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MINUTE
Working Group for the Initial Complaint Review and Case Mediation Scheme
14 January 2015
MATRIX CHAMBERS
Attendees
Sir Anthony Hooper (Chair)
Alan Bates (JFSA)
Ron Warmington (Second Sight)
Chris Holyoak (Second Sight)
lan Henderson (Second Sight)
Angela Van Den Bogerd (Post Office)
Chris Aujard (Post Office)
Patrick Bourke (Post Office)
Belinda Crowe (Post Office)
Tom Wechsler (Post Office)
Agenda
1. Minutes of 8th December meeting
2. Message from Alan Bates
3. Scheduling of proposed face to face meetings in 2015
4. Structured Discussion
5. Standing case agenda:
5.1Priority Cases
5.2 Bankruptcy Cases
5.3 Post Office Investigation Progress
5.4 Cases with Second Sight to review PO investigation reports
5.5 Cases Second Sight have reported on
5.6 Cases where the Working Group has made mediation recommendation
5.7 Queries from applicants/advisors
5.8 AOB
6. Cases for decision:
a) Second Sight do not recommend mediation:
M017, M116
b) Second Sight recommend mediation and POL does not agree:
M001, M041, M046, M090, M120,
c) Second Sight recommend deferred mediation:
N/A
d) Second Sight recommend mediation and POL agree:
M008, M025, M032, M036, M067, M121, M132, M135
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e) Second Sight recommend mediation, POL agrees, but Second Sight recommend mediation is
deferred pending Part Two report:
M024, M034, M051, M059, M133
Apologies
Apologies had been received from Kay Linnell and Andy Parsons.
Chris Aujard introduced Patrick Bourke to the Working Group. Patrick was attending the meeting to assist
continuity in the absence of Andy Parsons.
1. Minutes of 8" December meeting
Kay Linnell had suggested an amendment to the minutes of the last meeting about the time JFSA needed
to consider cases where Second Sight did not recommend mediation. Chris Holyoak suggested a small
number of amendments relating to the scheduling of cases. All amendments were agreed.
Action: Secretariat to amend the minutes of December’s minutes in line with Kay and Chris’s
suggestions.
2. Message from Alan Bates
Alan Bates had sent an email to the Secretariat on 8 January suggesting that the Working Group meeting
should be cancelled pending a response from the Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Employment
Relations and Consumer Affairs to the recent Adjournment Debate in Westminster Hall and JFSA’s
subsequent letter to her. Alan explained that he hoped for significant changes on following the Minister's
response and consequently he did not wish to be involved in making decisions within the Working Group.
His principal concern was the 2 cases scheduled for discussion where Second Sight had not recommended
mediation (agenda item 6a).
Chris Aujard said that Post Office had been keen for the meeting to take place in order that progress could
be made on other agenda items as well as individual cases.
The Chair welcomed Alan’s clarification of his email and said that given Post Office had expressed a wish
for the meeting to go ahead and as a result he had decided that it should. He asked for further clarification
that Alan was content for the Working Group to discuss cases where Second Sight had recommended
cases for mediation but Post Office had voted against (agenda item 6b). Alan said that, notwithstanding his
ongoing view that this was not the role of the Working Group, he accepted that the discussion could take
place although he would not take part in it.
3. Scheduling of proposed face to face meetings in 2015
The Secretariat had circulated a list of potential dates for Working Group meetings in the first half of the
year. All members of the Working Group were available on the proposed dates for February, April and
May. However, some members of the Working Group were not available for the proposed dates for March
and June.
Action: Secretariat to schedule Working Group meetings for 13 February, 16 April and 14 May; and
to circulate alternative dates for meetings in March and June.
4. Structured Discussion
Following the discussion at the last Working Group, the Secretariat had circulated a paper setting out a
proposal for how applicants could be offered a “structured discussion” in some cases where, for example,
Second Sight had described their application as weak and the Working Group did not consider them
suitable for mediation. The Chair said that, if agreed, this would offer 3 possible outcomes for the Working
Group to consider as opposed to the current choice between mediation or not, specifically Working Group
members could vote:
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¢ in favour of mediation;
¢ against mediation but in favour of a structured discussion; or
e against mediation and a structured discussion.
