106/13 106/19 108/3
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identifies [2] 80/1 indeed [9] 23/16 39/10 39/22 39/22 110/14 112/21 112/25 113/5
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identify [11] 37/12 56/6 59/2 62/8 84/13 I 44/10 44/21 45/4 14/16 16/6 29/10 31/3I 127/24
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if [136] independently [1] 120/24 121/5 122/15 Iintroduce [2] 5/15 57/10 58/14 66/7
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103/1 indication [1] 57/8 IInquiry's [4] 40/23 17/4 26/22 74/24 75/7 82/19
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illustration [4] 13/22 14/24 23/19 insecure [1] 72/8 investigation [1] 85/13 87/2 87/11 88/8)
114/12 26/6 41/14 67/11 inserted [1] 79/17 110/12 88/9 92/1 92/8 94/2
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87/18 88/10 113/6 67/14 110/2 110/7 110/11 110/1 110/24 111/7
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immediately [3] individuals [2] 86/2 Iinsofar [2] 62/7 110/21 112/13 112/16 113/14)
19/23 70/24 115/25 87/4 115/24 investigators [3] 114/9 114/10 114/16
implement [2] 6/17 inefficient [1] 72/8 Iinstance [3] 93/25 110/13 110/18 111/2 I 114/23 115/17 124/18)
18/4 inferentially [1] 108/25 125/4 investment [4] 64/10 I it [293]
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43/5 influence [3] 119/2 Iinstinct [1] 26/12 investments [4] 7/9 8/11 8/12 10/2
implications [1] 121/7 123/6 Institutions [5] 64/19} 64/25 65/2 67/10 74/8) 10/21 11/10 14/21
informal [2] 94/21 64/22 64/24 65/4 invite [1] 41/7 14/25 15/5 17/8 17/10)
- 114/18 65/20 involve [1] 13/9 22/16 22/23 22/25
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impose [1] 128/7 67/14 69/3 70/12 98/12 involvement [4] 4/3 I 46/7 46/15 46/19
imposes [1] 37/10 73/20 76/2 78/17 interesting [4] 71/20 I 65/10 112/19 114/5 I 46/20 47/11 47/22
impossible [1] 98/18 78/22 79/6 99/14 72/3 79/16 95/21 involves [1] 94/12 47/24 48/1 48/2 48/17
improve [6] 7/6 7/12 104/7 104/11 104/12 Iinterface [1] 118/23 IIreland [1] 38/8 51/4 53/15 54/5 56/1
12/14 40/19 42/11 104/14 104/21 105/2 Iinterim [11] 24/5 irrespective [1] 57/8 67/16 68/14
57/3 105/3 105/5 109/17 I 24/23 25/4 25/21 68/11 70/24 72/3 72/14 73/1
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inception [4] 75/1 Infrastructure [1] 46/6 47/17 101/4 issue [63] 8/16 9/18 I 104/18 106/1 107/19
include [6] 32/23 68/6 internally [1] 94/23 I 31/8 35/14 36/2 38/19I 109/15 110/4 115/6
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111/21 128/2 inherited [1] 31/3 interpreted [1] 45/19 I 47/18 47/25 49/21 118/11 121/11
includes [1] 44/25 initial [2] 43/5 84/8 interrogate [1] 81/1 I 50/19 50/23 51/1 its [16] 20/2 21/25
including [5] 12/1 initially [2] 81/13 interrupt [3] 20/12 54/25 66/3 70/2 70/6 I 23/18 34/23 53/11
19/4 60/25 69/17 82/23 22/13 25/13 70/6 71/22 72/11 75/9) 67/15 70/22 72/19
78/17 initiative [3] 92/6 intervene [2] 107/25 I 83/14 84/4 84/13 75/3 76/1 77/5 80/8
inconvenience [1] 93/24 95/14 113/19 84/23 85/3 86/2 86/7 I 80/8 83/7 115/23
innovation [1] 93/13 Iintervention [3] 86/14 86/15 86/16 115/24
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1 keen [3] 31/20 32/5 I 28/16 40/6 43/21 119/17 122/17 36/20 38/19 38/21
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89/23 107/14 107/15 I 102/25 25/22 26/1 26/10 110/15 117/1 128/8 Ilosing [1] 106/8
129/8 know [47] 1/4 13/17 I 26/17 27/1 27/7 27/13]likely [5] 24/4 24/23 Iloss [5] 19/9 19/13
