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Monday, 11 November 2024
(10.00 am)
MR BLAKE: Good morning, sir.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Good moming, Mr Blake.
MR BLAKE: We will shortly be hearing from Mr Reynolds.
He's not yet in the room.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: That's fine.
MR BLAKE: As you, sir, mentioned on Friday, at 11.00 we
will be taking a one-minute's silence irrespective of
where we are.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes, fine. (Pause)
MR BLAKE: Sir, I anticipate we won't be starting for at
least two or three more minutes.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: All right. Do you want me to remove
myself from the screen or can we just sit here quietly?
MR BLAKE: Entirely a matter for you, sir
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: All right. Well, I'll sit here quietly.
(Pause)
JONATHAN NEIL REYNOLDS MP (sworn)
Questioned by MR BLAKE
MR BLAKE: Thank you very much. Can you give your full
name, please?
A. I'm Jonathan Neil Reynolds.
Q._ Thank you very much. Secretary of State, you should
have in front of you a witness statement dated
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contact with them, I left before I completed my training
contract, when I was elected in the 2010 general
election, and the seats that I did my training contract
in were corporate and real estate.
Q. Thank you. I'm going to bring up onto screen a printout
of your responsibilities as Secretary of State. Can we
please bring onto screen RLITO000349, please. It's
simply a printout from the gov.uk website, outlining the
responsibilities of the Secretary of State. We see
there, if we scroll down, it says:
“The Secretary of State has overall responsibility
for the Department for Business and Trade.
“Responsibilities include:
“Overall responsibility for delivery and strategy
“Cross-government business engagement
“Public appointments
“[Free trade agreement] negotiations, mandates and
decisions
“WTO [World Trade Organisation}, G7 and G20
ministerial meetings
“Overseas network.”
Is that correct?
‘A. Thatis correct, Mr Blake.
Q. We also know there is an Under-Secretary of State for
postal affairs and we heard from him on Friday. What do
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26 September this year; is that correct?
Well -
At least in the bundle —
In the bundle I've seen it, yes.
~ behind tab A two, it should be. Thank you.
Yes.
Can I ask you please to turn to the final substantive
page, that's page 8. Thank you. Can you confirm that
that is your signature -
can confirm that's my signature.
- and that the statement is true to the best of your
knowledge and belief?
That is correct yes.
Thank you very much. That witness statement has
a unique reference number of WITN11470100, and will be
uploaded on to the Inquiry's website
As is well known, you are Secretary of State for
Business and Trade; is that correct?
That's correct, yes.
Your predecessor is our next witness, Kemi Badenoch.
You have a background as a solicitor; is that correct?
That's right, yes.
Are you able to assist us in what area of law you
practised
I worked for Addleshaw Goddard LLP, I did my training
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you see as your responsibility in respect of overseeing
matters relating to the Post Office?
First of all, Mr Blake, let me say I'm very grateful for
the chance to be here. I've been following this
Inquiry, as you would expect, and perhaps didn't
anticipate a general election meaning I'd have the
chance to participate in it, so I'm extremely grateful
for the chance to be in this given how important the
work is.
I would say, first of all, I see it as being my
responsibility for everything the Department for
Business and Trade is responsible for, that ultimately
I'm accountable for everything so the Post Office is
a significant part of that. I also see my role within
the whole of Government when there are matters affecting
the Post Office that perhaps touch on other Government
departments, that I am a key member of the Government in
terms of making sure the rest of the Government is doing
what we need in regard to the Post Office and, whilst
I work very closely with my junior minister, Minister
Thomas, who you've heard from, as part of the Inquiry,
the significance of this particular issue, which
pertains not just to the need for redress for the
survivors of this egregious scandal, but actually for
what lessons we take from that for the future of the
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Post Office, whether it's business model for how it's
run, for its governance structure, that’s a very
significant personal priority for me as the Secretary of
State.
We've talked a lot about redress in the past few weeks.
If there is not full, fair and prompt redress for
subpostmasters, do you take ultimate responsibility at
a governmental level?
Yes, I think this is an example of where, in the past,
there has been insufficient accountability and
ultimately, as the Secretary of State, I take
accountability for everything that is within the
portfolio of the Department of Business and Trade.
How do you propose that full, fair and prompt redress is
going to be achieved?
The first thing I would say is I understand there has
been, quite rightly, a lot of analysis in this Inquiry
about whether there is a tension between fair redress
and the speed at which it is delivered and I understand
why that is of such importance to the work that is going
on here. Since the general election, there has been
a significant increase in the pace at which compensation
has been paid, the overall quantum of compensation is up
in the last four months by roughly a third, and the
number of claims to which there has been an initial
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I think you can see we've tried to speed up compensation
and redress without that being at the cost of any
claimant feeling that's not an accurate or fair level of
redress for them to receive.
Thank you. We'll get into the specifics of that in due
course. There are two matters that you say that are
particularly important issues of concern, the first you
have described as driving cultural change and the second
is redress. We'll get to redress shortly but, in terms
of cultural change, what do you see as the most
important way in which the culture at the Post Office
can be changed?
I think the scale of this scandal, as I say, cannot be
separated out from the business model and the governance
structure of the Post Office. So we need, from the work
that I lead as Secretary of State and what this Inquiry
is seeking to do, to not just respond to the obvious
injustice and the need for redress to follow that, but
to understand why, as an institution, the Post Office
has gone so wrong, and what needs to change in future.
So, for instance, I believe that is everything from,
you know, the internal governance structure of the Post
Office, right down to the level of remuneration that
postmasters receive. I mean, I think, despite the scale
of this scandal, Post Office is still an incredibly
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offer being made in response to that claim has roughly
doubled in the last four months to what it has been in
the four months preceding the generation
But I would very much want to say that I do not
believe that increase in pace has been at the cost of
fair or accurate compensation being made.
I think if you look at the key decisions that we've
been able to make since the general election - so
obviously the compensation scheme for the overturned
convictions, legislation that was passed in the wash-up
period between the two governments, the appeal scheme.
being announced for the Horizon Shortfall Scheme, the
Publication of the Capture report, the publication of
redress data and the fixed-sum awards being offered
under the HSS scheme, I think you could put that
together into a package and see that we are trying to,
wherever possible, offer a reasonable sum of
compensation by fixed award, if that is what a claimant
themselves wants, a detailed breakdown, if that is the
appropriate way forward, greater capacity to process
claims, greater deadlines in terms of when the 40-day
period we put in place under some of the schemes by
which an initial claim is made.
These are all ways in which - and the position is
still not, you know, to everyone's satisfaction but
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important institution in national life. I think it
still has an incredible role to play in communities
ook at the business model of the Post Office and
I think, even accounting for the changes in the Core
Services that are provided, I mean, people are familiar
with the deciine of letter volumes, there's still
a whole range of services that are really important but
I don't think postmasters make sufficient remuneration
from what the public want from the Post Office.
And I think that’s going to require some very
significant changes to the overall business model of the
Post Office, as well as looking at what the future is in
terms of the governance arrangements, that will,
I think, to be frank, have a greater level of trust and
responsiveness to the people providing the services on
the frontline.
Okay well, once again, we'll get to the detail of that
shortly. If we now focus then on redress and
compensation
We've seen in this Inquiry at certain stages there
has been disagreement between your Department and the
Treasury on matters of redress. In your current
experience, have there been any disagreements during
your term in office?
No, I can genuinely say, Mr Blake, that there haven't
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been, and I know there are a whole range of issues,
perhaps perception of historic tensions between the
Business Department and the Treasury, specifically on
this issue, which is obviously a personal priority for
me but also for many members of the Cabinet. I can say
the support I've received from the Chancellor and the
Chief Secretary to the Treasury, who, of course,
formerly was the Chair of the Business and Trade Select
Committee and the previous incamation of the Business
Department before that, I have exactly what I needed.
So if you look at, for instance, the announcements
in the budget, first of all you see a greater amount of
compensation now appearing in the national accounts,
from the previous figure.
Of course, whilst that's an increase, it's actually
even more significant than that because you will know
the compensation previously for this -- for the four
redress schemes was accounted for in the Treasury
Reserve, which was heavily overspent, so essentially not
only does the budget put a greater sum towards redress,
it confirms that is real money in place.
But you may also have seen in the budget that the
allocation of money for redress has moved from being
DEL -- departmental expenditure limits ~ to annually
managed expenditure, in other words, it is demand led.
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something relating to postal matters?
Well, if, because of the designation, as annually
managed expenditure, to be frank, my assumption behind
that has always been to make sure, if the sum of money
for redress was greater than that, that I could
guarantee it would be paid. I haven't considered
an underspend in any way, if I'm being honest about
that. fit was, that would be a conversation that
I could have with Treasury colleagues but, to be frank,
my efforts have been to make sure that we could
absolutely stand behind any sum of redress that the
process came to.
We've hearing discussions of widening redress to, for
example, assistance and managers, or possibly to family
members. Does that figure cater for that expansion and,
if not, then what is the plan for funding that
expansion?
So you will understand we have, as well as the number of
announcements that we've made, been looking at a whole
range of issues, Mr Blake, exactly as you describe.
A particularly significant one of those is around family
members, where we have been looking at, for instance, if
there was agreement to extend to family members, would
the existing schemes be the right mechanisms through
which people would do that; would it require something
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So whatever the level of redress is required, I can
guarantee that this Government, that the British State,
will be able to pay for that, and that has already been
agreed with the Treasury and has appeared in the budget.
So, in terms of the support from Treasury
colleagues, I could not have asked for more.
Can you assist us, then the £1.8 billion figure that was
announced in the budget, we've heard some evidence
suggesting that's not new money. Is it new money or, if
it isn't, to what extent has that situation changed?
Well, it is new money because the allocations in the
past came from an overall position, and I appreciate
we're getting into some of the politics of the budget
here, where there were frankly too many claims on that
Treasury Reserve for that to be genuinely ever expected
to be paid. Now, governments do sometimes, I think,
historically, you know, ascribe different policy costs
to the Treasury Reserve but, you know, there were more
demands on that money than money existed.
So the confirmation that not only is there a greater
sum of money being allocated to redress but that can be
absolutely guaranteed by myself, by the Treasury and the
Government, is, I think, a significant development
If, ultimately, the claims fall under that level, is the
rest of that amount of money going to be spent on
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else? Obviously a whole range of fairly legal
definitions as to who -- how the scope would cover
everyone who that needed to do.
If there were significant extensions to the eligible
claimants at present, I would seek Treasury agreement
for additional funding for those. It's possible that
sum of money might be sufficient but, if there was to be
an extension in any way, I think the appropriate cause
of action would be to ensure that there are agreements
in place with the Treasury that due funding is available
for those.
Are you personally aware of any cost projections in
respect of how much that might cost?
I haven't seen in any of the official advice I've
received a specific sum of money. I think the costs --
the work being undertaken covers the potential scope but
that could be quite wide or quite narrow, depending on
the definition of harms you were seeking to provide
redress for and, to be frank, you will understand that
part of our work will be guided by the findings of this
Inquiry as well, and the recommendations that might come
from it.
Thank you. Could we please bring up onto screen
BEIS0000888. This is an email exchange that we took the
Minister to on Friday. We now have the underlying
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submissions, so we'll go to the submission as well, but
if we could perhaps start on page 5 and into page 6. At
the bottom of page 5, we have the summary of the
submission. It says:
“Timing: We would be grateful for a swift readout.
Post Office has received regular correspondence from
postmasters awaiting payment of the £75k fixed sum
following the March announcement and we expect it to be
raised during next week's redress announcement.”
It makes number of recommendations to the Minister.
The first is:
“Implementing your predecessors’ announcement to
introduce a fixed-sum award of £75k to [Horizon
Shortfall Scheme] claimants, to bring the scheme in line
with the GLO scheme.
“b) Capping awards at £50k where postmasters reject
the fixed sum and are offered a lower amount with no
option to return to the fixed sum.
“c) Not providing legal advice to claimants to
consider the offer of a fixed sum
“d) Consider whether to delay the introduction of
a fixed-sum award until we have clarity from [the
Treasury] on funding for HSS appeals, noting that this
could take several weeks or months.”
Finally
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the Minister. In the middle of page 2, thank you very
much, it says:
“Thank you for attending the meeting today -- for
the benefit of the chain, the Minister was content with
the recommendations a), b), c) and e) in the
[submission] but has asked not to delay the introduction
of the fixed sums award outline in recommendation d).”
So the potential delay that might be caused in
respect of the appeals mechanism was put to one side,
and the announcement made in any event,
If we please scroll to page 1 we can see that you
had reviewed the submission as well and agreed with
Minister Thomas’ steers. Is that something you recall?
That's right, that's right, Mr Blake.
Perhaps if we're able to, it's only been recently
received but the submission of 22 July should have
a unique reference number of BEIS0001228. Thank you.
It's going to come onto screen. I think it's
a submission that we didn't have as at Friday's hearing
80 I'd like to take you to it, just to clear up a few
matters that were addressed on Friday.
So this is the underlying submission of 22 July. We
see there a summary of the issue:
“This note seeks your agreement on delivering
a fixed-sum award to provide redress to postmasters
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“e) Note the revised application process
We'll come on to most of those but, in terms of (4),
we were just speaking about issues with the Treasury.
Was there an issue here with the Treasury and was it
overcome?
Mr Blake, no, I'm not aware of there being any Treasury
element to the conversation around this. As you say,
the principles behind the key policy features of this
submission had already, I think, broadly been
established in Parliament as desirable, that the way the
election had fallen meant, essentially, previous
announcements were being implemented by ourselves as
a new Government, and the key aspect of this is,
obviously, the presentation of a fixed-sum for those
cases where claimants would feel that that was the best
course of action for them, effectively offering
an expedited fixed sum, so it as to be able to get
‘compensation and redress to people as quickly as
possible and, of course, alongside that, if they
believed that would not be an appropriate level of
redress, the existing ability to have the individual
assessment go forward.
The fixed sum seems to be in relation to the HSS appeals
mechanism. We can come on to look at that shortly. If
we scroll up, please, we see on page 2 confirmation from
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participating in the Horizon Shortfall Scheme."
The "Recommendation" is exactly as we've seen in
that covering email
Can we please turn over the page to page 2.
Paragraph 6 addresses the £50,000 cap. I'm just going
to read to you that paragraph. It says:
“From a public money perspective, the £75k will be
more efficient to administer than the full claims
process. If the £75k remains available to those who
pursue the full claims process, there is a high risk
that many more will choose this option leading to
greater costs and delays. We therefore recommend that
claimants who reject the £75k should not be able to
return to it if, upon full assessment of their claim,
they are awarded a lower amount. Instead, we recommend
that the award is capped at £50k (or the value of the
offer if it exceeds £50k) to ensure fairness and help
provide value for money for the taxpayers. This is
consistent with the approach on the GLO scheme, although
there haven't been any instances of a claimant receiving
lower than £75k in practice."
This is a proposal that has been described as
a jeopardy issue. It's been criticised by some in
respect of the pressure that it places on claimants who
may be elderly, may simply be wanting money as quickly
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as possible, and are put in a position where, if they
don't accept the £75,000, they are at serious risk of
losing a considerable amount of money. What is your
view on that?
So, Mr Blake, the public policy perspective on
paragraph 6 is obviously that, in order to give people
a route to redress as soon as possible, that's what the
fixed sum process is there to do, and my view was always
that that should be set at a level where, for most
people who would consider that, that would be, you know,
a decent level of redress that they would fee! was
appropriate to the situation that they were in.
Obviously you're right to say, when you have
a choice between a fixed sum and an individual
assessment, you wouldn't want there to be a sense of
risk or jeopardy that pushed people to a course of
action that they ideally didn't want to go under. So
the £50,000 reference in paragraph 6 is effectively
a security cap. It's a floor by which you will be aware
if you're going through that process that you don't
risk, for instance, getting a sum of redress which is
considerably below the £75k.
So you will see, I hope, in each of the decisions
made, an attempt to provide people with a genuine choice
as to what is the fair course of redress for them,
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security, if you went down the other route.
Thank you. If we could scroll down because the
submission may be new for a number of the Core
Participants. I'lljust read to you paragraph 9, which
addresses value for money. It says:
“There will be overpayment duty to this
intervention. There is a risk that very small claims
could make up a significant proportion of expected late
applications, and all would be entitled to £75k. As of
June 2024, the Post Office have paid [approximately] 600
claimants £5k or less (and have paid over 100 of these
claimants less than £1k). However, officials believe
the measure provides [value for money] overall as there
are no lower cost alternatives that ensure equal
treatment of [the Horizon Shortfall Scheme] and GLO
claimants. Offering a lower or no fixed payment is
unlikely to reduce the overpayment risk and may increase
the total costs to [the Government]. The £75k fixed
payment also reduces the administrative costs of
resolving potential appeals due to under-settlements.
As set out above it also mitigates some of the
criticisms that the [Horizon Shortfall Scheme]
applicants have under-claimed due to the lack of upfront
legal advice and problems with the consequential loss.
guidance."
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bearing in mind quantum of redress and the timescale at
which they will receive it, but always trying through,
whether there's the £50k floor in this proposal or, for
instance, through the HSS appeals scheme that we've
announced, a set of checks and balances that hopefully
give people assurance that it’s not an attempt to force
people down a route they wouldn't necessarily want to go
down, but to give them some assurance.
How about the consideration of value for money for
taxpayers in setting the £50,000 level where it is?
Well, I think in every decision that you make as
a government minister you always have to have regard for
the fact that this is taxpayers money, ultimately,
you're making decisions and you want it spent fairly,
but the key determinant, I would say, of the sums of
money in this submission, is what are the appropriate
levels from the perspective of faimess for redress that
are putin place. You will see, obviously, I think
people understand, if you didn't have the distinction
between the two schemes, you wouldn't be creating
essentially the capacity to consider the more complex
claims in a way that you would want to make sure there's
fair and speedy redress for people in that cohort.
Equally, I think you wouldn't want a situation where
it was a choice between a fixed sum and no kind of
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Does that summarise for you the position in respect
of the value for money?
Yes, Mr Blake, I have always accepted there will be, in
some cases, effectively an overpayment, relative to the
actual financial loss but I think we would all accept,
when you consider what the Post Office, what the UK
State has put some of these people through, there's
a wider set of factors to consider, and that the kind of
approach articulated in paragraph 9, whilst, yes, on the
one hand there would be some people who could nominally
be said to receive a considerable sum in relation to the
shortfalls that they had been held accountable for, when.
considered in aggregate, this is a fair and reasonable
approach.
Thank you if we please turn over the page and scroll
down to paragraph 16, about halfway through that
paragraph, it says:
“Officials have discussed a potential closure date
of 31 March with Post Office, but this timing may need
to be reviewed. You will receive separate advice on
scheme closure date in the next few weeks.”
We're going to come on shortly to the closure dates
of both the Horizon Shortfall Scheme and also the GLO.
Are you able to confirm whether you did receive
subsequent advice on this issue?
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Yes, I have received, Mr Blake, a further advice note on
the potential closing dates for some of the compensation
schemes.
Thank you. If we scroll over the page, please, there's
a section on legal costs, that's in respect of the
advice that's provided to applicants to the scheme:
“The current policy on the [Horizon Shortfall
Scheme] legal costs is that Post Office will reimburse
reasonable fees for postmasters to seek advice on their
offer of compensation. For those who wish to accept the
£75k fixed sum, either as a top-up where they have
already settled their claim below this amount or those
who have not yet settled, we do not think that the costs
of legal advice should be reimbursed. This is because:
the value for money is diminished by incurring
significant expenditure on claimant's legal fees; legal
involvement will slow delivery down; and postmasters who
settled below £75k have already had the opportunity to
seek legal advice and are now being offered a higher
amount."
Can you assist us, then why is it that applicants
who accept the fixed-sum award should not be provided
with legal advice?
So, Mr Blake, the intention of this point, of the
policy, from my point of view, was always that
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claims would technically result in overpayment if they
went down the fixed-sum route to redress. So my
assumption here has always been that there will be
a significant and is a significant group of claimants
for whom this decision is relatively straightforward and
anyone in that more complex position would go down the
route of individual assessment, and, in fact, we'd have
greater capacity to give those people appropriate
redress at the pace they needed it at, if we were able
to free up capacity to do so because of being able to
offer a significant fixed-sum award to people who were
in a position to make that decision quite clearly.
I will, just say in relation to that, I'm aware that
there has been, you know, at various times, particularly
in the public domain, criticisms about, you know, how
many different stages this process involves, you know,
different sets of lawyers and the cost of those. That
has never been a factor, you know, in a decision like
this. When you look again at the scale of this
injustice, you wouldn't want to, in any way, limit
access to legal advice as part of that. This was simply
about how to appropriately run the compensation schemes.
Thank you. Paragraph 19 says:
“There is a risk that not offering legal advice will
be criticised as unfair on postmasters given previous
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I believed people who were able to make a very clear
personal choice that they would be in a satisfactory
position to accept the fixed-sum award would be able to
do so, and the point in relation to legal advice was
really to continue with the aspirations that that could
be delivered at a significantly faster pace than
previous compensation had to date.
it was always my belief, and is my belief, that
anybody who has a more complicated case, who believed
they were borderline in terms of whether the £75,000
fixed sum would be adequate redress or not, would go
down the route of individual assessment, and this was
simply a way of getting appropriate redress to
a significant group of people as possible who would be
able to make that decision without regard to their own
legal advice.
Do you recognise the risks that have been articulated in
the Inquiry about certain individuals who might fall
slightly above the £75,000, say £85,000 or £95,000, and
don't take legal advice and end up in a worse position?
Yes, absolutely. I think whenever there's any kind of
threshold in public policy it's always people close to,
above or near on that threshold that some of these
particular issues will emerge from. You referenced in
your previous question the fact that a number of the
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‘commentary about low levels of legal representation for
claimants in the [Horizon Shortfall Scheme]. However,
as this intervention will benefit postmasters and is
intended to be delivered swiftly, itis a defensible
approach that ensures the benefits of the policy are
fully realised and we recommend that approach.
A separate decision to introduce an appeals mechanism
would also help here.”
Can you assist us, what is the current position on
the appeals mechanism, so far as you're aware?
Yes. So we have made the announcement that we will
accept the Advisory Board's request for an appeals
mechanism. That work is proceeding at pace.
I believe — and I hope you will understand I have to
formally announce any new initiatives to Parliament
itself - but I hope to be able to have some of the
details able to be presented to the House of Commons in
a very short period of time, certainly looking towards
the very beginning of next year.
Thank you. In terms of the fixed sum, we've heard some
evidence about concems for those who sign up to that
fixed sum, that they are waiving any right to an appeals
mechanism that they're not yet aware of how it will
work. What's your view on that?
Well, you will have seen in the bundle that the
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reference to this that I made in an oral statement
I made to Parliament, shortly after becoming the
Secretary of State. In that statement, I talk about how
the appeals mechanism is, in design, there to make sure
people who feel that there hasn't been appropriate
consideration of all the evidence, they've got new
evidence, can then have that considered through that
appeal process.
In practice, I believe that appeals scheme will be
open to anyone who is dissatisfied with the result of
their claim. Given the appropriate safeguards, caps and
a process that's in place already, I'm not sure that
will be too large a group of people but I think it’s
an important safeguard in the system to have. But,
effectively, just to repeat that, to be clear, I see
that as being available to anyone under the HSS scheme
who is dissatisfied with the result of their claim.
Q._ Might that include those who accepted the fixed sum?
‘A. Not those who have accepted the fixed sum, or I believe
that would result in insufficient capacity in that
scheme to deal with the kinds of cases we're most
interested in making sure have again had that full,
speedy and effective redress.
Q. Can we please turn to RLIT00004 13, please.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Before we do, Mr Blake, could I just ask
25
I think, and I'm expressing a very provisional opinion,
to think that the claimant in those borderline cases
either has to make a decision without legal advice or
pay for it themselves.
So my question to you is, why is it a blanket no
recompense for legal advice, as opposed to a more
nuanced policy, which would allow for, shall we say, the
obtaining of legal advice when it's obviously
a borderline case?
A. Yes, thank you, Sir Wyn. I know you've taken
a particular interest in this matter, quite rightly
I would say the view in terms of the submissions that we
received, that became the policy, was that to involve
legal advice in such a way in the fixed sum would go
against the objective of having a route to redress that
was speedy, straightforward, easy to deliver at pace.
Ihave always been of the view, as I said to Mr Blake
earlier that anyone with any, perhaps, complexity or
grey area in whether that would be the appropriate route
for them would anyway go down the individual assessment
route and take the offer of the funded legal advice.
That was part of that. I appreciate what you're
asking specifically is why not have an area — a bit of
discretion in that, in terms of those particular cases?
I think that is a very reasonable point and I can assure
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‘one or two questions about this myself?
MR BLAKE: Absolutely.
‘SIR WYN WILLIAMS: First of all, in relation to
paragraph 19, since it's stil
screen -- this is one of the things that's going around
in my head, Mr Reynolds, so I would like your help with
it,
well, it was on the
My understanding is that, under the HSS scheme that
operated before fixed offers were introduced, once the
scheme got to the point where an offer was made to
a claimant, he or she, that is the claimant, at that
point could take legal advice and be recompensed for the
cost of it, subject to a limit, about whether or not the
offer should be accepted or not, all right?
Now, ina sense, all that's happening with a fixed
sum is that an offer is being made at a much earlier
stage because many of the steps leading to an offer have
been left out. So I'm still struggling to see why
there's a blanket refusal to allow legal advice about
the offer of £75,000. I take your point, Mr Reynolds,
that for many people the answer will be obvious and, in
those circumstances, I think you can reasonably assume
that they wouldn't bother with legal advice.
But there are going to be some cases where there are
difficult decisions to be made, and it's quite tough,
26
you that we are looking very much to the work of this
Inquiry, in terms of lessons for the future and whether
there would be the need, when, you know, dealing with
schemes like this, or indeed this one, to take account
of that. So I take on board your feedback on that point
very much.
‘SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Well, I am not making a recommendation in
advance, Mr Reynolds, I assure you, but I did want to
clear my thought process at the very least about that,
so thank you very much. Could we go back to
paragraph 6, please.
MRBLAKE: That's page 2.
‘SIR WYN WILLIAMS: It's the sentence four lines down:
"We therefore recommend that claimants who reject
the £75k should not be able to retum to it if, upon
full assessment of their claim, they are awarded a lower
amount.”
Fine, all right. I'll park that and think about it.
But there's an intermediate position, isn't there, which
I want to canvas with you again because I'm sort of
having these ideas floating in my head. The £75,000 is
rejected, and the claimant goes down the route of full
assessment but, long before he or she gets to full
assessment, he or she realises (a) that their claim may
not be as valuable as they thought or (b) just out of
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frustration, they are fed up with the process.
There is no getting off point, as I understand it,
once you reject the £75k, you've rejected it once and
for all. You can't change your mind, shall we say,
three or six months later but long before any offer is
made to you; is that reasonable, do you think?
A. Well, Sir Wyn, I believe that is the position.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes.
A. I have to be frank, I've never considered a situation
properly where someone is in that place where they may
wish, before the final determination is made, to change
their route to redress. So I think that is
an interesting proposition. I think you'd have to, in
order to maintain the objectives here of the two routes
to redress, decide when and how that would be
appropriate to do so. It would also be my aspiration,
to be frank, that compensation redress is delivered at
such a pace that there aren't significant periods
between the claim coming in and the money going out the
door to pay for that redress, but that is unfortunately
the situation we have with a number of the claims.
So I think there would have to be some appropriate
safeguards in place as to when that were possible. But
itis something that could happen, if that would be
where we believed we needed to make an alteration, again
29
participate?
A. MrBlake, I've thought about this a great deal and,
obviously, anything put forward by Sir Alan in
particular I'l consider to a significant degree. The
position I'm in is I'm trying to make sure people get
redress for a horrendous scandal, and that's
an important job of work. Ata minimum, I don't want to
do anything that makes that injustice even worse, and
the worry about a deadline, can you imagine a situation
where, for whatever reason, a claim has not come in,
I think it would be unconscionable to say that is not
going to be considered.
Now, where I really do share Sir Alan's frustration
is in the fact that the real significant delay in the
GLO scheme is in the claims arriving in because of the
preparation for them. So I share all of Minister
Thomas’ concems but the last note I sent to my own
officials was to say that, if there was a situation
where we were still, going into next year, frustrated at
the lack of claims coming in, even though I've got those
concems I've just articulated, I may wish to go forward
with something like that, that would make clear I've got
to have those claims in, in order to get people the
redress and the justice that they deserve.
Now, I'd obviously want to make sure I was putting
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to provide the right redress to people at a pace that
they deserve it.
‘SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Thank you.
Thanks, Mr Blake. Back to you.
MR BLAKE: Thank you very much.
If we could return, then, to that Guardian article
at RLITO000413. It addresses the potential deadline,
and this time it addresses the GLO scheme, rather than
the Horizon Shortfall Scheme. But I'll just read to you
a few passages:
"Post Office operators affected by the Horizon IT
scandal will not all receive payouts by the March 2025
deadline called for by the campaigner Sir Alan Bates,
the postal minister has admitted.
"Gareth Thomas said it would be difficult to achieve
the deadline but promised that there would be
‘substantial progress’ towards clearing the compensation
claim backlog by next summer.”
It says a little further down:
I wish I could commit to Sir Alan's timeframe’,
said Thomas, speaking to BBC Breakfast on Wednesday.
‘I think we will have made substantial progress by next
‘summer’.”
Are you in the same position: are you not able to
commit to a timeframe and, if so, when, do you
30
myself in a position where I wasn't committing any
further injustice in the future but, if my frustration,
in those claims not arriving at the Department meant
that I felt that was the only way to speed this up, and
elt that wasn't going to prejudice any individual
claim, based on the information that I had, it will be
something that I will consider because obviously I want
to get redress to these people that they deserve, as
soon as possible.
Have you done any blue-sky thinking, either in respect
of the Horizon Shortfall Scheme or the GLO or in respect
of any of the other schemes, as to whether matters can
be sped up, whether it's by lowering the evidential
burden or in some way making it easier and quicker?
We think about the pace at which redress has been
delivered a great deal, and I said to you in my
introductory answers that obviously we have seen
an increase since the election, but that has always
been, for my personal view, not in such a way that has
reduced the accuracy of the redress payments being made
or in a way which has meant that claims today are being
dealt with to a different evidential threshold to ones
in the past. I think there probably would be some
judicial review, you know, risk if that were seen to be
the case.
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Where we've seen increases in the pace at which
redress has been delivered, some of those are just
old-fashioned issues of capacity and focus. As I say,
it has been clearly an objective of the new ministers,
of the new Government, to make sure this is being done
at pace but, again, I'd just like to reassure people
that there is no sense of that being done at the cost of
accuracy or a change to how cases are being considered
relative to the past.
Thank you. 1'd like to move on to a new topic which is
the Post Office Horizon System Offences Act. It came in
just before the election. I think you've said in your
statement that you that some involvement. Can you
assist us with what that involvement was?
That's right. I mean, people will be familiar with the
challenge that the then government had and we, as the
opposition, were sensitive to, which was you have
a large cohort of people for whom they were clearly
wrongly convicted. There are two major problems with
the traditional route to overturning those convictions:
the Criminal Cases Review Process and Commission.
Firstly that a lot of those people had lost all faith in
the justice system and I think we can understand why
that would be the case and, second of all, the time
frames for where we had got to and extrapolating that to
33
a common occurrence for Acts of Parliament to overturn
the courts. That is not an easy or attractive
proposition to have. So I really led conversations on
our side of the aisle within the Labour Party about why
I believe this was the best and only vehicle to doing
that and, between ourselves, I believe we secured the
cross-party agreement that was necessary ~ I should
say, at this point -- we had no idea the general
election was coming, so we had no idea it would be part
of the expedited process that happens when an election
is called to pass, the so-called wash-up procedure, when
legislation goes through much quicker than it usually
does.
And I think if you looked at some of the Hansard
exchanges around that, we very much tried to indicate
the unique circumstances that had led to this position
being reached, and the cross-party agreement that lay
behind that, and some of those protections we thought
were necessary around that. But I will say, Mr Blake,
I'm very much aware, in a year, 10 years, 50 years,
whatever, there will be people who will say, you know,
that was not the right decision because of the
constitutional precedent, which I don't believe it did
set by the way a precedent because of the unique
circumstances of this, but I know people will maybe cite
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where we would get to were, for years and years -~-
I mean, it was absolutely conceivable that if we had
relied on the traditional constitutional route to doing
that, many of those people would never have had the
justice they deserved and obviously would never have got
then the redress that they deserved because they would
have been, at that point, in the process.
So when -- I felt I'd had a good working
relationship with the then Conservative Government's
Postal Affairs Minister, Minister Hollinrake, when the
potential — he approached me and told me that there was
potential for, you know, an Act of Parliament, very
significant constitutional terms, of course, to overturn
these convictions, I was immediately aware of just how
significant that would be and the reasonable concerns
a lot of people would have about constitutional
protections and oversight of that, but just, looking at
the problem, it was clear to me that was really the only
vehicle that we had to deliver justice.
And so you will I think, Mr Blake, appreciate, you
know, in any political context, you've got to consider
not just the here and now but what are the precedents
people might take from that?
You know, I think we'd all say we wouldn't want
a system where there were -- you know, where it was
34
that in future.
But I absolutely believe, without that cross-party
agreement and breakthrough, we'd be in a position here
today where this cohort of people would not have had
their convictions overturned and they would not be
receiving redress.
Are you able to provide us with any update as to how
many people have been contacted in respect of that
legislation?
Yes, Mr Blake. So you will be aware of something, to be
frank, at the time when we were having these discussions
and it wasn't until I'd become the Secretary of State,
and was several weeks into the job, that I became aware
of, which is the Ministry of Justice, which obviously ~
the judicial system held the records for this group of
cases -- was not in a position to speedily inform this
cohort of people of their eligibility - that their
convictions had been overturned and their eligibility
for redress.
I'm really aware of the fact that this is -- this
whole issue is an example where there's a sense to
different bits of Government, different bits of the
State not accepting accountability, so when I talk about
my frustrations with the records, it's not me in any way
passing blame or the buck for that, but I simply wasn't
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aware that it wouldn't be relatively straightforward
having had this breakthrough to contact these people.
For the people in the Horizon Convictions Redress
Scheme, there are 172 claims that have been received.
That is up considerably obviously because it's
a relatively new scheme. Full and final settlements
under that scheme are now at 36 but there's still
a significant number of people therefore who haven't had
those interim claims. Because of the problems with the
records we made a direct appeal for people to contact us
directly and go into the system, though I again
appreciate they will say, "Why don't you have the
records to contact us?", and we are regularly in touch
with the Ministry of Justice about their efforts to
identify specifically claims; the nightmare scenario
frankly would be someone receiving a letter who wasn't
eligible to receive it.
But itis a frustration and, again, I would repeat
the point that people who are in this position can
contact the Government directly in order to go into the
system and that the Ministry of Justice is working at
pace on their side of this to make sure they're
identifying the right people.
You spoke about those who aren't eligible. We have
heard some evidence in relation to a category of people
37
pass their own legislation because of the devolved
nature of justice across the United Kingdom
But specific to the cohort you referenced, Mr Blake,
I believe the previous Government system assessment was
they would already have had their individual
circumstances assessed and therefore in a different
position to the majority of the cohort who were ~ then
needed this legislation in order to have their
convictions overtumed.
How about that other group that you identified: those
who were prosecuted by other agencies?
So again, I believe -- if I recall the conversations
that were had and exchanges in Parliament, that was
based on a genuine sense that the circumstances of those
cases were different, so there wasn't the same failure
of disclosure that we were aware of in the Post Office
prosecutions. And that frankly there would be, within
that cohort, a greater number of cases where there were
legitimate issues that had been pursued, and the blanket
exoneration of the Act of Parliament wouldn't be the
appropriate vehicle to include for those cases.
Thank you. My final topic today relates to the future
of the Post Office. If we put aside what external
consultants may be planning, so Boston Consulting Group,
I think, have been involved in planning. We've heard
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who aren't covered by the legislation, that's, for
‘example, those who appealed but who were refused leave
to appeal or whose appeals were rejected and, as
a result of them having previously appealed, they are
then cut out of a scheme that overturns the convictions
of those who didn't even go to the appeals stage
What is your view on that position?
So the specific criteria for eligibility under the Act
of Parliament, obviously that was decided by the
previous Government but we were aware through the
Parliamentary exchanges of the decisions that were
taken. I think the two most significant ones were this
cohort of people, so people who had already been able to
go through the justice system but had not had their
convictions overturned, the view being that they had
already had the details of their case assessed in that
way.
And the other cohort were people who were not
prosecuted by the Post Office, they were, for instance,
by the Department of Work and Pensions, where there
would be a different set of factors, different position
in terms of obviously the well known failure of
disclosure process by the Post Office, wouldn't apply to
them, and they'd been a different position. I should
say as well, of course, that the devolved governments
38
about a strategic review from a company called Teneo.
If we put those all aside, do you have any ideas as to
how the Post Office might be changed to avoid
a repetition of what we've seen in the past?
Yes, Mr Blake. So as I said this in my earlier answers,
I believe you cannot separate out the issues of justice
and redress that this Inquiry is rightly dealing with
from those wider conversations about the future of the
Post Office. I think the governance has to change.
I think one of the most legitimate, you know, questions
that I get, you know, from members of the public and
constituents is the question of how did the Post Office
not believe something must have gone wrong when all of
a sudden after Horizon was introduced, there was a huge
spike in convictions; what did they think was going on?
And I think you have to assume that what they
thought was that Horizon was catching people, rather
than something could have gone wrong with the system and
it's just inconceivable that that number of people were
all of a sudden committing, you know, criminal offences
and needed to be prosecuted.
And so the governance model has to change. There
has to be connected to the change in the business model
where postmasters have to earn more money from the
services the public want. I want to say specifically,
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because I know it's come up in the media, that any
question about the future structure/governance of the
Post Office would not be this Government just, you
know -- for instance, on the point of potential
mutualisation, it wouldn't be just passing it over and
saying "Look, there that you go, you're going to run
yourselves in a different way". We're very much aware
that the structure and the business model has to change
in order to be sustainable. There are obviously some
particular issues like the funding of a replacement for
Horizon, which couldn't be funded at the minute from the
Post Office itself.
So those issues have to be addressed before we then
look to what the future relationship is, but I am
absolutely certain that the future has to be one that
addresses the lack of trust, the lack of reciprocity
and, you know, genuine regard for people who are
providing the front-door services of the Post Office.
‘And frankly I believe anything should be on the
table as to the right way forward around that. But, as
I say again, it has to come after we make sure that the
position of the Post Office is a long-term sustainable
one.
Thank you, Secretary of State. I have one or two more
questions, we are very close to 11.00, perhaps we can
41
the specific breakdown of trust between different parts
of the organisation and provide a route going forward.
Some of the work that you mention, I mean, the
distinction I'd have between, say, the Post Office's
work with Teneo is that that's really about the kind of
nuts and bolts of the business model, where is money
coming in; where does it go; how can that change; what's
the course of action required for the future?
Whereas the Boston Consulting Group work with my
Department is really more about the kind of fundamental
purpose as, you know, technology has impacted on some of
the traditional services the Post Office operates, the
future of cash, we're very keen as Government on Banking
Hubs, which is -- don't necessarily have to be run by
the Post Office but usually are. They are in my
hometown of Stalybridge, so there's a set of factors
both for the Post Office as a business, if you like, and
then its fundamental purpose, both being looked at by
the appropriate levels of Government.
The future, in terms of what that structure might
look like, and it could be something different —
I mean, I give that some thought. You will understand,
to address some of the problems I'm talking about, that
can't just be a top-down decision from the Secretary of
State. The aspirations around the Green Paper, which
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take a pause?
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Mr Blake, I make it 10.59 and I'm sure no
one would regard it as disrespectful if we take
a natural pause, which is now. So I propose to start
the minute's silence now, and people in the hall may
stand if they wish or sit as they prefer. I am in
a room on my own, so I will continue to sit down. But
the minute begins now.
(Pause for one-minute's silence)
MRBLAKE: Thank you very much.
Secretary of State, have you given any consideration
to some fundamental issues, such as whether
a self-sustainability, self-sufficiency model is ever
a realistic ambition? We heard from one of your
predecessors, Greg Clark, some novel ideas about
a fundamental change to the type of company that the
Post Office is, some sort of public organisation that is
not a private company; are you able to assist us with
your thinking on that?
A. Yes, Mr Blake.
I mean, as I say, I don't think anything should be.
off the table for the future. I think alternative
governance models, mutualisation is one, I think, that's
been in some of the media coverage. You know, it would
have some particular advantages in terms of dealing with
42
I think Minister Thomas mentioned, which we intend to
publish next year, is a chance for that wider
conversation, a national conversation, to be frank about
that,
\ believe as an institution, as a brand, there's
still tremendous public affection for and desire for the
Post Office to have a strong future but we've got to
consider all of these issues as to its future business
and how it is run as part of that process.
Q._ Can you see a time prior to the Green Paper on which the
Inquiry could be updated as to your thinking?
A. I think we certainly are progressing conversations with
the Post Office as to how they wish to make sure the
business model side of change is progressing. I think
there will be the opportunity to update the Inquiry
about some of that. I believe the questions about
governance are probably best suited to the Green Paper
because, again, fundamentally, we want to be getting the
input of postmasters themselves at the frontline as to
what they would like to see, what would give them.
reassurance that the culture and effectiveness of the
organisation was changing as part of that.
But, if there were any developments at Departmental
level, I think it would be, you know, straightforward to
be able to provide the Inquiry with an update to that
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regard.
MR BLAKE: Thank you very much, Secretary of State. There
are a small number of questions from Core Participants.
Sir, unless you have any questions, I will turn
to~
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Please do. IfI have any at the end,
I'l ask them at the end, all right, Mr Blake?
MR BLAKE: It's Mr Stein.
Questioned by MR STEIN
MR STEIN: Mr Reynolds, my name is Sam Stein. I represent
a large number of subpostmasters affected by the
scandal. Many of them engaged in the High Court case,
the GLO litigation, as we call it, in 2019, and the
spread of people I represent include people that were
not subpostmasters but also managers, people working in
branches, and importantly, at least for today's
discussion, as regards what's going on, strategy-wise
for the Post Office, people that are still serving as
subpostmasters.
In answer to Mr Blake's question just a second ago,
which was about the timing or timeline for the delivery
of a Green Paper, and your answer, which was that you
felt it was best put within a Green Paper, you're a very
experienced, long-term serving politician. Also,
currently, you're in place as the Minister in charge of
45
things in the way you've just said them, in a way, which
is, "We aim to do things really quite soon, we're
getting on with it", and so on. Can you give us even
a time bracket for the delivery of a Green Paper: as
an example, next year?
A. Yes, next year. That's the ~
Q._ Right. First half of next year; second half of next
year?
A. Itwould be my personal aspiration for the first half of
next year.
Q._ Now, you understand that this Inquiry was set up with
terms of reference which included obviously learning
lessons from the criticisms made by Mr Justice Fraser in
the High Court, and also assessing whether the processes
and information provided by Post Office to post masters
are sufficient. So I'm reading from the terms of
reference.
So the processes and information provided by Post
Office are sufficient to enable both parties to meet
their contractual obligations, to enable postmasters to
run their businesses. This includes assessing whether
Post Office Limited's related processes, such as
recording/resolving postmaster queries, dispute
handling, suspension, termination, are fit for purpose.
In addition, determine whether the quality of the
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DBT. Can you give us the actual timeline, likely
timeline for such a Green Paper?
So the aspiration for the Green Paper that Minister
Thomas referenced in his evidence is for next year. I'm
afraid I can't give you any more specific guidelines
than that, but I if it would be appropriate, can check
with the Department and maybe write, if we've got
an indicative part of, how we believe that would be
ready. I should say that that's simply because, you'll
be aware, some of the very earliest, most significant
priorities of the new Government have been delivered by
the Department for Business and Trade, the Employment
Bill, for instance, or the Investment Summit. So please
don't take any sort of sense that it's not an urgent
priority; i's just that the number of things the
Department has had to do in the first three to four
months of the Government have been extensive.
But the conversations we're having about the future
of the Post Office, which are almost on a weekly basis
in the Department, should be an indication of just how
significant we see this work, and it would be my
aspiration, given I think the level of national interest
in the future of the Post Office, to have that available
and start that conversation as soon as possible.
We've had a number of witnesses recently that have said
46
service offer for postmasters and their relationship
with Post Office Limited has materially improved since
the conclusions reached by Mr Justice Fraser.
So the terms of reference of this Inquiry are not
just historic.
Mm.
The word “are” means currently. At the moment, we're in
this rather odd position, which is this Inquiry has been
now running for a number of years. There have been
grave difficulties with disclosure, obtaining of
material, that have contributed to the length of this
Inquiry. The judgment at the High Court in 2019, which
was a seminal judgment -- two judgements, sorry, in
2019 -- heavily criticising the Post Office is the
starting point for this Inquiry.
Yet we hear from you that the changes to take place
within the Post Office, the ones that you spoke about at
10.11 this morning, which are about a new business
model, about the new direction of the Post Office, we
hear from you and other witnesses that these are still
yet to take place. So that means that the terms of
reference of this Inquiry are simply, we are going to
submit to the Inquiry chair, not going to be complete
until we know, until we can see and examine what is
happening to the Post Office.
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How is this Inquiry going to be able to examine
whether the new model that you've discussed —-
Mr Railton has called it change in polarity of the Post
Office -- how are we going to examine that, Mr Reynolds,
considering all of these discussions are ongoing at the
moment and that we may get a Green Paper somehow in the
first part of the next year?
Well, I can understand the frustration that underlines
a question like that. In fact, I can't speak for the
previous Government, although, you know, I would say on
all of this we've played this completely straight
without any politics trying to be cooperative in
opposition and then continue some of that work into
government. So I can't speak for how significant the
conversations were, you know, before 4 July. I can only
say, for our part, if you look at the first, you know,
three to four months, there was an urgent need, first of
all, to make some of the decisions we've been through
this morning, on the redress scheme for the overtumed
convictions following legislation, the appeal scheme,
the fixed-sum awards, the work around the Capture system
as well.
There was an immediate need around issues of redress
to respond to that. I believe, potentially, the
previous government may have been looking for some sort
49
as to progress and changes being made, are you prepared
to retumn?
Of course, if Sir Wyn wanted me to return I would be
more than happy to.
Now, compensation issues, at one point, in dealing with
a question from Sir Wyn, you thanked him for his
feedback. Again, we're left in this odd position: the
length of time it's taken to get to where we are
regarding compensation means that we're about to close
the evidence of this Inquiry as of this moment, unless
Sir Wyn directs otherwise, this week. We get to closing
submissions through the remainder of the year and we
have oral submissions on, I think, 16 and 17 December.
I'l be corrected if I have that date wrong.
That means, in effect, that the oversight of
compensation issues directly from this Inquiry,
essentially, is going to go, unless Sir Wyn directs
otherwise, to retum to these matters in another hearing
date. It also means that the questions of the appeal
mechanism, the question of whether the thresholds are
correctly placed, the question of whether lawyers should
be allowed to advise people that have justifiable claims
but perhaps don't realise the extent of them, those
won't that have the Inquiry's oversight.
How are we to determine whether, in fact, you and
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of steer or guide from this Inquiry, and you quite
rightly make the point that you see that as part of the
process itself.
But I do know, in terms of the speed at which we've
been looking, not just at the issues of redress but the
future, and some of the decisions that are going to be
in the public domain fairly soon, that sense of, you
know, transformation is happening now, and I respect
very much your point that you'd like to be able to
assess that for a plan now. I don't think, to be frank,
in opposition that plan could have been drawn up in any
adequate level of detail but, if you are telling me
specifically that you feel that needs to be expedited in
order to be a part of the kind of consideration that you
are having in this Inquiry, I understand that very much,
and can tell you, that will inform my decisions going
back to the Department.
But I don't think, given where we are sat here
today, we could have increased the speed any further
than we have, either for redress or the future business
model of the Post Office.
Mr Reynolds, are you prepared to return to this Inquiry?
It's a matter for Sir Wyn to decide but, if Sir Wyn, as
an example, would wish to hear from you again and
possibly Mr Thomas, the Post Office Minister, and hear
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your colleagues are going to be doing the right thing
about these issues? Can we have a commitment from you
to report back as to the changes that you are going to
make on those very self-same issues: that is the
threshold question, the access to lawyers, the date of
the appeal mechanisms. Can we have that commitment from
you, Mr Reynolds?
Well, I can give you a commitment that we keep the
performance of all of the compensation schemes under
review. I'm very sensitive to the fact that Sir Wyn was
clear he's not making a specific recommendation under
any of those schemes. Of course, it has always been my
view that the work we do as ministers, both in relation
to the compensation schemes and the future of the Post
Office, will of course have a considerable and indeed
total regard to the findings of this Inquiry. So you
ask a slightly different question, which is about
keeping the review and potential changes to those
schemes available while the Inquiry is going on. So I'd
have to be guided by Sir Wyn in relation to that.
You see there's a bit of a trap here, Mr Reynolds. What
has happened is there have been delays to those schemes.
We've had witness after witness saying there have been
problems with getting these schemes worked out, problems
in setting them set up, difficulties in assessing their
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breadth, and so on, a litany of problems that have
delayed the activities of those schemes. But that delay
itself has now led to a lack of potential oversight from
Sir Wyn, so there's a trap that's been set up by
a failure to grasp the issues. So what we need is,
rather than you saying, "Well, you've heard Sir Wyn", we
need a commitment to change on those very self same
issues?
We can ask, of course, Sir Wyn to frankly give
an interim report or set out his own view on these
matters. That will be a matter for him. What we need
is for you to say, "There are problems here, we need to
resolve them and they need to be resolved in favour of
subpostmasters”. I've called this before, with other
witnesses, a spirit of generosity —-
Forgive my voice, it seems to be going today, which
is an unfortunate problem for an advocate.
But I've called it the spirit of generosity that
decisions such as this should be made in favour of the
subpostmaster, and they need to be made in favour of the
subpostmasters frankly sooner rather than later; don't
you agree?
Yes, I would agree with that and I would say, if you
look at the actions we've taken to date, I think we can
demonstrate that through each of the decisions that
53
of Fujitsu, he has come to the Inquiry, he has given
evidence to the Select Committee. There's been
an apology from Fujitsu for its role within this
scandal.
We've asked questions of Mr Patterson, which is to
what extent is Fujitsu prepared to put its financial
muscle behind redress. Now, redress comes in two
different ways. Fujitsu have said that they would
consider contributions towards compensation. But they
will not do so until the close of this Inquiry, okay?
That appears to be their current position. Mr Patterson
is giving evidence about such matters later on today.
Have there been any approaches from Fujitsu to
Government to actually set out the structure of what it
is proposing by way of contributions to compensation?
So no, I've not received any specific information in
relation to that. My understanding is the same as
yours: that there's been an acceptance of, I believe,
the phrase used was a moral responsible to make
a contribution, but that they were waiting for the
findings of the Inquiry before taking that forward.
I would welcome to see what the evidence will be in the
remaining sessions but I have always envisaged, at some
point, those kind of conversations being necessary.
25 Q. Well, can we try it another way round. Has the
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we've made, whether that's the approach to the
publication of data under the different redress schemes,
whether that's the openness around the Capture report
that we published, whether it's the changes with the
route to fixed-sum compensation or the appeals scheme or
indeed the redress scheme for Overturned Convictions.
So where there is a need, where I receive direct
feedback that this part of the scheme, perhaps through
the evidence of this Inquiry or a direct approach to me,
where I believe there are changes that need to be made,
I think we've demonstrated that we will make them and we
will remain open to doing so in respect of any part of
the system of redress, if we feel or see evidence that
it's not working as it should.
Sitting just two across from me is Mr Enright, he's
partner at Howe+Co solicitors. He has been involved in
this matter and his firm has been involved in this.
matter for many, many years. Are you prepared to meet
with him to continue to keep an eye on these very
self-same issues directly, so that he can discuss with
you the progress and report back, as far as he can, the
information that you'll you give him as to these issues?
Yes, more than happy to give that commitment.
Can I tum then to Fujitsu and its role in this matter.
Fujitsu has Mr Patterson, who is the European Director
54
Government, to your knowledge, that's in the last four
months, under your own leadership with the DBT, or to
your knowledge prior to a Labour Government, has the
Government reached out to Fujitsu and said, "Well, hang
on, we are spending an awful lot of money on
compensation, you've made a promise, it seems, to
contribute. Why are you waiting for the close of this
Inquiry? That seems to be running out the Inquiry so
you're not under observation"
That's —
Has the Government done that; has the Government
approached Fujitsu?
I have not had that direct conversation. I am not aware
if officials have had it at that level. It was
genuinely always my understanding that the Inquiry would
conclude before that element would be addressed
Would you consider approaching Fujitsu? It's quite
convenient Mr Patterson is here today. Maybe there's
an opportunity, given time restraints in the busy
timetable for a minister, just to have a word to set up
a meeting?
Yes, I believe that will be a necessary meeting to have
I should say I've also been confronted with some rather
unwelcome decisions I will have to make about the
replacement for Horizon, the budget that I have walked
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in to find that being allocated, which is very, very
large and I think there are questions as to whether that
is the right way forward that we're talking to the Post
Office about, and frankly the need to have further
involvement with Fujitsu to make sure there is
a transition between the existing system and what the
future will be, which I believe neither Fujitsu
themselves would ideally want to be involved in and,
frankly, I wouldn't ideally want to be in the position
I'm in where I might have to make a decision to extend
that involvement in order to make sure that system is
properly accounted for before a new system is in place.
So there are some issues already of engagement
between the DBT and Fujitsu that will have to be there
and, as I say, some of that is frankly less welcome than
it would be, but that's simply the situation I've walked
through the door to find.
Q._Lastly, and only this: this scandal affected families.
It affected people in small branches up and down the
country. It affected the classic Post Office that we
see in the high streets and the villages and towns. It
affected a lot of people living in these premises, their
partners, their children, their education, their ability
to consider their children's needs, and we know that
there is a voice for children that needs to be expressed
57
all shapes and sizes — you wouldn't want to commit
further injustice by getting some of that wrong
You mentioned whether specifically Fujitsu could be
a part of the answer to that. I think that is
an interesting proposal. I wouldn't necessarily want to
limit the involvement of Fujitsu just to that element of
redress but the impact on wider family members is
something that is being looked at within Government,
yes.
MR STEIN: I said I'd finished and I really wil, but we
made that suggestion to Mr Patterson on the last
occasion when he gave evidence. It's not anew
proposal. So again, could that form part and parcel of
the wider discussions?
Frankly, there's a need to restore the families back
to what they hoped to be when they started their journey
through the Post Office. At the moment that doesn’t
seem to have been grasped. Thank you, Mr Reynolds.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
MR BLAKE: Sir, we have questions from Ms Shah as well
Questioned by MS SHAH
MS SHAH: There we go, can you hear me now; is that working
now?
A. Yes, I can, thank you.
@. Good moming, Mr Reynolds. I ask questions on behalf of
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properly before this Inquiry, which is that they're
damaged as well. They feel affected by what's happened.
They've been hurt. Their aspirations have been limited.
Questions about their education need to be addressed.
In other words, there is a need for a restorative
justice that considers the wider implications of this
scandal and what has happened
Now, we heard, I think, from Mr Recaldin that the
discussions have already taken place within Government
on this very issue. It is an issue that we, on behalf
of the client group we represent, we have suggested that
Fujitsu could contribute to but, actually, this might be
something to be grasped by both Government and Fujitsu
and really good work could be done here, and it needn't
cost that much. It'll cost a bit but it's about ideas,
and about making it possible for those families that
have had such great difficulties. What's happening in
that regard, Mr Reynolds?
That's absolutely right. So the issue of wider family
impact was very much on our minds when we came to
office. We have commissioned some preliminary work
around that, you'll understand a whole range of
questions as to the kind of harms you're looking at, the
kind of impact, making sure the definition of family
members is a modem one that understand families come in
58
the National Federation of SubPostmasters. So Mr Read
in his evidence to the Inquiry said that he thought the
culture at the Post Office had changed and improved
under his five-year tenure as CEO, although that does
not align with the key findings of Grant Thornton's
report of the Post Office. There's no need to turn it
up, but for the transcript that report is POL00448771.
That reported earlier this year and the key findings
on page 13 includes that there's an inability to unlock
unified purpose and shared ambition around a longer
term vision and strategy between POL and its
shareholder; there's an unconscious bias around the lack
of accountability; there's a lack of clear understanding
of objective roles, responsibilities and purpose; and
that, in relation to culture, there's a misalignment on
accountabilities between POL and DBT/UKGI, which is
culminating in a failing working relationship.
Would you agree that these findings show that there
continues to be significant issues in relation to
culture and governance at the Post Office?
Well, thank you for that question. I would say, having
been the Secretary of State for four months, I can't
‘comment on claims from, you know, the progress over the
last five years. But I would say that we start from the
position that things need to change extensively, as I've
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said in some of the previous answers, with regard to the
business model, the accountability, the governance
structure. I think the job at the Post Office that's
required is one of transformation, not accepting that
things are in a position now that is to anyone's
satisfaction and, broadly, I think that is something
which is held by people involved at every level of the
Post Office.
Just to pick up on something that Mr Stein has raised,
whilst the Grant Thornton review shows that there are
continuing issues with the culture of the Post Office,
five years after the GLO judgments, what confidence can
this Inquiry and the UK's postmasters have that, once
the scrutiny of the Inquiry is removed, that the Post
Office and Government will ensure that culture and
governance is improved? In other words, when the
spotlight of this Inquiry is turned off, is there not
a danger that things will just revert to business as
usual and this will remain a problem just too big, just
too hard and just too expensive for government to solve?
No, I think that is absolutely the right question and
when I talked about the nature of the job, as I see it
at the Government level, being not just sorting out the
routes to redress and the pace at which redress is
received, but they can't be divorced from those wider
61
not valuing or listening to postmaster input. Would you
agree that there may need to be a number of different
cultural change initiatives run by or implemented by
Post Office and Government, or your Department, in order
to restore the confidence of a group of people that have
been consistently failed?
Yes, I would agree with that statement entirely and
I would say that there absolutely has to be a position
where people delivering — post masters delivering
services on the frontline for the organisation feel that
the overall organisation itself is there to support
them, rather than to have what's clearly been
an adversarial relationship, one that has been lacking
in trust, one that has been lacking in respect, to be
frank, and that is at the heart of what we talked about
with Mr Blake. You know, some of the potential
governance changes have to be a part of that.
I think there's -- you know, the people I speak to,
who have been affected by this fairly widespread
recognition about the nature of a business model needing
to change to provide greater remuneration to people,
delivering services to postmasters themselves, and that
will necessitate some quite considerable changes to the
organisation centrally in order to do that. I think
there's an open-mindedness to different governance
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questions about the future of the Post Office, that is
what I mean by that. I think there is a danger, there
is a perception that we could simply, even if we do
a good job on redress, maybe not link it to the wider
future and questions of transformation, and that's
an absolutely reasonable question.
So the commitment we have as a Government is to deal
with these things together and hope there is some
assurance of that, making sure that is held to because
I know Government ministers change, they come and go and
different people take over these departments. I think
that is a job that will have to be held, not just by the
Government but by the Parliament, I think the Select
‘Committee in particular will play a role in ensuring
that but I think we should all acknowledge that that is
what success looks like here. It's not just about
resolving issues of redress and justice. It's about the
future of the Post Office, playing the role I believe it
can and should play in national life, but in a way which
recognises just how wrongs thing have gone in the past.
Okay, well, this Inquiry has shown the prolonged and
consistent history of Post Office with Government
oversight treating post masters as subservient and
unworthy, making choices that benefit Post Office as
a company and that are detrimental to postmasters, and
62
models as to the right way to do that, I don't think.
anyone needs to be prescriptive at this stage about it.
But you should always have oversight of what's your
objective in those changes, not governance changes for
the sake of it. It's about what would produce that much
stronger, healthier relationship going forward.
Thank you. We have heard from other witness to this
Inquiry that it might not be practical for Government
alone to play a more active role in the oversight of the
Post Office due to the nature of the arm's-length
relationship but would you agree that it could only be
a good thing for there to be an increased oversight and
transparency and that this would be key in detecting and
resolving any potential issues in the Post Office going
forward?
So I'd say this issue of how arm’s-length bodies and how
Government and UKGI functions is one that's got to be
central to the conversation and the answers that we're
having. Now I honestly cannot tell you, having been
a Secretary of State for no more than four months,
whether I am confident that the arrangements of the UK
state in this way will always work effectively or
whether this was just the wrong questions being asked of
the wrong people, you know, the wrong mechanism or
whether there's something more fundamental at stake in
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that.
I would say that I look at a whole range of things
that I have seen from the perspective of being a Member
of Parliament for over a decade and, obviously, this is
a significant one but I think about Hillsborough,
I think about Bloody Sunday, and I think about what
we've recently seen around Grenfell, and I think there
are some quite profound questions that we as a country
have to ask ourselves, that go beyond individual
mechanisms for oversight as to how we establish and run
these kinds of organisations
There are things that have been going, you know,
fundamentally wrong with how power is wielded in the UK,
how accountability is provided for. So I think, yes,
there are some specific questions around the future
governance structure and oversight, but I think there
are some wider changes we've got to think about as
a country, whether that is -- you know, there's been,
I know, as part of this Inquiry some conversation about
how we would address in future historic miscarriages of
justice and abuses of power and whether there's a sort
of different mechanism, standing mechanism we can have
to do that.
You'll know the Government has committed to
something called the Hillsborough Law, the duty of
65
He suggested that special measures are required,
because of the failings that the organisation have gone
through. Just for the transcript, that's pages 167 to
168 of that transcript.
Now, the NFSP has drafted a proposal for
an oversight committee, which it has discussed with
various key individuals within Post Office, Government
and others. Again, no need to tum it up but, for the
transcript, that is WITNO0370110. I'm not sure if
you've seen this proposal but it says that the aim is to
expand on the existing shareholder relationship
framework that currently exists between the Government
and Post Office, whilst retaining its social purpose, to
ensure a situation similar to the Horizon scandal is
never able to occur again, whilst securing the future of
the network. It says that lack of expertise, scrutiny
and accountability were key elements of how this scandal
continued for so many years. It is therefore the aim of
this proposal to bring together a committee of people
with specific Post Office knowledge, alongside those
from a wider social perspective to ensure that the
social purpose of the Post Office remains key.
Then at page 5 of the proposal, it outlines the
proposed membership of the committee, and that includes
postmaster representative bodies, such as the NFSP,
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candour. I think all of these things are connected to
each other and, whilst we've got to address the specific
problems of this Inquiry, there are some wider lessons
that we've got to consider because there have been too
many cases in modem British history of fundamental
abuses of power and that is just how it is. And we've
got to recognise that -- we've got to have the humility
to recognise lessons have to be leamt from all of these
things going forward.
Just to focus on the question of oversight, you might
have heard the evidence of Sir Alex Chisholm on
7 November. In his evidence he proposed an independent
oversight committee, with reporting obligations to the
Post Office Board, the authority to write to the
Secretary of State with concems, and obligations to
report periodically to Parliament. In support of that,
he states that, whilst this would add an extra layer,
the particular circumstances here, where the Post Office
Board has failed in its oversight responsibilities which
clearly lie with the Post Office Board and the
management executive being a part of that, their
internal legal teams over many years have failed to
provide effective service, then that has caused
a terrific breakdown of trust, not only with the
subpostmasters but with the wider public.
66
unions such as the CWU and Unite, representatives from
the Government, consumer champions, and representative
bodies for groups who rely upon the social purpose of
the Post Office, such as older people and people from
economically deprived areas, as well as a temporary role
for individuals who could offer advice on specific,
issues, pertinent to the agenda, among others.
So in light of this scandal, would you agree that it
could only be a good thing for stakeholders to work
together for the betterment of the Post Office in
an open and transparent forum such as the one proposed
here?
Look, I'll certainly look at that. It's clearly
a thoughtful proposal responding to what we have seen.
I would want to make sure that any governance change
was, first of all, one that was going to be effective.
I mean, on paper, the existing structure could have been
effective but clearly wasn't. I also wouldn't want
anything which is seen to sort of be outsourcing
responsibility for fixing these problems to a committee
of people or whatever. I think that might be perceived
as the opposite of what we're trying to do in terms of
facing up to and providing redress in relation to this
and providing a future which is one where we've got
confidence we've put these problems right.
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But the kind of thoughtful proposal you're putting
forward, I can see where that has come from and what
that would mean. So I promise we would absolutely
consider anything of this kind in this way it would also
have to be consistent of course with any future
governance or business model changes but I appreciate
the good faith nature of what you're putting forward and
it's something we'll look at.
So would you be willing to make a commitment, then, to
discuss this proposal with NFSP and others to explore
this option and give the public and postmasters
confidence in the future, because you'd agree it's
important to help and ensure that the Post Office meets
its social purpose as a Government-owned company, rather
than acting as a company with only profit as its goal?
I would be absolutely willing to meet with anyone to
discuss the future of the organisation. I would as well
that, whilst I can see the very good spirit and good
faith nature of that proposal, fundamentally that —
I think, if postmasters felt that was something that
they still didn't have the power, they still didn't have
a structure that gave them authority, and they would
just be, you know ~ the perception of that being
a talking shop for grievances or not getting to the
source of what had gone wrong here
69
Questioned by MS PATRICK
MS PATRICK: Good morning, Minister.
A
Qa
Hi
Good morning my name is Angela Patrick. I act for
a number of subpostmasters who were wrongfully convicted
and have since had their convictions quashed. I'm
instructed by Hudgells Solicitors. I only have two
topics to cover with you.
The first is a question about mechanics, almost. In
Phase 2, we heard evidence about handover from one
administration to another, and back again, and one topic
that came up was the issue of a new administration not
being able to access the papers of the previous
administration. I just want to ask you, Minister, has
that practice changed?
Yeah, absolutely, really interesting question. So bear
in mind, this is all still relatively new for the new
ministers. That is my understanding, that we can't
access papers and decisions from previous
administrations. It comes up in a number of occasions,
to be honest, particularly, actually, around the
Department consideration of things like the trade talks,
and so forth. We have to refresh all of that as a new
Government. I would say specifically, in relation to
the Post Office, I've never felt that there's, you know,
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I'd be cautious about that but, again, I can see,
you know, the positive nature of that proposal and where
it's come from and it's obviously worthy of further
discussion.
MS SHAH: Okay, thank you very much.
MR BLAKE: Thank you, sir. There are a small number of
questions from Ms Patrick. If I'm not going to get in
trouble with the stenographer, can I propose that we
take those ~
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: No, I'm sorry. It's over an hour and
a half now and I think small numbers of questions seem
to become longer, not shorter, this morning. So I think
we need to take a break.
MRBLAKE: Okay, sir. That's absolutely fine. After that
break, we'll need to take at least a 15-minute break
before Ms Badenoch attends.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Fine. So what time shall we resume?
MR BLAKE: Perhaps if we take a short break now, say five
minutes?
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Well, let's make it 11.45.
MR BLAKE: Thank you very much.
(11.37 am)
(A short break)
(11.45 am)
MRBLAKE: Thank you, sir. Ms Patrick.
70
something I needed that I haven't had access to. Some
of the broad policy decisions, for instance, you're
saying the appeal scheme for HSS, had already sort of
been -- they were in the public domain through the
Advisory Board's recommendation, so it wasn't like there
was something I felt we didn’t know where it had come
from or where it had originated, or a piece of
information, and I think as far - or certainly from my
point of view, I would say had a fairly good
relationship with particularly Kevin Hollinrake, who had
been the Postal Affairs Minister before the election
and, frankly, the ability to talk or raise issues
between us quite readily.
So that is my understanding of our constitution but
I don't feel or haven't felt that it’s been a barrier
for me in this case.
Q._In practical terms, just to think about what that might
mean, thinking about one or two of the topics that are
still very much live, the Strategic Review and NBIT, if
there had been, for example, some work done under the
previous administration, a report produced or piece of
research or a piece of thinking, that was set down on
paper and in a drawer somewhere in the Department, that
couldn't be fished out and given to you as a minister
but civil servants would have access to it; is that
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a reflection of the rule?
‘A. I believe what you're saying is right and I just want to
say that I don't consider myself an expert on this.
having just been through it recently through it fairly
recently. I also don't quite know the situation in
relation to an arm's-length body that is sponsored by
the Department that would essentially be doing its own
work and then referring that back to the Department for
oversight or for decision making. But again, I would
say I don't feel that there's sort of anything that I am
aware of that has happened or would be beneficial to
know about that I haven't had access to, and when I have
said in exchanges in Parliament, either in responses to
questions from the oral statement or in departmental
questions, some of the things I've shared with you this
morning about the direction of travel I want to see the
Post Office in, I've felt there's broadly a degree of
consensus between the benches on that future direction,
though I haven't had a sort of specific conversation
with the former government about what they were thinking
in terms of the future of the Post Office.