The following points were made in discussion:
«this option was already available within the Scheme and Second Sight had used a similar
formulation in a number of CRRs;
« it was helpful to have greater definition of how a discussion might be structured;
eit was also helpful to have an alternative means of resolution in cases where, for example,
applicants had made significant mistakes; and
e there should be a means for applicants to have their case looked at again if significant new
information comes to light through a structured discussion.
The Working Group agreed to the proposed approach to a structured discussion subject to one additional
element. The Chair asked Post Office to consider allowing applicants, via their advisors, to refer their case
back to the Working Group in the circumstances where significant new facts or information came to light
through a structured discussion. In these circumstances the Chair would use his casting vote to determine
whether the case should proceed to mediation. Post Office agreed.
Action: Secretariat to amend the proposal in line with the Working Group’s decision and draw up a
document for applicants setting out the terms of a structured discussion.
The Chair asked the Post Office to consider whether a structured discussion might be offered to the
applicants in the two cases where the Post Office had declined mediation following a Working Group
decision. Post Office agreed to consider the issue.
Action: Post Office to consider offering a structured discussion to the applicants in cases M015 and
M030.
Additional Agenda Item: Update on Part Two Report
The Chair asked Second Sight to provide an update on progress in completing their Part Two report. lan
Henderson reported that:
e Second Sight had issued 97 questions to Post Office on 9 December 2014;
e Post Office had replied on 7 January;
¢ Post Office’s response had:
© answered 64 questions, providing new information;
© suggested 22 questions were disproportionately wide;
© suggested 7 questions were out of scope; and
© sought clarification on 4 questions.
« Second Sight and Post Office had met on 9 January to discuss Post Office’s response and made
further progress; and
¢ in his assessment, they remained on course to complete the report by the end of March.
The Chair asked if Post Office was able to answer the question on suspense accounts that had been posed
for several months. lan reported that the information had not yet been provided. The Chair asked that this
be addressed as a matter of urgency and suggested that Post Office arrange a meeting between Second
Sight and Post Office finance staff to do so. This was agreed.
Action: Post Office to arrange a meeting with Second Sight to discuss suspense accounts.
lan reported that there were also issues with a number of other questions including:
e the provision of emails covering a year (2008) from all staff based in Bracknell;
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¢ issues around branch closure; and
¢ the provision of evidence of any criticism of Post Office in any prosections.
lan said that Post Office had suggested that the first two questions were too wide and that they were not
aware of any issues relating to the third but were unable to prove this was the case.
Chris Aujard said that Post Office were prepared to answer any question that related to a case in the
Scheme in order that the Part Two Report should allow CRRs to be completed and assist with mediation.
The Chair said that the Part Two report was intended to address whether there is an issue with Horizon so
that it might assist applicants in understanding how a loss may be incurred. It was essential that this was a
completed by the end of March. Looking at the specific questions posed in the discussion, he agreed that
the first two questions were too wide and asked Second Sight to narrow their questions. Where Post Office
were unable or unwilling to answer a question Second Sight should say so. This was agreed.
Action: Second Sight to narrow the scope of their question on access to emails from staff based in
Bracknell, and branch closure.
Action: Second Sight to complete their Part Two Report by end March 2015.
5. Standing Agenda
5.1 Priority cases
Case No. I Status
Final report originally received 18 September, revised version received 23
Mos2 September. Second Sight awaiting further information from POL.
M073 Final CRR received 21 October. Second Sight to resubmit Final CRR
M086 POIR finalised 04 December 2014. Due date for Draft CRR 16 January 2015
POIR finalised 18 November 2014. Due date for delivery of Draft CRR 09
M119 January 2015.
Belinda Crowe reported that Second Sight had uploaded the draft CRR on case M119 on 13 January.