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Jane [3] 100/21 34/7 35/18 44/2 44/3 I 69/24 99/13 99/25 limit [3] 50/4.51/5 losses [4] 24/5 24/23
101/24 102/14 44/4 49/5 52/20 55/6 I 100/2 10/5 100/7 I 51/12 25/4 25/21
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January [5] 33/23 I 71/9. 72/1 85/12 85/17I 101/20 101/22 102/4 I 115/11 105/3
33/25 36/6 56/20 59/5I 87/4 87/13 88/21 103/10 110/13 113/6 Ilimits [1] 50/2 lot [9] 47/11 50/12
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jeopardy [2] 23/1 95/13 95/18 98/7 _Ilegally [2] 101/18 —_I 29/5 32/15 73/8 73/9 I 85/10 94/17 97/21
23/14 102/10 103/1 104/2 I 104/12 line 8 [1] 22/23 lots [1] 128/10
job [2] 15/5 57/4 104/23 106/3 107/1 I legislation [5] 4/6 4/7Ilines [1] 123/3 lower [3] 18/6 19/17
jobs [2] 4/22 77/13 I 109/3 109/5 109/16 I 4/9 4/9 4/12 lion [4] 101/4 51/6
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99/18 121/25 123/3 127/8 I 67/5 68/10 68/13 _I listened [2] 9/1 83/16I 89/13
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judgments [1] 96/1 I!ack [2] 93/12 127/3 I 60/15 93/21 100/23 102/15 103/3 Imade [36] 1/18 7/11
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18/19 21/21 30/8 last [10] 34/2 34/2 I 122/6 lives [1] 61/7 36/23 40/22 50/4 51/3}
30/14 90/3 90/20 55/24 61/17 85/10 I lest [1] 89/23 Lloyds [1] 67/9 51/17 52/15 52/16
100/18 100/17 112/2 113/11 Ilet [1] 89/6 lobby [1] 119/24 54/1 55/19 58/23
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just [60] 1/8 1/17 50/17 58/7 letter [6] 10/18 20/11 Ilong [7] 7/7 8/9 14/5 I 106/16 114/3 117/22
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18/11 20/1 20/8 21/14I 98/16 89/19 127/6 122/21 124/14 126/24
22/13 22/16 23/6 23/7I ater [1] 46/20 letters [4] 50/7 50/14 Ilong-term [3] 7/7 Magnox [2] 99/5
26/20 28/9 29/10 launch [1] 2/14 53/17 53/17 122/16 122/21 101/3
32/10 35/13 41/9 lawyer [2] 28/11 level [13] 40/6 45/6 longer [15] 23/19 _Imain [3] 77/24 78/8
47/20 53/23 56/9 28/17 52/22 70/10 70/12 I 27/23 29/18 36/6 98/21
56/17 57/15 57/19 Ilawyers{7] 16/17 I 71/14 83/10 93/4 40/17 42/6 45/23 46/3/ maintains [1] 8/2
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103/22 104/25 105/18I 26/25 1424/2 15/10 16/25 17/1 17/7I 6/2 8/6 13/19 13/23
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118/14 118/17 120/22I 129/15 iabilities [1] 65/8 I 46/8 51/11 55/1 61/12I 31/16 33/11 43/4
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justice 6) 7/1 37/14 I 125/10 12512 44/25 looked [9] 19/20 22/9I 59/19 59/20 71/18
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M 44/16 47/21 49/13 message [2] 9/4 22/22 24/2 127/20 124/11 127/14
make... [2] 1164 49/13 53/18 56/15 60/24 127/25 128/22 Mr Henry [4] 117/9
1425/9 58/21 60/23 62/10 met [16] 6/5 37/25 Imoney [5] 27/4 79/9 I 117/21 120/13 124/6
makes [3] 46/19 61/4 63/15 64/20 76/5 41/10 41/12 41/13 79/15 79/22 106/9 Mr Hollinrake [2]
84/15 82/19 98/23 105/11 41/14 41/16 50/23 months [3] 12/10 51/18 52/5
making [6] 6/14 108/15 115/20 115/21) 50/24 50/24 50/25 56/1 56/22 Mr Ismail [3] 109/21
25/13 32/13 52/13 116/1 116/3 116/6 97/4 97/6 97/20 more [50] 11/21 110/3 125/23
123/15 127/15 May 2018 [1] 64/20 I 100/18 120/9 15/24 16/3 16/4 18/16IMr Ismail's [1]
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manage [7] 67/25 13/20 15/5 17/11 27/2I 48/18 48/24 25/14 25/20 26/14 Mr Jacobs [3] 89/3
92/25 97/1 108/3 27/3 28/12 36/9 43/17I middle [2] 7/17 53/2 I 26/16 29/1 29/18 89/23 107/14
121/8 121/25 123/7 I 44/6. 44/8 58/9 61/1 Imight [24] 11/7 16/22) 35/13 36/21 42/23 Mr Justice [1] 96/1