Q. Thank you, Minister. The second topic I want to talk
about is Mr Stein raised the issue of families and
compensation.
Now, are you aware of an organisation called Lost
73
particular and appropriate interest.
MS PATRICK: Thank you. We have no further questions.
Questioned by SIR WYN WILLIAMS
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Mr Reynolds, before you finish, can
I just ask you this: I have heard evidence from some
witnesses which suggest that, in effect, the Post Office
cannot be rescued. Those are my words, not their words,
but that's what it amounts to at the extreme end, all
right?
You have expressed quite firmly to me this morning,
at the beginning of your evidence, that despite all the
things that have happened, the Post Office should be
preserved. So what I'd like, if it's possible for you
to do, is to just give me the two, three, four, whatever
they are, bullet points which lead, I take it, your
Government and you personally to think that it's worth
preserving the Post Office?
A. Sir Wyn, that's an incredibly thoughtful question
I would say, despite the scale of what went wrong here,
and it was very, very large indeed ~ I mean, people if
they recognise me as a Cabinet Minister in the street,
this will be one of the things that they bring up, you
know, that's on their minds: wanting to know what the
progress is, what the pace of redress is, and so forth.
Despite that registering with the public in this way,
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Chances?
I don't think I am aware of that, no, sorry.
So there is an organisation called Lost Chances for
Subpostmaster Children who represent the children of
subpostmasters who have suffered as a result of the
scandal. Were you aware that they had met with Paul
Patterson of Fujitsu, on 9 August this year?
No, I'm not aware of that meeting, sorry.
ince that date, Hudgells Solicitors have been chasing
for Lost Chances, chasing Fujitsu for follow-up on that
action. Have you had any conversation or contact with
Fujitsu since that date in early August to discuss
precisely that issue?
No, I haven't had that but I'm pleased, first of all,
that that conversation has happened, though I'm
frustrated to hear that it obviously hasn't resulted in
the follow-up that people would have wanted from that.
And I'd be very happy to be, as a Government, as
a Department, a sort of party to those conversations, if
that is deemed to be helpful, going forward into the
future, and I think, similar to the exchange we had
earlier about possible options for redress in future,
this is obviously an element of those, though I wouldn't
necessarily limit the conversations with Fujitsu just to
that, But I can see why this would be an area of
74
I do genuinely feel the public still want a Post Office.
They still want the service it provides. When I go
into, you know, the post offices in my local community,
they're actually always pretty busy. I think, as I say,
the regret is that I don't think postmasters are earning
appropriate remuneration from that level of business
taking place and, frankly, when it comes to new
initiatives like Banking Hubs, I think the Post Office
has been -- and in every case actually -- has been the
natural partner picked to run that in a local community.
I think there is, Sir Wyn, fundamentally, a need for
something, whatever you call it, whatever the future is,
that is the Post Office on the high street, providing
the kind of services that it currently does, and
potentially some new things in the future. I think the
big public policy questions like the future of cash in
our society, and the closure of high street banking in
many communities, I think the Post Office is part of the
answer to those other wider public policy concems, and
do foresee, potentially, in future, services that
aren't currently delivered by the Post Office, either
Post Office being a potential vehicle for delivering
them, in that way.
But I think the future is definitely one that has,
to be frank, a significantly smaller centre and, you
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know, is based much more around power authority and
governance being provided to postmasters on the
frontline, really a central organisation serving those
people. Ina way, I don't think that's been the
relationship leading into this scandal in particular.
I would also say, to be frank, even when there
are ~- I've had circumstances in my constituency, Sir
Wyn, where someone success providing postal services
wishes to move on, retire, whatever, and you ask for ~
is there another business in the local community willing
to provide these things? If that can't be found, there
is still genuine regret amongst the public at the loss
of those services. So I feel both the public demand and
policy rationale is still there and that underpins these
conversations and work that we're doing and what the
future might look like.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Thank you very much, Mr Reynolds. I'm
very grateful to you for taking the time to come to give
evidence at the Inquiry. AllI need do is to thank you
for doing that.
THE WITNESS: Thank you for the opportunity to be here,
Sir Wyn.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Right, Mr Blake. A 15-minute break, yes?
MR BLAKE: Well, we'll need 15 minutes in which everybody
clears the room, I'm afraid.
77
A. Yes, they are.
Q. Thank you very much. If you turn on a tab to your
second witness statement, which is dated 7 October 2024,
that's 14 pages in length, excluding the appendix.
I think there's one correction to make, paragraph 2 on
page 1
That's right.
Second line. Should the date be 26 September 2024?
Yes, that's correct. That's the correction required.
Thank you very much. Is that your signature on page 14?
Yes, that is another electronic signature but this is
PePrPOP
mine.
Q. Is that witness statement, with that correction brought
into account, true to the best of your knowedge and
belief?
A. Yes, itis
Q. Thank you very much. By way of background, I think it's
right that, before coming to Parliament in 2017, you
worked firstly as a software engineer in the CGI group;
is that right?
A. For a company called Logica CMG, which then became the
CGI Group.
Q. Which is, I think, a Canadian IT consulting firm; is
that right?
‘A. Not when I was there but, yes, I believe that is what it
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SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Right, okay.
MR BLAKE: Thank you very much. Thank you.
(11.59 am)
(A short break)
(12.14 pm)
MR BEER: Good afternoon, sir. Can you see and hear us?
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes, thank you very much,
MRBEER: May I call Kemi Badenoch, please.
KEM! BADENOCH MP (sworn)
Questioned by MR BEER
MR BEER: Good afternoon, Ms Badenoch. My name is Jason
Beer and I ask questions on behalf of the Inquiry. Can
you give your full name, please?
‘A. Myfull name is Kemi Badenoch.
Q. Thank you. You've provided kindly two witness
statements to the Inquiry. The first of them is dated
26 September 2024. Could you please open it? I think
it's tab A2 in your bundle there. For the transcript,
the URN is WITN11480100. I think it's nine pages in
length, excluding the appendix. Is that your signature
on page 9?
A. Yes, that is an electronic signature but, yes, I did
sign electronically.
Q. Thank you very much. Are the contents of that statement
true to the best of your knowledge and belief?
78
is now.
Q_ You then worked as a systems analyst I think at RBS ~
>
Yes
Q. —is that right? The retail and commercial bank. Then
I think you moved to be an Associate Director at Coutts,
the private bank and wealth management firm; is that
right?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. Then, finally, before Parliament, you worked as the
Digital Director at The Spectator magazine; is that
right?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Thank you. You became an MP, the member for Saffron
Waldon, as that constituency was then described, in
2017, and I think you remained on the backbenches until
July 2019; is that right?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q._In July 2019 you took up the position of Parliamentary
Under-Secretary of State for Education?
A. Yes.
Q. Then from February 2020, until 15 September 2021 you
were the Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. That was when Mr Johnson was Prime Minister and Mr Sunak
was Chancellor.
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Yes, that's right.
From 16 September 2021 until 6 September 2022, I think
you were a Minister of State at the Department for
Levelling Up, Housing and Communities?
Yes.
You were the Secretary of State for Intemational Trade
and, indeed, the President of the Board of Trade between
6 September 2022 and 7 February 2023?
Yes, I was.
Then most relevantly for us, from 7 February 2023 until
5 July 2024, you were Secretary of State for Business
and Trade?
That is correct, yes.
So it's that 17-month period, February ‘23 until July
"24 that we're most interested in, you understand?
Yes, thank you.
Then I ought to record in the evidence that after 5 July
2024 you've been a member of His Majesty's Opposition,
more recently Leader of the Conservative Party and
therefore Leader of the Opposition?
That's right.
Can I tum right back to the beginning, then, of the
relevant period, February 2023. I think you tell us in
your witness statement that you received an introductory
briefing concerning the Post Office on 21 February 2023;
81
Scheme, all of the things you were told about in that
briefing of February 2023, they were essentially news to
you; is that right?
In the sense that the detail of what they were was
provided. I am sure that, as of that time, I would have
heard about schemes and references to them but, in terms
of the detail, that was news to me. I was fully
engrossed in my other ministerial roles. In fact, the
only thing that's missing from the —
Minister for Equalities --
Yes, I was Minister for Equalities from 2019 right up
until July 2024, so I also had another ministerial job,
so most of what I was doing was focused on my
ministerial role and my work as a constituency MP.
Understood. Can we look at the briefing, please. It
will come up on the screen. BEIS0001061. You'll see
this is headed "Post Office introductory brief for the
Secretary of State". You'll see it's dated February
2022. I think that must be a typo because this was
February 2023.
It could have been a typo but it may also have been
a lightly updated version of the standard briefing which
they would provide to Secretaries of State.
So still a typo because the date to have been updated as
well?
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is that right?
Yes.
So that was about two weeks into your time as Secretary
of State?
Yes.
What was your state of understanding about the issues
concerning the Post Office and, in particular, the
Horizon scandal, before you took up your role as
Secretary of State in February 2023?
No more than a lay MP. So! was aware that there had
been an issue with the Horizon system and I was also
vaguely aware about the outcome of the court case, which
was that an injustice had occurred and a lot of
postmasters required redress. But the full detail of
what had gone wrong with Horizon and what the
postmasters had endured I was not familiar with.
So the previous ministerial and similar appointments you
had held hadn't brought you into contact with the Post
Office or the scandal in any substantial way?
Not that that I recall, no.
So the Common Issues Judgment, the Horizon Issues
Judgment, the settlement of the Group Litigation, the
overturning of convictions by the Court of Appeal in
April 2021, the Overturned Convictions Scheme, the
Horizon Shortfall Scheme, and the GLO Compensation
82
Yes, that's right, yes.
Can we please look at page 2. If we just pan out
a little bit, please, an overview is given of the Post
Office. You'll see, for example, on the last bullet
point, it gives some dates or a date of January 2023.
So it is updated, perhaps even lightly. These kind of
facts and figures, these would have been new to you?
Yes, definitely.
If we go over, please, to page 3. There's a diagram
setting out the Government's relationship with Post
Office Limited. It records in the rubric that the
Secretary of State became the sole shareholder in the
Post Office Limited in 2012, by virtue of the Postal
Services Act 2011.
Mm.
Then you'll see the boxes set out, two boxes on the
lef, two in the middle and then two on the right. On
the left-hand side, two boxes, one within the other, one
referring to you, the Secretary of State, and one
referring to the Minister, Mr Hollinrake.
Mm.
Did that position, as is set out in those boxes, reflect
the state of affairs on 21 February 2023, ie the date of
the briefing?
Yes, because if I can describe the nature of the
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1 Machinery of Government Change, Kevin Hollinrake had
2 already been in the Department for Business before it
3 was joined up with Trade, so he was already carrying out
4 that work. So, effectively, the delegation existed even
5 before he had come to the Department, but what the main
6 change was that I was becoming the Secretary of State
7 for Business as well as Trade, and I was taking on the
8 sole shareholder responsibilities.
9 Q Isee. Soas at the date of this meeting, 21 February
10 2023, five functions were retained by you, the five
ca bullet points under "Sole Shareholder’, namely Board
12 appointments, remuneration, Post Office's strategic
13 plan, the funding envelope and the size of the network?
14, A Mm.
15 Q. But delegated to Mr Hollinrake ministerial oversight and
16 the Parliamentary spokesman?
17 A. Yes, but I'm not sure that fully describes how it would
18 have worked. The five items which are listed as my
19 responsibilities, Kevin would have also been working on
20 them as well. So the delegation works in the sense that
a both ministers are aware of everything that's happening.
22 He tends to ~ the junior minister looks at the detail,
23 and I serve as an escalation point, usually given
24 updates and decision-making capacity after he has
25 provided advice to me, based on what he thinks should
85
1 bullet points in the first box and two bullet points in
2 the second box?
3A. I think it would be more accurately described as a way
4 of working. So a more comprehensive restating of what
5 sort of delegation I wanted to see. It was effectively
6 the same sort of relationship that you would have had in
7 any other ministerial Department, where the Junior
8 Ministers look after the detail. But this conversation,
9 if I recall correctly, it was just me restating my ways
10 of working to David Bickerton, and looking at just the
ca sheer scale of what needed to be done, ensuring that we
12 weren't dropping the ball on anything because, as of
13 this point, I was still carrying out all of my duties as
14 Trade Secretary.
15 So I was effectively taking on the work of two
16 departments and I was quite concerned about how much
17 needed to be done on the Post Office and I wanted to
18 make it clear that Kevin had authority and they
19 shouldn't wait for everything to come to the Secretary
20 of State. That's one of the things that does tend to
a happen, where, even when a junior minister has opined on
22 things, people wait for the Secretary of State and that
23 ends up slowing things down. So it was a restating of
24 how I saw of the delegation working.
25 Q. This paragraph here refers to the delegation of Post
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happen. That was the main nature of the role,
delegation and responsibilities.
In your witness statement, let's look at it, please,
it's the second witness statement, it will come up on
the screen. So WITN11480200, page 3, paragraph 10. You
say:
"Two days later (on 23 February [so after the
meeting we've just looked at] 2023) I had another
meeting with David Bickerton at which it was suggested
that Post Office business should be delegated to the
Minister, Kevin Hollinrake. It was entirely normal as
Secretary of State to delegate aspects of my large
portfolio to ministers ..."
Then you referenced a list of your ministerial
responsibilities, which was indeed large:
".. it'seemed entirely sensible to delegate Post
Office issues to Kevin Hollinrake, given his interest in
and grip of the issues and the fact that he was already
doing this work as Minister within BEIS, prior to the
creation of DBT and my arrival as Secretary of State",
which you've just essentially said.
Mm.
Do we take it correctly from that that there was
essentially a further delegation beyond that which was
described in the two boxes, which overlapped with five
86
Office business or the delegation of Post Office
issues ~
Mm.
~ to Kevin Hollinrake, in the second and about the
sixth line/seventh line. Was that delineated in any
way, ie which things you were formally delegating to
him?
I don't believe so because I was still the official
decision maker. So delegating from my perspective,
apart from the Parliamentary work carrying out oral
statements, and so on, was the day-to-day work on the
Post Office: meeting people, so the meetings, going to
the Board meetings, for example, talking to the staff
within the Department for Business and Trade. So the
day-to-day ministerial work of the Post Office was for
him to look after and then the decision points would
come to me.
So you retained formal responsibility for decision
making, that wasn't delegated, but day-to-day business
was?
I would -- well, yes, that is correct. So I retained
formal responsibility for decision making, but I also
allowed him to make decisions and then let me know what
he had wanted to do, and I would decide whether I needed
to take a different option, which rarely happened. But
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all — I believe that all ministers should have the
capacity to take decisions without constantly being
micromanaged by the Secretary of State.
So when decisions would come to me, it would often
because there might have been a difference between what
Kevin wanted to do and official advice, and I would need
to decide which way to go, or if he just wanted me to be
aware of conversations that had occurred before he ended
up making a particular decision.
Thank you. Can we go back to the diagram, please, which
was BEIS0001061, and look back again at page 3, please.
Do you see, after the Hollinrake box, I'm going to call
it, there is a line up to Post Office Policy Team and
a line down to UKGI Shareholder Representative?
Mm. Yes, I do.
Within the Post Office Policy Team box, the first bullet
point is setting overall policy direction for Post
Office. Did the DBT Post Office Policy Team have the
responsibility for setting the overall policy direction
for Post Office?
Well, it depends on what you mean by policy versus what
the officials mean when they've put that on the slide.
Can you elaborate exactly: when you say “policy”, how do
you mean?
I can only go on the words on the page, Ms Badenoch,
89
about 30 other arm's-length management organisations
which we're looking at.
However, the policy teams do have the time to carry
out that bit of work. And, remember, policy teams also
carry out the research which advises ministers on what
the options are and then we decide which direction to
take. So I suspect this bullet point is trying to
explain to me what the Policy Team does, rather than
trying to define to outside observers how the Post
Office is being managed.
In the answer before last that you gave, you said that
the Policy Team was ~ and I'm summarising here -- more
responsible for taking the decisions made by the
politicians and passing them on, or carrying them into
effect.
Yes.
You'll see that there isn't arrow coming out of the Post
Office Policy Team box. This isn't just me picking
apart a diagram, I'm trying to actual understand, on
behalf of the Inquiry, what role the Policy Team had in
setting the policy direction for the Post Office. ifit
was responsible for carrying into effect the will of
ministers, how did it do that?
Well, this was one of the things which UKGI, for
example, was doing. As the shareholders —
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which suggest that the Post Office Policy Team had
responsibility for setting the overall policy direction
for Post Office.
So I don't think that that is what they are referring
to. Ministers decide ~ ministers decide policy but the
Post Office policy was decided long before Kevin and
Thad become ministers. I suspect what they were trying
to say there was ensuring that they passed on what we
were talking about in terms of policy direction on to
the Post Office. But, in terms of setting overall
policy direction, that would happen at ministerial
level
So that's one issue, responsibility for setting, and you
say that that rested with the politicians rather than
the civil servants?
Well, yes. I mean, the funding comes from the
politicians. The nature of what the Post Office should
or shouldn't be doing comes from politicians. But this
is one of the things that's quite interesting about the
Post Office itself as an entity. It's one of those
organisations that's neither fish nor fowl. It's not
fully public service, it's also commercial, as the
solicitor shareholder, as ministers, we can't get
involved in commercial decisions. We don't often have
the detail and the expertise. This was just one of
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Sorry to speak over you, I can understand that, but
that’s not what this diagram shows, is it? Here, the
narrow goes down to UKGI, and it suggests under the
first bullet point that its responsibility was to
challenge the Post Office's strategy, rather than
setting it
Mm. So I think that this diagram needs to be looked at
in context. It is not a definitive diagram of exactly
how everything works. It is really a short briefing
document, so that we can see how all of the teams are
interacting and give a high-level overview of what it is
they do. This PowerPoint is not a bible for exactly how
things should work. We as ministers will have multiple
teachings, which teams are rushing through in half-hour,
‘one-hour meetings, how an organisation is put together
and how it all -- and how it all works
But the real learning goes on over a longer period
of time, not the half hour meeting. So I wouldn't read
too much into this diagram as the definitive sort of
explanation of how things worked. You know, even as
I described the delegation, this is simply what they're
showing me on day one, “This is officially what you do,
here's our team, this what we do”, and so on and so
forth,
I would not use this diagram as a full description
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of how every single thing happened. It's a useful
illustration.
You said that in fact UKGI had responsibility for
carrying into effect the politicians’ decisions as to
Post Office's strategy?
No, that's not quite what I said. I said UKGI also
carried out that sort of representation of what
ministers wanted, as a shareholder's representative but
they were not a Policy Team
Who did have responsibility for carrying into effect
minister's decision as to the policy direction of Post
Office?
Well, it depends specifically on the issue. We have
a team that has a director, there's a Director General
who covers the Post Office, as well as many other
departments’ business areas, as well as arm's-length
bodies ~ British Business Bank being a classic
example — and there will be quite a few people within
the Policy Team who have an interaction with the Post
Office, sometimes at Board level, but it's split amongst
various individuals.
As between the Post Office Policy Team and UKGI, who had
principal responsibility for carrying into effect
ministers’ policy directions for Post Office?
Well, again, it depends on what specifically it is we
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Thank you. That can come down. Can I turn to my second
topic, which is compensation and redress
You tell us in your second witness statement, let's
tum it up, it's page 11, paragraph 39, you say:
“Right from my first briefing, I was concerned with
the pace at which the compensation was being delivered.
Kevin Hollinrake also told me that we should be going
faster, and he needed some help from his Secretary of
State to accelerate things. We had briefings on the
issue with officials, and it was quite clear to me that
we were allowing bureaucracy to get in the way of
redress too much of the time. Kevin and I wanted to get
the money out there, and we were always given a reason
why we couldn't. For example, officials suggested we
wait until the end of the Inquiry so we knew precisely
what to do. I was adamant that we could not wait that
long and we had to get the money out. I was
particularly concerned that postmasters would die
waiting for compensation. I remember saying in one
meeting that I don't want any of that happening on my
watch, and that we wanted to get the redress out to
people before it is too late. I wanted to know what we
could do to get the payments out the door, and said we
needed to do whatever we could to make it happen."
Can I ask, firstly, as Exchequer Secretary for
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are talking about. So --
I'm essentially asking, did the Government use, its
representative on the Board as the primary means by
which it sought to influence the policy direction for
the Post Office?
Well, quite often, the policy teams would also speak to
the UKGI shareholder representative. So most of this
day-to-day interaction was carried out by Minister
Hollinrake, and I know that he was meeting our UKGI rep
Lorna, as well as our policy teams. So I saw them as
being more integrated than perhaps the diagram would
show, and I think that's a natural expectation for the
size of the organisation but, in terms of setting
policy, there were really just two things we were doing
‘one was trying to make sure that the Post Office did not
fall over, looking to the future, you know, the Board
representation, the future of the Post Office, and so
‘on, and managing the issues that had come out of
Horizon.
And beyond that, there was very little new policy
being created. So when we talk about policy, we're
really talking about the day-to-day management of policy
that has been set over a longer period of time, and this
was something that worked together really well broadly
as a team with Kevin leading.
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18 months from February 2020 until September 2021, were
you aware of any blockers in the Treasury to the payment
of full and fair compensation?
No.
Was that something that crossed your desk, the payment
of compensation and the provision of redress arising
from the Horizon scandal when you were Exchequer
Secretary?
It may have done but I don't recall, I don't recall
looking at that. I'm not sure that that sort of thing
would have been the Exchequer Secretary's remit, so I'd
be surprised if it did. The Exchequer Secretary didn't
look at spending. It looked ~ the Exchequer
Secretary's role is around economic growth and where
money is coming from, rather than where money needs to
go to, So I would be surprised if that crossed my desk.
So that would be more responsibilty for the Chief
Secretary to the Treasury?
Very likely, yes.
Thank you. At this time, once you became Secretary of
State, why were you concemed with "the pace at which
the compensation was being delivered"?
Well, because after the briefing, and maybe during the
briefing as well, Kevin had told me how he had been
looking at this issue from the time when he was
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a backbench MP, and I was aware of the injustice, you
know, just from reading newspapers rather than any
Parliamentary briefing, and I had seen this sort of
thing happen before, where justice delayed is
effectively justice denied, and I am more interested in
making sure that we get things done, rather than every
single box is ticked
eel that there is often too much bureaucracy in
the way of getting things done because people are
worried about process, they are worried about, if things
go wrong, them being on the hook for that, and so they
carry out lots of checks and balances, well beyond what
I think is required in order to deliver the right
outcome.
You say something along those lines in this paragraph
here, the sentence about five lines in:
“... we were allowing bureaucracy to get in the way
of redress too much of the time.”
Who was allowing bureaucracy to get in the way of
redress too much of the time?
Well, the Government machine. So I think I remember
asking a question like, "Why can't we just give them the
money now, if we know this" ~ I can't remember
specifically what we were talking about, but I just like
to ask the simple questions, why can't we just do this?
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I think we know from other evidence that the letter that
issued was dated 9 August 2023.
Okay.
The cross-heading is "Accelerating Post Office Horizon
compensation" and, broadly, Ms Badenoch, was this letter
in pursuance of your strategy to try and get
compensation paid quickly?
Yes, it was and, bearing in mind that this is now
five/six months after the initial briefing, this letter
is an expression of my frustration that things are still
not happening. And when I ask officials shortly before
I send this out, "What do we need to do?", they tell me
that I need to write to the Chancellor, there's no other
way of getting what I want in terms of delivering the
compensation swiftly.
So that's the reason why the letter is being written
at this point.
You say:
“Kevin Hollinrake and I are both determined that
postmasters affected by the Post Office Horizon scandal
should get proper compensation — and that they should
get it as rapidly as possible.”
You then describe in the second paragraph the three
sets of compensation schemes or arrangements that were
then afoot. In the third paragraph, you say:
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‘And then I'd be told, "Well, there could be judicial
review and the Treasury has these value for money
requirements and, if we don't meet them, then we might
end up having to go to court". So I just kept trying to
find a way through, how do we -- you know, I put myself
in the shoes of the subpostmasters, that if I was this
person or if I was a member of their family, what would
I want?
And in my view, what they would want is for the
matter to be dealt with as quickly as possible and to be
able to move on with their lives and, when I would have
conversations with officials, I would be told, "Well,
there's still an inquiry going on and if you make
a decision like this without going through all the
checks and balances or without waiting for the Inquiry
to conclude, then you might have a problem later’
But I thought that it was better to err on the side
of ensuring the people got their compensation quickly,
rather than making sure that we didn't get into any
trouble for not doing it in the perfect way.
Thank you. I think in August 2023 you wrote a letter to
the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, Jeremy Hunt MP?
Yes.
Can we look at that, please. BEIS0000808. You will see
it's not fully dated, it's dated "XX August 2023", but
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“This scandal ruined many postmasters' lives. The
longer compensation goes unpaid, the more criticism we
shall face -- including from the Williams Inquiry. If
we were to fail to compensate all the GLO members in
time we would face severe criticism from all sides."
Mm.
“Kevin and I have therefore been looking at ways in
which we could radically speed up the processes. We
have already made interim payments of £163k to almost
all postmasters whose convictions are overturned, and we
undertake only limited scrutiny of GLO claims for
certain hearing loss under £10k and HSS ones under £8k.
We are looking to extend these measures substantially in
relation to the GLO, which has started to receive
claims.
"Some of the options we are considering would
actually save money on the cost of lawyers or other
advisers than they would cost in extra compensation.
Others do have additional costs — but in my view these
would be well worthwhile in light of the non-financial
benefits of accelerating the schemes. In particular,
I would like us to be able to offer a £100k fixed
payment to every claimant who applies to the GLO scheme.
I recognise that announcing this will create significant
pressure to offer the same for HSS claimants, which we
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should consider separately, but I believe that is the
right route forward for the GLO scheme. Such radical
action would offer great advantages in terms of the
speed of the process. The DBT Accounting Officer has
expressed some concerns about the value for money given
the repercussive risk and raised the potential need for
a direction for this idea. I would welcome your views
on the best approach, being mindful of value for money
considerations, and whether you agree that we should
pursue this."
Then there's a passage I needn't read
So it appears from this letter that, by this time,
you and Mr Hollinrake were fully engaged into the need
for urgent compensation to be paid to GLO members?
Yes.
This is essentially a joint letter, is that right, from
you and Mr Hollinrake?
Well, it's my letter but we both agreed that this was
the best way forward. He had come to me on one or two
occasions saying that he was having trouble getting
through to the Treasury and also separately getting
officials to agree. So the reference to the DBT
Accounting Officer is our Permanent Secretary, and he
asked for my help, and I said I will go to the
Chancellor myself and ask for this money and try and cut
101
personal objective of making sure that we did right by
the postmasters and we showed that we were delivering on
the scheme as promised after the court case and that we
were just being seen to do the right thing.
Being seen to do the right thing, in my view, is
just as important as doing the right things. Making
explanations and excuses for why things take so long
shouldn't go on beyond a few weeks or months, and that
was my attempt to short-circuit the process and create
options. So this was not a solution that we had got
advice from; it was something that Kevin himself had
recommended and said, “Why don't we try this and see how
far we get?”
Presumably doing the right thing is actually more
important than being seen to do the right thing?
Both of them are important. Doing the right thing when
no one knows that you're doing it often creates
different problems elsewhere. So as a politician, it is
not enough to be doing the right thing; it is important
to be seen to be doing the right thing. Perception
matters too, otherwise you lose trust.
In paragraph 47 of your witness statement, you say:
“Kevin and I agreed that we should prioritise money
out of the door, even if this risked paying more than
was due."
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through the bureaucracy
So this is an escalation from him to you, essentially --
Yes, and this was my response to the escalation.
~ and a similar escalation in the sense that you're
writing directly to the Chancellor of the Exchequer?
That's right.
Do you think you should have assumed this level of
‘engagement immediately after your appointment in
February 2023, or shortly thereafter?
No, I would not have known enough to have carried out
this level of escalation. This is coming after multiple
attempts, which I can't recall the full detail of, of
trying to get compensation out, move quickly. So this
letter is happening after a period of frustration that
things still aren't happening, and I also remember
a conversation, where I was, you know, advised to wait
until the Inquiry. This is the point I was referencing
in the witness statement, and I am not one of life's
natural bureaucrats. My view is that we just need to
get things done because, if you don't, more problems
will arise.
And what I was seeing, as I observed the way the
Department and the Post Office were carrying on, was
that we would just never get to the end of it, and
I wanted to start seeing things happening. I had my own
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Is that the approach that you were advocating: that
speed should triumph accuracy?
Yes.
Can we look at the Chancellor's reply the same month,
BEIS0000705. You'll see his reply. If we look at the
second page and scroll down, you'll see it's a letter
from Mr Hunt. Go back to the first page, please. It's
dated August 2023. He says, in reply to you:
“Thank you for your letter of 9 August ..."
That's one of the pieces of evidence that we can
establish that your letter was dated 9 August from:
"... regarding the acceleration of Post Office
Horizon Compensation.
"Lam wholly committed to ensuring the postmasters
achieve the full and fair compensation that they rightly
deserve."
Then moving on to paragraph 5, where he addresses
the substance of your request:
“In relation to the specific proposal for fixed-sum
awards on the GLO scheme, while successful delivery is
paramount, we must also have regard to our
responsibility for the public finances and to ensuring
that the treatment of claimants on each Horizon
compensation scheme is fair to that of their peers."
Then paragraph 6:
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“As you note, making fixed-sum awards on the GLO
would incur significant repercussive risk and cost,
including to the [HSS]. Given the extent of this risk
and its high likelihood of crystallisation, I would
encourage you to explore the full breadth of other
options to advance the ultimate objective of timely and
successful delivery of full and fair compensation.”
Then, over the page, he says he’s grateful to you
and Mr Hollinrake.
So paragraph 6 was essentially a rejection of the
proposal by the Chancellor?
Yes.
You tell us in your witness statement, it's at
paragraph 44, this is your second witness statement, if
we tum that up. It’s page 13. Having cited the letter
that I read from you to the Chancellor, you say:
“Despite some initial resistance from the Treasury
Then you crossrefer to the letter we've just read,
Mr Hunt's reply.
Mm yes.
*... Lwas prepared to issue a Ministerial Direction to
get this over the line.”
You describe this as “initial resistance". Wasn't
it just a refusal?
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You'll see that this is the first email in the chain
It's the originating email. Your Private Secretary says
that she had:
"... a meeting this morning with [you], which
touched on [amongst other things]: (1) Horizon ~ in
particular the ongoing work to speed up compensation for
the GLO postmasters ... The Secretary of State was
particularly concerned about the pace at which
compensation schemes are being delivered and is keen to
ensure we're doing all we can to speed things up.
“Conscious that Minister Hollinrake and {the
Permanent Secretary] have very much been gripping this,
so my sense is we need a couple of paragraphs to bring
[the Secretary of State] up to speed on the following
If we just look to the first bullet point but the
sub-bullet point:
“itis worth noting that [the Secretary of State] is
supportive of the £100k flat offer to GLO postmasters
and is content to provide a Ministerial Direction to see
this get over the line. As such, it would be good if
the update focuses on how we can deliver this proposal.”
I think that's the crossreference you make in your
witness statement to a willingness to provide
a ministerial direction to get it over the line ~
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Well, the witness statement is written at a point when
we did get some money over the line, so that's what I'm
referring to.
Ise. So, in the context of the payment of
‘compensation as a whole -
Yes.
~ this rejection is to be seen as “initial resistance"?
Yes.
Got it. You say you were prepared to issue
a ministerial direction to get it over the line.
Can we look, please, at the reference to
a ministerial direction. BEIS0000716. It's page 23.
You'll see here an email of 21 August 2021, if we scroll
down, and a bit more, just to see the signature block.
I think Rose was one of your Private Secretaries —
That's right.
~ or in fact the Private Secretary; is that right? If
you scroll up, please —
Do you have the reference in the pack for the hard copy
that I could look at?
Yes, B28.
Thank you.
It would be in the page in the bottom right-hand corner,
23
Thank you.
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Yes.
~ is that right? Can you explain the circumstances in
which a ministerial direction may be given?
I think this is best seen in the context of the question
you asked me earlier, about speed versus accuracy. So
in Government we have to make sure we're delivering
value for money for the taxpayer and there are some
times when an amount that's being paid is not really
value for money, but there are other considerations,
which a minister might think make that worthwhile. In
this case, the ministerial direction, which I had
wanted, was to overrule the value for money, because
I was looking at a scenario where, if you're
a subpostmaster, would you rather have compensation that
might be £10,000 more or £10,000 less than what you
would have done, versus passing away and your family not
getting the money or you not getting the money?
And, in my view, the worst risk was someone not
getting money at all, rather than them not getting the
exact amount of money right down to the penny.
That does not meet value for money considerations
because the Government will be worried about overpaying
and I felt that, given the context, given how long this
had been taken, it was better that we overpay, if that's
the worst-case scenario, but make sure people get their
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money quickly, than wait until we derive the perfect
amount and they are not there to receive the money at
all.
Would such a direction overrule or resolve all of the
objections from the Treasury?
So this is where ministerial directions can be funny.
So if the Treasury doesn't give you the money at all,
you can't direct anything. They need to give you the
money first and then you can decide how it is best used.
So, yes, it can overrule certain requirements which they
might place on things but, quite often, a ministerial
direction comes in long after money has been given. But
this was also not just me trying to solve the problem,
but showing willing to my officials, so that they didn't
feel that they had to bear the responsibility.
Amministerial direction is often a short way of
saying, "Don't worry about it, itll be my problem not
yours”.
I was going to ask, was this exercising soft power,
essentially, an unkind way of describing it would be
sort of posturing, but in order to get a result?
It could be seen that way but I was very happy to make
the direction. So it wasn't just posturing but it was
signalling the direction which I wanted the Department
to take, and to make it very clear -- and I am happy
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resistance, and I do tend to choose my words carefully.
I did not see that as the end of the line. I saw it
very much as the first ~ this is -- I've been in the
Treasury, I know how Treasury works. The Treasury often
starts with "No", and eventually you haggle your way
through.
I was not expecting the documentary in January,
which helped speed things along but, knowing how the
Department worked, I knew that that was an opening move,
you'd get a response, and eventually, you would get
something and then we could use a ministerial direction
to try to move the process along for that specific
proposal
You wanted to look at the letter again, BEISO000705?
Yes. There might be something there which I can point
to, there might not, but I can't remember off the top of
my head.
itll just come up on the screen. If there is, it will
be in paragraphs 5 and 6?
Yes, the line, "I am receptive to measures which will
increase the likelihood of successful delivery’, in my
view was not a flatout, "No" but maybe "Try something
else, we don't think this is value for money’, and
that's where I could see room for manoeuvre. So the
Treasury was supportive of us of making sure that
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that we did this because now I can talk about it at the
Inquiry — to make it very clear that we need to change
the way we do things in Government. There is far too
much going around and around in circles and avoiding
taking serious real decisions because everybody is.
worried about getting into trouble later.
This is something which I tend not to worry about,
maybe I should do, but I do trust my judgement, and
I think that you look at the way this case has panned
out that we should have just done it in August 2023
I am glad we got there in the end but I think the
worries were ~- that people were overly worried, that's
the best way to put it.
Why was no ministerial direction simply issued by you?
Because there was no money to haggle over what the right
value should be. So, in order to issue a ministerial
direction around value for money, you need to have the
money in the first place and, at this point, no money
had been outlined specifically for this proposal. At
least, that's what I recall
So threatening or raising the possibility of
a ministerial direction would be ineffective?
Well, I don't think so because, if you look at the
letter, which the Chancellor had written, if we can just
go back to it because you said refusal, and I said
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compensation was paid in theory but, in practice, it was
very hard for them to move away from their usual
day-to-day behaviours, a lot of which, I think, was just
them acting by rote.
(had seen this myself as a minister in the Treasury
you get briefings and the briefing is often to say,
“Well, nothing can be done unless the Treasury says so,
it's got to be value for money". It just happens in
a way that's almost robotic, rather than looking
specifically at individual circumstances and seeing
whether you can -- you know, whether you can be
flexible. inflexibility, I think, is one of the
Treasury's flaws, and that would have been the advice
that I am certain was given to the Chancellor before he
wrote the letter which he wrote to me.
So were you disappointed or encouraged?
Neither. I's just how things work. I'd seen ~ I saw
enough there to know that it wasn't over but there
wasn't very much that I could do with that letter, and
we would need to try something else, try a different
angle, make a different case, or something.
You referenced earlier the documentary or the drama on
ITV. Was it essentially that which made the difference?
I think it suddenly tuned it from a value for money
question to a public perception question, and this is
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the point, you know, that we were talking about: it's
not enough to do the right thing; you also have to be
seen to be doing the right thing. And many people had
not known the arguments that were taking place behind
the scenes in Whitehall. There was an assumption that
nothing was being done, and it was the documentary that
made things happen.
But actually work was being done, it was too slow,
it wasn't happening quickly enough. No one could see
what was taking place. So what the documentary did in
my view was change the priority of this issue from
something which was behind the NHS and security, and so
on, you know, defence to, "We need to solve this now”.
So it brought the urgency, which I had wanted us to have
right from the get-go, it brought the urgency to it and
raised the prioritisation.
Q._ It's a bit disappointing, isn't it, if you step back,
that it takes three or four nights on ITV whilst we were
all at home in the New Year --
A. It’s extremely disappointing
Q._ —watching a programme to give something sufficient
attention that the Government thinks that perception has
changed and therefore takes action?
A. Well, I think that, if you look at it in the context of
what is happening in Government, there are 1,000 things
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do anything wrong”. And that might work in a very
simple system but Government is now too complex. The
problems we're trying to resolve are far too complex and
I don't think that works any more. We need to simplify
quite a few things.
MR BEER: Sir, on the absence of common sense in Whitehall,
might we take our lunch break?
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Certainly, Mr Beer, yes. When shall we
resume?
MR BEER: 2.00 pm, please.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Right
MR BEER: Thank you very much.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
(1.09 pm)
(The Short Adjournment)
(2.00 pm)
MR BEER: Good afternoon, sir. Can you see and hear us?
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes, thank you.
MR BEER: I'l just wait for the room to quieten down before
we start the questions.
‘Thank you, everyone. Ms Badenoch can we tum to the
issue of Henry Staunton, please. In your first witness
statement, you deal with the dismissal of Henry Staunton
as we had asked you to do. Just by way of background,
is it right that he was appointed as the Chair of Post
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that are being asked -- that money is being requested
for. And I think, after a while, the decision makers or
the analysts become very dispassionate. They're not
looking at it the way a politician might be looking at
it or the way a member of the public might be looking at
it, which is what is the human story here, who is being
impacted?
After a while, it just becomes another line in
a ledger and, well, if we take money away from
schools -- you know, if we give money to this, that's
money that's going to go away from schools
It is not irrational but it has to change: it is not
helpful either. And I think that the way we go about
doing things, making sure that every single box is
ticked and there's value for money and following all of
the rules and regulations which we've put in place, we
actually make things more expensive in the long run,
that we end up paying out more than we would do if we
just brought in common sense.
There is an absence of common sense in a lot of
Whitehall because people are afraid to trust themselves
and trust their judgement, follow principles and do the
right thing. People want legal cover. They want to do
things in a way that they can show a court or, you know,
a lawyer that, “Well, I followed the rules, and I didn't
114
Office back on 2 September 2022, and so pre-dated your
appointment as Secretary of State by about five months?
Yes. I'm not exactly sure of his appointment date but
it certainly pre-dated me.
He wasn't, in any event, one of your appointments?
No, he was not.
When you started your position as Secretary of State in
February 2023 and were briefed, was anything said to you
about Mr Staunton being problematic or an unsuitable
person to be the Chair of the Post Office?
Not when I first started. There were issues around
general -- there were general issues around the Board
finding the right people, and so on, and that it was not
a happy place, being at the Post Office. But nothing
specific or personal, no.
So nothing specific or personal about him?
No.
Nothing of the order of magnitude that was suggested to
you the following year in January 2024?
No, nothing at all.
Okay. Can we go back to the briefing you received,
BEIS0001061. Can we go to page 9, please. This
briefing to you sets out the key stakeholders. The
first bullet point refers to Mr Staunton, Post Office
Chair, Henry Staunton, and it says that it's recommended
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that you meet him.
Did you meet Mr Staunton?
No. No, I did not.
Why not?
I don't know. There was a recommendation that I met him
and I didn't say no to that, but nothing was ever
organised. It may be that something was and it fell
through, but I remember at this point I'm stil trying
to carry out a lot of my Trade Secretary work, I'm
travelling a lot. So if people weren't sort of banging
on the door to meet, the meetings didn't necessarily
happen. And, remember, the Post Office is one of very
many arm's-length bodies. I didn't meet the people
running a lot of them unless there was often an issue.
I would get updated. They tended to meet with the
Department Director General or with the junior minister.
So a Secretary of State meeting was not necessarily
prerequisite to doing the job. But those that wanted to
meet me did meet me. There was never any requests from
Mr Staunton, either.
When you subsequently came to inform Mr Staunton on
27 January the following year, 2024, in the course of
a phone call that he was being dismissed from his
position as Chair of the Post Office, you made a number
of comments about the fact that the pair of you had
417
him that he was being dismissed?
No.
But we've got a verbatim note of that and I needn't go
back to that. Can you help us, why was the call
recorded?
To help the notetaker carry out a good summary of
minutes.
Is that usual?
I don't know. I don't know; I don't take the notes. It
may be, it may not be.
Did you know that it was recorded?
Not at the time.
Okay, so this was something that was going on by —-
This was something I discovered after Mr Staunton had
made the false allegations to The Sunday Times, and when
I asked for the transcripts and the notes, I didn't ~
you know — explaining that I know I had not said the
things which he said, I was then made aware there was
a recording which would prove that as well.
Do you know whether Mr Staunton was informed that it was
recorded at the time of the —
If wasn't, I suspect he wasn't as well. The purpose
of the recording was to get minutes written accurately
and probably they would have been disposed of
immediately and maybe retrieved from deleted place,
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never met --
Yes.
— over the course of that year, didn't you?
Yes, yes, I did
Can we look, please, at a transcript of a recording of
that call, BEISO001059. You can see this is
a transcription of the phone call that you had with
Mr Staunton on 27 January 2024. Now, I think you didn't
have this transcript when you first made your first
witness statement?
No, no, I didn't.
You said you very much wanted to have it and you'd asked
Departmental officials to track down a copy of the tape?
Yes.
I think you worked in your first witness statement from
a note -- a near verbatim note ~- taken by
an official —
Yes.
~ and then a summary to that note which was published
to the media?
Yes.
Now, we've now got the tape and, therefore, this
transcript of it. You'll see that it starts up sort of
mid-sentence and doesn't include the introductions at
the beginning, nor the part where you actually informed
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I don't know.
Is it normal, then, for all your calls to be recorded?
I don't know because I've never had -~- I've never
needed ~ never had this situation before, so it
probably isn’t, but I suspect, on this occasion, it was
just to make sure that the minutes were very accurate,
given the severity and the media interest, that the
minutes were very accurate. That's certainly what I was
made to understand at the time, that it wouldn't
necessarily be usual to have a recording.
Let's read through this. Mr Staunton, in mid-sentence,
says:
*... change anything that requires the government
civil servant where we get whistleblowed and whatever,
whatever. You can — it is a massive, massive problem
here in terms of trying ~- at least you've got training
going much better now, things are moving in certain
direction. But it's a handful and, I've got to say,
I've chaired some companies, a lot of companies, very
successfully but this one's ~ this one’s a bit of
anightmare. But we could have got through it but it
needed UKGI to be onside and I didn't feel they were
onside for a moment. And I'm sure that UKGI was talking
to the journalist. That's what they did before, not
actually sorting out the business.”
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The context of that is, by the time you're speaking,
the fact that you were to dismiss him had already been
leaked.
Yes, which was extremely frustrating because I had
wanted to do it in a particular sequence and spare him
embarrassment where I could.
You say:
"Iknow. I'm sorry to hear that but why didn't you
get in touch with me?"
Him: "Because I had an inkling only last week with
the Chairman and Chief Executive UKGI and was I was
going to tell them all this. I know it's UKGI but
I never met you, you see, and it's just -- but it's ...
“Ive chaired so many companies you would not
believe. I'm working on this business 60 hours a week,
whereas I can take Swiss, despite -- I chose Swiss as
an international company where the share price more than
quadrupled and I could do that on 15 hours a week. This
is four times the time. You just wouldn't know the half
of it, Secretary of State."
You: "I do know, I do know. This is what, this is
what the world is like today within the public sector.
What I did find out of the ordinary was that of all the
arm’s-length bodies that I'm responsible for, the Post
Office was the one where I never heard from you
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know, in terms of relationships with ministers.
So, by that, you mean “but you didn't seem to have any
interest in doing much more"?
Yes. That's what that —
So that's directed towards Mr Staunton not
Mr Hollinrake?
No, no, no, no. I think Mr Hollinrake did an excellent
job.
You continue:
“I've been given a very, very high level overview of
the government's issue that has led to the advice given
to me about the decisions which I have now taken, but
I want to make sure that you have had a chance to make
your views known as well. But, given where we are and
what I've just said, what would you like to see happen
now?"
Him: "Right. So what we need to do is actually
I think ~ it's a very difficult one with regard to the
CEO, who's very unstable and actual I said to Loma ...”
That's Loma Gratton, yes, UKGI?
Mm-hm,
“... we need to have an adult conversation with him to
say, look, stay through the Inquiry and we'll treat you
as a good leaver -- nail him down for 12 months. Well,
of course she says, oh, well, in this government it's
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directly. You know the CMA, UCES" —
That would have been "UKEF”, UK Export Finance.
*... the British Business Banks, the chairs of all these
organisations would reach out to my office fairly
frequently. And Kevin Hollinrake did manage the
relationship very well, but there didn't seem to be much
interest in doing much more.”
Just stopping there, what did you mean by that,
“Kevin Hollinrake did manage the relationship very well,
but there didn't seem to be any interest in doing much
more"?
In that Kevin did have meetings with him and he fed back
to me how that relationship was going, and so, in terms
of making sure that he was staying in touch with the
Post Office, that was going well. But what I was trying
to signal to Mr Staunton, and which I do believe now, is
that he didn't seem to want to meet me. And, you know,
‘one can speculate on the reasons from a hindsight
perspective but, at the time, I simply assumed that he
was perfectly happy having meetings with Kevin
Hollinrake. In hindsight, I think that he did not want
to meet me.
So "there didn't seem to be any interest in doing much
more", you're saying interest by you, Mr Staunton?
Yeah, interest in Mr Staunton doing much more with, you
4122
very difficult to offer could leaver status. If we have
a crisis, it's not a big deal; he might get an extra
100,000 that he wouldn't get if he wasn't a good leaver
but at least we nail him down for a year and the money
he would get for good leaver status actually seems to be
more important to him than actually the sums involved
So I think we need to nail the Chief Exec down."
That's the first things. The second thing he goes
on to address:
"We must do something about -- we must make this
organisation more postmaster centric. I said we need to
have an oversight committee chaired jointly by the two
Postmaster Directors, we need to introduce a third
Postmaster Director, so the message will get out to the
network that the Post Office is changing. And, trust
me, at the moment it is terrible the view of the Post
Office out in the network. So have a third postmaster.
"We're really then, Secretary of State, starting
this journey towards demutualisation. We're not to say
that, but that's what you need to do. The SID process,
it's six for two. Never mind what Lorna thinks and the
fact that we've gone outside. The fact is when the
facts change, you change your decision. We need to have
an internal policy -- if you met Darfoor you'd recognise
this is a class act which ought to be asked so we can —
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can quite see why everyone's got there. And the fact
that we started out on a public journey -- it was
a different world two months ago. I mean, we were just
-- you know, it's just been horrific the last four
weeks. We need to get on the front foot and I think
that postmaster centric does that for you.”
Then moving on:
“There's a feeling within the business -- Richard
Taylor said all the post masters are on the take and
they're all guilty as charged, we wrote to the Lord
Chancellor stating that was our view, and that would be
Peters & Peters. That's not my view and I don't think
it's the view of the majority of the Board but I think
that UKGI and people sending that letter with (unclear)
it was very -- it was actually contrary to what the
Government ministers were trying to do and in fact you'd
be surprised [at] the sort of things your civil servants
say about ministers.
"So it's a mess. But the fact is ‘you are guilty as
charged, postmasters are on the take’ it's got to change
and we need a massive cultural shift in this
organisation to do that. And most of the directors are
on side and the UKGI director is not. She couldn't —
she couldn't run a bath, let alone run a company. We've
got a big problem there. We need to take some very
125
there's a lot that needed to be done. That's what I'm
alluding to there: it's not just about UKGI.
But what I wasn't trying to do was give an opening
for him to pick apart particular individuals on the
Board. I didn't think that that was a helpful road to
go down. I did want to get his view about what had
happened and I didn't want to have an argument with him.
So I'm agreeing where we thought we could find some kind
of agreement and then moving the conversation on to the
things that I was trying to elicit from him.
Can we move much further into the call and turn to
page 9, please. This is you speaking at the top of the
page and this is about whether he should turn up to the
Board meeting that was going to happen on Monday or
Tuesday of that week, and you were saying, "No, you
should not".
You say: “I'm sorry but that would need to be the
case given the conversation we've had and what I suspect
the media after going to be doing.”
Sorry, could you let me know where in the hard copy
I could find that?
B19.
B19?
Yes.
Bear with me. Ah, thank you.
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tough business-like decisions in terms of culture to
change it. And when we talk about culture, as Nick
said, Lorna thinks it would just be a crusade for female
diversity. It's not that. It goes to the heart of how
we operate Post Office, this cultural shift. It's
enormous what we need to do but I think it's possible.
"But I don't think it's -- you know, we need to have
Andrew as the SID. The Chairman would put it through.
I think you need to change the UKGI Directors and just
get to the core. And it's a battle that's winnable but,
by God, it's going to be a battle.”
You say: “It certainly is ..."
What in that previous passage were you agreeing
with?
That it's going to be ~ that sorting things out is
going to be a battle.
Specifically, what did you think was going to be
a battle?
I think that the conversation here was about the general
Board. So he says, "We need to change the UKGI
Directors and just get to the core", but he is giving
personal view about Lorna Gratton, and he thinks that
the issue is between the Post Office and UKGI. I am,
you know, being amicable and saying "Yes, it is going to
be a battle". The Board, in my view, was the issue and
126
We're at the top of page 9
Yes.
So we dealt at the bottom of page 8 with not turning up
at the next Board meeting and you say, "I'm sorry but
that will need to be the case’.
I think I'm talking about his leaving and about not
giving reasons. Am I looking at the wrong —
Yes, you are. Bottom of page 8.
Bottom of page 8. So I'm saying, "I'm sorry but that
will need to be the case",
If we just go back on the screen to the bottom of
page 8, please.
Sorry, yes, I've found it. It's page 9 on mine.
found it. Thank you,
We can see that on this passage here —
Yes, that's right this is about ~
Immediately beforehand, you were trying to arrange some
contact details --
Yes, that's right —
~ and you couldn't get anyone on the call that was
listening in to acknowledge that they were listening in,
80 you had to write down his mobile phone ~
Yes.
~ or his email address?
I think that when the -- the way that the Government
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does these calls it was a switch call that they were
muted and so they were unable to join the conversation.
So looking at the bottom of page 8, he says:
“.- therefore, I won't turn up to the Board meeting
on Monday or Tuesday.”
You say: "Yes, that is correct.”
He says: "Fine."
Then we go to the top of page 9, you say:
“I'm sorry but that will need to be the case ..."
Yes.
Which is why I said the context of you saying that —
Thank you.
-- was not tuning up. Anyway, you carry on, third
line:
"... ifi's any consolation at all, I doubt it will
be, but I'm very angry about the fact that this has been
leaked without us doing this properly."
He says: "Appalling. Appalling.”
You say: “It is appalling and I have noted what you
have said about UKGI. I do think that they have been
part of the problem and that is the next step."
What problem were UKGI a part of?
I think that the communication channels between myself
and UKGI should have been -- there should have been more
information passing direct to me, not just through
129
problem as a sop to him?
No not so much as a sop but, if a chair feels that way,
then UKGI should have been aware and should have been
made me aware as the sole shareholder, not just told
Minister Hollinrake. There was no note, for example.
Just because I wasn't meeting them on a day-to-day basis
doesn't mean they couldn't have sent a note to me for me
to review, and that didn't happen either. So these are
the sort of processes which I would recommend to the new
Secretary of State to ensure that UKGI are giving a full
and frank view, rather than just the vanilla view of
what's going on.
There's too much vanilla in terms of reporting and,
actually, it's very hard to know early when problems are
occurring.
What do you mean, “there is too much vanilla"?
That the way notes are written in the Civil Service is
often too ~ in a way that too much isn't said. For
me -- and I'm speaking for myself now -- other ministers
may not necessarily want this ~ I prefer to just have
the detail unvarnished, "We think this person a problem.
We don't think they're doing a good job. We think they
are dishonest", and so on. People tend not to like
writing things down, maybe because of inquiries like
this or an FO! request or who knows.
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1 Kevin. And Kevin would, of course, give me a summary,
2 but there were some times that we actually ended up
3 coming to different views on things. So we had
4 different views, for example, on Nick Read, the CEO, not
5 problematically but we just had a different -- we just
6 came to different conclusions.
7 And I felt that my own interactions with UKGI were
8 very limited and I didn't actually meet Lorna herself
9 until it was — the issues with Henry Staunton had come
10 to light and we were in the process of sacking him:
"1 And also, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt
12 with what he had said earlier on in the conversation
13 about issues with UKGI. If you remember, the views
14 I have about Henry Staunton now are different from where
15 I was at the time of this conversation, where this is —
16 where I was thinking this is someone who's made too many
7 mistakes, the position is untenable, but he was probably
18 in his own way doing his best, to where I am now, where
19 there's just been repeated uses of misinformation, and
20 80 on.
21 I took it in good faith that his complaints about
22 UKGI were well meant and true from his perspective.
23 Given everything that has happened since then, I don't
24 think that his complaints about UKGI are well founded
25 So were you just saying I think UKGI are part of the
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1 So, instead, you get what I call a vanilla version
2 of "There are concerns", and that could mean anything,
3 It could mean that there are minor concerns which you
4 don't need to worry about or there are very significant
5 concems which we don't want to put on paper. And as
6 a minister who is getting 100 pieces of information
7 a day where you have to prioritise, you might not
8 recognise that there's a big red flag because of how
9 a note has been written.
10 This is standard across the Civil Service. It's
"1 just the way things are written, probably to not alarm
12 people, to not create panic, and to keep the discretion
13 there because it's very hard to keep all notes secret,
14 even when they are marked "Official Sensitive". And
15 maybe UKGI didn't have this view, I don't know, but I do
16 find that the unvarnished truth is more helpful than the
17 vanilla version.
18 Can we take that down and go back to the process that
19 led to the dismissal of Mr Staunton, by looking at your
20 first witness statement, please. That will come up on
21 the screen for you. It's page 2, paragraph 10. If we
22 just go down, under the heading, “Concerns regarding
23 Mr Staunton's conduct", you say, "On 24 January”, so
24 that's three days before this call we're speaking about.
25 A. Yes.
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I received a written submission date 23 January
prepared by UKGI and Departmental officials, in which
I was advised of specific concerns in relation to
Mr Staunton's conduct and his suitability for office.
[They] were", then you list them 1 to 5. It goes over
the page.
That fairly reflects the documents. I am going to
read them out.
Okay.
*(1) That he had repeatedly attempt to shut down,
a whistleblowing investigation into his conduct.
*(2) That he had engaged in aggressive, intimidating
and disrespectful behaviour to other Board members and
members of the POL Executive Team.
“(3) That he showed poor understanding of the public
sector aspect of POL's work and poor judgement.
*(4) That he had disregarded proper governance
processes as [the] Chair, most recently by announcing
the appointment of a new Senior Independent Director for
[Post Office] without following formal consultation with
the Board, following Board processes or sharing
shareholder approval as required.
*(6) That he had failed to provide constructive
support to {the Post Office's] CEO."
I think it follows that, so far as you were aware,
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together with a box note, and the box note -- and you
give us the reference there -- stated that the
recommendation to remove Mr Staunton came from the
Senior Independent Director and then Remuneration
Committee Chair. The concerns included allegations of
misogyny and racism against Mr Staunton and that
officials agreed that his conduct and judgement made him
unsuitable to continue as Chair.
Was it on that basis that you decided to dismiss
him?
It was on the basis of everything that had come to
light: a conversation with Kevin, with Kevin Hollinrake,
but also, going back to the point that I made earlier
about doing it the right thing and being seen to do the
right thing, I think that we should always be clear
about what we are doing and, if you are sacking someone,
then giving them the opportunity to resign can mean that,
a different story is communicated to the public. And
I wanted people to be clear about what was happening.
I didn't want him to have a huge amount of
embarrassment. I wanted us to have a controlled story
about why we'd asked him to leave, which we lost because
of the leak.
But the initial recommendation, which I was
considering, about giving him the opportunity to resign,
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none of the issues that were set out for you included
the speed at which compensation was to be paid by the
Government or the Post Office to subpostmasters arising
from the scandal, nor a dispute between Mr Staunton and
the Government and or Post Office about that speed.
No.
In particular, the go-slow suggestion that he was
subsequently to make did not feature in the list of five
issues that were brought to your attention?
No. They had nothing to do with that submission. And,
you know, from our earlier session, the letter that
I wrote to Treasury showed that we were not -- that's
certainly not what my Department was doing.
"11, The submission recommended that I should decide
that Mr Staunton could not continue in his role as Chair
and that if [you] agreed [you] should offer him the
opportunity to resign rather than excise [your] power
under [the] Articles of Association to remove him."
You record, and this is backed up by the documents
you refer to, that submission was referred, in
paragraph 13, to your Private Office by email, with
a covering text that said that the submission reflects
the Permanent Secretary's view as well as that of
Government Legal Department and UKGI lawyers.
The submission was placed in an overnight box,
134
I did not think was the right one, given the detail of
the allegations, the seriousness of them, and the sheer
number of issues that we were having with him as Chair.
Thank you. You refer in that series of documents to the
initial note, the submission that came up to you in the
box.
Mm.
Can we look at that, please, BEIS0000868. This is the
submission that came up to you, as you've said, on the
24th; i's date the 23rd. It's addressed to Kevin
Hollinrake and you, addressed to you by Lorna Gratton,
and Carl Creswell from UKGI and the Department
respectively. Then in the first line, it says:
"We have previously expressed concerns to you about
Henry Staunton’s suitability to be Chair of the Post
Office Board.”
Firstly, is that accurate: that they, either Lorna
Gratton or Carl Creswell, or both, or their
Department's, had expressed previously concems to you
about Henry Staunton?
Yes. Itisn't just accurate, it's also illustrating the
point I made earlier about the vanilla -- you know, the
vanilla update. Concems had been expressed but not
detail, So it was statements like, "We don't think it's
going to work out with the Post Office, we have some
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concerns" and I would ask what's happening? "Well,
there’s an investigation, we can't really talk about it.
We're not supposed to know, we don't want to prejudice
but we'll let -- you know, eventually we'll let you
know’, by which time it's time to sack.
So itis true that they had previously expressed
concems but the strength of the concerns was not clear
until the submission, which we just referred to in
January.
Can you recall anything in more detail about the
substance of the calls?
No, no. If what came out in the submission had been
said previously, I would have taken much more of
an interest but the way that the information had been
conveyed was that there was a problem and the processes
were in place to handle them, and I didn't need to worry
about it Minister Hollinrake would look more but, at the
right escalation point, I would be informed. So, from
my perspective, the system was -- the system was
working. There was a problem, it wasn't yet Secretary
of State level issue, they were trying to resolve it,
and because we had had other issues -- there was the
problem with the Inquiry metric and the bonuses which
had been paid ~ it felt at that point like one of those
things, where they just weren't getting a handle of the
137
people are innocent until proven guilty. I think if
we'd acted much faster than that, that would have been
against that principle.
Were you aware before you accepted the advice to dismiss
Mr Staunton, that he was a strong advocate and supporter
of the Subpostmaster Non-Executive Directors?
No, I was not aware but I am not sure that is
necessarily true given what I remember people saying
when I did visit the Post Office. There were a lot of
subpostmasters who did not like Mr Staunton, so that's
his word, and, you know, there's no reason for us not to
believe him, but the evidence of that I didn't think was
much.
I'm referring specifically to being a strong supporter
of the Subpostmaster NEDs on the Board?
Again, that's actually what I did mean, both the
subpostmasters and the ones on the Board. He always
said that, he certainly said that in his call to me but
of course that's a call we're having after he's just
been relieved of his position.
Thank you. That can come down
You, I think, were party to the appointment of Nigel
Railton as POL's Chair, at least Interim Chair; is that
right?
Yes.
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job.
Do you think the Department should have acted sooner in
dealing with and/or removing Mr Staunton?
I don't know. I think it's hard to carry out
a significant action like that in terms of removing
someone when the processes haven't been followed,
because of the unfair dismissal, you know, Employment
Tribunal type repercussions, which could come from not
doing things properly. So when it comes to acting
quickly, I always start from the perspective of who is
impacted. So with the acting quickly in terms of,
getting post masters compensation, yes, because we want
to make sure that they're treated properly and fairly.
But acting quickly, in terms of sacking a chair, creates
the opposite issue, where someone may not necessarily be
treated properly and fairly because we're trying to move
in haste, so it's always about what is the impact on the
person; what is the outcome we're trying to achieve?
I would rather make some mistakes and get
‘compensation out to postmasters quickly but I would
rather take some time and act slowly in order to make
sure that we don't sack someone unfairly or give them
a right of appeal or right to a fair hearing where
a process demands that.
And I also believe very much in the concept that
138
Can we look, please, at BEIS0001070. This is a letter
from you to him in May 2024, in which, in the opening
paragraph, you extend your congratulations to him on his
appointment as Interim Chair of the Post Office and
welcome him in your role as the sole shareholder. Yes?
Yes.
I just want to look at the strategic priorities. You'll
see that's the heading of the letter. "Strategic
Priorities for 2024/25"
Can you help us, what's the purpose and status of
a letter like this?
So it is to formally let someone know what you're
expecting them to do in the job.
Is it what you're expecting them to do in the job or
what you're expecting Post Office to do as
an organisation?
Well, specifically in this case it was what I wanted him
to look at as Chair of Post Office. I can't remember
whether this had been done for the Post Office. It
wouldn't be an annual --it's written in an annual way
now but it wouldn't necessarily be an annual ~ a set of
priorities. We'd normally do those sorts of things over
several years. So if strategic priorities had been done
the previous Secretary of State would have done them.
We tend to have policy statements for regulators and
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arm’s-length bodies about what we expect them to do, but
2024/25 was very much a focus on conversations which I'd
had with him about urgently turning things around for
the Post Office.
I should have said that this is a draft, hence the date
and the passage in grey. You tell us in your second
witness statement -- no need to tum it up — in
paragraph 36 that this is a draft version but that you
understand that the final version cannot be located by
the Department, although you believe it would have been
in very similar terms?
Mm. Yes.
If we scroll down, please. You say:
“... Lwould like you to focus on the following
priorities for the" —
Sorry, can you tell me where in the hard copy I can see
this?
Yes, BB25.
BB25. Thank you
So the main paragraph from the bottom, highlighted:
“In this capacity, I would like you to focus on the
following priorities for the Financial Year 2024/25..."
Then there are three priorities set out in bold,
number 1:
“Intensifying existing workstreams to address [Post
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It might have been in that initial briefing or in
subsequent meetings about the Post Office. But the most
substantive conversation I had about NBIT was when
I visited the Aldwych branch of the Post Office, and
spoke to them about how that project was going and what
they needed from me.
Were you consulted or provided with updates regarding
the development of NBIT?
No, not directly. I imagine Kevin was but I was not.
Did you have any oversight of the Post Office's approach
to and the rolling out of NBIT?
No, and I wouldn't expect to. That's the sort of thing
which I think the Post Office has to do itself. Having
political direction is very different from the sort of
operational day-to-day decisions which would have been
taken but this is — this was put in as a strategic
property, because I'd had that meeting and I was quite
concemed, just from my own background in technology,
about the direction the project was going.
Does it follow that, so far as you're concerned, Post
Office's engagements regarding NBIT were limited to
essentially funding requests?
Yes, certainly -- well, that was my experience. It
might not have been Minister Hollinrake's experience or
previous Secretary of State's experience but that was my
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Office's] historic failures and setting the business up
for future success.”
Then over the page:
"2. Supporting the cultural transformation of the
‘Company and focusing on improving on (Post Office's}
capacity, capability and resilience at all levels.”
Then
"3. Enabling the future success of [the Post
Office], including effective financial management and
performance to ensure medium-term viability.”
Then particulars are give in bullet points under
each of those three strategic objectives.
Yes.
One of the points that you mention under 3, and it's the
fourth sub-bullet point under 3, is:
"Maintain stringent cost control and a focus on
value for money and efficient, delivery across the cost
base including on the New Branch IT (NBIT) and IT
projects, legal costs, acceleration of the network
strategy, of the approach to directly-managed branches
and measures aimed at reducing central costs."
Now, I don't think NBIT, the New Branch IT
Programme, is mentioned in your witness statements. Can
you recall when you first became aware of NBIT?
No, I can't recall when I first became aware of NBIT.
142
experience. But I also would not expect to be getting
into the detail of the IT projects of the Post Office.
I would have been expecting a high level overview of
what they were trying to achieve and how much money they
needed
Government ministers said the same to us when they gave
evidence to the Inquiry about the development and
rollout of Horizon: "I wouldn't expect to be getting
involved in that kind of thing”
Mm.
Does it follow that you have not been made aware of any
issues with the development of NBIT?
Well, the project is overrunning and it's requiring
a lot more than was budgeted for it. That, in my view,
is an issue. But, in terms of how it is working, no,
and I would not expect to see that. I did have some
conversations about how to extend the new Horizon
system, which Fujitsu had been supporting, because that
would have -- we needed something in place. That ending
would cause a serious problem for postmasters. So
managing the day-to-day contract, and ensuring that that
continued until a replacement was ready was very
important to me because, otherwise, everything would
fall over.
Thank you. That can come down, that document.
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Just lastly, then, from me, you tell us in your
witness statement - I'l read it out without turing it
up:
“Ifit (the Post Office] was a private organisation
it would have disappeared in its current form long ago.
We are keeping it alive. The result is that it is in
a permanent state of stress. We will need to make sure
that we're recruiting with that in mind.”
Would you agree that it's imperative not merely to
keep Post Office alive but to transform it?
Yes, yes, I would.
What, in your view, is essential, in terms of what needs
to be done in order to change or to transform the Post
Office?
Well, this is a very difficult question. Because the
fundamentals which underpin the Post Office are very
difficult to manage in the age that we live in. When ~
pre-Internet, the Post Office would have been
a commercial entity that any organisation would bite its
hand off to run. You know, the universal service it
effectively provided just meant that it had a very easy
stream of cash. Now, that is not the case. But we
believe, certainly when the Conservatives were in
Government, we did believe that this is an entity that
has not just operational significance but also
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money; i's taxpayers’ money as well. We subsidise this
organisation. How do we do so in a way that can keep it
going, that can refresh it for the 21st century? It is
a labour of love. That's one of the reasons why I had
to make a direct appointment for Nigel Railton, rather
than an open one.
People are simply not interested now in going to
work for the Post Office at that level because of the
intense levels of public scrutiny, because of the
difficulties in making decisions which you would be able
to do very easily in a private sector organisation. You
need people who are prepared to do a difficult job, as
if they were public servants, even though that's not
quite the case, and I think that's a huge challenge in
terms of transformation for the Post Office. I don't
know how we do it. It requires its own piece of work.
I know that there have been reviews. I don't think
anyone has come up with the correct answers yet.
Thank you. Then in terms of Government's role in this,
I just want — the very last thing — to ask you about
a sentence or two in your witness statement. If we look
at it, please, I think it's your second witness
statement. It's page 12, paragraph 41. At the top of
paragraph 41, you're dealing here with decision making
within Government and you say something that you said to
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a cultural significance that should not be lost.
How we maintain that going forwards, given how much
it costs, is very difficult. The sort of transformation
that you might have in a commercial organisation just
doesn't work in Government. The sort of decisions which
you would take which are around profit and profit for
the shareholder just don't come into ~ they don't come
into play. And that, I think, is what I was alluding to
in my witness statement when I say it's just in
a permanent state of stress.