5.2 Bankruptcy cases
Case No. I Status
SS Final report received 18 September. Second Sight reviewed in light of
Moot Working Group discussion of 17 October. See agenda item 6.b
M029 SS Final report received 18 September. Second Sight to resubmit Final CRR
M032 SS Final report received 15 November. See agenda item 6.d
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Case No. I Status
M036 Final CRR received 03 December. See agenda item 6.d
M069. PO investigation received 11 November. Draft CRR due 30 January
M081 PO investigation received 22 December. Draft CRR due 03 April
Mos9 PO investigation received 18 November. Draft CRR due 06 February
M100 Draft CRR received 31 December. Final due 23 January
M118 PO investigation received 16 October. POL considering additional information
M122 Draft CRR received 14 December
M128 PO investigation on-going, report due by 14 January
M150 PO investigation received 22 December. Draft CRR due 24 April
Angela Van Den Bogerd said that new evidence had been presented by the applicant in case M118 and
that consequently Post Office wished to review the POIR to check whether any changes were required. A
6 week extension was agreed.
5.3 Post Office Investigation Progress
i) Overdue cases
M128, M141, M148, M149
Belinda Crowe reported that the POIR in case M141 had been uploaded on 13 January. The remaining
reports were expected by the end of the week.
5.4 Cases with Second Sight to review Post Office Investigation Reports
i) New scheduling to note
Case No. Date passed to SS SS planned scheduled delivery date
M044, 12 December 2014 13 March 2015
M047 18 December 2014 20 March 2015
M061 23 December 2014 05 April 2015
M070 24 December 2014 10 April 2015
Moso 15 December 2014 20 March 2015
Most 22 December 2014 03 April 2015
Mos2 22 December 2014 10 April 2015
M084 15 December 2014 20 March 2015
Mo86 04 December 2014 16 January 2015
moss 12 December 2014 13 March 2015
™mo94 12 December 2014 13 March 2015
Mo96 04 December 2014 03 March 2015
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Mo98 20 November 2014 13 February 2015
M102 23 December 2014 10 April 2015
M106 04 December 2014 06 March 2015
M110 05 December 2014 06 March 2015
M129 18 December 2014 27 March 2015
M134 24 December 2014 17 April 2015
M138 23 December 2014 17 April 2015
M144, 22 December 2014 17 April 2015
M146 23 December 2014 03 April 2015
M150 22 December 2014 24 April 2015
ii) Overdue cases
Date passed to
SS planned scheduled
Case No. ss ., SS revised scheduled
delivery date delivery date
M040 12 September Drafts being held pending
2014 31 October 2014 receipt of legal files
M077 12 September 07 November 2014 Drafts being held pending
2014 receipt of legal files
5.5 Cases that Second Sight have reported on
Case SS draft report Deadline for SS final report due SS Final Report WG decision
No. issued comments completed
Second Sight
04 September rewriting theirCRR I 18September I See agenda
Moo1 I 17 July 2014 2014 following WG 2014 item 6.b
meeting of 17/10
Second Sit have [review ight of
moog I 14 September 19 September rewriting their CRR I itted 07 Working Group
2014 2014 following WG . .
meeting of 17/10 November discussion of 14
2014 November
Moos I 24 October 2014 I 35 Qctober 2014 I 6 November 2014 I 28 November I See agenda
2014 item 6.d
Second Sight to
review light of
Mott I 29 September 07 October 2014 I 24 October 2014 23 October Working Group
2014 2014 . -
discussion of 14
November
Second Sight to
review in light
26 September 23 October of Working
M013 2014 07 October 2014 24 October 2014 2014 Group
discussion of 14
November
15 September 25 September 05 October See agenda
M017 I 2014 2014 02 October 2014 I ao14 item 6.a
Second Sight to
15 September 24 October review in light
M018 2014 10 October 2014 17 October 2014 2014 of Working
Group
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discussion of 14
November
07 November 14 December See agenda
M024 2014 04 December 2014 I 12 December 2014 2014 item 6.e
13 November 26 November 03 December See agenda
M025 I 2014 2014 02 December 2014 I 494 item 6.