managed [3] 48/7 62/24 66/13 81/17 19/18 19/18 19/23 47/12 49/1 50/8 50/18IMr Nick [1] 117/15
92/18 92/25 89/6 96/22 104/16 23/5 28/15 32/1 43/23] 56/25 57/19 59/11 Mr Parmod [1] 60/25
management [4] 109/14 109/15 117/18] 45/15 45/18 46/2 59/15 60/9 60/21 Mr Railton [12] 42/22
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72/23 76/6 79/9 79/14I 98/21 40/5 49/4 53/21)mine [1] 105/25 125/16 126/1 Mr Read [11] 97/18
79/21 54/9 56/19 68/14 minimal [1] 89/1 morning [6] 1/3 117/19 117/24 118/8
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84/15 84/21 86/17 2/1 3/16 4/17 9/12 127/17 127/21 121/10 122/22 123/3
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ate er peer 113/7 121/15 123/21 I 22/18 40/4 41/10 Motion [3] 10/15 11/4!Mr Recaldin [2] 59/4
74/12 97/8 meaning [2] 50/10 I 47/10 91/8 91/10 11/13 59/25
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number [21] 2/8 5/15
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107/16 108/19 111/18I Organisation [12] 126/23 6/19 6/23 7/9 7/17 71/11
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ee 23/15 24/5 24/19IPhases 5 [1] 13/3 77/3 115/8 51/7 59/7 85/17 86/3 I 101/18 104/12
24/24 25/4 25/21 phrase [1] 86/18 POL0036299 [1] 86/10 106/8 108/9 proactive [1] 30/24
28/20 29/3 59/12 61/5IPicking [2] 52/11 115/6 power [2] 111/21 __I proactively [4]
payments [2] 5/18 52/19 POL00448368 [1] 111/25 115/16
59/13 picks [1] 94/9 95/7 practical [2] 12/7 proactiveness [1]
peer [1] 114/19 picture [1] 15/3 POL00448676 [1] 12/9 30/20
Pensions [1] 38/13 place [31] 21/21 23/1I 118/15 practices [1] 82/21 I probably [9] 49/8
people [48] 6/3 6/14 23/20 29/8 31/13 POL00448771 [1] precise [2] 123/23 59/3 70/10 71/11
14/11 19/12 24/11 33/12 38/4 40/10 124/22 124/1 97/18 101/8 105/18
24/13 24/16 25/6 25/8) 40/12 55/9 55/11 polarity [1] 52/23 _I precisely [1] 83/25 I 105/24 106/5
25/10 25/25 26/13 I 55/14 70/15 74/4 77/9I Police [1] 10/13 predecessor [2] 3/24Iproblem [5] 20/17
26/15 27/20 28/1 77/9 84/18 85/9 92/22I policies [2] 68/19 13/5 49/9 96/23 120/24
28/14 28/22 28/23 93/13 93/24 94/24 125/1 predecessors’ [1] 121/5
29/12 29/14 29/15 96/5 97/19 98/25 policy [17] 5/3 5/5 18/1 problematic [1] 69/8
39/21 34/16 34/21 I 99/13 103/2 103/12 I 5/7 6/17 6/18 8/1 8/22Ipreface [1] 105/18 I problems [2] 6/10
37/19 39/14 42/10 I 107/8 110/8 114/15 _I 9/3 20/7 38/12 41/19 Iprefer [2] 89/8 89/19 I 99/7
Jono 45/16 50/11 {Plain [2] 59/18 59/22 I 74/13 77/25 109/7 I prepared [5] 58/3 I procedure [1] 30/2
plans [2] 15/21 78/18 115/17 116/5 116/6 I 69/6 89/5 109/3 _—I proceed [4] 62/16
cave care Soro Brit Play [4] 41/23 42/1 politics [1] 119/3 I 109/10 proceedings [1]
61/6 61/7 61/14 61/17] 71/7 118/25 portfolio [20] 7/4 _Ipresent [1] 81/6 128/3
Soe Re aeIse. [playing [1] 62/3 I 12/4 12/8 66/20 66/21I presented [1] 102/21 Iprocess [64] 5/24 6/2
89/18 121/22 128/8 IPlease [44] 1/21 2/24] 72/19 73/22 73/25 press [2] 13/4 36/9 I 6/2 6/15 7/13 8/13
6/18 6/23 7/9 10/2 74/17 80/25 82/12 pressing [3] 56/18 I 8/23 12/23 16/6 16/10
people $121 28/3 I 49/20 11/22 11/22 _I 83/18 107/16 18/1 I 117/1 117/38 16/14 16/16 23/20
per fe] 12/11 15/14 I 19/10 16/25 17/7 17/9] 111/18 112/18 112/24 pressure [6] 45/17 I 23/21 24/13 24/18
Tene t5/17 15/1 I 18/12 18/17 19/7 113/18 113/21 114/2 I 59/19 59/22 61/3 61/8) 25/11 26/16 26/18
57/9 111/5 11118 I 21/13 30/11 30/12 portfolios [1] 65/9 I 61/11 27/19 27/21 27123
perceived [3] 28/24 I 30/15 32/8 32/11 I position [18] 7/7 22/6 pressurised [1] 28/24 29/2 29/19 31/6