1am — well, I was the sole shareholder. The
Business Secretary is the solicitor shareholder but even
they aren't the ones who provide the money. It's
a totally different department. So it just doesn't make
sense the way a commercially structured organisation in
the private sector would be run. And any sort of
transformation, in my view, needs to start from the
objectives which we have in mind for what the Post
Office needs to deliver, how it works within that
universal service obligation, which goes with Royal
Mail, making sure that everybody has access to post,
given that there's, you know, just a lot of competition.
That's quite difficult to do within the restricted
funding environment which is expected for every single
public sector organisation. Itis not the customer's
146
us more than once today:
"There is a cautious, risk-averse culture within the
Civil Service, which is ... baked in."
But then, do you see about three lines from the
bottom there, it says:
“If we want our Government to make decisions faster,
we need to reduce some of the public law burden
Can you see that?
Yes, I do
"... and if we choose not to do so, we must accept this
has consequences for speed and efficiency of Government.
Every time we create more public law to hold [the]
Government to account, it is slower to deliver for
people.”
I just want to make sure we've understood what you
mean by those sentences. Is it your evidence that the
Government's accountability to the courts is that which
prevents it from acting with speed?
It does slow things down. If, as a minister, you make
a decision and every decision is open to challenge on
the basis of judicial review, it is quite rational the
civil servants will do every single thing they can to
make sure that you don't end up getting taken to court.
All of those things which they do end up slowing down
the process. It is just part and parcel of, you know,
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of creating more accountability, that you add extra
processes. Those will take time. Those will need to be
followed.
Itis a trade-off that is baked in; itis a part of
creating accountability. The thing is you can't just
have someone making a decision and saying, "Do this" and
the thing happens instantly. It means that things never
happen instantly because you have to create an audit
trail, you have to go through the checks and balances,
you have to have more meetings, you need to consult,
consultations can take months. All of those things slow
down the pace of delivery. And it's not about
criticising accountability: it is about understanding
where the opportunity costs are and making sure that we
can see where it is that perhaps these things might need
to change in order to stop the sort of injustice which
we saw take place around Horizon or, in fact, with
delays to paying compensation.
And it's also the same thing, even within the case
of Henry Staunton, you know, you asked the question why
didn't we remove him earlier? If we had done that, then
we could have created more problems in the future by not
providing the evidence and the audit trail. It's just
part and parcel of accountability but the more
Government does, the bigger Government gets, the more it
149
look at how we can reform public law. The law is not
above criticism. We should be able to say that,
actually, this isn't working well, what can we do to
improve it? Rather than what is happening now where
people say, "Oh, it's the rule of law, we can't too
much. Let's not do anything", and then there's more and
more injustice.
We shouldn't be afraid to challenge ourselves. We
shouldn't be afraid to challenge the system, we
shouldn't be afraid to challenge Government and we
shouldn't be afraid to challenge the law, if we think
the law is not delivering for the people.
MR BEER: Ms Badenoch, those are my questions. Thank you
very much for answering some of them,
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
MR BEER: Can I hand over to Core Participants and I'd ask
them to be mindful, please, of the time limits we're
operating under, thank you.
Questioned by MR STEIN
MR STEIN: Ms Badenoch, with the (unclear) of time in mind,
can I take you to a document, please. BEISO001061. It
will come up on your screen in a moment.
A. Okay. Is there a hard copy reference for that?
Q._ There'd probably is but I'm going to look to Mr Beer to
provide the hard copy reference, as I don't have it. It
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has to do these things, the more requirements there are
on the Treasury, the more likely itis that the Treasury
is going to be saying no or creating value for money
arguments that mean that it's salami slicing everything,
and everybody is just getting a little bit of what it
needs rather than a big chunk to deliver and perhaps
provide transformation.
Can I summarise that: it's your view that the rule of
law stands in the way of delivery of services by the
Government to people?
No, that's not what I'm saying. This not about the rule
of law; this is about the burden of regulation. The
Burton of regulation is not the rule of law. You can
have the rule of law without an excessive burden of
regulation. But if you keep adding more and more rules,
that will slow things down. It doesn't mean that you
don't want the rule of law but the rule of law has
a purpose and that is to create a fair system which
everybody is treated equally and where everyone can
receive justice. If you keep creating more regulations
and people aren't getting justice then something has
gone wrong.
And we should be able to look at that without
assuming that this is a criticism of the entire system
of the rule of law. It means that we should be able to
150
was a document you were shown earlier on in your
evidence, which if we go to the first of the two-page 5s
within the document —
MR BEER: BB3.
A.
BB3, thank you.
MR STEIN: Thank you. Do you have the document -—
A.
Qa
Ido.
The page I'm looking at is Post Office strategy. There
are two page 5s within this document, which I think you
‘commented on with Mr Beer, that it's probably a document
that’s been reworked for your purposes.
Yes.
If we look there under "Post Office Strategy",
Ms Badenoch, it then says this, final bullet point:
"Recent ministers have been more cautious about
going public on this work than their predecessors. As
a result we are taking this strategy/policy work forward
only internally within HMG and together with POL. We
will then advise ministers of findings and ministers,
(including with HMT ministers) will then decide whether
they want to make any changes to the current policy
framework and if so, when to proceed with the necessary
public consultation.”
Just help us unpack that. Recent ministers. Now,
‘since let me see, 2019, which is when the High Court
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litigation, what we call the GLO litigation, took place,
and essentially the Post Office was found in two seminal
judgments to have failed subpostmasters, all right?
Mm.
So since that time, we had Ms Andrea Leadsom in 2019 to
2020; and then from 2020 to 2021 Lord Alok Sharma; after
that, in 2021 to 2022, we had Mr Kwarteng; and then in
mid-2022, so 2022 to the middle of 2022, we had
Mr Rees-Mogg; and then your immediate predecessor was
Mr Shapps.
So we had a revolving door of ministers, really,
going through, I'm afraid, the role that you then took
up as Secretary of State. So the ministers that we seem
to be being referred to here in the final bullet point,
“Recent ministers have been more cautious about going
public on this work than their predecessors”, the title
of the work being Post Office strategy. When you came
into post, did you find that any work had taken place
regarding Post Office strategy?
I believe that there had been some work being done.
What was it?
I mean, I don't have the documents in front of me. But
I remember us looking at what the Post Office was doing
in three buckets: dealing with compensation claims under
the fallout of Horizon; managing the day-to-day running
153
actually have a clear sense of direction of where the
Post Office wants to go, and the strategy work, which
had come back, was often very, very speculative in
nature: demutualisation, do we even need a Post Office?
Having those sorts of conversations in public is very
alarming for people who are hearing the conversation
happen before you've actually settled on a direction.
So that's not surprising to me at all.
The judgments, which were the starting point for this
Inquiry, on which this Inquiry is based, were in 2019.
Now, we finally hear this year from Mr Railton who comes
to this Inquiry to give evidence, and he says, "Well,
there's been a submission up to Government this year",
after your time in office —
Mm.
-- setting out a proposal for the forward looking
strategy to govern the Post Office into the future. It
doesn't seem as though, frankly, anything has been done,
Ms Badenoch, from 2019 until after your appointment of
Mr Railton, when he decides that, well, something ought
to be done about this, really and maybe we ought to
nudge Government's arm?
No, that wouldn't have been the case. Nothing had been
decided but, if you recall looking at the strategy —
strategic priorities that I set out for Nigel Railton,
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of the Post Office; and the future transformation, the
NBIT IT programme and also thinking about how and where
this might interact with Royal Mail, which of course we
also had some responsibilities for in terms of
delivering its universal service obligation.
So the issue here around revolving ministers,
I think, can often be overstated. Primarily because
people often don't understand the difference between
setting political policy direction and company policy
direction, and it was one of the questions which counsel
asked right at the beginning, in terms of who is
carrying out the policy work.
There is policy, in terms of internal company policy
which officials might have some view on, but general
overview that comes from ministers is often political in
nature. So I'm not surprised, for example, that it says
that recent ministers had been cautious about going
public because there's a lot of deliberation which takes
place, which in a commercial company, just wouldn't
happen, but because it's a public company, people are
more interested in, but it's not necessarily helpful
when you have not come to a final conclusion or
a decision.
Listening to ministers and officials and the Post
Office Executives deliberate is not helpful until you
154
I also asked him to have a look again because I did not
think that we were getting anywhere with the previous
strategy discussions. And I seem to remember that some
consultants had been brought in -- I can't remember
whether that was Grant Thornton -- and what their remit
had been, but this was something that had been worked on
but never concluding, and I wanted something that was
specific with the proper outcome, which was viable to
deliver because, at the end of the day, we would have to
go to the Treasury rather than the public for the money.
But this is, in my view, not as a result of changing
ministers. This is actually more as a result of other
things that are happening in the background: spending
review settlements, changes in Government more
generally, it wouldn't have mattered if the same person
had stayed in if you had a Prime Minister who's dealing
with the fallout of perhaps Covid, when these
conversations starts its before a pandemic, priorities
change. So you have to have all of those things in
mind. We as ministers aren't just dealing with one
organisation.
Even I, as Secretary of State, was dealing with
about to be 30 or 40 different bodies and that's
‘something that would have an impact in terms of the
priorities of the Post Office, and this also alludes to
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the final point which I was making: that the nature of
this organisation sitting in the public sector throws up
all sorts of issues which you just wouldn't have in the
private sector. And that's what ~ you know, the
questions you're asking are in that vein, they're
showing up what some of these tensions are.
In fact, the strategic direction that you asked
Mr Railton to take in the document that you'll find
within your pack at BB25, I note from Mr Beer's
direction to that earlier, that says at bullet point
three, the first bullet point at 3, and I'll read out
what it says, that says to Mr Railton:
“Oversee a strategic review of Post Office and
provide ministers with your conclusions.”
So by the time we've gone from 2019 to your time as
Secretary of State, to your time as Secretary of State
to May 2024, we get within your letter to Mr Railton,
who you've appointed, your general request of him that
he is to oversee a strategic review of POL, the Post
Office, and "provide ministers with your conclusions".
Now, hang on, that's 2019-24, okay, let's be
generous, just under five years where you're having to.
go to the new chair that you've appointed and say,
“Look, honestly, give this some thought", and that's
a bit more than just problems with a revolving door.
187
essentially, we know that Fujitsu have committed to
providing something by way of a contribution towards
compensation. Lastly, with Mr Patterson, he answered my
questions, which was about restorative justice, making
sure that the wider range of people that have been
affecting by this scandal, in other words family
members, he said in the positive ~ he answered my
questions positively and said that that's something that
ought to be looked into, and seemed to be approving of
the suggestion.
So we know that Fujitsu are saying, essentially,
“Weill put hand in pocket’; did they ever come to you
and say, "Secretary of State, we really mean that, what
can we do to, you know, to help and provide money?" Did
they have a meeting with you or arrange a meeting with
you.
Well, we did have meetings, I can't remember the names
of the executives who I did meet but that included the
global CEO or global Chairman, but it was -- they had
expressed that sentiment but it was I who was asking for
specifics, dates, times. I recall a meeting where
I asked if they could do something early to show
goodwill, being mindful that, if they didn't and not
knowing when the Inquiry would end, that there could be
a change of Government, the revolving door of ministers,
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That seems to be that nothing has happened since 2019.
Idisagree. Just because there is not a strategy that's
being implemented doesn't mean that no work on strategy
is taking place. But clearly there are unsatisfactory
conclusions and also, which is part of the reason why
we're having this Inquiry, the organisation itself is
bogged down in dealing with historic and current issues.
It is very hard to create a strategy for the future when
the Board itself and the organisation is dysfunctional.
It doesn't make sense to demand a strategy when the
entire financial world in which we live in has changed
So whatever strategy was worked on would not have
been something which would have been viable for the
future, which is why I, as Secretary of State, ask the
Chair, "Can you start again and look at what we can do,
given what we know now’.
Five years after, or just under five years after, the
GLO litigation was concluded
Let’s move on to Fujitsu. Now, we know that the
European Director of Fujitsu, Mr Patterson, gave
evidence before the Select Committee. I can't really
ask questions about that, they're subject to
Parliamentary privilege. He came along to this Inquiry
to give evidence and he expressed his concerns about
Fujitsu's operation within the scandal. Secondly,
158
you know, moves again, and conversations could start
from scratch.
But, in terms of them proactively offering, which
I think is what you're asking, then the answer is no.
You see the commitment they've made, and we know from
Mr Patterson — I anticipate his evidence will be that
essentially they're prepared to do something after the
close of this Inquiry: they await the report of this
Inquiry.
That's certainly the impression that I was given
Did they provide any reasons as to why they need to wait
until the close of this Inquiry?
Well, this is now recall, which may not be 100 per cent
accurate, but I think it was about making sure that it
was done properly. They seemed reluctant to start off
with making payments before the Inquiry was concluded,
not dissimilar to the reasons that officials made or
advised when we asking for some of the compensation
payments, about just wanting to make sure they do it
properly and do it at the right time, and that, they
felt, was when the Inquiry had given them an appropriate
figure of something or that they could judge what
an appropriate figure would be.
There seems to be a certain irony about Fujitsu's
operation because they continued to operate the Horizon
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system and they continued to operate other contracts of
Government, and they continued to take the Government
pound, and yet they don't appear to want to contribute
within the lifetime of this Inquiry to compensation or
indeed restorative justice in real terms, ie financial
terms?
Well, certainly that was the conversation that I had.
look at what the Government is doing with Fujitsu in
other areas completely differently because they are
different arms of Fujitsu and not everybody can deliver
on what they are doing, and simply yanking away
contracts would not necessarily be what's right for the
taxpayer or the consumer at the end. So I think we need
to look at those things quite separately. What is the
right thing to do here and does provide need to provide
compensation? I believe that's absolutely right.
Should they have done so in some form earlier? I would
have liked to have seen that but that does not preclude
them doing so in the future.
imagine that they definitely will. I know that
they've had an impact on their share price, for example,
just from that documentary being aired at the beginning
of this year. But I think we should also look at that
very separately from Fujitsu's other operations, many of
which have nothing to do with the branch that caused the
161
We asked some very specific questions about one
organisation. Are you aware of the organisation Lost
Chances for Subpostmaster Children? They're
an organisation focused on securing financial support
from Fujitsu to address the lost opportunities and
trauma they experienced as children due to the impact of
the scandal on their families?
No, I'm not aware. I know that there are many
organisations but not specifically this one
Okay. Well, Katie Downey, Rebekah Foot and Katie
Burrows from Lost Chances are sitting with me here
today. You've given evidence, just now and before
lunch, about your own personal objective to ensure you
did right by the subpostmasters, and being seen to be
right and to be doing the right thing.
Now, Mr Stein has asked some questions about the
contact you might have had with Fujitsu. Did those
conversations with Fujitsu at any time cover the trauma
and the lost opportunities experienced by the children
of subpostmasters?
No, I did not specifically speak about the children of
the subpostmasters. I simply talked about compensation
for postmasters and their families.
While in post as Secretary of State, had there been, as
far as you're aware, any discussion within Government
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Horizon issue and, of course, Fujitsu is still providing
the software which the postmasters are using, and which
they depend on.
Q._Lastly, you've only just started in your most recent
post as Leader of the Opposition. From that
perspective, do you have the opportunity to reach out to
Fujitsu and put your weight and the Conservative Party's
weight with behind engagement with Fujitsu, to encourage
them to perhaps do something perhaps sooner rather than
later?
A. Notin the way that a Secretary of State would. It has
to be the Secretary of State who does that. This is
a Government issue, not a Parliament issue.
MR STEIN: Thank you, Ms Badenoch.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
Questioned by MS PATRICK
MS PATRICK: Good afternoon, Ms Badenoch. My name is Angela
Patrick and I act for a number of subpostmasters who
were wrongly convicted and have since had their
convictions quashed and you'll be glad to hear I only
want to cover two topics with you
The first is one you've covered with Mr Stein about
‘compensation and families. Did you hear the questions
we asked the Secretary of State this morning?
A. No, no, I did not.
162
about the question of redress or restorative justice for
the families of subpostmasters?
‘A. The conversations were always about financial
compensation for subpostmasters and their families.
Q. And their families?
A. I believe so because, specifically in the context
I remember having these discussions, where
a subpostmaster had passed away, and what could be done
for the families.
Q. When you were in Government, can you recall if there was
any discussion at all about creating any specific route
or scheme to ensure redress specifically for the lost
chances and trauma experienced by children of
subpostmasters?
A. There was a conversation I recall us having about these
requests being made but I wouldn't be able to give you
anything more specific than that, I'm afraid.
Q. Thank you. Would you accept, looking back and knowing
the experiences that you had, and your objective as
Secretary of State, if the concern was really to do the
right thing and to be seen to do the right thing, can
the whole question of compensation, redress, restorative
justice, really truly be answered if those lost chances
are overlooked entirely?
A. Well, I don't think that they should be overlooked.
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I think they certainly should be considered because
compensation isn't just about financial -- i's not just
about financial loss. Reputational loss also took
place, as well as other things. But what I was not able
to do was look into specific cases of postmasters or
their families. It was about the principle of what we
were trying to do, which was to make sure that we were
being seen to be fair, being fair, and ensuring that
justice was delivered.
How justice -- what justice looks like and how it is
delivered is not always the case for ministers. It's
something that we may have a view on, but this is what
I believe the purpose of the Inquiry is, so that
everyone can see and hear and a fair conclusion is made.
Okay, and moving on, the second thing I wanted to ask
you about was to return very briefly to something you
said this morning, and you have had covered decision
making in Government on value for money, and your
correspondence with the Treasury, and the rule of law,
most latterly, with Mr Beer.
Mm.
I just want to ask you about something you said, when
you were asked this morning about what caused delay in
compensation, you referred to the Government machine.
Very briefly, what is the Government machine?
165
Government machine and the system is broken, and I think
you well find that I am actually in a minority of
opinion when I say that. And I think you'll find that
the Government does not necessarily — we have a new
Government -- does not necessarily believe so. That is
an argument that I've been making for a long time but,
as you can see, given that I'm Leader of the Opposition,
not Prime Minister and not Secretary of State, that is
not an argument that I am winning.
I think this is something that we need to examine in
and of itself. The way that we can have some reforms to
improve the system need looking at, and I hope that
that's one of the outcomes from this Inquiry.
I can just pause you there. We're here, in the whole of
this Inquiry, dealing with what's been described as one
of the biggest miscarriages of justice in modem legal
history. From your last responses to Mr Beer, I suspect
you'll accept whatever change is made to that machine,
the machine must respect the rule of law?
Absolutely. The machine must respect the rule of law
but we must also make sure that the laws are good. If
you have bad laws then the rule of law will not work out
the way people want it to. We need to make sure the
laws themselves are good and that is to the job of
legislators.
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A. Itis all of those processes, procedures, decisions,
consultations, reviews, submissions, all of those things
which need to be done to evidence decisions and all of
the people who are involved in that. It's not any
specific individual. There is, in my view, nobody who
wanted to slow down compensation. That was not the
objective of anyone. There, of course, were people who
quite rightly wanted to make sure that there was value
for money, that is something that is part of, you know,
the principles which we, as ministers and Government
officials need to make sure, we can't just do what we
like because it is not our money, the money belongs to
people
But as more and more checks and balances are
created, more and more accountability, more and more
rules and regulations, these things do have an impact
and those things do tend to slow down processes where
you just want to get people money out the door as
quickly as possible.
Q._Now, Mr Stein has also given you a rundown of the
individual ministers who came before you. If itis
believed the Government machine is broken or if it isn't
working very well, whose responsibility is it to take
the steps needed to fix it?
A. Well, there needs to be an acknowledgement that the
166
Ms PATRICK: Thank you, Ms Badenoch, nothing else from me.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Where are we now, Mr Blake?
MR BEER: In fact itis me, sir. Just Mr Henry to go.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: What about an afternoon break?
MR BEER: Could I just urge upon you to just let Mr Henry
ask his questions and then take a break, so we can then
switch the witnesses.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: All right but I'm becoming very concerned
about the time left this afternoon, Mr Beer.
Over to you, Mr Henry.
Questioned by MR HENRY
MRHENRY: Thank you, very much, sir.
{just want to go to a litle bit of your [draft]
evidence where you stated:
“I think the communication channels between myself
and UKGI should have been [and then you paused] there
should have been more information passing direct to me,
not just through Kevin, and Kevin would, of course, give
me a summary, but there were some times that we actually
ended up coming to different views on things. So we had
different views, for example, on Nick Read the CEO...”
Then it reads "but problematically, but we just"
A. "Not problematically". That's "not"
Q._ Exactly, I was going to -- "not problematically". What
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were the different views that you held to Mr Hollinrake
on Mr Read?
A. _Itwas, in terms of whether Nick Read was doing the best
that he could as CEO and I felt of the issue was less
Nick Read but more about the difficulties of running
that sort of organisation in the first place and, of
course, yes, mistakes had been made but I did not think
that Nick Read was a bad CEO. He may not have been the
right CEO, given what we know now. I don't think that
when he was appointed, that that was certainly an issue,
but I saw someone who was trying to do his best. Kevin
had a different view but we're all entitled to our
different opinions.
Q. He had a different view but, of course, you were very
clear in the course of your evidence -- and there's no
criticism at all because you had a huge portfolio —
that you delegated considerable responsibility to him,
although you were the ultimate decision maker?
A. Yes, that's right.
Q._ So therefore he had a direct and far more firsthand
grasp of the issues, would you agree, than you?
A. Not necessarily, because he gave me his full and frank
view, but I also was able to observe CEOs across a whole
number of arm’s-length bodies, which Kevin was not. So
I was also able to make a comparison, and I was also
169
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
MR BEER: Sir, that is it.
Questioned by SIR WYN WILLIAMS
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Right, there's one question I want to ask
you, Ms Badenoch, and it arises from a sentence in your
second witness statement, and it's at paragraph 38.
A. Okay.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: I don't think we need to have it on
screen because I'm just going to read the one sentence:
“The Post Office, on the other hand, is caught in
this awkward halfway house where it is given only enough
to exist in a state of permanent starvation.”
Allright? Those are, if I may say so, very
powerful words.
A. Mm.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: [fit is to continue to exist in a state
of permanent starvation, can it exist at all?
A. Yes, it can exist in that state. I don't think that
that is what is best for the Post Office but, in order
for this to change, I think what we ask the Post Office
to do and how we ask it to do it will need to change.
It may be the case that, in order to save money in the
future, a lot more needs to be given right now. But it
is also the case, as I saw when I looked at NBIT, I did
not think that what the Post Office was doing with that
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1 making a comparison to CEOs who I'd seen in the private
2 sector. But also, Kevin was looking at this very much
3 from the perspective of what was going on at the Post
4 Office at that particular time.
5 As a Secretary of State attending Cabinet and
6 looking at what other Cabinet ministers were doing,
7 talking about and dealing with, I was taking a much
8 broader view, and it is very often the case that people
9 will look at the same facts and come to very different
10 conclusions. People often witness the same events and
"1 give completely different witness statements.
12 So I do not think that it is the case that just
13 because I had delegated to Kevin, that his view must
14 have been the correct one and mine not.
15 Q. But you definitely differed on this?
16 A. On that point, yes. Not -- and, as I said, not
7 problematically because, in terms of conclusions, I did
18 not think that we were going to change very much in
19 terms of how we needed to manage the organisation. My
20 view was what Nick needed was a Chair who was a little
21 bit more hands on, and that was why we made the direct
22 appointment of Nigel Railton, so that he could provide
23 support during Nick Read’s tenure.
24 MRHENRY: Right. Well, there's no need to I go any further
25 than we have done, so I shall pause there.
4170
1 IT programme was value for money.
2 So there are things going wrong on both sides. I am
3 not sure that the way that the Post Office commissioned
4 and carried out the delivery of that IT programme was
5 done properly, which would justify the Treasury
6 believing that it shouldn't just be given more money, if
7 it is not spending it judiciously.
8 However, I do know that the way that Government
9 works in terms of providing money, those one-year
10 spending review settlements, where we decide what we're
"1 giving to education and what we're giving to the NHS.
12 making a decision about what the Post Office gets, when
13 you're deciding how much we're going to fund health, the
14 Post Office will always lose that battle. If you are
15 deciding what's going to happen to children, what's
16 going to happen to sick people, oh, and here's the Post
17 Office, the Post Office will always lose. We need to
18 find a different way of making those decisions.
19 SIRWYN WILLIAMS: Right. So can I take it that you agree
20 with that which Mr Reynolds told me this morning: that,
21 despite all its problems, it's still worth saving the
22 Post Office?
23 A. Yes, I absolutely do agree with that. The challenge is
24 where we find the money —
25 SIRWYN WILLIAMS: Yes, sure.
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A. and making sure the Government has the money to do so
is absolutely key. It's a different question entirely
but should we have a Post Office? Yes, I think it
a cultural institution that's absolutely essential for
us to keep, and I support it wholeheartedly.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Thank you very much
Well, thank you, Ms Badenoch, for giving evidence to
me -- well, I think it's all been this afternoon, albeit
it started before lunch. So thank you for taking the
time to come to the Inquiry and thank you for making two
witness statements.
THE WITNESS: Thank you, Sir Wyn.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Right. So we'll now have our break, and
can I tell everyone that my cut-off point this afternoon
has to be 5.00, so I urge counsel to agree between them
how we manage that time.
MR BEER: Thank you, sir. Mr Blake will have heard that.
3.35, please.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes, fine.
(3.23 pm)
(A short break)
(3.35 pm)
MR BLAKE: Good afternoon, sir. Can you see and hear me?
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes, I than, thank you.
MR BLAKE: Thank you very much. This afternoon we're going
173
the fifth statements, that you can see your signature on
those statements?
A. Yes, I can, Mr Blake.
Q._ Can you confirm that all of those statements are true to
the best of your knowledge and belief?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. Thank you very much. Alll of those statements, or the
ones that haven't yet been published, will be published
on the Inquiry's website.
As I've said, you have previously given evidence to
this Inquiry, and you have been called back today
principally address two issues. The first is the
current state of Horizon and the use of Horizon in
respect of actions against subpostmasters, and the
second is the issue of redress or compensation. As we
established last time, you are the Director of Fujitsu
Services Limited -- is that correct ~
Yes.
oP
-- and the Executive Vice President and Chief Executive
Officer of the Europe region?
Yes.
You joined Fujitsu, I think, in 2010; is that correct?
Yes.
prop
Thank you very much. if we could then bring on screen
your fifth statement, that's WITNO6650500. Thank you
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to hear from Mr Patterson.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes.
WILLIAM PAUL PATTERSON (sworn)
Questioned by MR BLAKE
MR BLAKE: Thank you very much. Can you give your full
name, please?
William Paul Patterson.
Mr Patterson, you have previously appeared at this
Inquiry. You have produced five witness statements, the
second and third witness statement you have already
confirmed the truth of their content but I'll just like
to address all of them at once, please. The first
witness statement, it doesn't need to be brought up on
screen, WITNO6650100, dated 28 September 2014, related
to Phase 2; the second witness statement, FUJ00126035,
dated 29 December 2022, related to Phase 3; the third
witness statement, WITNO6650300, dated 14 September
2023, relates to Phase 4; the fourth witness statement,
WITN06650400, dated 8 August 2024, relates to Phases 5
and 6; and finally, the fifth witness statement,
WITN06650500, dated 23 September 2024, relates to
Phase 7.
Can you confirm that you have copies of those in
front of you and, in respect of those which you haven't
already addressed, so that's the first, the fourth and
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very much. Could we please look at page 6 of that
statement. It's paragraph 14 I'd like to ask you about.
You say at 14:
”... Fujitsu accepts that there have been failures
to meet the standards expected.”
Can you assist us with what specifically those
failures are, so far as Fujitsu is concerned?
So I think I cover a number of the topics inside the
statement but, as I reflect on my previous evidence as
well, the prosecutory support clauses in the contract
meant that we put too much focus on the clauses in the
contract, rather than on the impacts on the
subpostmasters. I think there was a second topic for
me, which is about the support of our employees when
they flagged up concems, and my third issue was around
the whole industrialisation of witness statements, which
I thought was and we think is completely inappropriate
Page 27, paragraph 72, you've said that there is still
substantial work to be done. Is it your view that the
failings insofar as Fujitsu are concerned were
substantial?
Well, the three examples I've just given you, I think
they are substantial and they resulted, and they
contributed to, a miscarriage of justice on an enormous
scale. So, yes, I think they were substantive.
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I won't be going into the detailed evidence, we won't be
looking at the who, what, where, when, how, but it's
important to understand Fujitsu's corporate position on
what it accepts. I just want to see, in respect of
three propositions: the first is, does Fujitsu accept
that it provided a witness or witnesses in criminal
proceedings who provided evidence that was, at
a minimum, incomplete or otherwise should not have been
relied upon?
So I'm not a lawyer, Mr Blake. So my reading of the
evidence and what was submitted, I think, they were
exactly as you just described.
Thank you. Second of all, does Fujitsu accept that it
provided audit data, ARQ data, that was at certain
points also unreliable?
Yes.
Third, does Fujitsu accept that there have been
occasions in the context of enforcement action against
subpostmasters, where information that was provided by
Fujitsu was unreliable, inaccurate or otherwise
incomplete?
So I don't know about all the cases. I'm not familiar
with all the cases and where witness statements were
given. But I think there is a general theme which is
that they were -- and I seem to recall in evidence,
477
12 months. Unexplained discrepancies, 57 per cent of
those who responded said that they had experienced
unexplained discrepancies with Horizon in the past
12 months; we have there unexplained transactions,
19 per cent; missing transactions, 14 per cent; double
entry of transactions, 10 per cent.
Do you have any reason to doubt those figures or
experiences of the subpostmasters?
‘So when I look at this report and I had my team try and
decode it, my concern is the term "Horizon" is being
used to cover everything inside the Post Office's
complete supply chain. So if you are a subpostmaster,
this is exactly the view you would get because you would
look on your screen and these are some of the problems
or discrepancies or issues that they are experiencing.
So it is absolutely correct from their experience. But
screen freezes could be caused by multiple things
The Post Office has its network provided by a third
party. Issues with PIN Pads have nothing to do with the
Horizon system, they are provided for and maintained by
another organisation. And when I listened to Melanie
Park's, I think, evidence around discrepancies and
innocence, actually, in some cases, innocent double
keying, or whatever, all of that told me that these
things need to be properly investigated, not to rely on
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witness statements being edited and being adjusted by
Post Office lawyers. So I think there was a number of
those areas where they were inaccurate, incomplete, yes.
Thank you. Moving on then to the current position and
operation of Horizon, can we bring up the expert report
from YouGov EXPG0000007, can we please turn to page 17.
‘As you're aware, this YouGov report is based on
responses from approaching 1,000 current subpostmasters.
Have you read this report?
Yes, I have.
Looking at page 17, we saw there that the net
dissatisfaction in respect of how Horizon currently
operates is a clear majority as between those
dissatisfied and those satisfied. We have 49 per cent
net dissatisfied. If we could turn over the page,
please. It says there the vast majority, that's 92 per
cent of subpostmasters surveyed, reported experiencing
some form of issues with the Horizon IT system in the
last 12 months. It gives an example, if we scroll down,
of an open-ended comment:
"In my opinion Horizon is still flawed. I regularly
have unexplained discrepancies often altering daily or
manifesting at balance.”
If we scroll over the page, we have the list there
at figure 8 of issues experienced within the last
178
a very narrow definition of Horizon or very narrow
definition of where a problem would be.
Do you think that the system that is provided by Fujitsu
could be, at least in some part, to explain for those
unexplained discrepancies, unexplained transactions,
missing transactions?
So Fujitsu has been clear all the way along: there
continues to be bugs, errors and defects; there
continues to be end of life. This application, the
Horizon application, as I think was covered in the
witness statement earlier today is end of life. It was
meant to be end of life some years ago and a new system
was meant to be in play. So all of those things are
correct and could be or could not be causing those
problems, which again is why I made point a moment ago,
any accusation to a subpostmaster needs to be properly
investigated and not rely on one data point.
Perhaps we can see your reflections in respect of the
end of life situation. Could we please turn to
FUJ00243299, please. It's correspondence that the
Inquiry has seen from 15 December 2023, to Mr Brocklesby
and it relates to the extension of the contract. 1'll
just read to you a few passages. At paragraph 1 there
if we scroll down, it says:
“The risks associated with the continued provision
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of the Horizon system (including the audit archive) on
end-of-life IT infrastructure. Understandably, Post
Office has historically been strategically focused on
alternative solutions to Horizon rather than investing
in the existing infrastructure. Due to the age and
consequent end of service life status of the
underpinning Horizon infrastructure there is
an increasing risk of failure of the infrastructure that
could result in adverse impact in the delivery of
services to the public."
Is that one of the points that you were just making,
that, as time goes on, the end of life status means that
there is an increasing risk of failure?
There is an enormous increase in risk. The Post Office
have rightly been focused on their other suppliers and
building their new system and the Horizon application
was meant to be retired so they put their efforts and
focus, understandably, into the new world and not into
the old world. To give this some context, we have not
tured off some of this equipment because it is so old
Another challenge to the feasibility and continued
delivery of the Horizon system, number 2, is:
“The technical complexity and risk associated with
(i) updating infrastructure at various states of
obsolescence and compatibility, and (ii) delivering new
181
there's only one passage that I'd like to draw your
attention to. It says there:
“As the Post Office is well aware, there have been
and there continued to be bugs, errors and defects in
the Horizon system. Further, [Fujitsu] currently has,
and previously had, access to branch transaction
records."
Two points you're highlighting there: one is bugs,
errors and defects and the other is what has come to be
known as remote access; is that correct?
Yes.
Thank you. Could we please then turn to FUJ00243303.
A further letter of 23 August. This one is to
an investigator at the City of London Police. If we
could scroll down the first page, please. Under (a), it
says:
“As discussed, the Horizon system has had and
continues to have bugs, errors and defects, some of
which may not have been detected at this time.”
So not only an acceptance that the current system
has bugs, errors and defects but also there are
effectively unknown unknowns?
Yes, but I think the second sentence is also important,
which is the Horizon application is fed from other
third-party systems and business processes. So as well
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system requirements, including because of lessons
learned and commitments to end users. These activities
are increasingly risky and technically challenging given
the End of Service Life Horizon system noted in
paragraph 1 ..."
So those are the challenges in respect of making
changes to the Horizon system going forward?
Yes, and, as I mentioned a moment ago, the Horizon
application is one of many applications which are all
interconnected inside the Post Office's supply chain.
When you change one part, you need to make sure that it
connects with Credence, with POLSAP, with all the other
systems that the Post Office uses directly, and with
other third parties. When something is this old, and
you make that change, it has consequential impacts on
all of those other systems, which you need to be super
careful about,
We're going to look at some of the correspondence
between yourself and the Post Office, Mr Read (sic), in
due course, but could we just quickly go through a few
of those letters, a few lines in a few of those letters.
If we start with FUJ00243204, it's a letter that we've
already seen in great depth of 8 July 2024 between
yourself and Nick Read. As I said, we'll come to the
context of these letters but, if you scroll down,
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as Horizon may well have unknown, I cannot attest to the
validity or performance of those other systems
Thank you very much. That letter can come down, and
we'll retum to it shortly. Are we to understand from
that correspondence and from your evidence that there
are currently reliability issues with the Horizon
system?
So the Horizon system, as far as I understand today, is
performing to its contractual performance levels in
terms of its SLAs. If I —last week, I got an update
‘on where we are with bugs, errors and defects. There
are currently 16, and we have patches, which is the
technical term for the fixes cited to go in in February,
after the Christmas peak. So I think there is good
understanding of where there are bugs, errors and
defects, and a process, which is well communicated with
the Post Office. There is a weekly session with the
Post Office, and we're told they communicate that to the
subpostmasters.
But there will continue to be, Mr Blake, with
changes and with age, bugs, errors and defects that may
well arise.
Does the system that Fujitsu provides operate in
a way -- and I'm going to use the language of a letter
from Ernst & Young that we saw in Phase 2 of this
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Inquiry, it's a 1999 letter ~- does it operate in a way
that would allow subpostmasters to produce their
accounts to a suitable degree of integrity?
A. I couldn't answer that question.
Q._Do you consider it to be sufficiently reliable for
subpostmasters to produce their accounts?
A. So Mr Blake you're asking me to comment on audit and
accounting processes, which I don't have any
professional understanding of. What I can say is that
the system today performs to the SLAs that the Post
Office require us to do — to perform to. I can't
comment on whether that document that's produced at the
back and what its contents or whether it's appropriate
for them to legally sign off. That would be massively
overstepping my capability.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Sorry, Mr Patterson, I've forgotten what
"SLA" stands for.
A. Forgive me, service level agreements.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Sorry, yes. Fine.
MR BLAKE: Subpostmasters up and down the country use
a system where the fundamentals are provided by Fujitsu
That system, as far as you are aware, is it sufficient
to produce reliable accounts?
A. So I think in all the evidence we've seen and all the
Inquiry have seen, the reporting that comes out of
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Q. MrPatterson --
It's very clear ~ forgive me, it's very clear, in all
>
the evidence in this Inquiry, that there is level of
unreliability, an unreliability, I've said at the start
of this particular evidence, around bugs, errors and
defects, and the whole end-to-end. Horizon in some
respects represents the end-to-end of what goes on
inside a subpostmaster's branch and what happens in the
Post Office, Head Office. So for me to sit here and say
I think there's enough in that documentation to allow
HMRC or an accountant to sign off, I'm not qualified to
answer that and neither are my colleagues.
Q. MrPatterson, you are presumably somebody who goes up
and down the country bidding for contracts. If you are
selling Horizon as a new system, would you be able to
tell the person who you are selling that system to that,
at the end of the day, the accounts that it produces are
reliable?
A. So we do not sell this system. This system is end of
life. At the Public Accounts Committee, when I gave
evidence, this is not a product that we've ever sold to
another customer. It is bespoke to the Post Office and
itis bespoke to the Post Office's requirements. So
again, I would ask ~ that would be a question I would
be asking the Post Office: is the documentation and the
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Horizon, whether it's appropriate or not, may have bugs,
errors and defects, may have been fed bugs, errors and
defects, may not be reflecting the accuracy of what's
gone on in the Post Office ~ in the subpostmaster’s
branch. Whether the ~- what is the document that's
required by the Post Office signed off by the
subpostmaster, I have no idea.
Not the Post Office; I mean the taxman, for example.
Ihave no idea, Mr Blake. I've never seen one of those
documents about what would be presented to an accountant
or to the HMRC. Is it~ I don't believe it's in my
evidence.
Are you confident, for example, that somebody could come
to the Inquiry from Fujitsu, and say, where you're
sitting, that, as somebody who operates Horizon -- and
of course individual cases have to be taken on their own
basis and their own facts - but as somebody who
operates Horizon, the system, so far as they are
concemed, is reliable for accounting purposes?
Mr Blake, again, I'm going to answer it, I don't know.
If that question was being posed, I would expect the
Post Office to be sitting here, as well, as well as the
engineers on our side, to determine whether the
information required is appropriate to be able to sign
those things off.
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material that comes out of it reflecting what is
required?
Can you see how that is an issue if you're —
Ido.
~a current subpostmaster who operates that system, who
produces accounts, who relies on the system day in, day
out, that the head of the company in Europe who produces
that system can't say that what's coming out of it is
reliable?
So I'l give you a slightly different example. If in
a cash pouch a subpostmaster inadvertently puts in two
extra zeros and that cash pouch gets to the other end of
the line and doesn't have those two extra zeros of
money, that's a discrepancy. Horizon has just reported
what was keyed in on one end and what was counted on the
other end. Forgive me, do I then say that the Horizon
system its accurate? Well, in that example, I can't say
that because I don't know what's gone on.
Are we again repeating the words “user error"?
No, far from it. I use that as an example. Please
forgive me, Mr Blake, please forgive me, I am very
respectful for the subpostmasters and what they've gone
through, but you're —
What I'm asking about is not the individual user making
an error. I'm purely asking about the system that you
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provide?
Well, I'll take it away from being the user. Does the
POLSAP system feed into the Horizon system correctly?
I don't know the answer to that.
That's a third-party system?
But Horizon reflects all of that, and that's the
transactions, in fairness to the subpostmaster, that he
or she are representing, which is why we've been
consistent, since the very start of the Inquiry that
there have been bugs, errors and defects, there will
continue to be unreliability in the front end, and in
the rest of the supply chain, I do not know the answer
to that, which is why, when we get to the next set of
questions, we've been so keen to make sure that
investigations take in the entire system and don't rely
on a very narrow point of view.
Let's move to that correspondence's. If we start with
FUJ00243157. If we start, please, on page 4. Thank
you. This is an email exchange that you'll be familiar
with, the Inquiry is familiar with it. It relates to
a City of London Police investigation in April this
year. Simon Oldnall of the Post Office says:
"Can I ask that you help with any conversations that
City of London Police need to have with Fujitsu Services
Limited.”
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a trilateral conversation with Fujitsu, Post Office and
City of London Police.
“itis impossible to overstate how important this,
is. I need to advise both the police and the Post
Office as to evidentially established reliability or not
of data that is being used every day in establishing
outcomes with post masters and potentially to be
presented to the criminal justice system by the police
and the three public prosecuting agencies. The
non-provision of relevant witness statements from the
Post Office and Fujitsu will rightly be interpreted by
the police and prosecutors as Post Office and Fujitsu
not having faith in the reliability of the data with the
obvious outcome resulting.”
If we go on to page 1, please. We see there the
response from the solicitor at Fujitsu's Legal Team
saying:
"Please refer any correspondence to me rather than
Mr Walton.
“I note your comments, which aren't accepted
“Itis not appropriate for Fujitsu to discuss with
Post Office the nature and substance of its cooperation
with an ongoing police investigation.”
If we scroll up to the top, we have there
Mr Bartlett's response.
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If we scroll over the page, please, to page 3, the
response from Mr Walton of Fujitsu, is:
“As this is a legal matter, [Fujitsu Legal] are
‘communicating with the City of London Police. I am not
involved in those communications, and in any event,
[Fujitsu] considers it to be inappropriate for Post
Office and [Fujitsu] to be discussing a police
investigation.”
If we go to page 2, please. If we scroll down, we
can see, this is an email we saw with Mr Bartlett, he
says:
{City of London Police] has informed us that they
have not had any, in information or contact with Fujitsu
after the single exploratory and inconclusive
conversation. They left that conversation with the
feeling that they were indirectly being told that the
Horizon system was unreliable and so the case could not
progress. We really need to explore this as this is not
the nuanced impression Simon Oldnall has given me.
“As the potential victim in this case, the Post
Office would be grateful if you could provide me with
contact details for either the equivalent person in
Fujitsu to my role or an appropriate person in your
Legal Team. I will then pass those details on to the
City of London Police who are looking to have
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"We have had a call with City of London Police
following your email below and they will be in touch
with you again to arrange the taking of a witness
statement or statements. We would be grateful for
Fujitsu to extend any and all assistance to [City of
London Police City] to aid their objective understanding
and assessment as to the reliability of the Horizon
system and the admissibility of evidence produced from
it relating to the investigation they are conducting
following {Post Office] making a crime report to them as
a potential victim.”
As we have seen, that then sparks a number of
letters between yourself and Mr Read. I will take them
as quickly as we can. If we start, please, at
FUJ00243199. We have there the letter of 17 May, where
in the first paragraph, you explain the serious
concems. You say:
"To be clear, Fujitsu will not support the Post
Office to act against postmasters. We will not provide
the support for any enforcement actions, taken by the
Post Office against post masters, whether civil or
criminal, for alleged shortfalls, fraud or false
accounting.”
Then you address each one of them. "Criminal
investigations", you refer to that City of London Police
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investigation, and you say:
“The approach of Fujitsu is to cooperate with the
police and any other third party, exercising independent
investigative, prosecutorial, regulatory or judicial
powers, However, we are concerned by the behaviour of
the Post Office Investigation Team on this matter."
You address the concern there relating to, for
example, reference to the Post Office being a victim —
Mm.
-- and that's something we have already addressed.
The second in relation to the "Pursuit of shortfalls
from subpostmasters”, you say:
“It seems that the Post Office may be continuing to
pursue postmasters for shortfalls in their accounts. We
would have expected that the Post Office has changed its
behaviour. It should not essentially be relying on
Horizon data as the basis for that enforcement.”
You then address the issue of redress and say that
you will continue to provide data in relation to
redress.
Sorry, before I get to a question, I'll just quickly
take you through two more letters, the first is
FUJ00243201. This is the response from Mr Read ~- thank
you very much. At the bottom of the page, he reassures
you that the Post Office won't be undertaking their own
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“Post Office sees reliance on Horizon data as
essential to supporting postmasters with understanding
and remediating discrepancies
“Post Office relies on Fujitsu and the services it
provides to ensure that it can continue to support,
postmasters in that way.”
Then, finally, he addresses the same topic: redress.
The final document before I ask the question is at
FUJ00243204. This is your response of 8 July. I'l
take that slightly more slowly. If we scroll down,
please, you say there:
“In simple terms, the Post Office is requesting that
Fujitsu give expert opinion evidence to be used in
criminal proceedings against post masters and post office
workers."
You say:
“In your letter, you rightly note that the content
of any witness statement is a matter between the police
and [Fujitsu]. However, I consider it necessary to
address this issue with you because the request was made
by Post Office and because I consider the request to be
entirely inappropriate, particularly in the light of the
evidence being uncovered at the Inquiry.
“Lenclose with this letter an email chain", and you
refer to that email chain that we saw.
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prosecutions. He explains, over the page, please, that:
"Post Office requests the use of Horizon data for
a number of day-to-day business reasons, including
supporting postmasters with their branches. In terms of
enforcement, the Post Office's requests only relate to
cases where our teams are supporting criminal
investigations or prosecutions pursued by independent
third parties."
He says:
“In response to the specific case you raised,
potential criminal activities were identified in the
branch and Post Office therefore reported the matter to
the police. We have assisted with the police's
investigation, including providing supporting data ..
He says:
“Naturally, it is vital for the police's
investigation that it can rely on the Horizon data it
has received.”
In respect of shortfalls, he says that
“Horizon data isn't currently being used but the
Post Office data for a range of key day-to-day business
activities, including supporting its postmasters with
resolving discrepancies on their accounts", is necessary
to have your assistance.
If we go over the page, please. He says there:
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Then you say:
“A witness statement from [Fujitsu] attesting to the
reliability of the Horizon system, and of data from it
in criminal proceedings would amount to expert opinion
evidence. [Fujitsu] is incapable of providing expert
opinion evidence, as it is neither independent nor has
it sufficient information to provide such an opinion.”
Now, you're not a lawyer and I'm not asking you for
a legal answer to this question but why do you
understand Fujitsu couldn't provide a witness statement,
not purporting to be an independent witness statement,
not purporting to be an independent expert, but just
simply evidence of the personal experience of the author
in respect of the reliability, with whatever caveats it
may require?
So first of all, we are actively supporting the police
in their enquiries. There's evidence, I think, in the
pack, in the bundle, of the comprehensive set of
correspondence with the police, drawing their attention
to a number of areas directly from this Inquiry.
Awitness statement from us on what comes out of the
Horizon application is still a problem to us, for
exactly the reasons I said earlier, because the Horizon
system is one lens on the entire supply chain in the
Post Office, and we can't attest to everything that goes
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on in that, from left to right
My other concern about the email from Mr Bartlett
was just trying to narrow things down. So what I've —
as Ive tried to pay close attention to this Inquiry,
one of the topics that came up was people flagging
things, did executives flag things; were we being
transparent; were we being curious? This is Fujitsu
trying to be very transparent, very curious, around what
has gone on and what is going on day-to-day. So that
was why we didn't feel like we could give a witness
statement, but the material that we have given to the
police at the moment -- and I don't know the state of
those cases -- may still require us to give that in due
course, Mr Blake, but at this point in time, we felt we
couldn't.
In the email chain, it explained from the Post Office's
perspective that they considered that the police had
been given the impression that the system was
unreliable.
Mm-hm.
That may, in fact, be consistent with the evidence that
you've given to the Inquiry today. Butis there not
some way in which Fujitsu could provide a statement that
at least speaks about its own system that it operates,
subject to the caveats of the third parties, that goes
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everything was silent to us, and then suddenly we get
these two requests, which made us very suspicious, very
curious, hence why I wrote to Mr Read.
The next paragraph, I think I may have referred you to
this already, it says:
“As the Post Office is well aware, there have been
and there continue to be bugs, errors and defects in the
Horizon system. Further, [Fujitsu] currently has and
previously had, access to branch transaction records."
You also say:
“In addition to [Fujitsu] the Horizon system is
reliant on services by Post Office and third parties
retained by the Post Office."
That's the point you've also made today,
Mm.
If we scroll over the page, please. It says:
“Based on the evidence which has been seen and heard
in the Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry, Fujitsu considers
that all of the matters management above would need to
be investigated carefully by the Post Office and the
police, with the assistance of an independent technical
IT expert, and possibly also a forensic accounting
expert, to ascertain proper explanations for branch
account discrepancies. Fujitsu considers that only
after such an investigation has been undertaken could
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to, in some way, reassure the police in respect of the
current reliability of the system?
So again, what I've learnt -- what I've learnt and what
‘our company has leamt from the Inquiry in its earlier
stages is, it just is very narrow, containing questions,
“was this correct at this point in time from 9.00 to
4.00?" We feel that is completely inappropriate and
I think the evidence during this Inquiry suggests that
is also inappropriate. You need to take a holistic view
and, in fairness to the subpostmasters, that's what they
need as well: they need to see the whole system that
they're engaging with, not just a window which is
Horizon, but all the other parts of the components.
It is impossible for Fujitsu, even with all those
caveats. The other thing I've learnt about caveats is
nobody reads them and people only then pick out the
paragraph that they want to pick out, and that was one
of your first questions to me. So that is why we felt
we couldn't,
Now, evidence may well transpire, you know, there's
a number of other cases going through. I think there's
33 prosecutions which the police are looking into at the
moment. We are only aware of four. So, again, this
point of transparency ~- and we were aware of none
before January/February, when we got that email. So
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a meaningful expert witness statement be made in
subsequent criminal proceedings, which addresses the
reliability of the Horizon system and the relevant data
produced. For the reasons I have mentioned above,
[Fujitsu] cannot provide such a statement.”
Putting a statement to one side, what about
an independent investigation into the reliability of the
system? We've heard evidence that the Post Office are
looking for some sort of independent statement from
an IT expert. In respect of their investigation, do you
commit to fully cooperating, opening up your books, your
warehouses, your data, to an expert for that purpose?
I think anything that helps the subpostmasters in the
entire end-to-end be confident about the systems that
they are using, I welcome, Fujitsu would welcome, yeah.
Ihave no problem with that at all
In respect of opening up your books to that expert, so
they can work out for themselves the reliability of the
system?
Indeed. And I think, you know, back to the earlier
‘comment: this is a complex environment, which is, in
parts, 25 years old, and we are applying today's, you
know, computing standards to some of those things. So
I think it would be difficult, hence why the system is
end of life, hence why it should not be being extended,
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hence why it should have been replaced.
So I have no problem at all in opening up to any
analysis that a third party would wish to do.
Has Fujitsu had an independent company report on the
current reliability of the Horizon system?
Now, I don't know the answer to that. I don't know the
answer to that, Mr Blake.
We've seen some evidence, for example, back in 2012,
that Fujitsu were going to obtain a KPMG report.
I think it was stopped in light of the Second Sight
Report. Is that your understanding or do you have
a different understanding?
I don't have much understanding. I saw that document in
my bundle and I don't have an opinion why it was stopped
or didn't go ahead. I read the email traffic, and --
Focusing on the present, though, people may be
interested in why the burden is being placed on the Post
Office to obtain that independent report, why it is that
Fujitsu themselves, in the time that's been available,
haven't commissioned an external investigation into the
reliability of a system that they produce?
So I think again it's about we're expanding what the
system is, and our definition of what the Horizon
application is. There are multiple things in this,
supply chain which Horizon touches or is fed with.
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evidence.”
If we scroll over, he then says in that top
paragraph, about halfway through, he says:
“The police have raised questions regarding the data
and the Horizon system, and the AC&I [I think it’s A&CI]
team referred the police to [Fujitsu] - as Post
Office's provider of the system -- to obtain answers to
those questions. The feedback they received in April
2024 was that police had only been able to have one
conversation with [Fujitsu] at that time and the
investigation officer's impression from the conversation
was that they were indirectly being told by [Fujitsu]
that the Horizon system was unreliable. As a result,
the police told the team that the investigation could
not progress.
“In light of that feedback from the police,
Mr Bartlett sent the email..."
He's explaining the background to the email and why
it was sent:
[He's] not asking Fujitsu to act as an independent
expert witness in this case. He asks that [Fujitsu]
engage with the police and provide a statement when
requested to do so by the police, regarding the
reliability of the data, which was informing the
police's investigation. I understand from your previous
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I think it's right and proper that the whole system
end-to-end is examined, not just the Horizon
application, which is — and whether we should be partly
funding that or doing it, I think that's perfectly
sensible for us to have that conversation with the Post
Office. Why we haven't done that in the past, well,
frankly, it's been end of life. We're not meant to be
maintaining this system and, in fact, we have not been
doing any material investment in it, or the Post Office
haven't, for several years. And I'm sure we'll come on
to that question in a moment.
Ill take you to how this correspondence with the Post
Office ends, and we can start with FUJ00243209.
A23 July 2024 response from Owen Woodley, I won't go
into the detail. If we scroll down he says he shares
your commitment, the Post Office has unquestionably
changed its mindset. Post Office will never again take
a prosecutorial role. He addresses the question of
expert evidence, he says:
“As you rightly say, Fujitsu is not able to provide
‘expert opinion evidence and it is not sufficiently
independent for any statements that it may provide to be
deemed expert evidence by the Crown Prosecution Service.
Post Office is aware that it has not and would not
request that [Fujitsu] provides expert opinion
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correspondence that Fujitsu has confirmed it will engage
further with the police in this matter."
He then goes on to address criminal investigations
and prosecutions. If we go over the page, please, he
says:
“To get the right checks and balances in any of
these investigations processes, data will be required
from the Horizon system, along with analysis of any
known bugs, errors or defects.”
He then addresses the victim point. He moves on to
postmaster shortfalls:
“Thank you for confirming [Fujitsu] will continue to
deliver its contractual obligations, including reporting
promptly and transparently on branch impacting
incidents.
“While the Post Office does not currently take civil
recovery action to recover established losses from
postmasters, this may be necessary in future to
establish a fair, transparent and consistent approach to
recoveries.”
So he's referring there to potential actions to
recover apparent shortfalls.
A. Mm-hm.
Q. He says:
“welcome your commitment that [Fujitsu] will work
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The Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry 11 November 2024
collaboratively with Post Office over the coming months
so that together we can achieve the best outcome for the
postmasters and your offer to work collaboratively on
the future of the Horizon system is much appreciated."
We then turn to your response. It's FUJ00243211.
It's a response dated 26 July this year, and you
say:
“It is unfortunate that Nick [Nick Read] was not
able to attend the meeting as discussed. The original
purpose of writing to Nick was to escalate, CEO to CEO,
the concerns relating to certain behaviours within the
Post Office. It seems clear that the Post Office
continues to have significant cultural issues, sees
itself as the ‘victim’, with the enforcement and
prosecution of postmasters considered as business as
usual activity of a commercial retail company. As
I stated in my correspondence to Nick and during our
discussion, Fujitsu finds the language and the suggested
behaviour unacceptable from Post Office Investigators.
“I do not intend to engage further with the Post
Office on the matters I raised. We completely trust in
Sir Wyn and the Inquiry process, which will examine the
extent of the Post Office's change in Phase 7."
It might be suggested that that is a rather petulant
response to a serious letter from the Post Office. What
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What about that second paragraph there:
I do not intend to engage further with the Post
Office on the matters I raised."
I mean, why was it this summer you couldn't say to
the Post Office, "Of course we'll supply to the police
whatever witness statements they ask for"?
So in our statement to the Select Committee in 2020, we
made it clear in that we will continue to support the
police in their investigations. It's in my corporate
statement here, I think on the back paragraphs, we will
continue to support the police in any investigations.
I felt, having -- there's been a number of changes in
the Executive Team in the Post Office. I met Nick early
on when we were both appointed. I've now met
Mr Woodley, I've now met their new Acting CEOs as well.
And one of my other concerns, as you will have seen in
my notes, was just about the continuity of that
understanding about how serious Fujitsu takes for his
matter. And, therefore, I wasn't going to engage any
further with the Post Office but would with the police.
Does that, in some way, signify a quite serious
breakdown in the relationship between Fujitsu and the
Post Office?
So operationally, we are very well engaged, and
delivering against our contract to the Post Office.
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is your view on that?
A. It's not petulant at all, and I also heard the term
being used, it was schoolboy playground things. I take
all of this matter personally really, really seriously.
So seriously, which is why I wrote to Nick Read because,
as I said earlier, I've leamt in the evidence in this
Inquiry too much -- or lack of transparency, lack of
clarity, lack of curiosity, on a very, very complex set
of material and environments. So it's not petulant at
all
I felt it was really serious, particularly when I'm
contacted as a company by the police, accusing
subpostmasters of very serious offences and, given what
Ihave heard in this Inquiry, I felt it was really
important that I lay out clearly that we will not be
supporting the Post Office.
However, Mr Blake, we are actively supporting the
police in those inquiries, and I know it has also come
up in this Inquiry whether we are or not. I think
you've seen some of the material. They are very
‘comprehensive. I saw some material this morning also on
this very matter with the police. So we are actively
supporting the police, and sharing with them all the
material that we've got, as well as the material
obviously from this Inquiry.
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I -- on Friday evening, I spoke to two executives from
the Post Office about their request on an extension. So
we continue to focus on the day to day and what needs to
be done. But on this particular matter about
prosecutions, I will not engage with the Post Office —
we will not engage with the Post Office on it.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Right. I understand that, Mr Patterson.
Let me just ask you this: as we are talking to each
other now, how many, if not exactly, approximately,
cases are you ~ and I'm using these words completely
neutrally ~ having correspondence or discussions with
the police?
A. Four.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Four, right. In those four cases, to the
best of your knowledge and belief, has Fujitsu answered
the questions or tried to answer the questions that the
police have posed to them?
A. Yes, Sir Wyn. In fact, one of the documents was
33 pages laying out the answers to those questions.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Hang on. That's fine. In those four
cases, if the police has asked for documentary material,
has it been provided?
A. Yes.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: If the police have asked for data from
Horizon, has that been provided?
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No, I don't know whether they have asked for that yet,
Sir Wyn.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: If they haven't, that's fine. But --
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But if they do, absolutely.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Right. In any of the cases to date, has.
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the police asked Fujitsu to nominate a person to make
a witness statement?
I don't believe so.
‘SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Right. So far as you are aware, if the
A
police made such a request of Fujitsu, would you at
least try to find a person who could make a witness
statement?
Absolutely, Sir Wyn. Absolutely.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Right. Fine. Okay. So that's the
current position.
Right, back to you, Mr Blake.
MR BLAKE: Thank you very much, sir.
We'll move on, then, to the extension of the
contract. Could we bring back onto screen your fifth
witness statement at page 30, please. It's
paragraph 77. Page 30, paragraph 77. You say there:
“As noted above, the Horizon contract is due to end
on 31 March 2025. However, in the event that it is not
possible, Fujitsu is currently discussing with [the Post
Office] (at its request) the potential for a short-term
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under the Post Office's control and, in fact, when I was
talking to Mr Railton a few weeks ago, it was very
important to him. So I think, actually, that Post
Office, by early February, will have all of the data
inside their own control to support any investigations
that they wish to do.
In respect of matters after February, so let's say in
a year's time, there needs to be an investigation into
a shortfall, is that something that you will be
assisting the Post Office on or not?
Yes, I would expect those types of operational
engagements to continue, and I think they are quite
different in tone to Court Case Support Services and my
very earlier comment around the industrialisation of
witness statements.
Thank you. We've seen in other documents discussion of
potentially a five-year extension, five more years of
Horizon. Would it be possible, in light of what you've
said, to improve the reliability of Horizon data over
that time or do you anticipate that in fact it may get
worse over that time?
So the first correspondence, I think, was December, with
the request for five years. In my meeting with the
acting CEO at the time, Owen Woodley, I think the
request was two years. We've had the request for three
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extension) which [Post Office] envisages to be
approximately two years) to facilitate an orderly exit
and transition to occur. In light of the evidence that
has emerged in the Inquiry in relation to [the Post
Office's] conduct and culture, and the challenges that
Fujitsu has faced with regard to visibility over {the
Post Office's] use of Horizon data and/or records,
Fujitsu's position will be that any extension to the
Horizon Contract should necessarily see the removal of
the Court Case Support Services provisions."
Can you assist us with what you mean by the Court
Case Services provisions?
So I don't have alll the clauses in my head but there is
a set of responsibilities placed on Fujitsu, back when
this contract was agreed in 1999, which had a number of
activities and responsibilities. Fujitsu will not sign
any extension if those conditions are still in the
contract.
Are you able to assist us with whether Fujitsu will be
able to assist the Post Office in respect of the
investigations of shortfalls, putting aside historic
criminal matters, in respect of current shortfalls
experienced by postmasters?
So I think I also say in here somewhere about the ARQ
data is moving, so that all the historical data will be
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years, and this morning, as I walked into this building,
I had another request, which was for four years.
So this continues to move around in terms of what
the requirements are from the Post Office. I am
encouraged by the new leaders who seem to be getting
more understanding and clarity around what the actual
business requirements from -- from the Horizon system
will be but, to your question, I am very worried about
it. And, in fact, my correspondence and my commentary
to them as well is it needs to be the shortest possible
time entirely, because this system is not meant to be
continuing and it’s not had any material investment in
the last four years, while the attention has been on
NBIT or versions of NBIT.
My earlier comment also around Horizon is one
part ~- this application is one part of an incomplete
supply chain and, in fairness to the Post Office, that
means it's got to have multiple tests of all their other
systems as well. So if you change one part, you have to
test everything else. So I think it's very, very
difficult to know whether three years, four years or
five years will be required -- will be possible, to your
question.
Thank you. I want to look at current use of Horizon
data. If we could bring back onto screen your witness
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statement, WITNO6650500, page 25, paragraph 66.
Thank you, it's the bottom of page 25.
You say there:
“Fujitsu continues to provide the Post Office with
Horizon data, including ARQ data, when requested as part
Of its provision of services related to the Horizon
system.”
Over the page, please.
“While Fujitsu has informed the Post Office that it
will not provide support for enforcement actions taken
against postmasters, whether civil or criminal, Fujitsu,
has as a result to verify the purpose to which the Post
Office intends to put this data, or what the data is in
fact used for.”
Can you assist us with what you mean by “struggled
to verify the purpose"?
So I think it came up in some of the Post Office
Executive's evidence as well. So one of the things that
we are very concerned about, again, this narrow use of
information, is information being requested and used
for -- in the concern here, for prosecutions. And what
we are asking for and what we did on a very simple form,
which is an ARQ form, is could you tick a box to say is
it used for redress or management information, or for
prosecution? And the Post Office felt that was
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So they are provided with two options: one
presumably is one that you have absolutely no issue
with: the second one, providing information in relation
to redress?
Correct.
In respect of the first, what is the position, if I were
to tick "Yes"?
So the Post Office have not accepted the change in the
form, is my understanding. So we are still reverting to
the old ways.
There is another option, at least one more option, isn't
there, that the Post Office might need the data to
assist a subpostmaster in understanding and discussing
their current shortfalls; is that something that is
missing in this mandatory section?
So that would be, wouldn't it? Yes, I'd agree with you
on that.
There has been, we've seen in an email chain, a dispute
between the Post Office and Fujitsu in respect of this
new form. Can we please turn to FUJ00243233. If we
start on page 4, please, the bottom of page 3 and into
page 4., you have somebody from the Remediation Team,
If we scroll down, we can see their name. It says as
follows:
“Please find attached an updated ARQ request tracker
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inappropriate and didn't accept that change, but that
was the reason for the change.
If go back to what Fujitsu has learnt through this.
Inquiry, it's that curiosity topic again, you know, what
is the data being used for, rather than just handing
over the data without any context to it?
Perhaps we could bring onto screen the forms, the new
form and the old form, FUJ00243213, and, ifit's
possible to bring that on screen alongside FUJ00243227.
Is this the ARQ form you were referring to?
Yes, I think it is. I think itis, yes.
If we have a look at the one now on the left-hand side
there are two additional questions there that are said
to be mandatory. First asks:
“Is this request related to either the investigation
of or action being taken or intended to be taken by the
Post Office against a postmaster or Post Office worker
in connection with potential fraud, theft, breach of
contract or any other potential impropriety which is
suspected to have occurred at the relevant Post Office
branches?”
The second is.
“Will this information be used to support either
a postmaster or a Post Office worker to achieve
financial redress?"
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with a brief summary of all previous and new request(s)
since our last ARQ Requests."
If we scroll up we can see a response, at the bottom
of page 3. Thank you. The response there from Fujitsu
is:
“Thank you for your recent request. Unfortunately,
as it is not on the latest template, we are unable to
process it. Please resubmit your request using the
attached template.”
if we scroll up, we can see the response from the
Remediation Team:
“As you can see below, we again sent our ARQ
requests through to Fujitsu using the older process of
master tracker and summary table. It was retumed
refusing to complete the request without us completing
the updated form.
“Could you please advise next steps as we have ten
ARQ requests outstanding.”
if we scroll up, please. The response:
“Further to my earlier emails on this topic, we are
now accumulating a backlog of requests, potentially
delaying postmaster redress
"Can you confirm that [Fujitsu] will process these
requests without further delay?"
If we turn to page 1, it says as follows:
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“We introduce the updated ARQ form to clarify the
intended use of ARQs requested by Post Office. Fujitsu
does not accept that the introduction of this amended
form has caused delay to redress activities. Since it
was introduced, the Post Office has requested over 60
ARQs to support redress activities and these have been
processed in the usual way. As you have now clarified
that the ARQs referred to in your email below are
intended to be used to support postmaster redress,
I will instruct the team to process those received on
the previous version of the form and they will not be
subject to additional charges.”
If we please look again at page 4, I said that the
request came from an email address called the
Remediation Team. We see that the requester has the job
title or team of Remediation Admin Support Team,
Remediation Unit
Has distrust between Fujitsu and the Post Office
reached such a level that, where somebody from the
Remediation Admin Support Team in the Remediation Unit
requests ARQ data, they are not trusted to be requesting
data for that purpose?
The date of this request is 18 June? Am I reading it ~
If we scroll up, yes, 18 June?
I think the response from Dan Walton was when?
217
"... gave evidence last month, and is due to do so
again later this year.
“He admitted to the MPs on the Business Select
Committee this year that there had been ‘bugs, errors
and defects’ with Horizon from the start, and apologised
for [your] firm's role in the scandal.
“[You now face] the prospect that Fujitsu may be
asked to contribute to the compensation fund for the
victims, something he has said the firm has a ‘moral
obligation’ to do.”
Can you assist us, what do you understand by “moral
obligation” or for what purpose did you use that form of
words?
Because the legal process, I think, allows lawyers to
spend a lot of time litigating. I think, from my
standpoint and from my company's standpoint, and in
Tokyo, we felt it was a moral obligation. Now, when
I said that back in January, you know, we've learnt
an awful lot in the last several months of this Inquiry
around what other people and organisations did or didn't
do. So I stand by, and the company does stand by, we
see ourselves contributing morally to redress to the
subpostmasters.
If we scroll down and over the page, please, it quotes
a spokesperson from Fujitsu to say:
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19 June.
So one day later?
Yes.
So -
Sorry, the Daniel Walton email on page 1 is 21 June.
So about four days later, three or four days later. So
I don't agree with the premise of the question. I think
we're dealing with these matters as speedily as we can
do. I think everybody inside Fujitsu is very, very
nervous about any documentation, any data that relates,
to prosecutions or redress. So this is just a natural
nervousness. The management team, I think, in this
‘example got to it very quickly, so Simon very quickly
flagged it with Dan and it was dealt with very quickly,
I would say in three/four days.
That can come down and I'll move to my very final topic
of today, which is compensation and redress. Could we
please bring up on to screen RLIT0000276, please.
This is an article on the BBC website, addressing
pay that was received by Fujitsu bosses during the
Horizon contract. There is a section on you from
page 7, if we go down and look at page 8, and into
page 9. I'll just read to you a few passages from that
report. It refers to you, and if we scroll down, it
says that you:
218
"Based on the findings of the Inquiry, we will also
be working with the UK Government on the appropriate
actions, including contribution to compensation. The
Fujitsu Group hopes for a swift resolution that ensures
just outcome for the victims.”