28 November
M027 2014 - - - -
Second Sight to
review in light
10 September 18 September I of Working
M029 I 27 August 2014 2014 17 September 2014 2014 Group
discussion of 17
October
M032 I 16 October 2014 I 280ctober 2014 I 04 November 2014 I 12 November I See agenda
2014 item 6.d
10 November 15 December See agenda
M034 2014 9 December 2014 I 16 December 2014 2014 item 6.e
Second Sight to
resubmit Final
04 September 19 September I CRR following
M035 I 11 August 2014 2014 11 September 2014 2014 receipt of legal
documents
from POL
13 November 27 November 03 December See agenda
M036 2014 2014 05 December 2014 2014 item 6.d
Second Sight to
review in light
0S September 12 September 2014 I 14September I of Working
M039 I 27 August 2014 2014 2014 Group
discussion of 17
October
13 November 15 December See agenda
M041 2014 04 December 2014 I 12 December 2014 2014 item 6.d
M043 I 09 December 2014 I 30 December 2014 I 14 December 2014 I - -
24 November 06 January
M045 2014 09 December 2014 I 19 December 2014 2014 -
Mo46 I 7November 2014 I 31October 2014 I 28 November 2014 I 22November I See agenda
2014 item 6.d
Second Sight to
review in light
Mo4g I 03 October 2014 I 23 October 2014 I 30 October 2014 Bee pxtober of Working
Group
discussion of 14
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November
06 November
Mos1 I 27 October 2014 I 2014/Applicant 11 I 21 November 2014 I 02 December I See agenda
2014 item 6.e
November 2014
Second Sight to
review -
M052 I 28 July 2014 04 September 18 September 2014 I 18 September I siting legal
2014 2014 "
documentation
from POL
Second Sight to
Moss 28 October resubmit Final
05 October 2014 14 October 2014 21 October 2014 2014 CRR discussion
of 14 November
Second Sight to
review in light
14 November 19 November I of Working
M059 I 31 October 2014 2014 21 November 2014 2014 Group
discussion of 14
November
31 July 2014 I Second Sight to
Revised review in light
MO82 I 20 June 2014 22 July 2014 32 July 2014 version of Working
uploaded 23 . P ;
September discussion of 17
P October
Second Sight to
review in light
17 October 2014 -
Mo63 I 08 October 2014 Applicant 27 17 October 2014 10 November of Working
October 2014 2014 Group
discussion of 14
November
M064 I 11 January 2015 - . - -
Second Sight to
review in light
23 September 09 October 2014 08 October of Working
M065 2014 02 October 2014 2014 Group
discussion of 17
October
M067 I 19 October 2014 I 28 October 2014 I 04 November 2014 I 12 November I See agenda
2014 item 6.d
24 November 22 December
M068 2014 17 December 2014 I 09 January 2015 2014 -
14 December
M071 I 7 November 2014 I 09 December 2014 I 19 December 2014 2014 -
Second Sight
MO72 I 08 October 2014 I 17 October 2014 I 24 October 2014 - awaiting legal
documentation
from POL
M073 I 24 September 03 October 2014 24 October 2014 21 October Second Sight to
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2014 2014 resubmit Final
CRR
M074 I 22 December 2014 I - - - -
19 November
M087 2014 - - - -
Mos0 I 16 October 2014 I 28 October 2014 I 04 November 2014 I 28 November I See agenda
2014 item 6.b
Applicant has Applicant has
ue withdrawn
19 November extension. owing to ill
M091 I 31 October 2014 25 November 2014 I Deadline for
2014 health —See
comments has -
agenda item
not been 5.7(a)
agreed. :
M092 I 14 December 2014 I 30 December 2014 I 09 January 2015 - -
M095 I 7 November 2014 I 04 December 2014 I 12 December 2014 soa cember .
Second Sight
M097 I 10 October 2014 I 23 October 2014 I 30 October 2014 - awaiting legal
documentation
from POL
M101 I 11 January 2015 - - - -
M105 03 January 2015. - - - -
M108 I 31 December 2015 I - - - -
M109 I 11 January 2015 - - - .