DBID4 B32 32/15 42/12 48/11 I 23/10 31/4 35/3 35/13) 60/15 31/13 31/23 32/18
perfect [2] 2115 I 0/23 61/9 63/5 63/24I 35/23 38/14 38/20 Ipresume [1] 107/2 I 32/20 33/11 33/12
Dart 72/13 73/1 75/17 _I 39/1 39/2 39/11 45/8 I pretty [2] 28/2 29/12 I 33/16 35/8 37/24
perfectly [2] 89/10 I 75/20 77/3 79/1 89/25] 46/17 46/20 55/22 previous [4] 11/18 I 40/11 44/14 45/3
12B/A 90/19 90/20 99/17 I 1214/7 123/6 38/11 91/13 100/12 I 45/16 46/18 47/4 47/8
performance [5] 107/16 107/18 115/6 I positioned [2] 119/4 Ipreviously [2] 5/4 I 48/6 50/11 51/12
SSI? Tet 7eW8 78/19) 117/18 118/16 119/18 123/1 51/17 53/15 53/16
phd pleased [1] 32/16 I positive [2] 7/12 _I primary [6] 72/18 _I 53/20 55/2 55/8 57/1
performed [1] 77/20 IPlus [1] 68/16 15/22 72/22 73/2 78/10 I 61/15 61/16 75/2
perhaps [10] 48/23 pm [3] 62/23 110/14 Ipossession [1] 106/18 118/21 75/14 91/7 93/8
raloaeio 54/13, I 128/21 115/25 principal [4] 69/1 I 108/18 108/24 109/4
56/2 70/11 84/18 _[POint [42] 4/5 20/14 I possible [9] 7/2 76/5 76/21 78/2 4113/8 116/24 117/1
90/18 114/12 120/17 I 22/15 22/21 23/7 25/1] 11/10 31/8 34/20 __I principally [3] 65/4 Iprocesses [4] 42/17
period [8] 3/23 50/10 I 25/13 25/20 27/15 I 42/20 51/3 1/22 71/6I 73/6 80/7 45/1 46/6 47/17
S119 84/23 58/4 27/16 27/18 31/2 102/21 principle [2] 23/7 Iproduce [4] 70/19
85/19 89/13 96/6 I 32/10 34/22 36/8 38/2Ipossibly [1] 122/6 I 102/9 produced [1] 63/8
Permanent [7] 78/3 41/9 44/20 44/22 post [145] principles [17] 73/23 I programme [6] 85/9
TBs 78/10 G25 108/9I 50/16 52/3 52/20 58/6 Ipostal [2] 4/3 47/10 I 74/1 74/2 74/18 75/5 I 86/21 86/24 94/24
108/17 119/25 61/19 66/14 68/5 _I postmaster [13] 20/3] 75/11 79/8 82/12 103/4 114/14
69/21 75/3 7/11 41/10. 41/12 41/14 I 83/19 87/5 99/1 progress [9] 14/6
permits [1] 43/22
permitted [1] 110/14 87/18 94/9 95/20 98/9] 90/7 90/13 90/24 91/5) 107/17 108/19 111/19] 37/4 37/5 43/5 43/8
. 100/16 113/1 114/7 92/9 92/21 94/2 110/5I 112/18 113/18 114/3 I 52/13 102/23 120/1
persistent [2] 69/12 I 447/99 4119/8 123/2 I 125/5 prior [16] 26/22 27/3 I 123/14
person [1] 89/12 I 126/12 126/25 127/10 postmasters [16] _ I 56/9 64/14 65/19 72/6I prohibition [1] 93/23
pereonal pty 93/21 [points [7] 51/23 I 7/13 7/16 18/11 15/14] 74/3 78/24 93/12 I prominence [1]
creonally pay 71/21 I 83/11 57/24 69/18 I 17/21 18/6 19/16 24/3] 93/17 99/18 97/4 99/4) 99/18
P y 69/20 69/2071/9 I 24/21 25/19 42/18 I 110/8 110/11 117/23 I promote [1] 76/2
(49) Patel - promote
INQ00001204
INQ00001204
P 96/21 31/8 37/5 38/5 51/3 Ireason [8] 61/13 I 12/15 12/19 12/21
———______—Ipushing [3] 13/25 _I 55/7 56/25 62/5 72/12I 84/17 91/22 93/13 I 13/25 14/14 16/5
Ona os 812 14/8 36/3 118/19 96/18 102/8 109/10 I 17/23 23/14 26/5
"58/24 60/14 put [21] 13/20 16/4 Iquiet [1] 48/19 116/22 27/22 29/3 29/18
16/6 23/1 23/11 26/1 Iquite [15] 11/10 12/3 Ireasonable [8] 28/22I 36/15 36/24 36/24
promptly [1] 115/23 I 59/8 29/9 33/17 34/25I 12/16 13/21 28/5 28/8) 28/22 29/8 37/11 37/6 37/24 40/15 66/3
promptly ... but [1]
115/23 45/17 48/16 51/23 40/13 44/5 55/7 66/16I 45/22 54/25 101/9 reduced [1] 23/8
promptness [4] 5/8 74/4 84/18 85/9 94/24) 71/14 95/2 97/10 115/23 refer [8] 7/4 7/24
8/4 8/17 9/13. 104/24 114/14 118/8 I 104/16 114/13 reasonably [2] 29/15I 12/6 13/7 30/8 37/9
127/17 quoted [2] 67/9 67/12I 36/22 42/19 115/4
proper [1] 8/7
putting [9] 23/20 reasons [2] 16/5 _Ireference [9] 2/8
Pro erdcentt) 66/23 342564156723 IR_ I a t09 63/10 71/24 79/10
prop 1 [3] 20/7 77/8 92/21 93/2 98/25I Railton [13] 42/14 reassessed [1] 32/22] 79/14 110/6 120/8