The Inquiry's evidence has now effectively come to
an end, we have our expert witnesses tomorrow but that
is the end of the final phase of the Inquiry. You have
had an opportunity, Fujitsu have had an opportunity, to
hear all of the evidence that has been heard in this
Inquiry. Having heard that evidence, how are you going
to compensate those affected by Fujitsu's failures?
So what we've said all the way through is we expect to
contribute to redress. We see that as going through the
Government, who are the shareholder, and I heard the
evidence earlier today. So we see that as being
a conversation with Government about what our
contribution would or would not look like.
What have you suggested to Government that your
contribution be?
I have not suggested any particular number. I heard the
questions earlier previous Secretary of State, and
I think she's used the term "gesture". We don't feel
that this is a gesture conversation. This is too
serious. But we do want to sit down with the Government
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and talk about that frankly, and very openly. I thought,
what Mr Reynolds said this moming as well would be very
helpful to that. I have been in constant contact with
the Department for Business and Trade, so the Department
for Business and Trade and me, and with the Post Office,
have been in constant communication around one extension
and also about evidence or not providing evidence. So
I welcome the opportunity to talk to the new Secretary
of State in due course
You outlined at the beginning of your evidence today
a number of things that you accepted, insofar as
Fujitsu's role was concemed. The Inquiry, is, as
I say, coming to the end of its evidence taking what are
you able to say to the Inquiry about what you are
proposing by way of compensation?
{can't put a number on it, and I think, if [reflect on
what I've heard from subpostmasters and the families,
there are a number of areas that they need help in, and
we would like to sit down with Government and figure out
how we contribute to that.
Which in particular?
Well —
What would you like ~ let's assume there is a pot of
money from Fujitsu. What, in particular, do you
consider Fujitsu should be contributing to?
221
“According to government procurement data provider
Tussell, the Japanese group has won six public sector
contracts worth an estimated total of 1.4 million since
making this commitment. Two of these contracts have
been awarded as recently as September.”
We can see there it sets out below in the tables the
various contracts. Can you assist us, to what extent
were these existing bids, to what extent is that new
work that falls under that caveat that has been
provided?
So I believe the MoD is where we have a contractual
obligation to provide hardware. So I think that's what
that one is about. We have ~I think, this article
talks about 33 ~ there it is at the bottom of the page,
33 public sector contracts. So these are existing
contracts that we have obligations within. I think the
Nuclear Laboratory one, they have stated that this is
the last — this is a software contract and they are
moving off that software platform, and that was the
licence for the final year, I think it was.
So these were existing contracts where we have
contractual obligations to provide those ~ either the
hardware or, in this case, software.
It says in the article that the pause is a voluntary one
while the Public Inquiry was ongoing. How do you see
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A. So I'm not going to put number on it, Mr Blake. I think
that’s —
Q._I didn't ask for a number but just in terms of how it
is. There are existing schemes. Is your plan to give
the Government money towards the redress that has
already ocourred or operate a separate fund?
‘A. Sorry, we are not an organisation that can set up new
funds or charities, or what have you. We see ourselves
contributing to whichever scheme the Government and the
subpostmasters agree is the most appropriate one.
Q_ Can I please take you to RLITO000433. It's the final
document Ill take you to today. This is a recent
article in The Financial Times. The headline is "Post
Office IT provider Fujitsu won £1.4 million public
sector contracts since promise to stop bidding”. ll
just read a passage from that, if we scroll down,
please. It says:
“After a public outcry, Fujitsu said in January that
it would ‘voluntarily pause bidding for future public
sector contracts’ while a public inquiry into the
scandal was ongoing.
"However, it did not rule out continuing to bit for
work with existing public sector customers, or when the
Government needed its ‘skills and capability’."
If we go over the page, please, it says:
222
that in the future?
A. I think in due course we'll sit down with Government and
discuss it.
Q._ Do you intend to resume bids once the Inquiry has
finished?
‘A. No, I don't intend to resume bidding. I think this is
a very emotive topic and we would want to sit down with
Government and discuss that. We do some things in
Government, particularly in quite a dangerous area,
which we would like to talk to the Government about in
due course, but I'm not going to say here today that we
are going to start bidding for new contracts. We have
not done that for the last several months and my current
intention is not to start that tomorrow or the day
after.
MRBLAKE: Thank you
Sir, that brings us to questions from Core
Participants. I think we only have two sets of
questions, one from Ms Patrick and one from Mr Stein.
I'm in your hands, sir, as to whether we can complete
those today or whether we return tomorrow morning.
They've been allocated one topic each.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Right. Can I please have, as best you
can, Mr Stein and Ms Patrick, what are you talking about
in terms of time?
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MS PATRICK: Sir, I think ~
MR STEIN: On behalf of Howe+Co we'll be 10 to 15 minutes.
MS PATRICK: Sir —
I apologise, Mr Stein.
Sir, I think we'd be around five to six minutes.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Right. So it's now 4.50 and, as you
know, my powers of concentration are limited to a normal
court day but I think we are all in agreement that it's
better for Mr Patterson to finish if he possibly can; is
that right, do you both agree?
MS PATRICK: Yes, sir.
MR STEIN: Sir, yes. There's one difficulty. I'l need to
have two minutes to speak to Mr Blake about one
particular question.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Allright.
MR STEIN: So that will take me two minutes.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: So we'll have a five-minute break and
resume at 4.55 and finish by 5.20
MR STEIN: Thank you, sir.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Fair?
MR STEIN: Yes, sir
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Fine.
(4.49 pm)
(A short break)
(4.54 am)
225
subpostmasters, including Katie Downey, Rebekah Foot,
and Katie Burrows, who sit next to me today. Again,
you're nodding. You have to say "yes" or “no” for the
transcript.
A. Yes, I recognise them now, yes.
Q._I think you might be aware that their group is called
Lost Chances for Subpostmaster Children?
A. Yes, Lam.
Q._Lost Chances for Subpostmaster Children, affected by the
Horizon scandal, they're campaigning for financial
support to address chances and opportunities lost or, as
they would say, taken from them, during their childhood
as a result of the experiences of their families.
Now, today, perhaps coincidentally, or fortuitously,
while we raised your contact that you'd had with their
group with the Secretary of State during his evidence,
they've had a response from the Post Office to their
request for a meeting with them. But you have met their
group, haven't you?
A. Yes, Ihave.
Q. During that meeting, they did something that was quite
painful for them: they'd written down their stories and
they shared each of them with you, everything that they
had gone through, didn't they?
A. Yes, they did.
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MR BLAKE: Thank you, sir, we're going to hear from
Ms Patrick and then Mr Stein.
‘SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Fine.
Questioned by MS PATRICK
MS PATRICK: Mr Patterson, good afternoon.
A.
pre
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Sorry,
‘Are you okay?
Yes, indeed, yes. Thank you.
My name is Ms Patrick and I ask questions on behalf of
a number of subpostmasters who were wrongfully convicted
and have since had their convictions quashed. I only
want to raise one topic. When you gave evidence in
January, at the end of your evidence you committed to
meeting subpostmasters and their families; is that
right?
I committed to meeting subpostmasters and the families
contacted me.
Yes. In August, early August, seven months on, you met
then with representatives of the children who suffered
as a result of their parents being prosecuted and
convicted.
You're nodding, Mr Patterson. You have to say "yes"
or “no”.
‘Oh, sorry, yes, yes.
In that meeting, there were nine children of former
226
It was in very moving terms, to be frank, wasn't it?
It was.
They explained that their lost opportunities and their
trauma, it just isn't caught by any existing
compensation redress or restorative justice scheme; is
that fair?
That's my understanding, yes.
You listened to what they had to say and you said you
would take it away and you would come back to them?
Yes.
That's over three months ago now, August, isn't it?
Yes.
Yes. Now, Hudgells Solicitors has regularly sought
updates on their behalf from Fujitsu as to what would
happen and when; is that fair?
I believe so.
Just very briefly, we don't have to go through the
detail, in September, on the 13th, your solicitors for
Fujitsu replied and said that your team were continuing
to study what you had learned during your meeting in
August. Can I just ask briefly, very briefly, what had
you leamed in your August meeting?
So the --I think the two or three colleagues -- sorry,
the three members of the group sitting beside you, it
was a very difficult day for them and it was a very
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difficult day to listen. They had a number of ideas,
some of which I had no -- I've got no experience of
personally. I don't know even how we would execute
those things and I think I said in the meetings we are
not the right people to ~ the right organisation to do
some of those things. But let us think about could we
find organisations. But, equally, I think the group
were also structuring themselves differently to allow us
to potentially engage with them in a more structured way
than the way that it was previously.
So we do want to engage in that way. I'm still
unclear about what things we can do other than sums of
money, the list of ~ I think, the education topic that
we talked about, the mental health topic that we talked
about, how we can, as a company help, help in that way,
and I think there was also a conversation around legacy
on education. I didn't bring my notes with me on that
particular meeting.
So we still want to do that. Frankly, we've
struggled, though, to figure out how.
Q._ Can I ask you to pause there for one moment because
I know we're very short of time. The last reply they
received, I believe, suggests you would revert with the
timetable around engagement towards the end of this year
but that you had no further updates at this time, and
229
we think we could help with. I think that we'd want to
explore those again, not to -- I think, in fact,
Rebekah, you made a point about kicking the ball down
the road -- not to do that, but we struggled, frankly,
to find a way to engage it.
Now, I think, if my memory is right, you've also
structured yourself slightly different now, I believe.
I owe it to you to have a look at what that new
structure looks like and is there a way we could engage
with before the end of the calendar year.
Q. Thank you, Mr ~
‘A. And I don't know off the top of my head what your new
structure looks like. Okay.
MS PATRICK: Thank you, Mr Patterson. There have been
updates provided to Fujitsu and I'm very grateful for
your indication that there would be further engagement.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Before Mr Stein asks you any questions,
Mr Patterson, can I just get clarity about one point.
So far as Fujitsu is concemed, does the end of the
Inquiry for taking steps mean at the close of play on
17 December, when the last final oral submissions are
made, or does it mean when I report?
A. [haven't given it, Sir Wyn, any practical thoughts,
actually. I am hoping, once you finish taking all the
evidence, we can sit down with Government, given that
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that came through Fujitsu's solicitors. Does that mean
that it will be the end of the year before you can take
a position on whether you can engage further with the
Lost Chances organisation and with the people sitting
here; is that what that means?
A. So I think there was something else that happened today
with the Secretary of State, where he also said he
thought there was a theme in here or topic in here that
we could be involved in.
I don't know what format that engagement with two of
you, three of you, the nine of you, could be before the
end of the calendar year but I won't stay silent. So
I won't stay silent.
Q. So you won't stay silent. Can I just ask, you said
before the end of the year. Now, given everything that
you've said today, and we know what you've said about
waiting until the end of the Inquiry, given everything
you've said today about that meeting and Fujitsu's role
in the scandal, is there really any need for this work,
this engagement, to wait until the end of the Inquiry to
decide where Fujitsu might fit?
A. So for us as a company, it's very difficult to
understand, when we had the first conversation, very
difficult to understand where that engagement could be,
what could we do. You had a list of several topics that
230
we'll know a number of themes and a number of
conclusions, shall we say, given everybody has listened
to it. But I hadn't given it a definitive date, sir.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Well, that's all right but I would like
you to ponder that because I think everybody will
realise that there is bound to be a period of time,
I won't commit myself to any particular period of time,
between 17 December and when I produce a report, and
I think it would help both clarity and transparency if
Fujitsu did clarify that.
A. Iwill take that up with the Department as well. Thank
you, sir.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes, all right. Mr Stein
Questioned by MR STEIN
MR STEIN: Thank you, Mr Patterson. We've met before.
Can we go to straight to a document which is
FUJ00243199. That's the letter dated 17 May that you're
familiar with. On that first page, can we scroll down,
please, to (ii), "pursuit of shortfalls from
postmasters". Let's just read through that together.
So this is a letter from you to Mr Read and the relevant
part that I'm going to take you to therefore says:
“It seems that the Post Office may be continuing to
pursue postmasters for shortfalls in their accounts
using Horizon data, We would have expected that the
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Post Office has changed its behaviour in light of the
criticisms and is appropriately circumspect with respect
to any enforcement actions. It should not be relying on
Horizon data as the basis for such shortfall
enforcement.”
Now, this appears to be a fairly serious letter.
Did you mean what this says?
I know what I wrote.
Did you mean it?
Well, it's what I wrote, Mr Stein
Well, you either mean something or you don't,
Mr Patterson. Is that correct in what it seems to say,
which is that the Post Office should not be using
Horizon data to go after subpostmasters for shortfalls?
I think, as I've said during the last hour or so, there
is multiple data points that the Post Office should be
using before they conclude whether a shortfall or
a theft has taken place.
Let's try it one more time. Well, let's try it again.
“It should not be relying on Horizon data as the
basis for shortfall enforcement.”
When you wrote that, was that what you felt?
Yes, Mr Stein
Do you still stand by that?
I think, as I've given in evidence today several times,
233
data point, in other words that there should be
something else outside of Horizon data. Is that what
you're trying to say here in your evidence?
Yes, and that was my point earlier about the complete
supply chain that provides information to Horizon, or
actually to subpostmasters themselves. You cannot rely
solely -- forgive me ~ solely on one data source.
Right. So on its own, Horizon data its insufficient to
mount a case against a subpostmaster for a shortfall?
Is that what you're trying to say?
So I am not a legal person. I'm not a legal - in my
view and in our company's view, you cannot rely on that
solely for the data.
To pursue people for shortfalls?
Yes.
Right. Fujitsu's position on this: will you support the
Post Office in pursuing subpostmasters for shortfalls?
We've said we won't do that.
Right, okay. So let's add this all together. Fujitsu
will not support the Post Office if the Post Office is
going after a postmaster for a shorttall either in, I
suppose, correspondence with that subpostmaster, or in
court? Is that correct?
I thought you were going to add another sentence: "based
solely on Horizon data.”
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you cannot rely on just one data source.
Q. Well, that’s not quite the same thing, is it?
A. No, itis exactly the same thing. It's Horizon data,
and I've said you can't rely on one source of data.
Q._ Right. So Horizon data should not be used by the Post
Office to go after subpostmasters for what the Post
Office reckons may be money owed by the subpostmaster?
Is that right?
‘A. So Mr Stein, there's four investigations at the moment
with the police. We have given material to the police
which talks about all the data that they could —
should, frankly ~ be looking at to determine whether
a theft has taken place, or whatever the crime is.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Does it amount to this, Mr Patterson:
that perhaps with, to use that phrase much loved of in
this Inquiry, "with the benefit of hindsight", this
sentence should read: "It should not be relying solely
‘on Horizon data’, et cetera?
A. Yes, Sir Wyn, yes.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Fine. Thank you
‘A. Ihave the words “basis” and "solely" as
interchangeable.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Right.
MR STEIN: The point you made earlier in your evidence,
Mr Patterson, was one whereby you referred to it as one
234
Q. Well, that’s the one you've added today, prompted by
Sir Wyn
A. Well, I'l go the other way. Based on shortfall data
Q. Right
‘A. So whether you want to use "basis" or "solely", the same
thing applies.
Q. So what's going to have to happen: you're going to have
to be persuaded that there's something else other than
Horizon data before you provide support to the Post
Office? How's it going to work, Mr Patterson?
A. So, as I've said in my evidence today, there are
multiple data sources, and if you look at the YouGov
data, look at the YouGov data about different places
where errors or omissions or issues can occur, all of
that needs to be in play and the investigation needs to
be not taking a narrow view, but a holistic view.
Q._ So are you going to get the Post Office to come to you,
provide the data, and then see what else comes up, or do
you need the support, in other words something other
than Horizon data, before you hand over the Horizon
data? Which is it?
A. So Horizon data, as I said earlier, will be inside the
Post Office's house by February, all historical data.
So they'll have all the data that is required. And
I think in evidence from several members of the Post
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Office Executive, they've got that data already. So
they've got the data that they need. My evidence point
is I would like to be satisfied that they are using more
than just one data source. And I've not seen anything,
anything, which tells me that they're using more than
one data source
Isee. Soin that sense, if we put this all together,
frankly, you don't trust the Post Office in order to get
this right?
On this particular topic, I absolutely don't trust the
Post Office.
You mentioned one further point in your evidence to
Mr Blake. This is about the age of the system, okay?
You said this:
“To give this some context, we have not tumed off
some of this equipment because it's so old.”
Mm-hm,
Help us understand what would happen if you did turn it
off?
I've got no idea. So in my experience of 35 years in
this industry, you know, if you do not do disaster
recovery, if you do not tum things off, if you don't
keep them upgraded, I cannot determine what will or will
not happen, which is part of our nervousness about any
extension.
237
You said this:
"Mr Stein, the Inquiry and the explanation of the
history of all of this is getting a great deal of
attention and support from us. Our company here in the
UK has many things in society, around the country,
around the UK. I think the suggestion you've just made,
and clearly [the transcript says ‘clearly in
a conversation’, I think it means ‘is a conversation’)
if I were able to come to and engage with subpostmasters
and their representation, their representatives, we
would -- would be absolutely something we would like to
consider."
So you appeared to be giving a positive answer to
the general suggestion, which is providing some way to
provide support.
Today, in answer to the questions on such matters,
u wishes to engage in
a discussion with Government —- you mentioned also
you've said that Fuji
subpostmasters -- as to providing the financial support
that would go to Government
Now, has Fujitsu written off doing something more
creative than that? In other words, setting up a fund,
bursaries for the children, for the families, for the
people with lost opportunities? Have they written that
off, or is it just going to be money to Government?
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Let's turn back to the questions that I asked you now so
many months ago in January of this year. Now, I asked
you these questions, which was:
"You're aware of the effect of this scandal upon
subpostmasters. It's felt by their families, by their
loved ones, by their partners, by their children. This
devastated not only the subpostmasters' individual lives,
but everyone around them. Subpostmasters, because they
could not see what was going on, would sometimes blame
their own partners or their employees, and the effect,
therefore, of this scandal is much more widespread than
on the subpostmasters themselves, whose lives sometimes
have been terminated by this scandal."
Then I asked you this:
"Will Fujitsu commit to providing funds in
recompense for all those hurts to others outside of
subpostmasters and the contribution scheme? In other
words, financial redress to support others that have
been affected?”
I asked this:
"You may want to think that what could be done by
Fujitsu is supporting people in the future,
subpostmasters in future entrepreneurial endeavours,
their families in such, or in education; will Fujitsu
consider that type of support?”
238
So when I met the subpostmasters there were many, many
suggestions, and in fact one subpostmaster made it clear
to me the company should not be giving any money to
Government at all. We are not a -- we've got no
experience of setting up these things or doing these
things. Or, as I just said to the Lost Families, we
were hoping that through Government channels we'd be
able to provide funds to contribute to some of those
areas. To be more creative, we're struggling to find
out how we can be more creative, frankly, because that's
not something that we've got any experience in.
I was hoping, equally, from this morning's
conversation, that there would be more activity in and
around the law in changing the law or lobbying for the
law to change, because I was personally, as a normal
citizen, surprised that the families did not have
recourse to some of those other areas of compensation
But I haven't written it off, Mr Stein. I'm just not
quite sure where to go.
Well, where to go, Mr Patterson, is to go back to the
representatives representing people that have been in
this situation, and say, “Can you help? We are” ~ if
this is right ~ "Fujitsu is trying to see what can be
done. Do you have experience with compensation,
frameworks, redress schemes, restorative justice
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The Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry 11 November 2024
schemes?"
You will ind that Howe+Co, Mr Enright, who sits to
my left, who sits to Mr Kelly's right -- you may recall
Mr Kelly from meeting him —
Yes, I do.
--he does have that expertise. The people are out
there, Mr Patterson. Why haven't you reached out since
January of this year to those people that can provide
such assistance for you on these important queries?
Sir, there's no reason why I haven't reached out. I've
had the meetings, Mr Stein. Thank you for the
suggestion. We'll have the conversation in due course
with the colleagues.
‘As an IT company, we are unsure where to go and what
to do about this. We were hoping that the compensation
schemes and contributing to the Government compensation
schemes would be a suitable vehicle for redress.
But you know that those compensation schemes are not
providing this type of support to the wider family. So
all that appears to be happening is Fujitsu is
contemplating a contribution, subbing the Government for
the compensation schemes that are currently in place.
That's what you seem to be saying.
Sir, that is what I was saying earlier. And what you're
suggesting to me is that your organisational colleagues
2441
Is that this year, or is that at some point next year
when the Inquiry reports?"
Okay, fine.
Why is it that Fujitsu wants to wait until the end
of the Inquiry before dealing with such matters? What's
the rationale?
So when I sat in this room in January, there were some
things I knew, and I didn't know. I've now spent the
last seven months, as you have, listening to evidence
about what other people in other organisations did or
didn't do. The notion that this is all down to
a software bug and has contributed to the largest
miscarriage of justice in the United Kingdom is
incorrect. These are complex matters, as you well know,
based over many, many decades, and we have learnt, as an
organisation, a great deal about the causes of this.
miscarriage of justice.
Yes, well, let's go back to my question: why is it that
Fujitsu needs to await the close of this Inquiry before
it deals with matters such as compensation or
contributions towards compensation?
For the reasons I've just given: these are complex
matters which we need to understand all those
components. Now, what we do know, and as I said to
Sir Wyn just a moment ago, by the time we get to the end
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may have some expertise in these other areas, and we'll
have that conversation.
Q. Is there a standstill agreement between the civil action
from the Post Office and Fujitsu as to whether the one,
Post Office, will sue the other, Fujitsu?
A. Yes, there is.
Q. Soin essence, what may be happening here, do you agree,
Mr Patterson, is Fujitsu is considering paying some
‘compensation towards the compensation funds in order to
stave off, as a way of settling the action from the Post
Office against Fujitsu? That's what it appears to be,
Mr Patterson
A. Well, i's not, Mr Stein.
Q. So any funds committed by Fujitsu towards compensation
will not be in settlement to the claim between Post
Office and Fujitsu is that what you're saying?
‘A. So, Mr Stein, I have had no conversation with the Post
Office about the standstill agreement. That's our legal
teams and our legal teams. As far as I'm concerned, if
there's any contribution to compensation, it will always
be outside that conversation.
Q._Lastly, where in all of this is the situation that’s
been described: which is that Fujitsu awaits the close
of the Inquiry? Now, Sir Wyn has asked you some
questions: "What do you mean by the end of the Inquiry?
242
of this week we'll have a better idea on a number of
those topics about how we can contribute. You have
given me a suggestion here, and I've already committed
to meeting with the Lost Families.
Q. But Mr Patterson, you already accept that there is
a need for Fujitsu to put its money where its mouth is.
You would accept that there is at least a discussion to
be had about supporting people that have been affected
by the scandal. Why wait? Is this legal advice: wait
until the end of the Inquiry when it's all gone quiet?
A. Far from it, gone quiet. I don't expect this to go
quiet at all. Why should it go quiet? These are
serious matters.
Q._Butis this your decision to wait until the end of the
Inquiry, oris it legal advice? What is it, Mr Fujitsu
(sic)? Who is telling you to wait until the end of the
Inquiry?
SIR WYN WILLIAMS:
question fully. He can say, "I'm not going to tell you
about our legal advice", can't he?
MRSTEIN: That's true, but it is his choice.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes, well I'm just reminding him he has
a choice.
MR STEIN: Yes.
Mr Patterson?
'm not sure about answering that
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SIR WYN WILLIAMS: I mean itis the reality, Mr Patterson,
isn't it, that by listening to all the evidence first,
you will have a much better idea about the culpability
of Fujitsu, if any; isn't that the reality of it?
A. Yes, itis, Sir Wyn.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Fine. Thank you
MR STEIN: So the end result of this is that we know the
Post Office has indicated that they wish to bring
forward restorative justice proposals. Will Fujitsu
commit to supporting that?
A. So you asked me a question a moment ago: do I trust the
Post Office?
Q. Well, you've got a choice, Mr Patterson. You can reject
working with the Post Office as you like. Will Fujitsu
commit to supporting restorative justice proposals?
A. So the new management team inside the Post Office,
I would welcome that opportunity to sit down and talk to
them about those topics, yes, Mr Stein.
Q._ Sooner rather than later, Mr Patterson?
‘A. I spoke to the Post Office Executives on Friday, and I'm
speaking to them again on Thursday. So sooner rather
than later, yes.
Q._ Avoiding any other problems, will you commit also to
meeting with Mr Enright and his team from Howe+Co sooner
rather than later --
245
THE WITNESS: Thank you, Sir Wyn.
(6.21 pm)
(The hearing adjourned until 10.00 am the following day)
247
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a
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Mr Stein, you've asked me that question before as well,
and the answer is I won't commit to that.
You won't commit to that?
No, not sooner rather than later. You've just given me
a whole bunch of caveats to that meeting. You've just
offered to me that you've got some experience in those
areas. I will talk to my team about how do we get the
value from that conversation. But I'm not going to sit
down and commit to meeting Mr Enright tomorrow or today
or whenever. I need to have that conversation first.
All right, well that's avoiding tomorrow —
Well, you said the words "tomorrow" and "today" and you
gave me a number of caveats.
How about before Christmas, Mr —
‘SIR WYN WILLIAMS: That's enough, gentlemen. That's enough.
I think I've got the picture.
Thank you very much, and it's finishing dead on
time, Mr Stein, so well done.
MR STEIN: Thank you, sir.
SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Right. Good
We'll resume again at 10.00 tomorrow, but first ~
or lastly, today -- I should thank you, Mr Patterson,
for appearing again at the Inquiry, for producing
witness statements on behalf of Fujitsu, and making the
commitments to the extent that you have. Thank you
246
INDEX
JONATHAN NEIL REYNOLDS MP (sworn) 1
Questioned by MR BLAKE ......
Questioned by MR STEIN .... 45
Questioned by MS SHAH ......... 59
Questioned by MS PATRICK ... 1
Questioned by SIR WYN WILLIAMS ........... 75
KEMI BADENOCH MP (sworn)........... 78
Questioned by MR BEER 78
Questioned by MR STEIN .... 151
Questioned by MS PATRICK ... 162
Questioned by MR HENRY 168
Questioned by SIR WYN WILLIAMS ... 171
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WILLIAM PAUL PATTERSON (sworn)
Questioned by MR BLAKE .....
Questioned by MS PATRICK ........00sec00e
Questioned by MR STEIN ....ccccscene
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‘I [2] 30/20 30/22 81/2 21 February [3] 5.00 [1] 173/15
WR BEER TIE 7H/6I'l think [1] 30/22 463k [1] 100/9 81/25 84/23 85/9 I 5.20 [1] 225/18
MR BEER: [19] 78/6 ‘lwish [1] 30/20 467 [1] 67/3 21 June [1] 218/5 [5.21 [4] 247/2
415/10 115/12 115/17) iS [11 239/8 468 [1] 67/4 21st [1] 147/3 50 years [1] 35/20
445/19 151/13 151/16] Moral [1] 219/9 47 [3] 51/13 178/6 I22 July [2] 15/16 —_I50,000 [3] 16/5 17/18
4152/4 168/4 16816. I'SKills [1] 222/24 178/11 15/22 18/10
4171/2 173/17 ‘substantial [1] 30/17I17 December [2] 23 [2] 106/12 106/24 I50k [4] 13/16 16/16
MR BLAKE: [27] 1/3/‘Vietim’ [1] 205/14 I 231/21 23218 23 August [1] 183/13I 16/17 18/3
4/5 1/8 1/12 1/16 1/21I Voluntarily [1] 17 May [2] 192/15 I23 February [1] 86/7 I57 [1] 179/1
2612 28/12 30/5 42/10) 222/19 232/17 23 January [1] 133/1 I5k [1] 19/11
"you [1] 125/19 47-month [1] 81/14 I23 September [1] [5s [2] 152/2 152/9
45/2 45/8 59/20 70/6 I Yen nnn] 37/4 Tay
ie oe eel 4 gg p2) 217/28 217/24 I23ra [1] 136/10 6
473/23 173/25 174/5 I12000 [2] 113/25 48 months [1] 96/1 I24 [1] 157/21 6 September [1] 81/8)
485/20 209/17 224/16I,)/2/8 19 [3] 23/23 26/4 24 January [1] 6 September 2022 [1]
2206/1 1.09 [1] 115/14 218/1 132/23 81/2
MR HENRY: [2 1.4 million [2] 222/14I49 per cent [1] 179/5I24th [1] 136/10 60 [1] 217/5
wera I 2233 1999 [2] 185/1 25 [5] 140/9 141/2 I60 hours [1] 121/15
MR STEIN: [16 1.8 billion [1] 10/7 I 210/15 141/22 213/1 213/2 I600 [4] 19/10
we ene 20 [10 L4) 865 132/21 lak [4] 19/12 25 years [1] 200/22 I66 [1] 213/1
179/6 25/2 > I26 July [1] 205/6
152/6 162/14 225/2 2 7
225/12 225/16 225/19] 12 Years [1] 35/20 I< ________I26 September [3] 2/1)-_____
10,000 [2] 108/15 2 September [1] 78/17 79/8 7 February [2] 81/8
246/19 10.00 [3] 1/2 246/21 I2.00 [2] 115/10 27 January [2] 7 November [1]
MS PATRICK: [9 247/3 115/16 117/22 118/8 66/12
71/2 75i2 Aa 10.14 [1] 48/18 2010 [2] 3/2 175/22 I28 September [1] _I7 October [1] 79/3
teat 225/1 225/3 I 10-59 [1] 42/2 2014 [1] 84/14 174/14 72 [1] 176/18
100 [2] 19/11 132/6 I2042 [2] 84/13 201/8 I29 December [1] 75,000 [5] 17/2 22/10
225/11 226/5 231/14 lag percent [1] I2014 [1] 174/14 174/16 22/19 26/20 28/21
MS SHAH: [2] 99/22) 160/13 2017 [2] 79/18 80/15 I_I [13] 13/7 13/13
100,000 [1] 124/3 I2019 [12] 45/13 3 16/7 16/9 16/13 16/21
SIR WAN WILLIAMS! 400k [2] 100/22 48/12 48/14 80/16 I3.23 [1] 173/20 17/22 19/9 19/18
88 7 dois vera I 107/19 80/18 83/11 152/25 I3.35 [2] 173/18 21/11 21/18 28/15
28/7 28/13 29/8 30/3 (10K [1] 100/12 153/5 155/10 155/19 I 173/22 29/3
40/2 45/6 Tol10 7oli7I11 [2] 95/4 134/14 I 157/15 18/1 30 [4] 91/1 156/23 I77 [2] 209/21 209/21
70120 75/4 77/17 {1 November 2024 2019-24 [1] 157/21 I 209/20 209/21 ;..
77123 78/1 78/7 115/8I £11.11 2020 [5] 80/21 96/1 I314 March [2] 20/19 I>——_________
415/11 115/18 16873 I11-00 [2] 1/8 41/25 I 153/6 13/6 207/7 209/23 8 August [1] 174/19
468/5 168/9 17114. 11-37 [1] 70/22 2021 [7] 80/21 81/2 I33 [3] 198/22 223/14 I8 July [2] 182/23
47118 17116 172119 I11-45 [2] 70/20 70/24 I 82/24 96/1 106/13 223/15 195/9
472/25 173/6 173/13 [14-59 [1] 78/3 153/6 153/7 33 pages [1] 208/19 I85,000 [1] 22/19
473/19 173/24 17/2 (12 [11 147/23 2022 [9] 81/281/8 I35 years [1] 237/20 I8k[1] 100/12
485/16 185/19 20a/7 I12 months [4] 83/19 116/1 153/7 I36 [2] 37/7 14118 Ig
5) 5) 123/24 178/19 179/1 I 153/8 153/8 153/8 I38 [1] 171/6 = _______
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176/3 179/5 104/8 110/10 116/8 I4.50 [1] 225/6
244/22 245/1 245/6 A2 [1] 78/18
246/15 246/20 14 pages [1] 79/4 I 174/18 180/21 4.54 [1] 225/25 a Ct
5 14 September [1] 2024 [18] 1/1 19/10 I4.55 [1] 225/18 ability [3]
THE WITNESS: [9] 57/23 72/12
174/17 78/17 79/3 79/8 81/11I40 [1] 156/23
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15 [2] 77/24 225/2 I 81/18 83/12 116/19 I40-day [1] 6/21
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63/15 63/20 64/2 64/5 199/19 200/4 209/22 I 216/21 added [1] 236/1 133/3 160/18
65/5 65/6 65/6 65/17 absence [2] 114/20 Iaccuracy [5] 32/20 Iadding [1] 150/15 advisers [1] 100/18
65/19 70/1 71/9 71/10 115/6 33/8 104/2 108/5 addition [2] 47/25 advises [1] 91/5
72I17 72/18 73/12 absolutely [27] 10/22) 186/3 199/11 Advisory [2] 24/12
73/16 73/20 73/23 11/11 22/21 26/2 34/2I accurate [8] 6/6 7/3 Iadditional [4] 12/6 72/5
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97/10 97/16 97/24 173/2 173/4 179/16 I accusation [1] 128/24 141/25 163/5 I 72/11 84/23
101/5 107/8 108/5 209/4 209/13 209/13 I 180/16 174/12 175/12 192/24I affected [13] 30/11
108/22 109/17 110/1 I 219/2 237/10 239/11 Iaccusing [1] 206/12 I 193/7 193/18 195/20 I 45/11 57/18 57/19
4140/6 110/7 113/1 abuses [2] 65/21 achieve [6] 30/15 204/3 217/14 227/11 I 57/20 57/22 58/2
114/13 116/2 116/9 66/6 104/15 138/18 144/4 Iaddressed [8] 15/21 I 63/19 99/20 220/12
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126/19 126/22 127/2 Iaccelerating [2] 99/4 Iacknowledge [2] 193/10 159/6
1427/6 127/13 128/6 100/21 62/15 128/21 addresses [10] 16/5 I affection [1] 44/6
1428/6 128/16 129/16 acceleration [2] acknowledgement 19/5 30/7 30/8 41/16 I afoot [1] 99/25
429/20 130/13 130/14 104/12 142/19 [1] 166/25 104/17 195/7 200/2 I afraid [9] 46/5 77/25
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137/17 138/17 141/1 244/5 244/7 192/19 203/20 adjourned [1] 247/3 I 70/14 81/17 85/24
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1443/5 143/19 144/7 183/20 acting [8] 69/15 115/15 96/23 99/9 102/8
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449/12 149/13 150/11] 29/18 25/19 26/14 138/14 148/18 207/15I Admin [2] 217/16 109/12 114/2 114/8
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tena tear teat 1771/4 214/16 242/3 242/10 Iadministrations [1] I 233/14 234/6 235/21
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222/10 225/10 242/7 I 196/16 198/13 198/14I 169/25 169/25 170/2 Iannounced [3] 6/12 I 214/6 214/19 218/10
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101/18 103/23 134/16 206/2 206/4 206/10 I 183/23 198/9 199/10 Iannouncement [5] 230/19 231/17 231/23,
1435/7 210/15 206/23 210/13 210/25} 199/14 199/22 206/2 I 13/8 13/9 13/12 15/10} 232/7 233/3 237/24
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427/18 220/10 220/13 225/8 I 212/15 220/1 221/7 Iannouncements [3] I 242/20 245/4 245/23
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appeal [10] 6/11 25/8 29/22 39/21 43/19 217/8 47/21 52/25 52/19 201/19
37/10 38/3 49/20 46/6 75/1 76/6 160/21I arrange [3] 128/17 Iassessment [11] averse [1] 148/2
51/19 52/6 72/3 82/23) 160/23 185/13 186/1 I 159/15 192/3 14/22 16/14 17/15 avoid [1] 40/3
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24/22 25/4 25/9 38/3 IAPProximately [3] article [5] 30/6 210/19 210/20 213/15I award [9] 6/18 13/13
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79/4 242/1 246/7 ask [38] 2/7 25/25 134/18 24/10 24/23 34/14
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apply [1] 38/23 arises [1] 171/5 226/9 228/21 229/21 Iat [270] 163/25 178/7 183/3
applying [1] 200/22 arising [2] 96/6 134/3I 230/14 at page 8 [1] 218/22 I 185/22 198/23 198/24
appointed [5] 115/25 arm [1] 155/22 asked [33] 10/6 15/6 Iattached [2] 215/25 I 199/6 202/24 209/9
157/18 157/23 169/10/2"m's [9] 64/10 64/16I 55/5 64/23 101/24 216/9 227/6 238/4
207/14 73/6 91/1 93/16 108/5 114/1 115/24 Iattempt [4] 17/24 away [8] 108/16
appointment [9] 117/13 121/24 141/1 I 118/12 119/16 124/25) 18/6 103/9 133/10 112/2 114/9 114/11
1402/8 116/2 116/3 169/24 135/22 149/20 154/11Iattempts [1] 102/12 I 161/11 164/8 189/2
133/19 139/22 140/4 arm's-length [8] 156/1 157/7 159/22 Iattend [1] 205/9 228/9
4147/5 155/19 170/22 64/10 64/16 91/1 162/24 163/1 163/16 Iattending [2] 15/3 awful [2] 56/5 219/19
appointments [4] 93/16 117/13 121/24 I 165/23 208/21 208/24) 170/5 awkward [1] 171/11
3/16 82/17 85/12 141/1 169/24 209/1 209/6 219/8 attends [1] 70/16 B....
116/5 arms [1] 161/10 238/1 238/2 238/14 Iattention [7] 113/22 I= ______
appreciate [5] 10/12 around [44] 11/21 238/20 242/24 245/11I 134/9 183/2 196/19 /B19 [2] 127/22
27/22 34/20 37/12 14/7 26/5 35/15 35/19] 246/1 197/4 212/13 239/4 127/23
69/6 41/20 43/25 49/21 asking [14] 27/23 attest [2] 184/1 B28 [1] 106/21
appreciated [1] 49/23 54/3 58/22 94/2 97/22 157/5 196/25 back [38] 28/10 30/4
205/4 60/10 60/12 65/7 159/20 160/4 160/18 Iattesting [1] 196/2 50/17 52/3 54/21
approach [13] 16/19 65/15 71/21 77/1 185/7 187/25 188/24 Iattractive [1] 35/2 I 59/15 71/11 73/8
20/9 20/14 24/5 24/6 96/14 110/4 110/4 188/25 196/8 203/20 Iaudit [5] 149/8 81/22 89/10 89/11
54/1 54/9 101/8 104/1 110/17 116/11 116/12] 213/22 149/23 177/14 181/1 I 104/7 110/25 113/17
142/20 143/10 193/2 I 141/3 146/6 149/17 Iasks [3] 203/21 185/7 116/1 116/21 119/4
204/19 154/6 176/15 179/22 I 214/14 231/17 August [17] 74/7 122/12 128/11 132/18)
approached [2] 187/5 197/8 211/14 Iaspect [2] 14/13 74/12 98/21 98/25 135/13 155/3 164/18
34/11 56/12 212/3 212/6 212/15 I 133/16 99/2 104/8 104/9 175/11 185/13 200/20)
219/20 221/6 225/5 aspects [1] 86/12 104/11 106/13 110/10] 201/8 207/10 209/16
approaches [1] 229/16 229/24 238/8 Iaspiration [4] 29/16 I 174/19 183/13 226/18] 209/19 210/14 212/25
(67) apologise - back
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B bearing [2] 18/1 99/8I 82/11 83/21 83/21 I beginning [7] 24/19 IBEIS0001228 [1]
pack. [6] 2143 IPecame [8] 27/13 I 83/24 84/7 85/2 85/19) 75/11 81/22 118/25 I 15/17
219/18 228/9 238/1 I 36/13 79/21 80/13 I 89/5 94/23 96/11 154/11 161/22 221/10I belief [7] 2/12 22/8
240/20 243/18 84/12 96/20 142/24 I 96/24 100/7 107/12 I begins [1] 42/8 22/8 78/25 79/15
backbench [1] 97/1 I 142/25 108/24 109/12 110/19I behalf [8] 58/10 175/5 208/15
backbenches [1] IPecause [91] 9/16 I 111/3 112/13 119/24 I 59/25 78/12 91/20 believe [48] 6/5 7/21
BOS 10/11 11/2 19/2 21/14I 121/2 122/2 123/10 I 25/2 226/9 228/14 I 19/12 24/14 25/9
23/10 26/17 28/20 I 125/4 129/16 129/20 I 246/24 25/19 29/7 35/5 35/6
backed [1] 134/19 4
background [6] 2/21 31/15 32/7 34/6 35/22) 129/24 129/24 130/19) behaviour [5] 133/13) 35/23 36/2 39/4 39/12
79/17 115/24 143/18 I 99/24 37/5 37/9 39/1 I 131/3 131/3 132/9 193/5 193/16 205/19 I 40/6 40/13 41/19 44/5
156/13 203/18 41/1 44/18 46/9 62/9 I 136/23 137/12 137/14) 233/1 44/16 46/8 49/24
backlog [2] 30/18 66/4 67/2 69/12 83/19] 137/24 138/6 139/2 Ibehaviours [2] 112/3I 54/10 55/18 56/22
pon 83/24 84/25 87/12 139/20 140/19 140/23) 205/11 57/7 62/18 73/2 79/25
bad [2] 167/22 169/8 88/8 89/5 96/23 97/9 I 141/10 143/1 143/15 Ibehind [9] 2/5 11/3 I 88/8 89/1 101/1
Badenoch [19] 2/20 102/20 108/12 108/22I 143/24 144/3 144/11 I 11/11 14/8 35/18 55/7I 121/15 122/16 138/25
70/16 78/8 78/9 78/11] 110/14 110/5 110/15 I 144/18 145/18 147/17) 113/4 113/12 162/8 I 139/12 141/10 145/23
78/14 89/25 99/5 110/23 110/25 114/21) 152/11 152/15 153/15I being [94] 4/10 6/1 I 145/24 153/20 161/16}
115/21 151/13 151/20I 120/3 121/4 121/10 I 153/20 154/17 155/13) 6/6 6/12 6/14 7/2 9/23) 164/6 165/13 167/5
152/14 155/19 162/14I 1317/6 131/24 132/8 I 155/18 155/23 155/23) 10/21 11/7 12/16 14/6) 186/11 209/8 223/11
162/17 168/1 171/5 I 132/13 135/22 137/22) 156/4 156/6 156/6 14/12 21/19 23/10 228/16 229/23 231/7
173/7 248/14 138/7 138/12 138/16 I 158/13 158/13 159/5 I 25/16 26/16 32/20 believed [5] 14/20
baked [2] 148/3 143/17 144/18 144/23] 163/24 167/6 167/15 I 32/21 33/5 33/7 33/8 I 22/1 22/9 29/25
149/4 145/15 147/8 147/9 I 168/17 168/18 169/7 I 35/17 38/15 43/18 166/22
balance [1] 178/23 149/8 154/7 154/18 I 169/8 170/14 173/8 I 51/1 55/24 57/1 59/8 I believing [1] 172/6
balances [6] 18/5 154/20 156/1 156/9 I 175/8 175/11 176/4 I 61/23 64/23 65/3 belongs [1] 166/12
97/12 98/15 149/9 158/2 160/25 161/9 I 177/8 177/17 180/7 I 66/21 69/23 71/13 below [7] 17/22
166/14 204/6 164/6 165/1 166/12 181/3 181/15 183/3 76/22 77/2 89/2 91/10I 21/12 21/18 192/2
ball [2] 87/12 231/3 169/16 169/22 170/13) 183/19 186/2 189/8 I 93/17 94/11 94/21 216/12 217/8 223/6
banging [4] 117/10 170/17 171/9 179/13 I 189/10 189/14 197/18) 95/6 96/22 97/11 benches [1] 73/18
bank [3] 80/4 80/6 181/20 182/1 188/18 I 199/6 199/17 199/25 I 99/16 101/8 103/4 beneficial [1] 73/11
93/17 195/20 195/21 196/23] 201/1 201/19 202/7 I 103/5 103/15 107/9 I benefit [5] 15/4 24/3
banking [3] 43/13 206/5 212/11 219/14 I 202/8 203/9 207/12 I 108/8 113/6 113/8 62/24 130/11 234/16
76/8 47 229/21 232/5 237/16 I 208/22 208/25 212/13) 114/1 114/1 114/6 benefits [2] 24/5
Banks [1] 122/3 238/8 240/10 240/15 I 215/18 217/6 219/4 I 116/9 116/14 117/23 I 100/21
barrier [1] 72/15 become [4] 36/12 220/10 221/3 221/6 I 119/1 126/24 135/14 Ibeside [1] 228/24
Bartlett [3] 190/10 70/12 90/7 114/3 223/5 223/9 224/22 I 139/14 153/14 153/17I bespoke [2] 187/22
4197/2 203/17 becomes [1] 114/8 I 231/14 238/13 238/19] 153/20 158/3 159/23 I 187/23
Bartlett's [1] 191/25 becoming [3] 25/2 I 240/21 242/23 244/8 I 161/22 163/14 164/16I best [20] 2/11 14/15
base [1] 142/18 85/6 168/9 BEER [9] 78/10 165/8 165/8 178/1 35/5 44/17 45/23
based [11] 32/6 been [200] 4/4 5/10 I 78/12 115/8 151/24 I 178/1 179/10 186/21 I 78/25 79/14 101/8
39/14 77/1 85/25 5/17 5/21 5/23 5/25 I 152/10 165/20 167/17) 189/2 190/16 191/6 I 101/19 108/4 109/9
185/10 178/7 199/17 I 6/2 6/5 6/8 8/21 8/23 I 168/10 248/16 193/8 194/20 195/23 I 110/13 130/18 169/3
20/1 235/24 236/3. I 9/1.10/3. 11/4 11/10 IBeer's [1] 157/9 197/6 197/7 200/25 I 169/11 171/19 175/5
243/15 11/19 11/22 14/9 _I before [58] 3/1 9/10 I 201/17 203/12 206/3 I 205/2 208/15 224/23
basis [11] 46/19 15/15 16/20 16/22 I 25/25 26/9 28/23 29/5I 213/20 214/5 214/16 Ibetter [6] 98/17
131/6 1385/9 135/11 I 19/23. 20/12 22/17 I 29/11 33/12 41/13 I 220/16 226/20 108/24 120/17 225/9
448/21 186/17 199/17] 233 23/14 23/18 25/5] 49/15 53/14 55/21 I BEIS [1] 86/19 244/1 245/3
233/4 233/21 234/21 I 26/18 27/17 32/15 I 56/16 57/12 58/1 I BEIS0000705 [2] _I betterment [1] 68/10
236/5 32/19 33/2 33/4 34/7 I 70/16 72/11 75/4 104/5 111/14 between [38] 5/18
Bates [1] 30/13 36/8 36/18 37/4 38/13] 79/18 80/9 82/8 85/2 IBEISO000716 [1] 6/11 8/21 9/2 17/14
bath [1] 125/24 38/24 39/19 39/25 I 85/5 89/8 90/6 91/11 I 106/12 18/20 18/25 29/19
battle [6] 126/10 42/24 46/11 46/17 I 95/22 97/4 99/11 _I BEIS0000808 [1] 35/6 43/1 43/4 57/6
126/11 126/16 126/18] 48/8 48/9 49/18 49/25] 112/14 115/19 12014 I 98/24 57/14 60/11 60/16
426/25 172/14 50/5 50/11 52/12 120/24 132/24 139/4 IBEISO000868 [1] 67/12 72/13 73/18
BB25 [3] 141/18 52/22 52/23 53/4 155/7 156/18 158/21 I 136/8 81/7 89/5 93/22
141/19 157/9 54/16 54/17 55/2 160/16 163/12 166/21IBEISO000888 [1] 126/23 129/23 134/4
BB3 [2] 152/4 152/5 I 95/13 85/18 56/23 I 173/9 193/21 195/8 I 12/24 4154/8 168/16 173/15
BBC [2] 30/21 218/19) 58/3 58/3 59/18 60/22] 198/25 230/2 230/11 I BEIS0001059 [1] 178/13 182/19 182/23
BBC Breakfast [1] I 63/6 63/12 63/13 230/15 231/10 231/17) 118/6 192/13 195/18 207/22
30/21 63/14 63/19 64/19 I 232/15 233/17 236/9 IBEIS0001064 [4] 215/19 217/18 232/8
be [466] 65/12 65/18 66/4 236/20 243/5 243/19 I 83/16 89/11 116/22 I 242/3 242/15
bear [3] 71/16 109/15] 68/17 72/4 72/11 246/1 246/14 151/21 beyond [5] 65/9
127/25 72/15 72/20 73/4 74/9I beforehand [1] BEIS0001070 [1] 86/24 94/20 97/12
76/9 76/9 7/4 81/18 I 128/17 4140/1 4103/8
(68) back... - beyond
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B bogged [1] 158/7 I 116/21 116/23 143/1 Ibusiness [51] 2/18 I 62/19 65/22 69/2
bias [1] 60712 IPold [1] 141/23 briefings [2] 95/9 I 3/12 3/15.4/125/1 __I 69/18 70/1 70/8 74/25
bible [1] 92/12 bolts [1] 43/6 112/6 5/13 7/14 8/3 8/11 9/3) 75/4 78/6 78/12 81/22!
bonuses [1] 137/23 Ibriefly [5] 165/16 9/8 9/9 40/23 41/8 83/15 84/2 84/25
Bickerton [2] 86/9 fo oks [2] 200/11 I 165/25 228/17 228/21I 43/6 43/17 44/8 44/14I 89/10 89/23 89/25
87/10
bidding [5] 187/14 200/17 228/21 46/12 48/18 50/20 92/1 92/10 95/1 95/1
2293/1 ng 2204/6 Iborderline [3] 22/10 Ibring [16] 3/5 3/7 61/2 61/18 63/20 69/6I 95/25 98/24 104/4
27/2 27/9 12/23 13/14 67/19 76/6 77/10 81/11 85/2I 104/10 106/11 107/10
224/12
bids [2] 223/8 224/4
big [6] 61/19 76/16
124/2 125/25 132/8
150/6
bigger [1] 149/25
biggest [1] 167/16
bosses [1] 218/20 75/22 107/13 175/24 I 85/7 86/10 88/1 88/14I 107/22 108/2 109/6
Boston [2] 39/24 178/5 209/19 212/25 I 88/19 93/16 93/17 109/9 109/10 110/1
43/9 214/7 214/9 218/18 120/25 121/15 122/3 I 110/24 111/15 112/7
both [18] 20/23 43/17I 229/17 245/8 125/8 126/1 142/1 112/11 112/11 114/24)
43/18 47/19 52/13 brings [1] 224/17 146/12 183/25 194/3 I 115/17 115/21 116/21
58/13 77/13 85/21 British [4] 10/2 66/5 I 194/21 205/15 212/7 I 116/22 118/5 118/6
Bill [1] 46/13 99/19 101/18 103/16 I 93/17 122/3 219/3 221/4 221/5 119/4 120/15 121/16
billion [1] 10/7 136/18 139/16 172/2 Ibroad [1] 72/2 business-like [1] 122/18 124/25 125/1
bit [13] 27/23 52/21 I 191/4 207/14 225/10 Ibroader [1] 170/8 I 126/1 427/11 128/15 132/18
58/15 84/3 91/4 23219 broadly [5] 14/9 61/6 Ibusinesses [1] 47/21] 135/17 136/8 137/10
1406/14 113/17 120/20Ibother [1] 26/23 73/17 94/24 99/5 busy [2] 56/19 76/4 I 139/21 140/1 140/10
1450/5 157/25 168/14 bottom [14] 13/3 Brocklesby [1] but [303] 141/16 141/16 142/23)
1470/21 222/22 106/23 128/3 128/8 I 180/21 c¢..0.0 444/25 147/2 147/3
128/9 128/11 129/3 Ibroken [2] 166/22 148/8 148/22 149/11
bite [1] 145/19
4 141/20 148/5 193/24 I 167/41 Cabinet [4] 9/5 75/21I 149/15 150/8 150/13
Binks sy 4 420 213/2 215/21 216/3 Ibrought [8] 79/13 I 170/5 170/6 150/19 151/1 151/3
3/23 4/3 8/25 11/20 I 223/14 82/18 113/14 113/15 Icalendar [2] 230/12 I 151/16 151/21 154/7
14/6 15/14 17/5 20/3 [Pound [1] 232/6 114/19 134/9 156/4 I 231/10 158/15 158/15 159/14
24/1 21/24 25/25 box [12] 87/1 87/2 I 174/13 call [17] 45/13 76/12 I 161/10 164/10 164/21
89/12 89/16 91/18 I buck [1] 36/25 78/8 89/12 117/23 I 165/14 167/7 167/11
27/17 30/4 31/2 34/20) 7774 44/14 134/25 Ibuckets [1] 153/24 I 118/6 118/7 1194 I 167/14 168/7 171/17
oo tnd tor waite 135/1 135/1 136/6 I budget [7] 9/12 9/20 I 127/11 128/20 129/1 I 174/18 172/19 173/14I
77/23 168/3 173/17 I 213/23 9/22 10/4 10/8 10/13 I 132/1 132/24 139/18 I 173/23 174/5 174/23
4174/4 17513 177/10 Iboxes [5] 84/16 56/25 139/19 153/1 192/1 I 175/1 175/3 175/4
484/20 1885/7 186/9 I 84/16 84/18 84/22 I budgeted [1] 144/14 Icalled [14] 30/13 I 176/6 178/5 178/6
486/20 188/21 197/14I 86/25 bug [1] 243/12 35/11 35/11 40/1 49/3) 180/18 184/3 185/9
2301/7 206/17 209/16 Ibracket [1] 47/4 bugs [14] 180/8 53/14 53/18 65/25 I 188/3 189/23 190/10
302/1 225/13 237/13 IDranch [11] 142/18 I 183/4 183/8 183/18 I 73/25 74/3 79/21 192/14 194/17 195/5
142/22 143/4 161/25 I 183/21 184/11 184/15) 175/11 217/14 227/6 I 200/18 202/13 205/2
248/4 249/83 183/6 186/5 187/8 I 184/21 186/1 186/2 Icalls [3] 120/2 129/1 I 210/11 213/15 215/20
Blake's [1] 45/20
194/12 199/9 199/23 I 187/5 189/10 19/7 I 137/11 215/23 216/3 216/10
aes I 96/25 204/14 204/9 came [18] 10/12 216/12 216/23 218/8
blanket [3] 26/19 /Pranches [5] 45/16 [building (2] 181/16 I 11/12 33/11 58/20 I 218/16 219/11 222/7
27/5 39/19 57/19 142/20 194/4 I 212/1 74/12 117/21 130/6 I 222/11 223/6 223/7
block [1] 106/14 214/21 bullet [17] 75/15 84/4I 135/3 136/5 136/9 I 224/20 224/23 224/24
blockers [1] 96/2 IPrand [1] 44/5 85/11 87/1 87/1 89/16I 137/12 153/17 158/23] 225/9 228/21 229/12
Bloody [1] 65/6 breach [1] 214/18 I 91/7 92/4 107/16 166/21 197/5 213/17 I 229/15 229/21 230/2
blue [4] 32/10 breadth [2] 53/1 107/17 116/24 142/11) 217/14 230/1 230/3 230/14 231/18
blue-sky [1] 32/10 105/5 142/15 152/14 153/14I campaigner [1] 231/25 232/16 232/18
board [25] 28/5 break [14] 70/13 157/10 157/11 30/13 236/14 240/10 240/22
66/14 66/19 66/20 I 79/15 70/15 70/18 I bunch [1] 246/5 campaigning [1] 240/23 241/8 244/2
81/7 85/11 88/13, 70/23 77/23 78/4 Ibundle [6] 2/3 2/4 I 227/10 244/19 245/13
93/20 94/3 94/16 115/7 168/5 168/7 I 24/25 78/18 196/18 Ican [201] 1/15 1/21 I can't [32] 29/4 43/24
116/12 125/13 126/20I 173/13 173/21 225/17] 201/14 2/7 2/8 2/10 3/6 7/1 I 46/5 49/9 49/14 60/22!