POL - 23 October
2014 Applicant
M116 12 October 2014 requested 26 November 2014 25 November See agenda
th 2014 item 6.a
extension - 19'
November 2014
21 November 31 December See agenda
M120 2014 17 December 2014 I 26 December 2014 2014 item 6b
21 November 31 December See agenda
M121 2014 17 December 2014 I 26 December 2014 2014 item 6.d
M122 I 14 December 2014 I - - - -
M132 I 16 October 2014 I 28 October 2014 I 04 November 2014 I 13 November I See agenda
2014 item 6.d
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21 November 03 January See agenda
M133 2014 17 December 2014 I 26 December 2014 2014 item 6.e
13 November 19 November See agenda
M135 I 29 October 2014 2014 23 November 2014 2014 item 6.d
Belinda Crowe reported that:
e the applicant in case M091 has withdrawn from the Scheme owing to ill health;
« M055 — Post Office and the applicant has resolved the case outside the Scheme and it was now
closed;
« M059 - the reference above was incorrect and the case was actually listed under agenda item
6.e. for this meeting; and
«the Secretariat had been unable to contact the applicant in case M027. They proposed treating
this case in the same way as M115 ie inform their advisor that the case is considered closed
unless contact can be restored within lifetime of the Scheme when the Working Group may
consider the case again. This was agreed.
Action: The Secretariat to draft a letter to the applicant’s advisor in case M027 following the
precedent of case M115.
5.6 Cases where the Working Group has made mediation recommendation
Cases with CEDR awaiting mediation
M007, M014, M019, M031, M053, M093
Cases where applicant given choice of whether to mediate now or await Part 2:
M005, M021, M042, M078
Cases where either party have declined to mediate:
M015, M030 (both Post Office)
Cases where WG did not approve mediation:
M057, M076
Cases mediated:
M002, M006, M009, M022, M028, M054, M066, M079, M127, M143
Cases resolved prior to mediation:
M048, M126
5.7 Any other queries raised by Applicants / Advisors
- Letters from Mr De Nahlik regarding M064 and M074
The Working Group noted the content of Mr De Nahlik’s emails but also that they contained some
inaccuracies, notably on the treatment of cases with an associated criminal conviction.
Action: Secretariat to draft a letter to Mr De Nahlik acknowledging his messages and highlighting
the inaccuracies.
5.8 AOB
Scheduling of cases
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Chris Holyoak highlighted that:
e there were a number of cases where due dates for comments on draft CRRs were pending; and
e that Second Sight were awaiting an update on the provision of legal documents.
Belinda Crowe reported that many of the delays were caused by difficulties in making contact with
applicants. An update on the provision of legal files would be provided shortly.
Confidentiality
Chris Aujard said that at the outset of the Scheme all members of the Working Group had committed to
strict conditions of confidentiality. He asked if all members were still prepared to abide by those conditions.
This was agreed.
Alan Bates left the meeting.
6 Cases for decision:
a) Second Sight do not recommend mediation:
M017, M116
b) Second Sight recommend mediation and POL does not agree:
M001, M041, M046, MOO, M120,
c) Second Sight recommend deferred mediation:
NIA
d) Second Sight recommend mediation and POL agree:
M008, M025, M032, M036, M067, M121, M132, M135
e) Second Sight recommend mediation, POL agrees, but Second Sight recommend mediation is deferred
pending Part Two report:
M024, M034, M051, M059, M133
The Chair said that, in accordance with Alan Bates’s wish to await a response from the Minister to his letter
before discussing cases, the cases listed under agenda item 6a would be carried over to February's
meeting.
Action: Secretariat to schedule cases M017 and M116 for the Working Group meeting in February.
Under agenda item 6b, the Chair cast his vote in favour of deferred mediation in cases M001, M046, M0S0,
M120.
Action: Secretariat to pass cases M001, M001, M046, M090, M120 to CEDR along with the cases
listed under agenda items 6d and 6e.
The Chair said that he did not believe that case M041 was suitable for mediation but that a structured
discussion would be more appropriate. However, he would not finalise his decision until February's
meeting.
Action: Secretariat to note the Chair’s indicative decision and schedule a further discussion of case
M041 for February’s meeting.