Or 90/1 E 1] 99/13 42/22 43/1 43/4 43/17I reassurance [1] 123/14 125/10
zon lg. I 44/2 54/12 54/24 45/24 referenced [3] 94/9
proposals [3] Qo) 74712 106/22 107/10 I rebuild [3] 46/5 46/25, 99/20 123/12
propose [2] g/t [AC's [6] 100/14 112/12 112/14 4125/1 referred [4] 30/2
4128/6 100/19 101/17 102/12IRailton's [2] 52/21 IRecaldin [6] 15/19 52/18 53/4 106/14
any 916 I 102/16 102/20 56/12 22/22 24/2 25/18 59/4I referring [3] 32/17
proposes We te/10I Walified [1] 98/13 raise [3] 113/23 59/25 39/17 43/14
prosecurea 1 quality [1] 75/25 119/25 122/22 recall [13] 19/22 _Irefers [4] 10/15
rosecution [1] quarterly [2] 99/9 _Iraised [8] 13/13 81/17 86/23 90/15 I 17/14 111/19 112/18
roo 104/8 14/12 17/22 53/11 90/17 90/18 91/16 _I reflect [11] 19/1 22/7
i quashed [3] 37/12 I 100/24 111/11 111/13] 91/19 91/24 92/1 92/3I 22/16 27/17 39/24
oe ons mM 37/19 38/11 122/12 93/6 121/23 49/21 60/10 60/21
tor [1 question [25] 19/20 Iraising [1] 13/5 receive [1] 14/18 62/9 109/11 125/14
irae 22/16 24/19 25/18 Iran [1] 64/13 received [3] 17/20 _Ireflected [5] 84/25
25/25 29/4 36/8 36/11Irange [2] 22/10 68/18) 101/22 125/24 85/14 94/3 114/17
protect [1] 102/25 I sq/24 40/23 54/10 ranging [1] 12/8 _Ireceiving [2] 34/10 I 126/14
protection [1] 67/14 I 54793 55/19 68/21 Iranked [1] 105/25 I 90/15 reflection [1] 5/21
protocol [1] 99/13 I) 74/14 95/3 98/14 __Irather [6] 31/14 53/1 Irecently [1] 16/19 _ Ireflects [4] 67/19
provide id Per 98/24 103/7 113/15 I 71/4 80/2 89/19 reciprocal [1] 69/8 I 91/21 99/3 127/1
56/18 58/4 62/7 62/12I {10/2 116/21 117/21 I 110/15 recognise [3] 48/1 [Reform [2] 3/20 3/22
FoI O0Id 98/3 119/7 126/22 rationale [3] 117/18 I 51/8 121/11 reforms [1] 5/15
104/22 108/16 108/21I Questioned [14] 1/16] 118/7 118/9 recollect [1] 22/15 Iregard [6] 34/19 39/3
113/12 49/10 58/19 63/3 reach [3] 26/14 42/11Irecollection [6] 11/9 I 47/24 60/22 103/21
‘dod [3] 27/22 I 107/18 117/12 124/8 I 44/16 19/1 20/7 21/24 22/18] 106/20
RoI ea tal 129/3 129/4 129/5 Ireached [1] 99/18 I 22/20 regarding [4] 51/19
ides [1] 90/6 129/7 129/8 129/9 _Ireaching [2] 22/10 Irecommendation [3] I 52/20 90/9 126/16
provides [1] 129/10 61/7 17/24 32/17 90/11 Iregular [8] 17/20
providing [8] 2/2
7/13 18/8 23/24 24/9 IWestioner [1] 89/23 Ireaction [1] 103/13 Irecommendations I 35/20 65/22 81/12
questioning [1] read [26] 17/1 44/24 I [7] 18/22 19/4 30/21 I 97/17 97/17 106/13
aecion tty 116H6 aati 45/11 65/18 74/21 I 30/24 43/23 90/24 I 123/13
public [13] 41/5 53/4 questionnaire (1) 7si19 76/4 77/17 100/14 regularly [3] 75/5
53/9 50/2 79/9 79/15 , 5/15 97/18 100/9 Irecommended [1] I 80/22 81/11
79/22 B4/19 98/1 98/2I Westions [38] 3/8 I 102/12 110/2 111/12 I 31/6 regulator [1] 74/15
98/5 98/9 128/14 9/25 11/7 11/19 13/16] 117/15 117/19 117/24I recommends [1] Regulatory [1] 3/22
public's [1] 1252 I 14/23 18/1 22/8 31/11] 118/8 118/19 119/21 I 17/26 reinforcement [1]
tublieity [1] 34/18 I 20/20 40/1 42/4 44/17I 120/6 120/10 121/10 Ireconstruetion [1] I 87/5
P' He AS ere 47/3 47/12 48/8 48/9 I 122/22 123/3 125/6 I 12/2 reiterate [1] 8/4
pupncly [2] 48/10 49/5 49/15 Read's [3] 118/18 record [2] 2/8 22/23 Ireject [2] 18/5 19/16
ublish [1] 44/7 49/19 51/23 56/2 119/16 122/10 records [1] 11/10 __Irejected [2] 18/23
p plished [1] 3/7 I 06/1458/11 58/22 Ireading [1] 59/25 recover [1] 45/6 21/25
published [1] 34/23. I 86/7 88/24 88/25 readout [1] 17/19 Irecovery [2] 45/3 related [4] 38/17 39/5)
publishes vs , 105/23 107/12 114/16I ready [2] 84/3 100/8 I 45/8 47/3 85/23
yo 117/6 117/8 122/12 Ireal [2] 86/18 86/18 recruitment [1] 91/7 Irelates [1] 74/22