126/25 127/5 127/14 I 225/24 burden [5] 32/14 7/12 8/25 9/5 10/1 I 61/25 71/18 7/11
4128/4 129/4 133/13. IPreakdown [4] 6/19 I 148/7 150/12 150/14 I 10/7 10/21 14/24 90/23 97/22 97/23
133/21 133/21 136/16) 43/1 66/24 207/22 I 201/17 15/11 16/4 21/21 24/9I 97/25 102/12 109/8
430/15 139/17 1568/9 IBreakfast [1] 30/21 Ibureaucracy [5] 25/7 25/24 26/22 114/16 137/2 140/18
Board's [2] 24/12 breakthrough [2] 95/11 97/8 97/17 27/25 31/9 32/12 142/25 149/5 151/5
7215 36/3 37/2 97/19 102/1 33/13 33/23 37/19 I 156/4 158/21 159/17
brief [2] 83/17 216/1 Ibureaucrats [1] 41/25 43/7 44/10 46/1I 166/11 185/11 188/8
bodies [9] 64/16
67/25 68/3 93/17 briefed [1] 116/8 102/19 46/6 47/3 48/24 49/8 I 188/17 196/25 221/16
117/13 121/24 141/1 [briefing [15] 81/25 I Burrows [2] 163/11 49/15 50/16 52/2 52/6I 234/4 244/20
456/23 169/24 83/2 83/15 83/22 227/2 52/8 53/9 53/24 54/20I Canadian [1] 79/23
84/24 92/9 95/5 96/23I bursaries [1] 239/23 I 54/21 54/24 55/25 I candour [1] 66/1
body [1] 73/6 96/24 97/3 99/9 112/6IBurton [1] 150/13. I 59/22 59/2461/12 cannot [11] 7/13 40/6
(69) bias - cannot
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Cc 144/20 challenges [2] 182/6 I 163/6 163/19 163/21 I 232/10
cannot... [9] 64/19 caused [6] 15/8 210/5 164/13 172/15 226/19] clarity [5] 13/22
757 4141/9 184/1 66/23 161/25 165/23 Ichallenging [1] 182/3) 226/25 227/7 227/9 I 206/8 212/6 231/18
200/5 234/1 235/6 179/17 217/4 champions [1] 68/2 I 238/6 239/23 232/9
235/12 237/23 causes [1] 243/16 Ichance [5] 4/4 4/7 I children's [1] 57/24 IClark [1] 42/15
causing [1] 180/14 I 4/8 44/2 123/13 Chisholm [1] 66/11 Iclass [1] 124/25
car Age i719 Ieautious [5] 70/1 IChancellor [11] 916 Ichoice [7] 17/14 classic [2] 57/20
capability [2] 142/6 148/2 152/15 153/15 I 80/25 98/22 99/13 17/24 18/25 22/2 93/17
185/15 154/17 101/25 102/5 105/11 I 244/21 244/23 245/13) clauses [3] 176/10
capability’ [1] 222/24 caveat [1] 223/9 105/16 110/24 112/14I choices [1] 62/24 176/11 210/13
capacity [10] 6/20 caveats [6] 196/14 125/11 choose [3] 16/11 clear [25] 15/20 22/1
18/21 23/8 23/10 197/25 198/15 198/15] Chancellor's [1] 111/1 148/10 25/15 28/9 31/22
25/20 33/3 85/24 89/2 246/5 246/13 104/4 chose [1] 121/16 34/18 52/11 60/13
141/21 142/6 cent [7] 160/13 chances [11] 74/1 Christmas [2] 184/14! 87/18 95/10 109/25
capped [1] 16/16 178/14 178/17 179/1 I 74/3 74/10 163/3 246/14 110/2 135/15 135/19
Capping [1] 13/16 17915 179/5 179/6 163/11 164/13 164/23) chunk [1] 150/6 137/7 155/1 169/15
caps [1] 25/11 central [3] 64/18 77/3I 227/7 227/9 227/11 ICI [1] 203/5 178/13 180/7 187/2
Capture [3] 6/13 142/21 230/4 circles [1] 110/4 187/2 192/18 205/12
49/21 54/3 centrally [1] 63/24 I change [48] 7/8 7/10 Icircuit [1] 103/9 207/8 240/2
careful [1] 182/17 centre [1] 76/25 7/20 29/4 29/11 33/8 Icircumspect [1] clearing [1] 30/17
carefully [2] 111/1 centric [2] 124/11 40/9 40/22 40/23 41/8) 233/2 clearly [10] 23/12
499/20 125/6 42/16 43/7 44/14 49/3I circumstances [9] 33/4 33/18 63/12
Carl [2] 136/12 century [1] 147/3 53/7 60/25 62/10 63/3] 26/22 35/16 35/25 66/20 68/13 68/18
136/18 CEO [12] 60/4 123/19) 63/21 68/15 85/1 85/6) 39/6 39/14 66/18 77/7) 158/4 206/15 239/7
carried [4] 93/7 94/8 130/4 133/24 159/19 I 110/2 113/11 114/12 I 108/2 112/10 clears [1] 77/25
402/10 172/4 168/22 169/4 169/8 I 120/13 124/23 124/23) cite [1] 35/25 client [1] 58/11
carry [7] 91/3 91/5 169/9 205/10 205/10 I 125/20 126/2 126/9 Icited [2] 105/15 close [11] 22/22
97/12 117/9 119/6 211/24 126/20 145/13 149/16) 184/13 41/25 51/9 55/10 56/7
429/13 138/4 CEOs [3] 169/23 156/19 159/25 167/18) citizen [1] 240/16 160/8 160/12 197/4
170/1 207/15 170/18 171/20 171/21) City [11] 183/14 231/20 242/23 243/19
carrying (10) e518 Ieertain [10] 8/20 I 182/11 182/15 205/23) 189/21 189/24 190/4 Iclosely [1] 4/20
91/22 93/4 93/10 22/18 41/15 100/12 I 212/19 214/1 214/2 I 190/12 190/25 191/2 Iclosing [2] 21/2
109/10 112/14 120/17I 215/8 240/15 192/1 192/5 192/6 51/11
eis BOD 160/24 177/14 205/11I changed [10] 7/12 192/25 closure [4] 20/18
32/25 33/24 39/16 Icertainly [16] 24/18 I 10/10 40/3 60/3 71/15) civil [12] 72/25 90/15 I 20/21 20/22 76/17
45/12 72/16 76/9 44/12 68/13 72/8 113/23 158/11 193/15) 120/14 125/17 131/17ICMA [1] 122/1
82/12 103/3 108/11 I 115/8 116/4 120/8 202/17 233/1 132/10 148/3 148/22 ICMG [1] 79/21
108/25 110/9 112/21 I 126/12 134/13 139/18) changes [19] 8/4 192/21 204/16 213/11ICo [4] 54/16 225/2
127/18 128/5 128/10 I 143/23 145/23 160/10] 8/11 48/16 51/1 52/3 I 242/3 241/2 245/24
129/9 140/17 145/22 I 161/7 165/1 169/10 I I 52/18 54/4 54/10 claim [13] 6/1 6/23 Icohort [9] 18/23
147/14 149/19 155/23I cetera [1] 234/18 63/17 63/23 64/4 64/4] 16/14 21/12 25/11 33/18 36/4 36/17
465/11 170/8 170/12 ICGII2] 79/19 79/22 I 65/17 69/6 152/21 25/17 28/16 28/24 38/13 38/18 39/3 39/7,
171/22 171/24 190/17/Chain [13] 15/4 107/1I 156/14 182/7 184/21 I 29/19 30/18 31/10 39/18
179/12 182/10 189/12I 207/12 32/6 242/15 coincidentally [1]
one an oie 195/24 195/25 196/24I changing [4] 44/22 Iclaimant [8] 6/18 7/3 I 227/14
223/23 235/9 197/16 201/25 212/17I 124/15 156/11 240/14] 16/20 26/11 26/11 _I collaboratively [2]
cases [25] 14/15 215/18 235/5 channels [3] 129/23 I 27/2 28/22 100/23 _ I 205/1 205/3
20/4 26/21 26/24 27/2Ichair [21] 9/8 48/23 I 168/16 240/7 claimant's [1] 21/16 Icolleagues [7] 10/6
27/24 33/8 33/21 115/25 116/10 116/25Icharge [1] 45/25 claimants [14] 12/5 I 11/9 52/1 187/12
36/16 39/18 sig I 117/24 131/2 133/18 Icharged [2] 125/10 I 13/14 13/19 14/15 I 226/23 241/13 241/25]
30/21 eels 1a5/5 134/15 135/5 135/8 I 125/20 16/13 16/24 19/11 Icome [54] 12/21 14/2
177/22 177/23 179/23I 1969/3 136/15 138/14 Icharges [1] 217/12 I 19/12 19/16 23/4 24/2) 14/24 15/18 20/22
186/16 194/6 197/13 I 139/23 139/23 140/4 Icharities [1] 222/8 I 28/14 100/25 104/23 I 31/10 41/1 41/21 55/1
198/21 208/10 208/14] 140/18 157/23 158/15I chasing [2] 74/9 claimed [1] 19/23 58/25 62/10 69/2 70/3
208/21 209/5 170/20 74/10 claims [23] 5/25 6/21I 72/6 77/18 83/16 85/5
cash [5] 43/13 76/16 Chaired [3] 120/19 Icheck [1] 46/6 10/14 10/24 16/8 I 86/4 87/19 88/17 89/4
Taare aea/17 1ea/i2) 12114 124/12 checks [6] 18/5 I 16/10 18/22 19/7 23/1] 94/18 95/1 101/19
catching [1] 40/17 [Chairman [3] 121/11 I 97/12 98/15 1499 I 29/21 31/15 31/20 I 111/18 13019 132/20
Category ti} 37/25 I 126/8 159/19 166/14 204/6 31/23 32/3 32/21 37/4] 136/11 138/8 139/21
cater [1] 11/18 chairs [1] 122/3 _IChief [5] 9/7 96/17 I 37/9 37/15 51/22 __I 144/25 146/7 146/7
caught (2] 17110 [Challenge [10] 33/6 I 121/11 124/7 175/19 I 60/23 100/11 100/18 I 147/18 151/22 154/22
Soe 92/5 147/14 148/20 Ichildhood [1] 227/12I 153/24 155/3 159/12 170/9
cause [2] 12/8 151/8 151/9 151/10 _I children [16] 57/23 Iclarified [1] 217/7 I 173/10 182/24 183/9
151/11 172/23 181/21] 57/25 74/4 74/4 163/3I clarify [2] 217/1 184/3 186/13 202/10
(70) cannot... - come
INQ00001205
INQ00001205
c
come... [6] 206/18
218/16 220/6 228/9
236/17 239/9
comes [13] 55/7
71/20 76/7 90/16
90/18 109/12 138/9
154/15 155/11 185/25)
188/1 196/21 236/18
coming [13] 29/19
31/20 35/9 43/7 79/18
91/17 96/15 102/11
130/3 168/21 188/8
205/1 221/13
comment [7] 60/23
178/20 185/7 185/12
200/21 211/14 212/15
commentary [2] 24/1
212/9
commented [1]
152/10
comments [2]
117/25 191/20
commercial [7] 80/4
90/22 90/24 145/19
146/4 154/19 205/16
commercially [1]
146/15
Commission [1]
33/21
commissioned [3]
58/21 172/3 201/20
commit [12] 30/20
30/25 59/1 200/11
232/7 238/15 245/10
245/15 245/23 246/2
246/3 246/9
commitment [11]
52/2 52/6 52/8 53/7
54/23 62/7 69/9 160/5I
202/16 204/25 223/4
commitments [2]
182/2 246/25
committed [7] 65/24
104/14 159/1 226/13
226/16 242/14 244/3
committee [14] 9/9
55/2 62/14 66/13 67/6)
67/19 67/24 68/20
124/12 135/5 158/21
187/20 207/7 219/4
committing [2] 32/1
40/20
common [5] 35/1
82/21 114/19 114/20
115/6
Commons [1] 24/17
communicate [1]
184/18
communicated [2]
135/18 184/16
communicating [1]
190/4
communication [3]
129/23 168/16 221/6
communications [1]
190/5
communities [3] 8/2
76/18 81/4
community [3] 76/3
76/10 77/10
companies [3]
120/19 120/19 121/14'
company [25] 40/1
42/16 42/18 62/25
69/14 69/15 79/21
121/17 125/24 142/5
154/9 154/13 154/19
154/20 188/7 198/4
201/4 205/16 206/12
219/21 229/15 230/22
239/4 240/3 241/14
company's [2]
219/16 235/12
comparison [2]
169/25 170/1
compatibility [1]
compensate [2]
100/4 220/12
compensation [86]
5/22 5/23 6/6 6/9 6/18
7/1 8/19 9/13 9/17
14/18 21/2 21/10 22/7)
23/22 29/17 30/17
51/5 51/9 51/16 52/9
52/14 54/5 55/9 55/15)
56/6 73/24 82/25 95/2
95/6 95/19 96/3 96/6
96/22 98/18 99/5 99/7
99/15 99/21 99/24
100/2 100/18 101/14
102/13 104/13 104/15)
104/24 105/7 106/5
107/6 107/9 108/14
112/1 134/2 138/12
138/20 149/18 153/24'
159/3 160/18 161/4
161/16 162/23 163/22)
164/4 164/22 165/2
165/24 166/6 175/15
218/17 219/8 220/3
221/15 228/5 240/17
240/24 241/15 241/16
241/18 241/22 242/9
242/9 242/14 242/20
243/20 243/21
competition [1]
146/22
complaints [2]
130/21 130/24
complete [5] 48/23
179/12 216/15 224/20)
235/4
completed [1] 3/1
completely [7] 49/11
161/9 170/11 176/17
198/7 205/21 208/10
completing [1]
216/15
complex [8] 18/21
23/6 115/2 115/3
200/21 206/8 243/14
243/22
complexity [2] 27/18
181/23
complicated [1] 22/9
components [2]
198/13 243/24
comprehensive [3]
87/4 196/18 206/21
computing [1]
200/23
conceivable [1] 34/2
concentration [1]
225/7
concept [1] 138/25
concern [6] 7/7
164/20 179/10 193/7
197/2 213/21
concerned [16]
87/16 95/5 95/18
96/21 107/8 143/18
143/20 168/9 176/7
176/20 186/19 193/5
213/19 221/12 231/19
242/19
concerning [2] 81/25
82/7
concerns [24] 24/21
31/17 31/21 34/15
66/15 76/19 101/5
132/2 132/3 132/5
132/22 133/3 135/5
136/14 136/19 136/23
137/1 137/7 137/7
158/24 176/15 192/17
205/11 207/16
conclude [3] 56/16
98/16 233/17
concluded [2] 158/18
160/16
concluding [1] 156/7
conclusion [2]
154/22 165/14
conclusions [8] 48/3
130/6 157/14 157/20
158/5 170/10 170/17
232/2
conditions [1]
210/17
conduct [5] 132/23
133/4 133/11 135/7
210/5
conducting [1] 192/9
confidence [4] 61/12
63/5 68/25 69/12
confident [3] 64/21
186/13 200/14
confirm [6] 2/8 2/10
20/24 174/23 175/4
216/23
confirmation [2]
10/20 14/25
confirmed [2] 174/11
204/1
confirming [1]
204/12
confirms [1] 9/21
confronted [1] 56/23
congratulations [1]
140/3
connected [2] 40/23
66/1
connection [1]
214/18
connects [1] 182/12
Conscious [1]
107/11
consensus [1] 73/18
consequences [1]
148/11
consequent [1]
181/6
consequential [2]
19/24 182/15
Conservative [3]
34/9 81/19 162/7
Conservatives [1]
145/23
consider [23] 13/20
13/21 17/10 18/21
20/6 20/8 31/4 32/7
34/21 44/8 55/9 56/17
57/24 66/4 69/4 73/3
101/1 185/5 195/19
195/21 221/25 238/25)
239/12
considerable [5]
17/3 20/11 52/15
63/23 169/17
considerably [2]
17/22 37/5
consideration [5]
18/9 25/6 42/11 50/14)
71/22
considerations [3]
101/9 108/9 108/21
considered [9] 11/6
20/13 25/7 29/9 31/12
33/8 165/1 197/17
205/15
considering [4] 49/5
100/16 135/25 242/8
considers [4] 58/6
190/6 199/18 199/24
consistent [6] 16/19
62/22 69/5 189/9
197/21 204/19
consistently [1] 63/6
consolation [1]
129/15
constant [2] 221/3
221/6
constantly [1] 89/2
constituency [3]
77/7 80/14 83/14
constituents [1]
40/12
constitution [1]
72/14
constitutional [4]
34/3 34/13 34/16
35/23
constructive [1]
133/23
consult [1] 149/10
consultants [2]
39/24 156/4
consultation [2]
133/20 152/23
consultations [2]
149/11 166/2
consulted [1] 143/7
consulting [3] 39/24
43/9 79/23
consumer [2] 68/2
161/13
contact [13] 3/1 37/2
37/10 37/13 37/20
74/11 82/18 128/18
163/17 190/13 190/22)
221/3 227/15
contacted [3] 36/8
206/12 226/17
containing [1] 198/5
contemplating [1]
241/21
content [4] 15/4
107/20 174/11 195/17)
contents [2] 78/24
185/13
context [14] 34/21
92/8 106/4 108/4
108/23 113/24 121/1
129/11 164/6 177/18
181/19 182/25 214/6
237/15
continue [18] 22/5
42/7 49/13 54/19
123/9 134/15 135/8
171/16 184/20 189/11
193/19 195/5 199/7
204/12 207/8 207/11
208/3 211/12
continued [8] 67/18
144/22 160/25 161/1
161/2 180/25 181/21
183/4
continues [7] 60/19
180/8 180/9 183/18
205/13 212/3 213/4
continuing [6] 61/11
193/13 212/12 222/22)
228/19 232/23
continuity [1] 207/17
contract [15] 3/2 3/3
144/21 176/10 176/12)
180/22 207/25 209/19)
(71) come... - contract
INQ00001205
INQ00001205
c
contract... [7] 209/22
210/9 210/15 210/18
214/19 218/21 223/18)
contracts [11] 161/1
161/12 187/14 222/15)
223/3 223/4 223/7
223/15 223/16 223/21
224/12
contracts’ [1] 222/20
contractual [5] 47/20
184/9 204/13 223/11
223/22
contrary [1] 125/15
contribute [8] 56/7
58/12 161/3 219/8
220/14 221/20 240/8
244/2
contributed [3] 48/11
176/24 243/12
contributing [4]
219/22 221/25 222/9
241/16
contribution [8]
55/20 159/2 220/3
220/18 220/20 238/17
241/21 242/20
contributions [3]
55/9 55/15 243/21
control [3] 142/16
211/1 211/5
controlled [1] 135/21
convenient [1] 56/18
conversation [42]
11/8 14/7 44/3 44/3
46/24 56/13 64/18
65/19 73/19 74/11
74/15 87/8 102/16
123/22 126/19 127/9
127/18 129/2 130/12
130/15 135/12 143/3
155/6 161/7 164/15
190/15 190/15 191/1
202/5 203/10 203/11
220/17 220/24 229/16
230/23 240/13 241/12,
242/2 242/17 242/21
246/8 246/10
conversation’ [2]
239/8 239/8
conversations [20]
35/3 39/12 40/8 44/12
46/18 49/15 55/24
74/19 74/24 77/15
89/8 98/12 141/2
144/17 155/5 156/18
160/1 163/18 164/3
189/23
conveyed [1] 137/15
convicted [5] 33/19
71/5 162/19 226/10
226/21
convictions [18] 6/10)
33/20 34/14 36/5
36/18 37/3 38/5 38/15
39/9 40/15 49/20 54/6
71/6 82/23 82/24
100/10 162/20 226/11
cooperate [1] 193/2
cooperating [1]
200/11
cooperation [1]
191/22
cooperative [1]
49/12
copies [1] 174/23
copy [6] 106/19
118/13 127/20 141/16)
151/23 151/25
core [7] 8/4 19/3 45/3}
126/10 126/21 151/16)
224/17
corner [1] 106/23
corporate [3] 3/4
17713 207/9
correct [25] 2/1 2/13
2/18 2/19 2/21 3/22
3/23 79/9 80/8 80/12
80/17 81/13 88/21
129/6 147/18 170/14
175/17 175/22 179/16)
180/14 183/10 198/6
215/5 233/12 235/23
corrected [1] 51/14
correction [3] 79/5
79/9 79/13
correctly [4] 51/21
86/23 87/9 189/3
correspondence [14]
13/6 165/19 180/20
182/18 184/5 191/18
196/19 202/12 204/1
205/17 208/11 211/22
212/9 235/22
correspondence's [1]
189/17
cost [15] 6/5 7/2
12/12 12/13 19/14
23/17 26/13 33/7
58/15 58/15 100/17
100/18 105/2 142/16
142/17
costs [13] 10/17
12/15 16/12 19/18
19/19 21/5 21/8 21/13)
100/19 142/19 142/21
146/3 149/14
could [102] 6/15 10/6)
11/5 11/9 11/10 12/17)
12/23 13/2 13/24 19/2)
19/8 20/10 22/5 25/25)
26/12 28/10 29/24
30/6 30/20 40/18
43/21 44/11 50/11
50/19 58/12 58/14
59/3 59/13 62/3 64/11
68/6 68/9 68/17 78/17
83/21 95/16 95/23
95/24 98/1 100/8
106/20 109/22 111/11
111/24 112/19 113/9
120/21 121/6 121/18
124/1 127/8 127/20
127/21 132/2 132/3
134/15 138/8 149/22
159/22 159/24 160/1
160/22 164/8 168/6
169/4 170/22 175/24
176/1 178/15 179/17
180/4 180/14 180/14
180/19 181/9 182/20
183/12 183/15 186/13
190/17 190/21 197/10
197/23 199/25 203/14:
209/11 209/19 212/25
213/23 214/7 216/17
218/17 229/6 230/9
230/11 230/24 230/25
231/1 231/9 234/11
238/9 238/21
couldn't [12] 41/11
72/24 95/14 125/23
125/24 128/20 131/7
185/4 196/10 197/15
198/19 207/4
counsel [2] 154/10
173/15
counted [1] 188/15
country [6] 57/20
65/8 65/18 185/20
187/14 239/5
couple [1] 107/13
course [35] 7/6 9/7
9/15 14/16 14/19
17/16 17/25 34/13
38/25 43/8 51/3 52/12
52/15 53/9 69/5
117/22 118/3 123/25
130/1 139/19 154/3
162/1 166/7 168/19
169/7 169/14 169/15
182/20 186/16 197/14
207/5 221/9 224/2
224/11 241/12
court [15] 45/12
47/14 48/12 82/12
82/23 98/4 103/3
114/24 148/23 152/25
210/10 210/11 211/13
225/8 235/23
courts [2] 35/2
148/17
Coutts [1] 80/5
cover [7] 12/2 71/8
114/23 162/21 163/18
176/8 179/11
coverage [1] 42/24
covered [4] 38/1
162/22 165/17 180/10
covering [2] 16/3
134/22
covers [2] 12/16
93/15
Covid [1] 156/17
create [7] 100/24
103/9 132/12 148/12
149/8 150/18 158/8
created [3] 94/21
149/22 166/15
creates [2] 103/17
138/14
creating [6] 18/20
149/1 149/5 150/3
150/20 164/11
creation [1] 86/20
creative [3] 239/22
240/9 240/10
Credence [1] 182/12
Creswell [2] 136/12
136/18
crime [2] 192/10
234/13
criminal [14] 33/21
40/20 177/6 191/8
192/22 192/24 194/6
194/11 195/14 196/4
200/2 204/3 210/22
213/11
crisis [1] 124/2
criteria [1] 38/8
criticised [2] 16/23
23/25
criticising [2] 48/14
149/13
criticism [5] 100/2
100/5 150/24 151/2
169/16
criticisms [4] 19/22
23/15 47/13 233/2
cross [5] 3/15 35/7
35/17 36/2 99/4
Cross-government
[1] 3/15
cross-heading [1]
99/4
cross-party [3] 35/7
35/17 36/2
crossed [2] 96/5
96/16
crossrefer [1] 105/19
crossreference [1]
107/23
Crown [1] 202/23
crusade [1] 126/3
crystallisation [1]
105/4
culminating [1]
60/17
culpability [1] 245/3
cultural [9] 7/8 7/10
63/3 125/21 126/5
142/4 146/1 173/4
205/13
culture [11] 7/11
44/21 60/3 60/15
60/20 61/11 61/15
126/1 126/2 148/2
210/5
curiosity [2] 206/8
214/4
curious [3] 197/7
197/8 199/3
current [19] 8/22
21/7 24/9 55/11 145/5
152/21 158/7 175/13
178/4 178/8 183/20
188/5 198/2 201/5
209/15 210/22 212/24,
215/14 224/13
currently [14] 45/25
48/7 67/12 76/14
76/21 178/12 183/5
184/6 184/12 194/20
199/8 204/16 209/24
241/22
customer [1] 187/22
customer's [1]
146/25
customers [1]
222/23
cut [3] 38/5 101/25
173/14
cut-off [1] 173/14
CWU [1] 68/1
D
daily [1] 178/22
damaged [1] 58/2
Dan [2] 217/25
218/14
danger [2] 61/18
62/2
dangerous [1] 224/9
Daniel [1] 218/5
Darfoor [1] 124/24
data [71] 6/14 54/2
177/14 177/14 180/17)
191/6 191/13 193/17
193/19 194/2 194/14
194/17 194/20 194/21
195/1 196/3 200/3
200/12 203/4 203/24
204/7 208/24 210/7
210/25 210/25 211/4
211/19 212/25 213/5
213/5 213/13 213/13
214/5 214/6 215/12
217/21 217/22 218/10
223/1 232/25 233/4
233/14 233/16 233/20
234/1 234/3 234/4
234/5 234/11 234/18
235/1 235/2 235/7
235/8 235/13 235/25
236/3 236/9 236/12
236/13 236/13 236/18
236/20 236/21 236/22,
236/23 236/24 237/1
237/2 237/4 237/16
(72) contract... - data
INQ00001205
INQ00001205
D 134/14 152/20 172/10I delegated [5] 85/15 I 93/16 did [74] 2/25 3/3
a aa aot] 230/21 86/10 88/19 169/17 Idepend [1] 162/3 I 20/24 28/8 35/23
date ey Fearne decided [4] 38/9 90/6I 170/13 depending [1] 12/17 I 40/12 40/15 78/22
135/9 155/24 delegating [2] 88/6 Idepends [3] 89/21 I 84/22 89/18 91/23
53/24 74/9 74/12 79/8)
83/24 84/5 84/23 85/9
116/3 133/1 136/10
141/5 209/5 217/23
232/3
dated [18] 1/25 78/16]
79/3 83/18 98/25
98/25 99/2 104/8
104/11 116/1 116/4
174/14 174/16 174/17)
174/19 174/21 205/6
232/17
dates [4] 20/22 21/2
84/5 159/21
David [2] 86/9 87/10
day [42] 6/21 88/11
88/11 88/15 88/15
88/19 88/19 92/22
94/8 94/8 94/22 94/22
112/3 112/3 131/6
131/6 132/7 143/15
143/15 144/21 144/21
153/25 153/25 156/9
187/17 188/6 188/6
191/6 194/3 194/3
194/21 194/21 197/9
197/9 208/3 208/3
218/2 224/14 225/8
228/25 229/1 247/3
days [5] 86/7 132/24
218/6 218/6 218/15
DBT [8] 46/1 56/2
57/14 60/16 86/20
89/18 101/4 101/22
DBT/UKGI [1] 60/16
dead [1] 246/17
deadline [4] 30/7
30/13 30/16 31/9
deadlines [1] 6/21
deal [8] 25/21 31/2
32/16 62/7 115/23
124/2 239/3 243/16
dealing [15] 28/3
40/7 42/25 51/5 138/3
147/24 153/24 156/16}
156/20 156/22 158/7
167/15 170/7 218/8
243/5
deals [1] 243/20
dealt [4] 32/22 98/10
128/3 218/14
decade [1] 65/4
decades [1] 243/15
December [6] 51/13
174/16 180/21 211/22)
231/21 232/8
decent [1] 17/11
decide [12] 29/15
50/23 88/24 89/7 90/5)
90/5 91/6 109/9
decides [1] 155/20
decision [30] 18/11
22/15 23/5 23/12
23/18 24/7 27/3 35/22
43/24 57/10 73/9
85/24 88/9 88/16
88/18 88/22 89/9
93/11 98/14 114/2
124/23 147/24 148/20)
148/20 149/6 154/23
165/17 169/18 172/12)
244/14
decision-making [1]
decisions [30] 3/18
6/7 17/23 18/14 26/25
38/11 49/18 50/6
50/16 53/19 53/25
56/24 71/19 72/2
88/23 89/2 89/4 90/24
91/13 93/4 110/5
123/12 126/1 143/15
146/5 147/10 148/6
166/1 166/3 172/18
decline [1] 8/6
decode [1] 179/10
deemed [2] 74/20
202/23
defects [14] 180/8
183/4 183/9 183/18
183/21 184/11 184/16)
184/21 186/2 186/3
187/6 189/10 199/7
204/9
defects’ [1] 219/5
defence [1] 113/13
defensible [1] 24/4
define [1] 91/9
definitely [4] 76/24
84/8 161/20 170/15
definition [5] 12/18
58/24 180/1 180/2
201/23
definitions [1] 12/2
definitive [3] 92/8
92/19 232/3
degree [3] 31/4 73/17I
185/3
DEL [1] 9/24
delay [8] 13/21 15/6
15/8 31/14 53/2
165/23 216/24 217/4
delayed [2] 53/2 97/4
delaying [1] 216/22
delays [3] 16/12
52/22 149/18
delegate [2] 86/12
86/16
88/9
delegation [9] 85/4
85/20 86/2 86/24 87/5
87/24 87/25 88/1
92/21
deleted [1] 119/25
deliberate [1] 154/25
deliberation [1]
154/18
delineated [1] 88/5
deliver [10] 27/16
34/19 97/13 107/22
146/19 148/13 150/6
156/9 161/10 204/13
delivered [13] 5/19
22/6 24/4 29/17 32/16
33/2 46/11 76/21 95/6
96/22 107/9 165/9
165/11
delivering [12] 15/24
63/9 63/9 63/22 76/22
99/14 103/2 108/6
151/12 154/5 181/25
207/25
delivery [13] 3/14
21/17 45/21 47/4
104/20 105/7 111/21
142/17 149/12 150/9
172/4 181/9 181/22
demand [3] 9/25
77/13 158/10
demands [2] 10/19
138/24
demonstrate [1]
53/25
demonstrated [1]
54/11
demutualisation [2]
124/19 155/4
denied [1] 97/5
department [38] 3/12)
4/11 5/13 8/21 9/3
9/10 32/3 38/20 43/10
46/7 46/12 46/16
46/20 50/17 63/4
71/22 72/23 73/7 73/8
74/19 81/3 85/2 85/5
87/7 88/14 102/23
109/24 111/9 117/16
134/13 134/24 136/12
138/2 141/10 146/14
221/4 221/4 232/11
Department's [1]
136/19
departmental [5]
9/24 44/23 73/14
118/13 133/2
departments [3] 4/17)
62/11 87/16
departments’ [1]
93/13 93/25
deprived [1] 68/5
depth [1] 182/23
derive [1] 109/1
describe [4] 11/20
84/25 99/23 105/24
described [9] 7/8
16/22 80/14 86/25
87/3 92/21 167/15
177/12 242/23
describes [1] 85/17
describing [1]
109/20
description [1] 92/25
deserve [4] 30/2
31/24 32/8 104/16
deserved [2] 34/5
34/6
design [1] 25/4
designation [1] 11/2
desirable [1] 14/10
desire [1] 44/6
desk [2] 96/5 96/16
despite [7] 7/24
75/11 75/19 75/25
105/17 121/16 172/21
detail [16] 8/17 50/12
82/14 83/4 83/7 85/22
87/8 90/25 102/12
131/21 136/1 136/24
137/10 144/2 202/15
228/18
detailed [2] 6/19
177/11
details [5] 24/17
38/16 128/18 190/22
190/24
detected [1] 183/19
detecting [1] 64/13
determinant [1]
18/15
determination [1]
29/11
determine [5] 47/25
51/25 186/23 234/12
237/23
determined [1] 99/19
detrimental [1] 62/25
devastated [1] 238/7
development [4]
10/23 143/8 144/7
144/12
developments [1]
44/23
devolved [2] 38/25
39/1
diagram [9] 84/9
89/10 91/19 92/2 92/7
92/8 92/19 92/25
94/11
93/10 94/2 94/15
96/12 103/1 106/2
1140/1 111/2 113/10
4117/2 117/3 117/19
118/4 119/11 120/24
121/23 12215 12/8
122/9 122/12 122/21
123/7 126/17 127/6
134/8 136/1 139/9
139/10 139/16 143/10
144/16 145/24 153/18
156/1 159/12 159/14
159/17 159/18 160/11
162/23 162/25 163/14
163/17 163/21 169/7
170/17 171/24 197/6
213/22 219/12 219/20
222/22 227/21 227/25
232/10 233/7 233/9
237/18 240/16 243/10
didn't [45] 4/5 15/19
17/17 18/19 38/6
69/21 69/21 72/6
96/12 98/19 109/14
114/25 117/6 117/14
117/13 118/3 118/8
118/11 119/16 120/22
121/8 12/6 122/10
122/17 122/23 123/2
4127/5 127/7 130/8
131/8 132/15 135/20
137/16 139/12 149/21
159/23 197/10 201/15
214/1 219/20 22213
227/24 229/17 243/8
243/11
die [1] 95/18
difference [3] 89/5
112/23 154/8
different [51] 10/17
23/16 23/17 32/22
36/22 36/22 38/21
38/21 38/24 39/6
39/15 41/7 43/1 43/21
52/17 54/2 55/8 62/11
63/2 63/25 65/22
88/25 103/18 112/20
112/21 125/3 130/3
130/4 130/5 130/6
130/14 135/18 143/14)
146/14 156/23 161/10)
168/21 168/22 169/1
169/12 169/13 169/14)
170/9 170/11 172/18
173/2 188/10 201/12
211/13 231/7 236/13
differently [2] 161/9
(73) date - difficult
INQ00001205
INQ00001205
D discovered [1] 89/15 89/23 91/3 does [36] 9/20 11/15 I 230/10 231/12 233/11
difficult... [14] 30/15 119/14 91/23 92/12 92/22 20/1 35/13 43/7 60/4 I 237/8 237/10 237/22
123/18 124/1 145/15 Idiscrepancies [9] 92/23 95/16 95/23 76/14 87/20 91/8 244/11
178/22 179/1 179/3 I 95/24 97/25 98/5 108/21 125/6 129/1 I done [39] 32/10 33/5
145/17 146/3 146/23
147/12 200/24 212/21
228/25 229/1 230/22
230/24
difficulties [5] 48/10
52/25 58/17 147/10
169/5
difficulty [1] 225/12
Digital [1] 80/10
diminished [1] 21/15
direct [10] 37/10 54/7I
54/9 56/13 109/8
129/25 147/5 168/18
169/20 170/21
directed [1] 123/5
direction [38] 48/19
73/16 73/18 89/17
89/19 90/2 90/9 90/11
91/6 91/21 93/11 94/4,
101/7 105/22 106/10
106/12 107/20 107/25)
108/3 108/11 109/4
109/12 109/16 109/23)
109/24 110/14 110/17)
110/22 111/11 120/18)
143/14 143/19 154/9
154/10 155/1 155/7
157/7 157/10
directions [2] 93/24
109/6
directly [10] 37/11
37/20 51/16 54/20
102/5 122/1 142/20
143/9 182/13 196/20
directly-managed [1]
142/20
director [12] 54/25
80/5 80/10 93/14
93/14 117/16 124/14
125/23 133/19 135/4
158/20 175/16
directors [5] 124/13
125/22 126/9 126/21
139/6
directs [2] 51/11
51/17
disagree [1] 158/2
disagreement [1]
8/21
disagreements [1]
8
disappeared [1]
145/5
disappointed [1]
112/16
disappointing [2]
113/17 113/20
disaster [1] 237/21
disclosure [3] 38/23
39/16 48/10
179/15 179/22 180/5
194/23 195/3 199/24
discrepancy [1]
188/14
discretion [2] 27/24
132/12
discuss [7] 54/20
69/10 69/17 74/12
191/21 224/3 224/8
discussed [5] 20/18
49/2 67/6 183/17
205/9
discussing [3] 190/7
209/24 215/13
discussion [8] 45/17
70/4 163/25 164/11
205/18 211/16 239/18
244/7
discussions [8]
11/13 36/11 49/5 58/9)
59/14 156/3 164/7
208/11
dishonest [1] 131/23
dismiss [3] 121/2
135/9 139/4
dismissal [3] 115/23
132/19 138/7
dismissed [2] 117/23
119/1
dispassionate [1]
114/3
disposed [1] 119/24
dispute [3] 47/23
134/4 215/18
disregarded [1]
133/17
disrespectful [2]
42/3 133/13
dissatisfaction [1]
178/12
dissatisfied [4] 25/10I
25/17 178/14 178/15
dissimilar [1] 160/17
distinction [2] 18/19
43/4
distrust [1] 217/18
diversity [1] 126/4
divorced [1] 61/25
do [190] 1/14 3/25
5/7 5/14 6/4 7/10 7/17
10/16 11/25 12/3 17/8)
21/13 22/4 22/17
23/10 25/25 29/6
29/16 30/25 31/8
31/13 40/2 45/6 46/16
47/2 50/4 52/13 55/10
62/3 63/24 64/1 65/23
68/22 75/14 76/1
76/20 77/19 86/23
88/24 89/6 89/12
99/12 99/12 100/19
102/7 103/4 103/5
103/15 106/19 110/3
110/8 110/8 111/1
112/19 113/2 114/18
114/22 114/23 115/1
115/24 119/20 121/5
121/18 121/21 121/21
122/16 123/17 124/10
124/20 125/16 125/22
126/6 127/3 129/20
131/16 132/15 134/10
135/14 138/2 140/13
140/14 140/15 140/22
141/1 143/13 146/23
147/2 147/2 147/11
147/12 147/16 148/4
148/9 148/10 148/22
148/24 149/6 150/1
151/3 151/6 152/6
152/7 155/4 158/15
159/14 159/22 160/7
160/19 160/20 161/15
161/25 162/6 162/9
164/20 164/21 165/5
165/7 166/11 166/16
166/17 169/11 170/12
171/21 171/21 172/8
172/23 173/1 179/7
179/19 180/3 185/5
185/11 187/19 188/4
188/16 189/12 196/9
200/10 201/3 201/11
203/23 205/20 207/2
209/4 211/6 211/20
218/9 219/1 219/10
219/11 219/21 220/25
221/24 223/25 224/4
224/8 225/10 229/5
229/11 229/12 229/19
230/25 231/4 233/24
235/18 236/18 237/21
237/21 237/22 240/24
241/5 241/15 242/7
242/25 243/11 243/24
245/11 246/7
document [15] 92/10
144/25 151/21 152/1
152/3 152/6 152/9
152/10 157/8 185/12
186/5 195/8 201/13
222/12 232/16
documentary [6]
1114/7 112/22 113/6
113/10 161/22 208/21
documentation [3]
187/10 187/25 218/10
documents [7] 133/7
134/19 136/4 153/22
186/10 208/18 211/16
143/20 144/11 148/19)
149/25 161/15 161/18)
162/12 167/4 167/5
17715 177/13 177/17
184/23 185/1 189/2
204/16 207/21 217/3
219/21 230/1 231/19
231/22 234/14 241/6
doesn't [12] 59/17
109/7 118/24 131/7
146/5 146/14 150/16
155/18 158/3 158/10
174/13 188/13
doing [49] 4/18 34/3
35/5 52/1 54/12 73/7
77/15 77/20 83/13
86/19 90/18 91/25
94/14 98/20 103/6
103/14 103/16 103/17)
103/19 103/20 107/10)
113/3 114/14 117/18
122/7 122/10 122/23
122/25 123/3 127/19
129/17 130/18 131/22)
134/13 135/14 135/16)
138/9 153/23 161/8
161/11 161/19 163/15)
169/3 170/6 171/25
202/4 202/9 239/21
240/5
domain [3] 23/15
50/7 72/4
don't [94] 8/8 17/2
17/20 22/20 31/7
35/23 37/12 42/21
43/14 46/14 50/10
50/18 51/23 53/21
64/1 72/15 73/3 73/5
73/10 74/2 76/5 77/4
88/8 90/4 90/24 95/20
96/9 96/9 98/3 102/20
103/12 109/17 110/23)
111/23 115/4 117/5
119/9 119/9 119/9
120/1 120/3 125/12
126/7 130/23 131/22
132/4 132/5 132/15
136/24 137/3 138/4
138/22 142/22 146/7
146/7 147/15 147/117
148/23 150/17 151/25)
153/22 154/8 161/3
164/25 169/9 171/8
171/18 177/22 185/8
186/11 186/20 188/18)
189/4 189/15 197/12
201/6 201/6 201/13
201/14 209/1 209/8
210/13 218/7 220/23
224/6 228/17 229/3
33/7 56/11 58/14
72/20 87/11 87/17
96/9 97/6 97/9 102/20,
108/16 110/10 112/7
113/6 113/8 127/1
140/19 140/23 140/24)
145/13 149/21 153/20)
155/18 155/21 160/15)
161/17 164/8 166/3
170/25 172/5 176/19
202/6 208/4 224/13
238/21 240/24 246/18
door [10] 29/20
41/18 57/17 95/23
103/24 117/11 153/11
157/25 159/25 166/18)
double [2] 179/5
179/23
doubled [1] 6/2
doubt [3] 129/15
130/11 179/7
down [75] 3/10 7/23
18/7 18/8 19/1 19/2
20/16 21/17 22/12
23/2 23/6 27/20 28/13
28/22 30/19 42/7
43/24 57/19 72/22
87/23 89/14 92/3 95/1
104/6 106/14 108/20
115/19 118/13 123/24)
124/4 124/7 127/6
128/22 131/24 132/18)
132/22 133/10 139/21
141/13 144/25 148/19)
148/24 149/12 150/16)
158/7 166/6 166/17
178/19 180/24 182/25)
183/15 184/3 185/20
187/14 190/9 195/10
197/3 202/15 215/23
218/16 218/22 218/24
219/24 220/25 221/19
222/16 224/2 224/7
227/22 231/3 231/25
232/18 243/11 245/17)
246/9
Downey [2] 163/10
227/11
draft [3] 141/5 141/8
168/14
drafted [1] 67/5
drama [1] 112/22
draw [1] 183/1
drawer [1] 72/23
drawing [1] 196/19
drawn [1] 50/11
driving [1] 7/8
dropping [1] 87/12
due [16] 7/5 12/10
19/20 19/23 64/10
(74) difficult... - due
INQ00001205
INQ00001205
D
due... [11] 103/25
163/6 181/5 182/20
197/13 209/22 219/1
22119 224/2 224/11
241/12
during [12] 8/23 13/9
96/23 170/23 198/8
205/17 218/20 227/12
227/16 227/21 228/20
233/15
duties [1] 87/13
duty [2] 19/6 65/25
dysfunctional [1]
158/9
E
each [9] 17/23 53/25
66/2 104/23 142/12
192/24 208/8 224/22
227/23
earlier [29] 26/16
27/18 40/5 60/8 74/22
108/5 112/22 130/12
134/11 135/13 136/22)
149/21 152/1 157/10
161/17 180/11 196/23)
198/4 200/20 206/6
211/14 212/15 216/20
220/16 220/22 234/24
235/4 236/22 241/24
earliest [1] 46/10
early [6] 74/12
131/14 159/22 207/13}
211/4 226/18
earn [1] 40/24
earning [1] 76/5
easier [1] 32/14
easily [1] 147/11
easy [3] 27/16 35/2
145/21
economic [1] 96/14
economically [1]
68/5
edited [1] 178/1
education [7] 57/23
58/4 80/19 172/11
229/13 229/17 238/24
effect [9] 51/15 75/6
91/15 91/22 93/4
93/10 93/23 238/4
238/10
effective [5] 25/23
66/23 68/16 68/18
142/9
effectively [12] 14/16)
17/18 20/4 25/15
64/22 85/4 87/5 87/15
97/5 145/21 183/22
220/6
effectiveness [1]
44/21
efficiency [1] 148/11
efficient [2] 16/8
142/117
efforts [3] 11/10
37/14 181/17
egregious [1] 4/24
either [16] 21/11 27/3)
32/10 50/20 73/13
76/21 114/13 117/20
131/8 136/17 190/22
214/15 214/23 223/22
233/11 235/21
elaborate [1] 89/23
elderly [1] 16/25
elected [1] 3/2
election [10] 3/3 4/6
5/21 6/8 14/11 32/18
33/12 35/9 35/10
72/11
electronic [2] 78/22
79/11
electronically [1]
78/23
element [4] 14/7
56/16 59/6 74/23
i
36/18 38/8
eligible [3] 12/4
37/17 37/24
else [9] 12/1 111/23
112/20 168/1 212/20
230/6 235/2 236/8
236/18
elsewhere [1] 103/18)
email [22] 12/24 16/3
106/13 107/1 107/2
128/24 134/21 189/19)
190/10 192/2 195/24
195/25 197/2 197/16
198/25 201/15 203/17)
203/18 215/18 217/8
217/14 218/5
emails [1] 216/20
embarrassment [2]
121/6 135/21
emerge [1] 22/24
emerged [1] 210/4
emotive [1] 224/7
employees [2]
176/14 238/10
Employment [2]
46/12 138/7
enable [2] 47/19
47/20
Enabling [1] 142/8
enclose [1] 195/24
encourage [2] 105/5
162/8
encouraged [2]
112/16 212/5
end [60] 22/20 45/6
45/7 75/8 95/15 98/4
102/24 110/11 111/2
114/18 148/23 148/24:
156/9 159/24 161/13
180/9 180/11 180/12
180/19 181/2 181/6
181/12 182/2 182/4
187/6 187/6 187/7
187/7 187/17 187/19
188/12 188/15 188/16
189/11 200/14 200/14:
200/25 202/2 202/2
202/7 209/22 220/7
220/8 221/13 226/13
229/24 230/2 230/12
230/15 230/17 230/20
231/10 231/19 242/25
243/4 243/25 244/10
244/14 244/16 245/7
endeavours [1]
238/23
ended [4] 89/8 130/2
168/21 178/20
ending [1] 144/19
ends [2] 87/23
202/13
endured [1] 82/16
enforcement [9]
177/18 192/20 193/17
194/5 205/14 213/10
233/3 233/5 233/21
engage [14] 203/22
204/1 205/20 207/2
207/19 208/5 208/6
229/9 229/11 230/3
231/5 231/9 239/9
239/17
engaged [4] 45/12
101/13 133/12 207/24:
engagement [9] 3/15
57/13 102/8 162/8
229/24 230/10 230/20
230/24 231/16
engagements [2]
143/21 211/12
engaging [1] 198/12
engineer [1] 79/19
engineers [1] 186/23
engrossed [1] 83/8
enormous [3] 126/6
176/24 181/14
enough [9] 102/10
103/19 112/18 113/2
113/9 171/11 187/10
246/15 246/15
enquiries [1] 196/17
Enright [4] 54/15
241/2 245/24 246/9
ensure [13] 12/9
16/17 19/14 61/15
67/14 67/21 69/13
107/10 131/10 142/10
163/13 164/12 195/5
ensures [2] 24/5
220/4
ensuring [8] 62/14
87/11 90/8 98/18
104/14 104/22 144/21
165/8
entire [5] 150/24
158/11 189/15 196/24)
200/14
entirely [8] 1/16 63/7
86/11 86/16 164/24
173/2 195/22 212/11
entitled [2] 19/9
169/12
entity [3] 90/20
145/19 145/24
entrepreneurial [1]
238/23
entry [1] 179/6
envelope [1] 85/13
environment [2]
146/24 200/21
environments [1]
206/9
envisaged [1] 55/23
envisages [1] 210/1
equal [1] 19/14
Equalities [2] 83/10
83/11
equally [4] 18/24
150/19 229/7 240/12
equipment [2]
181/20 237/16
equivalent [1] 190/22!
Ernst [1] 184/25
err [1] 98/17
error [2] 188/19
188/25
errors [16] 180/8
183/4 183/9 183/18
183/21 184/11 184/15)
184/21 186/2 186/2
187/5 189/10 199/7
204/9 219/4 236/14
escalate [1] 205/10
escalation [6] 85/23
102/2 102/3 102/4
102/11 137/18
essence [1] 242/7
essential [3] 145/12
173/4 195/2
essentially [20] 9/19
14/11 18/21 51/17
73/7 83/2 86/21 86/24
94/2 101/16 102/2
105/10 109/20 112/23)
143/22 153/2 159/1
159/11 160/7 193/16
establish [3] 65/10
104/11 204/19
established [4] 14/10
175/16 191/5 204/17
establishing [1]
191/6
estate [1] 3/4
estimated [1] 223/3
et [1] 234/18
et cetera [1] 234/18
Europe [2] 175/20
188/7
European [2] 54/25
158/20
even [21] 8/4 9/16
31/8 31/20 38/6 47/3
62/3 77/6 84/6 85/4
87/21 92/20 103/24
132/14 146/12 147/13)
149/19 155/4 156/22
198/14 229/3
evening [1] 208/1
event [4] 15/10 116/5
190/5 209/23
events [1] 170/10
eventually [3] 111/5
111/10 137/4
ever [5] 10/15 42/13
117/6 159/12 187/21
every [12] 18/11 61/7
76/9 93/1 97/6 100/23,
114/14 146/24 148/12)
148/20 148/22 191/6
everybody [9] 77/24
110/5 146/21 150/5
150/19 161/10 218/9
232/2 232/5
everyone [6] 12/3
115/21 150/19 165/14}
173/14 238/8
everyone's [2] 6/25
125/1
everything [18] 4/11
4/13 5/12 7/21 85/21
87/19 92/9 130/23
135/11 144/23 150/4
179/11 196/25 199/1
212/20 227/23 230/15
230/17
evidence [92] 10/8
24/21 25/6 25/7 37/25)
46/4 51/10 54/9 54/13
55/2 55/12 55/22
59/12 60/2 66/11
66/12 71/10 75/5
75/11 77/19 81/17
99/1 104/10 139/12
144/7 148/16 149/23
152/2 155/12 158/21
158/24 160/6 163/12
166/3 168/15 169/15
173/7 175/10 176/9
4177/1 177/7 177/11
177125 179/22 184/5
185/24 186/12 187/3
187/5 187/21 192/8
195/13 195/23 196/5
196/6 196/13 196/17
197/21 198/8 198/20
199/17 200/8 201/8
202/19 202/21 202/23
203/1 206/6 210/3
213/18 219/1 220/6
(75) due... - evidence
INQ00001205
INQ00001205
E 85/4 239/2 failed [5] 63/6 66/19 Ifeatures [1] 14/8
evidence... [20]. existing [13] 11/24 Iexplanations [2] 66/22 133/23 153/3 I February [21] 80/21
220/10 220/11 220/16! 14/21 57/6 67/11 103/7 199/23 failing [1] 60/17 81/8 81/10 81/14
2241/7 2241/7 221/10 68/17 141/25 181/5 I exploratory [1] failings [2] 67/2 81/23 81/25 82/9 83/2
221/13 226/12 226/13 222/4 222/23 223/8 I 190/14 176/20 83/18 83/20 84/23
227/16 231/25 233/25 223/15 223/21 228/4 Iexplore [4] 69/10 failure [5] 38/22 85/9 86/7 96/1 102/9
234/24 235/3 236/11 Iexists [1] 67/12 105/5 190/18 231/2 I 39/15 53/5 181/8 116/8 184/13 198/25
236/25 237/2 237/12 exit [1] 210/2 Export [1] 122/2 181/13 211/4 211/7 236/23
243/9 245/2 exoneration [1] expressed [9] 57/25 Ifailures [4] 142/1 fed [5] 29/1 122/12
evidential [2] 32/13 39/20 75/10 101/5 136/14 I 176/4 176/7 220/12 I 183/24 186/2 201/25
32/22 expand [1] 67/11 136/19 136/23 137/6 Ifair [21] 5/6 5/14 5/18I Federation [1] 60/1
evidentially [1] 191/5 expanding [1] 201/22) 158/24 159/20 6/6 7/3 17/25 18/23 Ifeed [1] 189/3
exact [1] 108/20 expansion [2] 11/15 Iexpressing [1] 27/1 I 20/13 96/3 104/15 feedback [5] 28/5
exactly [13] 9/10 117 expression [1] 99/10) 104/24 105/7 138/23 I 51/7 54/8 203/8
11/20 16/2 89/23 92/8IexPect [11] 4/5 13/8 Iextend [6] 11/23 150/18 165/8 165/8 =I 203/16
92/12 116/3 168/25 141/14 143/12 144/1 57/10 100/13 140/3 I 165/14 204/19 225/20/feel [17] 14/15 17/11
144/8 144/16 186/21 I 144/17 192/5 228/6 228/15 25/5 50/13 54/13 58/2
177/12 179/13 196/23
208/9 234/3 tati ‘
examine [5] 48/24 expectation [1]
211/11 220/13 244/11 extended [1] 200/25 Ifairly [11] 12/1 18/14 I 63/10 72/15 73/10
extension [10] 12/8 I 50/7 63/19 72/9 73/4 I 76/1 77/13 97/8
49/1 49/4 167/10 94/12 180/22 208/2 209/18 I 122/4 133/7 138/13 I 109/15 120/22 197/10}
205/22 expected [6] 10/15 I 210/1 210/8 210/17 I 138/16 233/6 198/7 220/23
examined [1] 202/2 19/8 146/24 176/5 211/17 221/6 237/25 Ifairness [5] 16/17 I feeling [3] 7/3 125/8
193/15 232/25 extensions [1] 12/4 I 18/17 189/7 198/10 I 190/16
example [26] 5/9
expecting [5] 111/7 Iextensive [1] 46/17 I 212/17 feels [1] 131/2
typa Ese aaa 4715) 140/13 140/14 140/15Iextensively [1] 60/25Ifaith [5] 33/22 69/7 Ifees [2] 21/9 21/16
88/1391/25 93/18 I 14/3 extent [8] 10/10 69/19 130/21 191/13 Ifell [1] 117/7
95/14 130/4 131/5 exPedited [3] 14/17 I 51/23 55/6 105/3__—Ifall [4] 10/24 22/18 I felt [23] 32/4 32/5
154/16 161/21 168/22 39/10 50/13 205/23 223/7 223/8 I 94/16 144/24 34/8 45/23 69/20
178/19 186/8 186/13 IexPenditure [4] 9/24 I 246/25 fallen [4] 14/11 71/25 7216 72/15
488/10 188/17 188/20] 9/25 11/3 21/16 external [2] 39/23 fallout [2] 153/25 I 73/17 108/23 130/7
193/8 201/8 218/13 [expensive [2] 61/20 I 201/20 156/17 137/24 160/21 169/4
examples [1] 176/22 I 114/17 extra [6] 66/17 falls [1] 223/9 197/14 198/18 206/11
exceeds [1] 16/17 [experience [13] 8/23 I 100/18 124/2 149/1 false [2] 119/15 206/14 207/12 213/25
excellent [1] 123/7 I 143/23 143/24 143/25) 188/12 188/13 192/22 219/17 233/22 238/5
excessive [1] 150/14I 144/1 179/16 196/13 Iextrapolating [1] _ I familiar [7] 8/5 33/15 Ifemale [1] 126/3
exchange [3] 12/24 I 229/2 237/20 240/5 I 33/26 82/16 177/22 189/19 I few [13] 5/5 15/20
74/21 189/19 240/11 240/24 246/6 \extreme [1] 75/8 189/20 232/18 20/21 30/10 93/18
exchanges [4] 35/15 I@xPerienced [7] extremely [3] 4/7 I families [23] 57/18 I 103/8 115/5 180/23
38/11 30/13 73/13 I 49/24 163/6 163/19 I 113/20 121/4 58/16 58/25 59/15 I 182/20 182/21 182/21
Exchequer [8] 80/22 I 104/13 178/25 179/2 Ieye [1] 54/19 73/23 162/23 163/7 I 211/2 218/23
05/25 96/7 96/11 210/23 FO I 168/23 164/2 164/4 fifth [4] 174/20 175/1
96/12 96/13 98/22 IexPeriences [3] FS 164/5 164/9 165/6 I 175/25 209/19
102/5 164/19 179/8 227/13 Iface [3] 100/3 100/5 I 221/17 226/14 226/16] figure [8] 9/14 10/7
excise [1] 134/17 I@xPeriencing [2] 219/7 227/13 238/5 238/24 I 11/15 160/22 160/23
excluding [2] 78/20 I 178/17 179/15 faced [1] 210/6 239/23 240/6 240/16 I 178/25 221/19 229/20
expert [18] 73/3 facilitate [1] 210/2 I 244/4 figure 8 [1] 178/25
woh es 1] 1037 I 178/5 195/13 196/4 facing [1] 68/23 family [10] 11/14 I figures [2] 84/7
Exec [1] 124/7 196/5 196/12 199/22 Ifact [32] 18/13 22/25 I 11/21 11/23 58/19 I 179/7
execute [1] 22913 I 199/23 200/1 200/10 I 23/7 31/14 36/20 49/9) 58/24 59/7 98/7 final [15] 2/7 29/11
executive [8] 66/21 I 200/12 200/17 202/19] 51/25 52/10 83/8 108/16 159/6 241/19 I 37/6 39/22 141/9
202/21 202/23 202/25I 86/18 93/3 106/17 Ifar [19] 24/10 54/21 I 152/14 153/14 154/22
12011 133/14 13916 117/25 121/2 124/22
175/19 175/19 207/13] 203/21 220/7 72/8 103/13 110/3 I 157/1 195/8 218/16
expertise [4] 67/16 I 124/22 125/1 125/16 I 115/3 133/25 143/20 I 220/8 222/11 223/20
ol vets tt 90/25 241/6 242/1 I 125/19 129/16 149/17I 163/25 169/20 176/7 I 231/21
213/18 EXPG0000007 [1] _I 157/7 168/4 197/21 I 184/8 185/22 186/18 finally [5] 13/25 80/9
executives [5] 178/6 202/8 208/18 211/1 I 188/20 209/9 231/19 I 155/11 174/20 195/7
154/25 150/18 197/6 IexPlain [4] 91/8 211/20 212/9 213/14 I 242/19 244/11 Finance [1] 122/2
208/1 245/20 108/2 180/4 192/16 I 231/2 240/2 fashioned [1] 33/3 Ifinances [1] 104/22
exercising [2] 109/19 explained [2] 197/16 Ifactor [1] 23/18 faster [4] 22/6 95/8 I financial [16] 20/5
193/3 228/3 factors [3] 20/8 139/2 148/6 55/6 100/20 141/22
exist [4] 171/12 explaining [2] 119/17] 38/21 43/16 favour [3] 53/13 142/9 158/11 161/5
174/16 171/17 171/18] 209/18 facts [4] 84/7 124/23 I 53/19 53/20 163/4 164/3 165/2
existed [2] 10/19 /@xPlains [1] 194/1 170/9 186/17 feasibility [1] 181/21 I 165/3 214/25 222/13
explanation [2] 92/20Ifail [1] 100/4 feature [1] 134/8 227/10 238/18 239/19
(76) evidence... - financial
INQ00001205
INQ00001205
F
find [19] 57/1 57/17
98/5 121/23 127/8
127/21 132/16 153/18)
1
1
2
2.
57/8 167/2 167/3
72/18 172/24 209/11
15/25 229/7 231/5
40/9 241/2
finding [1] 116/13
findings [8] 12/20
52/16 55/21 60/5 60/8;
60/18 152/19 220/1
finds [1] 205/18
fine [46] 1/7 1/11
2
1
2
2:
2.
8/18 70/14 70/17
29/7 173/19 185/19
08/20 209/3 209/14
25/22 226/3 234/20
43/3 245/6
finish [4] 75/4 225/9
2
25/18 231/24
finished [2] 59/10
2
24/5,
finishing [1] 246/17
firm [4] 54/17 79/23
8
0/6 219/9
firm's [1] 219/6
firmly [1] 75/10
first [59] 4/3 4/10
5
2
4
6i
7
9
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
2
/16 7/7 9/12 13/11
6/3 46/16 47/7 47/9
9/7 49/16 49/17
18/16 71/9 74/14
‘8/16 87/1 89/16 92/4)
15/5 104/7 107/1
07/16 109/9 110/18
11/3 115/22 116/11
16/24 118/9 118/9
18/15 124/8 132/20
36/13 142/24 142/25)
52/2 157/11 162/22
69/6 174/12 174/25
75/12 177/5 183/15
92/16 193/22 196/16)
98/18 211/22 214/14)
15/6 230/23 232/18
245/2 246/10 246/21
firsthand [1] 169/20
firstly [4] 33/22 79/19
9!
5/25 136/17
fish [1] 90/21
fished [1] 72/24
fit [2] 47/24 230/21
five [22] 60/4 60/24
6
8
9
1/12 70/18 85/10
5/10 85/18 86/25
7/16 99/9 116/2
134/8 157/22 158/17
158/17 174/9 211/17
2
11/17 211/23 212/22
225/5 225/17
five-year [1] 60/4
five/six [1] 99/9
fix [1] 166/24
fixed [36] 6/14 6/18
13/7 13/13 13/17
13/18 13/20 13/22
14/14 14/17 14/23
15/7 15/25 17/8 17/14!
18/25 19/16 19/18
21/11 21/22 22/3
22/11 23/2 23/11
24/20 24/22 25/18
25/19 26/9 26/15
27/14 49/21 54/5
100/22 104/19 105/1
fixed-sum [9] 6/14
21/22 22/3 23/2 23/11
49/21 54/5 104/19
105/1
fixes [1] 184/13
fixing [1] 68/20
flag [2] 132/8 197/6
flagged [2] 176/15
218/14
flagging [1] 197/5
flat [1] 107/19
flatout [1] 111/22
flawed [1] 178/21
flaws [1] 112/13
flexible [4] 112/12
floating [4] 28/21
floor [2] 17/19 18/3
focus [10] 8/18 33/3
66/10 141/2 141/14
141/21 142/16 176/11
181/18 208/3
focused [4] 83/13
163/4 181/3 181/15
focuses [1] 107/22
focusing [2] 142/5
201/16
FOI [1] 131/25
follow [6] 7/18 74/10
74/17 114/22 143/20
144/11
follow-up [2] 74/10
7417
followed [3] 114/25
138/6 149/3
following [14] 4/4
13/8 49/20 107/14
114/15 116/19 117/22)
133/20 133/21 141/14!