purpose [4] 74/5 124/7 124/11 127/16 Irealise [1] 103/20 Irecused [1] 122/12 Irelating [1] 64/14
ON TTB TTB quick [6] 24/13 24/17Irealistic [1] 70/9 [red [9] 82/19 83/13 _ relation [11] 9/8
purposes [2] 49/15 25/6 27/20 31/16 reality [1] 28/4 83/23 84/4 84/13 50/15 56/10 63/11
any 115/3 really [13] 52/12 53/5 84/14 84/23 110/24 I 95/4 105/12 110/17
pursue [1] 83/1 quicker [3] 23/14 58/2 72/3 72/4 77/8 I 114/10 112/3 112/5 115/21
tursued [1] 38/13 I 20/5 26/7 88/9 93/15 95/20 Ired-flag [1] 82/19 I 124/19
push [3] 15/6 82/25 [ickly [14] 4/9 26/3 I 101/23 105/6 106/2 redress [25] 2/14 relationship [2]
26/14 27/22 29/18 I 109/2 5/16 5/22 6/8 6/9 7/13} 90/10 115/11
(60) promoted - relationship
INQ00001204
INQ00001204
R 25/19 25/22 90/14 responsibility [16] 66/14 71/6 71/13 74/4I 33/18 33/21 35/25
relationships [1] 90/24 91/5 4/11 5/11 8/12 9/16 I 74/8 74/19 76/5 76/21I 36/5 38/6 38/18 38/18)
94/11 representative [9] 9/18 9/21 9/22 11/19 I 77/10 77/19 80/8 38/21 38/25 39/17
relatively [2] 4/9 67/3 77/17 77/19 14/25 52/2 72/22 79/5I 80/11 80/21 81/14 42/13 43/9 46/15
72/12 77/24 78/8 78/16 82/3 82/6 88/18 82/18 82/22 83/5 46/16 47/21 47/24
relevant [4] 38/7 87/10 116/5 116/6 106/18 84/19 85/11 85/20 48/2 48/15 54/6 56/21
78/17 108/23 116/1 representatives [3] Iresponsible [1] 86/5 87/24 88/20 56/21 60/8 61/13 68/3}
reliable [1] 104/6 11/3 16/12 110/13 73/11 88/22 92/7 93/8 94/5 I 69/13 69/20 70/13
relied [2] 100/24 represented [1] restraint [1] 70/2 94/8 94/14 94/19 96/8] 72/16 73/1 75/1 75/4
1401/3 28/21 restriction [1] 70/2 I 98/5 98/9 98/13 77/1 84/24 89/16
relief [1] 21/10 represents [1] 11/2 [restrictive [1] 93/20 I 100/13 106/20 107/25) 97/17 102/24 106/6
reluctance [4] 96/18 reputation [5] 121/9 Iresult [3] 14/7 53/24 I 110/21 113/20 118/22) 106/13 106/18 107/9
1405/6 120/25 121/6 121/20 122/1 122/2 I 75/7 119/12 122/5 127/4 I 112/25 119/8 120/5
reluctant [1] 34/8 123/8 resume [1] 127/20 127/7 121/10 121/13 122/24)
rely [2] 33/2 101/9 reputational [1] retention [1] 110/17 Iroles [7] 3/13 64/14 I 124/1
relying [1] 128/16 122/7 return [3] 18/7 58/3 I 74/12 77/6 77/16 90/8I saying [11] 7/4 44/2
remain [3] 38/14 request [9] 38/22 82/12 95/15 44/3 44/5 50/8 60/2
56/17 83/12 67/4 67/19 78/17 reverse [1] 61/18 — Iroom [3] 16/21 86/25I 71/11 77/18 86/6
remaining [2] 65/7 115/20 116/12 121/17I review [21] 42/15 128/11 105/19 121/3
4111/2 122/1 123/1 43/3 43/5 43/18 44/25I rose [1] 102/19 says [29] 10/24
remains [2] 57/15 requested [1] 118/2 I 52/20 52/21 53/7 round [1] 72/1 17/12 17/18 18/4
124/24 requests [2] 97/22 I 53/10 69/22 69/23 route [14] 23/14 18/13 18/19 25/18
remember [7] 10/7 116/4 83/12 96/7 96/20 24/14 25/6 25/7 25/15I 30/16 31/22 32/15
10/9 11/3 119/19 require [5] 50/12 99/16 99/19 100/1 26/3 26/7 29/21 31/7 I 44/21 75/4 75/21
419/20 123/11 123/22 57/12 82/19 111/24 I 106/20 106/22 107/8 I 31/17 105/14 78/14 82/16 89/2
remembering [1] 112/1 107/11 RTS [2] 20/16 20/25 I 89/21 90/5 90/22 91/3}
19/21 required [1] 30/17 Ireviewed [4] 18/14 Irun [2] 44/1153/1 I 91/12 100/11 100/16
reminder [1] 84/1 I"equirement [2] 23/23 25/10 50/6 running [7] 13/9 14/5I 1041/2 101/15 102/18
reminding [1] 87/5 68/18 99/8 reviews [3] 95/23 16/23 53/3 85/13 107/23 113/17 115/15)
remote [1] 89/12 requires [1] 70/23 96/2 96/9 116/25 123/16 scale [1] 70/16
removal [1] 126/13. Ifeduiring [1] 114/10 Irevised [1] 111/22 [Russell [1] 101/2__I/ scandal [22] 5/12
remove [1] 120/16 research [2] 64/17 IRichard[1] 101/12 IQ 7 —C~C~C~CSCS 5/17 /G’ 7/3. 7/6 8/1.
removed [2] 70/25 64/17 right [24] 1/202/7,) IB I 12/21 13/18 31/13
117/20 resist [1] 87/3 2/22 20/22 21/2 27/8 Isadly [1] 49/2 34/13 35/16 41/15
removing [6] 117/15 resolving [1] 111/9 I 29/23 33/10 34/22 Saf [1] 95/4 56/25 71/7 83/15 84/9)
1420/2 120/3 120/4 resort [1] 112/2 39/12 43/17 44/23 safely [1] 48/14 85/21 110/16 110/19
4120/5 120/20 resource [1] 113/12 I 49/9 56/2 67/11 106/4Isaid [34] 1/18 9/23 114/1 122/6 125/3
remuneration [5] resourced [1] 31/23 I 115/14 116/11 116/18] 10/5 21/24 22/7 22/15I schedule [1] 58/4
78/21 97/21 97/23 Ifesources [2] 14/1 I 117/11 118/13 120/17 22/24 32/10 47/14 __I scheme [30] 2/15 6/1
98/3 98/11 77/22 120/22 122/4 49/20 59/6 66/19 75/4) 7/21 7/22 12/19 14/3
repairing [1] 62/5 Ifesourcing [4] 42/16 /rightly [3] 13/21 85/14 87/13 88/2 16/9 16/23 17/5 23/16
palring 80/9 95/2 113/10 19/21 29/4 100/20 100/24 108/11I 23/21 27/3 30/10 32/2
repeated [1] 48/4
replace [1] 121/18
reply [1] 13/20
respect [28] 56/16 [risk [18] 23/3 23/5 108/12 109/19 110/3 I 33/1 34/1 34/4 34/14
65/8 67/8 68/24 68/25] 73/10 73/11 73/13 1114/6 111/7 111/8 35/6 36/14 36/17
report [17] 5312 I 89/13 70/9 71/10 76I6] 79/25 80/1 Bolt 113/7 120/12 121/16 I 36/17 36/25 39/18
229 F220 100/18 I 76/8 79/6 79/24 81/24I BOIT9 80/23 80/24 I 122/14 122/19 124/3 I 50/3 50/3 52/6 59/14
100/19 101/17 102/12] 84/16 90/24 94/5 95/7] 81/3 81/6 86/18 125/23 125/25 126/17I 60/18 60/19
402/16 102/20 124/17] 25/8 95/10 97/16 I 101/20 101/25 106/17Isake [1] 27/6 schemes [9] 9/7 14/9
toaioo 125/4 125/04 I 99/18 99/22 104/14 I 124/14 Sam [1] 49/13 14/14 15/9 16/18
tet 126/16 126/19 I 104/25 105/1 105/10 Irisks [24] 72/10 Isame [4] 27/11 36/15I 39/16 39/17 52/11
12713 110/10 112/22 72/19 72/20 72/23 I 38/14 92/10 65/11
reportedly [1] 120/3 Ifespective [1] 77/11 I 72/24 73/3 73/12 __Isat [1] 103/24 Scotland [1] 38/8
reporting {5].72/10 Ifespond [1] 71/11 I 73/20 76/6 78/23 79/7Isatisfy [1] 14/18 Isereen [12] 2/11 6/21
72/23 79/25 80/1 responded [1] 111/6 I 80/1 80/2 80/5 80/7 Isaves [1] 49/5 40/21 15/12 17/1
99/10 response [8] 14/11 I 80/7 80/18 80/20 —_Isaw [4] 85/22 94/1 I 17/10 72/13 73/23
reports [3] 43/22 I 20/10 82/23 10111 I 80/20 81/10 10617 I 126/6 126/9 89/17 89/17 95/6
tet 78/22 101/11 102/17 104/23IRLIT0000348 [1] say [75] 1/202/13 I 115/6
reposition [1] 71/16 I 106/15 32/1 2/15 6/24 7/17 14/20 Iscrews [1] 60/1
Tepresent [7]_4g/14_ \fesponses [2] 59/25 Irobust [1] 103/12 I 15/6 15/25 17/2 17/6 Iscroll 9] 73/1 79/1
49/16 50/11 53/9 ‘I 96/14 robustness [1] 38/24) 18/23 20/8 21/11 90/20 91/1 91/12
60/25 61/2 88/6 responsibilities [9] IRock [1] 65/9 21/17 22/19 23/2 25/5] 100/10 101/1 101/11
4/14 11/24 12/1 13/2 Irole [53] 11/22 11/25 I 25/24 26/11 26/15 I 107/23
75/18 77/7 77/12 40/4 41/23 42/1 44/1 I 27/4 27/6 27/13 28/5 I scrutiny [1] 83/9
79/12 95/16 64/12 65/14 65/24 I 28/11 29/4 30/1 32/19ISeully [1] 91/8