141/22 192/2 192/10
247/3
follows [3] 133/25
215/24 216/25
foot [3] 125/5 163/10
227/1
force [1] 18/6
forensic [1] 199/22
foresee [1] 76/20
forgive [7] 53/16
185/18 187/2 188/16
188/21 188/21 235/7
forgotten [1] 185/16
form [16] 59/13
145/5 161/17 178/18
213/22 213/23 214/8
214/8 214/10 215/9
215/20 216/16 217/1
217/4 217/11 219/12
formal [3] 88/18
88/22 133/20
formally [3] 24/15
88/6 140/12
format [1] 230/10
former [2] 73/20
226/25
formerly [1] 9/8
forms [1] 214/7
forth [3] 71/23 75/24
92/24
fortuitously [1]
227/14
forum [1] 68/11
forward [20] 6/20
14/22 31/3 31/21
41/20 43/2 55/21 57/3
64/6 64/15 66/9 69/2
69/7 74/20 101/2
101/19 152/17 155/16
182/7 245/9
forwards [1] 146/2
found [4] 77/11
128/13 128/14 153/2
founded [1] 130/24
four [26] 5/24 6/2 6/3
9/17 28/13 46/16
49/17 56/1 60/22
64/20 75/14 113/18
121/19 125/4 198/23
208/13 208/14 208/14
208/20 212/2 212/13
212/21 218/6 218/6
218/15 234/9
fourth [3] 142/15
174/18 174/25
fowl [1] 90/21
frames [1] 33/25
framework [2] 67/12
152/22
frameworks [1]
240/25
frank [15] 8/14 11/3
11/9 12/19 29/9 29/17
36/11 44/3 50/10
63/15 76/25 77/6
131/11 169/22 228/1
frankly [20] 10/14
37/16 39/17 41/19
53/9 53/21 57/4 57/9
57/15 59/15 72/12
76/7 155/18 202/7
221/1 229/19 231/4
234/12 237/8 240/10
Fraser [2] 47/13 48/3
fraud [2] 192/22
214/18
free [2] 3/17 23/10
freezes [1] 179/17
frequently [1] 122/5
Friday [6] 1/8 3/25
12/25 15/21 208/1
245/20
Friday's [1] 15/19
front [6] 1/25 41/18
125/5 153/22 174/24
189/11
front-door [1] 41/18
frontline [4] 8/16
44/19 63/10 77/3
frustrated [2] 31/19
74/16
frustrating [1] 121/4
frustration [7] 29/1
31/13 32/2 37/18 49/8,
99/10 102/14
frustrations [1]
36/24
FUJ00126035 [1]
174/15
FUJ00243157 [1]
189/18
FUJ00243199 [2]
192/15 232/17
FUJ00243201 [1]
193/23
FUJ00243204 [2]
182/22 195/9
FUJ00243209 [1]
202/13
FUJ00243211 [1]
205/5
FUJ00243213 [1]
214/8
FUJ00243227 [1]
214/9
FUJ00243233 [1]
215/20
FUJ00243299 [1]
180/20
FUJ00243303 [1]
183/12
Fujitsu [151] 54/24
54/25 55/1 55/3 55/6
55/8 55/13 56/4 56/12
56/17 57/5 57/7 57/14
58/12 58/13 59/3 59/6
74/7 74/10 74/12
74/24 144/18 158/19
158/20 159/1 159/11
161/8 161/10 162/1
162/7 162/8 163/5
163/17 163/18 175/16)
175/22 176/4 176/7
176/20 177/5 177/13
177/17 177/20 180/3
180/7 183/5 184/23
185/21 186/14 189/24)
190/2 190/3 190/6
190/7 190/13 190/23
191/1 191/11 191/12
191/21 192/5 192/18
193/2 195/4 195/13
195/19 196/2 196/5
196/10 197/7 197/23
198/14 199/8 199/11
199/18 199/24 200/5
200/15 201/4 201/9
201/19 202/20 202/25,
203/6 203/10 203/12
203/20 203/21 204/1
204/12 204/25 205/18
207/18 207/22 208/15
209/6 209/10 209/24
210/6 210/14 210/16
210/19 213/4 213/9
213/11 214/3 215/19
216/4 216/13 216/23
217/2 217/18 218/9
218/20 219/7 219/25
220/4 220/9 221/24
221/25 222/14 222/18
228/14 228/19 230/21
231/15 231/19 232/10
235/19 238/15 238/22
238/24 239/17 239/21
240/23 241/20 242/4
242/5 242/8 242/11
242/14 242/16 242/23
243/4 243/19 244/6
244/15 245/4 245/9
245/14 246/24
Fujitsu's [11] 158/25
160/24 161/24 177/3
191/16 210/8 220/12
221/12 230/1 230/18
235/16
full [23] 1/21 5/6 5/14
16/8 16/10 16/14
25/22 28/16 28/22
28/23 37/6 78/13
78/14 82/14 92/25
96/3 102/12 104/15
105/5 105/7 131/10
169/22 174/5
fully [8] 24/6 83/7
85/17 90/22 98/25
101/13 200/11 244/19)
functions [2] 64/17
85/10
fund [4] 172/13 219/8I
222/6 239/22
fundamental [6]
42/12 42/16 43/10
43/18 64/25 66/5
fundamentally [4]
44/18 65/13 69/19
76/11
fundamentals [2]
145/16 185/21
funded [2] 27/21
41/11
funding [10] 11/16
12/6 12/10 13/23
41/10 85/13 90/16
143/22 146/24 202/4
(77) find - funding
INQ00001205
INQ00001205
F 95/11 95/12 95/17 232/2 232/3 233/25 I 52/19 53/16 64/6 61/16 63/17 63/25
funds [5] 222/88 95/21 95/23 97/6 234/10 243/22 244/3 I 64/14 65/12 66/9 64/4 65/16 68/15 69/6
238/15 240/8 242/9 I 97/17 97/19 98/19 246/4 68/16 70/7 74/20 77/2 133/17
242/14 99/6 99/21 99/22 gives [2] 84/5 178/19I 88/12 89/12 95/7 government [120]
funny [1] 109/6
further [24] 21/1
30/19 32/2 50/19 57/4,
59/2 70/3 75/2 86/24
127/11 170/24 183/5
183/13 199/8 204/2
205/20 207/2 207/20
216/20 216/24 229/25
230/3 231/16 237/12
future [60] 4/25 7/20
8/12 28/2 32/2 36/1
39/22 40/8 41/2 41/14)
41/15 42/22 43/8
43/13 43/20 44/7 44/8
46/18 46/23 50/6
50/20 52/14 57/7 62/1
62/5 62/18 65/15
65/20 67/15 68/24
69/5 69/12 69/17
73/18 73/21 74/21
74/22 76/12 76/15
76/16 76/20 76/24
77/16 94/16 94/17
142/2 142/8 149/22
154/1 155/17 158/8
158/14 161/19 171/23}
204/18 205/4 222/19
224/1 238/22 238/23
G
G20 [1] 3/19
G7 [1] 3/19
Gareth [1] 30/15
gave [10] 59/12
69/22 91/11 144/6
158/20 169/22 187/20)
219/1 226/12 246/13
general [14] 3/2 4/6
5/21 6/8 35/8 93/14
116/12 116/12 117/16)
126/19 154/14 157/18)
177124 239/14
generally [1] 156/15
generation [1] 6/3
generosity [2] 53/15
53/18
generous [1] 157/22
gentlemen [1]
246/15
genuine [4] 17/24
39/14 41/17 77/12
genuinely [4] 8/25
10/15 56/15 76/1
gesture [2] 220/23
220/24
get [69] 7/5 7/9 8/17
14/17 31/5 31/23 32/8)
34/1 40/11 49/6 51/8
51/11 70/7 90/23
102/13 102/20 102/24'
103/13 105/23 106/2
106/10 107/21 107/25)
108/25 109/21 111/10)
111/10 112/6 113/15
117/15 119/23 120/14)
121/9 124/2 124/3
124/5 124/14 125/5
126/10 126/21 127/6
128/20 132/1 138/19
157/17 166/18 179/13)
189/13 193/21 199/1
204/6 211/20 231/18
236/17 237/8 243/25
246/7
get-go [1] 113/15
gets [4] 28/23 149/25
172/12 188/12
getting [29] 10/13
17/21 22/13 29/2
44/18 47/3 52/24 59/2
69/24 97/9 99/14
101/20 101/21 108/17)
108/17 108/19 108/19)
110/6 132/6 137/25
138/12 144/1 144/8
148/23 150/5 150/21
156/2 212/5 239/3
give [43] 1/21 17/6
18/6 18/8 23/8 43/22
44/20 46/1 46/5 47/3
52/8 53/9 54/22 54/23
69/11 75/14 77/18
78/13 92/11 97/22
109/7 109/8 113/21
114/10 127/3 130/1
135/2 138/22 142/11
155/12 157/24 158/24
164/16 168/19 170/11
174/5 181/19 188/10
195/13 197/10 197/13)
222/4 237/15
given [60] 4/8 23/25
25/11 42/11 46/22
50/18 55/1 56/19
72/24 84/3 85/23
86/17 95/13 101/5
105/3 108/3 108/23
108/23 109/12 112/14)
120/7 123/10 123/11
123/14 127/18 130/23)
136/1 139/8 146/2
146/22 158/16 160/10)
160/21 163/12 166/20)
167/7 169/9 171/11
171/23 172/6 175/10
176/22 177/24 182/3
190/19 197/11 197/18)
197/22 206/13 230/15)
230/17 231/23 231/25
giving [12] 55/12
126/21 128/7 130/11
131/10 135/17 135/25
172/11 172/11 173/7
239/13 240/3
glad [2] 110/11
162/20
GLO [22] 13/15 16/19)
19/15 20/23 30/8
31/15 32/11 45/13
61/12 82/25 100/4
100/11 100/14 100/23
101/2 101/14 104/20
105/1 107/7 107/19
153/1 158/18
global [2] 159/19
159/19
go [76] 13/1 14/22
ATI17 18/7 22/11 23/6
27/14 27/20 28/10
31/21 37/11 37/20
38/6 38/14 41/6 43/7
51/17 59/22 62/10
65/9 76/2 84/9 89/7
89/10 89/25 96/16
97/11 98/4 101/24
103/8 104/7 110/25
113/15 114/11 114/13)
116/21 116/22 119/3
127/6 128/11 129/8
132/18 132/22 134/7
149/9 152/2 155/2
156/10 157/23 168/4
168/14 170/24 182/20
184/13 190/9 191/15
194/25 201/15 202/14:
204/4 214/3 218/22
222/25 228/17 232/16
233/14 234/6 236/3
239/20 240/19 240/20
240/20 241/14 243/18
244/11 244/12
go-slow [1] 134/7
goal [1] 69/15
God [1] 126/11
Goddard [1] 2/25
goes [15] 28/22
35/12 92/3 92/17
100/2 124/8 126/4
133/5 146/20 181/12
187/7 187/13 196/25
197/25 204/3
going [107] 3/55/15
5/20 8/10 10/25 15/18
16/5 17/20 20/22 26/5
26/24 29/19 31/12
31/19 32/5 40/15 41/6
43/2 45/17 48/22
48/23 49/1 49/4 50/6
50/16 51/17 52/1 52/3
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110/4 114/11 119/13
120/17 121/12 122/13)
122/15 126/11 126/15)
126/16 126/17 126/24)
127/14 127/19 131/12)
133/7 135/13 136/25
143/5 143/19 146/2
147/3 147/7 150/3
151/24 152/16 153/12)
153/15 154/17 168/25)
170/3 170/18 171/9
172/2 172/13 172/15
172/16 173/25 177/1
182/7 182/18 184/24
186/20 197/9 198/21
201/9 207/19 220/11
220/14 222/1 224/11
224/12 226/1 232/22
235/21 235/24 236/7
236/7 236/10 236/17
238/9 239/25 244/19
246/8
gone [17] 7/20 40/13
40/18 62/20 67/2
69/25 82/15 124/22
150/22 157/15 186/4
188/18 188/22 197/9
227/24 244/10 244/11
good [31] 1/3 1/4
34/8 58/14 59/25 62/4
64/12 68/9 69/7 69/18
69/18 71/2 71/4 72/9
78/6 78/11 107/21
115/17 119/6 123/24
124/3 124/5 130/21
131/22 162/17 167/21
167/24 173/23 184/14)
226/5 246/20
goodwill [1] 159/23
got [43] 25/6 26/10
31/20 31/22 33/25
34/5 34/21 44/7 46/7
64/17 65/17 66/2 66/4
66/7 66/7 68/24 98/18
103/10 106/9 110/11
112/8 118/22 119/3
120/16 120/18 120/21
125/1 125/20 125/25
184/10 198/25 206/24)
212/18 218/13 229/2
237/1 237/2 237/20
240/4 240/11 245/13
246/6 246/16
gov.uk [1] 3/8
govern [1] 155/17
governance [20] 5/2
7/14 7/22 8/13 40/9
40/22 41/2 42/23
44/17 60/20 61/2
3/15 4/15 4/16 4/17
4/18 10/2 10/23 14/13
18/12 19/18 33/5
33/16 36/22 37/20
38/10 39/4 41/3 43/13,
43/19 46/11 46/17
49/10 49/14 49/25
55/14 56/1 56/3 56/4
56/11 56/11 58/9
58/13 59/8 61/15
61/20 61/23 62/7
62/10 62/13 62/22
63/4 64/8 64/17 65/24
67/7 67/12 68/2 69/14
71/24 73/20 74/18
75/16 85/1 94/2 97/21
108/6 108/22 110/3
113/22 113/25 115/2
120/13 123/25 125/16)
128/25 134/3 134/5
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146/5 147/25 148/6
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149/25 150/10 151/10)
155/13 156/14 159/25)
161/2 161/2 161/8
162/13 163/25 164/10)
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166/10 166/22 167/1
167/4 167/5 172/8
173/1 220/2 220/15
220/17 220/19 220/25
221/19 222/5 222/9
222/24 223/1 224/2
224/8 224/9 224/10
231/25 239/18 239/20
239/25 240/4 240/7
241/16 241/21
government's [6]
34/9 84/10 123/11
147/19 148/17 155/22)
governmental [1] 5/8
governments [3]
6/11 10/16 38/25,
Grant [3] 60/5 61/10
156/5
grasp [2] 53/5 169/21
grasped [2] 58/13
59/18
grateful [8] 4/3 4/7
13/5 77/18 105/8
190/21 192/4 231/15
Gratton [4] 123/20
126/22 136/11 136/18)
grave [1] 48/10
great [7] 31/2 32/16
58/17 101/3 182/23
239/3 243/16
greater [11] 6/20
6/21 8/14 9/12 9/20
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INQ00001205
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11/5 16/12 23/8 39/18)
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Green [9] 43/25
44/10 44/17 45/22
45/23 46/2 46/3 47/4
49/6
Greg [1] 42/15
Grenfell [1] 65/7
grey [2] 27/19 141/6
grievances [1] 69/24
grip [1] 86/18
gripping [1] 107/12
group [19] 22/14
23/4 25/13 36/15
39/10 39/24 43/9
58/11 63/5 79/19
79/22 82/22 220/4
223/2 227/6 227/16
227/19 228/24 229/7
groups [1] 68/3
growth [1] 96/14
guarantee [2] 10/2
11/6
guaranteed [1] 10/22
Guardian [1] 30/6
guidance [1] 19/25
guide [1] 50/1
guided [2] 12/20
52/20
guidelines [1] 46/5
guilty [3] 125/10
125/19 139/1
H
had [195] 14/9 14/11
15/12 20/12 21/18
22/7 25/22 32/6 33/16
33/22 33/25 34/2 34/4
34/8 34/19 35/8 35/9
35/16 36/4 36/18 37/2
37/8 38/13 38/14
38/14 38/15 38/16
39/5 39/13 39/19
46/16 46/25 52/23
56/13 56/14 58/17
60/3 69/25 71/6 72/1
72/3 72/6 72/7 72/9
72/10 72/20 73/12
73/19 74/6 74/11
74/14 74/21 77/7
82/10 82/13 82/15
82/16 82/18 83/12
85/1 85/5 86/8 87/6
87/18 88/24 89/8 90/1
90/7 91/20 93/3 93/22,
94/18 95/9 95/17
96/24 96/24 97/3
101/19 102/25 103/10)
103/11 107/3 108/11
108/24 109/15 110/19)
110/24 112/5 113/3
113/14 115/24 117/25)
118/7 119/14 119/17
120/3 120/4 121/2
121/4 121/10 123/13
127/6 127/18 128/22
130/3 130/5 130/9
130/12 133/10 133/12)
133/17 133/23 134/10)
135/11 136/19 136/23)
137/16 137/12 137/14
137/22 137/22 137/24
140/19 140/23 141/3
143/3 143/17 144/18
145/21 147/4 149/21
153/5 153/7 153/8
153/11 153/18 153/20)
154/4 154/17 155/3
155/23 156/4 156/6
156/6 156/16 156/16
159/19 160/21 161/7
161/21 162/19 163/17)
163/24 164/8 164/19
165/17 168/21 169/7
169/12 169/14 169/16)
169/20 170/13 179/2
179/9 183/6 183/17
190/13 192/1 197/17
199/9 201/4 203/9
210/15 211/25 212/2
212/12 219/4 220/9
220/9 226/11 227/15
227/17 227/24 228/8
228/20 228/21 229/1
229/2 229/25 230/23
230/25 241/11 242/17
244/8
hadn't [2] 82/18
232/3
haggle [2] 110/15
1114/5
half [7] 47/7 47/7
47/9 70/11 92/14
92/18 121/19
half-hour [1] 92/14
halfway [3] 20/16
171/11 203/3
hall [1] 42/5
hand [9] 20/10 84/18
106/23 145/20 151/16)
159/12 171/10 214/12)
236/20
handful [1] 120/18
handing [1] 214/5
handle [2] 137/16
137/25
handling [1] 47/24
handover [1] 71/10
hands [2] 170/21
224/20
hang [3] 56/4 157/21
208/20
Hansard [1] 35/14
happen [20] 29/24
86/1 87/21 90/11
95/24 97/4 113/7
117/12 123/15 127/14
131/8 149/8 154/20
155/7 172/15 172/16
228/15 236/7 237/18
237/24
happened [12] 52/22
58/2 58/7 73/11 74/15
75/12 88/25 93/1
127/7 130/23 158/1
230/6
happening [18]
26/15 48/25 50/8
58/17 85/21 95/20
99/11 102/14 102/15
102/25 113/9 113/25
135/19 137/1 151/4
156/13 241/20 242/7
happens [4] 35/10
112/8 149/7 187/8
happy [7] 51/4 54/23
74/18 109/22 109/25
116/14 122/20
hard [14] 61/20
106/19 112/2 127/20
131/14 132/13 138/4
141/16 151/23 151/25
158/8
hardware [2] 223/12
223/23
harms [2] 12/18
58/23
has [167] 2/14 3/11
5/10 5/16 5/21 5/23
5/25 6/1 6/2 6/5 7/20
8/2 8/21 9/23 10/3
10/4 10/10 11/4 13/6
15/6 16/22 20/7 22/9
23/3 23/14 23/18 27/3
30/14 31/10 32/15
32/18 32/19 32/21
33/2 33/4 40/9 40/22
40/23 41/8 41/15
41/21 43/11 46/16
48/2 48/8 49/3 52/12
52/22 53/3 54/16
54/17 54/25 55/1 55/1
55/25 56/3 56/11
56/11 58/7 61/9 62/21
63/8 63/13 63/14
65/24 66/19 66/23
67/5 67/6 69/2 71/14
73/11 74/15 76/9 76/9
76/24 85/24 87/21
93/14 94/23 98/2
100/14 101/4 109/12
110/9 113/22 114/12
123/11 129/16 130/23
132/9 143/13 145/25
146/21 147/18 148/11
150/1 150/17 150/21
155/18 158/1 158/11
162/11 163/16 166/20
173/1 173/15 179/18
180/7 180/21 181/3
182/15 183/5 183/9
183/17 183/21 188/14)
190/12 190/19 193/15)
194/18 196/6 197/9
198/4 199/8 199/17
199/25 201/4 202/16
202/24 204/1 206/18
208/15 208/21 208/22
208/25 209/5 210/4
210/6 212/13 213/9
213/12 214/3 215/18
217/4 217/5 217/15
217/18 219/9 219/9
220/6 220/10 222/5
223/2 223/9 224/4
228/13 232/2 233/1
233/18 234/13 239/5
239/21 242/24 243/12
244/22 245/8
hasn't [2] 25/5 74/16
haste [1] 138/17
have [431]
haven't [22] 8/25
11/6 12/14 16/20 37/8)
72/1 72/15 73/12
73/19 74/14 138/6
174/24 175/8 201/20
202/6 202/10 209/3
227/19 231/23 240/18
24117 241/10
having [27] 27/15
28/21 36/11 37/2 38/4
46/18 50/15 60/21
64/19 64/19 73/4 98/4
101/20 105/15 122/20)
136/3 139/19 143/13
155/5 157/22 158/6
164/7 164/15 191/13
207/12 208/11 220/11
he [115] 26/11 28/23
28/24 34/11 54/16
54/20 54/21 55/1 55/1
59/12 60/2 66/12
66/17 67/1 85/3 85/5
85/22 85/24 85/25
86/18 88/24 89/7 89/8
94/9 95/8 96/24 96/25
101/19 101/20 101/23)
104/8 104/17 105/8
112/14 112/15 115/25)
116/5 116/6 117/23
119/1 119/18 119/22
122/12 122/14 122/17)
122/19 122/21 124/2
124/3 124/3 124/5
124/8 126/20 126/21
126/22 127/13 129/3
129/7 129/18 130/12
130/17 133/10 133/12)
133/15 133/17 133/23)
134/7 139/5 139/17
139/18 155/12 155/20)
157/19 158/23 158/24)
159/3 159/7 159/7
169/4 169/8 169/10
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170/22 189/7 190/10
193/24 194/1 194/9
194/15 194/19 194/25)
195/7 202/15 202/15
202/18 202/19 203/2
203/3 203/21 204/3
204/4 204/10 204/10
204/24 219/3 219/9
225/9 230/7 230/7
241/6 244/19 244/20
244/22
he's [8] 1/6 52/11
54/15 105/8 139/19
203/18 203/20 204/21
head [7] 26/6 28/21
111/17 187/9 188/7
210/13 231/12
headed [1] 83/17
heading [3] 99/4
132/22 140/8
headline [1] 222/13
health [2] 172/13
229/14
healthier [1] 64/6
hear [17] 48/16 48/20
50/24 50/25 59/22
74/16 78/6 115/17
121/8 155/11 162/20
162/23 165/14 173/23)
174/1 220/10 226/1
heard [25] 3/25 4/21
10/8 24/20 37/25
39/25 42/14 53/6 58/8)
64/7 66/11 71/10 75/5
83/6 121/25 173/17
199/17 200/8 206/2
206/14 220/10 220/11
220/15 220/21 221/17,
hearing [8] 1/5 11/13
15/19 51/18 100/12
138/23 155/6 247/3
heart [2] 63/15 126/4
heavily [2] 9/19
48/14
held [7] 20/12 36/15
61/7 62/9 62/12 82/18
169/1
help [19] 16/17 24/8
26/6 69/13 95/8
101/24 119/4 119/6
140/10 152/24 159/14)
189/23 221/18 229/15)
229/15 231/1 232/9
237/18 240/22
helped [1] 111/8
helpful [7] 74/20
114/13 127/5 132/16
154/21 154/25 221/3
helps [1] 200/13
hence [5] 141/5
199/3 200/24 200/25
(79) greater... - hence
INQ00001205
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H 95/8 104/5 116/3 153/25 160/25 162/1 I 191/3 202/12 207/18 II believe [31] 7/21
hence. [i 2007 I 117/23 127/6 12816 I 175/13 175/13 178/5 I 208/9 220/11 221/20 I 24/14 25/9 25/19 29/7
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115/93 116/28 130/9 I 130/18 130/21 130/22] 179/3 179/10 179/20 I 229/15 229/20 240/10 40/6 41/19 44/5 44/16
430/14 136/15 136/20 130/24 133/4 133/11 I 180/1 180/10 181/14 244/2 246/7 246/14 49/24 54/10 55/18
149/20 168/4 168/6. I 134/15 135/7 139/11 I 181/4 181/7 181/16 IHow's [1] 236/10 I 56/22 57/7 62/18 73/2
4168/11 168/12 248/22) 139/18 139/20 140/3 I 181/22 182/4 182/7_ IHowe [4] 54/16 225/2I 79/25 89/1 101/1
here [50] 1/15 1/17 I 198/24 160/6 168/7 I 18278 183/5 183/17 I 241/2 245/24 153/20 161/16 164/6
4 5/21 10/14 14/4 I 169/11 169/22 170/13] 183/24 184/1 184/6 IHowever [9] 19/12 I 165/13 223/11 228/16
23/3 24/8 29/14 34/22I 207/18 227/16 244/21I 184/8 186/1 186/15 I 24/2 91/3 172/8 193/5I 229123 23117
36/3 50/18 52/21 245/24 186/18 187/6 187/15 I 195/19 206/17 209/23II believed [1] 22/1
53/12 56/18 58/14 historic [6] 9/2 48/5 I 188/14 188/16 189/3 I 222/22 lcall [2] 78/8 132/1
62/16 66/18 68/12 65/20 142/1 158/7 189/6 190/17 192/7 IHSS [10] 6/15 13/23 II can [24] 2/10 8/25
69/25 75/19 7/21 210/21 193/17 194/2 194/17 I 14/23 18/4 25/16 26/8I 9/5 10/1 27/25 49/8
87/25 91/12 92/2 historical [2] 210/25 I 194/20 195/1 196/3 I 72/3 100/12 100/25 I 49/15 52/8 59/24 69/2
236/23 196/22 196/23 198/13) 105/3 69/18 70/1 74/25
97/16 106/13 114/6 ee
120/16 126/19 128/15I historically [2] 10/17 I 199/8 199/11 199/18 IHubs [2] 43/14 76/8 I 84/25 89/25 92/1
147/24 153/14 154/6 200/3 201/5 201/23 IHudgells [3] 71/7 I 110/14 111/15 121/16
161/15 163/11 167/14] history [4] 62/22 66/5) 201/25 202/2 203/5 I 74/9 228/13 125/1 141/16 167/14
486/22 187/9 207/10 167/17 239/3 203/13 204/8 205/4 Ihuge [4] 40/14 175/3 185/9
210/24 213/21 224/11 hm [4] 123/21 197/20} 208/25 209/22 210/7 I 135/20 147/14 169/16II can't [15] 46/5 49/9
230/5 230/8 230/8 204/23 237/17 210/9 211/18 211/19 Ihuman [1] 114/6 49/14 60/22 97/23
53513 2390/4 24217 IHMG [1] 152/18 212/7 212/15 212/24 Ihumility [1] 66/7 102/12 111/16 140/18
244/3 HMRC [2] 186/11 213/5 213/6 218/21 IHunt [2] 98/22 104/7 I 142/25 156/4 158/21
here's [2] 92/23 187/11 219/5 227/10 232/25 IHunt's [1] 105/20 159/17 185/11 188/17)
4172/16 HMT [1] 152/20 233/4 233/14 233/20 Ihurt [1] 58/3 221/16
herself [1] 130/8 hold [1] 148/12 234/3 234/5 234/18 I hurts [1] 238/16 I cannot [2] 184/1
Hi [1] 71/3 holistic [2] 198/9 235/2 235/5 235/8 = I I 237/23
high [12] 16/10 45/12) 236/16 235/25 236/9 236/20 I! Ii chose [1] 121/16
47/14 48/12 57/21 Hollinrake [26] 34/10I 236/20 236/22 I absolutely [3] 36/2 I1 committed [1]
76/13 76/17 92/11 72/10 84/20 85/1 horrendous [1] 31/6 I 172/23 237/10 226/16
1405/4 123/10 144/3 85/15 86/11 86/17 horrific [1] 125/4 lact [2] 71/4 162/18 II completed [1] 3/1
452/25 88/4 89/12 94/9 95/7 Ihour [5] 70/10 92/14 II again [1] 37/11 I consider [2] 195/19
higher [1] 21/19 99/19 101/13 101/17 I 92/15 92/18 233/15 II agreed [1] 103/23 I 195/21
highlighted [1] 105/9 107/11 122/5 Ihours [2] 121/15 lalso [12] 4/14 68/18I1 could [10] 10/6 11/5)
141/20 122/9 122/21 123/6 I 121/18 73/5 83/12 88/22 11/9 30/20 106/20
highlighting [1] 123/7 131/5 135/12 Ihouse [3] 24/17 102/15 138/25 144/1 I 111/24 112/19 121/6
183/8 136/11 137/17 169/1 I 171/11 236/23 156/1 169/23 206/2 121/18 127/21
Hillsborough [2] Hollinrake's [1] Housing [1] 81/4 210/24 I couldn't [4] 185/4
65/5 65/25 143/24 how [96] 4/8 5/1 5/14II always [1] 138/10 II cover [1] 176/8
him [49] 3/25 51/6 home [1] 113/19 12/2 12/13 18/9 23/15)I am [30] 4/17 28/7 II described [1] 92/21
53/11 54/19 54/22 hometown [1] 43/16 I 23/22 24/23 25/3 41/14 42/6 56/13 I did [20] 2/25 3/3
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oor ete, peer 1 Ihonestly [2] 64/19 I 39/10 40/3 40/12 43/7I 97/5 102/18 104/14 I 417/3 118/4 121/23
175 49 12119 I 187/24 44/9 44/13 46/8 46/20I 109/25 110/11 111/20] 127/6 136/1 139/9
hook [1] 97/11 49/1 49/4 49/14 51/25I 112/14 126/23 130/18] 139/16 144/16 156/1
121/5 121/10 122/12
423/17 123/22 123/24Ihope [5] 17/23 24/14 I 62/20 64/16 64/16 I 133/7 139/7 146/11 I 159/18 162/25 163/21
t24i4 12416 12714. I 24/16 62/8 167/12 I 65/10 65/13 65/14 I 167/2 167/9 172/2 I s69/7 170/17 171/24
4127/7 127/10 130/10 Ihoped [1] 59/16 65/20 66/6 67/17 188/21 190/4 212/4 Ii didn't [15] 114/25
430/11 131/1 134/16 [hopefully [1] 18/5 I 85/17 87/16 87/24 I 212/8 227/8 231/24 I 117/6 117/13 118/11
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218/22 218/24 219/24
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181/2 181/5 181/7
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197/4 197/22 198/4
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205/20 207/2 224/4
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141/25
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234/22
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182/10
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28/19
internal [4] 7/22
66/22 124/24 154/13
internally [1] 152/18
international [2] 81/6
intervention [2] 19/7
24/3
intimidating [1]
133/12
into [46] 6/16 7/5
10/13 13/2 31/19
36/13 37/11 37/20
49/13 74/20 76/3 77/5
79/14 82/3 82/18
91/14 91/22 92/19
93/4 93/10 93/23
98/19 101/13 110/6
127/11 133/11 144/2
146/7 146/8 153/18
155/17 159/9 165/5
177/1 181/18 181/18
189/3 198/22 200/7
201/20 202/15 211/8
212/1 215/21 218/22
222/20
introduce [4] 13/13
24/7 124/13 217/1
introduced [3] 26/9
40/14 217/5
introduction [3]
13/21 15/6 217/3
introductions [1]
118/24
introductory [3]
32/17 81/24 83/17
investigated [3]
179/25 180/17 199/20
investigation [20]
133/11 137/2 189/21
190/8 191/23 192/9
193/1 193/6 194/14
194/17 199/25 200/7
200/10 201/20 203/11
203/14 203/25 211/8
214/15 236/15
investigations [10]
189/15 192/25 194/7
204/3 204/7 207/9
207/11 210/21 211/5
234/9
investigative [1]
193/4
investigator [1]
183/14
Investigators [1]
205/19
investing [1] 181/4
investment [3] 46/13
202/9 212/12
involve [1] 27/13
involved [11] 39/25
54/16 54/17 57/8 61/7
90/24 124/6 144/9
166/4 190/5 230/9
involvement [6]
irrational [1] 114/12
irrespective [1] 1/9
is [749]
isn't [17] 10/10 28/19
91/17 91/18 113/17
120/5 131/18 136/21
151/3 165/2 166/22
194/20 215/11 228/4
228/11 245/2 245/4
issue [43] 4/22 9/4
14/4 15/23 16/23
20/25 36/21 58/10
58/10 58/19 64/16
71/12 73/23 74/13
82/11 90/13 93/13
95/10 96/25 105/22
106/9 110/16 113/11
115/22 117/14 123/11
126/23 126/25 137/21
138/15 144/15 154/6
162/1 162/13 162/13
169/4 169/10 175/15
176/15 188/3 193/18
195/20 215/2
issued [2] 99/2
110/14
issues [56] 7/7 9/1
11/20 14/3 22/24 33/3)
39/19 40/6 41/10
41/13 42/12 44/8
49/23 50/5 51/5 51/16
52/2 52/4 53/5 53/8
54/20 54/22 57/13
60/19 61/11 62/17
64/14 68/7 72/12 82/6
82/21 82/21 86/17
86/18 88/2 94/18
116/11 116/12 130/9
130/13 134/1 134/9
136/3 137/22 144/12
157/3 158/7 169/21
175/12 178/18 178/25)
179/15 179/19 184/6
205/13 236/14
it [578]
it'll [3] 58/15 109/17
111/18
it's [166] 3/7 5/1 5/1
9/15 12/6 15/15 15/18
15/18 16/23 17/19
18/6 22/22 25/13 26/4)
26/25 27/8 28/13
32/13 36/24 37/5
40/19 41/1 45/8 46/14
46/15 50/23 51/8 54/4
54/14 56/17 58/15
59/12 62/16 62/17
64/5 68/13 69/8 69/12
70/3 70/3 70/10 72/15
75/13 75/16 78/18
98/25 101/18 104/6
104/7 105/13 105/15
106/12 107/2 112/8
112/17 113/1 113/17
113/20 116/25 120/18
4124/12 121/13 121/13
123/18 123/25 124/2
124/21 125/4 125/13
125/19 125/20 126/4
126/5 126/6 126/7
126/10 126/11 126/15
4127/2 128/13 129/15
131/14 132/10 132/13
132/21 136/10 136/10
136/21 136/24 137/5
138/4 138/17 140/20
142/14 144/13 145/9
146/9 146/13 147/1
147/22 147/23 149/12
149/19 149/23 150/4
150/8 151/5 152/10
154/20 154/21 165/2
165/11 166/4 171/6
172/21 173/2 173/8
176/2 17/2 180/20
182/22 185/1 185/13
186/1 186/11 187/2
4187/2 201/22 202/1
202/7 203/5 205/5
205/6 206/2 206/9
207/9 209/20 212/12
212/18 212/20 213/2
214/4 214/8 222/11
225/6 225/8 230/22
233/10 234/3 237/16
238/5 242/13 244/10
246/17
items [1] 85/18
its [42] 5/2 43/18
44/8 54/24 55/3 55/6
60/11 66/19 67/13
69/14 69/15 73/7 92/4
94/2 105/4 145/5
145/19 147/16 154/5,
156/18 172/21 179/18)
184/9 184/10 185/13
188/17 191/22 193/15
194/22 197/24 198/4
202/17 204/13 209/25
213/6 221/13 222/24
233/1 235/8 235/8
244/6 244/6
itself [11] 24/16
41/12 50/3 53/3 63/11
90/20 143/13 158/6
158/9 167/11 205/14
ITV [2] 112/23 113/18
a
January [15] 84/5
(83) informed - January
INQ00001205
1NQ00001205
J 47/1 48/5 50/5 54/15 I 176/24 191/8 228/5 I 62/10 63/16 63/18 large [7] 25/13 33/18
January... [14] 1141/7 56/20 59/6 61/9 61/18] 240/25 243/13 243/17] 64/24 65/12 65/18 45/11 57/2 75/20
416/19 117/22 118/8 I 81/19 61/19 61/20 I 245/9 245/15 65/19 65/24 69/23 I 86/12 86/15
132/23 133/1 137/9 I 61/23 62/12 62/16 _ justifiable [1] 51/22 I 70/2 71/25 72/6 73/5 Ilargest [1] 243/12
198/25 219/18 222/18I 62/20 64/23 66/6 —_Ijustify [1] 172/5 73/12 75/23 75/23 Ilast [26] 5/24 6/2
226/13 238/2 2418 I 88/10.67/3.69/23 I_I 76/3 77/1 88/23 92/20] 31/17 56/1 59/11
2343/7 71/14 72/17 73/2 73/4IX __________I 94/9 94/16 95/22 97/2) 60/24 84/4 91/11
74/24 75/5 75/14 84/2I Katie [4] 163/10 97/23 98/5 99/1 121/10 125/4 147/20
wegeee eruary 111) gee a6/21 87/9 87/10I 163/10 227/1 227/2 I 102/16 111/4 112/11 I 167/17 175/16 178/19
Japanese [1] 223/2 I 89/7 90/25 91/18 keen [3] 43/13 107/9 I 112/18 113/1 113/13 I 178/25 184/10 212/13
Jason [1] 78/11 94/14 97/2 97/22 189/14 114/10 114/24 117/5 I 216/2 219/1 219/19
jeopardy [2] 16/23 I 97/2497/25 98/4 Ikeep [10] 52/8 54/19 I 119/9 119/9 119/11 I 223/18 224/13 229/22]
seoparey 102/19 102/24 103/4 I 132/12 132/13 145/10] 119/17 119/17 119/20] 231/21 233/15 243/9
17/16
Jeremy [1] 98/22 103/6 105/19 105/25 I 147/2 150/15 150/20 I 120/1 120/3 121/8 lastly [6] 57/18 145/1
job [16] 31/7 36/13 106/14 107/16 109/13) 173/5 237/23 121/12 121/19 121/21I 159/3 162/4 242/22
61/3 61/22 62/4 62/12I 109/23 110/10 110/24 keeping [2] 52/18 421/21 122/1 122/17 I 246/22
83/12 117/18 123/8 111/18 112/3 112/8 I 145/6 123/1 125/4 126/7 late [2] 19/8 95/22
131/22 138/1 140/13 I 112/17 114/8 114/19 Kelly [1] 241/4 126/24 127/20 131/14Ilater [15] 29/5 53/21
115/19 115/24 120/6 IKelly's [1] 241/3 132/15 134/11 136/22) 55/12 86/7 98/16
140/14 147/12 167/24)
217/15
Johnson [1] 80/24
join [1] 129/2
joined [2] 85/3
175/22
joint [1] 101/16
jointly [1] 124/12
JONATHAN [3] 1/19
1/23 248/2
journalist [1] 120/24
journey [3] 59/16
124/19 125/2
judge [1] 160/22
judgement [4] 110/8
114/22 133/16 135/7
121/13 121/19 122/8 IKemi [5] 2/20 78/8 137/3 137/4 137/5 110/6 162/10 218/2
123/15 125/3 125/4 I 78/9 78/14 248/14 138/4 138/7 139/11 I 218/6 218/6 219/2
126/3 126/9 126/21 Ikept [1] 98/4 140/12 145/20 146/22I 245/19 245/22 245/25
127/2 128/11 129/25 IKevin [33] 72/10 85/1) 147/16 147/17 148/25] 246/4
130/5 130/5 130/19 I 85/19 86/11 86/17 149/20 157/4 158/16 Ilatest [1] 216/7
130/25 131/4 131/6 I 87/18 88/4 89/6 90/6 I 158/19 159/1 159/11 Ilatterly [1] 165/20
131/11 131/20 132/11I 94/25 95/7 95/12 159/14 160/1 160/5 Ilaw [23] 2/23 65/25
132/22 136/21 137/8 I 96/24 99/19 100/7 161/20 163/8 166/9 I 148/7 148/12 150/9
137/25 139/19 140/7 I 103/11 103/23 122/5 I 169/9 172/8 177/22 I 150/12 150/13 150/14
143/18 145/1 145/21 I 122/9 122/12 122/20 I 186/20 188/18 189/4 I 150/17 150/17 150/25)
145/25 146/4 146/7 130/1 130/1 135/12 189/12 197/12 198/20I 151/1 151/1 151/5
146/9 146/14 146/22 I 135/12 136/10 143/9 I 200/20 200/23 201/6 I 151/11 151/12 165/19
147/20 148/15 148/25I 168/19 168/19 169/11) 201/6 206/18 209/1 I 167/19 167/20 167/22
149/5 149/23 150/5 I 169/24 170/2 170/13 I 212/21 214/4 219/18 I 240/14 240/14 240/15,
152/24 154/19 156/20I key [14] 4/17 6/7 14/8) 225/7 229/3 229/22 Ilaws [3] 167/21
157/3 157/22 157/25 I 14/13 18/15 60/5 60/8) 230/10 230/16 231/12I 167/22 167/24
iudgements [1] 158/2 158/17 160/19 I 64/13 67/7 67/17 I 232/4 233/8 237/21 Lawyer [3] 114/25
judgment (4) 4aii2 I 161/22 16214 169/12 I 67/22 116128 1732 I 2ar/i8 2aave 249/14 I 177/10 19618
aa eta gina I 16512 165/2 165/22 I 194/21 243/24 245/7 lawyers [7] 23/17
judgments [3] 61/12 I 166/11 166/16 167/14/keyed [1] 188/15 Iknowing [3] 111/8 I 51/21 52/5 100/17
bee 168/4 168/6 168/6 _Ikeying [1] 179/24 I 159/24 164/18 134/24 178/2 219/14
153/3 155/9
judicial [5] 32/24
36/15 98/1 148/21
193/4
judiciously [1] 172/7
July [13] 15/16 15/22
168/14 168/19 168/23] kicking [1] 231/3 knowledge [8] 2/12 Ilay [3] 35/17 82/10
170/12 171/9 172/6 Ikind [15] 18/25 20/8 I 56/1 56/3 67/20 78/25I 206/15
174/11 176/22 177/4 I 22/21 43/5 43/10 79/14 175/5 208/15 layer [1] 66/17
177/12 180/23 181/11] 50/14 55/24 58/23 known [7] 2/17 38/22Ilaying [1] 208/19
182/20 188/14 193/21I 58/24 69/1 69/4 76/14I 102/10 113/4 123/14 Ilead [2] 7/16 75/15
49/15 80/16 80/18 I 196/12 197/3 198/5_ I 84/6 127/8 14/9 183/10 204/9 Leader [4] 81/19
8111 e1i4.aii7 I 198/12 202/2 207/17 Ikindly [1] 78/15 knows [2] 103/17 I 81/20 162/5 167/7
83/12 182/23 195/9 I 208/8 214/5 218/11 I kinds [2] 25/21 65/11) 131/25 leaders [1] 212/5
202/14 205/6 218/23 220/5 222/3 IKingdom [2] 39/2 IKPMG [1] 201/9 leadership [1] 56/2
July 2024 [4] 83/12 I 222/16 228/4 228/17 I 243/13 Kwarteng [1] 153/7_ Ileading [4] 16/11
June [5] 19/10 228/21 230/14 231/18Iknew [3] 95/15 11/9; 26117 7715 94/25
217/23 217/24 21/1 I 232/20 234/1 237/4 I 243/8 BO Leadsom [1] 153/5
2318/5 239/6 239/25 240/6 Iknow [154] 3/24 6/25ILaboratory [1] leak [1] 135/23
junior [5] 4/20 85/22 I 240/18 243/22 243/25] 7/22 9/1 9/16 10/17 I 223/17 leaked [2] 121/3
Foe eee I 244/22 24614 246/5 I 10/18 17/10 23/14 labour [3] 35/4 56/3 I 129/17
justice [35] 31/24 I 23/15 23/16 23/18 I 147/4 learned [3] 182/2
just [196] 1/15 4/23
TINT 14/3 15/20 16/5 I 29/23 34/5 34/19 27/10 28/3 32/24 lack [11] 19/23 31/20I 228/20 228/22
36/14 37/14 37/21 I 34/12 34/21 34/24 I 41/16. 41/16 53/3 earning [2] 47/12
104 23/13 25118 I seria 39/2 40/6 47/13) 34/25 35/21 35125 I 6O/12.60/1367/16 I 92/17
31/21 33/2 33/6 33/12I 46/3 58/6 62/17 65/21] 40/10 40/11 40/20 I 206/7 206/7 206/8 learnt [9] 66/8 198/3
34/14 34/17 34/22. I 97/4. 97/5 150/20 41/1 41/4 41/17 42/24I lacking [2] 63/13 198/3 198/4 198/15
40/19 41/3 41/5 43/24] 150/21 159/4 161/5 I 43/11 44/24 48/24 I 63/14 206/6 214/3 219/18
45/20 46/15 46/20 _ I 1064/1 164/23 165/9 I 49/10.49/15 49/16 I language [2] 184/24 I 243/15
165/10 165/10 167/16I 50/4 50/8 57/24 60/23] 205/18 least [14] 1/13 2/3
(84) January... - least
INQ00001205
INQ00001205
L letter [38] 8/6 37/16 I 150/2 53/24 65/2 68/13 lots [1] 97/12
least... [12] 289 98/21 99/1 99/5 99/9 Ilimit [4] 23/20 26/13 I 68/13 69/8 77/16 love [1] 147/4
45/16 70/15 110/20 I 99/16 101/12 101/16 I 59/6 74/24 83/15 84/2 86/3 87/8 Iloved [2] 234/15
101/18 102/14 104/6 Ilimited [10] 48/2 58/3I 88/16 89/11 96/13 I 238/6
Taord tora oeeynt 4104/9 104/11 105/15 I 84/11 84/13 100/11 I 98/24 104/4 104/5 low [1] 24/1
215/11 244/7 105/19 110/24 111/14] 130/8 143/21 175/17 I 106/11 106/20 107/16Ilower [6] 13/17 16/15I
leave [2] 38/2 135/22I 112/15 112/19 125/14] 189/25 26/7 1140/9 110/23 111/14 I 16/21 19/14 19/16
leaver [4] 123/24 I 134/11 140/1 140/8 Limited's [1] 47/22 I 113/24 118/5 123/28 I 28/16
foait 124/3 124/5 I 140/11 157/17 182/22] limits [2] 9/24 151/17) 136/8 137/17 140/1 Ilowering [1] 32/13
leaving [1] 12816 I 183/13 184/3 184/24 Iline [17] 13/14 79/8 I 440/7 140/18 147/21 IIunch [3] 115/7
led [6] 9/25 35/3 185/1 192/15 195/17 I 88/5 88/5 89/13 89/14I 150/23 151/1 151/24 I 163/13 173/9
35/16 53/3 123/11 I 195/24 205/25 232/17] 105/23 106/2 106/10 I 162/13 156/1 187/24 I
132/19 232/21 233/6 107/21 107/25 111/2 I 158/15 161/8 161/14 I
ledger [1] 114/9 letters [5] 182/21 I 111/20 114/8 129/14 I 161/23 165/5 170/9_Imachine [8] 97/21
left [10] 3/1 2618 I 182/21 182/25 192/13] 136/13 188/13 176/1 179/9 179/14 I 165/24 165/25 166/22
Bi? 84/17 84/18 193/22 line/seventh [1] 88/5 I 182/18 212/24 214/12I 167/1 167/18 167/19
168/10 190/15 197/1 Ilevel [29] 5/8 7/3 7/23)lines [5] 28/13 97/15 I 217/13 218/22 220/18 167/20
214/12 241/3 8/14 10/1 10/24 14/20] 97/16 148/4 182/21 I 231/8 236/12 236/13 IMachinery [1] 85/1
¥ 17/9 17/11 18/10 link [1] 62/4 looked [8] 35/14 made [59] 6/1 6/6
leftnand 2] 84/18 I ying 46/22 50/12 list [6] 86/14 133/5 I 43/18 59/8 86/8 92/7 I 6/23 11/19 15/10
legacy [1] 229/16 I 98/14 61/7 61/23 76/6] 134/8 178/24 229/13 I 96/13 189/9 171/24 I 17/24 24/11 26/1 26/2
legal [42] 12/1 13/19 I 90/12 92/11 9320 I 230/25 looking [38] 8/12 I 26/10 26/16 26/25
‘aia 21/5 21/8 24/14I 102/7 102/11 123/10 Ilisted [1] 85/18 14/19 11/22 24/18 I 29/6 29/11 30/22
216 21/16 219 I 137/21 14/3 147/8 listen [4] 229/1 28/1 34/17 49/25 50/5) 32/20 37/10 47/13
21/23 22/4 20/16 185/18 187/3 217/19 Ilistened [3] 179/21 I 58/23 87/10 91/2 51/1 53/19 53/20 54/1
32/20 23/21 23/24 [Levelling [1] 81/4 I 22/8 232/2 94/16 96/10 96/25 I 54/10 56/6 59/11
24/1 26/12 26/19 levels [6] 18/17 24/1 Ilistening [6] 63/1 100/7 100/13 108/13 I 91/13 100/9 112/23
26/23 27/3 27/6 27/8 I 43/19 142/6 147/9 128/21 128/21 154/24) 112/9 114/4 114/4 113/7 117/24 118/9
27/14 27/21 66/22 184/9 243/9 245/2 114/5 128/7 129/3 119/15 119/18 120/9
114/23 134/24 142/19Ilicence [1] 223/20 litany [1] 53/1 132/19 152/8 153/23 I 130/16 131/4 135/7
lie [1] 66/20 litigating [1] 219/15 I 155/16 155/24 164/18) 135/13 136/22 144/11
167/16 190/3 190/3 I, 7 1
190/24 191/16 196/9 Ilife [13] 8/1 62/19 litigation [5] 45/13 I 167/12 170/2 170/6 I 160/5 160/17 164/16
219/14 235/11 235/11] 180/9 180/11 180/12 I 82/22 153/1 153/1 177/2 178/11 190/25 I 165/14 167/18 169/7
542/18 242/19 244/9 I 180/19 181/2 181/6 I 158/18 198/22 200/9 234/12 I 170/21 180/15 195/20
244/15 244/20 181/12 182/4 187/20 Ilittle [6] 30/19 84/3 Ilooks [5] 62/16 85/22I 199/2 199/14 200/1
legally [1] 185/14 I 200/25 202/7 94/20 150/5 168/14 I 165/10 231/9 231/13 I 207/8 209/10 231/3
legislation [7] 6/10 life's [1] 102/18 170/20 Lord [2] 125/10 231/22 234/24 239/6
36/12 36/9 38/1 39/1 Ilifetime [1] 161/4 _Ilive [3] 72/19 145/17 I 153/6 240/2
39/8 49/20 light [10] 68/8 100/20] 158/11 Lorna [9] 94/10 magazine [1] 80/10
legislators [1] 130/10 135/12 195/22Ilives [4] 98/11 100/1 I 123/19 123/20 124/21I magnitude [1]
167/25 201/10 203/16 210/3 I 238/7 238/12 126/3 126/22 130/8 I 116/18
legitimate [2] 3019 I 211/18 239/1 living [1] 57/22 136/11 136/17 Mail [2] 146/21 154/3
40/10 lightly [2] 83/22 84/6 ILLP [1] 2/25 lose [3] 103/21 main [3] 85/5 86/1
length [13] 48/11 _Ilike [52] 15/20 23/18 Ilobbying [1] 240/14 I 172/14 172/17 141/20,
51/8 64/10 64/16 73/6I 26/6 28/4 31/22 33/6 Ilocal [3] 76/3 76/10 losing [1] 17/3 maintain [3] 29/14
78/20 79/4 91/1 93/16I 93/1041/10.43/17_ I 77/10 loss [6] 19/24 20/5 I 142/16 146/2
117/13 121/24 141/1 I 43/21 44/20 49/9 50/9I located [1] 141/9 77/12 100/12 165/3_ Imaintained [1]
169/24 62/16 71/22 72/5 Logica [1] 79/21 165/3 179/20
lens [1] 196/24 75/13 76/8 76/16 \London [10] 183/14 Ilosses [1] 204/17 _ {maintaining [1]
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saris 08/18 169/48 I 98/14 100/22 121/22 I 190/12 190/25 191/2 I 74/3 74/10 135/22 Majesty's [1] 81/18
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2314/7 221/23 232/20 Iliked [1] 161/18 4100/2 417/14 120/19 127/1 I 44/13 49/18 50/2 52/4I
533/19 233/19 239/19] liKelihood [2] 105/4 look [64] 6/7 8/3 9/11I 139/9 144/14 146/22 I 54/11 55/19 56/24
238/1 243/18 111/21 14/24 23/19 41/6 154/18 171/23 219/15] 57/5 57/10 57/11
likely [3] 46/1 96/19 I 41/14 43/21 49/16 I 219/19 68/15 69/9 70/20 79/5
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M 208/9 238/2 239/5 112/15 116/4 117/19 Imeet [17] 47/19 might [41] 12/7 12/13)
make... [43] 87/18 240/1 240/1 243/15 I 117/19 121/9 122/13 I 54/18 69/16 98/3 12/21 15/8 22/18
88/23 94/15 95/24 243/15 122/17 122/22 123/12) 108/21 117/1117/2 I 25/18 34/23 40/3
98/13 107/23 108/6 IMarch [4] 13/8 20/19 I 124/16 127/20 127/25) 117/11 117/13 117/15) 43/20 57/10 58/12
108/10 108/25 109/22! 30/12 209/23 129/25 130/1 131/4 117/19 117/19 122/17I 64/8 66/10 68/21
409/25 110/2 112/21 IMarked [1] 132/14 I 1314/7 134/7 131/19 I 122/22 130/8 159/18 I 72/17 77/16 89/5 98/3
114/17 120/6 123/13 IMassive [3] 120/15 I 139/18 141/16 143/6 I 176/5 98/16 108/10 108/15
120/15 125/21 144/23 145/1 152/25 Imeeting [37] 15/3 109/11 111/15 111/16)
Barks teen Tere massively [1] 185/14] 153/22 155/8 163/11 I 56/21 56/22 74/8 85/9I 114/4 114/5 115/1
145/7 146/14 147/5 _ Imaster [1] 216/14 168/1 168/4 168/18 I 86/8 86/9 88/12 92/18) 115/7 124/2 132/7
148/6 148/15 148/19 IMaterial [12] 48/11 I 168/20 169/22 172/20) 94/9 95/20 107/4 143/1 143/24 146/4
148/23 152/21 158/10I 188/1 197/11 202/9 I 173/8 173/23 176/14 I 117/17 127/14 128/4 I 149/15 154/3 154/14
160/19 165/7 16/8 I 206/9 206/20 206/21 I 179/24 185/7 185/18 I 129/4 131/6 143/17 _I 163/17 205/24 215/12
166/11 167/21 167/23I 206/24 206/24 208/21] 187/2 187/9 188/16 I 159/15 159/15 159/21] 227/6 230/21
1469/25 182/11 182/15] 212/12 234/10 188/21 188/21 190/19) 205/9 211/23 226/14 I million [2] 222/14
189/14 209/6 209/11 IMaterially [1] 48/2 190/21 191/18 198/18) 226/16 226/25 227/18) 223/3
matter [17] 1/16 208/8 221/5 225/16 I 227/21 228/20 228/22I mind [9] 18/1 29/4
maker [2] 88/9
169/18
makers [1] 114/2
27/11 50/23 53/11 226/17 227/2 229/17 I 229/18 230/18 241/4 I 71/17 99/8 124/21
54/17 54/18 54/24 235/7 237/5 240/3 244/4 245/24 246/5 I 145/8 146/18 151/20
98/10 190/3 193/6 I 241/25 244/3 245/11 I 246/9 156/20
haa mad 194/12 195/18 204/2 I 246/1 246/4 246/6 _I meetings [12] 3/20 Imindedness [1]
Tet Ded oer I 208/4 206/22 207/19 I 246/13 88/12 88/13 92/15 I 63/25
aoa sori serie I 208/4 mean [43] 7/24 8/5_I 117/11 122/12 122/20I mindful [3] 101/8
58/24 62/9 62/24 73/9IMattered [1] 156/15 I 33/15 34/2 42/21 43/3I 143/2 149/10 159/17 I 151/17 159/23
85/24 88/19 8/22 (Matters [23] 4/2 4/15) 43/22 62/2 68/17 69/3) 229/4 241/11 minds [2] 58/20
39/9 97/6 98/19 103/1I 7/6 8/22 11/1 15/21 I 72/18 75/20 89/21 Imeets [1] 69/13 75/23
103/6 105/1 111/25 I 92/12 51/18 53/11 89/22 89/24 90/16 Melanie [1] 179/21 Imindset [1] 202/17
114/14 122/14 146/21I 95/12 103/21 199/19 I 122/8 123/2 125/3 member [6] 4/17 mine [3] 79/12
147/10 147/24 1496 I 205/21 207/3 210/22 I 131/7 131/16 132/2 I 65/3 80/13 81/18 98/7) 128/13 170/14
1449/14 157/1 15914. I 2141/7 218/8 239/16 I 132/3 135/17 139/16 I 114/5 minimum [2] 31/7
160/14 160/16 165/18I 2439/5 243/14 243/20 I 148/16 150/4 150/16 Imembers [14] 9/5 177/18
1467/6 170/1 172/12 I 243/23 244/13 153/22 158/3 159/13 I 11/15 11/22 11/23 minister [44] 4/20
172/18 173/1 173/10 IMay [55] 9/22 16/25 I 186/8 207/4 210/11 I 40/11 58/25 59/7 4/20 12/25 13/10 15/1
181/11 182/6 188/24 I 19/25 19/3 19/17 213/15 230/1 231/20 I 100/4 101/14 133/13 I 15/4 15/13 18/12
192/10 223/4 246/24 I 20/19 28/24 29/10 231/22 233/7 233/9 I 133/14 159/7 228/24 I 30/14 31/16 34/10
manage [5] 122/5 I 31/21 30/24 42/5 49/6I 233/11 242/26 248/1 I 236/25 34/10 44/1 45/25 46/3
1328 T4517 170/19 I 49/25 63/2 78/8 83/21Imeaning [1] 4/6 Imembership [1] __I 50/25 56/20 71/2
173/16 96/9 108/3 117/7__Imeaningful [1] 20/1) 67/24 74/14 72/11 72/24
119/10 119/10 131/20Imeans [12] 48/7 memory [1] 231/6 73/22 75/21 80/24
138/15 140/2 157/17 I 48/21 51/9 51/15 mental [1] 229/14 81/3 83/10 83/11
160/13 165/12 169/8 I 51/19 94/3 149/7 mention [2] 43/3 84/20 85/22 86/11
managed [4] 9/25
11/3 91/10 142/20
management [9]
171/13 171/22 183/19] 150/25 181/12 212/18) 142/14 86/19 87/21 94/8
bre SOOO oapa 184/1 184/21 186/1 I 230/5 239/8 mentioned [8] 1/8 107/11 108/10 112/5
218/12 245/16 186/2 186/3 192/15 Imeant [11] 14/11 44/1 59/3 142/23 117/16 131/5 132/6
managers [2] 11/14 193/13 196/15 197/13] 32/3 32/21 130/22 182/8 200/4 237/12 I 137/17 143/24 148/19
45/15 197/21 198/20 199/4 I 145/21 176/11 180/12I 239/18 156/16 167/8
201/16 202/22 204/18) 180/13 181/17 202/7 Imerely [1] 145/9 minister's [1] 93/11
managing [3] 94/18 tari
Tada ng Bl 211/20 219/7 232/17 I 212/11 mess [1] 125/19 ministerial [24] 3/20
232/23 234/7 238/21 Imeasure [1] 19/13 Imessage [1] 124/14 I 82/17 83/8 83/12
mandates [1] 3/17 I 54473 242/1 242/7 Imeasures [4] 67/1 Imet [12] 74/6 117/5. I 83/14 85/15 86/14
manaatory (? maybe [11] 35/25 I 100/13 111/20 142/21) 118/1 121/13 124/24 I 87/7 88/15 90/11
manifesting [1] 46/7 56/18 62/4 96/23I mechanics [1] 71/9 I 207/13 207/14 207/15I 105/22 106/10 106/12
178/23 110/8 111/22 119/25 Imechanism [11] 226/18 227/18 232/15] 107/20 107/25 108/3
manoeuvre [1] 131/24 132/15 155/21] 14/24 15/9 24/7 24/10I 240/1 408/11 109/6 109/11
TT tpo4 me [98] 1/14 4/3 5/3 I 24/13 24/23 25/4 I metric [1] 137/23 I 109/16 110/14 110/16
many [34] 9/5 10/14 9/5 34/11 34/11 34/18) 51/20 64/24 65/22 micromanaged [1] 110/22 111/11
Ta ae Deity I 36/24 50/12 51/3 54/9] 65/22 89/3 ministers [42] 33/4
26/21 34/4 36/8 45/12I 24/15 59/22 72/16 mechanisms [3] _I mid [3] 118/24 52/13 62/10 71/18
75/10 75/14 75/21 I 11/24 52/6 65/10 I 120/11 153/8 85/21 86/13 87/8 89/1
54/18 54/18 66/5 a"
66/22 67/18 76/18 83/7 85/25 87/9 88/17Imedia [5] 41/1 42/24 Imid-2022 [1] 153/8 I 90/5 90/5 90/7 90/23
93/15 100/1 113/3 88/23 89/4 89/7 91/8 I 118/20 120/7 127/19 Imid-sentence [2] 91/5 91/23 92/13 93/8,
417/13 121/14 130/16 91/18 92/22 95/7 medium [1] 142/10 I 118/24 120/11 123/1 125/16 125/18
161/24 163/8 182/9 I 95/10 96/24 99/12 medium-term [1] middle [3] 15/1 84/17I 131/19 144/6 152/15
101/19 108/5 109/13 I 142/10 153/8 152/19 152/19 152/20)
(86) make... - ministers
INQ00001205
INQ00001205
M 234/9 243/25 245/11 I 149/10 149/22 149/24) 59/25 60/1 61/9 63/16) 1/20 3/23 4/3 8/25
ministers... [17] Monday [3] 1/1 149/25 150/1 150/2 I 73/23 75/4 77/17 11/20 14/6 15/14 17/5)
152/24 153/11 153/13I 127/14 129/5 150/15 150/15 150/20I 77/23 78/10 80/24 20/3 21/1 21/24 25/25
153/15 154/6 154/15 IMoney [92] 9/21 9/23] 151/6 151/7 152/15 I 80/24 84/20 85/15 27/17 30/4 31/2 34/20
154/17 154/24 156/12I 10/9 10/9 10/11 10/19] 153/15 154/21 156/12) 101/13 101/17 104/7 I 35/19 36/10 39/3 40/5
156/20 157/14 157/20I 10/19 10/21 10/25 156/14 157/25 164/17) 105/9 105/20 115/8 I 42/2 42/20 45/7 63/16}
159/25 165/11 166/10I 11/4 12/7 12/15 16/7 I 166/14 166/14 166/15) 116/9 116/24 117/2 I 77/23 168/3 173/17
166/21 170/6 16/18 16/25 17/3 18/9I 166/15 166/15 166/15) 117/20 117/21 118/8 I 174/4 175/3 177/10
ministers’ [1] 93/24 18/13 18/16 19/5 168/18 169/5 169/20 I 119/14 119/20 120/11] 184/20 185/7 186/9
Ministry [3] 36/14 19/13 20/2 21/15 170/21 171/23 172/6 I 122/16 122/24 122/25I 186/20 188/21 197/14
37/14 37/21 29/19 40/24 43/6 56/5) 193/22 195/10 211/17) 123/5 123/6 123/7 201/7 206/17 209/16
minor [1] 132/3 95/13 95/17 96/15 212/6 215/11 229/9 I 132/19 132/23 133/4 I 222/1 225/13 237/13
minority [4] 167/2 96/15 97/23 98/2 233/19 237/3 237/5 I 134/4 134/15 135/3 I 248/4 249/3
minute [5] 41/11 42/8 100/17 101/5 101/8 I 238/11 239/21 240/9 I 135/6 138/3 139/5 Mr Blake's [1] 45/20
70/15 77/23 225/17 I 101/25 103/23 106/2 I 240/10 240/13 139/10 151/19 151/24IMr Brocklesby [1]
minute's [3] 1/9 42/5 108/7 108/9 108/12 Imore creative [1] 152/10 153/7 153/9 I 180/21
42/9 108/17 108/17 108/19I 240/9 153/10 155/11 155/20I Mr Enright [4] 54/15
minutes [11] 1/13 108/20 108/21 109/1 Imorning [19] 1/3 1/4 I 157/8 157/9 157/12 I 241/2 245/24 246/9
70/19 77/24 119/7 109/2 109/7 109/9 48/18 49/19 59/25 157/17 158/20 159/3 IMr Fujitsu [1] 244/15
119/23 120/6 120/8 I 109/12 110/15 110/17I 70/12 71/2 71/4 73/16] 160/6 162/22 163/16 IMr Henry [3] 168/4
225/2 225/5 225/13 I 110/18 110/18 111/23] 75/10 107/4 162/24 I 165/20 166/20 167/17) 168/6 168/11
225/16 112/8 112/24 114/1 I 165/17 165/23 172/20I 168/3 168/4 168/6 Mr Hollinrake [8]
misalignment [1] 114/9 114/10 114/11 I 206/21 212/1 221/2 I 168/10 168/11 168/12I 84/20 85/15 101/13
60/15 114/15 124/4 142/17 I 224/21 169/1 169/2 172/20 I 101/17 105/9 123/6
miscarriage [3] 144/4 146/13 147/1 Imorning's [1] 240/12I 173/17 174/1 174/4 I 123/7 169/1
176/24 243/13 243/17I 147/1 150/3 156/10 Imost [17] 7/10 14/2 I 174/8 175/3 177/10 _IMr Hunt [1] 104/7
miscarriages [2] 159/14 165/18 166/9 I 17/9 25/21 38/12 180/21 182/19 184/20IMr Hunt's [1] 105/20
65/20 Terie 166/12 166/12 166/18] 40/10 46/10 81/10 185/7 185/16 186/9 _IMr Johnson [1]
171/22 172/1 172/6 I 81/15 83/13 94/7 186/20 187/1 187/13 I 80/24
misinformation [1]
130/19
misogyny [1] 135/6
172/9 172/24 173/1 I 125/22 133/18 143/2 I 188/21 190/2 190/10 IMr Justice Fraser [2]
188/14 221/24 222/5 I 162/4 165/20 222/10 I 191/19 191/25 192/13} 47/13 48/3
missing [4] 83/9 229/13 234/7 239/25 Imount [1] 235/9 193/23 197/2 197/14 IMr Kelly [1] 241/4
179/5 180/6 215/15 I 240/3 244/6 mouth [1] 244/6 199/3 201/7 203/17 IMr Kelly's [1] 241/3
mistakes [3] 130/17 month [3] 81/14 move [14] 33/10 77/9I 206/17 207/15 208/7 IMr Kwarteng [1]
104/4 219/1 98/11 102/13 111/9 I 209/16 211/2 221/2 I 153/7
138/19 169/7
mitigates [1] 19/21 months [27] 5/24 6/2I 111/12 112/2 127/11 I 222/1 224/19 224/24 IMr Patterson [34]
Mm [23] 48/6 84/15 6/3 13/24 29/5 46/17 I 138/16 158/19 189/17I 225/4 225/9 225/13 I 54/25 55/5 55/11
84/21 85/14 86/22 49/17 56/2 60/22 209/18 212/3 218/16 I 226/2 226/5 226/22 I 56/18 59/11 158/20
88/3 89/15 92/7 100/6I 94/20 96/1 99/9 103/8Imoved [2] 9/23 80/5 I 231/11 231/14 231/17I 159/3 160/6 174/1
105/21 123/21 136/7 I 116/2 123/24 125/3 Imoves [2] 160/1 231/18 232/13 232/14] 174/8 185/16 187/1
141/12 144/10 153/4 I 149/11 178/19 179/1 I 204/10 232/15 232/21 233/10] 187/13 208/7 225/9
155/15 165/21 171/15I 179/4 205/1 219/19 Imoving [9] 104/17 I 233/12 233/23 234/9 I 226/5 226/22 231/14
1493/9 197/20 199/15 I 224/13 226/18 228/11] 120/17 125/7 127/9 I 234/14 234/25 236/10] 231/18 232/15 233/12
204/23 237/17 238/2 243/9 165/15 178/4 210/25 I 237/13 239/2 240/18 I 234/14 234/25 236/10)
Mm-hm [4] 123/21 moral [3] 55/19 223/19 228/1 240/20 241/2 241/3 I 240/20 241/7 242/8
197/20 204/23 237/17I 219/11 219/17 MP [9] 1/19 78/9 241/4 241/7 241/11 I 242/12 244/5 244/25
mobile [1] 128/22 morally [1] 219/22 I 80/13 82/10 83/14 242/8 242/12 242/13 I 245/1 245/13 245/19
MoD [1] 223/11 more [98] 1/13 9/16 I 97/1 98/22 248/2 242/17 244/5 244/15 I 246/22
model [16] 5/1 7/14 10/6 10/18 16/8 16/11] 248/14 244/25 245/1 245/13 IMr Railton [7] 49/3
8/3 8/11 40/22 40/23 I 18/21 22/9 23/6 27/6 IMPs [1] 219/3 245/18 245/19 245/24) 155/11 155/20 157/8
4118 42/13 43/6 44/14I 40/24 41/24 43/10 Mr [212] 1/4 1/5 1/20 I 246/1 246/9 246/14 I 157/12 157/17 211/2
48/19 49/2 50/21 61/2I 46/5 51/4 54/23 64/9 I 3/23 4/3 8/25 11/20 I 246/18 246/22 248/4 IMr Read [7] 60/1
63/20 69/6 64/20 64/25 77/1 14/6 15/14 17/5 20/3 I 248/6 248/16 248/18 I 169/2 182/19 192/13
models [2} 42/23 _ I 81/19 82/10 87/3 87/4] 21/1 21/24 25/26 26/6) 248/22 249/3 249/7 I 193/23 199/3 232/21
64/1 91/12 94/11 96/17 I 26/20 27/17 28/8 30/4I Mr Bartlett [3] Mr Recaldin [1] 58/8
modern [3] 58/25 I 97/5, 100/2 102/20 I 31/2 34/20 36/19 190/10 197/2 203/17 IMr Rees-Mogg [1]
68/5 167/16 103/14 103/24 106/14I 36/10 39/3 40/5 42/2 IMr Bartlett's [1] 153/9
Mogg [1] 153/9 108/15 114/17 114/18I 42/20 45/7 45/8 45/9 I 191/25 Mr Reynolds [16] 1/5
momont (16) 48/7 I 15/4 121/17 122/7 I 45/10.45/20.47/13 MR BEER [8] 78/10 I 26/6 26/20 28/8 45/10
4918 51/10 89/17 122/11 122/24 122/25I 48/3 49/3 49/4 50/22 I 115/8 151/24 152/10 I 49/4 50/22 52/7 52/21
120/23 124/16 151/20) 123/3 124/6 124/11 I 50/26 52/7 52/21 165/20 167/17 168/10I 58/18 59/18 59/25
480/15 182/8 197/12 I 129/24 132/16 137/10] 54/15 54/25 55/5 248/16 75/4 77/17 172/20
137/13 137/17 144/14] 55/11 56/18 58/8 Mr Beer's [1] 157/9 I 221/2
198/23 202/11 229/21 148/1 148/12 149/1 I 58/18 59/11 59/18 Mr Blake [45] 1/4 Mr Shapps [1]
(87) ministers... - Mr Shapps
INQ00001205
INQ00001205
M
Mr Shapps... [1]
153/10
Mr Staunton [21]
116/9 116/24 117/2
117/20 117/21 118/8
119/14 119/20 120/11
122/16 122/24 122/25)
123/5 132/19 134/4
134/15 135/3 135/6
138/3 139/5 139/10
Mr Staunton's [2]
132/23 133/4
Mr Stein [27] 45/8
45/9 61/9 73/23
162/22 163/16 166/20)
224/19 224/24 225/4
226/2 231/17 232/13
232/14 233/10 233/23
234/9 239/2 240/18
241/11 242/13 242/17,
245/18 246/1 246/18
248/6 249/7
Mr Sunak [1] 80/24
Mr Thomas [1] 50/25
Mr Walton [2] 190/2
191/19
Mr Woodley [1]
207/15
Ms [30] 59/20 59/21
70/7 70/16 70/25 71/1
78/11 89/25 99/5
115/21 151/13 151/20)
152/14 153/5 155/19
162/14 162/16 162/17)
168/1 171/5 173/7
224/19 224/24 226/2
226/4 226/9 248/8
248/10 248/20 249/5
Ms Andrea [1] 153/5
Ms Badenoch [13]
70/16 78/11 89/25
99/5 115/21 151/13
152/14 155/19 162/14
162/17 168/1 171/5
173/7
Ms Patrick [12] 70/7
70/25 71/1 162/16
224/19 224/24 226/2
226/4 226/9 248/10
248/20 249/5
Ms Shah [3] 59/20
59/21 248/8
much [88] 1/21 1/24
2/14 6/4 12/13 15/2
26/16 28/1 28/6 28/10
30/5 35/12 35/15
35/20 41/7 42/10 45/2
50/9 50/15 58/15
58/20 64/5 70/5 70/21
72/19 77/1 77/17 78/2
78/7 78/24 79/2 79/10)
79/17 87/16 92/19
95/12 97/8 97/18
97/20 107/12 110/4
111/3 112/19 115/12
118/12 120/17 122/6
122/7 122/10 122/23
122/25 123/3 127/11
131/2 131/13 131/16
131/18 137/13 138/25)
139/2 139/13 141/2
144/4 146/2 151/6
151/14 168/13 170/2
170/7 170/18 172/13
173/6 173/25 174/5
175/7 175/24 176/1
176/11 184/3 193/24
201/13 205/4 206/7
209/17 234/15 238/11
245/3 246/17
multiple [7] 92/13
102/11 179/17 201/24)
212/18 233/16 236/12
muscle [1] 55/7
must [10] 40/13
83/19 104/21 124/10
124/10 148/10 167/19)
167/20 167/21 170/13)
muted [1] 129/2
mutualisation [2]
41/5 42/23
my [142] 2/10 2/25
3/1 3/3 4/10 4/14 4/20
11/3 11/10 17/8 21/25)
22/8 22/8 23/2 26/6
26/8 27/5 28/9 28/21
29/16 31/17 32/2
32/16 32/19 36/24
39/22 40/5 42/7 43/9
43/15 45/10 46/21
47/9 50/16 52/12
53/16 55/17 56/15
71/4 71/18 72/8 72/14
75/7 76/3 77/7 78/11
78/14 83/8 83/13
83/14 85/18 86/12
86/20 87/9 87/13 88/9
95/1 95/5 95/20 96/16)
98/9 99/10 100/19
101/18 101/24 102/3
102/19 102/25 103/5
103/9 107/13 108/18
109/14 109/17 110/8
1141/1 114/17 111/21
113/11 117/9 122/4
125/12 126/25 130/7
134/13 137/19 143/18)
143/23 143/25 144/14)
146/9 146/17 151/13
156/11 159/3 159/7
162/17 166/5 170/19
173/14 176/9 176/15
177/10 178/21 179/9
179/10 185/15 186/11
187/12 190/23 197/2
201/14 205/17 207/9
207/16 207/17 210/13
211/13 211/23 212/9
212/9 212/15 215/9
216/20 218/16 219/15
219/16 224/13 225/7
226/9 228/7 229/17
231/6 231/12 235/4
235/11 236/11 237/2
237/20 241/3 243/18
246/7
myself [12] 1/15
10/22 26/1 32/1 73/3
98/5 101/25 112/5
129/23 131/19 168/16
232/7
N
nail [3] 123/24 124/4
124/7
name [10] 1/22 45/10
71/4 78/11 78/13
78/14 162/17 174/6
215/23 226/9
namely [1] 85/11
names [1] 159/17
narrow [9] 12/17
92/3 180/1 180/1
189/16 197/3 198/5
213/19 236/16
national [6] 8/1 9/13
44/3 46/22 60/1 62/19
natural [5] 42/4
76/10 94/12 102/19
218/11
Naturally [1] 194/16
nature [14] 39/2
61/22 63/20 64/10
69/7 69/19 70/2 84/25
86/1 90/17 154/16
155/4 157/1 191/22
NBIT [14] 72/19
142/18 142/22 142/24
142/25 143/3 143/8
143/11 143/21 144/12
154/2 171/24 212/14
212/14
near [2] 22/23 118/16)
necessarily [17] 18/7
43/14 59/5 74/24
117/11 117/17 120/10
131/20 138/15 139/8
140/21 154/21 161/12
167/4 167/5 169/22
210/9
necessary [8] 35/7
35/19 55/24 56/22
152/22 194/23 195/19)
204/18
necessitate [1] 63/23)
NEDs [1] 139/15
need [102] 4/19 4/23
7/15 7/18 20/19 28/3
49/17 49/23 53/5 53/7
53/11 53/12 53/13
53/20 54/7 54/10 57/4
58/4 58/5 59/15 60/6
60/25 63/2 67/8 70/13
70/15 76/11 77/19
77/24 89/6 99/12
99/13 101/6 101/13
102/19 107/13 109/8
110/2 110/17 112/20
113/13 115/4 123/17
123/22 124/7 124/11
124/13 124/20 124/23)
125/5 125/21 125/25
126/6 126/7 126/9
126/20 127/17 128/5
128/10 129/9 132/4
137/16 141/7 145/7
147/12 148/7 149/2
149/10 149/15 155/4
160/11 161/13 161/15)
166/3 166/11 167/10
167/12 167/23 170/24)
171/8 171/21 172/17
174/13 179/25 182/11
182/16 189/24 190/18)
191/4 198/9 198/11
198/11 199/19 215/12)
221/18 225/12 230/19
236/19 237/2 243/23
244/6 246/10
needed [22] 9/10
12/3 23/9 29/25 39/8
40/21 72/1 87/11
87/17 88/24 95/8
95/24 120/4 120/22
127/1 143/6 144/5
144/19 166/24 170/19)
170/20 222/24
needing [1] 63/20
needn't [3] 58/14
101/11 119/3
needs [20] 7/20
50/13 57/24 57/25
64/2 92/7 96/15
145/12 146/17 146/19)
150/6 166/25 171/23
180/16 208/3 211/8
212/10 236/15 236/15
243/19
negotiations [1] 3/17
NEIL [3] 1/19 1/23
248/2
neither [5] 57/7
90/21 112/17 187/12
196/6
nervous [1] 218/10
nervousness [2]
218/12 237/24
net [2] 178/11 178/15
network [7] 3/21
67/16 85/13 124/15
124/17 142/19 179/18)
neutrally [1] 208/11
never [19] 23/18 29/9)
34/4 34/5 67/15 71/25
102/24 117/19 118/1
120/3 120/3 120/4
121/13 121/25 124/21
149/7 156/7 186/9
202/17
new [50] 10/9 10/9
10/11 14/13 19/3
24/15 25/6 33/4 33/5
33/10 37/6 46/11
48/18 48/19 49/2
57/12 59/12 71/12
TANT 71/17 71/23
76/7 76/15 84/7 94/20,
113/19 131/9 133/19
142/18 142/22 144/17)
157/23 167/4 180/12
181/16 181/18 181/25)
187/15 207/15 212/5
214/7 215/20 216/1
221/8 222/7 223/8
224/12 231/8 231/12
245/16
news [2] 83/2 83/7
newspapers [1] 97/2
next [22] 2/20 13/9
20/21 24/19 30/18
30/22 31/19 44/2 46/4,
47/5 47/6 47/7 47/7
47/10 49/7 128/4
129/21 189/13 199/4
216/17 227/2 243/1
NFSP [3] 67/5 67/25
69/10
NHS [2] 113/12
172/11
Nick [15] 126/2 130/4
168/22 169/3 169/5
169/8 170/20 170/23
182/24 205/8 205/8
205/10 205/17 206/5
207/13
Nigel [4] 139/22
147/5 155/25 170/22
nightmare [2] 37/15
120/21
nights [1] 113/18
nine [3] 78/19 226/25
230/11
no [93] 8/25 13/17
14/6 18/25 19/14
19/16 27/5 29/2 33/7
35/8 35/9 42/2 55/16
60/6 61/21 64/20 67/8
70/10 74/2 74/8 74/14,
75/2 82/10 82/20 93/6)
96/4 99/13 102/10
103/17 110/14 110/15)
110/18 111/5 111/22
113/9 116/6 116/15
116/17 116/20 117/3
117/3 117/6 118/11
118/11 119/2 123/7
123/7 123/7 123/7
127/15 131/2 131/5
(88) Mr Shapps... - no
INQ00001205
INQ00001205
N
no... [41] 134/6
134/10 137/12 137/12)
139/7 139/11 141/7
142/25 143/9 143/12
144/15 150/3 150/11
155/23 158/3 160/4
162/25 162/25 163/8
163/21 169/15 170/24)
186/7 186/9 188/20
200/16 201/2 209/1
215/2 224/6 226/23
227/3 229/2 229/2
229/25 234/3 237/20
240/4 241/10 242/17
246/4
nobody [2] 166/5
198/16
nodding [2] 226/22
227/3
nominally [1] 20/10
nominate [1] 209/6
non [3] 100/20 139/6
191/10
Non-Executive [1]
139/6
non-financial [1]
100/20
non-provision [1]
191/10
none [2] 134/1
198/24
nor [4] 90/21 118/25
134/4 196/6
normal [4] 86/11
120/2 225/7 240/15
normally [1] 140/22
not [348]
note [18] 14/1 15/24
21/1 31/17 105/1
118/16 118/16 118/19)
119/3 131/5 131/7
132/9 135/1 135/1
136/5 157/9 191/20
195/17
noted [3] 129/19
182/4 209/22
notes [6] 119/9
119/16 131/17 132/13}
207/17 229/17
notetaker [1] 119/6
nothing [13] 112/7
113/6 116/14 116/16
116/18 116/20 117/6
134/10 155/23 158/1
161/25 168/1 179/19
noting [2] 13/23
107/18
notion [1] 243/11
novel [1] 42/15
November [2] 1/1
66/12
now [90] 8/18 9/13
10/16 12/25 21/19
26/15 31/13 31/25
34/22 37/7 42/4 42/5
42/8 47/11 48/9 50/8
50/10 51/5 53/3 55/7
58/8 59/22 59/23 61/5
64/19 67/5 70/11
70/18 73/25 80/1
97/23 99/8 110/1
113/13 115/2 118/8
118/22 118/22 120/17)
122/16 123/12 123/16)
130/14 130/18 131/19)
140/21 142/22 145/22
147/7 151/4 152/24
155/11 157/21 158/16)
158/19 160/13 163/12)
163/16 166/20 168/3
169/9 171/23 173/13
196/8 198/20 201/6
207/14 207/15 208/9
214/12 216/21 217/7
219/7 219/17 220/6
225/6 227/5 227/14
228/11 228/13 230/15
231/6 231/7 233/6
238/1 238/2 239/21
242/24 243/8 243/24
nuanced [2] 27/7
190/19
Nuclear [1] 223/17
nudge [1] 155/22
number [46] 2/15
5/25 11/18 13/10
15/17 19/3 22/25
29/21 37/8 39/18
40/19 45/3 45/11
46/15 46/25 48/9 63/2
70/6 71/5 71/20
117/24 136/3 141/24
162/18 169/24 176/8
178/2 181/22 192/12
194/3 196/20 198/21
207/12 210/15 220/21
221/11 221/16 221/18
222/1 222/3 226/10
229/1 232/1 232/1
244/1 246/13
number 1 [1] 141/24
number 2 [1] 181/22
numbers [1] 70/11
nuts [1] 43/6
fe)
objections [1] 109/5
objective [10] 27/15
33/4 60/14 64/4 103/1
105/6 163/13 164/19
166/7 192/6
objectives [3] 29/14
142/12 146/18
obligation [5] 146/20
154/5 219/12 219/17
223/12
obligation’ [1] 219/10
obligations [6] 47/20
66/13 66/15 204/13
223/16 223/22
observation [1] 56/9
observe [1] 169/23
observed [1] 102/22
observers [1] 91/9
obsolescence [1]
181/25
obtain [3] 201/9
201/18 203/7
obtaining [2] 27/8
48/10
obvious [3] 7/17
26/21 191/14
obviously [24] 6/9
9/4 12/1 14/14 17/6
17/13 18/18 27/8 31/3
31/25 32/7 32/17 34/5
36/14 37/5 38/9 38/22
41/9 47/12 65/4 70/3
74/16 74/23 206/25
occasion [2] 59/12
120/5
occasions [3] 71/20
101/20 177/18
occur [3] 67/15 210/3I
236/14
occurred [4] 82/13
89/8 214/20 222/6
occurrence [1] 35/1
occurring [1] 131/15
October [1] 79/3
odd [2] 48/8 51/7
off [22] 29/2 42/22
61/17 111/16 145/20
149/4 160/15 173/14
181/20 185/14 186/6
186/25 187/11 223/19
231/12 237/15 237/19
237/22 239/21 239/25
240/18 242/10
offences [3] 33/11
40/20 206/13
offer [22] 6/1 6/17
13/20 16/17 21/10
23/11 26/10 26/14
26/16 26/17 26/20
27/21 29/5 48/1 68/6
100/22 100/25 101/3
107/19 124/1 134/16
205/3
offered [4] 6/14
13/17 21/19 246/6
offering [4] 14/16
19/16 23/24 160/3
offers [1] 26/9
office [321]
Office's [20] 43/4
85/12 92/5 93/5
133/24 142/1 142/5
143/10 143/21 179/11
182/10 187/23 194/5
197/16 203/7 205/23
210/5 210/7 211/1
236/23
Officer [3] 101/4
101/23 175/20
officer's [1] 203/11
offices [1] 76/3
official [5] 12/14 88/8
89/6 118/17 132/14
officially [1] 92/22
officials [18] 19/12
20/18 31/18 56/14
89/22 95/10 95/14
98/12 99/11 101/22
109/14 118/13 133/2
135/7 154/14 154/24
160/17 166/11
often [18] 89/4 90/24
94/6 97/8 103/17
109/11 109/16 111/4
112/6 117/14 131/18
154/7 154/8 154/15
155/3 170/8 170/10
178/22
oh [4] 123/25 151/5
172/16 226/24
okay [21] 8/17 55/10
62/21 70/5 70/14 78/1
99/3 116/21 119/13
133/9 151/23 157/21
163/10 165/15 171/7
209/14 226/7 231/13
235/19 237/13 243/3
old [8] 33/3 181/19
181/20 182/14 200/22)
214/8 215/10 237/16
old-fashioned [1]
33/3
older [2] 68/4 216/13
Oldnall [2] 189/22
190/19
omissions [1] 236/14)
on [371]
once [10] 8/17 26/9
29/3 29/3 61/13 96/20
148/1 174/12 224/4
231/24
one [124] 1/9 11/21
15/9 20/10 26/1 26/5
28/4 40/10 41/15,
41/23 41/24 42/3 42/9
42/14 42/23 51/5,
58/25 61/4 63/13
63/14 64/17 65/5,
68/11 68/16 68/24
71/10 71/11 72/18
75/22 76/24 79/5
84/18 84/18 84/19
87/20 90/13 90/19
90/20 90/25 91/24
92/15 92/22 94/15
95/19 101/19 102/18
103/17 104/10 106/15)
112/12 113/9 116/5
117/12 121/25 122/18)
123/18 136/1 137/24
142/14 147/4 147/6
154/10 156/20 162/22)
163/1 163/9 167/13
167/15 170/14 171/4
171/9 172/9 180/17
181/11 182/9 182/11
183/1 183/8 183/13
186/9 188/15 192/24
196/24 197/5 198/17
200/6 203/9 207/16
208/18 212/15 212/16
212/19 213/18 214/12
215/1 215/2 215/3
215/11 218/2 221/6
222/10 223/13 223/17
223/24 224/19 224/19
224/22 225/12 225/13
226/12 229/21 231/18
233/19 234/1 234/4
234/25 234/25 235/7
236/1 237/4 237/6
237/12 240/2 242/4
one's [2] 120/20
120/20
one-hour [1] 92/15
one-minute's [1]
42/9
one-year [1] 172/9
ones [8] 32/22 38/12
48/17 100/12 139/17
146/13 175/8 238/6
ongoing [5] 49/5
107/6 191/23 222/21
223/25
only [31] 9/20 10/20
15/15 32/4 34/18 35/5)
49/15 57/18 64/11
66/24 68/9 69/15 71/7
83/9 89/25 100/11
121/10 152/18 162/4
162/20 171/11 183/1
183/20 194/5 198/16
198/23 199/24 203/9
224/18 226/11 238/7
onside [2] 120/22
120/23
onto [7] 3/5 3/7 12/23)
15/18 209/19 212/25
214/7
open [8] 25/10 54/12
63/25 68/11 78/17
147/6 148/20 178/20
opening [6] 111/9
127/3 140/2 200/11
200/17 201/2
openly [1] 221/1
openness [1] 54/3
operate [6] 126/5
160/25 161/1 184/23
185/1 222/6
operated [1] 26/9
operates [6] 43/12
(89) no... - operates
INQ00001205
INQ00001205
fe) 98/15 99/24 100/17 I 3/19 42/17 43/2 44/22) 220/7 220/17 235/12 I 211/19 211/21 213/8
operates... [5]. 101/19 102/9 103/8 I 63/10 63/11 63/24 237/24 239/4 242/18 I 214/6 217/5 219/24
178/13 186/15 186/18I 106/17 108/15 108/17I 67/2 69/17 73/25 74/3) 242/19 244/20 222/25 228/11 236/20
1488/5 197/24 109/4 110/21 112/16 I 77/3 92/15 94/13 ourselves [6] 14/12 I 243/15
operating [4] 151/18 112/21 112/22 113/18] 124/11 125/22 140/16) 35/6 65/9 151/8 overall [11] 3/11 3/14
114/2 114/5 114/24 I 145/4 145/19 146/4 I 219/22 222/8 5/23 8/11 10/12 19/13,
operation [3] 158/25
160/25 178/5
operational [3]
143/15 145/25 211/11
operationally [1]
116/9 116/15 116/16 I 146/15 146/25 147/2 Iout [83] 7/14 19/21 I 63/11 89/17 89/19
117/16 127/14 128/24I 147/11 156/21 157/2 I 26/18 28/25 29/19 90/2 90/10
129/5 131/25 131/25 I 158/6 158/9 163/2 38/5 40/6 52/24 53/10I overcome [1] 14/5
132/4 133/21 134/3 I 163/2 163/4 169/6 55/14 56/4 56/8 61/23) overlapped [1] 86/25
134/5 136/18 136/18 I 170/19 179/21 222/7 I 72/24 84/2 84/10 overlooked [2]
operations [1] 136/18 138/3 138/22 I 229/5 230/4 243/16 I 84/16 84/22 85/3 164/24 164/25
161/24 138/23 140/14 143/1 I organisational [1] 87/13 88/10 91/4 91/5] overly [1] 110/12
operators [1] 30/11 143/7 143/24 145/13 I 241/25 91/17 93/7 94/8 94/18] overnight [1] 134/25
opined [1] 87/21 147/21 149/17 150/3 I organisations [8] 95/13 95/17 95/21 overpay [1] 108/24
opinion [10] 27/1 154/22 156/23 158/17I 65/11 90/21 91/1 95/23 97/12 99/12 overpaying [1]
167/3 178/21 195/13 I 199/15 159/19 160/17I 122/4 163/9 219/20 I 102/10 102/13 103/24) 108/22
160/22 161/4 161/13 I 229/7 243/10 110/10 114/18 116/23] overpayment [4]
196/4 196/6 196/7
201/14 202/21 202/25
opinions [1] 169/13
opportunities [5]
163/5 163/19 227/11
164/1 164/12 165/5 Iorganised [1] 117/7 I 117/9 119/6 120/25 I 19/6 19/17 20/4 23/1
166/22 175/7 175/15 I original [1] 205/9 121/23 122/4 124/14 I overrule [3] 108/12
177/16 177/8 177/20 ated [1] 72/7 124/17 125/2 126/15 I 109/4 109/10
178/22 179/7 179/15 I originating [1] 107/2 I 133/8 134/1 136/25 I overrunning [1]
179/15 179/24 180/1 Iother [70] 4/16 9/25 I 137/12 138/4 138/20 I 144/13
caportanity [13] 180/14 184/2 185/13 I 19/1 32/12 38/18 141/23 143/11 145/2 IOverseas [1] 3/21
218 44/14 56/19 186/1 186/11 187/11 I 39/10 39/11 48/20 154/12 155/16 155/25 oversee [2] 157/13
F712 434/17 135/47 I 189/8 190/13 190/23 I 53/14 58/5 61/16 64/7) 157/11 162/6 166/18 I 157/19
435/25 149/14 12/6 I 19/5 192/4 192/21 I 66/2 76/19 83/8 84/18] 167/22 172/4 185/25 Ioverseeing [1] 4/1
22019 220/9 22118 I 192/22 193/4 194/7 _I 87/7 91/1 93/15 99/1 I 188/1 188/7 188/8 _I oversight [18] 34/17
245/17 201/11 201/15 201/25I 99/13 100/17 105/5 I 196/21 198/16 198/17I 51/15 51/24 53/3
opposed [1] 27/6 I 202/4 202/9 204/9 I 107/5 108/9 131/19 I 200/18 206/15 208/19) 62/23 64/3 64/9 64/12
opposite [2] 68/22 I 2068/7 206/19 208/11 I 133/13 137/22 156/12] 221/19 222/22 23/6 I 65/10 65/16 66/10
A pe 208/16 210/7 211/10 I 159/6 161/1 161/9 —_I 229/20 240/10 241/6 I 66/13 66/19 67/6 73/9
opposition [7] 33/17 I 211/20 212/14 212/21] 161/24 165/4 17016 II 2417 241/10 85/15 124/12 143/10
Fet3 50/11 S1/1g I 213/11 213/13 213/24] 171/10 181/15 182/12I outcome [7] 82/12 _Ioverspent [1] 9/19
81/20 162/5 167/7 I 213/24 214/16 214/16) 182/14 182/16 183/9 I 97/14 138/18 156/8 overstate [1] 191/3
option [6] 13/18 214/17 214/19 214/24I 183/24 184/2 188/12 I 191/14 205/2 220/5 Ioverstated [1] 154/7
tait1 69/11 88/25 I 217/16 218/6 218/11 I 188/16 193/3 197/2_Ioutcomes [2] 167/13 Ioverstepping [1]
2151 215/14 219/12 219/20 220/18I 198/13 198/15 198/21I 191/7 185/15,
options [6] 74/22 I 221/7 222/6 22218 I 207/16 208/9 211/16 loutcry [1] 222/18 overturn [2] 34/13
6 100/16 109/10 I 222/8 222/23 223/23 I 212/18 214/19 219/20I outline [1] 15/7 35/1
105/6 215/ 224/14 224/21 226/23I 229/12 235/1 236/3 {outlined [2] 110/19 Ioverturned [9] 6/9
or [230] 1/13 1/18 6/6] 27/3 227/11 227/14 I 236/8 236/19 236/19 I 221/10 36/5 36/18 38/15 39/9
73 10/9 11/14 12/47 I 228/5 228/23 230/8 I 238/17 239/22 240/17/ outlines [1] 67/23 I 49/19 54/6 82/24
13124 16/16 17/16 I 231/22 233/11 233/15] 242/1 242/5 243/10 outlining [1] 3/8 100/10
48/3 19/11 1916 233/17 234/13 235/5 I 243/10 245/23 outside [5] 91/9 overturning [2] 33/20]
21/12 22/11 22/19 I 235/22 236/5 236/14 Iothers [6] 67/8 68/7 I 124/22 235/2 238/16 I 82/23
22/23 25/19 26/1 236/14 236/18 237/23I 69/10 100/19 238/16 I 242/21 overturns [1] 38/5
26/11 26/13 26/14 I 238/10 238/24 239/25) 238/18 outsourcing [1] overview [5] 84/3
3713 27/18 28/4 28/23) 24015 240/6 240/14 otherwise [6] 51/11 I 68/19 92/11 123/10 144/3
28/24 28195 29/5 243/1 243/10 243/20 I 51/18 103/21 144/23 outstanding [1] 154/15
32/11 32/11 3/14 I 244/15 246/9 246/10 I 17/8 177/20 216/18 owe [1] 231/8
32/21 33/8 35/2 36/25) 246/22 ought [5] 81/17 over [50] 16/4 19/11 Iowed [1] 234/7
38/3 41/24 4216 45/21I0fal [5] 25/1 51/13 I 124/25 155/20 155/21] 20/15 21/4 41/5 60/23I Owen [2] 202/14
46/13 50/1 50/20 73/14 88/10 231/21 I 159/9 62/11 65/4 66/22 211/24
order [21] 17/6 29/14 I our [37] 2/20 12/20 I 70/10 84/9 92/1 92/17) own [20] 22/15 31/17
aa oe enim cary I 31/23 37/20 39/8 41/9I 36/4 49/16 58/20 I 94/16 94/23 105/8 I 39/1 42/7 53/10 56/2
Oe ere Capa? I 80/14 87/11 634 I 72/14 76/17 92/23 I 108/23 106/2 106/10 I 73/7 102/26 13017
eee et romrI 63/24 97/13 109/21 I 94/9 94/10 101/23 I 107/21 107/25 110/15) 130/18 143/18 147/16
72/7 72/8 72/12 72/15 110/16 116/18 138/21] 104/21 115/7 125/11 I 112/18 118/3 133/5 163/13 186/16 186/17)
145/13 149/16 171/19] 134/11 148/6 166/12 I 140/22 142/3 144/24 I 193/25 197/24 211/5
171/22 237/8 242/9 I 169/12 173/13 176/14I 151/16 168/11 178/15) 235/8 238/10
orderly [1] 210/2 186/23 194/6 198/4 I 178/24 190/1 194/1_Iowned [1] 69/14
ordinary [1] 121/23 I 201/23 205/17 207/7 I 194/25 199/16 203/2
organisation [38] 207/25 216/2 216/12 I 204/4 205/1 210/6
72/18 72/21 72/22
73/9 73/11 73/14
74/11 82/19 84/5 88/1
89/7 90/18 91/14 98/7,
(90) operates... - pace
INQ00001205
INQ00001205
Pp
pack [3] 106/19
157/9 196/18
package [1] 6/16
Pads [1] 179/19
page [84] 2/8 2/8
13/2 13/2 13/3 14/25
15/1 15/11 16/4 16/4
20/15 21/4 28/12 60/9
67/23 78/21 79/6
79/10 84/2 84/9 86/5
89/11 89/25 95/4
104/6 104/7 105/8
105/15 106/12 106/23)
116/22 127/12 127/13}
128/1 128/3 128/8
128/9 128/12 128/13
129/3 129/8 132/21
133/6 142/3 147/23
152/2 152/8 152/9
176/1 176/18 178/6
178/11 178/15 178/24}
183/15 189/18 190/1
190/1 190/9 191/15
193/24 194/1 194/25
199/16 204/4 209/20
209/21 213/1 213/2
213/8 215/21 215/21
215/22 216/4 216/25
217/13 218/5 218/22
218/22 218/23 219/24
222/25 223/14 232/18
page 1 [5] 15/11 79/6
191/15 216/25 218/5
page 11 [1] 95/4
page 12 [1] 147/23
page 13 [2] 60/9
105/15
page 14 [1] 79/10
page 17 [2] 178/6
178/11
page 2 [7] 14/25 15/1
16/4 28/12 84/2
132/21 190/9
page 23 [1] 106/12
page 25 [2] 213/1
213/2
Page 27 [1] 176/18
page 3 [6] 84/9 86/5
89/11 190/1 215/21
216/4
page 30 [2] 209/20
209/21
page 4 [4] 189/18
215/21 215/22 217/13
page 5 [3] 13/2 13/3
67/23
page 6 [2] 13/2 176/1
page 7 [1] 218/22
page 8 [6] 2/8 128/3
128/8 128/9 128/12
129/3
page 9 [7] 78/21
116/22 127/12 128/1
128/13 129/8 218/23
pages [4] 67/3 78/19
79/4 208/19
pages 167 [1] 67/3
paid [11] 5/23 10/16
11/6 19/10 19/11 99/7)
101/14 108/8 112/1
134/2 137/24
painful [1] 227/22
pair [1] 117/25
pan [1] 84/2
pandemic [1] 156/18
panic [1] 132/12
panned [1] 110/9
paper [12] 43/25
44/10 44/17 45/22
45/23 46/2 46/3 47/4
49/6 68/17 72/23
132/5
papers [2] 71/13
1/19
paragraph [43] 16/5
16/6 17/6 17/18 19/4
20/9 20/16 20/17
23/23 26/4 28/11 79/5
86/5 87/25 95/4 97/15
99/23 99/25 103/22
104/17 104/25 105/10)
105/14 132/21 134/21
140/3 141/8 141/20
147/23 147/24 171/6
176/2 176/18 180/23
182/5 192/16 198/17
199/4 203/3 207/1
209/21 209/21 213/1
paragraph 1 [2]
180/23 182/5
paragraph 10 [2]
86/5 132/21
paragraph 13 [1]
134/21
paragraph 14 [1]
176/2
paragraph 16 [1]
20/16
paragraph 19 [2]
23/23 26/4
paragraph 2 [1] 79/5
paragraph 36 [1]
141/8
paragraph 38 [1]
171/16
paragraph 39 [1]
15/4
paragraph 41 [2]
147/23 147/24
paragraph 44 [1]
105/14
paragraph 47 [1]
103/22
paragraph 5 [1]
104/17
paragraph 6 [6] 16/5
17/6 17/18 28/11
104/25 105/10
paragraph 66 [1]
213/1
Paragraph 72 [1]
176/18
paragraph 77 [2]
209/21 209/21
paragraph 9 [2] 19/4
20/9
paragraphs [3]
107/13 111/19 207/10
paramount [1]
104/21
parcel [3] 59/13
148/25 149/24
parents [1] 226/20
park [1] 28/18
Park's [1] 179/22
Parliament [15]
14/10 24/15 25/2
34/12 35/1 38/9 39/13
39/20 62/13 65/4
66/16 73/13 79/18
80/9 162/13
Parliamentary [6]
38/11 80/18 85/16
88/10 97/3 158/23
part [38] 4/14 4/21
12/20 23/21 27/22
35/9 44/9 44/22 46/8
49/7 49/16 50/2 50/14
54/8 54/12 59/4 59/13
63/17 65/19 66/21
76/18 118/25 129/21
129/22 130/25 148/25
149/4 149/24 158/5
166/9 180/4 182/11
212/16 212/16 212/19
213/5 232/22 237/24
Participants [4] 19/4
45/3 151/16 224/18
participate [2] 4/7
31/1
participating [1] 16/1
particular [28] 4/22
22/24 27/11 27/24
31/4 41/10 42/25
62/14 66/18 75/1 77/5
82/7 89/9 100/21
107/6 121/5 127/4
134/7 170/4 187/5
208/4 220/21 221/21
221/24 225/14 229/18
232/7 237/10
particularly [10] 7/7
11/21 23/14 71/21
72/10 95/18 107/8
195/22 206/11 224/9
particulars [1]
142/11
parties [5] 47/19
182/14 194/8 197/25
199/12
partly [4] 202/3
partner [2] 54/16
76/10
partners [3] 57/23
238/6 238/10
parts [3] 43/1 198/13
200/22
party [12] 35/4 35/7
35/17 36/2 74/19
81/19 139/22 179/19
183/25 189/5 193/3
201/3
Party's [1] 162/7
pass [3] 35/11 39/1
190/24
passage [6] 101/11
126/13 128/15 141/6
183/1 222/16
passages [3] 30/10
180/23 218/23
passed [3] 6/10 90/8
164/8
passing [6] 36/25
41/5 91/14 108/16
129/25 168/18
past [9] 5/5 5/9 10/12
32/23 33/9 40/4 62/20
179/3 202/6
patches [1] 184/12
Patrick [14] 70/7
70/25 71/1 71/4
162/16 162/18 224/19)
224/24 226/2 226/4
226/9 248/10 248/20
249/5
Patterson [38] 54/25
55/5 55/11 56/18
59/11 74/7 158/20
159/3 160/6 174/1
17413 174/7 174/8
185/16 187/1 187/13
208/7 225/9 226/5
226/22 231/14 231/18
232/15 233/12 234/14
234/25 236/10 240/20
241/7 242/8 242/12
244/15 244/25 245/1
245/13 245/19 246/22
249/1
Paul [4] 74/6 174/3
174I7 249/1
pause [10] 1/11 1/18
42/1 42/4 42/9 167/14
170/25 222/19 223/24)
229/21
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pay [5] 10/3 27/4
29/20 197/4 218/20
paying [4] 103/24
114/18 149/18 242/8
payment [7] 13/7
19/16 19/19 96/2 96/5)
100/23 106/4
payments [5] 32/20
95/23 100/9 160/16
160/19
payouts [1] 30/12
peak [1] 184/14
peers [1] 104/24
penny [1] 108/20
Pensions [1] 38/20
people [126] 8/5 8/15)
11/25 14/18 17/6
17/10 17/16 17/24
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20/7 20/10 22/1 22/14
22/22 23/8 23/11 25/5)
25/13 26/21 30/1 31/5
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33/18 33/22 34/4
34/16 34/23 35/21
35/25 36/4 36/8 36/17,
37/2 37/3 37/8 37/10
37/19 37/23 37/25
38/13 38/13 38/18
40/17 40/19 41/17
42/5 45/14 45/14
45/15 45/18 51/22
57/19 57/22 61/7
62/11 63/5 63/9 63/18
63/21 64/24 67/19
68/4 68/4 68/21 74/17
75/20 77/4 87/22
88/12 93/18 95/22
97/9 98/18 108/25
110/12 113/3 114/21
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132/12 135/19 139/1
139/8 147/7 147/12
148/14 150/10 150/21
151/5 151/12 154/8
154/20 155/6 159/5
166/4 166/7 166/13
166/18 167/23 170/8
170/10 172/16 197/5
198/16 201/16 219/20)
229/5 230/4 235/14
238/22 239/24 240/21
241/6 241/8 243/10
244/18
per [7] 160/13 178/14!