representation [9]
24/3 24/22 25/3 25/17
(51) relationships - Scully
INQ00001204
INQ00001204
s seen [12] 10/21 settled [4] 6/11 32/21] 122/17 simply [6] 4/12 30/5
seat [i] 877 I 15/24 39/1 9/24 85/3] 43/7 43/7 ShEx [1] 66/20 33/1 59/13 101/22
second [5] 32/15 I 95/5 95/13 103/22 Isettlement [6] 6/4 I short [8] 20/15 20/17I 123/19
ah2 Bart 101/5 105/9 107/11 110/24 I 6/14 22/9 24/17 27/21] 21/5 45/21 49/16 _Isince [12] 3/10 7/11
417/10 118/18 60/14 55/13 58/4 62/22 8/20 11/15 11/17
secondary [2] 58/24 ISelect [7] 30/22 31/1 Isettlements [1] short-term [1] 55/13 I 12/10 41/9 51/10
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59/21 60/5 61/13
61/17 61/18 67/6 68/3
68/5 68/5 69/13 69/22
70/11 70/13 70/17
72/10 75/18 78/9 79/9
79/21 80/3 82/13
84/12 84/20 87/24
87/25 88/1 89/3 89/8
89/13 89/15 89/19
93/11 93/12 94/14
96/20 99/7 102/1
102/5 102/20 103/14
103/19 103/25 104/2
104/11 106/1 108/21
108/25 109/12 109/13
111/21 112/4 112/21
113/14 116/25 118/3
119/24 120/13 123/21
123/25 124/3 124/4
124/22 124/24 124/25
125/19 126/3 126/17
126/18 128/8
wouldn't [5] 6/9 33/6
49/3 60/14 61/10
wrestle [1] 114/23
wrestled [1] 56/4
write [9] 19/19 19/24
20/8 20/9 22/8 22/17
22/21 39/9 62/9
writing [2] 13/5 21/17
written [6] 2/2 2/19
10/25 13/17 14/11
121/1
wrong [8] 7/16 39/3
51/25 60/5 61/6 68/23
69/14 122/7
wrongly [1] 59/1
wrote [1] 102/23
Wyn [6] 27/16 44/10
52/19 53/14 58/3
89/10
Y
yeah [3] 33/24 43/15
45/2
year [18] 4/24 30/8
33/20 33/20 33/21
41/7 42/9 43/20 53/12
53/14 56/19 56/19
58/6 59/5 63/9 96/6
97/18 124/17
years [6] 56/4 62/1
85/10 113/11 114/5
118/4
yes [61] 1/11 2/6 3/5
3/17 3/21 3/23 4/22
6/22 8/3 10/1 10/10
10/14 12/4 12/5 16/2
16/16 21/3 21/20
27/23 31/15 33/24
34/5 37/15 38/15
38/15 45/1 48/11
48/25 54/6 61/23 63/1
64/12 64/16 66/7
66/14 68/8 68/19 73/5
76/21 88/5 89/21
90/18 101/14 104/20
106/23 108/20 109/5
111/12 113/24 114/12)
116/15 116/20 117/17)
118/16 123/14 123/17)
123/18 124/4 124/10
127/13 127/22
yesterday [8] 8/18
70/21 71/25 79/24
105/24 108/10 109/5
111/20
yet [9] 39/1 39/1
39/21 41/13 43/7
56/22 97/20 107/11
125/12
you [430]
you'd [1] 18/23
you'll [2] 2/7 40/21
you're [14] 2/22 3/25
10/17 20/14 21/11
27/16 31/24 35/4
38/21 44/25 48/19
50/19 59/3 93/15
you've [18] 3/9 31/24
47/14 49/18 49/20
55/19 56/17 57/23
58/7 58/23 60/2 60/4
60/4 62/7 81/8 99/16
121/2 124/13
YouGov [3] 15/11
15/13 111/4
your [73] 1/21 2/24
3/4 3/6 3/9 6/18 7/4
7/25 9/25 10/4 11/18
11/22 11/24 12/3 12/6)
12/7 13/5 16/2 17/2
18/1 19/1 20/6 21/19
21/23 22/14 28/9
28/12 28/12 29/10
30/7 35/19 36/15
37/17 38/14 40/4 40/5
42/12 46/15 47/21
47/22 49/6 49/6 49/18
50/8 55/22 60/6 60/24,
62/11 63/4 63/24 64/3
65/17 66/19 71/2
72/13 73/25 75/6
81/23 87/13 89/8 90/3
95/5 95/24 96/24
96/24 98/16 113/15
115/3 117/21 120/3
121/2 122/23 123/9
yourself [3] 14/18
35/23 55/17
(67) who's - yourself