178/16 179/1 179/5
179/5 179/6
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perception [6] 9/2
62/3 69/23 103/20
112/25 113/22
perfect [2] 98/20
109/1
perfectly [2] 122/20
202/4
perform [1] 185/11
performance [4] 52/9)
142/10 184/2 184/9
performing [1] 184/9
performs [1] 185/10
perhaps [21] 4/5
(@1) pack - perhaps
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P piece [4] 72/7 72/21 I 26/12 26/20 27/25 154/9 154/9 154/12 I 69/11 69/20 76/5 77/2
perhaps... [20] 4/16 72/22 147/16 28/5 29/2 34/7 35/8 I 154/13 154/13 82/14 82/16 95/18
9/2 13/2 15/15 27/18 pieces [2] 104/10 37/19 41/4 48/15 50/2I political [4] 34/21 99/20 100/10 103/2
41/25 51/23 54/8 132/6 50/9 51/5 55/24 72/9 I 143/14 154/9 154/15 I 104/14 107/7 107/19
70/18 84/6 94/11 PIN [1] 179/19 84/5 85/23 87/13 politician [3] 45/24 I 125/9 125/20 138/12
place [32] 6/22 9/21 I 89/17 91/7 92/4 99/17I 103/18 114/4 138/20 144/20 162/2
149/15 150/6 156/17
162/9 162/9 180/18
214/7 227/14 234/15
period [10] 6/11 6/22
24/18 81/14 81/23
92/17 94/23 102/14
232/6 232/7
periodically [1] 66/16]
periods [1] 29/18
permanent [7]
101/23 107/12 134/23}
145/7 146/10 171/12
171/117
person [11] 98/7
116/10 131/21 138/18)
156/15 187/16 190/22)
190/23 209/6 209/11
235/11
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22/2 32/19 47/9 103/1
116/15 116/16 126/22)
163/13 196/13
personally [5] 12/12
75/16 206/4 229/3
240/15
perspective [13]
16/7 17/5 18/17 65/3
67/21 88/9 122/19
130/22 137/19 138/10)
162/6 170/3 197/17
persuaded [1] 236/8
pertains [1] 4/23
pertinent [1] 68/7
Peters [2] 125/12
125/12
petulant [3] 205/24
206/2 206/9
phase [8] 71/10
174/15 174/16 174/18)
174/22 184/25 205/23}
220/8
Phase 2 [3] 71/10
174/15 184/25
Phase 3 [1] 174/16
Phase 4 [1] 174/18
Phase 7 [2] 174/22
205/23
Phases [1] 174/19
Phases 5 [1] 174/19
phone [3] 117/23
118/7 128/22
phrase [2] 55/19
234/15
pick [4] 61/9 127/4
198/16 198/17
picked [1] 76/10
picking [1] 91/18
picture [1] 246/16
12/10 18/18 25/12
29/10 29/23 45/25
48/16 48/21 57/12
58/9 76/7 109/11
110/18 113/4 113/10
114/16 116/14 119/25)
137/16 144/19 149/17)
153/1 153/18 154/19
158/4 165/4 169/6
233/18 234/13 241/22
placed [4] 51/21
134/25 201/17 210/14!
places [2] 16/24
236/13
plan [5] 11/16 50/10
50/11 85/13 222/4
planning [2] 39/24
39/25
platform [1] 223/19
play [8] 8/2 62/14
62/19 64/9 146/8
180/13 231/20 236/15)
played [1] 49/11
playground [1] 206/3
playing [1] 62/18
please [82] 1/22 2/7
3/7 3/7 12/23 14/25
15/11 16/4 20/15 21/4)
25/24 25/24 28/11
45/6 46/13 78/8 78/13
78/17 83/15 84/2 84/3
84/9 86/3 89/10 89/11
98/24 104/7 106/11
106/18 115/10 115/22)
116/22 118/5 127/12
128/12 132/20 136/8
140/1 141/13 147/22
151/17 151/21 173/18)
174/6 174/12 176/1
178/6 178/16 180/19
180/20 183/12 183/15)
188/20 188/21 189/18)
190/1 190/9 191/15
191/18 192/14 194/1
194/25 195/11 199/16)
204/4 209/20 213/8
215/20 215/21 215/25
216/8 216/17 216/19
217/13 218/18 218/18
219/24 222/11 222/17
222/25 224/23 232/19
pleased [1] 74/14
pm [8] 78/5 115/10
115/14 115/16 173/20)
173/22 225/23 247/2
pocket [1] 159/12
point [64] 21/24
21/25 22/4 26/10
102/17 106/1 107/16
107/17 110/18 111/15
113/1 116/24 117/8
135/13 136/22 137/18
137/24 142/15 152/14.
153/14 155/9 157/1
157/10 157/11 170/16
173/14 180/15 180/17:
189/16 197/14 198/6
198/24 199/14 204/10
231/3 231/18 234/24
235/1 235/4 237/2
237/12 243/1
points [11] 75/15
85/11 87/1 87/1 88/16
142/11 142/14 177/15
181/11 183/8 233/16
POL [5] 60/11 60/16
133/14 152/18 157/19
POL's [2] 133/16
139/23
POL00448771 [1]
60/7
polarity [1] 49/3
police [49] 183/14
189/21 189/24 190/4
190/7 190/12 190/25
191/2 191/4 191/8
191/12 191/23 192/1
192/6 192/25 193/3
194/13 195/18 196/16
196/19 197/12 197/17
198/1 198/22 199/21
203/4 203/6 203/9
203/14 203/16 203/22
203/23 204/2 206/12
206/18 206/22 206/23
207/5 207/9 207/11
207/20 208/12 208/17
208/21 208/24 209/6
209/10 234/10 234/10
police's [3] 194/13
194/16 203/25
policy [54] 10/17
14/8 17/5 21/7 21/25
22/22 24/5 27/7 27/13
72/2 76/16 76/19
77/14 89/13 89/16
89/17 89/18 89/19
89/21 89/23 90/1 90/2
90/5 90/6 90/9 90/11
91/3 91/4 91/8 91/12
91/18 91/20 91/21
93/9 93/11 93/19
93/22 93/24 94/4 94/6
94/10 94/14 94/20
94/21 94/22 124/24
140/25 152/17 152/21
politicians [4] 90/14
90/17 90/18 91/14
politicians’ [1] 93/4
politics [2] 10/13
49/12
POLSAP [2] 182/12
189/3
ponder [1] 232/5
poor [2] 133/15
133/16
portfolio [3] 5/13
86/13 169/16
posed [2] 186/21
208/17
position [43] 6/24
10/12 17/1 20/1 22/3
22/20 23/6 23/12 24/9
28/19 29/7 30/24 31/5
32/1 35/16 36/3 36/16
37/19 38/7 38/21
38/24 39/7 41/22 48/8
51/7 55/11 57/9 60/25
61/5 63/8 80/18 84/22
116/7 117/24 130/17
139/20 177/3 178/4
209/15 210/8 215/6
230/3 235/16
positive [3] 70/2
159/7 239/13
positively [1] 159/8
possibility [1] 110/21
possible [21] 6/17
12/6 14/19 17/1 17/7
22/14 29/23 32/9
46/24 58/16 74/22
75/13 98/10 99/22
126/6 166/19 209/24
211/18 212/10 212/22
214/9
possibly [4] 11/14
50/25 199/22 225/9
post [339]
postal [7] 3/25 11/1
30/14 34/10 72/11
77/8 84/13
postmaster [14]
47/23 63/1 67/25
124/11 124/13 124/14)
124/17 125/6 204/11
214/17 214/24 216/22
217/9 235/21
postmasters [56]
7/24 8/8 13/7 13/16
15/25 21/9 21/17
23/25 24/3 40/24
44/19 47/15 47/20
48/1 61/13 62/23
62/25 63/9 63/22
163/23 165/5 191/7
192/19 192/21 193/14)
194/4 194/22 195/2
195/6 195/14 204/18
205/3 205/15 210/23
213/11 232/20 232/24
postmasters' [1]
100/1
posturing [2] 109/21
109/23
pot [1] 221/23
potential [22] 12/16
15/8 19/20 20/18 21/2)
30/7 34/11 34/12 41/4
52/18 53/3 63/16
64/14 76/22 101/6
190/20 192/11 194/11
204/21 209/25 214/18
214/19
potentially [7] 49/24
76/15 76/20 191/7
211/17 216/21 229/9
pouch [2] 188/11
188/12
pound [1] 161/3
power [7] 65/13
65/21 66/6 69/21 77/1
109/19 134/17
powerful [1] 171/14
PowerPoint [1] 92/12!
powers [2] 193/5
225/7
practical [3] 64/8
72/17 231/23
practice [4] 16/21
25/9 71/15 112/1
practised [1] 2/24
pre [3] 116/1 116/4
145/18
pre-dated [2] 116/1
116/4
pre-Internet [1]
145/18
precedent [2] 35/23
35/24
precedents [1] 34/22
preceding [1] 6/3
precisely [2] 74/13
95/15
preclude [1] 161/18
predecessor [2] 2/20
153/9
predecessors [3]
42/15 152/16 153/16
predecessors’ [1]
13/12
prefer [2] 42/6
131/20
(2) perhaps... - prefer
INQ00001205
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P 156/25 14 procurement [1] proposition [2] 29/13 Provisions 27/1
Draidice!2) 39/5. IPrioritisation provisions
prejudice (21325 I 316 produce [6] 64/5 _I propositions [1] 210/10 210/12
preliminary [1] 58/21]Prioritise [2] 103/23 I 185/2 1865/6 185/23 I 17/5 public [53] 3/16 8/9
Temise [i] 2186/7 I 132/7 201/21 232/8 prosecuted [4] 38/19I 16/7 17/5 22/22 23/15
ovemices [1] 57/22 IPriority [4] 5/3.9/4 Iproduced [5] 72/21 I 39/11 40/21 226/20 I 40/11 40/25 42/17
ae naration [ay 31/16] 46/15 113/11 174/9 185/12 192/8 I prosecuting [1] 44/6 50/7 66/25 69/11
a eeoared To] $022 [Private [11] 42/18 I 20014 191/9 72/4 75/25 76/1 76/16
eth 64/18 55/6 80/6 106/15 106/17 Iproduces [3] 187/17 Iprosecution [3] 76/19 77/12 7/13
705/22 1086/9 133/2 I 107/2 134/21 145/4 I 188/6 188/7 202/23 205/15 213/25) 90/22 104/22 112/25
147/12 160/7 146/16 147/11 157/4 I producing [1] 246/23I prosecutions [8] 114/5 121/22 125/2
prerequisite [1] 170/41 product [1] 187/21 I 39/17 194/1 194/7 I 133/15 135/18 146/25
pela privilege [1] 158/23 I professional [1] 198/22 204/4 208/5 I 147/9 147/13 148/7
prescriptive [1] 64/2 [Proactively [1] 160/3 I 185/9 213/21 218/11 148/12 151/1 152/16
present [2] 12/5 (Probably [8] 32/23 [profit [3] 69/15 146/6 I prosecutorial [2] 152/23 153/16 154/18
MOTI 44/17 119/24 120/5 I 146/6 193/4 202/18 154/20 155/5 156/10
presentation [1] 130/17 132/11 151/24I profound [1] 65/8 I prosecutors [1] 157/2 181/10 187/20
tad 152/10 programme [5] 191/12 191/9 222/14 222/18
presented [3] 24/17 [Problem [20] 34/18 I 113/21 142/23 154/2 I prosecutory [1] 222/19 222/20 222/23
186/10 19118 53/17 61/19 98/16 I 172/1 172/4 176/10 223/2 223/15 223/25
109/13 109/17 120/15I progress [7] 30/22 Iprospect [1] 219/7 I publication [3] 6/13
preserved [1] 75/13 I 195/25 129/21 129/22I 51/1 54/21 60/23 _Iprotections [2] 34/17I 6/13 54/2
preserving [1] 75/17
° 1831/1 131/21 137/15 I 75/24 190/18 203/15 I 35/18 publish [1] 44/2
President [2] 81/7 I 437/20 137/23 144/20Iprogress' [1] 30/17 Iprove [1] 119/19 I published [4] 54/4
pressure [2] 16/24 180/2 196/22 200/16 I progressing [2] proven [1] 139/1 118/19 175/8 175/8
ress 201/2 44/12 44/14 provide [45] 12/18 Ipurely [1] 188/25
presumably [3] problematic [1] project [3] 143/5 I 15/25 16/18 17/24 _I purporting [2]
Oat apa de tsio I 116/9 143/19 144/13 30/1 36/7 43/2 44/25 I 196/11 196/12
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reventa EY t4ete I 13015 168/23 168/24 I projects [2] 142/19 I 83/23 107/20 107/24 I 43/18 47/24 60/10
croviows aA} ai I 168/25 170/17 14/2 133/23 146/13 150/7 I 60/14 67/13 67/22
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SAIS SOI1O aol I 33/19 37/9 43/23 I promise [3] 56/6 I 159/14 160/11 161/15] 140/10 150/18 165/13
ano aomser, I 52l2452/2453/1 I 69/3 222/15 161/15 170/22 189/1 I 200/12 205/10 213/12
sig ioso/21 I 83/1266/3 68/20 _I promised [2] 30/16 I 190/21 192/19 193/19I 213/16 217/22 219/12
Bole O63 tapvag I 8/25 102/20 103/18 I 103/3 196/7 196/10 197/23 I purposes [2] 152/11
143/25 156/2 176/9 I 115/3 131/14 149/22 I prompt [2] 5/6 5/14 I 200/5 202/20 202/22 I 186/19
203/28 216/1 217/11 I 157/25 172/21 179/14I prompted [1] 236/1 I 203/22 213/4 213/10 I pursuance [1] 99/6
220/22 180/15 245/23 promptly [1] 204/14 I 223/12 223/22 236/9 Ipursue [5] 16/10
previously [11] 9/17 [Procedure [1] 35/11 Iproper [5] 99/21 236/18 239/15 240/8 I 101/10 193/14 232/24]
38/4 136/44 136/19 [Procedures [1] 16/1] 133/17 156/8 199/23 I 241/8 235/14
137/6 137/13 174/8 [Proceed [1] 152/22 I 202/1 provided [25] 8/5 _ I pursued [2] 39/19
175/10 183/6 199/9 IProceeding [1] 24/13I properly [12] 29/10 I 21/6 21/22 47/15 194/7
209/10 proceedings [4] 57/12 58/1 129/17 I 47/1865/14 77/2 _Ipursuing [1] 235/17
price [2] 121/17 177/7 195/14 196/4 I 138/9 138/13 138/16 I 78/15 83/5 85/25 _I pursuit [2] 193/11
161/24 200/2 160/15 160/20 172/5 I 143/7 145/21 17/6 I 232/19
process [34] 6/20 _I 179/25 180/16 1777 177/14 177/19 I pushed [4] 17/16
Primarily [1] 154/7
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11/12 14/1 16/9 16/10] property [1] 143/17 I 179/18 179/20 180/3 I put [30] 6/15 6/22
17/8 17/20 23/16 25/8I proportion [1] 19/8 I 185/21 208/22 208/25) 9/20 15/9 17/1 18/18
isa/16 1673 25/12 28/9 29/1 33/21Iproposal [19] 16/22 I 215/1 223/10 231/15 I 20/7 31/3 39/23 40/2
principal [1] 93/23 I 34/7 36/10 38/23 44/9] 18/3 59/5 59/13 67/5 Iprovider [3] 203/7 I 45/23 55/6 68/25
tincipally [1] 175/12) 503 97/10 101/4 67/10 67/19 67/23 I 222/14 223/1 89/22 92/15 98/5
veincible 12) 1393 I 103/9.111/12 124/20 I 68/14 69/1 69/10 I provides [6] 19/13 I 110/13 114/16 126/68
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principles [3] 14/8 I 148/25 184/16 206/22] 105/11 107/22 110/19) 202/25 23515 162/7 176/11 181/17
114/20 166/10 216/8 216/13 216/23 I 111/13 155/16 providing [19] 8/15 I 213/13 221/16 222/1
printout [2] 3/5 3/8 I 217/10 219/14 proposals [2] 245/9 I 13/19 41/18 68/23 I 237/7 244/6
rior [3] 44/10 56/3. [Processed [1] 217/7 I 245/15 68/24 76/1377/8 I puts [1] 188/11
vets processes [15] 47/14I propose [3] 5/14 149/23 159/2 162/1 I putting [5] 31/25
priorities [14] 46/11 I 47/18 47/22 10018 I 42/4 70/8 17219 194/14 196/5 I 69/1 69/7 200/6
140/7 14019 140/22 I 131/9 133/18 133/21 Iproposed [3] 66/12 I 215/3 2214/7 238/15 I 210/21
140103 141/18 141/29] 137/15 1386/6 149/2 I 67/24 68/11 230/14 239/19 241/19)
141/23 185/28 156/18I 18/1 166/17 183/25 I proposing [2] 55/15 Iprovision [4] 96/6 I& __
185/8 204/7 221/15 180/25 191/10 213/6 Iquadrupled [1]
(93) prejudice - quadrupled
INQ00001205
INQ00001205
Q 244/11 244/12 244/12) 180/23 182/19 182/24) 54/7 100/14 109/2 7/2 7/4 719 7/9 7/18
quieten [1] 115/19 I 192/13 193/23 199/3 I 150/20 8/18 8/22 9/18 9/20
quadrupled... [1]
121/18
qualified [1] 187/11
quality [1] 47/25
quantum [2] 5/23
18/1
quashed [3] 71/6
162/20 226/11
queries [2] 47/23
241/9
question [44] 22/25
27/5 40/12 41/2 45/20)
49/9 51/6 51/20 51/21
52/5 52/17 60/21
61/21 62/6 66/10 71/9
71/16 75/18 97/22
108/4 112/25 112/25
145/15 149/20 164/1
164/22 171/4 173/2
185/4 186/21 187/24
193/21 195/8 196/9
202/11 202/18 212/8
212/23 218/7 225/14
243/18 244/19 245/11
246/1
Questioned [26] 1/20
45/9 59/21 71/1 75/3
78/10 151/19 162/16
168/12 171/3 174/4
226/4 232/14 248/4
248/6 248/8 248/10
248/12 248/16 248/18
248/20 248/22 248/24
249/3 249/5 249/7
questions [55] 26/1
40/10 41/25 44/16
45/3 45/4 51/19 55/5
57/2 58/4 58/23 59/20
59/25 62/1 62/5 64/23,
65/8 65/15 70/7 70/11
73/14 73/15 75/2
76/16 78/12 97/25
115/20 151/13 154/10)
157/5 158/22 159/4
159/8 162/23 163/1
163/16 168/7 189/14
198/5 198/18 203/4
203/8 208/16 208/16
208/19 214/13 220/22
224/17 224/19 226/9
231/17 238/1 238/3
239/16 242/25
quicker [2] 32/14
35/12
quickly [19] 14/18
16/25 98/10 98/18
99/7 102/13 109/1
113/9 138/10 138/11
138/14 138/20 166/19)
182/20 192/14 193/21
218/13 218/13 218/14
quiet [4] 244/10
quietly [2] 1/15 1/17
quite [35] 5/17 12/17
12/17 23/12 26/25
27/11 47/2 50/1 56/17,
63/23 65/8 72/13 73/5
75/10 87/16 90/19
93/6 93/18 94/6 95/10
109/11 115/5 125/1
143/17 146/23 147/14)
148/21 161/14 166/8
207/21 211/12 224/9
227/21 234/2 240/19
quotes [1] 219/24
R
racism [1] 135/6
radical [1] 101/2
radically [1] 100/8
Railton [11] 49/3
139/23 147/5 155/11
155/20 155/25 157/8
157/12 157/17 170/22)
211/2
raise [2] 72/12
226/12
raised [10] 13/9 61/9
73/23 101/6 113/16
194/10 203/4 205/21
207/3 227/15
raising [1] 110/21
range [8] 8/7 9/1
11/20 12/1 58/22 65/2)
159/5 194/21
rapidly [1] 99/22
rarely [1] 88/25
rather [36] 30/8
40/17 48/8 53/6 53/21
56/23 63/12 69/14
90/14 91/8 92/5 96/15
97/2 97/6 98/19
108/14 108/19 112/9
131/11 134/17 138/19)
138/21 147/5 150/6
151/4 156/10 162/9
176/12 181/4 191/18
205/24 214/5 245/19
245/21 245/25 246/4
rational [1] 148/21
rationale [2] 77/14
243/6
RBS [1] 80/2
reach [2] 122/4 162/6
reached [6] 35/17
48/3 56/4 217/19
241/7 241/10
read [34] 16/6 19/4
30/9 60/1 92/18
101/11 105/16 105/19)
120/11 130/4 133/8
145/2 157/11 168/22
169/2 169/3 169/5
169/8 171/9 178/9
201/15 205/8 206/5
218/23 222/16 232/20
232/21 234/17
Read's [1] 170/23
readily [1] 72/13
reading [4] 47/16
97/2 177/10 217/23
readout [1] 13/5
reads [2] 168/23
198/16
ready [2] 46/9 144/22:
real [6] 3/4 9/21
31/14 92/17 110/5
161/5
realise [2] 51/23
232/6
realised [1] 24/6
realises [1] 28/24
realistic [1] 42/14
reality [2] 245/1
245/4
really [32] 8/7 22/5
31/13 34/18 35/3
36/20 43/5 43/10 47/2
58/14 59/10 71/16
77/3 92/9 94/14 94/22
94/24 108/8 124/18
137/2 153/11 155/21
158/21 159/13 164/20:
164/23 190/18 206/4
206/4 206/11 206/14
230/19
reason [8] 31/10
95/13 99/16 139/11
158/5 179/7 214/2
241/10
reasonable [7] 6/17
20/13 21/9 27/25 29/6
34/15 62/6
reasonably [1] 26/22
reasons [9] 122/18
128/7 147/4 160/11
160/17 194/3 196/23
200/4 243/22
reassurance [1]
44/21
reassure [2] 33/6
198/1
reassures [1] 193/24
Rebekah [3] 163/10
227/1 231/3
Recaldin [1] 58/8
recall [18] 15/13
39/12 82/20 87/9 96/9
96/9 102/12 110/20
137/10 142/24 142/25
155/24 159/21 160/13
164/10 164/15 177/25
241/3
receive [12] 7/4 7/24
18/2 20/11 20/20
20/24 30/12 37/17
received [17] 9/6
12/15 13/6 15/16 21/1
27/13 37/4 55/16
61/25 81/24 116/21
133/1 194/18 203/8
217/10 218/20 229/23
receiving [3] 16/20
36/6 37/16
recent [7] 152/15
152/24 153/15 154/17)
162/4 216/6 222/12
recently [8] 15/15
46/25 65/7 73/4 73/5
81/19 133/18 223/5
receptive [1] 111/20
reciprocity [1] 41/16
reckons [1] 234/7
recognise [8] 22/17
66/7 66/8 75/21
100/24 124/24 132/8
22715
recognises [1] 62/20
recognition [1] 63/20
recommend [5]
16/12 16/15 24/6
28/14 131/9
recommendation [8]
15/7 16/2 28/7 52/11
72/5 117/5 135/3
135/24
recommendations
[3] 12/21 13/10 15/5
recommended [3]
103/12 116/25 134/14)
recompense [2] 27/6
238/16
recompensed [1]
26/12
record [2] 81/17
134/19
recorded [4] 119/5
119/11 119/21 120/2
recording [5] 47/23
118/5 119/19 119/23
120/10
recording/resolving
[1] 47/23
records [8] 36/15
36/24 37/10 37/13
84/11 183/7 199/9
210/7
recourse [1] 240/17
recover [2] 204/17
204/22
recoveries [1]
204/20
recovery [2] 204/17
237/22
recruiting [1] 145/8
red [1] 132/8
redress [102] 4/23
5/5 5/6 5/14 5/18 6/14
9/23 10/1 10/21 11/5
11/11 11/13 12/19
13/9 14/18 14/21
15/25 17/7 17/11
17/21 17/25 18/1
18/17 18/23 22/11
22/13 23/2 23/9 25/23
27/15 29/12 29/15
29/17 29/20 30/1 31/6
31/24 32/8 32/15
32/20 33/2 34/6 36/6
36/19 37/3 40/7 49/19
49/23 50/5 50/20 54/2
54/6 54/13 55/7 55/7
59/7 61/24 61/24 62/4,
62/17 68/23 74/22
75/24 82/14 95/2
95/12 95/21 96/6
97/18 97/20 164/1
164/12 164/22 175/15)
193/18 193/20 195/7
213/24 214/25 215/4
216/22 217/4 217/6
217/9 218/11 218/17
219/22 220/14 222/5
228/5 238/18 240/25
241/17
reduce [2] 19/17
148/7
reduced [1] 32/20
reduces [1] 19/19
reducing [1] 142/21
Rees [1] 153/9
refer [5] 134/20
136/4 191/18 192/25
195/25
reference [15] 2/15
15/17 17/18 25/1
47/12 47/17 48/4
48/22 101/22 106/11
106/19 135/2 151/23
151/25 193/8
referenced [5] 22/24
39/3 46/4 86/14
112/22
references [1] 83/6
referencing [1]
102/17
referred [8] 134/20
137/8 153/14 165/24
199/4 203/6 217/8
234/25
referring [8] 73/8
84/19 84/20 90/4
106/3 139/14 204/21
214/10
refers [3] 87/25
116/24 218/24
reflect [3] 84/22
176/9 221/16
reflecting [2] 186/3
188/1
(94) quadrupled... - reflecting
INQ00001205
INQ00001205
R 63/13 64/6 64/11 85/12 135/4 194/5 199/2 216/2 3/6 3/9 3/13 60/14
reflection [1] 73/1 67/11 72/10 77/5 rep [1] 94/9 216/13 216/18 216/21] 66/19 85/8 85/19 86/2
84/10 87/6 122/6 repeat [2] 25/15 216/24 217/21 86/15 154/4 210/14
reflections [1]
180/18
reflects [3] 133/7
134/22 189/6
reform [1] 151/1
reforms [1] 167/11
refresh [2] 71/23
147/3
refusal [3] 26/19
105/25 110/25
refused [1] 38/2
refusing [1] 216/15
regard [12] 4/19
18/12 22/15 41/17
42/3 45/1 52/16 58/18
61/1 104/21 123/18
210/6
regarding [8] 51/9
104/12 132/22 143/7
143/21 153/19 203/4
203/23
regards [1] 45/17
region [1] 175/20
registering [1] 75/25
regret [2] 76/5 77/12
regular [1] 13/6
regularly [3] 37/13
178/21 228/13
regulation [3] 150/12
150/13 150/15
regulations [3]
114/16 150/20 166/16)
regulators [1] 140/25)
regulatory [1] 193/4
reimburse [1] 21/8
reimbursed [1] 21/14]
reject [5] 13/16 16/13}
28/14 29/3 245/13
rejected [3] 28/22
29/3 38/3
rejection [2] 105/10
106/7
relate [1] 194/5
related [5] 47/22
174/14 174/16 213/6
214/15
relates [7] 39/22
174/18 174/19 174/21
180/22 189/20 218/10)
relating [5] 4/2 11/1
192/9 193/7 205/11
relation [21] 14/23
20/11 22/4 23/13 26/3,
37/25 52/13 52/20
55/17 60/15 60/19
68/23 71/24 73/6
100/14 104/19 133/3
193/11 193/19 210/4
215/3
relationship [16]
34/9 41/14 48/1 60/17,
122/9 122/13 207/22
relationships [1]
123/1
relative [2] 20/4 33/9
relatively [4] 23/5
37/1 37/6 71/17
relevant [5] 81/23
191/10 200/3 214/20
232/21
relevantly [1] 81/10
reliability [14] 184/6
191/5 191/13 192/7
196/3 196/14 198/2
200/3 200/7 200/18
201/5 201/21 203/24
211/19
reliable [5] 185/5
185/23 186/19 187/18)
188/9
reliance [1] 195/1
reliant [1] 199/12
relied [2] 34/3 177/9
relies [2] 188/6 195/4
relieved [1] 139/20
reluctant [1] 160/15
rely [9] 68/3 179/25
180/17 189/15 194/17)
234/1 234/4 235/6
235/12
relying [4] 193/16
233/3 233/20 234/17
remain [2] 54/12
61/19
remainder [1] 51/12
remained [1] 80/15
remaining [1] 55/23
remains [2] 16/9
67/22
remediating [1]
195/3
Remediation [7]
215/22 216/11 217/15
217/16 217/17 217/20
217/20
remember [16] 91/4
95/19 97/21 97/23
102/15 111/16 117/8
117/12 130/13 139/8
140/18 153/23 156/3
156/4 159/17 164/7
reminding [1] 244/22
remit [2] 96/11 156/5
remote [1] 183/10
removal [1] 210/9
remove [4] 1/14
134/18 135/3 149/21
removed [1] 61/14
removing [2] 138/3
138/5
remuneration [6]
7/23 8/8 63/21 76/6
37/18
repeated [1] 130/19
repeatedly [1] 133/10)
repeating [1] 188/19
repercussions [1]
138/8
repercussive [2]
101/6 105/2
repetition [1] 40/4
replaced [1] 201/1
replacement [3]
41/10 56/25 144/22
replied [1] 228/19
reply [5] 104/4 104/5
104/8 105/20 229/22
report [22] 6/13 52/3
53/10 54/3 54/21 60/6
60/7 66/16 72/21
160/8 178/5 178/7
178/9 179/9 192/10
201/4 201/9 201/11
201/18 218/24 231/22
232/8
reported [4] 60/8
178/17 188/14 194/12
reporting [4] 66/13
131/13 185/25 204/13:
reports [1] 243/2
represent [4] 45/10
45/14 58/11 74/4
representation [4]
24/1 93/7 94/17
239/10
representative [6]
67/25 68/2 89/14 93/8
94/3 94/7
representatives [4]
68/1 226/19 239/10
240/21
representing [2]
189/8 240/21
represents [1] 187/7
Reputational [1]
165/3
request [23] 24/12
104/18 131/25 157/18
195/20 195/21 202/25
208/2 209/10 209/25
211/23 211/25 211/25
212/2 214/15 215/25
216/1 216/6 216/8
216/15 217/14 217/23
227/18
requested [6] 114/1
203/23 213/5 213/20
217/2 217/5
requester [1] 217/15
requesting [2]
195/12 217/21
requests [12] 117/19
143/22 164/16 194/2
require [5] 8/10
11/25 185/11 196/15
197/13
required [14] 10/1
43/8 61/4 67/1 79/9
82/14 97/13 133/22
186/6 186/24 188/2
204/7 212/22 236/24
requirements [7]
98/3 109/10 150/1
182/1 187/23 212/4
212/7
requires [2] 120/13
147/16
requiring [1] 144/13
rescued [1] 75/7
research [2] 72/22
91/5
Reserve [3] 9/19
10/15 10/18
resign [3] 134/17
135/17 135/25
resilience [1] 142/6
resistance [4] 105/17I
105/24 106/7 111/1
resolution [1] 220/4
resolve [4] 53/13
109/4 115/3 137/21
resolved [1] 53/13
resolving [5] 19/20
47/23 62/17 64/14
194/23
respect [31] 4/1
12/13 15/9 16/24 20/1
21/5 32/10 32/11 36/8
50/8 54/12 63/14
167/19 167/20 174/24)
175/14 177/4 178/12
180/18 182/6 194/19
196/14 198/1 200/10
200/17 210/20 210/22
211/7 215/6 215/19
233/2
respectful [1] 188/22
respectively [1]
136/13
respects [1] 187/7
respond [2] 7/17
49/24
responded [1] 179/2
responding [1] 68/14
response [19] 6/1
102/3 111/10 190/2
191/16 191/25 193/23)
194/10 195/9 202/14
205/5 205/6 205/25
216/3 216/4 216/10
216/19 217/25 227/17
responses [3] 73/13
167/17 178/8
responsibilities [12]
210/16
responsibility [20]
3/11 3/14 4/1 4/11 5/7,
68/20 88/18 88/22
89/19 90/2 90/13 92/4,
93/3 93/10 93/23
96/17 104/22 109/15
166/23 169/17
responsible [5] 4/12
55/19 91/13 91/22
121/24
responsiveness [1]
8/15
rest [3] 4/18 10/25
189/12
restating [3] 87/4
87/9 87/23
rested [1] 90/14
restorative [9] 58/5
159/4 161/5 164/1
164/22 228/5 240/25
245/9 245/15
restore [2] 59/15
63/5
restraints [1] 56/19
restricted [1] 146/23
resubmit [1] 216/8
result [17] 23/1 25/10]
25/17 25/20 38/4 74/5)
109/21 145/6 152/17
156/11 156/12 181/9
203/13 213/12 226/20
227/13 245/7
resulted [2] 74/16
176/23
resulting [1] 191/14
resume [6] 70/17
115/9 224/4 224/6
225/18 246/21
retail [2] 80/4 205/16
retained [4] 85/10
88/18 88/21 199/13
retaining [1] 67/13
retire [1] 77/9
retired [1] 181/17
retrieved [1] 119/25
return [11] 13/18
16/14 28/15 30/6
50/22 51/2 51/3 51/18,
165/16 184/4 224/21
returned [1] 216/14
revert [2] 61/18
229/23
reverting [1] 215/9
review [14] 32/24
33/21 40/1 52/10
52/18 61/10 72/19
98/2 131/8 148/21
156/14 157/13 157/19)
172/10
reviewed [2] 15/12
(95) reflection - reviewed
INQ00001205
1NQ00001205
R risk [17] 16/10 17/2 I 117/14 153/25 169/5 Isay [121] 4/34/10 I 233/7 239/7
a) 20/00 I 17/16 17/21 19/7 Irushing [4] 92/14 _I 5/16 6/4 7/6 7/13 8/25I scale [6] 7/13 7/24
eviews i ty] 20/20 19/17 23124 32/24 IS 98 14/7 17/13 18/18 I 23/19 75/19 87/11
16/2 101/6 105/2105/3 IS 22/19 23/13 27/7 176/25
revised [1] 14/1 108/18 148/2 181/8Isack [2] 137/5 27/12 29/4 31/11 scandal [31] 4/24
revolving [4] 159/11 I 181/13 181/14 181/23] 138/22 31/18 33/3 34/24 35/8I 7/13 7/25 30/12 31/6
15416 197/25 169/25 ItiSk-averse [1] 148/2Isacking [3] 130/10 I 35/19 35/21 37/12 I 45/12 55/4 57/18 58/7
reworked [1] 152/11 Itisked [1] 103/24 135/16 138/14 38/25 40/25 41/21 I 67/14 67/17 68/8 74/6}
Reynolds [19] 1/5 /Fisks [2] 22/17 safeguard [1] 25/14 I 42/21 43/4 46/9 49/10] 77/5 82/8 82/19 96/7
119 1/23 36/6 26/20 I 180/25 safeguards [2] 25/11I 49/16 53/12 53/23 I 99/20 100/1 134/4
28/8 45/10 49/4 50/22\isky [1] 182/3 29/23 56/23 57/15 60/21 I 158/25 159/6 163/7
52/7 52/21 58/18 RLIT0000276 [1] Saffron [1] 80/13 60/24 63/8 64/16 65/2I 219/6 222/21 227/10
5OM8 50/25 75/4 218/18 said [85] 20/11 27/17I 70/18 71/24 72/9 73/3I 230/19 238/4 238/11
777 172/20 221/2 I RLIT0000349 [1] 3/7 30/15 30/21 32/16 73/10 75/19 76/4 77/6I 238/13 244/9
48/2 RLIT0000413 [2] 33/12 40/5 46/25 47/1I 86/6 89/23 90/8 90/14I scenario [3] 37/15
Richard [1] 126/8 I 25/24 30/7 55/8 56/4 59/10 60/2 I 95/4 97/15 99/18 108/13 108/25
right [132] 1/14 1/17 RLIT0000433 [1] 61/1 73/13 86/21 99/25 103/22 105/16 Iscenes [1] 113/5
oe b)99-11/24 15/14] 222/11 91/11 93/3 93/6 93/6 I 106/9 112/6 117/6 I scheme [48] 6/9 6/11
45/14 17/13 24/22 [ead [2] 127/5 231/4 I 95/23 101/24 103/12 I 120/18 1241/7 123/23 I 6/12 6/15 13/14 13/14]
26/14 28/18 30/1 robotic [1] 112/9 110/25 110/25 116/8 I 124/19 125/18 126/12I 13/15 16/1 16/19 18/4
33/15 35/22 37/23 Irole [22] 4/14 8/2 118/12 119/17 119/18] 127/17 128/4 129/6 I 19/15 19/22 20/21
41/20 45/7 47/7 52/1 I 54/24 58/3 62/14 123/15 123/19 124/11] 129/8 129/19 132/23 I 20/23 21/6 21/8 24/2
57/3 58/19 61/21 64/1I 02/18 64/9 68/5 82/8 I 12/9 126/3 129/11 I 141/13 146/9 147/25 I 25/9 25/16 25/21 26/8
68/25 73/2 75/9 77/23) 83/14 86/1 91/20 129/20 130/12 131/18] 151/2 151/5 157/23 I 26/10 30/8 30/9 31/15
78/1 79/7 79/18 79/20I 90/14 134/15 140/5 I 134/22 136/9 137/13 I 159/13 167/3 171/13 I 32/11 37/4 37/6 37/7
79/24 a0/4 B0/7 80/11] 147/19 153/12 190/23] 139/18 139/18 141/5 I 176/3 185/9 186/14 I 38/5 49/19 49/20 54/5}
80/16 81/1 81/21 202/18 219/6 221/12 I 144/6 147/25 159/7 I 187/9 188/8 188/16 I 54/6 54/8 72/3 82/24
81/22 82/1 83/3 83/11) 230/18 159/8 165/17 165/22 I 188/17 192/17 193/1 I 82/25 83/1 100/23
84/1 84/17 95/5 97/13) Oles [2] 60/14 83/8. I 170/16 175/10 176/18) 193/12 193/18 195/11) 1041/2 103/3 104/20
1041/2 101/16 102/6 ITolling [1] 143/11 179/2 182/24 187/4 I 195/16 196/1 199/10 I 104/24 164/12 222/9
4103/1 103/4 103/5 [rollout [1] 144/8 196/23 206/6 211/19 I 202/20 205/7 207/4 I 228/5 238/17
4103/6 103/14 103/15 \feom [6] 1/6 42/7 I 214/13 217/13 219/9 I 209/21 210/24 211/7 Ischemes [27] 6/22
403/16 103/19 103/20) 77/25 111/24 115/19 I 219/18 220/13 221/2 I 213/3 213/23 218/15 I 9/18 11/24 18/20 21/3
106/16 106/17 106/23I 2439/7 222/18 228/8 228/19 I 219/25 221/13 221/14) 23/22 28/4 32/12 52/9
4108/2 108/20 110/15 IRese [1] 106/15 229/4 230/7 230/14 I 224/114 226/22 227/3 I 52/12 52/14 52/19
4143/2 11373 113/15 [rote [1] 112/4 230/16 230/16 230/18] 227/12 228/8 232/2 I 52/22 52/24 53/2 54/2
414/23 116/11 115/25IfOughly [2] 5/24 6/1 I 233/15 234/4 235/18 I 233/12 235/3 235/10 I 83/6 99/24 100/21
446/13 123/17 128/16I"ound [1] 55/25 236/11 236/22 237/14I 240/22 244/19 107/9 222/4 240/25
128/19 135/14 135/15I "ute [17] 17/7 18/7 I 239/1 239/17 240/6 I saying [23] 41/6 241/1 241/16 241/17
4136/1 137/18 138/23 I 19/1 22/12 23/2 23/7 I 243/24 246/12 52/23 53/6 72/3 73/2 I 241/18 241/22
438/23 139/24 153/3 I 27/15 27/19 27/21 I sake [1] 64/5 95/19 101/20 109/17 Ischoolboy [1] 206/3
4154/11 160/20 161/12I 28/22 29/12 33/20 Isalami [1] 150/4 122/24 126/24 127/15I schools [2] 114/10
164/15 161/16 163/14I 34/3 43/2 54/5 101/2 ISam [1] 45/10 128/9 129/11 130/25 I 114/11
163/15 163/15 164/21I 164/11 same [18] 30/24 139/8 149/6 150/3 I scope [2] 12/2 12/16
164/21 168/9 169/9 IToutes [2] 29/14 39/15 52/4 53/7 54/20) 150/11 159/11 191/17Iscratch [1] 160/2
1469/19 170/24 171/4 I 61/24 55/17 87/6 100/25 241/23 241/24 242/16I screen [22] 1/15 3/5
171/13 171/23 172/19] Royal [2] 146/20 104/4 144/6 149/19 I says [56] 3/10 13/4 I 3/7 12/23 15/18 26/5
173/13 197/1 2021 I 1894/3 156/15 170/9 170/10 I 15/2 16/6 19/5 20/17 I 83/16 86/5 111/18
204/6 208/7 208/14 ITUbric [1] 84/11 195/7 234/2 234/3 I 23/23 30/1967/10 I 128/11 132/21 151/22
209/5 209/9 209/14 ITuined [1] 100/1 236/5 67/16 104/8 105/8 17119 174/14 175/24
209/16 224/23 225/6 Irule [14] 73/1 150/8 Isat [2] 50/18 243/7 I 107/2 112/7 116/25 _I 179/14 179/17 209/19
295/10 225/15 226/15I 150/11 150/13 150/14I satisfaction [2] 6/25 I 120/12 123/25 126/20) 212/25 214/7 214/9
5309/5 2209/5 2316 I 190/17 150/17 150/25] 61/6 4129/3 129/7 129/18 I 218/18
30/4 232/13 234/5 I 1591/5 165/19 167/19 Isatisfactory [1] 22/2 I 136/13 148/5 152/14 I scroll [31] 3/10 14/25}
234/8 234/23 235/8 I 167/20 167/22 222/22Isatisfied [2] 178/14 I 154/16 155/12 157/10I 15/11 19/2 20/15 21/4
rules [4] 114/16 23713 157/12 157/12 178/16] 104/6 106/13 106/18
seria odona pata 114/25 150/15 166/16I save [2] 100/17 180/24 183/2 183/16 I 141/13 178/19 178/24]
246/11 246/20 run [14] 5/2 23/22 _I 171/22 189/22 190/11 194/9 I 180/24 182/25 183/15
right-hand [1] 106/23} 41/6 43/14 44/9 47/21I saving [1] 172/21 194/15 194/19 194/25] 190/1 190/9 191/24
rightly [10] 5/17 63/3 65/10 76/10 saw [13] 87/24 94/10I 199/5 199/16 202/15 I 195/10 199/16 202/15
27/11 40/7 50/2 114/17 125/24 125/24I 111/2 112/17 149/17 I 202/19 203/2 203/3 I 203/2 215/23 216/3
104/15 166/8 181/15 I 145/20 146/16 169/11 171/24 178/11) 204/5 204/24 215/23 I 216/10 216/19 217/24,
191/11 195/17 202/20I"UNdown [1] 166/20 184/25 190/10 195/25) 216/25 218/25 222/17I 218/24 219/24 222/16
running [5] 48/9 56/8I 201/13 206/21 222/25 223/24 232/22) 232/18
(96) reviewed... - scroll
INQ00001205
1NQ00001205
s 50/2 2/21 54/13 Iself-same [2] 52/4 _Iservices [23] 8/5 8/7 Ishareholder's [1]
——_______ —I 58/22 57/21 61/22 I 54/20 8/15 40/25 41/18
serutiny (4 & wan 69/2 69/18 70/1 73/16I self-sufficiency [1] I 43/12 63/10 63/22 _I shareholders [4]
seats [1] 3/3 74/25 78/6 83/16 I 42/13 76/14 76/20 7718 I 91/25
second [31] 7/8 83/18 84/4 84/16 85/9Isell [1] 187/19 77/13 84/14 150/9 shares [1] 202/15
syod ane azy — I 87589129117 I selling [2] 187/15 I 175/17 181/10 189/24] sharing [2] 133/21
73102 79/9 79/8 Bela I 92/10 98/24 103/12 I 187/16 195/4 199/12 210/10 I 206/23
87/2 Be/4 95/1 95/3 I 104/5 104/6 106/4 seminal [2] 48/13 I 210/12 211/13 213/6 ISharma [1] 153/6
99/23 104/6 105/14 I 106/13 106/14 107/1 I 153/2 serving [3] 45/18 _Ishe [8] 26/11 28/23
14/8 14116 147/22 I 107/20 111/2 111/24 Isend [1] 99/12 45/24 77/3 28/24 107/3 123/25
465/18 1741/6 174/10 I 1139 115/17 118/6_Isending [1] 125/14 Isession [2] 134/11 I 125/23 125/24 189/8
t7atg 175/18 176/13] 118/23 121/13 123/15] Senior [2] 133/19 I 184/17 she's [1] 220/23
477/13 189/23 193/11/ 125!1 128/15 140/8 I 135/4 sessions [1] 55/23 Isheer [2] 87/11 136/2
201/10 207/1 21aing I 141/16 144/16 148/4 Isense [18] 17/15 —_Iset [26] 17/9 18/5 I shift [2] 125/21 126/5
5/3 148/8 149/15 152/25 I 26/15 33/7 36/21 19/21 20/8 35/24 I shoes [1] 98/6
160/5 165/14 167/7 I 39/14 46/14 50/7 83/4I 38/21 43/16 47/11 shop [1] 69/24
173/23 175/1 177/4 I 85/20 102/4 107/13 I 52/25 53/4 53/10 short [12] 24/18
180/18 188/3 190/10 I 114/19 114/20 115/6 I 55/14 56/20 72/22 70/18 70/23 78/4 92/9
Secondly [1] 158/25
secret [1] 132/13
Secretaries [2] 83/23
106/15 191/15 198/11 210/9 I 146/15 155/1 158/10 I 84/16 84/22 94/23 103/9 109/16 115/15
Secretary [76] 1/24 215/23 216/3 216/10 I 237/7 134/1 140/21 141/23 I 173/21 209/25 225/24
2/17 3/6 3/9 3/11 3/24] 219/12 217/15 219/22I sensible [2] 86/16 155/25 189/13 196/18) 229/22
5/3 5/11 7/16 9/7 25/3] 220/14 220/16 222/8 I 202/5 206/8 210/14 222/7 I short-circuit [1]
36/12 41/24 42/11 223/6 223/25 236/18 Isensitive [3] 33/17 Isets [5] 23/17 99/24 I 103/9
43/24 45/2 60/22 237/7 238/9 240/23 I 52/10 132/14 116/23 223/6 224/18 Ishorter [1] 70/12
64/20 66/15 80/19 _—«I Seeing [3] 102/22 sent [5] 31/17 131/7 Isetting [16] 18/10 I shortest [1] 212/10
80/22 81/6 81/11 82/3) 102/25 112/10 203/17 203/19 216/12) 52/25 84/10 89/17 I shortfall [18] 6/12
82/9 83/18 84/12 seek [3] 12/521/9 Isentence [10] 28/13 I 89/19 90/2 90/10 13/14 16/1 19/15
84/19 85/6 86/12 21/19 97/16 118/24 120/11 I 90/13 91/21 92/6 19/22 20/23 21/7 24/2)
86/20 87/14 87/19 ISeeking [2] 7/17 147/21 171/5 171/9 I 94/13 142/1 154/9 30/9 32/11 82/25
87/22 89/3 95/8 95/25I 12/18 183/23 234/17 235/24) 155/16 239/22 240/5 I 211/9 233/4 233/17
96/8 96/12 96/18 seeks [1] 15/24 sentences [1] 148/16Isettled [4] 21/12 233/21 235/9 235/21
96/20 101/23 106/17 Isee™ [13] 59/18 sentiment [1] 159/20 I 21/13 21/18 155/7 236/3
4107/2 107/7 107/12 70/11 122/6 122/10 Iseparate [4] 20/20 settlement [2] 82/22 I shortfalls [15] 20/12
407/14 107/18 116/2 I 122/17 122/23 123/2 I 24/7 40/6 22216 242/15 192/22 193/11 193/14
torr 11719 117/17, I 153/13 155/18 156/3 separated [1] 7/14 I settlements [4] 194/19 204/11 204/22
421120 124/18 131/10] 177/25 21215 241/23 Iseparately [4] 101/1 I 19/20 37/6 156/14 I 210/21 210/22 215/14
437/20 140/24 143/25/Seemed [3] 86/16 I 101/21 161/14 161/24] 172/10 232/19 232/24 233/14)
146/12 183/13 156/22I 159/9 160/15 September [14] 2/1 Isettling [1] 242/10 I 235/14 235/17
157/16 187/16 188/14/9eems [11] 14/23 I 78/17 79/8 80/21 81/2Iseven [2] 226/18 —_I shortly [9] 1/5 7/9
189/13 162/11 162/12I 53/16 56/6 56/8 124/5I 81/2 81/8 96/1 116/1 I 243/9 8/18 14/24 20/22 25/2
162/24 163/24 164/20I 158/1 160/24 193/13 I 174/14 174/17 174/21Iseventh [1] 88/5 _I 99/11 102/9 184/4
46718 170/5 220/22 I 205/12 232/23 233/12I 23/5 228/18 several [9] 13/24 I should [81] 1/24 2/5
20118 27/16 23077 (Seen [45] 2/4 8/20 Isequence [1] 121/5 I 36/13 140/23 202/10 I 15/16 16/13 17/9
Secretary's [3] 96/11I 9/22 12/14 16/2 24/25Iseries [1] 136/4 I 219/19 224/13 230/26) 21/14 21/22 26/14
Od tots 32/17 32/24 33/1 40/4Iserious [12] 17/2 I 233/25 236/25 28/15 35/7 38/24
section [3] 21/5 I 85/3 65/7 67/10 68/14] 110/5 144/20 192/16 Isevere [1] 100/5 I 41/19 42/21 46/9
o15It8 218/21 68/19 97/3 103/4 I 205/25 206/11 206/13Iseverity [1] 120/7 I 46/20 51/21 53/19
sector [13] 121/22 I 10315 103/15 103/20 I 207/18 207/21 220/25 Shah [3] 59/20 59/21 I 54/14 56/23 62/15
Tag 16-145/16 146/25] 1067 108/4 109/22 I 23316 244/13 24818 62/19 64/3 75/12 79/8
447/11 18712 17/4, I 112/5 112/17 11/3 Iseriously [2] 206/4 I shall [7] 27/7 29/4 _I 85/25 86/10 89/1
17012 229/18 222/20 I 135/14 161/18 163/14] 206/5 70/17 100/3 115/8 I 90/17 92/13 95/7
220193 293/2 293/15 I 104/21 165/8 170/1_I seriousness [1] 170/25 232/2 99/21 99/21 101/1
secured [1] 356 I 180/21 182/23 185/24) 136/2 shapes [1] 59/1 101/9 102/7 103/23
Securing [2] 67/15 I 185/25 186/9 192/12 Iservant [1] 120/14 IShapps [1] 153/10 I 104/2 110/8 110/10
O31 199/17 201/8 206/20 Iservants [5] 72/25 _Ishare [4] 31/13 31/16] 110/16 127/13 127/16
security [3] 17/19 I 207/16 211/16 216/18] 9015 128/17 147/13 I 121/17 164/21 129/24 129/24 131/3
O11 y3)12 237/4 148/22 shared [3] 60/10 I 131/3 134/14 134/16
see [93] 3/9 4/1 4/10 [Sees [2] 195/1 serve [1] 85/23 73/15 227123 135/15 138/2 141/5
Maeno 7 710. I 205/13 service [14] 48/1 [shareholder [15] __I 146/1 150/23 150/25
9/12 14/25 15/11, [Select [6] 9/8 55/2 I 66/23 76/2 90/22 _I 60/12 67/11 84/12 I 151/2 161/17 161/23
15103 17123 tale I 62/13 158/21 207/7 I 131/17 132/10 145/20] 85/8 85/11 89/14 I 164/25 165/1 168/17
25182613440 I 219/3 146/20 148/3 154/5 I 90/23 94/7 131/4 I 168/18 173/3 17/8
44/20 46/21 49/24. (Sel [5] 42/13 42/13 I 181/6 182/4 185/18 I 133/22 140/5 146/7_I 193/16 200/25 201/1
52/4 53/7 54/20 202/23 146/11 146/12 220/15) 202/3 210/9 221/25
(97) scrutiny - should
INQ00001205
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s simple [4] 97/25 186/22 228/24 230/4 I 32/14 32/23 33/2 219/9 227/21 230/6
should. [12] 233/3 I 115/2 195/12 213/22 Isituation [14] 10/10 I 33/13 35/14 35/18 I 233/11 235/2 23618
233/13 233/16 233/20ISimplify [1] 115/4 I 17/12 18/24 29/9 I 37/25 41/9 42/12 I 236/19 239/11 239/21
234/5 234/12 234/17 ISimply [16] 3/8 16/25] 29/21 31/9 31/18 I 42/15 42/17 42/24 I 240/11
234/17 235/1 240/3 22/13 23/21 36/25 57/16 67/14 73/5 42/25 43/3 43/11 sometimes [4] 10/16
344/12 246/22 46/9 48/22 57/16 62/3I 120/4 180/19 240/22 I 43/22 43/23 44/16 _I 93/20 238/9 238/12
shouldn't ay 87g I 92/21 140/14 122/19 I 2azr22 46/10 49/13 49/18 Isomewhere [2] 72/23
Borie tose 11/8 I 147/7 161/11 163/22 Isix [5] 29/5 99/9 I 49/25 50/6 55/23 I 210/24
tet9 181/10. 151/11 I 196/13 124/21 223/2 225/5 I 56/23 57/13 57/15 _ Isoon [5] 17/7 32/9
a since [20] 5/216/8_Isixth [1] 88/5 58/21 59/2 61/1 62/8 I 46/24 47/2 50/7
show [4] 60/18 94/12I 26/4 32/18 48/2 71/6 Isize [2] 85/13 94/13 I 63/16 63/23 65/8 I sooner {7] 53/21
aon 489/22 74/9 74112 130/23 I sizes [1] 59/1 65/15 65/17 65/19 __I 138/2 162/9 245/19
showed [3] 103/2 I 152/25 153/5 158/1_Isky [1] 32/10 66/3 72/1 72/20 73/15] 245/21 245/24 246/4
inate 43/49 162/19 189/9 216/2 ISLA [1] 185/17 7515 76/15 84/5 95/8 Isop [2] 131/1 131/2
showing [3] 92/22 I 217/4 222/15 22313 ISLAs [2] 184/10 I 100/16 101/5 108/17 I sorry (21] 48/13
226/11 241/7 185/10 106/2 108/7 120/19 I 70/40 74/2 74/8 92/1
109/14 157/6
shown [2] 62/21
152/1
single [6] 93/1 97/7 Islicing [1] 150/4 125/25 127/8 128/17 I 121/8 127/17 127/20
114/14 146/24 148/22I slide [1] 89/22 130/2 136/25 138/19 I 128/4 128/9 128/13
190/14 slightly [5] 22/19 138/21 144/16 148/7 I 129/9 141/16 185/16
einer phe 922 sir [71] 1/3 1/8 1/12 I 52/17 188/10 195/10 I 151/14 153/20 154/4 I 185/19 193/21 218/5
1/16 27/10 29/7 30/13) 231/7 154/14 156/3 157/6 I 222/7 226/6 226/24
sic [2] 182/19 244/16
sick [1] 172/16
SID [2] 124/20 126/8
side [10] 15/9 35/4
30/20 31/3 31/13 45/4) slow [8] 21/17 113/8 I 157/24 160/18 161/17) 228/23
50/23 50/23 51/3 51/6I 134/7 148/19 149/11 I 163/1 163/16 167/11 Isort [29] 28/20 42/17
51/11 51/17 52/10 150/16 166/6 166/17 I 168/20 178/18 179/14I 46/14 49/25 65/21
52/20 53/4 53/6 53/9 Islower [1] 148/13 179/23 180/4 180/12 I 68/19 72/3 73/10
pe eee 3 59/20 66/11 70/6 slowing [2] 87/23 181/19 181/20 182/18] 73/19 74/19 87/5 87/6
200/6 214/12 70/14 70/25 75/3 148/24 183/18 187/6 197/23 I 92/19 93/7 96/10 97/3
sides [2] 100/5 172/2 75/18 76/11 77/7 slowly [2] 138/21 198/1 200/9 200/23 I 109/21 117/10 118/23
77/22 78/6 115/6 195/10 201/8 206/20 206/21 I 125/17 131/9 143/12
Sight [1] 201/10
sign [6] 24/21 78/23
185/14 186/24 187/11
115/17 168/4 168/13 Ismall [5] 19/7 45/3 207/21 213/17 224/8 I 143/14 146/3 146/5
171/2 171/3 173/12 I 57/19 70/6 70/11 229/2 229/6 237/15 I 146/16 149/16 169/6
mole 173/17 173/23 205/22Ismaller [1] 76/25 I 237/16 239/14 240/8 I 200/9
signal [1] 122/16 I 208/18 209/2 209/13 Iso [374] 240117 242/1 242/8 Isorting [3] 61/23
signalling [1] 109/24 I 209/17 224/17 224/20Iso-called [1] 35/11 I 242/24 243/1 24317 I 120/25 126/15
signature [8] 2/9 I 225!1 225/3 22515 Isocial [5] 67/13 24616 sorts [3] 140/22
OO 78/20 78/29 I 225111 225/12 225/19] 67/21 67/22 68/3 _ Isomebody [6] 186/13I 155/5 157/3
Fori0 79/11 106/14 I 225/21 226/1 231/23 I 69/14 186/15 186/17 187/13I sought [2] 94/4
{7st 232/3 232/12 234/19 Isociety [2] 76/17 I 215/22 217/19 228/13
signed [1] 18616 I 236/2 241/10 241/24 I 239/5 somehow [1] 49/6 Isource [6] 69/25
significance [3] 4/22 I 242/24 243/25 245/5 Isoft [1] 109/19 someone [12] 29/10 I 234/1 234/4 235/7
1an/25 1486/1 246/19 247/1 248/12 Isoftware [6] 79/19 I 37/16 77/8 108/18 I 237/4 237/6
significant [31] 4/14 I 248/24 162/2 223/18 223/19 I 130/16 135/16 138/6 Isources [1] 236/12
Bi 5/99 /t1 16 [Sif Alan [2] 30/13 I 229/23 243/12 138/15 138/22 140/12) spare [1] 121/5
10103 11/21 12/4 19/8) 313 sold [1] 187/21 149/6 169/11 sparks [1] 192/12
24/18 22/14 23/4 23/aISit Alan's [2] 30/20 Isole [6] 84/12 85/8 Isomething [70] 11/1 I speak [7] 49/9 49/14
23/11 2918 31/4 I 31/13 85/11 131/4 140/5 I 11/25 15/13 29/24 I 63/18 92/1 94/6
31/14 34/13 34/16 Sit Wyn [28] 27/10 I 146/11 31/22 32/7 36/10 ‘I 163/21 225/13
37/8 38/12 46/10 29/7 50/23 50/23 51/3I solely [7] 234/17 40/13 40/18 43/21 speaking [7] 14/3
46/21 49/14 60/19 51/6 51/11 51/17 234/21 235/7 235/7 I 58/13 59/8 61/6 61/9 I 30/21 121/1 127/12
65/5 100/24 105/2 52/10 52/20 53/4 53/6I 235/13 235/25 236/5 I 64/25 65/25 69/8 131/19 132/24 245/21
132/4 138/5 205/13 I 93/9 75/18 76/11 solicitor [4] 2/21 69/20 72/1 72/6 76/12Ispeaks [1] 197/24
significantly [2] 22/6 77/22 173/12 205/22 I 90/23 146/12 191/16 I 94/24 96/5 97/15 special [1] 67/1
76/25 208/18 209/2 209/13 Isolicitors [6] 54/16 I 103/11 110/7 111/11 Ispecific [24] 12/15
signify [1] 207/21 231/23 234/19 236/2 I 71/7 74/9 228/13 111/15 111/22 112/20I 38/8 39/3 43/1 46/5
silence [3] 1/9 42/5 242/24 243/25 245/5 I 228/18 230/1 112/21 113/12 113/21] 52/11 55/16 65/15
42/9 247/1 solution [1] 103/10 I 117/7 119/13 119/14 I 66/2 67/20 68/6 73/19
silent [4] 199/1 sit [13] 1/15 1/17 solutions [1] 181/4 I 124/10 144/19 147/25] 104/19 111/12 116/15
230/12 230/13 230/14I 42/6 42/7 187/9 solve [3] 61/20 150/21 155/20 156/6 I 116/16 133/3 156/8
similar [5] 67/14 220/25 221/19 224/2 I 109/13 113/13 156/7 156/24 158/13 I 163/1 164/11 164/17
74/21 82/17 102/4 224/7 227/2 231/25 Isome [122] 6/22 8/10) 159/2 159/8 159/22 I 165/5 166/5 194/10
141/11 245/17 246/8 10/8 10/13 16/23 18/8) 160/7 160/22 162/9 I specifically [20] 9/3
Simon [3] 189/22 sits [2] 241/2 241/3 I 19/21 20/4 20/7 20/10) 165/12 165/16 165/22) 27/23 37/15 40/25
190/19 218/13 sitting [7] 54/15 21/2 22/23 24/16 166/9 167/10 182/14 I 50/13 59/3 71/24
157/2 163/11 186/15 I 24/20 26/24 29/22 193/10 211/9 215/14 I 93/13 93/25 97/24
(98) should... - specifically
INQ00001205
INQ00001205
s start [22] 13/2 42/4 Istatements [21] stopped [2] 201/10 I 15/16 15/19 15/22
———_— —___ — I 46/24 60/24 102/25 I 78/16 88/11 136/24 I 201/14 18/16 19/3 133/1
specifically... [10]
110/19 112/10 126/17)
139/14 140/17 163/9
115/20 138/10 146/17I 140/25 142/23 170/11Istopping [1] 122/8 I 134/10 134/14 134/20}
158/15 160/1 160/15 I 173/11 174/9 175/1 I stories [1] 227/22 134/22 134/25 136/5
182/22 187/4 189/9 175/2 175/4 175/7 story [3] 114/6 136/9 137/8 137/12
ee" 16416 164/12 I 80/47 489/18 192/14] 176/16 177/23 178/1 I 135/18 135/21 155/13
specifics [2] 7/5 202/13 215/21 219/5 I 191/10 192/4 202/22 Istraight [2] 49/11 I submissions [6] 13/1
159/21 224/12 224/14 207/6 211/15 246/24 I 232/16 27/12 51/12 51/13
Spectator [1] 80/10 IStarted [7] 59/16 states [2] 66/17 straightforward [4] I 166/2 231/21
speculate [1] 122/18 I 100/14 1146/7 116/11 I 181/24 23/5 27/16 37/1 44/24I submit [1] 48/23
speculative [1] 155/3I 1252 162/4 173/9 stating [1] 125/11 Istrategic [12] 40/1 [submitted [1] 177/11
sped [1] 32/13 starting [4] 1/12 status [5] 124/1 72/19 85/12 140/7 I subpostmaster [20]
speed [17] 5/19 7/1 I 48/15 124/18 155/9 I 124/5 140/10 181/6 I 140/8 140/23 142/12 I 53/20 74/4 108/14
32/4 50/4 50/19 100/8I Starts [3] 111/5 181/12 143/16 155/25 157/7 I 139/6 139/15 163/3
01/4 104/2 107/16. I 118/23 156/18 Staunton [28] 115/22] 157/13 157/19 164/8 179/12 180/16
407/10 107/14 108/5 {Starvation [2] 171/12) 115/23 116/9 116/24 Istrategically [1] 186/7 188/5 188/11
174/17 116/25 117/2 117/20 I 181/3 189/7 215/13 227/7
111/8 134/2 134/5
148/11 148/18
speedily [2] 36/16
state [77] 1/24 2/17 I 117/21 118/8 119/14 Istrategy [21] 3/14 I 227/9 234/7 235/9
3/6 3/9 3/11 3/24 5/4 I 119/20 120/11 122/16] 45/17 60/11 92/5 93/5I 235/22 240/2
5/11 7/16 10/2 20/7 I 122/24 122/25 123/5 I 99/6 142/20 152/8 _ I subpostmaster’s [2]
cpoedy [3 18/23 I 25/336/12 36/23 I 130/9 130/14 192/19 I 182/19 182/17 189/17] 186/4 187/8
ay 41/24 42/11 43/25 I 134/4 134/15 13513 I 153/19 185/2 155/17 Isubpostmasters [56]
cponariy sions I 45/260/22 64/20 I 15/6 136/20 138/3 I 155/24 15613 158/2 I 5/7 45/11 45/15 45/19
Seer gy ois I 68/22 66/15 80/19 I 13975 139/10 149120 I 15/3 15818 158/10 I 53/14 59/21 GON
spending [5] oi I 81/3 81/6 81/11 82/4 IStaunton's [3] 158/12 66/25 71/5 74/5 98/6
76 N3 I 82/6 82/9 83/18 83/23I 132/23 133/4 136/15 Istrategy-wise [1] I 134/3 139/10 139/17
pont 3} 10/25 16/14] 84/12 84/19 84/23 Istave [1] 242/10 I 45/17 153/3 162/18 163/14
spent 85/6 86/12 86/20 _Istay [4] 123/23 _Istrategylpolicy [1] I 163/20 163/22 16412
87/20 87/22 89/3 96/9I 230/12 230/13 230/14] 152/17 164/4 164/14 175/14
spike [1] 40/15
spirit [3] 53/15 53/18
69/18
96/21 107/7 107/14 Istayed [1] 156/16 stream [1] 145/22 176/13 177/19 178/8
107/18 116/2 116/7 Istaying [1] 122/14 I street [3] 75/21 76/13) 178/17 179/8 184/19
split [1] 93/20 117/17 121/20 124/18] steer [1] 50/1 76/17 185/2 185/6 185/20
spoke [5] 37/24 131/10 137/21 140/24] steers [1] 15/13 streets [1] 57/21 188/22 193/12 198/10)
48/17 143/5 208/1 145/7 146/10 153/13 IStein [30] 45/8 45/9 Istrength [1] 137/7 200/13 206/13 219/23
245/20 156/22 157/16 157/16] 45/10 61/9 73/23 stress [2] 145/7 221/17 222/10 226/10
158/14 159/13 162/11] 151/19 162/22 163/16] 146/10 226/14 226/16 227/1
Reena 18) 162/12 162/24 163/24I 166/20 224/19 224/24I stringent [1] 142/16 I 233/14 234/6 235/6
spokesp 164/20 167/8 170/5 I 225/4 226/2 231117 strong [3] 44/7 139/5I 235/17 238/5 238/8
cponwored [ty 7ai6 I 7112 171/16 171148) 292/13 232/14 293/10] 139/14 238/12 238/17 238/23
Seetmane ry bin? I 175/13 197/12 220/22] 233/28 234/9 239/2 Istronger{1] 64/6 I 290/9 230/19 240/1
21/9 227/16 230/7 I 240/18 241/11 242/13] structure [13] 5/2 Isubpostmasters' [1]
Soret eer State's [1] 143/25 I 242/17 245/18 246/1 I 7/15 7/22. 41/2 41/8 I 238/7
stated [4] 135/2 246/18 248/6 248/18 I 43/20 55/14 61/3 subsequent [3]
sage [3] 26/17 38/6 168/15 205/17 223/17I 249/7 65/16 68/17 69/22 20/25 143/2 200/2
stages [3] 8/20 23/16IStatement [60] 1/25 Istenographer [1] 231/9 231/13 subsequently [2]
198/5 2/11 2/14 25/1 25/3 I 70/8 structure/governanc I 117/21 134/8
stake [1] 64/25 33/13 63/7 73/14 step [2] 113/17 e[1] 41/2 subservient [1]
stakeholders [2] 78/24 79/3 79/13 129/21 structured [3] 146/15) 62/23
81/24 86/3 86/4 95/3 Isteps [4] 26/17 229/9 231/7 subsidise [1] 147/1
68/9 116/23
Stalybridge [1] 43/16
stand [5] 11/11 42/6
102/18 103/22 105/13) 166/24 216/17 231/20I structuring [1] 229/8 I substance [3] 104/18)
105/14 106/1 107/24 Istill [37] 6/25 7/25 I struggled [3] 213/15 I 137/11 191/22
219/21 219/21 233/24 115/23 118/10 118/15] 8/2 8/6 26/4 26/18 229/20 231/4 substantial [5] 30/22
standard [2] 83/22 132/20 141/7 145/2 I 31/19 37/7 44/6 45/18) struggling [2] 26/18 I 82/19 176/19 176/21
432/10 146/9 147/21 147/23 I 48/20 69/21 69/21 240/9 176/23
standards [2] 176/5 171/6 174/10 174/13 I 71/17 72/19 76/1 76/2I study [1] 228/20 substantially [1]
200/23 174/15 174/17 174/18I 77/12 77/14 83/24 Isub [2] 107/17 100/13
standing [1] 65/22 174/20 175/25 176/2 I 87/13 88/8 98/13 142/15 substantive [3] 2/7
standpoint [2] 176/9 180/11 192/4 99/10 102/15 117/8 Isub-bullet [2] 107/17I 143/3 176/25
219/16 219/16 195/18 196/2 196/10 I 162/1 172/21 176/18 I 142/15 success [4] 62/16
stands [2} 15019 I 196/11 196/21 197/11) 178/21 196/22 197/13] subbing [1] 241/21 I 77/6 142/2 142/68
485/17 197/23 200/1 200/5 I 210/17 215/9 229/11 Isubject [4] 26/13 successful [3]
standstill [2] 242/3 200/6 200/9 203/22 229/19 233/24 158/22 197/25 217/12I 104/20 105/7 111/21
242/18 207/7 207/10 209/7 I stop [2] 149/16 submission [21] 13/1/successfully [1]
209/12 209/20 213/1 I 222/15 13/4 14/9 15/6 15/12 I 120/20
(99) specifically... - successfully
INQ00001205
INQ00001205
s 216/14 surveyed [1] 178/17 I 42/1 42/3 46/14 48/16I 93/19 93/22 94/25
a0 2714 [Summer [2] 30/18 Isurvivors [1] 4/24 I 48/21 62/11 70/9 133/14 179/9 190/24
Pa Rete 14 I 50714 suspect [6] 90/7 91/7I 70/13 70/15 70/18 I 191/16 193/6 203/6
46/2 47/22 53/19 ISUMmer" [1] 30/23 I 119/22 120/5 127/18 I 75/15 86/23 88/25 I 203/14 207/13 215/22
55/12 58/17 67/25 Summit [1] 46/13 167/17 89/2 91/7 103/7 216/11 217/10 217/15)
88/1 68/4 68/11 101/2ISUMS [4] 15/7 18/15 Isuspected [1] 214/20] 109/25 114/9 115/7 I 217/16 217/16 217/20
107/21 109/4 196/7 I 124/6 229/12 suspension [1] 47/24] 119/9 121/16 125/9 I 218/12 228/19 245/16
Sunak [1] 80/24 suspicious [1] 199/2 I 125/25 132/18 138/21I 245/24 246/7
bes aeoe eee Sunday [2] 65/6 sustainability [1] 146/6 149/2 149/11 Iteams [10] 66/22
530/16 241/9 243/56 I 119/15 42/13 149/17 151/21 157/8 I 91/3 91/4 92/10 92/14
243/20 super [1] 182/16 _Isustainable [2] 41/9 I 161/2 166/23 168/7 I 94/6 94/10 194/6
sudden [2] 40/14 [Suppliers [1] 181/15 I 41/22 172/19 189/2 189/15 I 242/19 242/19
40/20 supply [8] 179/12 I swift [2] 13/5 220/4 I 192/13 193/22 195/10Itechnical [3] 181/23
suddenly [2] 112/24 I 182/10 189/12 196/24] swiftly [2] 24/4 99/15) 198/9 202/12 202/17 I 184/13 199/21
"99/1 201/25 207/5 212/17 ISwiss [2] 121/16 _I 204/16 206/3 222/11 Itechnically [2] 23/1
sue [1] 242/5 235/5 121/16 222/12 225/16 228/9 I 182/3
suffered [2] 74/5 [SUPPOrt [35] 9/6 10/5] switch [2] 129/1 230/2 232/11 232/22 I technology [2] 43/11
326/19 63/11 66/16 133/24 I 168/8 take’ [1] 125/20 143/18
sufficiency [1] 42/13 I 163!4 170/23 1735 _Isworn [6] 1/19 78/9 Itaken [20] 27/10 tell [13] 50/16 64/19
¥ 176/10 176/14 192/18I 174/3 248/2 248/14 I 38/12 51/8 53/24 58/9I 81/23 95/3 99/12
sacl 47/19 113/21 I 192/20 195/5 207/8 I 249/1 108/24 118/16 123/12] 105/13 121/12 141/6
185/22 196/7 207/11 210/10 211/5 Isystem [88] 25/14 137/13 143/16 148/23] 141/16 145/1 173/14
sufficiently [2] 185/5 211/13 213/10 214/23) 33/11 33/23 34/25 153/18 186/16 192/20) 187/16 244/19
202/21 217/6 217/9 217/16 =I 36/15 37/11 37/21 213/10 214/16 214/16Itelling [2] 50/12
217/20 227/11 235/16) 38/14 39/4 40/18 227/12 233/18 234/13] 244/16
suggest [2] 75/6 90/1) 53/90 236/9 236/19 I 49/21 54/13 57/6 takes [4] 113/18 tells [1] 237/5
suggested [9] 58/11
67/1 86/9 95/14 238/18 238/25 239/4 I 57/11 57/12 82/11 113/23 154/18 207/18I template [2] 216/7
116/18 205/18 205/24I 239/15 239/19 241/19] 115/2 137/19 137/19 Itaking [19] 1/9 55/21 I 216/9
220/19 220/21 supporter [2] 139/5 I 144/18 150/18 150/24I 76/7 77/18 85/7 87/15Itemporary [1] 68/5
139/14 151/9 161/1 167/1 91/13 110/5 113/4 —_Iten [1] 216/17
suggesting [2] 10/9 I 5 Upporting [15] 167/12 178/18 179/20] 113/10 152/17 158/4 Itend [6] 87/20 110/7
. 142/4 144/18 194/4 I 180/3 180/12 181/1 I 170/7 173/9 192/3__I 111/1 131/23 140/25
suggestion [7] Sot 194/6 194/14 194/22 I 181/16 181/22 182/1 I 221/13 231/20 231/24I 166/17
239/14 241/12 2443 I 195/2 196/16 206/16 I 182/4 182/7 183/5 _ I 236/16 tended [1] 117/15
suggestions [1] 206/17 206/23 238/22I 183/17 183/20 184/7 Italk [13] 25/3 36/23 Itends [1] 85/22
a 244/8 245/10 245/15 I 184/8 184/23 185/10 I 72/12 73/22 94/21 I Teneo [2] 40/1 43/5
suggests [3] 92/3 Supportive [2] 185/21 185/22 186/18I 110/1 126/2 137/2 _Itension [1] 5/18
19518 229/23 107/19 111/25 187/15 187/16 187/19I 21/1 221/8 224/10 Itensions [2] 9/2
suitability [2] 139/4 [SUPPOse [1] 235/22 I 187/19 188/5 188/6 I 245/17 246/7 157/6
136/15 supposed [1] 137/3 I 188/8 188/17 188/25 Italked [6] 5/5 61/22 I tenure [2] 60/4
suitable [2] 1285/3 /SUre [60] 4/18 11/4 I 189/3 189/3 18915 I 63/15 163/22 229/14 I 170/23
O44/17 11/10 18/22 25/4 189/15 190/17 191/8 I 229/14 term [10] 8/24 41/22
suited [1] 44/17 25/12 25/22 31/5 192/8 196/3 196/24 Italking [15] 43/23 I 45/24 60/11 142/10
31/25 33/5 37/22 197/18 197/24 198/2 I 57/3 69/24 88/13 90/9I 179/10 184/13 206/2
sum [39] 6/14 6/17
9120 10/21 11/4 14/11] 41/21 42/2 44/13 57/5] 198/11 199/8 199/11 I 94/1 94/22 97/24 209/25 220/23
12/7 12/15 13/7 13/13I 92/11 58/24 62/9 67/9I 200/3 200/8 200/19 I 113/1 120/23 128/6 I terminated [1]
13/17 13/18 13/20 68/15 83/5 85/17 200/24 201/5 201/21 I 170/7 208/8 211/2 238/13
13/22 14/14 14/17 94/15 96/10 97/6 201/23 202/1 202/8 I 224/24 termination [1] 47/24!
14/23 15/25 17/8 98/19 103/1 108/6 203/5 203/7 203/13 talks [3] 71/22 terms [60] 4/18 6/21
47/14 17/21 18/25 108/25 111/25 114/14] 204/8 205/4 212/7 223/14 234/11 7/9 8/13 10/5 14/2
20/11 21/11 21/22 116/3 120/6 120/23 I 212/11 213/7 237/13 Itape [2] 118/13 22/10 24/20 27/12
22/3 22/11 23/2 23/11I 122/14 123/13 138/13] systems [7] 80/2 118/22 27/24 28/2 34/13
24/20 24/22 25/18 138/22 139/7 145/7 I 182/13 182/16 183/25Itaxman [1] 186/8 38/22 42/25 43/20
25/19 26/16 27/14 146/21 148/15 148/23] 184/2 200/14 212/19 Itaxpayer [2] 108/7 I 47/12 47/16 48/4
149/14 159/5 160/14 I> ———_I 161/13 48/21 50/4 68/22
feet ne 10419 I seor19 1068/7 1668 IT___Itaxpayers [3] 16/18 I 72/17 73/21 83/6 90/9
summarise [2] 20/1 I 186/11 167/21 167/23Itab [3] 2/5 78/18 79/2) 18/10 18/13 90/10 94/13 99/14
150/8 172/3 172/25 173/1 Itable [3] 41/20 42/22 Itaxpayers' [1] 147/1 I 101/3 120/16 122/13
summarising [4] 182/11 189/14 202/10] 216/14 Taylor [1] 125/9 123/1 126/1 131/13
91/12 240/19 244/18 tables [1] 223/6 teachings [1] 92/14 I 138/5 138/11 138/14
summary [8] 13/3 surprised [5] 96/12 Itake [64] 4/255/7 team [34] 89/13 141/11 144/15 145/12
15/23 118/19 119/6 I 96/16 125/17 154/16 I 5/11 13/24 15/20 89/16 89/18 90/1 91/8] 147/15 147/19 154/4
430/1 168/20 2161 I 240/16 22/20 26/12 26/20 I 91/12.91/1891/20 I 154/11 154/13 156/24
surprising [1] 155/8 I 27/21 28/4 28/5 34/23I 92/23 93/9 93/14 160/3 161/5 161/6
(100) such - terms
INQ00001205
INQ00001205
T 178/4 183/12 184/3 I 29/12 36/5 36/17 238/12 238/11
terms...[11] 169/3 189/18 193/23 204/12) 36/17 36/18 37/14 then [104] 8/18 10/7 Ithese [66] 6/24 19/11
170/17 170/19 172/9 209/17 211/16 212/24) 37/22 38/14 38/16 11/16 21/21 25/7 30/6I 20/7 22/23 28/21 32/8)
1484/10 194/4 195/12 213/2 216/4 216/6 39/1 39/5 39/8 47/20 I 33/16 34/6 34/9 38/5 I 34/14 36/11 37/2 44/8
212/3 222/3 224/25 224/16 225/19 226/1 I 47/21 48/1 52/25 39/7 41/13 43/18 48/20 49/5 51/18 52/2
2208/1 226/8 231/11 231/14 I 55/11 57/22 57/23 49/13 54/24 66/23 52/24 53/10 54/19
terrible [1] 124/16 232/11 232/15 234/20) 57/23 57/23 57/24 67/23 69/9 73/8 79/21I 54/22 57/22 60/18
terrific [1] 66/24 241/11 245/6 246/17 I 58/3 58/4 59/16 66/21] 80/2 80/4 80/9 80/14 I 62/8 62/11 65/11 66/1
test [1] 212/20 246/19 246/22 246/25] 71/6 75/7 75/23 98/7 I 80/21 81/10 81/17 66/8 68/20 68/25
tests [1] 212/18 2471 98/11 98/18 104/24 I 81/22 84/16 84/17 I 77/11 77/14 84/6 84/71
text [1] 134/22 thanked [1] 51/6 108/25 112/2 114/22 I 86/14 88/16 88/23 _I 98/2 100/13 100/19
than [73] 9/16 10/19 [Thanks [1] 30/4 136/18 152/16 153/16I 91/6 98/1 98/3 98/16 I 122/3 129/1 131/8
11/5 16/8 16/21 19/12Ithat [1511] 156/5 161/21 162/19 I 98/22 99/23 99/25 I 149/15 150/1 156/17
22/6 30/8 35/12 40/19) that! [1] 238/1 163/7 163/23 164/4 I 101/11 104/17 104/25] 157/6 164/7 164/15
<ele 50/20 f1/4 53/6 [that's [144] 1/7 2/8 I 164/5 165/6 174/11 I 105/8 105/19 109/9 I 166/16 179/14 179/24
B3DT BAID3 STNG I 2/10 2/19 2122 5/2 7/3) 179/16 181/15 181/16) 114/11 118/19 119/18) 182/2 182/25 19/2
bai2eaino sos I 8/10 9/15 10/9 15/14 I 181/17 185/2 1856 I 120/2 124/18 12517 I 204/7 208/10 216/23
82/10 90/14 91/8 92/5I 15/14 17/7 21/5 21/6 I 186/16 186/17 192/6 I 127/9 12978 130/23 I 217/6 21818 223/4
oar 96/18 97/2 97/6) 20/12 26/5 26/15 I 193/14 193/25 194/4 I 131/3 13375 135/4 I 223/8 223/15 223/21
98/19 100/18 103/15 I 28/12 31/6 33/15 38/1] 194/23 196/17 196/19I 135/17 136/13 141/23I 238/3 240/5 240/5
103/24 108/18 108/19] 42/23 43/5 46/9 47/6 I 200/10 207/9 207/15 I 142/3 142/7 142/11 I 241/9 24/1 243/14
t09/1 112/9 trate I 53/4 54/1 54/3 56/1 I 208/2 2114/5 212/18 I 145/1 147/19 148/4 I 243/22 244/12
tD1t7 1o4ye 131/11 I 56/1057/16 58/19 I 215/14 215/23 226/11] 149/21 150/21 151/6 Ithey [195] 14/19
152116 194/17 139/2 I 61/3 62/5 64/17 67/3 I 226/14 226/20 22716 I 152/14 152/19 152/20] 16/15 17/1 17/2 17/11
jaaia tazie vag I 70/14 75/8 75/18 I 297/42 227/13 227/15I 153/6 153/7 15319 I 17/12 17/17 18/2 1817
tsore 18114 1s2/16 I 75/23 77/4 79/4 Tar I 227/47 227/18 227/22) 153/12 160/4 167/22 I 20/12 21/11 22/2
453/16 156/10 157/25] 79/9 79/9 80/8 81/1 I 28/3 228/3 228/14 I 168/7 168/7 168/17 I 22/10 23/1 23/9 24/22
4162/9 164/17 169/21 I 81/21 83/9 84/1 85/21] 232/24 238/5 238/5 I 168/23 175/24 178/4 I 26/23 28/16 28/25
170/25 173/04 176/10] 87/20 90/13 90/19 I 238/6 238/6 238/10 I 183/12 188/16 190/24I 29/1 29/10 30/2 31/24I
18114 191/18 214/5 I 90/21 92/2 93/6 94/12] 238/10 238/24 239/10] 192/12 192/24 193/18] 32/8 33/18 34/5 34/6
309/10 229/19 o36re I 99/16 102/6 104/10 I 239/10 195/7 196/1 198/16 I 34/6 36/5 37/12 38/4
536/20 237/4 23715 I 106/2 106/16 107/23 Ithem [75] 3/1 7/4 I 199/1 203/2 204/3_I 38/15 38/19 39/5
538/11 239/29 dugg] 108/8 108/24 110/12 I 14/16 17/25 18/8 —_I 204/10 205/5 209/18 I 40/15 40/16 42/6 42/6
545/22 b45/os oae/a I 110/20 111/24 112/9 I 27/20 31/16 38/4 —_ I 226/2 226/19 236/18 I 43/15 44/13 44/20
thank [121] 1/21 1/24 114/10 114/11 120/8 I 38/24 44/20 45/7 238/14 53/13 53/20 55/8 55/9)
2/5 2/8 2/14 3/5 7/5 I 120/24 123/4 123/5 I 45/12 47/1 51/23 theory [1] 112/1 55/20 58/2 59/16
12/23 15/1 15/3 15/17I 123/20 124/8 124/20 I 52/25 53/13 54/11 there [268] 59/16 61/25 62/10
19/2 20/15 21/4 23/23I 125/12 126/10 127/1 I 63/12 69/22 76/23 I There'd [1] 151/24 I 69/21 69/21 69/22
24/20 27/10 28/10 128/16 128/19 132/24I 78/16 83/6 85/20 there's [63] 8/6 18/3 I 72/4 73/20 74/6 75/15)
30/3 30/5 33/10 39/22) 194/12 139/10 139/16] 91/14 91/14 94/10 18/22 20/7 21/4 22/21] 75/21 75/22 76/2 79/1
41/24 42/10 45/2 139/19 140/8 143/12 I 97/11 97/22 98/3 26/19 28/19 36/21 83/2 83/4 83/23 87/18
59/18 59/19 59/24 146/23 147/4 147/13 I 103/16 108/19 112/2 I 37/7 43/16 44/5 52/21] 90/4 90/7 90/8 92/12
60/21 64/7 70/5 70/6 I 147/14 150/11 152/11) 112/4 117/14 121/12 I 53/4 55/2 55/18 56/18] 93/9 97/10 97/11 98/9
70/21 70/25 73/22 155/8 156/23 157/4 I 131/6 133/5 133/8 59/15 60/6 60/9 60/12! 99/12 99/21 100/18
75/2 77/17 77/19 157/21 157/24 158/2 I 135/17 136/2 137/16 I 60/13 60/15 63/18 104/15 109/2 109/8
77/21 78/2 78/2 78/7 I 199/8 160/10 161/16 I 138/22 140/13 140/14] 63/25 64/25 65/18 109/10 109/14 109/15)
78/15 78/24 79/2 167/13 168/24 169/19] 140/24 141/1 143/5 I 65/21 71/25 73/10 114/23 114/24 117/15)
79/10 79/17 80/13 173/4 174/25 175/25 I 151/14 151/17 160/3 I 73/17 79/5 84/9 93/14I 119/24 120/22 120/24}
81/16 89/10 95/1 178/16 185/12 186/5 I 160/21 161/19 162/9 I 98/13 99/13 101/11 I 128/21 129/1 129/2
96/20 98/21 104/9 188/14 189/5 189/6 I 173/15 174/12 185/14) 114/15 125/8 127/1 I 129/20 131/7 131/22
106/22 106/25 115/12I 193/10 198/10 199/14] 192/10 192/13 192/24] 130/19 131/13 132/8 I 132/14 133/5 134/10
115/13 115/18 115/21I 201/19 202/4 208/20 I 198/16 206/23 208/17] 137/2 139/11 146/22 I 136/17 137/6 137/21
427/25 128/14 129/12I 209/3 209/14 222/2 I 212/10 227/5 227/12 I 151/6 154/18 155/13 I 137/25 143/6 144/4
1436/4 139/21 141/19 I 223/12 228/7 228/11 I 227/18 227/22 227/23) 169/15 170/24 171/4 I 144/4 144/6 146/7
444/25 147/19 151/13I 232/4 232/17 234/2 I 28/9 228/25 229/9 I 183/1 187/10 196/17 I 146/13 147/13 148/22
151/15 151/18 152/5 I 236/1 240/10 241/23 I 237/23 238/8 245/18 I 198/20 198/21 207/12I 148/24 152/21 159/12
152/6 162/14 162/15 I 242/11 242/18 242/22) 245/21 225/12 234/9 236/8 I 159/15 159/19 159/22
164/18 168/1 168/2. I 244/21 246/11 246/15Itheme [2] 177/24 241/10 242/20 159/23 160/8 160/11
168/13 171/1 173/16 I 246/15 230/8 thereafter [1] 102/9 I 160/11 160/15 160/19)
173/7 173/9 173/10 _ Itheft [3] 214/18 themes [1] 232/1 therefore [15] 16/12 I 160/20 160/22 160/25)
473/12 173/17 173/24] 299/18 234/13 themselves [12] 6/19) 28/14 37/8 39/6 67/18I 161/1 161/2 161/3
173/25 174/5 175/7 _ Itheir [102] 16/14 21/9I 27/4 44/19 57/8 63/22) 81/20 100/7 113/23 I 161/9 161/11 161/17
175/24 175/25 177/13I 21/12 22/15 25/11 114/21 167/24 200/18) 118/22 129/4 169/20 I 161/20 162/3 163/6
25/17 28/16 28/24 201/19 229/8 235/6 I 194/12 207/19 232/22) 164/25 165/1 175/6
(101) terms... - they
INQ00001205
INQ00001205
T
they... [58] 176/15
176/23 176/23 176/23
176/25 177/11 177/25
178/3 179/2 179/15
179/20 181/17 184/18
186/18 190/12 190/15
190/16 192/2 192/9
197/17 198/10 198/11
198/17 200/15 200/18
201/21 203/8 203/12
206/20 207/6 209/1
209/3 209/4 211/6
211/42 215/1 217/11
217/21 221/18 223/17
223/18 227/12 227/21
227/23 227/23 227/24
227/25 228/3 228/8
229/1 229/22 233/17
234/11 237/2 237/3
238/8 239/24 245/8
they'd [2] 38/24
227/22
they'll [1] 236/24
they're [16] 24/23
37/22 58/1 76/4 92/21
114/3 125/10 131/22
138/13 157/5 158/22
160/7 163/3 198/12
227/10 237/5
they've [10] 25/6
58/3 89/22 160/5
161/21 188/22 224/22
227/17 237/1 237/2
thing [38] 5/16 52/1
62/20 64/12 68/9 83/9
93/1 96/10 97/4 103/4I
103/5 103/14 103/15
103/16 103/19 103/20
113/2 113/3 114/23
124/8 135/14 135/15
143/12 144/9 147/20
148/22 149/5 149/7
149/19 161/15 163/15
164/21 164/21 165/15
198/15 234/2 234/3
236/6
things [100] 26/5
46/15 47/1 47/2 60/25
61/5 61/18 62/8 65/2
65/12 66/1 66/9 71/22
73/15 75/12 75/22
76/15 77/11 83/1
87/20 87/22 87/23
88/6 90/19 91/24
92/13 92/20 94/14
95/9 97/6 97/9 97/10
99/10 102/15 102/20
102/25 103/6 103/7
107/5 107/10 109/11
110/3 111/8 112/17
4113/7 113/25 114/14
114/17 114/24 115/5
119/18 120/17 124/8
125/17 126/15 127/10)
130/3 131/24 132/11
137/25 138/9 140/22
141/3 148/19 148/24
149/7 149/11 149/15
150/1 150/16 156/13
156/19 161/14 165/4
166/2 166/16 166/17
168/21 172/2 179/17
179/25 180/13 186/25)
197/3 197/6 197/6
200/23 201/24 206/3
213/18 221/11 224/8
229/4 229/6 229/12
237/22 239/5 240/5
240/6 243/8
think [276]
thinking [8] 32/10
42/19 44/11 72/18
72/22 73/20 130/16
154/2
thinks [5] 85/25
113/22 124/21 126/3
126/22
third [18] 5/24 99/25
124/13 124/17 129/13)
174/10 174/16 176/15)
ATTIN7 179/18 182/14)
183/25 189/5 193/3
194/8 197/25 199/12
201/3
third-party [1] 183/25)
this [474]
Thomas [6] 4/21
30/15 30/21 44/1 46/4
50/25
Thomas' [2] 15/13
31/17
Thornton [2] 61/10
156/5
Thornton's [1] 60/5
those [127] 11/21
12/6 12/11 14/2 14/14)
16/9 21/10 21/12 23/8)
23/17 24/21 25/18
25/19 26/22 27/2
27/24 31/20 31/23
32/3 33/2 33/20 33/22
34/4 35/18 37/9 37/24
38/2 38/6 39/10 39/14
39/21 40/2 40/8 41/13
51/23 52/4 52/12
52/18 52/22 53/2 53/7
55/24 58/16 61/25
64/4 67/20 70/9 74/19
74/23 75/7 76/19 77/3
77/13 84/22 90/20
97/15 117/18 137/24
140/22 142/12 148/16)
148/24 149/2 149/2
149/11 151/13 155/5
156/19 161/14 163/17)
164/23 166/1 166/2
166/17 171/13 172/9
172/18 174/23 174/24
175/2 175/4 175/7
176/6 178/3 178/13
178/14 179/2 179/7
180/4 180/13 180/14
182/6 182/16 182/21
182/21 184/2 186/9
186/25 188/13 190/5
190/24 197/13 198/14.
200/23 203/8 206/18
208/14 208/19 208/20
210/17 211/11 217/10
220/12 223/22 224/21
229/4 229/6 231/2
238/16 240/8 240/17
241/8 241/18 243/23
244/2 245/18 246/6
though [9] 31/20
37/11 73/19 74/15
74/23 147/13 155/18
201/16 229/20
thought [14] 28/9
28/25 31/2 35/18
40/17 43/22 60/2
98/17 127/8 157/24
176/17 221/1 230/8
235/24
thoughtful [3] 68/14
69/1 75/18
thoughts [1] 231/23
threatening [1]
110/21
three [24] 1/13 29/5
46/16 49/17 75/14
99/23 113/18 132/24
141/23 142/12 148/4
153/24 157/11 176/22
17715 191/9 211/25
212/21 218/6 218/15
228/11 228/23 228/24
230/11
three/four [1] 218/15
threshold [4] 22/22
22/23 32/22 52/5
thresholds [4] 51/20
through [49] 11/24
17/20 18/2 18/4 20/7
20/16 25/7 35/12
38/10 38/14 49/18
51/12 53/25 54/8
57/17 59/17 67/3 72/4
73/4 73/4 92/14 98/5
98/14 101/21 102/1
111/6 117/8 120/11
120/21 123/23 126/8
129/25 149/9 153/12
168/19 182/20 188/23
193/22 198/21 203/3
214/3 216/13 220/13
220/14 227/24 228/17
230/1 232/20 240/7
throws [1] 157/2
Thursday [1] 245/21
tick [2] 213/23 215/7
ticked [2] 97/7
114/15
time [69] 24/18 30/8
33/24 36/11 44/10
47/4 51/8 56/19 70/17
77/18 82/3 83/5 91/3
92/18 94/23 95/12
96/20 96/25 97/18
97/20 100/5 101/12
119/12 119/21 120/9
4121/1 121/19 122/19
130/15 137/5 137/5
138/21 148/12 149/2
151/17 151/20 153/5,
155/14 157/15 157/15
157/16 160/20 163/18
167/6 168/10 170/4
173/10 173/16 175/16
181/12 183/19 197/14
198/6 201/19 203/10
211/8 211/20 211/21
211/24 212/11 219/15
224/25 229/22 229/25
232/6 232/7 233/19
243/25 246/18
timeframe [1] 30/25
timeframe’ [1] 30/20
timeline [3] 45/21
46/1 46/2
timely [1] 105/6
times [9] 23/14 108/8
119/15 121/19 130/2
159/21 168/20 222/13
233/25
timescale [1] 18/1
timetable [2] 56/20
229/24
timing [3] 13/5 20/19
45/21
title [2] 153/16
217/16
today [35] 15/3 32/21
36/4 39/22 50/19
53/16 55/12 56/18
121/22 148/1 163/12
175/11 180/11 184/8
185/10 197/22 199/14
218/17 220/16 221/10)
222/12 224/11 224/21
227/2 227/14 23016
230/16 230/18 233/25
236/1 236/11 239/16
246/9 246/12 246/22
today's [2] 45/16
200/22
together [12] 6/16
62/8 67/19 68/10
92/15 94/24 135/1
152/18 205/2 232/20
235/19 237/7
Tokyo [1] 219/17
told [13] 34/11 83/1
95/7 96/24 98/1 98/12
131/4 172/20 179/24
184/18 190/16 203/12)
203/14
tomorrow [7] 220/7
224/14 224/21 246/9
246/11 246/12 246/21
tone [1] 211/13
too [26] 10/14 25/13
61/19 61/20 61/20
66/4 92/19 95/12
95/22 97/8 97/18
97/20 103/21 110/3
113/8 115/2 115/3
130/16 131/13 131/16)
131/18 131/18 151/5
176/11 206/7 220/24
took [7] 12/24 80/18
82/8 130/21 153/1
153/12 165/3
top [10] 21/11 43/24
111/16 127/12 128/1
129/8 147/23 191/24
203/2 231/12
topic [17] 33/10
39/22 71/11 73/22
95/2 176/13 195/7
214/4 216/20 218/16
224/7 224/22 226/12
229/13 229/14 230/8
237/10
topics [8] 71/8 72/18
162/21 176/8 197/5
230/25 244/2 245/18
total [3] 19/18 52/16
223/3
totally [1] 146/14
touch [5] 4/16 37/13
121/9 122/14 192/2
touched [1] 107/5
touches [1] 201/25
tough [2] 26/25 126/1
towards [12] 9/20
24/18 30/17 55/9
123/5 124/19 159/2
222/5 229/24 242/9
242/14 243/21
towns [1] 57/21
track [4] 118/13
tracker [2] 215/25
216/14
trade [20] 2/18 3/12
3/17 3/19 4/12 5/13
9/8 46/12 71/22 81/6
81/7 81/12 85/3 85/7
87/14 88/14 117/9
149/4 221/4 221/5
traditional [3] 33/20
34/3 43/12
traffic [14] 201/15
trail [2] 149/9 149/23
training [4] 2/25 3/1
3/3 120/16
transaction [2] 183/6
199/9
(102) they... - transaction
INQ00001205
1NQ00001205
T 139/8 175/4 244/21 Itypes [1] 211/11 underpins [1] 77/14 I 187/4 187/4 189/11
transactions [6] truly [1] 164/23 typo [3] 83/19 83/21 Iunderspend [1] 11/7 Iunreliable [5] 177/15
179/4 179/5 179/16 [trust [14] 8/14 41/16 I 83/24 understand [32] 5/16I 177/20 190/17 197/19}
180/5 180/6 189/7 I 491.6314 66/24 I 5119-7119 11/18 12/19] 203/13
transcript [10] 60/7 I 103/21 110/8 114/21 I _________) 18/19 24/14 29/2 unsatisfactory [1]
67/3 67/4 67/9 79/18 I 114/22 124/15 205/21IUCES [1] 122/1 33/23 43/22 47/11 I 158/4
11815 118/9 118/23 I 237/8 237/10 245/11 IUK [7] 20/6 64/21 I 49/8 50/15 58/22 unstable [1] 123/19
227/4 239/7 trusted [1] 217/21 65/13 122/2 220/2 58/25 81/15 91/19 —_ Iunsuitable [2] 116/9
transcription [4] truth [2] 132/16 239/5 239/6 92/1 120/9 141/9 4135/8
118/7 174/11 UK's [1] 61/13 154/8 17/3 184/4 I unsure [1] 241/14
transcripts [1] try [12] 55/25 99/6 IUKEF [1] 122/2 184/8 196/10 203/25 Iuntenable [1] 130/17
119/16 101/25 103/12 111/12} UKGI [36] 60/16 208/7 219/11 230/23 I until [29] 13/22 36/12!
transform [2] 145/10I 111/22 112/20 112/20) 64/17 89/14 91/24 I 230/24 237/18 243/23) 48/24 48/24 55/10
145/13 179/9 209/11 233/19 I 92/3 93/3 93/6 93/22 Iunderstandably [2] I 80/15 80/21 81/2
transformation [9] [23/19 94/7 94/9 120/22 181/2 181/18 81/10 81/14 83/12
Toe O1/d ears 14/4 Itrying [32] 6/16 18/2 I 120/23 121/11 121/12I understanding [21] I 95/15 96/1 102/17
4146/3 146/17 147/15 I 31/5 49/12 68/22 90/7I 123/20 125/14 125/23I 26/8 55/17 56/15 109/1 130/9 137/8
4150/7 154/1 91/7 91/9 91/19 94/15I 126/9 126/20 126/23 I 60/13 71/18 72/14 I 139/1 144/22 154/25
transition [2] 57/6 I 98/4 102/13 109/13 I 127/2 129/20 129/22 I g2/6 133/15 149/13 I 155/19 160/12 230/17
10/3 115/3 117/8 120/16 I 129/24 130/7 130/13 I 184/15 185/9 192/6 I 230/20 243/4 244/10
transparency [4] 122/15 125/16 127/3 I 130/22 130/24 130/25) 195/2 201/11 201/12 I 244/14 244/16 247/3
Bal1g 198/24 s06I7 I 127/10 128/17 137/21] 134/3 131/10 132/15 I 201/13 207/18 212/6 I unvarnished [2]
32/9 138/16 138/18 144/4 I 133/2 134/24 136/12 I 215/9 215/13 228/7 I 131/21 132/16
transparent [4] 68/11 165/7 169/11 197/3 I 168/17 understood [2] 83/15] unwelcome [1] 56/24
107/7 197/8 204/19 I 197/8.236/3 236/10 ultimate [3] 5/7 105/6) 148/15 unworthy [1] 62/24
transparently [1] 240/23 169/18 undertake [1] 100/11] up [97] 3/5 5/23 6/10
204/14 Tuesday [2] 127/15 Iultimately [4] 4/12 [undertaken [2] 12/16I 7/1 12/23 14/25 15/20
transpire [1] 198/20 I 129/5 5/11 10/24 18/13 199/25 19/8 21/11 22/20
trap [2] 52/21 53/4 turn [28] 2/7 16/4 —_Iunable [2] 129/2 undertaking [1] 23/10 24/21 29/1 32/4
trauma [4] 163/6 20/15 25/24 45/4 216/7 193/25 32/13 35/11 37/5 41/1
163/18 164/13 228/4 I 54/24 60/6 67/8 79/2 Iunacceptable [1] _[ unexplained [6] 47/11 50/11 52/25
travel [1] 73/16 81/22 95/1 95/4 205/19 178/22 179/1 179/3 I 53/4 56/20 57/19 60/7I
travelling [1] 117/10 I 105/15 115/24 127/11 unclear [3] 125/14 I 179/4 180/5 180/5 I 61/9 67/8 68/23 71/12
Treasury [36] 8/22 I 127/13 129/4 141/7 151/20 229/12 unfair [2] 23/25 71/20 74/10 74/17
9/3 9/7 9/18 10/4 10/5 178/6 178/15 180/19 Iunconscionable [1] I 138/7 75/22 80/18 81/4 82/8,
10/15 10/18 10/22 183/12 205/5 215/20 I 31/11 unfairly [1] 138/22 I 83/11 83/16 85/3 86/4
41/9 12/5 12/10 13/23I 219/25 237/18 237/22I unconscious [1] unfortunate [2] 53/17] 87/23 89/9 89/13 95/4I
14/3 14/4 14/6 80/22 I 238/1 Bo/12 205/8 98/4 10/8 105/15
96/2 96/18 98/2 turned [4] 61/17 uncovered [1] unfortunately [2] 106/18 107/6 107/10
101/21 105/17 109/5 I 112/24 181/20 237/15] 195/23 29/20 216/6 107/14 111/18 114/18
409/7 111/4 111/4 [turning [4] 128/3 under [36] 3/24 6/15 I unified [1] 60/10 118/23 127/13 128/3
4119/4 111/25 1112/5 I 129/13 141/3 145/2 I 6/22 10/24 17/17 unions [1] 68/1 129/4 129/13 130/2
4112/7 134/12 150/2 ITussell [1] 223/2 19/20 19/23 25/16 —_I unique [4] 2/15 15/17] 132/20 134/19 136/5
4150/2 156/10 165/19 Ie [54] 1/13 2/5 26/8 37/7 38/8 52/9 I 35/16 35/24 4136/9 141/7 142/1
17215 6/11 7/6 18/20 26/1 I 52/11 54/2 56/2 56/9 I Unit [2] 217/17 145/3 147/18 148/23
Treasury's [1] 29/14 33/19 38/12 I 60/4 72/20 80/19 217/20 148/24 151/22 153/13
112/13 41/24 48/13 54/15 I 85/11 92/3 100/12 __I Unite [1] 68/1 155/13 157/2 157/6
treat [1] 123/23 55/7 71/7 72/18 75/14] 100/12 132/22 134/18] United [2] 39/2 168/21 174/13 176/15
treated [3] 138/13 I 78/15 82/3 84/16 142/11 142/14 142/15] 243/13 178/5 185/20 187/13
138/16 150/19 84/17 84/17 84/18 I 151/18 152/13 153/24I universal [3] 145/20 I 191/24 197/5 200/11
treating [1] 62/23 I 86/7 86/25 87/1 87/15] 157/22 158/17 183/15) 146/20 154/5 200/17 201/2 206/19
treatment [2] 19/15 I 94/14 101/19 124/12 I 211/1 223/9 unkind [1] 109/20 I 213/17 216/3 216/10
104/23 124/21 125/3 147/21 Iunder-claimed [1] _ Iunknown [2] 183/22 I 216/19 217/24 218/18
tremendous [1] 44/6 I 1522 152/9 1583/2. I 19/23 184/1 222/7 232/11 236/18
Tribunal [1] 1388 I 162/21 173/10 175/12I Under-Secretary [2] Iunknowns [4] 183/22) 239/22 240/5
tried [4] 7/15/15 I 183/8 188/11 188/13 I 3/24 80/19 unless [5] 45/4 51/10I update [6] 36/7 44/15)
197/4 208/16 193/22 199/2 208/1 Iunder-settlements 51/17 112/7 117/14 I 44/25 107/22 136/23
tritaterat [1] 191/1 I 210/2211/25 214/13 I [1] 19/20 unlikely [1] 19/17 I 184/10
triumph [4] 104/2 215/1 223/4 224/18 underlines [1] 49/8 unlock [1] 60/9 updated [8] 44/11
trouble [4] 70/8 225/13 225/16 228/23I underlying [2] 12/25 Iunpack [1] 152/24 I 83/22 83/24 84/6
98/20 101/20 110/6 I 230/10 15/22 unpaid [1] 100/2 117/15 215/25 216/16
true [8] 2/11 78/25 Itwo-page [1] 152/2 Iunderpin [1] 145/16 Iunquestionably [1] I 217/1
79/14 130/22 13716 ItyPe [4] 42/16 138/8 I underpinning [1] 202/16 updates [5] 85/24
238/25 241/19 181/7 unreliability [3] 143/7 228/14 229/25
(103) transactions - updates
INQ00001205
INQ00001205
U Vv 145/15 145/16 145/21I volumes [1] 8/6 112/18 112/19 113/9
updates... [1] 231/15 I vaguely [1] 82/12 146/3 147/11 147/20 Ivoluntary [1] 223/24 I 116/5 119/22 119/22
updating [1] 181/24 Ivalidity [1] 184/2 151/14 155/3 155/3 w 124/3 127/3 131/6
155/5 158/8 161/24 137/20 207/19 228/1
upfront [1] 19/23 valuable [1] 28/25
upgraded [1] 237/23 Ivalue [26] 16/16
uploaded [1] 2/16 16/18 18/9 19/5 19/13)
upon [6] 16/14 28/15 I 20/2 21/15 98/2 101/5
68/3 168/6 177/9 101/8 108/7 108/9
238/4 108/12 108/21 110/16)
163/1 165/16 165/25 Iwait [14] 87/19 87/22I watch [1] 95/21
166/23 168/9 168/13 I 95/15 95/16 102/16 Iwatching [1] 113/21
169/14 170/2 170/8 109/1 115/19 160/11 Iway [94] 6/20 7/11
170/9 170/18 171/13 I 230/20 243/4 244/9 11/7 12/8 14/10 18/22)
173/6 173/25 174/5 I 244/9 244/14 244/16 I 22/13 23/20 27/14
urge [2] 168/6 173/15] 110/17 111/23 11/6 I 17517 175/24 176/1 waiting [5] S5/20 I 32/4 32/14 32/19
urgency [2] 113/14 I 112/24 114/15 142/17 180/1 180/1 184/3 32/21 35/24 36/24
113/15 150/3 165/18 166/8 187/2 187/2 188/21 230/17 38/17 41/7 41/20 47/1
189/9 189/16 193/24 Iwaiving [1] 24/22 47/1 55/15 55/25 57/3
urgent [3] in 6 m4 vain att) 63/1 197/8 197/8 198/5 IWaldon [1] 80/14 —_I 62/19 64/1 64/22 69/4
urgently [1] 141/3 vanilla [7] gaii1__ I 19/2 199/2 206/8 walked [3] 56/25 I 75/25 76/23 7/4
URN [1] 78/19 434/13-131/16 13211 I 206/8 206/13 206/20 I 57/16 212/1 79/17 82/19 87/3 88/6
206/22 207/24 209/17IWalton [4] 190/2 I 89/7 95/11 97/9 97/17!
i 211/2 211/14 212/8 I 191/19 217/25 218/5 I 97/19 98/5 98/20
or ore fons ‘ovr pay teu 212/20 212/20 213/19Iwant [71] 1/14 6/4 I 99/14 101/19 102/22
46/1 47/3 72/13 78/6 I 223/7 213/22 218/9 218/9 I 8/9 17/15 17/17 18/7 I 109/16 109/20 109/22!
81/10 81/23 95/3 _Ivast [1] 178/16 218/13 218/13 218/14] 18/14 18/22 18/24 _I 1140/3 110/9 110/13
H 218/16 21/1 221/2 I 23/20 28/8 28/20 31/7I 111/5 112/9 114/4
100/22 105/13 111/25I vehicle [5] 34/19 28120 286 26/20
113/14 115/17 119/4 I 35/5 39/21 76/22 (I 24/7 2286/1 226/17 4114/5 114/13 114/24
129/17 135/2 135/21 I 241/17 228/21 228/25 228/25) 40/25 40/25 44/18 I 115/24 128/25 130/18
139/11 140/10 141/6 Ivein [1] 187/5 229/22 230/22 230/23] 57/8 57/9 59/1 59/5 I 131/2 131/17 131/18
us [56] 2/23 10/7 132/17 136/22 136/23)
" 231/15 246/17 68/15 68/18 71/14 I 132/11 137/14 140/20
tee eaos soars verpatim [2] 118/16 I ability [1] 142/10 I 73/2 73/16 73/22 76/1] 146/15 147/2 150/9
4173/5 17616 185/11. [verify [2] 21312 [Viable [2] 156/8 76/2 95/20 98/8 98/9 I 159/2 162/11 167/11
49012 196721 196/22 13NG 158/13 99/14 114/23 114/23 I 167/23 172/3 172/8
197/13 199/1 199/2 Iversion [6] 83/22 IVice [1] 175/19 taal t22i2t 123/13) 172/18 180/7 184/24
victim [4] 190/20 I 127/6 127/7 131/20 I 1851/1 195/6 197/23
192/11 193/8 204/10 I 132/5 135/20 137/3_ I 198/1 207/21 217/7
BOSIT 2aslt7 29916, Iversions [1] 212114 {Victims [2] 21919 I 138/12 140r7 147/20 I 22013 221/15 22919
229/8 230/22 237/18 Iversus [3] 89/21 20/5 14/6 148/15 150/17 I 229/10 229/11 229/15
53014 Noale Da/16 view [53] 17/4 17/8 I 152/21 161/3 162/21 I 231/5 231/9 236/3
use [15] 92/25 94/2 very rea} 1/21 1/24 I 21/25 24/24 27/12 I 165/22 166/18 167/23) 239/14 242/10
114/11 175/13 184/24] 2/44 4/3 4/20 5/2 6/4 I 22/17 32/19 38/7 168/14 17/4 17714 Iways [5] 6/24 55/8
185/20 198/20 19419 I alto 1971 tal? sont I 38/15 52/13 53/10 I 198/17 212/24 220/28) 87/9 100/7 215/10
210/7 212/24 213/19 I 24/18 24/19 27/1 72/9 98/9 100/19 I 24/7 226/12 229/11 Iwe [624]
24712 219/12 234/15 I 27/25 28/1 28/6 2e/9 I 102/19 103/5 108/18 I 229/19 231/1 236/5 I we'd [9] 23/7 34/24
S308 3B 30/5 gato I 111/22 113/11 124/16] 238/21 36/3 135/22 139/2
weed [13] 55/19 cers ayoo day I 125/11 125/12 125/13I wanted [26] 51/3 I 140/22 225/5 231/1
1099 179/11 19116 I a125.42/10 43/13 I 126/22 126/25 12716 I 74/17 87/5 87/17 II 240/7
194/20 195/13 206/3 I 45/2 45/23 46/10 50/9] 131/11 134/11 132/16) 88/24 89/6 89/7 93/8 Iwerll [26] 7/5 7/9 8/17
213/14 213/20 213/24] 50/15 52/4 52/10 53/7I 134/23 144/14 145/12I 95/12 96/21 95/22 I 13/1 14/2 69/8 70/15
Sta/S 21413 21710 I S4/19 S711 S7/1 seyio} 146/17 150/8 154/14 I 102/25 108/12 109/24] 77/24 123/23 137/4
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eet eh oaett 246/18 186/3 188/8 188/18 I 120/14 121/6 121/17 I 91/6 91/24 92/14 94/4}
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32/24 33/17 33/18 234/13 159/21 164/7 166/17 I 113/12 113/14 114/6
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36/11 38/2 38/3 38/10) 6/21 17/13 20/6 20/12) 172/10 172/24 177/2 I 119/19 121/4 122/16
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38/18 38/19 39/7 29/23 30/25 34/8 180/2 184/11 184/15 I 1314/9 132/3 132/5
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73/20 74/6 80/22 81/3I 76/2 76/7 77/6 79/25 I 240/20 241/14 242/22) 144/18 145/16 146/5
Wednesday [1] 30/21
week [7] 51/11
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127/15 184/10 244/1
week's [1] 13/9
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184/17
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weight [2] 162/7
162/8
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OC Sa aw aoe 104/1 106/9 110/12 I 128/25 131/14 132/14I 22/10 26/13 27/19 156/8 157/1 157/3
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129/1 129/2 129/22 I 159/24 160/18 160/21I 65/21 88/24 101/9 176/16 177/24 180/15)
130/2 130/7 130/10 I 164/10 165/22 167/3 I 112/11 112/11 119/20] 182/9 182/16 183/19
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(105) we're... - which
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why [54] 5/20 7/19 I 190/24 191/11 192/2 IWITN11470100 [1] 205/3 222/23 223/9
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2715 119/4 121/8 125/1 I 210/19 210/25 211/4 I 2/14 2/20 52/23 52/23Iworker [2] 214/17
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207/4 241/7 241/10 I 242/20 245/3 245/9 I 171/6 173/11 174/9 I 245/14
414/21 115/6 243/4 243/18 244/9 I 245/14 245/23 246/7 I 174/10 174/13 174/15) works [7] 85/20 92/9
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16/24 17/10 20/10 IWidening [1] 11/13 IWILLIAMS [5] 75/3 I 178/1 180/11 191/10 Iworkstreams [1]
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93/15 93/19 93/22 16/11 17/19 17/23 42/6 44/13 50/24 193/25 202/14 230/12Iworst [2] 108/18
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208/23 211/11 214/11
214/11 215/7 215/16
217/24 218/3 225/11
225/12 225/21 226/8
226/8 226/18 226/22
226/24 226/24 227/3
227/5 227/5 227/8
227/20 227/25 228/7
228/10 228/12 228/13
232/13 233/23 234/19
234/19 235/4 235/15
241/5 242/6 243/18
244/22 244/24 245/5
245/18 245/22
yet [10] 1/6 21/13
24/23 48/16 48/21
137/20 147/18 161/3
175/8 209/1
you [893]
you don't [1] 233/11
you'd [8] 29/13 50/9
69/12 111/10 118/12
124/24 125/16 227/15
you'll [20] 46/9 54/22
58/22 65/24 83/16
83/18 84/4 84/16
91/17 104/5 104/6
106/13 107/1 118/23
140/7 157/8 162/20
167/3 167/18 189/19
you're [45] 17/13
17/20 18/14 24/10
27/22 41/6 45/23
45/25 56/9 58/23 69/1
69/7 72/2 73/2 102/4
103/17 108/13 121/1
122/24 140/12 140/14:
140/15 143/20 147/24
157/5 157/22 160/4
163/25 172/13 178/7
183/8 185/7 186/14
188/3 188/23 196/8
226/22 227/3 232/17
235/3 235/10 236/7
238/4 241/24 242/16
you've [38] 4/21
27/10 29/3 33/12
34/21 47/1 49/2 53/6
56/6 67/10 78/15
81/18 86/21 120/16
136/9 155/7 157/18
157/23 162/4 162/22
163/12 176/18 197/22
199/14 206/20 211/18
230/16 230/16 230/18
231/6 236/1 239/6
239/17 245/13 246/1
246/4 246/5 246/6
YouGov [4] 178/6
178/7 236/12 236/13
Young [1] 184/25
your [164] 1/21 2/9
2/11 2/20 3/6 4/1 8/21
8/22 8/24 13/12 15/24
17/3 22/25 24/24 26/6
26/20 28/5 29/4 33/12
38/7 42/14 42/19
44/11 45/22 50/9 52/1
56/1 56/2 56/3 63/4
64/3 75/11 75/15
78/13 78/18 78/20
78/25 79/2 79/10
79/14 81/24 82/3 82/6
82/8 86/3 86/14 95/3
96/5 99/6 101/7 102/8
103/22 104/9 104/11
104/18 105/13 105/14:
106/15 107/2 107/23
108/16 111/5 115/22
116/1 116/5 116/7
118/9 118/15 120/2
123/14 124/23 125/17
132/19 134/9 134/17
134/21 140/3 140/5
141/6 142/23 145/1
145/12 147/21 147/22
148/16 150/8 151/22
152/1 152/11 153/9
155/14 155/19 157/9
157/14 157/15 157/16)
157/17 157/18 157/20)
162/4 162/7 163/13
164/19 165/18 167/17)
168/14 169/15 171/5
174/15 175/14 175/5
175/25 176/19 179/14)
180/18 183/1 184/5
190/23 191/20 192/2
194/24 195/9 195/17
198/18 200/11 200/11
200/12 200/17 201/11
202/16 203/25 204/25
205/3 205/5 206/1
208/15 209/19 212/8
212/22 212/25 216/6
216/8 217/8 219/6
220/19 221/10 222/4
224/20 226/13 227/15
228/18 228/19 228/20
228/22 231/12 231/16
234/24 235/3 237/12
241/25 244/14
yours [2] 55/18
109/18
yourself [4] 182/19
182/24 192/13 231/7
yourselves [1] 41/7
Zeros [2] 188/12
188/13
(107) written... - zeros